Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
There are a number of ways to get tasks done on the intnernet. Some hard core programmers would use plain old C and CGI. As for PHP Standards, follow the manual and best practices. Get a book on design patterns, especially the one by the Gang Of Four, as these patterns can crossover to the majority of programming languages. There are also plenty of MVC (Model-View-Controller) frameworks such as cakePHP and Symphony. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5
I have had problems running FF2 on a machine also running FF3 - specifically, and fatally for me, FireBug wouldn't install cleanly in FF2 if I had FF3 running. I'd load FF3 in a vmware image, or maybe test it with an Ubuntu 8.04 live CD. Note that beta 5 at least is still rather unstable. I've managed to crash it semi-regularly - somewhere the combination of Gmail, Campfire, and Firebug (I have to run an alpha of Firebug to get FF3 support) makes the browser die. I'm not sure which of these is the actual culprit, or if it's some combination, but clicking on a folder in gmail, sometimes, kills the browser; and firebug itself often goes into la-la land. Release Candidate 1 is out now, so hopefully things will get more stable when Ubuntu picks it up, but at the moment it's a world of pain - at least for my configuration! - Korny On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2008/05/20 15:13 (GMT+1200) Paul Bennett apparently typed: Ack! Anyone else had horrible problems installing FF3? No, but ... My install crashes every time I open it, so I had to reinstall FF2.. I avoid installing applications whenever possible. In the case of unreleased Gecko products, it's more than just possible, it's often preferable. Get yourself an archive build instead of an installer build from http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/ and see if you have better luck. There's no reason you can't have both on the same machine at the same time, though an extra step or three are required to enable using both at the same time, and you're probably better off not using a profile previously used with FF3 to use with FF2. -- . . . . in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you . . . . Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Kornelis Sietsma korny at my surname dot com kornys at gmail dot com on google chat -- kornys on skype we do what we must, because we can *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
I haven't had time to look into other frameworks but make sure to check out Zend as well. It's at version 1.5.2. at this time and it has a nice built-in templating system. On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:05 AM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are a number of ways to get tasks done on the intnernet. Some hard core programmers would use plain old C and CGI. As for PHP Standards, follow the manual and best practices. Get a book on design patterns, especially the one by the Gang Of Four, as these patterns can crossover to the majority of programming languages. There are also plenty of MVC (Model-View-Controller) frameworks such as cakePHP and Symphony. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5
Korny Sietsma Release Candidate 1 is out now, so hopefully things will get more stable when Ubuntu picks it up, but at the moment it's a world of pain - at least for my configuration! Beta5 and RC1 have been rock-solid on my systems (WinXP). And, as far as I understand, RC1 is fairly feature complete (with regards to its rendering engine), unless some major howlers are reported in the next few weeks. From experience, the majority of instability / weird behaviour in these situations comes from reuse of an old profile...when jumping to a major new version, I'd always advise to start with a completely fresh profile to avoid any incompatibilities. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5
On 2008/05/20 18:27 (GMT+1000) Korny Sietsma apparently typed: I have had problems running FF2 on a machine also running FF3 - specifically, and fatally for me, FireBug wouldn't install cleanly in FF2 if I had FF3 running. Did you ever think to try closing the other long enough to get it to install? Have you been trying to use the same profile for multiple versions? Have you tried virgin profiles? Visit irc://moznet/#firefox or irc://moznet/#mozillazine or irc://moznet/#seamonkey and people who know what it takes will help you get it going. I'd load FF3 in a vmware image, or maybe test it with an Ubuntu 8.04 live CD. Absolutely unnecessary gross overkill. Release Candidate 1 is out now, so hopefully things will get more stable when Ubuntu picks it up, but at the moment it's a world of pain - at least for my configuration! I've been running various flavors of alpha beta Gecko products simultaneous with release versions of same cross-platform (Linux, OS/2 Win; adding OS X recently) for over 7 years. If you can't get it to work routinely, you're not correctly following directions, or have a general system problem. Using multiple versions does require the MOZ_NO_REMOTE=1 environment variable, or equivalent command line option, plus multiple profiles. Realize that SeaMonkey and Firefox are just different faces on the same rendering engine, so you can take the easy way out and just run the devel version of one and the release version of the other if following the multiple version instructions is somehow not doable for you. -- . . . . in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you . . . . Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
