Re: [WSG] W3C HTML Validation of an Intranet site

2008-06-19 Thread Lachlan Hardy
If you have the capacity, I advise installing your own local copy.
Instructions are available from the W3C:
http://validator.w3.org/docs/install.html

There are similar instructions for the CSS validator:
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/DOWNLOAD.html

Thanks!

Lachlan Hardy


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[WSG] Validation

2008-06-19 Thread Fuji kusaka
Can someone help me out with this validation?

this is a javascript for my menu which is inside my html page.


*Line 154, Column 39*: document type does not allow element li here.

$back = $('li class=back**div
class=left/div/li').appendTo

 ✉ http://validator.w3.org/feedback.html?uri=;errmsg_id=64#errormsg

The element named above was found in a context where it is not allowed. This
could mean that you have incorrectly nested elements -- such as a style
element in the body section instead of inside head -- or two elements
that overlap (which is not allowed).

One common cause for this error is the use of XHTML syntax in HTML
documents. Due to HTML's rules of implicitly closed elements, this error can
create cascading effects. For instance, using XHTML's self-closing tags
for meta and link in the head section of a HTML document may cause the
parser to infer the end of the head section and the beginning of the
body section (where link and meta are not allowed; hence the reported
error).

-- 
Fuji kusaka

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Re: [WSG] Validation

2008-06-19 Thread Seona Bellamy
At a guess, I'd say that the problem is caused by having your
javascript in the head of your document, which makes the validator try
to parse it (and so find li's in the head, where no li's should
be).

Simplest solution would be to move your javascript into an external
file and just link it into the head instead.

Cheers,

Seona.

2008/6/19 Fuji kusaka [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Can someone help me out with this validation?

 this is a javascript for my menu which is inside my html page.


 Line 154, Column 39: document type does not allow element li here.

 $back = $('li class=backdiv
 class=left/div/li').appendTo

 ✉

 The element named above was found in a context where it is not allowed. This
 could mean that you have incorrectly nested elements -- such as a style
 element in the body section instead of inside head -- or two elements
 that overlap (which is not allowed).

 One common cause for this error is the use of XHTML syntax in HTML
 documents. Due to HTML's rules of implicitly closed elements, this error can
 create cascading effects. For instance, using XHTML's self-closing tags
 for meta and link in the head section of a HTML document may cause the
 parser to infer the end of the head section and the beginning of the
 body section (where link and meta are not allowed; hence the reported
 error).

 --
 Fuji kusaka
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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread jody tate
After much googling around (I was fascinated by this question) and  
much reading of various W3C documents here and there, I can say with  
about 97.3% certainty that the W3C has never drafted a recommendation  
that standardized file extensions. Most of their recommendations  
include URI examples that use the .html extension and the site itself  
appears to use .html extensions: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/Cover.html.


The real story of why .htm and three letter extensions were ever used  
is told in a round about way here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filename_extension 
.


Given the history of filename extensions, I can see how someone might  
think that a three-letter extension is required (and maybe--for some  
strange reason--the server's settings do require html to be served  
as .htm and .html files are served differently). Whatever the case,  
the W3C doesn't recommend .htm as a standard.


--
Jody Tate
Web Developer - UW Network Systems
http://staff.washington.edu/jtate/




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Re: [WSG] User testing results to reinforce 'no popup' recommendation [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2008-06-19 Thread Brad Pollard

Thanks Nate for the links.

I really want to focus on the usability impacts of pop-ups.

I'd love to see the AGIMO research that was done - do you have the name 
of someone within the organisation that I could contact with regards to 
sourcing this?


~ brad

Ward, Nathan wrote:

Hi Brad,
I don't have any test data that shows this, however, below are a two 
articles from Digital Web Magazine that mention the topic.
I'm also fairly sure that AGIMO has some research on the topic but I 
couldn't find it this afternoon.
You could also check out the Vision Australia website 
(http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/).
 
 
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/accessible_by_design/
Avoid using links that create a new browser window. If you do use 
them, warn users.  Users may not be aware of the shift in their 
system's focus.  It may disorient or confuse them.  This is also a 
usability issue since users can't use the Back button to navigate back 
and revisit pages.  It's easy to accidentally close the wrong window 
and lose what you want to access.  Add a text warning message or place 
a small icon (with a warning in the ALT attribute) before links that 
will spawn a new window.
 
Avoid pop-up windows, when possible.  This has problems similar to 
creating a new window, but also has JavaScript complications.  Access 
to the pop-up should be device independent.  More importantly, make 
the content in the pop-up accessible if JavaScript is turned off.
 
