Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread Lewis, Matthew
What would be more a productive use of your time David is validating  
your pages.


And there is plenty of We are still moving into our new site...  
please bear with us... stuff that still needs to be written.


Just a suggestion.

On 5/08/2008, at 12:34 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


Well hey everybody...

It would appear Andrew has decided to take his comments out of the  
public

view and turn them personal... Please read..

On Aug 1, 2008, at 2:31 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


group does NOT have to be SPECIFICALLY about web standards


Perhaps not, but totally irrelevant attacks on any platform are a  
waste of

everyone's time and energy.


Frankly I don't believe anyone on this list learned anything useful  
from the

fact that you don't like macs.


So as one professional to another, please keep your comments  
constructive at
least. If you have a reasoned argument as to why the macintosh  
platform is
inimical to web standards, I for one would be interested to hear  
what you
have to say. Otherwise your remark is as useful and informative to  
this list

as your tastes in ice-cream would be.



List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm


Andrew


http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.




Andrew if you are so afraid of negative comments, don't post at all.  
My
comments were not aimed @ macs or any other platform - get your  
facts right

before you start sprouting your mouth off...

I used that development platform as an EXAMPLE of similar  
discussions had

in the past where people got uppity... I was not referring to now..

To paraphrase yourself Andrew If you have something of value, then  
don't

bring it to the forum

Why can people not realize that they are not the end all and be all,  
and my
main point was this. Those with less skills than professionals like  
myself
(and Andrew I don't know I haven't seen his work) will ask questions  
to

learn and to grow as developers...

If we as a community want a unified web standard and it to be widely  
used
and accepted, we need to encourage, help and support those who are  
still

learning...

Why is that so hard for you to fathom Andrew?


David Fuller
Developer
magickweb
Web:http://www.magick.com.au
Tel:   0434 728 267
Email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:08 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning  
was

Extra white line on the top of my list

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth in both David and  
Adams views.


If places like this are to reach the widest possible audience they  
must be
accessible to all (with reason); ditto to be a usable standards  
debating
forum we should be debating the finer points not spending ALL our  
time on

what the experts among us may consider to be trivial.

Two suggestions;

[1]That we all take a moment to consider those who may know a  
little
less than we on a specific subject and attempt to use plain English  
when

replying;  thus to help others along the way.

[2]When responding to eager questioners such as Michael suggest  
that
they take the conversation off the forum; but please bring it back  
when a

conclusion has been reached as I suspect I lot of equally eager thread
watchers may be keen to know the answer too.

I will now return to lurking

Regards

Ian Chamberlain
ex-Head of Web Strategy BT Global Services; now Freelancing and  
having a

ball.
www.chamberlainsofharrogate.co.uk


- Original Message -
From: David Fuller - magickweb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:23 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my  
list



Adam...

I am sorry but I have to disagree whole heartedly... What is the  
standards
group, if not a place where all people can who choose to, can come  
and gain
guidance and learning to become STANDARDS COMPLIANT??? It would  
appear that

this is exactly what the group is for...

I've mentioned this in another thread, where people get all uppity  
about not
exactly web standards content (I think in that example it was  
discussing

Development Platforms...)

Regardless we are all professionals, and we are here to help, to  
learn and
to keep up to date, so if somebody with slightly less experience  
than you
asks for assistance, what's the harm in giving that assistance? It  
doesn't
cost you anything and you do end up with a grateful developer/ 
designer - and

that's positive networking - again a very big plus for any business.

/endOfRant

Enjoy all :)

David Fuller
Developer
magickweb
Web:http://www.magick.com.au
Tel:   0434 728 267

RE: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread David Fuller - magickweb
I spend my development time actually working on client sites...

How I spend my time is none of your concern - If your going to start getting
all antsy and narcissistic then its showing your not professional...



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lewis, Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:55 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was
Extra white line on the top of my list

What would be more a productive use of your time David is validating  
your pages.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

And there is plenty of We are still moving into our new site...  
please bear with us... stuff that still needs to be written.

Just a suggestion.

On 5/08/2008, at 12:34 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:

 Well hey everybody...

 It would appear Andrew has decided to take his comments out of the  
 public
 view and turn them personal... Please read..

 On Aug 1, 2008, at 2:31 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


 group does NOT have to be SPECIFICALLY about web standards


 Perhaps not, but totally irrelevant attacks on any platform are a  
 waste of
 everyone's time and energy.


