Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute

2008-11-03 Thread Joe Ortenzi

I think that was the point of both myself and Dave, Todd.
Mark's vitriolic rant seemed to miss the point that the technology  
comes after you discover what the business requires, what their  
resources are, what the requirements of the site will be over the next  
12-24 months, etc. not just say OK to contribute because the client  
says so before discovering much more important things


And as for budget, well, Contribute at $99 is more expensive than many  
CMSs (twice the cost of the powerful EE and $99 more than Drupal).


As you say, a god consultant will discover why they want Contribute  
and, upon discovering those needs, either continue with Contribute or  
offer a solution that meets their needs better, should that be the  
case, but it is the needs of the project that need to be discovered  
first, I'd have thought.


Joe


On 03/11/2008, at 12:21 AM, Todd Budnikas wrote:

with respect to both sides here, I have had numerous clients come to  
me
requesting Contribute as a solution. I would say the reason, in  
every case
i believe, is the cost. It's a 1 time fee of $99. I imagine, that if  
you
can offer something comparable or cheaper to them, they would  
appreciate
the  recommendation and scrap Contribute if the other product(s)  
worked

better, were easier to maintain and implement, etc.

I would guess here that the client isn't dictating technology, but  
budget
for CMS. I mean, what are the chances they've used a bunch of  
solutions,

and settled that Contribute is the best and meets their workflow?

My recommendation is to try something like http://www.cushycms.com/  
which

is also free and is a hosted solution. I've used this with pretty good
success. It's not without it's limitation, but it's extremely easy  
to use
and met the needs of one of my clients. You obviously could go with  
a more

common solution like Expression Engine, or Wordpress, etc.

I would find out why your client wants to use Contribute, and if you'd
rather not use it, then your job is to find something comparable or  
better

(hopefully for the same cost or less) and state your case.


Mark Harris wrote:

Joe Ortenzi wrote:

Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about
allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS
deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write
but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0,
and your time and their money is better served by getting a  
simple CMS
deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be  
easier

to manage for everyone, client included.


With respect, this is so much bollocks.

The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can  
offer
her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to  
tell the

client you have to do it this way.

Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one  
person
to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some  
outfits
are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web  
and need

baby steps.

While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag  
them

kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for.

Regards

Mark Harris




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Joseph Ortenzi
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Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute

2008-11-03 Thread Susan Grossman
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:53 AM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 Hi Guys,

 A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management.

 Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute
 butcher the code anyway?

 Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html
 files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime
 navigation changes etc.

 James


I do free work for non-profits, and many of them ask about using
Contribute.  A CMS won't work for them because most of them have a small
existing website that they got someone to do at some point in the last few
years and they're trying to change it/add to it/figure out how to do
anything to it.  They aren't willing to start from scratch and have a CMS
set up for them, nor do the volunteers want to learn all about editing in a
role based application, no matter how easy it is.  These are the people who
Contribute is a lifesaver for.  I go in and clean up their stuff, make it
into PHP and design includes they can't accidently edit and show them how to
use Contribute by surfing to their web site and clicking the Contribute
button.  TaDa - they can edit, sans butchering.

Yes there are better solutions out there, but there's nothing wrong with
this solution.  I don't feel it's my job to tell them that I won't help them
unless they get on board with the latest and greatest.  I'm here to help
them make sure their web site is accessible and that they can change text on
the few pages they'll update.

For me, the client is always right.  They know their business, their people,
their limitations.  That doesn't mean I can't say, Yes, though we could
also do that by    but in the end, they make the final decisions and a
lot of the time I don't agree on everything, but they call the shots, and we
have to be gracious.  I try to teach as I go , but I don't force my clients
to learn if they don't want to.  And you might be surprised how many don't
want to.



-- 
Susan R. Grossman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute

2008-11-03 Thread James Farrell
Hi Guys,

Thank your for your insights and assistance on this topic.

I am taking everyone's opinion into consideration and have received very
usefull help and templates from several people.

James

2008/11/3 Susan Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:53 AM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 Hi Guys,

 A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management.

 Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute
 butcher the code anyway?

 Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include
 html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime
 navigation changes etc.

 James


 I do free work for non-profits, and many of them ask about using
 Contribute.  A CMS won't work for them because most of them have a small
 existing website that they got someone to do at some point in the last few
 years and they're trying to change it/add to it/figure out how to do
 anything to it.  They aren't willing to start from scratch and have a CMS
 set up for them, nor do the volunteers want to learn all about editing in a
 role based application, no matter how easy it is.  These are the people who
 Contribute is a lifesaver for.  I go in and clean up their stuff, make it
 into PHP and design includes they can't accidently edit and show them how to
 use Contribute by surfing to their web site and clicking the Contribute
 button.  TaDa - they can edit, sans butchering.

 Yes there are better solutions out there, but there's nothing wrong with
 this solution.  I don't feel it's my job to tell them that I won't help them
 unless they get on board with the latest and greatest.  I'm here to help
 them make sure their web site is accessible and that they can change text on
 the few pages they'll update.

 For me, the client is always right.  They know their business, their
 people, their limitations.  That doesn't mean I can't say, Yes, though we
 could also do that by    but in the end, they make the final decisions
 and a lot of the time I don't agree on everything, but they call the shots,
 and we have to be gracious.  I try to teach as I go , but I don't force my
 clients to learn if they don't want to.  And you might be surprised how many
 don't want to.



