[WSG] Joost van Gorsel is out of the office from August 26th till September 14th.

2008-08-27 Thread Joost van Gorsel
Dear Sir, Madam,


Joost van Gorsel will be out of the office starting from 26th of August till 
14th of September.


For urgent matters please contact:




Metro Design Communication B.V.
Delfsestraat 33
3013 AE Rotterdam
T. (+31)10.2800500




With kind regards,

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



[WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Jason Pruim

Good Morning everyone!

 I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a  
picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.


I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this  
isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text  
links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better  
then image maps.


 Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I  
don't know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for  
him since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.


Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!

Thanks everyone!

--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Rob Enslin
Hi Jason,

Why don't you turn the convincing angle up-side-down? Instead of pulling the
'accessibility' pitch focus on the performance and customizability of having
a CSS-driven navigation (accessibility will follow naturally).

Perhaps you could prepare two versions of a similar looking navigation (one
image one css) and run a performance test. Show the results and hopefully
convince your client to choose wisely?

Only a thought.

Rob

2008/8/27 Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Good Morning everyone!

  I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture
 and then use image maps to get to the actual links.

 I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this isn't
 the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text links, styled
 properly with CSS would look just as good if not better then image maps.

  Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't know
 that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him since they
 can't see what the main part of the site is for.

 Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!

 Thanks everyone!

 --

 Jason Pruim
 Raoset Inc.
 Technology Manager
 MQC Specialist
 11287 James St
 Holland, MI 49424
 www.raoset.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]






 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***




-- 
/ Rob Enslin
/ enslin.co.uk
/ twitter.com/robenslin
/ +44759 052 8890


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Schalk Neethling

Very good advice Rob.

Rob Enslin wrote:

Hi Jason,

Why don't you turn the convincing angle up-side-down? Instead of pulling 
the 'accessibility' pitch focus on the performance and customizability 
of having a CSS-driven navigation (accessibility will follow naturally).


Perhaps you could prepare two versions of a similar looking navigation 
(one image one css) and run a performance test. Show the results and 
hopefully convince your client to choose wisely?


Only a thought.

Rob

2008/8/27 Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Good Morning everyone!

 I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.

I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not
better then image maps.

 Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I
don't know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern
for him since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.

Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!

Thanks everyone!

--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com http://www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
***




--
/ Rob Enslin
/ enslin.co.uk http://enslin.co.uk
/ twitter.com/robenslin http://twitter.com/robenslin
/ +44759 052 8890

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1627 - Release Date: 2008/08/22 06:48 AM





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread info

Hi Jason,

I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are  
only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or  
similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation.


For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an  
unordered list:


ul id=nav
li class=img1link1/li
li class=img2link1/li
li class=img3link1/li
/ul

Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then  
set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a


Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and  
width of the link.


Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully  
accessible menu.


Darren Lovelock
Munkyonline.co.uk

Quoting Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Good Morning everyone!

 I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.

I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better
then image maps.

 Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't
know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him
since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.

Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!

Thanks everyone!

--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Ian Chamberlain
Agreed Jason, totally blind users may be small in number but turning away 
those with partial sight could hurt your clients bottom line; the trick is 
to invite in the missing 11% without making the site so boring that 
normal users wander off elsewhere.

Further it may help to widen the accessibility argument; these days for 
example I can often be found slumped in a corner in the evenings with my 
Ipod touch seeking out images for use use on my own and clients sites.

Pre Ipod touch I wandered between two or three such sites looking for 
inspiration; these days I tend to go to just the one place to spend my money 
mainly because my Ipod barfs when faced with Flash or poor design and 
because the site I like just works on the mobile device as well as the 
real mac or various PCs.

Usability and accessibility in action as it were.



- Original Message - 
From: Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: [WSG] Question about accessibility


Good Morning everyone!

  I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.

I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better
then image maps.

  Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I
don't know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for
him since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.

Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!

Thanks everyone!

--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Rick Faircloth
Darren...

I find your comment, I would most certainly not allow the use of
an image map, interesting.

What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your client demands it?

You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a client
wants to do something that you don't like?

Rick

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility
 
 Hi Jason,
 
 I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are
 only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or
 similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation.
 
 For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an
 unordered list:
 
 ul id=nav
 li class=img1link1/li
 li class=img2link1/li
 li class=img3link1/li
 /ul
 
 Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then
 set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a
 
 Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and
 width of the link.
 
 Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully
 accessible menu.
 
 Darren Lovelock
 Munkyonline.co.uk
 
 Quoting Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
  Good Morning everyone!
 
   I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
  picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.
 
  I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
  isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
  links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better
  then image maps.
 
   Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't
  know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him
  since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.
 
  Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!
 
  Thanks everyone!
 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Jason,

I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture 
and then use

image maps to get to the actual links.


That's not necessarily an inaccessible method, not completely anyway. Take 
my MapPop [1] for example. It's a list and CSS driven. works with keyboard. 
Downside is two-fold. Text cannot be resized, goes blind with images off 
(though not to the blind).


As others noted, there are alternatives your client may not be aware of and 
could take a liking to if you show him/her.


- Image replacement [2]. The right technique (not one that hides the text 
offscreen) is largely accessible. Drawback is the text cannot be resized.


- Embedded images. This can be effective. Drawbacks include not being able 
to effectively do a mouseover (though an experimental technique [3] is 
available). The other drawback is text resize. preload images or use sprites 
for best uncached performance.


- Straight CSS backgrounds. This was provided already but if the client can 
be convinced it would be the most accessible method since the text *should* 
be able to be enlarged. No example given by me, but what was provided is 
fine. Can use a separate image (or part of a larger image like a map)


- Images with text. Text to one side, image to the other, sharing the same 
anchor within a list item. No example given.


You might be able to come pretty close to satisfying your client without 
have to pull back too much, and without a huge sacfrifice to access.


Hope this helps.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim

[1] MapPop. This could be close to what's wanted. 
http://green-beast.com/experiments/css_map_pop.php


[2] Dave Shea has a list of techniques. I like the Gilder/Levin method. 
http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/


[3] CSS embedded  image replacement. This is flawed but I bet if a sprite 
was used instead of two images it might just have some merit. 
http://green-beast.com/experiments/css_image_replacement.php





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread info

Hi Rick,

If any client were to tell me how to code their website I would  
probably tell them to go elsewhere. The client is more than likely  
going to be a pain throughout the project and then also when making  
payment.


Obviously this is within reason - design aspects - of course they  
decide. When it comes to the coding, the client most certainly does  
not know best! If they want it to be of a high quality and well  
optimised then I will make it using the best of my abilities. There's  
no reason that they should specify how it is coded, unless they're a  
developer and they need it formatted in a specific way.


This must not be a normal customer anyway if they know about image  
maps. I'm interested to know why they requested it in the first place..


Quoting Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Darren...

I find your comment, I would most certainly not allow the use of
an image map, interesting.

What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your client demands it?

You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a client
wants to do something that you don't like?

Rick


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

Hi Jason,

I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are
only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or
similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation.

For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an
unordered list:

ul id=nav
li class=img1link1/li
li class=img2link1/li
li class=img3link1/li
/ul

Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then
set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a

Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and
width of the link.

Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully
accessible menu.

Darren Lovelock
Munkyonline.co.uk

Quoting Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Good Morning everyone!

  I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
 picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.

 I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
 isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
 links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better
 then image maps.

  Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't
 know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him
 since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.

 Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!

 Thanks everyone!






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Rick Faircloth
You're right about a client like that being a pain in the rear.

I had a client who wanted customers to contact them via email,
but didn't want to use a contact form and didn't want them to just
use a link to email from the website.  He was dead-set against forms
even though they were the answer.  He was so hard to work with, I
eventually cut him loose.  (Glad I got 50% of the cost up front! :o)

I imagine this image-map client was just after a certain look and
had been told by someone that an image map was the answer and wasn't
open to other solutions which are better and provide the same results.

Rick

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility
 
 Hi Rick,
 
 If any client were to tell me how to code their website I would
 probably tell them to go elsewhere. The client is more than likely
 going to be a pain throughout the project and then also when making
 payment.
 
 Obviously this is within reason - design aspects - of course they
 decide. When it comes to the coding, the client most certainly does
 not know best! If they want it to be of a high quality and well
 optimised then I will make it using the best of my abilities. There's
 no reason that they should specify how it is coded, unless they're a
 developer and they need it formatted in a specific way.
 
 This must not be a normal customer anyway if they know about image
 maps. I'm interested to know why they requested it in the first place..
 
 Quoting Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
  Darren...
 
  I find your comment, I would most certainly not allow the use of
  an image map, interesting.
 
  What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your client demands it?
 
  You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a client
  wants to do something that you don't like?
 
  Rick
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility
 
  Hi Jason,
 
  I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are
  only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or
  similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation.
 
  For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an
  unordered list:
 
  ul id=nav
  li class=img1link1/li
  li class=img2link1/li
  li class=img3link1/li
  /ul
 
  Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then
  set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a
 
  Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and
  width of the link.
 
  Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully
  accessible menu.
 