 
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/designer_user_partnership/
The other area designers overstep is in controlling the user 
environment. The Web behaves in ways that are predictable to users. 
For example, when a user clicks a link, the browser requests the page 
from the Web server, the Web server sends the page to the browser, and 
the Web browser renders the page. Sometimes designers get involved in 
this transaction by moving the cursor directly to the search input 
field or opening links in a new window. We, as designers, use these 
methods because we want to be helpful. We assume that most users will 
want to use the search feature on arrival; to make things easier, we 
put the cursor in the search input field. We assume that most users 
will want to keep in contact with our site while exploring other 
sites; to make things easier, we open external links in a new window.


But sometimes these helpful interventions wind up causing usability 
problems because they violate expectations. People expect to begin 
listening to or tabbing through a Web page from its beginning and will 
be disoriented if the cursor focus is not at the top of the page. 
People expect to use the Back button to retrace their navigation 
path and will not be able to return to the originating site if it is 
not in the window history. While these actions may be helpful to some, 
they will create usability problems for others. Moving the cursor and 
opening a new window are functions of the user environment and should 
be performed by the user.


Cheers, Nate
 



*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brad Pollard

*Sent:* Wednesday, 18 June 2008 16:44
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* [WSG] User testing results to reinforce 'no popup' 
recommendation


A dear client is holding us over a barrel.

Does anyone have some user test data/video (that they are willing to 
share) that shows that forcing a popup window for external links is a 
bad idea?


~ brad pollard
02 9699 7145



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[WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread James Jeffery
A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use
P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
case.

Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?


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RE: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick Lauke
 jody tate

 Most of their recommendations  
 include URI examples that use the .html extension and the 
 site itself  
 appears to use .html extensions: 
 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/Cover.html.

In fact, there's some advice that advocates ditching file extensions altogether 
for future-proofing

http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI
and specifically http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI#remove

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Michael Persson

Poetry is art and its really ugly to even try to mark it correctly.

There must be something that would work though and i have actually
tried with a really bad result.. http://kevinmcgeary.com/essay.html

With inherit and ems mixed with p there must be a way also where
beginning letter would be replaced with a sIFR font to be pretty
and make it really pretty...

I didnt have the energy because it so rare and really destroying the
words meaning i guess...

Michael




James Jeffery wrote:

A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to 
use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect 
for this case.


Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?

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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick Lauke
Well yes, you could mark it up as XML behind the scenes, but you shouldn't be 
sending XML to the browser. They might or might not be able to cope with it, 
but you'd be breaking validation (unless you used XHTML sent as actual XML and 
start namespacing things).
 
In simple terms, I'd mark up each stanza as a paragraph and slap line breaks in 
for each line.
 
P
 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James 
Jeffery
Sent: 19 June 2008 10:08
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Marking Up Poems


A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to 
use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this 
case.

Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?

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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Michael Cordover
I would suggest that this is pre. Poetry is generally so
display-specific that you couldn't hope to mark it up, I'd say.

Michael

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 19:08, James Jeffery
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

 I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use
 P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
 case.

 Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread James Jeffery
True.

I still think there should be a stanard set of elements to mark up poems
though. Not checked if WG are doing anything in HTML 5 - i think they are.

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:38 AM, Michael Cordover 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I would suggest that this is pre. Poetry is generally so
 display-specific that you couldn't hope to mark it up, I'd say.

 Michael

 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 19:08, James Jeffery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.
 
  I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use
  P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
  case.
 
  Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread James Jeffery
Just another resource for those interested:
http://signified.com.au/a-poem-element-for-html5/

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:53 AM, James Jeffery 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 True.

 I still think there should be a stanard set of elements to mark up poems
 though. Not checked if WG are doing anything in HTML 5 - i think they are.


 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:38 AM, Michael Cordover 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I would suggest that this is pre. Poetry is generally so
 display-specific that you couldn't hope to mark it up, I'd say.

 Michael

 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 19:08, James Jeffery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.
 
  I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to
 use
  P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
  case.
 
  Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Jon Tan


On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote:


A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was  
to use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is  
perfect for this case.


Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?


Historically each stanza in a poem is a paragraph. Layout (new lines)  
began punctuating paragraphs in the later Middle Ages. Prior to that  
the lines ran into one another with punctuation used to indicate where  
breaths and breaks in the running text occurred [1]. Syntactic  
punctuation was not commonplace until after Ben Johnson's English  
Grammar in 1640. That means that layout /is/ punctuation for modern  
poetry, so markup needs to reflect that. My recommendation would be  
p for stanzas and br / line breaks for most verse. To do anything  
that returns stanzas to running text when CSS is disabled would break  
the syntax of the verse /unless/ lines are specifically punctuated  
with something other than a break at the end; a comma for example.  
pre is an alternative but does not punctuate line ends at all,  
except visually. It would be interesting to know how alternative  
browsers handle both br /s and single/double line breaks in pre  
blocks. Do they inject a pause or other aural boundary?