 Frankly I don't believe anyone on this list learned anything useful  
 from the
 fact that you don't like macs.


 So as one professional to another, please keep your comments  
 constructive at
 least. If you have a reasoned argument as to why the macintosh  
 platform is
 inimical to web standards, I for one would be interested to hear  
 what you
 have to say. Otherwise your remark is as useful and informative to  
 this list
 as your tastes in ice-cream would be.



 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm


 Andrew


 http://www.andrewmaben.net
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
 instructions.

 

 Andrew if you are so afraid of negative comments, don't post at all.  
 My
 comments were not aimed @ macs or any other platform - get your  
 facts right
 before you start sprouting your mouth off...

 I used that development platform as an EXAMPLE of similar  
 discussions had
 in the past where people got uppity... I was not referring to now..

 To paraphrase yourself Andrew If you have something of value, then  
 don't
 bring it to the forum

 Why can people not realize that they are not the end all and be all,  
 and my
 main point was this. Those with less skills than professionals like  
 myself
 (and Andrew I don't know I haven't seen his work) will ask questions  
 to
 learn and to grow as developers...

 If we as a community want a unified web standard and it to be widely  
 used
 and accepted, we need to encourage, help and support those who are  
 still
 learning...

 Why is that so hard for you to fathom Andrew?


 David Fuller
 Developer
 magickweb
 Web:http://www.magick.com.au
 Tel:   0434 728 267
 Email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain
 Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:08 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning  
 was
 Extra white line on the top of my list

 I suspect there is more than a grain of truth in both David and  
 Adams views.

 If places like this are to reach the widest possible audience they  
 must be
 accessible to all (with reason); ditto to be a usable standards  
 debating
 forum we should be debating the finer points not spending ALL our  
 time on
 what the experts among us may consider to be trivial.

 Two suggestions;

 [1]That we all take a moment to consider those who may know a  
 little
 less than we on a specific subject and attempt to use plain English  
 when
 replying;  thus to help others along the way.

 [2]When responding to eager questioners such as Michael suggest  
 that
 they take the conversation off the forum; but please bring it back  
 when a
 conclusion has been reached as I suspect I lot of equally eager thread
 watchers may be keen to know the answer too.

 I will now return to lurking

 Regards

 Ian Chamberlain
 ex-Head of Web Strategy BT Global Services; now Freelancing and  
 having a
 ball.
 www.chamberlainsofharrogate.co.uk


 - Original Message -
 From: David Fuller - magickweb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:23 PM
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my  
 list


 Adam...

 I am sorry but I have to disagree whole heartedly... What is the  
 standards
 group, if not a place where all people can who choose to, can come  
 and gain
 guidance and learning to become STANDARDS COMPLIANT??? It would  
 appear that
 this is exactly what the group 

Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread kevin erickson
I have an idea. Let's let go this for now and let the mediator tell us  
when we are off the web standards fuzzy line. No?


Peace to all!

On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:55:13 -0400, David Fuller - magickweb  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I spend my development time actually working on client sites...

How I spend my time is none of your concern - If your going to start  
getting

all antsy and narcissistic then its showing your not professional...



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lewis, Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:55 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning  
was

Extra white line on the top of my list

What would be more a productive use of your time David is validating
your pages.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

And there is plenty of We are still moving into our new site...
please bear with us... stuff that still needs to be written.

Just a suggestion.

On 5/08/2008, at 12:34 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


Well hey everybody...

It would appear Andrew has decided to take his comments out of the
public
view and turn them personal... Please read..

On Aug 1, 2008, at 2:31 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


group does NOT have to be SPECIFICALLY about web standards


Perhaps not, but totally irrelevant attacks on any platform are a
waste of
everyone's time and energy.


Frankly I don't believe anyone on this list learned anything useful
from the
fact that you don't like macs.


So as one professional to another, please keep your comments
constructive at
least. If you have a reasoned argument as to why the macintosh
platform is
inimical to web standards, I for one would be interested to hear
what you
have to say. Otherwise your remark is as useful and informative to
this list
as your tastes in ice-cream would be.



List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm


Andrew


http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
instructions.



Andrew if you are so afraid of negative comments, don't post at all.
My
comments were not aimed @ macs or any other platform - get your
facts right
before you start sprouting your mouth off...

I used that development platform as an EXAMPLE of similar
discussions had
in the past where people got uppity... I was not referring to now..

