RE: [WSG] [OT] users - IT literate?

2008-05-17 Thread Elizabeth Spiegel
Hi all

I can't agree that it's generational: a couple of years ago I was involve in
user testing for a site aimed at young people - 18 to 25 years old; daily
internet users.  A number weren't aware of the convention that a corporate
logo in the top left corner of the screen is almost always a home page link;
one who complained of the size of the text wasn't aware of the fact that she
could re-size it (of course it doesn't help that so many sites make this
more difficult than necessary).

For most tasks, most people look for a solution that one of my management
texts called 'satisficing': rather than keep looking for the best solution,
they stop when they get to one that is good enough.  When I was in IT
training, I would often lean over someone's shoulder and say 'why don't you
do it this way?' - some people would then change their practices but many
wouldn't - it was easier to keep doing whatever it was the way they were
used to.

The challenge for us as designers/builders is to build sites for the way
people really use the internet, not the way we wish they did!  At the same
time I'd like to think we take every opportunity to educate them - to let
them know that there are easier/better/more efficient ways of doing things.


Elizabeth Spiegel
Web editing
0409 986 158
GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001
www.spiegelweb.com.au 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Lecoat
Sent: Friday, 16 May 2008 8:27 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] [OT] users - IT literate?

On 16 May 2008, at 06:50, Matthew Pennell wrote:

 In my experience, a large proportion of computer/web users struggle  
 to understand online concepts that we expert users take for granted.  
 Many regular surfers have no idea how to interact with a scroll bar  
 - and there are lots of people who don't know how the address bar of  
 their browser works!

Matthew, my experience tallies with yours. At least half of the people  
I work with (I mean clients, not co-workers) are not very IT-savvy at  
all. It brings to mind the Blackadder line: I am one of these people  
who are quite happy
to wear cotton, but have no idea how it works.

In some extreme cases this seems to extend to an almost willful  
ignorance, as if they feel that learning how to operate their computer  
would somehow diminish them. It is certainly true that the older the  
client the more likely this seems to be -- although I would certainly  
not generalise too much as I know plenty of completely computer- 
literate 'silver surfers'. I find it frustrating when they stubbornly  
refuse to learn what the most basic controls are on their browser, but  
unless it has a negative impact on the project I generally ignore it.

In any case the evidence would suggest that it is a generational  
thing, and that should come as no surprise. As someone born at the  
back end of the 60s, I can understand it, because I personally find  
the more leading edge web technologies hard to keep up with - much  
more so than, say, people 15 years my junior who live and breathe that  
stuff.

It's a matter of degree, I guess. People absorb information at a  
fundamental level early in their lives, and I think that beyond a  
certain age they stop absorbing it quite so easily and have to work at  
*learning* it. That includes information about current technology. If  
a new technology comes out when you're in your 40s it's probably going  
to be harder for you to pick it up than for your 16 year old nephew.

The old chestnut about adults having to get their kids to programme  
the VCR for them are clichés, sure, but based on a lot of truth.

--
Rick Lecoat

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Re: [WSG] [OT] users - IT literate?

2008-05-17 Thread Matthew Pennell
On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 8:13 AM, Elizabeth Spiegel 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The challenge for us as designers/builders is to build sites for the way
 people really use the internet, not the way we wish they did!


Excellently put. :)

-- 

- Matthew


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[WSG] 5.3 Expansion of abbreviations and acronyms in a document

2008-05-17 Thread Lewis, Matthew


Unsure about best practice approach for acronym within a link, which  
may not be ether of these examples...


a href=http://.co.nz/rss/; title=Real Simple Syndication News  
FeedRSS News Feed/a


a href=http://.co.nz/rss/; acronym title=Real Simple  
SyndicationRSS/acronym News Feed/a




Many thanks

Matt


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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest

2008-05-17 Thread Nicola Clarke
Thank-you for your e-mail. I am currently out of the office, returning Monday 
26 May. 

I will respond to your e-mail upon my return. In the meantime, please forward 
any feedback to Jane Nolan and any urgent queries to my manager, Adam Hough. 

