RE: [WSG] Browser / OS Test on website.

2009-01-14 Thread Paul Collins
Hi Danny,

The site looks great, just had a quick flick through. My only suggestion would 
be to repeat the main navigation at the bottom of each section, so you don't 
have to go back to the top every time you've read the section.

Cheers
Paul



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Danny Croft
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:03 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Browser / OS Test on website.

Hi All,

I was wondering if any of you get a spare minute, could you cast your 
professional eyes over a site I just put online. Its only a small online resume 
type site. But I'd be interested to see if anyone could find any issues with it 
or had any suggestions for items that I may have missed. I have done some 
testing and it passed the online W3C Validation Service for both the markup and 
CSS. Also if anyone is running an OS other than OSX (v 10.5.6) then I'd be 
interested in your results on any of the current browers.

Like I said, only if you get a minute.

Link: http://dannythewebdev.com   (almost forgot to add the link)

Cheers,

Danny

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RE: [WSG] Browser / OS Test on website.

2009-01-14 Thread Foskett, Mike
Hi Danny,

 

Just one issue on the usage of headings.

Try to use only one h1 tag at the beginning of the content.

It's an accessibility thing.

Follow that with h2 etc.

 

Mike Foskett

http://websemantics.co.uk/

 

 



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Danny Croft
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:03 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Browser / OS Test on website.

Hi All, 

I was wondering if any of you get a spare minute, could you cast your
professional eyes over a site I just put online. Its only a small online
resume type site. But I'd be interested to see if anyone could find any
issues with it or had any suggestions for items that I may have missed.
I have done some testing and it passed the online W3C Validation Service
for both the markup and CSS. Also if anyone is running an OS other than
OSX (v 10.5.6) then I'd be interested in your results on any of the
current browers. 

Like I said, only if you get a minute. 

Link: http://dannythewebdev.com   (almost forgot to add the link)

Cheers, 

Danny

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Re: [WSG] Checking My Page

2009-01-14 Thread James Jeffery
I thinks it's worth reminding everyone on the list that Marvin is actually a
blind web developer.

Personally Marvin I would stick with plain vanilla HTML with no styles at
all. Get rid of the Javascript and focus your time into developing and
marking up some rich content.

Never the less, given your circumstances I have to give you praise for your
work.

Btw. I am still trying to locate that paper I write for you. As soon as I
find it I will email it over. Having to search to the works backup server as
it's not on the system.

James

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:18 AM, Luke Hoggett luke.hogg...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi Marvin,

 Wow a flash back to web design circa 1997.

 Well it does pass XHTML transitional, so  plus there.

 In terms of css errors well you really shouldn't be placing styling
 information in id attributes i.e. id=Borg; width: 400px; margin: 1%
 auto;

 Your positioning breaks (text and images in the wrong places) when the
 window is resized.

 Frankly I haven't seen such a bad design in years, the only way you could
 make it better is to add this style to the css
 * {text-decoration: blink}

 Check out some css gallery sites for better design ideas. Do the original
 design as an image in Photoshop or similar, then cut up the xhtml and css
 working from your design.

 Also this isn't a help desk
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

 best regards
 Luke

  Marvin Hunkin wrote:

 Hi.
 Thanks to Mark Harris, he put my files up on his server.
 so, will post the url for feedback.
 the main problem, i have is the styles.css and the navlinks.css.
 so can people take a look, and show me how to fix some of the errors in the
 css sheets i have.
 and also general feedback, not so much on content, pretty happy with the
 content and the message.
 now, formatting, colours, background, etc.
 all comments, suggestions, and complaints are welcome.
 cheers Marvin.

 ps: so here's the url to the site.
 http://tracs.co.nz/marvin/
 E-mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
 MSN: sttartrekc...@msn.com
 Skype: startrekcafe
 We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile!
 Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One




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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason
-Original Message-
From:f Hassan Schroeder

Christie Mason wrote:

 Yes, I've tried Flex and abandoned the effort.

 ...  Plus, there's the maintenance issue.  Simple example I always
 use is what if you had to change a corporate logo in every Flash file?  To
 do that with a dynamic database approach you change the file once and
that's
 it.  To change it in every Flash file...