  Darren Lovelock
  Munkyonline.co.uk
 
  Quoting Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
   Good Morning everyone!
  
I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
   picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.
  
   I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
   isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
   links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better
   then image maps.
  
Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't
   know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him
   since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.
  
   Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!
  
   Thanks everyone!
  
 
 
 
 
  ***
  List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
  Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  ***
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***
 
 
 No virus found in this incoming message.
 Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
 Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1637 - Release Date: 8/27/2008 
 7:01 AM



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Jason Pruim
Honestly, I think he just wants a very specific look... He also thinks  
it looks neater then using plain txt


I'll talk to him about it and let him know about the possible down  
falls with the whole thing... After I read up on image maps that is :)  
I'm assuming they rely on some sort of client side script? But I  
haven't googled yet so feel free to ignore the question :)



On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


You're right about a client like that being a pain in the rear.

I had a client who wanted customers to contact them via email,
but didn't want to use a contact form and didn't want them to just
use a link to email from the website.  He was dead-set against forms
even though they were the answer.  He was so hard to work with, I
eventually cut him loose.  (Glad I got 50% of the cost up front! :o)

I imagine this image-map client was just after a certain look and
had been told by someone that an image map was the answer and wasn't
open to other solutions which are better and provide the same results.

Rick


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

Hi Rick,

If any client were to tell me how to code their website I would
probably tell them to go elsewhere. The client is more than likely
going to be a pain throughout the project and then also when making
payment.

Obviously this is within reason - design aspects - of course they
decide. When it comes to the coding, the client most certainly does
not know best! If they want it to be of a high quality and well
optimised then I will make it using the best of my abilities. There's
no reason that they should specify how it is coded, unless they're a
developer and they need it formatted in a specific way.

This must not be a normal customer anyway if they know about image
maps. I'm interested to know why they requested it in the first  
place..


Quoting Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Darren...

I find your comment, I would most certainly not allow the use of
an image map, interesting.

What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your client  
demands it?


You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a  
client

wants to do something that you don't like?

Rick


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

Hi Jason,

I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are
only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or
similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary  
navigation.


For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an
unordered list:

ul id=nav
li class=img1link1/li
li class=img2link1/li
li class=img3link1/li
/ul

Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links  
then
set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor -  
li.img? a


Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and
width of the link.

Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully
accessible menu.

Darren Lovelock
Munkyonline.co.uk

Quoting Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Good Morning everyone!

I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.

I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that  
this
isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice  
text
links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not  
better

then image maps.

Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I  
don't
know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for  
him

since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.

Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!

Thanks everyone!






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1637 - Release Date:  
8/27/2008 7:01 AM




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: 

Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Joseph Taylor
People have already said this, but an unordered list, a little css and 
some sprites allow for very graphically rich navigation that is usable 
in almost all circumstances.  I have been putting image replaced 
navigation on all my sites for some time.  You could even use a big 
photograph.


Posting what you're trying to do will get you better answers than basic 
generic responses like this.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Jason Pruim wrote:
Honestly, I think he just wants a very specific look... He also thinks 
it looks neater then using plain txt


I'll talk to him about it and let him know about the possible down 
falls with the whole thing... After I read up on image maps that is :) 
I'm assuming they rely on some sort of client side script? But I 
haven't googled yet so feel free to ignore the question :)



On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


You're right about a client like that being a pain in the rear.

I had a client who wanted customers to contact them via email,
but didn't want to use a contact form and didn't want them to just
use a link to email from the website.  He was dead-set against forms
even though they were the answer.  He was so hard to work with, I
eventually cut him loose.  (Glad I got 50% of the cost up front! :o)

I imagine this image-map client was just after a certain look and
had been told by someone that an image map was the answer and wasn't
open to other solutions which are better and provide the same results.

Rick


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

Hi Rick,

If any client were to tell me how to code their website I would
probably tell them to go elsewhere. The client is more than likely
going to be a pain throughout the project and then also when making
payment.

Obviously this is within reason - design aspects - of course they
decide. When it comes to the coding, the client most certainly does
not know best! If they want it to be of a high quality and well
optimised then I will make it using the best of my abilities. There's
no reason that they should specify how it is coded, unless they're a
developer and they need it formatted in a specific way.

This must not be a normal customer anyway if they know about image
maps. I'm interested to know why they requested it in the first place..

Quoting Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Darren...

I find your comment, I would most certainly not allow the use of
an image map, interesting.

What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your client demands 
it?


You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a 
client

wants to do something that you don't like?

Rick


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

Hi Jason,

I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are
only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or
similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation.