 --
 Susan R. Grossman
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute

2008-11-03 Thread Joe Ortenzi
Mark, you seem to misunderstand what Dave and I are saying and maybe  
you so angry about something you can't even see you're contradicting  
yourself and claiming dave and I are saying different things when your  
examples, reflected back at us, clearly show paralell, not conflicting  
statements.


In addition you seem to think I swan into an organisation and tell  
them how to run THEIR business, which is the last thing I do. As Dave  
says, a good website provider works in partnership with a business,  
and discovers and recommends technology that gets these business needs  
covered,


You are confusing two sets of business aims, one is the client  
requiring a website that serves his business aims and two a supplier  
of said website who's business aim is to be paid for a good service to  
the client, which sometimes means giving them what they need (by  
working in close consultation with them) rather than what they think  
they want, which as you seem to be saying, they may not necessarily  
know, if their business knowledge is not about the web.


And you know, my mechanic WILL tell me how to drive my car if I'm  
doing it wrong. stop riding the clutch, shift gears at a lower rev  
to save petrol, let the engine warm for a few moments before giving  
it a load, are all things you pay your mechanic good money for so  
your car runs better for longer, the expert advice he is good for.


Mark, you misread both myself and Dave terribly badly.

Joe


On 02/11/2008, at 9:41 PM, Mark Harris wrote:


Dave Lane wrote:

I'm sorry, Mark, but that is not a winning strategy in business.
Dave, the business decision is not that of the web designer. While  
web design may be his business, it's not the business of his client.



As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability.  Anything
else is a disservice to both your business and your customer.


Not arguing, but it must also work for the client, otherwise you are  
merely building ongoing work for yourself, in doing the maintenance.  
Offer options, by all means, but the result *must* be within the  
client's capability set or it won't get used. How much value have  
you then added to the client's business by imposing your own ideas  
on their naivety?



The
customer is not always right.  The customer hires you because they
perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your  
skill and

judgement on their behalf.  If they don't have that respect for your
ability, they're not the right customer for you.


Fine. Say so and get out, but if you take the job, you take the  
constraints and responsibilities that come with it.



I'm not saying that
you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the
shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages  
of

the tools you've chosen...  if you can't do that then you probably
haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools.

That's not what Joe was advising. What he said was:
you should never let the client specify the technology,
that's YOUR job The technology you decide to deploy should
be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a
project and identified the resources for ongoing content
and support.

which is a pretty tall ask for a web designer, not to mention  
arrogant. Do you get your mechanic to tell you how to drive your  
car? He's far more experienced with vehicles than you, so he should  
know, right?



Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set
possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then  
maintain
those skills for the length of their relationship with their  
customers.
See, it's the whole become expert with them that's the problem.  
They don't have the desire to become expert in something that is a  
commodity to them. Many companies don't have web specialists on  
staff. If they're lucky, they have a librarian, who does records  
management, maybe a little DTP and gets stuff onto the web. They  
don't *want* a web designer on board, or they'd be hiring one  
instead of farming the work out to you.


If that's how they see it, that's their business. Myself, I'd try to  
get them to see that it's a major strategic part of their future  
business *but* if they won't go there, I'm going to build them  
something they feel comfortable with, with an outline of what it  
could become, if appropriate. I'm not going to push a company into  
Web 2.0 if they still believe a little man sits in the printer  
pushing out paper.



I completely agree with Joe's statement - using an app like  
Contribute

is a step backwards in most cases, both for the customer and for the
web.


If it works for them, it's their call. A simple site set up by  
someone who knows what they're doing can be managed just fine with  
Contribute. It's not likely to win any awards (and it probably won't  
do a lot for their bottom line) but we don't always get to paint the  
Mona Lisa. Sometimes, 

[WSG] I am away on leave [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2008-11-03 Thread nathan.franklin
I am away on leave returning on Monday, 10 November 2008, if you have a
request for Customs web admin please send it to
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Nathan Franklin
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[WSG] another form question

2008-11-03 Thread tee
1) wrap the input inside 'label' is bad practice - so I have not done  
that for years.

2) learned that 'button' is better over the 'input' for submit
3) Will wrapping button inside 'label' is: a) OK - no ill effect  
whatsoever; b) very good; c) bad- never do that.


example 1:
fieldset
legendspanSearch Site/span/legend
   input id=search type=text name=q value= /
  label for=search
 button id=searchbtnSearch/button
/label
 /fieldset

example: 2 (give a label empty tag)
fieldset
legendspanSearch Site/span/legend
   label for=search /label
   input id=search type=text name=q value= /
   button id=searchbtnSearch/button
/fieldset


tee





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Re: [WSG] button name present and some CSS issues

2008-11-03 Thread Taco Fleur
Thanks Thierry,

Indeed the problem lies with IE6.

It gets worse though, Internet Explorer 6 has a further bug where it will
treat all button elements as successful controls, and submit their data to
the server, even if they were not clicked. This effectively makes using
multiple button elements impossible.

Back to using input type=submit buttons for now.

The *position: relative* trick also worked.

thanks a lot.

-- 
Kind regards,
Taco Fleur
clickfind™ - The new Australian Online Marketing Platform (OMP)
http://www.onlinemarketingplatform.com.au
http://www.clickfind.com.au


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