HS .. you do exactly the same thing, because it's not in every Flash
file at all.

CM - I wasn't talking about Flex.  I was referring to Flash.  I can see that
I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts.

HS Yes, you obviously didn't get very far with Flex -- so, why are you
arguing the (de)merits of a technology you don't understand?

CM -  Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone else.
What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with
links to graphics, video/Flash, etc using PHP, ASP (scripts) or ASP.NET
(framework)?  Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?), but I
also haven't been looking for it.  As a user of Cold Fusion many years ago
I'd also be interested in learning more about its current market share.  How
is AIR doing?  At first AIR was intriguing but then I haven't met any need
that it fulfilled.

Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
towards using Macs and Flash.  It's fine to be visually oriented, I'm not
using it as a judgment call because I think it's just as difficult for
highly visual people to remember that not everyone shares their preference
as it is for those that aren't highly visual to remember to use graphics for
those that are highly visual.

I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a
graph.  I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's
been my experience than when people start focusing on making the
interface/content flash around, then usability is degraded and content
quality is decreased because first the budget bucks go towards make it
sing/dance before taking the time to build a solid structure that easily
creates and maintains useful content.

So back to the original, still unanswered question.  What are the advantages
of using Flash (Flex etal)?

Christie Mason



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[WSG] Image with borders due to Anchor tag

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
Hi all,

I do not know if this has been asked before, and if it has I apologize for
asking again, but consider the following code:

a href=http://www.mozilla.org; class=small-namesimg
src=images/mozillalogos/mozilla/mozillafoundation.png alt=Mozilla
Foundation title=Mozilla Foundation style=border: none; //a

Inside the img tag there is an inline style that declares that the image
have no border. I used the inline style here, in this case, to show the
example. It was my understanding that the anchor tag added the border to the
image, mostly due to the underline added by using the anchor tag.

So, my question is this. Why does the image tag have to have the border
placed on it, instead of placing the border or text-decoration styles on the
anchor tag?

--
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] Checking My Page

2009-01-14 Thread Susan Grossman


 ps: so here's the url to the site.

 http://tracs.co.nz/marvin/
 E-mail http://tracs.co.nz/marvin/E-mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
 MSN: sttartrekc...@msn.com
 Skype: startrekcafe
 We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile!
 Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One


It's not as bad as it appears on first glance, in fact a few simple
corrections can make this a site with graphics that work.  Here are some
simple suggestions that's just one way to make this work.

1)  Don't have an image over the background.  The background is a good image
but it is complex, there's a lot of things going on in it so it's important
to see the whole image without another image on top of it.  If you need a
logo, consider putting it into the Header area, which doesn't conflict with
the background - and keep it small and simple.

2)  Once the image is removed, use margin-bottom on the header to push the
next text down an allow viewing of the background image (anywhere around
3.5-5.5em depending on the look you wish to achieve)

3)  You need to use a clear method after your navigation bar and get rid of
the JS, it doesn't add any value

4)  Add a little more spacing between your nav and the next text, make your
text smaller and center your division better.

That should get you going on a page that you can work with and is
pleasing/interesting to those who are into the space thingy,  obviously
not me  grin


-- 
Susan R. Grossman
susan.rgross...@gmail.com


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
I hope I can throw my 2 cents in. Not trying to argue, but to TRY and answer
some questions.

 A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of
 using Flash? There's been no answer to that question.  I was hoping to
 learn
 some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely
 used
 in eLearning.


Okay, first this part of the answer. There are different types of ways that
people learn. I suggest reading:

http://www.worldwidelearn.com/education-articles/how-do-you-learn.htm

or

http://www.google.com/search?q=types+of+learningsourceid=navclient-ffie=UTF-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303

the above is a quick search.

But in other ways, there have been found different ways besides the three
listed in the first link. Interaction. Here is an interaction information
link, it is in pdf:

http://www.sloan-c.org/publications/books/interactions.pdf

and to search:

http://www.google.com/search?q=interaction+learningsourceid=navclient-ffie=UTF-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303

there are a lot of other different, informative links on that search.

