Re: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
2008/8/7 Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is one I've never been sure of; should the submit button be in a seperate fieldset, or should it even be in a fieldset at all because it is not a group of fields; it's a button on it's own. For example: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ /fieldset input type=submit/ /form As opposed to: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ input type=submit/ /fieldset /form Hi Paul, in strict (X)HTML documents, the FORM element must only contain block elements [1]. Therefore, an INPUT element as a direct child of FORM would be invalid for documents with strict DTDs. Using transitional DTDs, the FORM element may as well contain inline elements such as INPUT. Apart from considering the validity of the markup in question, the complexity of the form could guide one. In your example with a single text input field one might view the submit button to be part of this same fieldset. In more complex forms, e.g. a feedback form which requires input of name, e-mail, and a textarea for free text, the submit button would rather require its own FIELDSET or DIV or P parent element. Cheers, jens [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FORM -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
Very good point Jens, I didn't realise my doctype was transitional. Sorted that now and the validation problems are there. Yes, I think you're spot on there, most of the forms I have here are just for search, email signup, etc, so no reason I couldn't have them as part of the same fieldset. Cheers Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens Brueckmann Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:00 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset 2008/8/7 Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is one I've never been sure of; should the submit button be in a seperate fieldset, or should it even be in a fieldset at all because it is not a group of fields; it's a button on it's own. For example: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ /fieldset input type=submit/ /form As opposed to: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ input type=submit/ /fieldset /form Hi Paul, in strict (X)HTML documents, the FORM element must only contain block elements [1]. Therefore, an INPUT element as a direct child of FORM would be invalid for documents with strict DTDs. Using transitional DTDs, the FORM element may as well contain inline elements such as INPUT. Apart from considering the validity of the markup in question, the complexity of the form could guide one. In your example with a single text input field one might view the submit button to be part of this same fieldset. In more complex forms, e.g. a feedback form which requires input of name, e-mail, and a textarea for free text, the submit button would rather require its own FIELDSET or DIV or P parent element. Cheers, jens [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FORM -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
To my mind, one of the most pressing questions that needs to be answered in any particular case is: How is the fieldset labelled? If it specifically says something like 'postcode' or maybe 'contact details', and is one of a collection of fieldsets, then the button should probably be outside. If the form is simpler, the fieldset is un-labelled, generically labelled, or the only fieldset, then there is no advantage to moving the submit button outside of the fieldset. Of course, what would be best would be a quick study of what actual screen-readers speak in these cases - does the closing of a fieldset lead the user to believe that is the end of the form? I see little issue with the semantics of the form, since the button will still be contained within that boundary, even if it goes outside a fieldset. (Validity of XHTML being a slightly separate argument, especially if, like me, you never use it.) Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
Hi Mike, Thanks for the reply. When you say fieldset labelled, you mean the legend, right? I've actually not been using a legend tag in this instance because the design doesn't warrant it. Case by case basis I guess. But yes, both you and Jens are right that it depends on the content. Cheers again, Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:30 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset To my mind, one of the most pressing questions that needs to be answered in any particular case is: How is the fieldset labelled? If it specifically says something like 'postcode' or maybe 'contact details', and is one of a collection of fieldsets, then the button should probably be outside. If the form is simpler, the fieldset is un-labelled, generically labelled, or the only fieldset, then there is no advantage to moving the submit button outside of the fieldset. Of course, what would be best would be a quick study of what actual screen-readers speak in these cases - does the closing of a fieldset lead the user to believe that is the end of the form? I see little issue with the semantics of the form, since the button will still be contained within that boundary, even if it goes outside a fieldset. (Validity of XHTML being a slightly separate argument, especially if, like me, you never use it.) Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 3:30 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset To my mind, one of the most pressing questions that needs to be answered in any particular case is: How is the fieldset labelled? If it specifically says something like 'postcode' or maybe 'contact details', and is one of a collection of fieldsets, then the button should probably be outside. If the form is simpler, the fieldset is un-labelled, generically labelled, or the only fieldset, then there is no advantage to moving the submit button outside of the fieldset. Of course, what would be best would be a quick study of what actual screen-readers speak in these cases - does the closing of a fieldset lead the user to believe that is the end of the form? If you mean legend, then I believe its value is spoken before every single lablel contained in the fieldset. As a side note, with the markup example given in this thread I don't think a fieldset is necessary; but one of the advantage of using a fieldset rather than a P or DIV for example is that it creates a new block formatting context, thus it will contain floats. -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
If it's not a field it shouldn't be in a fieldset - which is a set of fields. On Thu, August 7, 2008 10:07 am, Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, This is one I've never been sure of; should the submit button be in a seperate fieldset, or should it even be in a fieldset at all because it is not a group of fields; it's a button on it's own. I usually put groups of fields in a fieldset, then have the submit button on it's own outside of the fieldsets. Would like to know what everyone else does?! For example: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ /fieldset input type=submit/ /form As opposed to: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ input type=submit/ /fieldset /form Any thoughts?! Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
-- Stuart Foulstone. On Fri, August 8, 2008 11:29 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my mind, one of the most pressing questions that needs to be answered in any particular case is: How is the fieldset labelled? If it specifically says something like 'postcode' or maybe 'contact details', and is one of a collection of fieldsets, then the button should probably be outside. If the form is simpler, the fieldset is un-labelled, generically labelled, or the only fieldset, then there is no advantage to moving the submit button outside of the fieldset. Of course, what would be best would be a quick study of what actual screen-readers speak in these cases - does the closing of a fieldset lead the user to believe that is the end of the form? Fieldsets separate related input fields into different sets for ease of comprehension. The closing of a fieldset leads the user to expect another fieldset, a lone input field or a submit button. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