To paraphrase yourself Andrew If you have something of value, then
don't
bring it to the forum

Why can people not realize that they are not the end all and be all,
and my
main point was this. Those with less skills than professionals like
myself
(and Andrew I don't know I haven't seen his work) will ask questions
to
learn and to grow as developers...

If we as a community want a unified web standard and it to be widely
used
and accepted, we need to encourage, help and support those who are
still
learning...

Why is that so hard for you to fathom Andrew?


David Fuller
Developer
magickweb
Web:http://www.magick.com.au
Tel:   0434 728 267
Email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:08 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning
was
Extra white line on the top of my list

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth in both David and
Adams views.

If places like this are to reach the widest possible audience they
must be
accessible to all (with reason); ditto to be a usable standards
debating
forum we should be debating the finer points not spending ALL our
time on
what the experts among us may consider to be trivial.

Two suggestions;

[1]That we all take a moment to consider those who may know a
little
less than we on a specific subject and attempt to use plain English
when
replying;  thus to help others along the way.

[2]When responding to eager questioners such as Michael suggest
that
they take the conversation off the forum; but please bring it back
when a
conclusion has been reached as I suspect I lot of equally eager thread
watchers may be keen to know the answer too.

I will now return to lurking

Regards

Ian Chamberlain
ex-Head of Web Strategy BT Global Services; now Freelancing and
having a
ball.
www.chamberlainsofharrogate.co.uk


- Original Message -
From: David Fuller - magickweb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:23 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my
list


Adam...

I am sorry but I have to disagree whole heartedly... What is the
standards
group, if not a place where all people can who choose to, can come
and gain
guidance and learning to become STANDARDS 

Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

keep your handbags to yourselves please? looks like you ran off topic.
;-)

As a list reader, it would be helpful to me (and perhaps to others?)  
if discussions were kept as close as possible to Web Standards related  
issues, and kept polite and respectful. can I kindly ask you to take a  
breather from this thread and cool down until tomorrow?


Would I be considered rude if I asked you to continue this particular  
thread off board?


Thanks in advance.
Joe

On Aug 05, 2008, at 16:55, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


I spend my development time actually working on client sites...

How I spend my time is none of your concern - If your going to start  
getting

all antsy and narcissistic then its showing your not professional...



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Lewis, Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:55 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG]  
Positioning was

Extra white line on the top of my list

What would be more a productive use of your time David is validating
your pages.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

And there is plenty of We are still moving into our new site...
please bear with us... stuff that still needs to be written.

Just a suggestion.

On 5/08/2008, at 12:34 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


Well hey everybody...

It would appear Andrew has decided to take his comments out of the
public
view and turn them personal... Please read..

On Aug 1, 2008, at 2:31 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


group does NOT have to be SPECIFICALLY about web standards


Perhaps not, but totally irrelevant attacks on any platform are a
waste of
everyone's time and energy.


Frankly I don't believe anyone on this list learned anything useful
from the
fact that you don't like macs.


So as one professional to another, please keep your comments
constructive at
least. If you have a reasoned argument as to why the macintosh
platform is
inimical to web standards, I for one would be interested to hear
what you
have to say. Otherwise your remark is as useful and informative to
this list
as your tastes in ice-cream would be.



List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm


Andrew


http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
instructions.



Andrew if you are so afraid of negative comments, don't post at all.
My
comments were not aimed @ macs or any other platform - get your
facts right
before you start sprouting your mouth off...

I used that development platform as an EXAMPLE of similar
discussions had
in the past where people got uppity... I was not referring to now..

To paraphrase yourself Andrew If you have something of value, then
don't
bring it to the forum

Why can people not realize that they are not the end all and be all,
and my
main point was this. Those with less skills than professionals like
myself
(and Andrew I don't know I haven't seen his work) will ask questions
to
learn and to grow as developers...

If we as a community want a unified web standard and it to be widely
used
and accepted, we need to encourage, help and support those who are
still
learning...

Why is that so hard for you to fathom Andrew?


David Fuller
Developer
magickweb
Web:http://www.magick.com.au
Tel:   0434 728 267
Email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:08 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning
was
Extra white line on the top of my list

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth in both David and
Adams views.

If places like this are to reach the widest possible audience they
must be
accessible to all (with reason); ditto to be a usable standards
debating
forum we should be debating the finer points not spending ALL our
time on
what the experts among us may consider to be trivial.