Interaction is one the greatest styles of learning there is, in my opinion
(don't jump at that, because it is just my opinion, although I must stress
that my opinion mainly depends on the subject being taught). Flash can help
tremendously with interaction, although that is not the only way. An
excellently developed Flash eLearning solution will add a lot of different
types of learning solutions to it. Most do. In an excellently developed
site, you will have links to different portions of the file, where one may
be to read what needs to be read, one may have one spoken to you, and
another may ask for questions and answers. Others, may things where you need
to drag objects to stage or link one side (which may contain a list of
words) to the other (the definitions of those words) (you click the word,
then click the definition to check answer). And yet, even more others, will
contain videos that someone can watch to see something being done, if they
are a visual learner. In these regards, Flash can offer many different
advantages to ALL different styles of learning. But, like the arguments
posted, there is the question of Accessibility. There is no reason that
flash cannot be used on a site. Some have stated that a little can add depth
to a site. Well, my question to those statements, how are you saying your
site is accessible if you do not have an accessible Flash file on it? You
cannot, unless you say it is accessible on only the main parts of the site.
But, that would leave a large part of the disabled out if they cannot see
what is happening.

Flash is a way to do learning online, just like the combination of
HTML/CSS/JS/AJAX, etc. And if instructors do want to use Flash for whatever
reason, then by all means, make accessible Flash. You cannot change all the
teachers in the world, it is impossible, and Flash is here to stay.

Um, I hope that explains it, I noticed when rereading it might not fully
explain, if it doesn't let me know.

BCAT's developers have a serious nerve asking the WSG community to
 provide feedback on a site they've built, but then require that
 a) people compromise their freedom by signing an NDA to even view the
 site, and then add insult to injury by
 b) making the terms of the NDA available only in a non-standard,
 proprietary MS Word DOC format.


On the first part I disagree, they do not. But on the last part, I would
have to agree (the b) part). But, again but, people do not compromise
freedom by being asked to sign an NDA. That is an argument either way
understandably. I can agree that you shouldn't be asked to sign an NDA, but
on the other hand, I can agree that you should. I can agree in the since
that they are protecting their site from being compromised, meaning they
do not want word to slip out on what is being developed yet, since it may or
may not be completed. On the other hand, I cannot agree with that NDA,
because of the b) part, and the fact that you are being asked to look at it,
and it is a waste of time having to read it, agree to it, and then get to
the point of the matter. Both arguments listed.

Simon said, (not trying to get hateful) and I quote:

 Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of
 students entering the industry. It's not uncommon that many secondary and
 tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly outdated. From my experience
 this is mostly attributed to the teacher's education in the field which they
 received when they did their tertiary education in order to teach, and have
 since not remained up to date with new developments and sadly even
 standards. Money and a requirement to regularly attend courses to keep
 educators up to date help in this regard but nothing beats personal
 interest—the high school IT teacher that in their own time is actively
 involved in his or her field will be more likely to teach his students about
 the latest relevant and 

Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread James Ducker
Hi WSG,

This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and of
itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless you
have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue to
be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that end
accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to be
able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you
shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a
manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue,
but bear with me.

 Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs,
schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to
actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be
committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep
to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want.

TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what they
are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary to
get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of
universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T.
degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to
university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you
figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good
programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well.
Virtually no one writes good ActionScript.

I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its usefulness.
It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T. students because
of the ubiquity of Flash on the web.

I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more
like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't
lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using
it.

 Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they
 can't control it.

This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will find
a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues lie
with course curricula.

I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have experienced
 the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just
 try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties
 become clear)


Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few
seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once
(without interrupting their availability to users either).


 the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
 making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from
 formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content
 changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build
 and
 rebuild Flash delivered content.


I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that
university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to
read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain.
Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure,
but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it.


The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful.
It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do
you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every
bad use of Flash?

Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as People
who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to HTML, and
also because it isn't HTML.

- James


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Hassan Schroeder

Christie Mason wrote:


CM - I wasn't talking about Flex.  I was referring to Flash.  I can see that
I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts.