That was my thinking originally Stuart, which is why I put up the post. The submit button isn't part of a group, so I thought it shouldn't be in a fieldset. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 4:36 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset -- Stuart Foulstone. On Fri, August 8, 2008 11:29 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my mind, one of the most pressing questions that needs to be answered in any particular case is: How is the fieldset labelled? If it specifically says something like 'postcode' or maybe 'contact details', and is one of a collection of fieldsets, then the button should probably be outside. If the form is simpler, the fieldset is un-labelled, generically labelled, or the only fieldset, then there is no advantage to moving the submit button outside of the fieldset. Of course, what would be best would be a quick study of what actual screen-readers speak in these cases - does the closing of a fieldset lead the user to believe that is the end of the form? Fieldsets separate related input fields into different sets for ease of comprehension. The closing of a fieldset leads the user to expect another fieldset, a lone input field or a submit button. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
Paul Collins wrote: This is one I've never been sure of; should the submit button be in a seperate fieldset, or should it even be in a fieldset at all because it is not a group of fields; it's a button on it's own. Quote http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET: The FIELDSET element allows authors to group thematically related controls and labels. Your example contains a group of 1 submit button, but there's no reason a form might not have *multiple* action buttons, e.g. clear, reload, 'view as admin', etc. Clearly those would be thematically related. Alternatively, ask yourself if your submit button is thematically related to the contents of any other fieldset. FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Collins Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 8:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset That was my thinking originally Stuart, which is why I put up the post. The submit button isn't part of a group, so I thought it shouldn't be in a fieldset. But there is no need of a fieldset to wrap a label and a text box, these two are not a group of controls. So imho this would make more sense: form div label for=Search/label input id= type=text value=/ input type=submit/ /div /form -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
I want to make sure I understand you are saying that input type really is required to be under fieldset instead of directly under form Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Jens Brueckmann wrote: 2008/8/7 Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is one I've never been sure of; should the submit button be in a seperate fieldset, or should it even be in a fieldset at all because it is not a group of fields; it's a button on it's own. For example: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ /fieldset input type=submit/ /form As opposed to: form fieldset labelSearch/label input type=text value=/ input type=submit/ /fieldset /form Hi Paul, in strict (X)HTML documents, the FORM element must only contain block elements [1]. Therefore, an INPUT element as a direct child of FORM would be invalid for documents with strict DTDs. Using transitional DTDs, the FORM element may as well contain inline elements such as INPUT. Apart from considering the validity of the markup in question, the complexity of the form could guide one. In your example with a single text input field one might view the submit button to be part of this same fieldset. In more complex forms, e.g. a feedback form which requires input of name, e-mail, and a textarea for free text, the submit button would rather require its own FIELDSET or DIV or P parent element. Cheers, jens [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FORM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell
Hi Mike, On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 07:56:38 +1200, you wrote: Honestly, there is no reason to send a simple thanks to the *whole* list. Just a reply to the person you're thanking would be appropriate and wouldn't increase the email overload for thousands of others on this list. Speaking strictly for myself, I do appreciate knowing when a suggestion made on this list actually works or not. So, for me, a simple thanks is useful feedback. Just a FYI -- Your point is valid, too. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
2008/8/8 Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I want to make sure I understand you are saying that input type really is required to be under fieldset instead of directly under form Hi Michael, no, INPUT elements are not required to be inside FIELDSET elements. In (X)HTML documents with strict DTDs, the FORM element must not contain any inline elements as direct children. This means, an INPUT element, which is an inline element, must not be a child of a FORM element. It follows, INPUT elements must be children of block elements. Block elements are listet, e.g. in the HTML 4.01 strict DTD at http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/sgml/dtd.html#block Cheers, jens -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] resetting input boxes
On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 2:16 AM, John Unsworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Bennett wrote: Hi Kevin, It's not clear what you're trying to achieve. Can you give us some more information? Paul Christian Snodgrass wrote: I think he's essentially talking about a CSS reset file, specific to input, to neutralize all of the browser differences. I'm not sure of the specific elements, but just about any CSS reset should handle it. This is the one I prefer: http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/01/reset-reloaded/ Yahoo also has it's own, but it's a lot bigger and I think somewhat of an overkill. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 Having just been working on a series of pages consisting predominately of form elements, including inputs fields/boxes etc, and also using the Eric Meyer reset, it's my experience thus far that the reset does not neutralize all the browser differences. Opera for one seems to treat the sizing of the input boxes differently to Firefox and Safari. Added to that you can differing results depending on the system of measurement you use, ie: em's vs pixel vs percentage, although I'm inclined now to stick to percentage, ensuring the containing div or fieldset is sized consistently across browsers with either em's or px's. I'm not informed or smart enough to know exactly why this is, but suspect that as the browser is applying the OS input elements, in the process it is creating dimensions that go beyond padding and margin. Otherwise the reset would work? Slightly off topic, but still with the Eric Meyer reset, I found that when it declares a universal - background: transparent; - it disabled Safari and IE7 from applying a class to the tr in a table when I tried to Zebra stripe the table rows. I removed it (the univeral reset), and at least in Safari (not yet tested on IE7) it was fixed. Firefox, Opera and Camino all rendered the stripes as expected. Can anyone possibly explain that? 2 quick things: line-height: the ugly henchman lurking in the shadows, ready to strike when margin and padding have been defeated. Eric Meyer's CSS reset is old and outdated. gotta run, hope that helps. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] resetting input boxes
christian wrote: line-height: the ugly henchman lurking in the shadows, ready to strikewhen margin and padding have been defeated. yes exactly that meyer reset addresses line height setting it to 1.5 ems i think, the equivelent of 18pixels. But I dont think he had forms/input boxes in mind when he did that part. Once i figured that out i was able to style my form from hell. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