Two suggestions;

[1]That we all take a moment to consider those who may know a
little
less than we on a specific subject and attempt to use plain English
when
replying;  thus to help others along the way.

[2]When responding to eager questioners such as Michael suggest
that
they take the conversation off the forum; but please bring it back
when a
conclusion has been reached as I suspect I lot of equally eager  
thread

watchers may be keen to know the answer too.

I will now return to lurking

Regards

Ian Chamberlain
ex-Head of Web Strategy BT Global Services; now Freelancing and
having a
ball.
www.chamberlainsofharrogate.co.uk


- Original Message -
From: David Fuller - magickweb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, 

Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread Andrew Maben

On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Joseph Ortenzi wrote:

Would I be considered rude if I asked you to continue this  
particular thread off board?


Thanks, Joe. As you saw, I took it off the list once but David had to  
bring it right back. It looks to me as if he just wants to annoy  
people, so I've contacted Russ about it.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.





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RE: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread David Fuller - magickweb
Actually Andrew I am not here to annoy people what I have said has merit.

 

You are so quick to pass judgment simply because you do not agree with
somebody's point of view.

 

Its actually rather pathetic behaviour. If you cannot accept peoples point
of view that differs from yours, then you clearly should not be part of any
forum system because your going to get that everywhere you go.

 

 

 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 2:49 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was
Extra white line on the top of my list

 

On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Joseph Ortenzi wrote:





Would I be considered rude if I asked you to continue this particular thread
off board?

 

Thanks, Joe. As you saw, I took it off the list once but David had to bring
it right back. It looks to me as if he just wants to annoy people, so I've
contacted Russ about it.

 

Andrew

 

http://www.andrewmaben.net

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions.





 


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Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings

2008-08-05 Thread Michael Horowitz

I look at the list guidelines to see if I am appropriate

http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm where it says the list is

Provide web standards information and assistance to developers...

The mail list covers any topic associated with web standards including:

   * Implementing Web Standards - eg: technologies such as HTML, XHTML,
 CSS, DOM, UAAG, RDF, XML, JavaScript and EcmaScript


It seems my questions are about implementing Web Standards.  I certainly 
agree with the earlier posters who suggested I make sure to validate 
before posting questions on what I do.  That would have saved some dumb 
questions on my behalf.  I do think we should probably add requiring 
validation before posting How To my sites broken questions to the list.


I also do think that it is possible their are lurkers on my list 
learning web standards and just starting with tableless design who may 
benefit from my questions.  Going back 20 years to college I remember 
feeling like an idiot being the only one to ask a question in class when 
I didn't understand something only to have a half a dozen people thank 
me for my question after class because they were too afraid to ask.  So 
I do believe there are other who may learn from my questions.


There may be a benefit to the group to have multiple mail lists for 
different aspects of Web Standards including a newbie list where people 
can seek help.  I would also be open to having a standard part of a 
subject line like
Dumb Newbie asking question :)   to allow people who don't want to get 
involved with helping to more easily filter my mail.  I can tell you it 
will probably be 6 months to a year before I can add much more to the 
list besides asking questions so you may just with to use your email 
filter to put my posts to your trash bin and take it out again this time 
next year. 

I know I am supposed to thank people off list for help but as long as it 
is part of a longer posting I will just add some thanks for your help.  
I do learn alot from this list both from my questions on the subject I 
just read.


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Adam Martin wrote:
Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group 
is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting 
to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort 
of things.
- Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list


In playing I've found using the relative positioning working pretty 
good for me.  Is it just a matter of personal preference what I use 
then?


Thanks for the article I really haven't understood negative margins.

Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



David Hucklesby wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:32:16 -0400, Michael Horowitz wrote:

The live page is horowitzfamily.net.  I'm just learning positioning 
and this seemed to

work.  The issue as mentioned earlier was transparency in my image.

however I am just learning to do css without tables and really 
don't know what I
should be doing for positioning.  Quite honestly in hacking 
around this worked.  I'll

be happy to get feedback on better techniques for the future




CSS gives you a lot of options for positioning elements on a page.
As with all design issues, the best choice is usually a compromise,
depending on what you want to achieve.

My first choice for positioning elements is often to use margins -
including negative margins on occasion. See this CommunityMX article
for more:

  http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=b0029

Hope this helps.