Thanks for all the tips folks, very useful. In response to Michael, I have just escaped the large corporate, global enterprise world that seems to fund much of the IT work done and in my experience most such organisations are only just now waking up to the concept and benefits of open source. My ex-organisation for example tended to code either in ASP or .NET for small / medium scale or some flavour of Java for portals and heavy transaction stuff so I had no experience or libraries of PHP. Upon my excape, pausing only to don my hopelessly optimistic hat I went looking for a PHP site; something similar to the sites we all use that show how semantic mark-up should be used; or how good quality CSS can make site look good. Even poor old JavaScript thanks to gentlemen ( I use the word carelessly) like Jeremy Keith are busy helping our communities to play nicely with the DOM; which left just the back-end. The problem is that right now unless we have one or two clearly signposted places where people can learn to do the right thing, young new programmers or even old f***s like me will get what help they can from the net and libraries, as I am sure you may have noticed such sites, books and courses are not always of the highest quality. Ian (Freelancing with a grin - ex Head Of Web Strategy BT Global Services) - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] PHP Standards I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE Why woul you think the good programmers spend their time and ASP or J2EE? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Designer wrote: I think that it's basically your responsibility Ian, in that there are many sources of snippets available and if you use them you just validate the generated code and put right what is wrong in the php. Then, you check for best practice too . . . Bob Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
Hey Ian, Sorry for coming in late in this thread, but I would like to recommend the php.net site and their mailing lists as well. I am a subscriber to a few of their lists and am just learning the language, but the people who post to the php-general list are some of the most knowledgeable people I have run across. There are a few of the core programmers that post to that list as well. I would highly recommend joining, and watching the list for a few days. Or jump right in and start working on a project. The most simple form of which is a simple Hello world! script. Do something like this: ?PHP $hi = Hello; $earth = World; $time = time(); $currentTime = date(H:i:s M-d-y, $time); echo $hi $earth! it is $currentTime; ? Just something that you could play with :) On May 20, 2008, at 5:35 AM, Ian Chamberlain wrote: Thanks for all the tips folks, very useful. In response to Michael, I have just escaped the large corporate, global enterprise world that seems to fund much of the IT work done and in my experience most such organisations are only just now waking up to the concept and benefits of open source. My ex-organisation for example tended to code either in ASP or .NET for small / medium scale or some flavour of Java for portals and heavy transaction stuff so I had no experience or libraries of PHP. Upon my excape, pausing only to don my hopelessly optimistic hat I went looking for a PHP site; something similar to the sites we all use that show how semantic mark-up should be used; or how good quality CSS can make site look good. Even poor old JavaScript thanks to gentlemen ( I use the word carelessly) like Jeremy Keith are busy helping our communities to play nicely with the DOM; which left just the back-end. The problem is that right now unless we have one or two clearly signposted places where people can learn to do the right thing, young new programmers or even old f***s like me will get what help they can from the net and libraries, as I am sure you may have noticed such sites, books and courses are not always of the highest quality. Ian (Freelancing with a grin - ex Head Of Web Strategy BT Global Services) - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] PHP Standards I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE Why woul you think the good programmers spend their time and ASP or J2EE? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Designer wrote: I think that it's basically your responsibility Ian, in that there are many sources of snippets available and if you use them you just validate the generated code and put right what is wrong in the php. Then, you check for best practice too . . . Bob Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424-9337 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe:
[WSG] Tag for quotes
Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag to use with quotes? These are actual comments made by folk during a show. For example: q pqLIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the market!/qbr / TECHNOGYM UK LTD/p or cite pciteLIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the market!/citebr / TECHNOGYM UK LTD/p Any help most appreciated. Thanks, Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes
Rob Enslin wrote: Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag to use with quotes? These are actual comments made by folk during a show. For example: q pqLIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the market!/qbr / TECHNOGYM UK LTD/p or cite pciteLIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the market!/citebr / TECHNOGYM UK LTD/p Any help most appreciated. Thanks, Rob Hi Rob, In this case I'd use the blockquote element personally eg. blockquote cite=www.technogym.com p LIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7 new products which our... /p citeTECHNOGYM UK LTD/cite /blockquote Alternatively use q to wrap the quote itself, and cite to mark up the source of the quote. The spec has some more examples: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 Regards, another Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes
On 20 May 2008, at 16:13, Rob Enslin wrote: Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag to use with quotes? These are actual comments made by folk during a show. You are quoting paragraphs, use blockquote. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes
On 20-May-08, at 8:43 PM, Rob Enslin wrote: Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag to use with quotes? The most appropriate tag to use is the blockquote element. I would mark up your content like so: blockquote pLIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the market!/p pciteTECHNOGYM UK LTD/cite/p /blockquote q The q element should be used for [...] short quotations (inline content) that don't require paragraph breaks. [1]. cite The cite element (or citation) is used to specify the source of the quote, and to use it to mark up a quote would be semantically incorrect. [2] Best, - Rahul. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes
That's pretty clear. Many thanks Robert, David and Rahul. 2008/5/20 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 20-May-08, at 8:43 PM, Rob Enslin wrote: Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag to use with quotes? The most appropriate tag to use is the blockquote element. I would mark up your content like so: blockquote pLIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the market!/p pciteTECHNOGYM UK LTD/cite/p /blockquote q The q element should be used for [...] short quotations (inline content) that don't require paragraph breaks. [1]. cite The cite element (or citation) is used to specify the source of the quote, and to use it to mark up a quote would be semantically incorrect. [2] Best, - Rahul. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Rob Enslin http://enslin.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2]. The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3]. It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML. Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading (h*n* class=structural) even just a simple strong class=structural, and if necessary, hide them by CSS I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com. Example: div id=main-nav strong class=structuralMain navigation/strong !-- or h*n*Main navigation/h*n* -- ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /div So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this: fieldset id=main-nav legend class=structuralMain navigation/legend ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /fieldset Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so, it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense. fieldset id=actions legend class=structuralYou can do the following/legend ul liaCreate/a/li liaDelete/a/li liaEdit/a/li /ul /fieldset Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers): 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a form? 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural labels enhance accessibility)? 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this? Thanks. Julián. [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/ [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928 [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Hello Julian, If you are unsure about what an HTML tag is there for, look up in the W3C specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET It is pretty clear to me there that fieldset element exists for the purpose of grouping form elements together, and not for other purposes. It aids accessibility and overall meaning of (larger) forms. Hence I would strongly argue that fieldset should not be used outside a form and should not be used for purposes of styling for we have CSS. Hope this helps. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com www.flexewebs.wordpress.com www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.facebook.com/pages/London/Flexewebs/11264349395 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2]. The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3]. It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML. Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading (h*n* class=structural) even just a simple strong class=structural, and if necessary, hide them by CSS I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com. Example: div id=main-nav strong class=structuralMain navigation/strong !-- or h*n*Main navigation/h*n* -- ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /div So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this: fieldset id=main-nav legend class=structuralMain navigation/legend ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /fieldset Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so, it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense. fieldset id=actions legend class=structuralYou can do the following/legend ul liaCreate/a/li liaDelete/a/li liaEdit/a/li /ul /fieldset Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers): 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a form? 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural labels enhance accessibility)? 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this? Thanks. Julián. [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/ [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928 [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
What if your fieldset is intended for an AJAX application? And thus will not require a form (as your data is not sent through the form, but is picked up by javascript)? Indeed, my opinion is that a fieldset should only contain form elements, but not necessarily be inside a form tag. I do disagree with Julián's approach. Also, if I may add, strong should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and only in a case where you have a strong point to make, and not a replacement for making bold text. Regards, Svip 2008/5/20 Jason Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello Julian, If you are unsure about what an HTML tag is there for, look up in the W3C specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET It is pretty clear to me there that fieldset element exists for the purpose of grouping form elements together, and not for other purposes. It aids accessibility and overall meaning of (larger) forms. Hence I would strongly argue that fieldset should not be used outside a form and should not be used for purposes of styling for we have CSS. Hope this helps. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com www.flexewebs.wordpress.com www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.facebook.com/pages/London/Flexewebs/11264349395 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2]. The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3]. It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML. Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading (hn class=structural) even just a simple strong class=structural, and if necessary, hide them by CSS I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com. Example: div id=main-nav strong class=structuralMain navigation/strong !-- or hnMain navigation/hn -- ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /div So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this: fieldset id=main-nav legend class=structuralMain navigation/legend ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /fieldset Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so, it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense. fieldset id=actions legend class=structuralYou can do the following/legend ul liaCreate/a/li liaDelete/a/li liaEdit/a/li /ul /fieldset Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers): 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a form? 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural labels enhance accessibility)? 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this? Thanks. Julián. [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/ [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928 [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Needless to say that your application should progressively enhancehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancementthrough the presentation layers. So, irrespective of what technology (or mix of technologies) you are using, the basic (X)HTML page should make total sense with everything (images, css, javascript and flash) switched off and nicely 'upgrade' as you add each new piece of technology to it. The basics always stay the same, hence fieldset ought to be inside a form as your page ought to work with JavaScript turned off. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 5/20/08, Svip [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if your fieldset is intended for an AJAX application? And thus will not require a form (as your data is not sent through the form, but is picked up by javascript)? Indeed, my opinion is that a fieldset should only contain form elements, but not necessarily be inside a form tag. I do disagree with Julián's approach. Also, if I may add, strong should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and only in a case where you have a strong point to make, and not a replacement for making bold text. Regards, Svip 2008/5/20 Jason Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello Julian, If you are unsure about what an HTML tag is there for, look up in the W3C specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET It is pretty clear to me there that fieldset element exists for the purpose of grouping form elements together, and not for other purposes. It aids accessibility and overall meaning of (larger) forms. Hence I would strongly argue that fieldset should not be used outside a form and should not be used for purposes of styling for we have CSS. Hope this helps. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com www.flexewebs.wordpress.com www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.facebook.com/pages/London/Flexewebs/11264349395 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2]. The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3]. It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML. Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading (hn class=structural) even just a simple strong class=structural, and if necessary, hide them by CSS I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com. Example: div id=main-nav strong class=structuralMain navigation/strong !-- or hnMain navigation/hn -- ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /div So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this: fieldset id=main-nav legend class=structuralMain navigation/legend ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /fieldset Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so, it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense. fieldset id=actions legend class=structuralYou can do the following/legend ul liaCreate/a/li liaDelete/a/li liaEdit/a/li /ul /fieldset Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers): 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a form? 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural labels enhance accessibility)? 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this? Thanks. Julián. [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/ [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928 [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL
[WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
@Jason and @Svip quoted: Svip wrote: I do disagree with Julián's approach. Also, if I may add, strong should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and only in a case where you have a strong point to make, and not a replacement for making bold text. I'm *not* using it as a replacing for making bold text. I use strong to make the text (the content of the structural markup) strong (emphasized). Have you take a look at NetRelations.se [1] source (or better, disable the CSS to see the structural markup in action). In fact, in my example, this strong element is child of a block element (div), so it's not only semantic (see below paragraph) but also valid [2] (inline element validate as child of a block element and sibling of another one). Back to the *semantics* of this: divstrongmain navigation/strong //.../div I repeat: that's semantic, for me: this text is strong, it's important, and no, it's not a paragraph or a heading (we could disagree). Yes, it would not be the most perfect semantic out there, but perfect semantics aren't achievable by current XHTML elements . Not everything out there fits perfect on being a paragraph, or a heading, or an unordered list or whatever (lets not talk about the semantics of div and span). I agree, web pages are documents, web pages should look as documents and should make sense with/without CSS enabled (dont' forget that CSS disabled is, in fact, browser default CSS, and not a totally reseted CSS). So, if reading a site with CSS disabled (default browser CSS), the semantics are given to us (sighted