And again, missing the point: Flash is a *platform* with which you
can do a variety of things. It's not 1998 any more, and Flash is
only about Dancing Hampsters(sic) if *you* want it to be.


CM -  Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone else.
What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with
links to graphics, video/Flash, etc 


It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're
teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates
replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you
want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side,
and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded
view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as
it's being removed in the video.

You might be able to do that with the JavaScript-ActionScript bridge
and plain HTML but I guarantee it would be a /lot/ clumsier. :-)


Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?)


No idea, check with Adobe. My last Flex project was a couple years
ago, and I'm pretty sure they've changed the licensing since then.

And there's also OpenLaszlo, of course.


Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
towards using Macs and Flash.  


I don't think it's about me :-)

The point is using the proper tool for the job, and any application
with multimedia aspects is a candidate for a Flash-based solution.


I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a
graph.  


I spend most of my time in a text editor or bash, regardless of
what platform I'm using. But that's probably not germane to this
discussion, either.


I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's
been my experience than when people start focusing on making the
interface/content flash around


How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more
effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above?


FWIW,
--
Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
THANK YOU!!! I could not agree with you more. And in the same since, I think
we agree with each other.

Congratulations on an argument well-played. And well-thought!!!

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, James Ducker james.duc...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi WSG,

 This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and of
 itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless you
 have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue to
 be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that end
 accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to be
 able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you
 shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a
 manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue,
 but bear with me.

  Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs,
 schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to
 actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be
 committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep
 to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want.

 TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what
 they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary
 to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of
 universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T.
 degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to
 university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you
 figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good
 programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well.
 Virtually no one writes good ActionScript.

 I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its usefulness.
 It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T. students because
 of the ubiquity of Flash on the web.

 I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more
 like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't
 lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using
 it.

  Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they
  can't control it.

 This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will find
 a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues lie
 with course curricula.

 I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have experienced
 the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just
 try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties
 become clear)


 Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few
 seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once
 (without interrupting their availability to users either).


 the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
 making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from
 formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content
 changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build
 and
 rebuild Flash delivered content.


 I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that
 university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to
 read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain.
 Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure,
 but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it.


 The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful.
 It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do
 you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every
 bad use of Flash?

 Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as
 People who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to
 HTML, and also because it isn't HTML.

 - James


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
Christie, your argument is about the most ridiculous argument there is.
Everything you have stated is SOLELY about you and your personal
preferences. Observe:

I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a
 graph.


So what? *NONE OF THIS IS ABOUT YOU!!!* Your personal preference is
irrelevant, as well as mine. Other people may not like reading. They may be
more visual. Focus on everyone, not yourself, and you CANNOT design a web
page if you only focus on yourself and how you may view and read it. It
can't happen. Unless you want people to view only how you viewed it when
designing.

You also state:

 Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
 Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
 towards using Macs and Flash.


 I don't think it's about me :-)


True, Hassan, it's not about you. Christie, do you think Macs are not PC's?
Because they are. And PC's (Personal Computers, that is what a PC stands
for) is too broad a subject. Clarify!!!

Since you like to read, here is this,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer
it shows the definition and what is included in the subject. Such as Macs
and Windows and Linux-based OS are PC's.

Again using the quote above, you are also Stereotyping. Not all people are
drawn towards Macs and Flash. Some maybe drawn to Linux, Ubuntu, Windows,
etc.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.comwrote:

 Christie Mason wrote:

  CM - I wasn't talking about Flex.  I was referring to Flash.  I can see
 that
 I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts.


 And again, missing the point: Flash is a *platform* with which you
 can do a variety of things. It's not 1998 any more, and Flash is
 only about Dancing Hampsters(sic) if *you* want it to be.

  CM -  Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone
 else.
 What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with
 links to graphics, video/Flash, etc


 It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're
 teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates
 replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you
 want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side,
 and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded
 view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as
 it's being removed in the video.

 You might be able to do that with the JavaScript-ActionScript bridge
 and plain HTML but I guarantee it would be a /lot/ clumsier. :-)

  Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
 remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?)