Cordially,
David
--



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RE: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of David Fuller - magickweb
 Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:55 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning
was
 Extra white line on the top of my list
 
 I spend my development time actually working on client sites...
 
 How I spend my time is none of your concern - If your going to start
getting
 all antsy and narcissistic then its showing your not professional...

David,

Why sending this to the list? 
I replied *off-list* to one of your post yesterday saying that keeping the
noise to a minimum is something we should all try to do, but you don't seem
to care. I'd agree that the post you replied to should not have been sent to
the list either, but still. 
Please think twice before hitting the send button.

Thank you.

PS: sorry for the extra noise


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread kevin erickson
You know the saying, 'If you don't like something, ignore it and it will  
go away'? Let's try that here :D
On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 12:48:57 -0400, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:



On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Joseph Ortenzi wrote:


Would I be considered rude if I asked you to continue this
particular thread off board?


Thanks, Joe. As you saw, I took it off the list once but David had to
bring it right back. It looks to me as if he just wants to annoy
people, so I've contacted Russ about it.

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
instructions.




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--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/


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Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread James Farrell
I just joined today and am considering leaving already.

2008/8/5 Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On
  Behalf Of David Fuller - magickweb
  Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:55 AM
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Subject: RE: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning
 was
  Extra white line on the top of my list
 
  I spend my development time actually working on client sites...
 
  How I spend my time is none of your concern - If your going to start
 getting
  all antsy and narcissistic then its showing your not professional...

 David,

 Why sending this to the list?
 I replied *off-list* to one of your post yesterday saying that keeping the
 noise to a minimum is something we should all try to do, but you don't seem
 to care. I'd agree that the post you replied to should not have been sent
 to
 the list either, but still.
 Please think twice before hitting the send button.

 Thank you.

 PS: sorry for the extra noise


 --
 Regards,
 Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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[WSG] Employment Opportunity: Small County Government Site in Drupal

2008-08-05 Thread James O'Neill
Greetings all,

*I posted the following on the Drupal Forums and I will post it here as well
for your consideration:*

Currently, we are working towards bids for a full site developed, including
back-end database work and, potentially, custom mods and content types. I
have a page layout and design already coded up and that can be used as a
very strong base to work from, so most of that work is already done. We
would need that turned into a theme and spruced up a bit. Perhaps some
graphics work can be done as well as other suggestions that you may have.

First, I would like parties that are interested to please email their
interest (off list) along with samples of their work. The first criteria for
acceptance is web standards. If you or your company produces valid and
semantic code with Drupal I would like to see that as a start for
consideration. If your samples are not perfect but you have reasons please
post that as well and that will be taken into consideration.


Later on, once we have more specifics figured out, I will post what work and
features are going to be our required and what will be on our wish list.

My previous post will give you an idea as to what we are looking for:
http://drupal.org/node/235342
Our site is currently: http://www.co.sauk.wi.us.

Thank you for your time and patience all,

Jim


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RE: [WSG] Appropriate postings

2008-08-05 Thread Rick Faircloth
 Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group 
 is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting 
 to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort 
 of things.

And I would like to know what a list on any subject is for if not for helping
people understand the most basic principles and application of a give practice.

A list on any topic must embrace all level of participants, beginners and 
advanced, alike.

If one cannot expect to participate in this list and learn CSS, then it needs
to be made known that this is a list for advanced web standards gurus 
only...those who
need to understand something basic need not post...you will only be belittled 
for
your ignorance, not tutored and nurtured in your quest for coding to web 
standards.

My personal opinion is that the moderators need to be more moderate in their
enforcement of list standards.  In other words, chill out a little and let 
this
be a living, breathing community of participants who do think other thoughts 
they'd
like to share or need help on topics that might not fit a tightly screwed 
definition of
web standards, but that don't justify joining another list just to ask a 
question
that is slightly oblique to the main list subject matter.

Anyone who thinks a list about web standards should not first have as its 
mission
to teach and clarify the basics of the tools of standardization, such as CSS, is
mistaken.  Unless expressly stated, a list must cater to the lowest common
denominator of its participants, not the highest.  By doing so, those on the 
bottom
are lifted up, instead of always being pushed down and kept in the dark.

And, yes, I agree with another poster, that there is a great need for a 
Standards Newbie
list, where *all* questions are welcome, if this list won't suffice.