-HBA eMail Disclaimer: --
The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and 
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Re: [WSG] 5.3 Expansion of abbreviations and acronyms in a document

2008-05-17 Thread russ - maxdesign
 a href=http://.co.nz/rss/; acronym title=Real Simple
 SyndicationRSS/acronym News Feed/a

I'd go for something similar to your option 2:

a href=http://.co.nz/rss/;
abbr title=Rich Site SummaryRSS/abbr News Feed
/a

The advantage of using the abbr element instead of just the a is that
users can hover over the RSS and receive additional information.

Why an abbr instead of an acronym?

It comes down to personal opinion but RSS is actually an initialism not an
acroynm.

Initialisms
An abbreviation pronounced as the names of the individual letters formed
only from the initial letter of constituent words.

Acronyms
An acronym is defined as a WORD formed from the initial letters of a
multi-word name. 

Initialisms - like CSS or RSS - should be marked up as abbreviations - abbr.

HTH
Russ




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Re: [WSG] Accessibility for HTML Email

2008-05-17 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I'm guessing you don't actually administer a corporate size
spam-filtering 'solution' do you?  


I have spamassassin on the server, and thunderbird as client - and I 
rarely see spam make it through those and into my inbox. Does that count?


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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[WSG] Centering all items in a li

2008-05-17 Thread Darren Lovelock
Hi list,
 
I've been trying to find a solution that will allow me to vertically center
all the items in a li.
 
The big problems i've got are that the li's are a non-fixed height and are
floating to the left.
 
So that kills the negative
http://www.jakpsatweb.cz/css/css-vertical-center-solution.html positioning
method and the table-cell
http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/007/center#vertical  methods that I've
found whilst scouring the web.
 
Does anyone know a method that I can use that doesn't involve using tables?
 
Any help will be greatly appreciated!
 
Regards,
 
Darren Lovelock
Munky Online Web Design
http://www.munkyonline.co.uk http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/ 
T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893
 


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Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

2008-05-17 Thread Matt Fellows
A demo would be helpful, but have you tried something along the lines
of the following:

div id=footer
ul
  lia href=/link1Link1/a/li
  lia href=/link2Link2/a/li
 ...
/ul
/div

div#footer{text-align:center;}
div#footer ul li{display:inline;list-style-type:none; }

Cheers,

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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RE: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

2008-05-17 Thread Darren Lovelock
Hi Matt,

I'm trying to vertically align all the items inside an li.

This could be achieved with the valign of a table cell, but tables are not
an option!

The li's are floating left. I want the labels, inputs, p's etc to be
vertically aligned in their containing li.

This is one of the lists I'm using: 

ol
li class=elem
label for=dnameDisplay Name:/label
input type=text id=dname class=tinput /
/li
li class=desc
pInformation about preview box etc. If it is more than two
lines or ## characters link to./p
spana href=learn more/a/span
/li
/ol 

Hope it makes more sense now! 

Thanks.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Fellows
Sent: 17 May 2008 15:57
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

A demo would be helpful, but have you tried something along the lines of the
following:

div id=footer
ul
  lia href=/link1Link1/a/li
  lia href=/link2Link2/a/li
 ...
/ul
/div

div#footer{text-align:center;}
div#footer ul li{display:inline;list-style-type:none; }

Cheers,

--
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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RE: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

2008-05-17 Thread David Hucklesby
On Sat, 17 May 2008 16:45:05 +0100, Darren Lovelock wrote:
 Hi Matt,

 I'm trying to vertically align all the items inside an li.

 This could be achieved with the valign of a table cell, but tables are not an 
 option!

 The li's are floating left. I want the labels, inputs, p's etc to be 
 vertically aligned
 in their containing li.

 This is one of the lists I'm using:

 ol
 li class=elem
 label for=dnameDisplay Name:/label
 input type=text id=dname class=tinput /
 /li
 li class=desc
 pInformation about preview box etc. If it is more than two lines or ## 
 characters
 link to./p spana href=learn more/a/span /li /ol

 Hope it makes more sense now!


Nope.

Can't see why you'd put form elements in a list anyway. Perhaps you
could post an example, with tables if necessary, to show us what you intend?

Cordially,
David
--




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RE: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

2008-05-17 Thread Darren Lovelock
I'm trying to achieve the same as a table cell set with valign=middle but
with an li.