For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an
unordered list:

ul id=nav
li class=img1link1/li
li class=img2link1/li
li class=img3link1/li
/ul

Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then
set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a

Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and
width of the link.

Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully
accessible menu.

Darren Lovelock
Munkyonline.co.uk

Quoting Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Good Morning everyone!

I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.

I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not 
better

then image maps.

Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I 
don't

know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him
since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.

Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!

Thanks everyone!






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***








Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Tim Offenstein

At 6:37 AM -0400 8/27/08, Jason Pruim wrote:

Good Morning everyone!

 I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a 
picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.


I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this 
isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text 
links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not 
better then image maps.


 Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I 
don't know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern 
for him since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.




Just to clarify, strictly speaking in terms of accessibility, if 
redundant text links are provided elsewhere on the page, image maps 
are not a hindrance to blind users because they have an alternate 
method of navigating.


But of course the many excellent suggestions regarding a more 
efficient way of coding the site are definitely the way to go. 
Besides, images maps are a royal pain to maintain.


-Tim
--

   Tim Offenstein  ***  Campus Accessibility Liaison  ***  (217) 244-2700
CITES Departmental Services  ***  www.uiuc.edu/goto/offenstein



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Ted Drake
It's not too difficult to use CSS to turn a list of links into an image
map. Just give the ul the image as a background and position relative.
You can then define the size and absolute position of each list item and
position the text off screen.

This still isn't as accessible as a simple list, but it can work.

Another approach is to have a simple text nav. You could then put an empty
span in each link and position/size/display:block the spans to sit on top of
the image map. I think Andy Budd first described the disjointed rollover
with CSS. This gives you the fully accessible text links as well as the
fancy image map. You can put a title on the link to have it appear when
someone hovers over the link in the image map (not IE). You could also put a
hover change on the spans a:hover span {background-position: foo bar;}

By the way, the normal text links could be in the footer and the image map
in the header with careful use of positioning.

Ted

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joseph Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 8:37 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

People have already said this, but an unordered list, a little css and 
some sprites allow for very graphically rich navigation that is usable 
in almost all circumstances.  I have been putting image replaced 
navigation on all my sites for some time.  You could even use a big 
photograph.

Posting what you're trying to do will get you better answers than basic 
generic responses like this.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Jason Pruim wrote:
 Honestly, I think he just wants a very specific look... He also thinks 
 it looks neater then using plain txt

 I'll talk to him about it and let him know about the possible down 
 falls with the whole thing... After I read up on image maps that is :) 
 I'm assuming they rely on some sort of client side script? But I 
 haven't googled yet so feel free to ignore the question :)


 On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:

 You're right about a client like that being a pain in the rear.

 I had a client who wanted customers to contact them via email,
 but didn't want to use a contact form and didn't want them to just
 use a link to email from the website.  He was dead-set against forms
 even though they were the answer.  He was so hard to work with, I
 eventually cut him loose.  (Glad I got 50% of the cost up front! :o)

 I imagine this image-map client was just after a certain look and
 had been told by someone that an image map was the answer and wasn't
 open to other solutions which are better and provide the same results.

 Rick

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

 Hi Rick,

 If any client were to tell me how to code their website I would
 probably tell them to go elsewhere. The client is more than likely
 going to be a pain throughout the project and then also when making
 payment.

 Obviously this is within reason - design aspects - of course they
 decide. When it comes to the coding, the client most certainly does
 not know best! If they want it to be of a high quality and well
 optimised then I will make it using the best of my abilities. There's
 no reason that they should specify how it is coded, unless they're a
 developer and they need it formatted in a specific way.

 This must not be a normal customer anyway if they know about image
 maps. I'm interested to know why they requested it in the first place..

 Quoting Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Darren...

 I find your comment, I would most certainly not allow the use of
 an image map, interesting.

 What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your client demands 
 it?

 You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a 
 client
 wants to do something that you don't like?

 Rick

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

 Hi Jason,

 I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are
 only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or
 similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation.

 For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an
 unordered list:

 ul id=nav
 li class=img1link1/li
 li class=img2link1/li
 li class=img3link1/li
 /ul

 Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then
 set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor 

Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Nancy Johnson
I dislike image maps as there are so many better ways to do
navigtation.  However, client side image maps are 508 compliant and
accessible if coded correctly.  Server side image maps are not.
see this article in  http://www.webaim.org/techniques/images/alt_text.php#maps

Nancy

On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Tim Offenstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 At 6:37 AM -0400 8/27/08, Jason Pruim wrote:

 Good Morning everyone!

  I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture
 and then use image maps to get to the actual links.

 I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this isn't
 the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text links, styled
 properly with CSS would look just as good if not better then image maps.

  Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't
 know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him since
 they can't see what the main part of the site is for.


 Just to clarify, strictly speaking in terms of accessibility, if redundant
 text links are provided elsewhere on the page, image maps are not a
 hindrance to blind users because they have an alternate method of
 navigating.

 But of course the many excellent suggestions regarding a more efficient way
 of coding the site are definitely the way to go. Besides, images maps are a
 royal pain to maintain.

 -Tim
 --
 
   Tim Offenstein  ***  Campus Accessibility Liaison  ***  (217) 244-2700
CITES Departmental Services  ***  www.uiuc.edu/goto/offenstein
 


 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread David Hucklesby
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:37:06 -0400, Jason Pruim wrote:
 Good Morning everyone!

 I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture and 
 then use
 image maps to get to the actual links.

 I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this isn't the 
 best way
 to do it? I personally think that some nice text links, styled properly with 
 CSS would
 look just as good if not better then image maps.


Off the top of my head, I'd suggest adding a subsidiary list of text
links in addition to the image map. I do agree an actual image map
would be a step backward. Here is one alternative:

 http://www.alistapart.com/articles/imagemap

Stuart Robertson wrote, in that December 2003 article:
I thought about image maps. They were horribly outdated

As some replies have suggested, there are more techniques that are
fairly accessible under a variety of conditions.

Should you decide to make the attempt to satisfy your client, perhaps
you could return here with a mock-up and a description of what you
want to achieve? I feel sure we could help, given a specific problem
to tackle.

Good luck with your efforts.

Cordially,
David
--



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread David Hucklesby
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:37:06 -0400, Jason Pruim wrote:
 Good Morning everyone!

 I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture and 
 then use
 image maps to get to the actual links.

 I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this isn't the 
 best way
 to do it? I personally think that some nice text links, styled properly with 
 CSS would
 look just as good if not better then image maps.


Off the top of my head, I'd suggest adding a subsidiary list of text
links in addition to the image map. I do agree an actual image map
would be a step backward. Here is one alternative:

 http://www.alistapart.com/articles/imagemap

Stuart Robertson wrote, in that December 2003 article:
I thought about image maps. They were horribly outdated

As some replies have suggested, there are more techniques that are
fairly accessible under a variety of conditions.

Should you decide to make the attempt to satisfy your client, perhaps
you could return here with a mock-up and a description of what you
want to achieve? I feel sure we could help, given a specific problem
to tackle.

Good luck with your efforts.

Cordially,
David
--



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread fernando
Hi

WebAIM have articles about Accessibility.

http://www.webaim.org/intro

see

http://www.webaim.org/articles/vis_vs_cog/


and example : http://www.peepo.com/


Good luck

Fernando



- Original Message - 
From: David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jason Pruim wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility


On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:37:06 -0400, Jason Pruim wrote:
 Good Morning everyone!

 I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture
and then use
 image maps to get to the actual links.

 I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this isn't
the best way
 to do it? I personally think that some nice text links, styled properly
with CSS would
 look just as good if not better then image maps.


Off the top of my head, I'd suggest adding a subsidiary list of text
links in addition to the image map. I do agree an actual image map
would be a step backward. Here is one alternative:

 http://www.alistapart.com/articles/imagemap

Stuart Robertson wrote, in that December 2003 article:
I thought about image maps. They were horribly outdated

As some replies have suggested, there are more techniques that are
fairly accessible under a variety of conditions.

Should you decide to make the attempt to satisfy your client, perhaps
you could return here with a mock-up and a description of what you
want to achieve? I feel sure we could help, given a specific problem
to tackle.

Good luck with your efforts.

Cordially,
David
--



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



[WSG] Internet Explorer 8 Beta 2 Now Available

2008-08-27 Thread russ - maxdesign
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/08/27/internet-explorer-8-beta-2-now-a
vailable.aspx


Thanks
Russ




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Jens Nedal
Even if the text replacement should not look as satisfying as using a
whole big image with image maps on it, you can still split up that image
 into the navigation part and use image replacement techniques where the
Text is still preserved. Since most of those techniques hide the Text
and put the images as background images, the load will be minimized once
those images are placed in the browser cache.

The idea with the 2 examples to compare is spot on. The only difference
that might be seen is missing text anti-aliasing on some browsers, if
its either not supported by the operating system or turned off by
default (like Clear-type in Windows XP).

regards, Jens



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***




Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread chris . block
Return Receipt
   
   Your   Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility   
   document:   
   
   wasChris Block/PGG/Cummins  
   received
   by: 
   
   at:08/28/2008 12:02:44 AM CDT   
   






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***