Jon Tan
-
http://jontangerine.com/

[1] http://www.ualberta.ca/~sreimer/ms-course/course/punc.htm



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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Jonathan D'mello
To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
say it will break W3C standards.

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Patrick H. Lauke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Rob Enslin wrote:

 I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages where
 previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the support staff
 and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file extensions (or
 rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard)

 Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to actually point out
 where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be...

 --
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __
 re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
 [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
 www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
 http://redux.deviantart.com
 __
 Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
 http://webstandards.org/
 __


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RE: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Jonathan D'mello

 To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
 excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
 say it will break W3C standards.

The core tenet of web standards is to choose the most 
semantically/structurally appropriate way to mark content up using official W3C 
standards. But hey, feel free to just start making up your own markup 
(stanza/stanza, line/line, word/word) and style it with 
CSS...visually, it will probably look fine, but don't be surprised if you run 
into serious interoperability problems and issues like assistive technology not 
being able to understand what the heck you actually meant with your made-up 
markup...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread César Páris
And the other excuse is that is that everybody use it. Just ask for proves
of that (both the standards and the numbers). Weak developers hide under
this false statements to avoid doing their job.


P.S. If they ask for your proves, you only have to show them the W3C pages.
They are in html, so somebody are using it.

César Páris

2008/6/19 Jonathan D'mello [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
 excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
 say it will break W3C standards.

 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Patrick H. Lauke
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Rob Enslin wrote:
 
  I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages
 where
  previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the support
 staff
  and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file extensions
 (or
  rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard)
 
  Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to actually point
 out
  where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be...
 
  --
  Patrick H. Lauke
  __
  re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
  [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
  www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
  http://redux.deviantart.com
  __
  Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
  http://webstandards.org/
  __
 
 
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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Ben Buchanan
 A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.
It depends on the form, really. For most poetry, I think paragraphs with
line breaks are appropriate. If the poem requires very specific positioning,
pre would be the first option as that doesn't rely on CSS. Finally if all
else fails, divs for verses and paragraphs for lines, with classes to
position them. But that won't degrade gracefully, since CSS is required to
convey core meaning.

There's not much hope for something better in future either. XHTML2 had the
l element, which was the line element. That would have been useful in
this case. Sadly HTML5 doesn't seem to have anything so simple as a way to
mark up a line of text within a paragraph.

cheers,

Ben
-- 
--- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Are you sure they're not right?

I'd make them prove it
Joe

On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:11, Jonathan D'mello wrote:


To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
say it will break W3C standards.

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Patrick H. Lauke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Rob Enslin wrote:

I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm  
pages where
previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the  
support staff
and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file  
extensions (or

rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard)


Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to actually  
point out

where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be...

--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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==
Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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RE: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Quoting Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Jonathan D'mello



To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
say it will break W3C standards.


Sorry, I just re-read this and realised that I completely got the  
wrong conversation. I thought for some reason that this was in reply  
to the [WSG] Marking Up Poems discussion, and that it was in defense  
of not following standards. Crikey...


Profuse apologies! I obviously haven't had enough coffee this  
morning...disregard my passionate reply rant...


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Jon Tan


On 19 Jun 2008, at 11:06, Jon Tan wrote:


On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote:


A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was  
to use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is  
perfect for this case.


[snip] It would be interesting to know how alternative browsers  
handle both br /s and single/double line breaks in pre blocks.  
Do they inject a pause or other aural boundary?


Jon Gibbins (http://dotjay.co.uk) of GAWDS and Accessify forum has  
kindly run some screen reader tests on both p with br / and pre.  
He's also published the actual results as .MP3s:


http://lab.dotjay.co.uk/tests/screen-readers/poetry/

Jon
-
http://jontangerine.com/



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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread James Jeffery
Very good!

But I have to say they all sound the same. Did anyone spot any differences?
I think there may have been a difference in the second one but can't be
sure.

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:09 PM, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On 19 Jun 2008, at 11:06, Jon Tan wrote:


 On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote:

 A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

 I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use
 P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
 case.


 [snip] It would be interesting to know how alternative browsers handle both
 br /s and single/double line breaks in pre blocks. Do they inject a
 pause or other aural boundary?