 No idea, check with Adobe. My last Flex project was a couple years
 ago, and I'm pretty sure they've changed the licensing since then.

 And there's also OpenLaszlo, of course.

  Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
 Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
 towards using Macs and Flash.


 I don't think it's about me :-)

 The point is using the proper tool for the job, and any application
 with multimedia aspects is a candidate for a Flash-based solution.

  I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given
 a
 graph.


 I spend most of my time in a text editor or bash, regardless of
 what platform I'm using. But that's probably not germane to this
 discussion, either.

  I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's
 been my experience than when people start focusing on making the
 interface/content flash around


 How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more
 effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above?


 FWIW,
 --
 Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
 Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
The below was to James Ducker.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson 
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com wrote:

 THANK YOU!!! I could not agree with you more. And in the same since, I
 think we agree with each other.

 Congratulations on an argument well-played. And well-thought!!!

 --
 Brett P.


 On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, James Ducker james.duc...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi WSG,

 This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and
 of itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless
 you have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue
 to be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that
 end accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to
 be able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you
 shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a
 manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue,
 but bear with me.

  Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs,
 schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to
 actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be
 committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep
 to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want.

 TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what
 they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary
 to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of
 universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T.
 degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to
 university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you
 figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good
 programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well.
 Virtually no one writes good ActionScript.

 I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its
 usefulness. It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T.
 students because of the ubiquity of Flash on the web.

 I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more
 like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't
 lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using
 it.

  Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because
 they
  can't control it.

 This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will
 find a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues
 lie with course curricula.

 I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have experienced
 the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just
 try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties
 become clear)


 Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few
 seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once
 (without interrupting their availability to users either).


 the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
 making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from
 formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content
 changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build
 and
 rebuild Flash delivered content.


 I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that
 university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to
 read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain.
 Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure,
 but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it.


 The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful.
 It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do
 you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every
 bad use of Flash?

 Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as
 People who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to
 HTML, and also because it isn't HTML.

 - James


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Matt Morgan-May
On 1/14/09 5:38 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote:
 Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
 remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?), but I
 also haven't been looking for it.

Flex hasn't been sold on a server basis since 1.5, which was released in
2004. Flex 3 was released as an open-source SDK, along with a commercial,
Eclipse-based IDE called Flex Builder (which, btw, is free for educational
users--as is ColdFusion).

-
m



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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason
From:  Brett Patterson (BP)

 BP -  Okay, first this part of the answer. There are different types of
ways that people learn. I suggest reading:
http://www.worldwidelearn.com/education-articles/how-do-you-learn.htm

CM - That's a very simplistic theory of how people learn and it's actually a
communication theory that,  maybe because it's really simple, became
accepted as a learning theory.   That link is a simplification of what I
learned as AVK (Auditory, Visual, Kinesthetic) from NLP. I thought AVK was
the answer to all until I reflected on it, taught it, applied it and found
it... fun but useless.  The educational system rewards those that learn
visually so many have adapted to learning visually.  Everyone learns better
by doing/experiencing/feeling so everyone's a Kinesthetic.  Auditory seems
to be the only optional preference, but the cost of meeting auditory
learning preferences is very high.  Also, it seems that offering high
auditory experiences tends to be negatively received by those that don't
have an auditory preference, so it's best as an option.  No one really seems
to know what AVK is based upon.  It seems to me it may be based on what's
usually quoted as Mehrabrian's 7/38/55 communication rule which is in
incomplete interpretation of his findings
http://www.coachteam.no/Documents/MytenOmNonverbalKommunikasjon.pdf
Somewhere this myth got started and it should be ignored.

CM - NLP does offer some clues about writing content for web display, aka
communicating concepts..  You can write so that people can hear the words
singing, feel the punch of an idea, see the interaction of concepts.
What is learning other than communicating, even selling, someone the need to
learn, to change what they know?  Flash s/b used when it increases
communication, not just because it's the only way someone knows how to put
content on the web.  If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a
nail  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hammer

 BP -  or
http://www.google.com/search?q=types+of+learningsourceid=navclient-ffie=UT
F-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303

CM - Multiple Intelligence is also another learning theory that seems to
ring true but I've been unable to figure out how to apply all types of
intelligence into organizing and displaying content on the web.