This would be the list elements in a table:
table
tr
td valign=middlelabel for=dnameDisplay Name:/label
input type=text id=dname 
 class=tinput //td
td valign=middlepInformation about preview 
 box etc. If it is more than two lines or ## characters link to./p 
 spana href=learn more/a/span/td
/tr
/table

The labels etc would be vertically aligned in the center of the td's.

Darren 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Hucklesby
Sent: 17 May 2008 22:31
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

On Sat, 17 May 2008 16:45:05 +0100, Darren Lovelock wrote:
 Hi Matt,

 I'm trying to vertically align all the items inside an li.

 This could be achieved with the valign of a table cell, but tables are not
an option!

 The li's are floating left. I want the labels, inputs, p's etc to be 
 vertically aligned in their containing li.

 This is one of the lists I'm using:

 ol
 li class=elem
 label for=dnameDisplay Name:/label input type=text id=dname 
 class=tinput / /li li class=desc pInformation about preview 
 box etc. If it is more than two lines or ## characters link to./p 
 spana href=learn more/a/span /li /ol

 Hope it makes more sense now!


Nope.

Can't see why you'd put form elements in a list anyway. Perhaps you could
post an example, with tables if necessary, to show us what you intend?

Cordially,
David
--




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Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

2008-05-17 Thread Ben Wong
Have you tried playing around with line-height?

On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Darren Lovelock
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm trying to achieve the same as a table cell set with valign=middle but
 with an li.

 This would be the list elements in a table:
 table
tr
td valign=middlelabel for=dnameDisplay Name:/label
 input type=text id=dname
 class=tinput //td
td valign=middlepInformation about preview
 box etc. If it is more than two lines or ## characters link to./p
 spana href=learn more/a/span/td
/tr
 /table

 The labels etc would be vertically aligned in the center of the td's.

 Darren

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of David Hucklesby
 Sent: 17 May 2008 22:31
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

 On Sat, 17 May 2008 16:45:05 +0100, Darren Lovelock wrote:
 Hi Matt,

 I'm trying to vertically align all the items inside an li.

 This could be achieved with the valign of a table cell, but tables are not
 an option!

 The li's are floating left. I want the labels, inputs, p's etc to be
 vertically aligned in their containing li.

 This is one of the lists I'm using:

 ol
 li class=elem
 label for=dnameDisplay Name:/label input type=text id=dname
 class=tinput / /li li class=desc pInformation about preview
 box etc. If it is more than two lines or ## characters link to./p
 spana href=learn more/a/span /li /ol

 Hope it makes more sense now!


 Nope.

 Can't see why you'd put form elements in a list anyway. Perhaps you could
 post an example, with tables if necessary, to show us what you intend?

 Cordially,
 David
 --




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-- 
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net


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Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

2008-05-17 Thread Matt Fellows
Sorry Darren - it was late an i was tired! Vertical/Horizontal, Left/Right...

I don't think there is a need to do anything too exciting, the
container of the list should just need a text-align:center.
Is this basically what you are after? I have made the div only 300px
wide so you get the wrapping effect which I think is what is causing
the grief.

div.container{text-align:center; width:300px}
div.container ol li{list-style-type:none; }

div class=container
ol
   li class=elem
   label for=dnameDisplay Name:/label
   input type=text id=dname class=tinput /
   /li
   li class=desc
   pInformation about preview box etc. If it is more than two
lines or ## characters link to./p
   spana href=learn more/a/span
   /li
/ol
/div

The list items will be centered. If you have multiple columns you can
just place them next to each other.
Or am i still missing something?

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

2008-05-17 Thread Adam Martin
For those suggesting line-height. I think that is a very bad idea, 
because if the line is more than 1 line, then the height will end up 
being number of lines x line-height. For example - setting line-height 
at 200px. 3 lines of text would make it 600px high with 200px between text.

Cheers
Adam

Matt Fellows wrote:

A demo would be helpful, but have you tried something along the lines
of the following:

div id=footer
ul
  lia href=/link1Link1/a/li
  lia href=/link2Link2/a/li
 ...
/ul
/div

div#footer{text-align:center;}
div#footer ul li{display:inline;list-style-type:none; }

Cheers,

  



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