people) by visual formatting of elements (headings are bold, have bigger size, blockquotes are indented, etc), and structural mark-up adds semantic help for people with are visual impaired (but not blind), cognitive disabilities, or even, people using a device with no support for CSS. So, if reading a site with a screen reader, semantics are given by speech (pronunciation and/or help speech), and in consequence, a text marked by strong will be read with emphasis. Then, the structural markup (the strong) on my example has its semantics, it's important to be read loud. Again, no, it's not a heading (but could be), nor a paragraph (does every chunck of text out there on the web deserve to be a paragraph, if it isn't a heading nor a list)? Jason wrote: Needless to say that your application should progressively enhancehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancementthrough the presentation layers. the basic (X)HTML page should make total sense with everything (images, css, javascript and flash) switched off and nicely 'upgrade' as you add each new piece of technology to it. Adding structural markup is, in fact, progressive enhancement, as the research [3] I linked on the first post. The question here is: *how to markup the structural markup? which is the best way?* - using headings, as, for example, in 456bereastreet [4] ? - using strong, as, for example, NetRelations.se [1] ? - using the fieldset+legend approach as suggested in this thread? About the last one. Yes, the W3C tells about using fieldset and legend for adding structure to forms. So, case closed? It doesn't say anywhere (aparently) not to use them outside form and this, combined with the fact that both tags validates being outside, *this make it possible to rethink its semantics*. Of course, a research on accessibility/usability regarding using fieldsets and legends for structural markup should be done before claiming it hurts the user experience. Do you have facts about this affecting visitors negatively? Progressive enhancement is not just for sighted people. Accessibility can and should be enhanced if possible. Ideally, accessibility should be good (if not perfect) since the moment you start building a site, and not as an layer of enhancement added later, if there is time. Thanks for your replies (and excuse my english). [1] http://www.netrelations.se [2] http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg30004.html [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm [4] http://www.456bereastreet.com On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2]. The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3]. It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML. Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading (hn class=structural) even just a simple strong class=structural, and if necessary, hide them by CSS I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com. Example: div id=main-nav strong class=structuralMain navigation/strong
Re: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5
On 2008/05/21 07:43 (GMT+1000) Korny Sietsma apparently typed: Sorry, I didn't mean if I had FF3 running - I had it *installed* but not running. And maybe I could have made it work, but I was under time pressure. I just installed FF2 through Ubuntu's standard apt system, and I'd hoped that it would be configured to install it completely independently. When I have more time I'll try again - but running a beta browser, with an alpha of FireBug, I wasn't really very surprised to have stability issues. Maybe I should have been. With Linux distros, except in unusual circumstances, and assuming more than one version exists to choose from, you have to choose only one version of an application to install through the package management system. Other versions must be installed outside the normal package management system. With Mozilla products, it's usually best to install the stable version via package management, then use bzip or whatever is required of the available development or pre-release version in question to place in your $HOME tree or /usr/local tree. If you had a problem installing a mozilla.org build, odds are you didn't have proper deps installed, probably the compat libstdc++5 library, or whatever the Debian system calls it, or a new enough pango. Another option if you want FF3 as your main (via package management) but to keep FF2 for testing is to use Epiphany in lieu of FF2. Plans have been made to switch Epiphany from Gecko to Webkit, but I don't think that will happen before FF2 has had time to nearly die. Oh, and FF3rc1 was out 3 days ago. If Debian sources now have the v3rc available, it may be time to think about instead making it your normal, and installing the mozilla.org release of FF 2.0.0.14 in $HOME or /usr/local. -- . . . . in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you . . . . Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Hi Julian, strong is for emphasis. I am on your side on that one. divs are for separating components/sections of a page and can be semantically very strong, especially when given a meaningful class or id name (e.g. header, footer, contacts, product, etc.) fieldset however is quite specifically defined in W3C documentation as being used for grouping 'form elements', hence it is fairly conclusive in my mind that using fieldset elsewhere is an abuse of the standard, even though it passes validation. As responsible and sensible developers I think we ought to leverage what has already been (pretty well) defined in the official documentation from W3C and utilise the tags we have available to us as best we can. We can work further on trying to come up with better mechanisms for handling some other matters for which we feel current HTML is insufficient. I am hoping that XHTML2.0/HTML5 will help with that, although at the moment it is not looking too promising. That's it for now from me. Your English is very good and your points are well made. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 5/20/08, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: @Jason and @Svip quoted: Svip wrote: I do disagree with Julián's approach. Also, if I may add, strong should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and only in a case where you have a strong point to make, and not a replacement for making bold text. I'm *not* using it as a replacing for making bold text. I use strong to make the text (the content of the structural markup) strong (emphasized). Have you take a look at NetRelations.se [1] source (or better, disable the CSS to see the structural markup in action). In fact, in my example, this strong element is child of a block element (div), so it's not only semantic (see below paragraph) but also valid [2] (inline element validate as child of a block element and sibling of another one). Back to the *semantics* of this: divstrongmain navigation/strong //.../div I repeat: that's semantic, for me: this text is strong, it's important, and no, it's not a paragraph or a heading (we could disagree). Yes, it would not be the most perfect semantic out there, but perfect semantics aren't achievable by current XHTML elements . Not everything out there fits perfect on being a paragraph, or a heading, or an unordered list or whatever (lets not talk about the semantics of div and span). I agree, web pages are documents, web pages should look as documents and should make sense with/without CSS enabled (dont' forget that CSS disabled is, in fact, browser default CSS, and not a totally reseted CSS). So, if reading a site with CSS disabled (default browser CSS), the semantics are given to us (sighted people) by visual formatting of elements (headings are bold, have bigger size, blockquotes are indented, etc), and structural mark-up adds semantic help for people with are visual impaired (but not blind), cognitive disabilities, or even, people using a device with no support for CSS. So, if reading a site with a screen reader, semantics are given by speech (pronunciation and/or help speech), and in consequence, a text marked by strong will be read with emphasis. Then, the structural markup (the strong) on my example has its semantics, it's important to be read loud. Again, no, it's not a heading (but could be), nor a paragraph (does every chunck of text out there on the web deserve to be a paragraph, if it isn't a heading nor a list)? Jason wrote: Needless to say that your application should progressively enhancehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancementthrough the presentation layers. the basic (X)HTML page should make total sense with everything (images, css, javascript and flash) switched off and nicely 'upgrade' as you add each new piece of technology to it. Adding structural markup is, in fact, progressive enhancement, as the research [3] I linked on the first post. The question here is: *how to markup the structural markup? which is the best way?* - using headings, as, for example, in 456bereastreet [4] ? - using strong, as, for example, NetRelations.se [1] ? - using the fieldset+legend approach as suggested in this thread? About the last one. Yes, the W3C tells about using fieldset and legend for adding structure to forms. So, case closed? It doesn't say anywhere (aparently) not to use them outside form and this, combined with the fact that both tags validates being outside, *this make it possible to rethink its semantics*. Of course, a research on accessibility/usability regarding using fieldsets and legends for structural markup should be done before claiming it hurts the user experience. Do you have facts about this affecting visitors negatively? Progressive enhancement is not just for sighted people. Accessibility can and should be enhanced if possible.
Re: [WSG] Tag for quotes
This question was asked less a week ago, here was my reply: The W3C has an example of the use of the cite and quote elements here: http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/xhtml2/spec-examples/mod-text/cite -ex01.xhtml Or you can read all about quotations here: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 You could avoid the blockquote and use a paragraph depending on the length of the quoted text. Only use the q element if it is an inline quote (i.e., a short quote). If you want a lengthy quote, use the blockquote. An inline quote example: code pcite cite=http://www.comany-url.com;Company XYZ says/cite q lang=us-enYou are the best!/q/p /code A block level quote example (as Mike indicated above): code blockquote pI have a lot of things to say about this guy. He's done a really great job! cite cite=http://www.company-url.com;--- Company XYZ/cite/p /blockquote /code You can also add an anchor around the company name if you want to link to their website. I don't believe the cite *attribute* (as opposed to *element*or 'tag') is compulsory if you're not referring to an online source, but I'm not entirely certain. Jason On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 2:15 AM, Rob Enslin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's pretty clear. Many thanks Robert, David and Rahul. 2008/5/20 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 20-May-08, at 8:43 PM, Rob Enslin wrote: Please could someone help me decide which is the most appropriate tag to use with quotes? The most appropriate tag to use is the blockquote element. I would mark up your content like so: blockquote pLIW 2007 was a great show for Technogym. We showcased an exciting 7 new products which our customers loved. LIW is a great event to help us showcase our products and present our latest solutions to the market!/p pciteTECHNOGYM UK LTD/cite/p /blockquote q The q element should be used for [...] short quotations (inline content) that don't require paragraph breaks. [1]. cite The cite element (or citation) is used to specify the source of the quote, and to use it to mark up a quote would be semantically incorrect. [2] Best, - Rahul. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Rob Enslin http://enslin.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] global site list...
hi , anybody can suggest me a best way to show global site links in one page.. I have around 70 countries to list out. -- navii - thanks and regards Naveen Bhaskar Menon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