CM - As far as learning theory, I'm a Constructionist.  Very simply that
means that I believe people construct their own learning framework by
seeking out resources that meet their needs.  If what they need isn't
presented in a way that matches their preferences, they'll adapt to whatever
is available, as long as they can find it.  Making content findable seems to
parallel making it accessible.

CM - For more useful learning theories, look at Kolb  (Active
Experimentation, Concrete Experience, Reflective Observation , Abstract
Conceptualization)  http://www.businessballs.com/kolblearningstyles.htm  and
Soloman/Felder/Silverman (Active -- Reflective, Sensing --Intuitive,
Visual -- Verbal, Sequential -- Global)

CM - What I've really learned about all the learning theories and styles,
after more than 20 years of involvement not a quick search,  is that none of
them are practical because people change their learning style based on
environment and what they're trying to learn.  What I've found most useful
is personality/communication styles.  Seems that all the personality style
matrixes, and most learning styles, that  I've seen can be boiled down to
task - social and detail - whole picture preferences.  I can match those
preferences on the web by offering short overviews with opportunities to
drill out to more detail (which c/b video/Flash/audio) and/or offer social
interaction opportunities - like this forum.

BP - Interaction is one the greatest styles of learning there is, in my
opinion...Flash can help tremendously with interaction, although that is not
the only way. An excellently developed Flash eLearning solution will add a
lot of different types of learning solutions to it. Most do. In an
excellently developed site, you will have links to different portions of
the file, where one may be to read what needs to be read, one may have one
spoken to you, and another may ask for questions and answers.

CM - Interaction is more than clicking on a link or moving things around on
a screen.  Those links are easier to develop and manage with HTML, plus
there's still the additional cost of developing/maintaining Flash plus
addt'l costs to make it as accessible as text/graphics.  Yes, Flash can be
used but it should never be the only tool that's used.   If a concept can
ONLY be understood if the learner HAS to SEE it in action then even adding
all the accessibility add ons to Flash won't help.  In addition,  I've found
that need to be rare and certainly no reason to justify putting all content
into Flash.

BP - Flash is a way to do learning online, just like the combination of
HTML/CSS/JS/AJAX, etc. And if instructors do want to use Flash for whatever
reason, then 

RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason
Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal
observations.  Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer?

Christie Mason


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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason


-Original Message-
From: Hassan Schroeder
It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're
teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates
replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you
want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side,
and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded
view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as
it's being removed in the video.

CM - that sounds useful but MY preference would also be to have a text based
cheat sheet to scan the steps then link out to the multimedia detail.
Start simple, offer the rich option, track how much the rich option is
accessed to determine its usefulness and cost justification.

How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more
effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above?

CM - As long as there's a recognition that using multimedia at all times
doesn't always add value,  it's fine with me.

Christie Mason



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[WSG] SEO and Flash

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason
It seems that SEs are beginning to index text in Flash.  Maybe the same will
be true of screen readers, some day.

http://www.seochat.com/c/a/Search-Engine-Optimization-Help/Search-Engine-Ind
exing-for-Flash-Websites-is-Improving/#?kc=EWKNLINF01142009STR5

Christie Mason



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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
Pardon the language, but Hell no. For a number of different reasons. Among
that being, I can't work with the code as good as I can with Microsoft's and
the fact that it costs too much money. Although it is proprietary, I can
recode most of what I need to do (Microsoft's code). To say I disagree with
you, or anyone else for that matter, about Flash not being used by people
properly, would be a lie. Even being used on the Web itself, I would say
that is a lie if I disagree. But, I must at least agree with the people who
are trying to make it accessible. It doesn't matter what we think about it,
it's going to be there regardless, so instead we need to work on
accessibility of ALL things that go on the Web. Having looked at the
solution by BCAT, or whatever it's called, I have noticed some major
improvements, and most importantly, that it cannot only be applied to
eLearning, but other ways of Flash uses as well. This is why I promote it,
now.