Rick



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael
Horowitz
 Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:16 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings
 
 I look at the list guidelines to see if I am appropriate
 
 http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm where it says the list is
 
 Provide web standards information and assistance to developers...
 
 The mail list covers any topic associated with web standards including:
 
 * Implementing Web Standards - eg: technologies such as HTML, XHTML,
   CSS, DOM, UAAG, RDF, XML, JavaScript and EcmaScript
 
 
 It seems my questions are about implementing Web Standards.  I certainly
 agree with the earlier posters who suggested I make sure to validate
 before posting questions on what I do.  That would have saved some dumb
 questions on my behalf.  I do think we should probably add requiring
 validation before posting How To my sites broken questions to the list.
 
 I also do think that it is possible their are lurkers on my list
 learning web standards and just starting with tableless design who may
 benefit from my questions.  Going back 20 years to college I remember
 feeling like an idiot being the only one to ask a question in class when
 I didn't understand something only to have a half a dozen people thank
 me for my question after class because they were too afraid to ask.  So
 I do believe there are other who may learn from my questions.
 
 There may be a benefit to the group to have multiple mail lists for
 different aspects of Web Standards including a newbie list where people
 can seek help.  I would also be open to having a standard part of a
 subject line like
 Dumb Newbie asking question :)   to allow people who don't want to get
 involved with helping to more easily filter my mail.  I can tell you it
 will probably be 6 months to a year before I can add much more to the
 list besides asking questions so you may just with to use your email
 filter to put my posts to your trash bin and take it out again this time
 next year.
 
 I know I am supposed to thank people off list for help but as long as it
 is part of a longer posting I will just add some thanks for your help.
 I do learn alot from this list both from my questions on the subject I
 just read.
 
 Michael Horowitz
 Your Computer Consultant
 http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
 561-394-9079
 
 
 
 Adam Martin wrote:
  Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group
  is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting
  to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort
  of things.
  - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list
 
 
  In playing I've found using the relative positioning working pretty
  good for me.  Is it just a matter of personal preference what I use
  then?
 
  Thanks for the article I really haven't understood negative margins.
 
  

Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread Scott Elcomb
On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 1:57 PM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I just joined today and am considering leaving already.

It's not usually like this; in fact I think this is the first time
I've seen flames here.

-- 
 Scott Elcomb
 http://www.psema4.com/
 http://www.google.com/reader/shared/14892828400785741937


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Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings

2008-08-05 Thread Jody Tate
I'm a lurker on the list, but primarily because the list, so far, has seemed
like a place where people come for help solving specific, remedial problems
with long-standing (in internet-time) solutions well-documented on the
internet and in books.

On 8/5/08 11:10 AM, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 And I would like to know what a list on any subject is for if not for helping
 people understand the most basic principles and application of a give
 practice.
 A list on any topic must embrace all level of participants, beginners and
 advanced, alike.

If we think of the list as a classroom, a teaching environment, then it's
standard practice to have separate beginning, advanced, etc. classes. At the
university level, for example (in the US), classes at the 100 level tackle
different issues than classes at the 200, 300 and 400 level.

A list on a topic isn't required to embrace all levels of expertise. I've
participated in many mailings lists where some requests for basic help were
considered off-topic. Requests for help when answers can be found by via
searches or reading books were often seen as inappropriate.

I'd advocate (at the risk of sounding snobby), as some have suggested, for
different lists--one to accommodate beginners and another to accommodate
other developers interested, not in help with standards, but in the
standards themselves.

 Anyone who thinks a list about web standards should not first have as its
 mission
 to teach and clarify the basics of the tools of standardization, such as CSS,
 is
 mistaken.  Unless expressly stated, a list must cater to the lowest common
 denominator of its participants, not the highest.  By doing so, those on the
 bottom
 are lifted up, instead of always being pushed down and kept in the dark.

To think a list about web standards doesn't need to have teaching as its
first mission is not mistaken, it's considering that a different goal or
multiple goals might be acceptable.

Web standards are not new, though they may be new to some list users.
Teaching can be a function, but if helping others with the basics is its
sole function, as it's becoming here, it neglects another portion of the
list's members, those who have been using web standards since their
inception and hope to have extended discussions about, for example, XHTML
vs. HTML5, CSS3, current and upcoming browser implementation of standards,
emerging standards and so on.