 Jon Gibbins (http://dotjay.co.uk) of GAWDS and Accessify forum has kindly
 run some screen reader tests on both p with br / and pre. He's also
 published the actual results as .MP3s:

 http://lab.dotjay.co.uk/tests/screen-readers/poetry/

 Jon
 -
 http://jontangerine.com/


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread jody tate
I'd stress what Jon Tan wrote:  My recommendation would be p for  
stanzas and br / line breaks for most verse. Stanzas are usually  
taught as the paragraph of poetry and verses are referred to as line  
breaks.


Side note you're free to ignore: I'd argue most of the historical bits  
below are incorrect in the details, but are correct in general.  
Jonson's _English Grammar_ is a great snapshot of the period's grammar  
eccentricities, but hardly a guide that was followed--he didn't care  
enough to publish it while alive despite how careful he was about  
publication (I did a Ph.D. one Shakespeare and taught medieval, early  
modern and modern poetry for eight years before the siren call of web  
work).


-jody

--
Jody Tate
Web Developer - UW Network Systems
http://staff.washington.edu/jtate/


On Jun 19, 2008, at 3:06 AM, Jon Tan wrote:

Historically each stanza in a poem is a paragraph. Layout (new  
lines) began punctuating paragraphs in the later Middle Ages. Prior  
to that the lines ran into one another with punctuation used to  
indicate where breaths and breaks in the running text occurred [1].  
Syntactic punctuation was not commonplace until after Ben Johnson's  
English Grammar in 1640. That means that layout /is/ punctuation for  
modern poetry, so markup needs to reflect that. My recommendation  
would be p for stanzas and br / line breaks for most verse. To  
do anything that returns stanzas to running text when CSS is  
disabled would break the syntax of the verse /unless/ lines are  
specifically punctuated with something other than a break at the  
end; a comma for example. pre is an alternative but does not  
punctuate line ends at all, except visually. It would be interesting  
to know how alternative browsers handle both br /s and single/ 
double line breaks in pre blocks. Do they inject a pause or other  
aural boundary?










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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Rob Enslin
Many thanks for all the input.

Now for the fun part... go back to the CMS vendor who made the claim and ask
for some proof ;-)

Have a great day/night.

Rob

2008/6/19 Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Quoting Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

  Jonathan D'mello


  To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
 excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
 say it will break W3C standards.


 Sorry, I just re-read this and realised that I completely got the wrong
 conversation. I thought for some reason that this was in reply to the [WSG]
 Marking Up Poems discussion, and that it was in defense of not following
 standards. Crikey...

 Profuse apologies! I obviously haven't had enough coffee this
 morning...disregard my passionate reply rant...

 P
 --
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __
 re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
 [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
 www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
 http://redux.deviantart.com
 __
 Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
 http://webstandards.org/
 __
 Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
 http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
 __




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-- 
Rob Enslin
Blog: http://enslin.co.uk
Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin


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Re: [WSG] W3C HTML Validation of an Intranet site

2008-06-19 Thread Matijs
Best tip for me for ages, thanks man!

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Gonzalo González Mora [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 2:41 AM, Hayden's Harness Attachment 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I have an Intranet site I wish to put through the HTML validator. How do I
 validate the Internet site. Download and save the code? then upload the code
 to the HTML validator?

 Angus MacKinnon
 Infoforce Services
 http://www.infoforce-services.com

 Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into
 the light. - Helen Keller



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 Hello Angus,
 You can go here: http://validator.w3.org/#validate_by_upload, select your
 file and upload it. You'll get the validation results of the uploaded file.
 You can use the Web Developer add-on for Firefox and press CTRL+SHIFT+A, it
 automates this process.

 Gonzalo


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RE: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate

2008-06-19 Thread Paul Bennett
select custom install and install it to another directory (something like 
/Mozilla/Firefox3) and the two will run side-by-side.

You can do this with Opera too.
:)
Paul


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Andrew Harris
A poem is, essentially, a block quotation, is it not?

I'd probably be throwing in a cite attribute too :-)
http://reference.sitepoint.com/html/blockquote/cite

-- 
Andrew Harris
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ * ~~~


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[WSG] unsubscribe

2008-06-19 Thread Cazabon, Margaret (DPS)
unsubscribe

Kind regards
Margaret 

Margaret Cazabon
Parliamentary Web Manager
Department of Parliamentary Services
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600

phone 62772431
fax 62772400
email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.aph.gov.au




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Re: [WSG] unsubscribe

2008-06-19 Thread Gonzalo González Mora
Hi Margaret,
I think you have to go here:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm

Gonzalo

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 8:45 PM, Cazabon, Margaret (DPS) 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  unsubscribe

 *Kind regards*
 *Margaret *

 Margaret Cazabon
 Parliamentary Web Manager
 Department of Parliamentary Services
 Parliament House
 Canberra ACT 2600

 phone 62772431
 fax 62772400
 email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***http://www.aph.gov.au* http://www.aph.gov.au


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Susie Gardner-Brown
I look after a poetry ezine site ( http://www.foame.org/) and that¹s what I
do. 