And I must say that all teachers/educators, whatever word you wish to use,
do recognize different ways to show content off. Even I know different ways.
Everyone that does use Flash for eLearning, offers different ways to learn
it. But again, like I said, not my opinion about using it that matters, nor
anyone else's. What does matter though, is this, (again to reiterate) it
will be there no matter what, whether we like it or not, so let's work on
the making it accessible together, get it done and be done with it.

True to anyone that says it should be Adobe's problem to fix. I agree. But
they are lazy, so it is up to other people to fix their problem. Okay, so I
really don't want to have to fix it, you don't want to fix it, we don't want
to fix it, but BCAT is stepping up and taking charge and fixing it. Let's
support them, and hope it works. As long as they don't charge. Then it
becomes a-whole-nother story. But beyond that, more power to them.

Christie, we are both Constructionists in the term you defined. But I am
also a Visionary. Plus, I try to help make Tim Berners-Lee's goals possible.
Those that argue the point it should not be made accessible and not put on
the web are saying they don't care about his vision of the WWW. Why do I say
they don't care? Because it's one of either two things, with no other
possibility. These two choices are either: 1) You don't care about Mr.
Berners-Lee's vision or the WWW, for that matter. or 2) Your ignorant,
because you have accepted or don't know that Flash is here to stay.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.comwrote:

  Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal
 observations.  Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer?

 Christie Mason

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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
Forgot to mention several other things, Christie.


   1. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, I am
   still laughing at that.

CM - Interaction is more than clicking on a link or moving things around on
 a screen.  Those links are easier to develop and manage with HTML, plus
 there's still the additional cost of developing/maintaining Flash plus
 addt'l costs to make it as accessible as text/graphics.  Yes, Flash can be
 used but it should never be the only tool that's used.   If a concept can
 ONLY be understood if the learner HAS to SEE it in action then even adding
 all the accessibility add ons to Flash won't help.  In addition,  I've found
 that need to be rare and certainly no reason to justify putting all content
 into Flash.


Sorry I wasn't as clear as I should have been. Those links are not like
using the a tag. They are like lines drawn on a map. Linking (drawing a
line) from one side to the other (one word to its definition), a line, if
you have ever done it, like connect-the-dots.

To the question about this conversation being done in Flash, it very well
could have. With some minor changes, we could have talked with video
conferencing. Kinda hard to do, but it can be done.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Brett Patterson 
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com wrote:

 Pardon the language, but Hell no. For a number of different reasons. Among
 that being, I can't work with the code as good as I can with Microsoft's and
 the fact that it costs too much money. Although it is proprietary, I can
 recode most of what I need to do (Microsoft's code). To say I disagree with
 you, or anyone else for that matter, about Flash not being used by people
 properly, would be a lie. Even being used on the Web itself, I would say
 that is a lie if I disagree. But, I must at least agree with the people who
 are trying to make it accessible. It doesn't matter what we think about it,
 it's going to be there regardless, so instead we need to work on
 accessibility of ALL things that go on the Web. Having looked at the
 solution by BCAT, or whatever it's called, I have noticed some major
 improvements, and most importantly, that it cannot only be applied to
 eLearning, but other ways of Flash uses as well. This is why I promote it,
 now.

 And I must say that all teachers/educators, whatever word you wish to use,
 do recognize different ways to show content off. Even I know different ways.
 Everyone that does use Flash for eLearning, offers different ways to learn
 it. But again, like I said, not my opinion about using it that matters, nor
 anyone else's. What does matter though, is this, (again to reiterate) it
 will be there no matter what, whether we like it or not, so let's work on
 the making it accessible together, get it done and be done with it.

 True to anyone that says it should be Adobe's problem to fix. I agree. But
 they are lazy, so it is up to other people to fix their problem. Okay, so I
 really don't want to have to fix it, you don't want to fix it, we don't want
 to fix it, but BCAT is stepping up and taking charge and fixing it. Let's
 support them, and hope it works. As long as they don't charge. Then it
 becomes a-whole-nother story. But beyond that, more power to them.