-jody

--
Jody Tate
http://staff.washington.edu/jtate/






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Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings

2008-08-05 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
On lists like these, newbies can become gurus. And the cycle unselfishly 
gets repeated. :)


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com 




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[WSG] Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? ADMIN

2008-08-05 Thread russ - maxdesign
ADMIN

Enough! This thread has been completely out of line.

The aim of this list, as others have said, is to HELP EACH OTHER. If you
want to abuse people, please use a different list.


THREAD CLOSED

Russ





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[WSG] Marking up a Calendar

2008-08-05 Thread 8bits Media
We currently have a project that includes a calendar in the design.  
The dilemma I currently have, is what is the best way to mark the  
calendar up? Should we use tables, or is it more semantically correct  
these days to use an unordered list?


I'd be very interested to here peoples thoughts on the matter.

Thanks,

Nick Lazar
8bits Media


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Re: [WSG] Marking up a Calendar

2008-08-05 Thread Bruce


8bits Media wrote:

We currently have a project that includes a calendar in the design.  
The dilemma I currently have, is what is the best way to mark the  
calendar up? Should we use tables, or is it more semantically correct  
these days to use an unordered list?


I'd be very interested to here peoples thoughts on the matter.

Thanks,

Nick Lazar
8bits Media


To me a calendar is columns and rows of data, so a table works fine.

Bruce
bkdesign solutions



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[WSG] stupid table question

2008-08-05 Thread kevin mcmonagle
how can I lock down tr / td height so it wont expand to the size of the 
text contained within?

is it possible? something like overflow:hidden for a cell?
thanks
kevin



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Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] Marking up a Calendar

2008-08-05 Thread kevin mcmonagle

theres a good standards based calendar tut here:

http://veerle.duoh.com/blog/comments/a_css_styled_calendar/

-best
kevin



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Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings

2008-08-05 Thread Michael Horowitz
Definitely a hope of mine.   I would really think it might be best to 
use subject headings to allow people who aren't interested in helping to 
skip over posts.


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
On lists like these, newbies can become gurus. And the cycle 
unselfishly gets repeated. :)


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com


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Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] Marking up a Calendar

2008-08-05 Thread 8bits Media
There's a few different opinions out there, but I think I agree with  
the responses from people on the list, tables make more sense.  I  
found this example of a calendar marked up using a list http://www.cssnewbie.com/list-based-css-calendar/ 
  but I think I'll be using a table in this instance.


Nick.

On 6 Aug 2008, at 09:16, kevin mcmonagle wrote:


theres a good standards based calendar tut here:

http://veerle.duoh.com/blog/comments/a_css_styled_calendar/

-best
kevin



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Re: [WSG] Marking up a Calendar

2008-08-05 Thread Joseph Taylor

Definitely a table for a calendar, like:

table
   captionAugust 2008/caption
   thead
  tr
 th scope=colSun/th
 th scope=colMon/th
 th scope=colTue/th
 th scope=colWed/th
 th scope=colThu/th
 th scope=colFri/th
 th scope=colSat/th
  /tr
   /thead
   tbody
  tr
 td1/td
 td2/td
 you get the idea.

We would mark up a calendar as a list only if we weren't planning 
displaying the dates based on the day of the week.  Like a funky 
futuristic calendar.


A time line would be marked up as a list for sure.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Bruce wrote:


8bits Media wrote:

We currently have a project that includes a calendar in the design.  
The dilemma I currently have, is what is the best way to mark the  
calendar up? Should we use tables, or is it more semantically 
correct  these days to use an unordered list?


I'd be very interested to here peoples thoughts on the matter.

Thanks,

Nick Lazar
8bits Media


To me a calendar is columns and rows of data, so a table works fine.

Bruce
bkdesign solutions



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Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] Marking up a Calendar

2008-08-05 Thread James Ellis
A table is a good option for static calendars. i.e a grid. On the flip side, 
using a list based calendar, you'll be able to present it in different ways by 
altering the style rules for the elements, e.g as a pseudo-grid, a list etc 
etc.
And of course, there's no reason why you can't do both options - the data used 
in the calendar is separate to the HTML, right ?

HTH
J

On Wednesday 06 August 2008 10:43:49 8bits Media wrote:
 There's a few different opinions out there, but I think I agree with
 the responses from people on the list, tables make more sense.  I
 found this example of a calendar marked up using a list
 http://www.cssnewbie.com/list-based-css-calendar/ but I think I'll be using
 a table in this instance.

 Nick.




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