For a lot of  poets, the look of their poem on the page is very important.
Sometimes they want to make visual patterns with their stanzas ... always a
bit hit and miss, depending on browsers/platforms etc.

And then you get the poems with lines that are required to start under a
specific word in the previous line ­ have had to make use of a lot of
non-breaking spaces to do that, and again it can¹t be precise.

- susie




On 20/6/08 2:42 AM, jody tate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'd stress what Jon Tan wrote:  My recommendation would be p for stanzas
 and br / line breaks for most verse. Stanzas are usually taught as the
 paragraph of poetry and verses are referred to as line breaks.
 
 Side note you're free to ignore: I'd argue most of the historical bits below
 are incorrect in the details, but are correct in general. Jonson's _English
 Grammar_ is a great snapshot of the period's grammar eccentricities, but
 hardly a guide that was followed--he didn't care enough to publish it while
 alive despite how careful he was about publication (I did a Ph.D. one
 Shakespeare and taught medieval, early modern and modern poetry for eight
 years before the siren call of web work).
 
 -jody
 
 --
 Jody Tate
 Web Developer - UW Network Systems
 http://staff.washington.edu/jtate/
 
 
 On Jun 19, 2008, at 3:06 AM, Jon Tan wrote:
 
 Historically each stanza in a poem is a paragraph. Layout (new lines) began
 punctuating paragraphs in the later Middle Ages. Prior to that the lines ran
 into one another with punctuation used to indicate where breaths and breaks
 in the running text occurred [1]. Syntactic punctuation was not commonplace
 until after Ben Johnson's English Grammar in 1640. That means that layout
 /is/ punctuation for modern poetry, so markup needs to reflect that. My
 recommendation would be p for stanzas and br / line breaks for most
 verse. To do anything that returns stanzas to running text when CSS is
 disabled would break the syntax of the verse /unless/ lines are specifically
 punctuated with something other than a break at the end; a comma for example.
 pre is an alternative but does not punctuate line ends at all, except
 visually. It would be interesting to know how alternative browsers handle
 both br /s and single/double line breaks in pre blocks. Do they inject a
 pause or other aural boundary?
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
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 ***




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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Andrew Harris wrote:

A poem is, essentially, a block quotation, is it not?


Not if it's your own poem you're putting on your own page.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Paul Bennett
 Not if it's your own poem you're putting on your own page.

Rubbish - I quote myself all the time! :)

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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread russ - maxdesign
 Not if it's your own poem you're putting on your own page.

 Rubbish - I quote myself all the time! :)

Don't you mean:
blockquote cite=me
Rubbish - I quote myself all the time! :)
/blockquote

:)




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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Paul Bennett
Must you Australian's *always* have the last say?  ;)


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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Matthew Hodgson
not always, but often. esp if it ends in beer and a party



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 20 June 2008 12:12 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

Must you Australian's *always* have the last say?  ;)


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Re: [WSG] W3C HTML Validation of an Intranet site

2008-06-19 Thread Hayden's Harness Attachment
Thank you all. After installing Firefox 3.0 and the web developer 1.6, I went 
to http://www.tereasangas.com and it seemed to work with my screen reader just 
fine and I used the webdeveloper toolbar to validate the web site. The W3C 
Validator gave a failed validation message;

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.terasengas.com%2FHomes%2Fdefault.htm

I am really confused. Can anyone explain?

Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http://www.infoforce-services.com

Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into
the light. - Helen Keller



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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Must you Australian's *always* have the last say?  ;)


not always, but often. esp if it ends in beer and a party


Is that why what you say most often makes no sense?

:-)

Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] W3C HTML Validation of an Intranet site

2008-06-19 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote:


http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.terasengas.com%2FHomes%2Fdefault.htm
 I am really confused. Can anyone explain?


What the validator says:

There's one end-tag too many for a link on line 91. Delete one /A in
that line.

Alt-attributes not included for images on line 115 and line 130. Make
that empty alt-attributes, alt=, since those images probably don't
need alt-text.

Looks like a missing  on the start-tag for the link on line 150. That
generates three errors since the validator tries to interpret the
link-text as part of the link-address.

You've used XHTML syntax to close the image-element in line 304. Delete
the ending / since you're marking up in HTML 4.01 Transitional.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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