 Christie, we are both Constructionists in the term you defined. But I am
 also a Visionary. Plus, I try to help make Tim Berners-Lee's goals possible.
 Those that argue the point it should not be made accessible and not put on
 the web are saying they don't care about his vision of the WWW. Why do I say
 they don't care? Because it's one of either two things, with no other
 possibility. These two choices are either: 1) You don't care about Mr.
 Berners-Lee's vision or the WWW, for that matter. or 2) Your ignorant,
 because you have accepted or don't know that Flash is here to stay.

 --
 Brett P.



 On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Christie Mason 
 cma...@managersforum.comwrote:

  Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal
 observations.  Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer?

 Christie Mason

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[WSG] embedding quicktime .mov cross-platform

2009-01-14 Thread Ron Zisman
anybody know of a solid way to embed quicktime movies cross-platform-- 
in a standards sort of way.


i've googled around and haven't found what i need. i'm told my  
current method hates IE. surprise.


test page here:
http://www.ricochet.org/test_flippin/georg_tampered.html

thanks in advance

--ron




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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Christie Mason
Well there goes that theory.  My thoughts were something like graphically
oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash.  BCAT's attempting to
make Flash accessible is good but if the content hadn't been made
inaccessible in the first place, then it wouldn't be needed.

Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a concept,  but
it's still primarily used in the eLearning world (including both corporate
trainers and educators) to port PPT to Flash and that's just wrong.

Christie Mason


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[WSG] Re: Browser / OS Test on website.

2009-01-14 Thread Elle Meredith


On 15/01/2009, at 1:06 AM, wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
 wrote:



*
From: Danny Croft static...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:02:52 +
Subject: Browser / OS Test on website.


Link: http://dannythewebdev.com   (almost forgot to add the link)



Hi Danny,

Site looks very nice -- clean and simple design. Also, love your logo.

Two suggestions though:
1. I found it a bit annoying that I had to go back to the top to be  
able to continue navigating the site. Maybe consider leaving the  
#header in sight all the time.
2. Since this is a site promoting you, I would suggest adding a  
portfolio section with images and information about previous projects.


All the best,
Elle

http://designbyelle.com.au/


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Brett Patterson
And we do agree. But again, NOT THE POINT, although it may be wrong, it may
need to be designed accessible in the first place, it hasn't, so don't argue
the point. End it at the fact that something needs to be done and people are
ignorant. BCAT is doing what people should be doing, fixing things that are
inaccessible, NO MATTER WHAT!

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.comwrote:

  Well there goes that theory.  My thoughts were something like graphically
 oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash.  BCAT's attempting to
 make Flash accessible is good but if the content hadn't been made
 inaccessible in the first place, then it wouldn't be needed.

 Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a concept,  but
 it's still primarily used in the eLearning world (including both corporate
 trainers and educators) to port PPT to Flash and that's just wrong.

 Christie Mason

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[WSG] It's about web standards: use SVG, not Adobe's proprietary Flash

2009-01-14 Thread David Lane
I agree, James, that this discussion is getting tiring.  Ultimately,
this list is about promoting web standards.  Adobe Flash is not a web
standard, and therefore we shouldn't be promoting it because its use is
counter to the aims of this group.  

Until Adobe does with Flash what it did with PDF and make it an open,
unencumbered standard (making it possible to build a true market around
the concept), I'll look for every opportunity to promote the SVG
standard instead, which, despite having its own challenges, is an open
standard with an ambitious brief. 

Given the work the major browser developers (barring Microsoft, of
course, because they're not much for playing nicely with others) have
done to provide native SVG support (e.g. Mozilla/Firefox with Gecko and
Safari/Konqueror with Webkit, and Opera with their rendering engine),
any of us for whom web standards really matter should be promoting it.

For those who are curious about SVG: 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/
http://dev.opera.com/articles/svg/
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/
http://webkit.org/projects/svg/index.html

Interestingly, Adobe were one of the first vocal proponents of SVG...
http://support.adobe.com/devsup/devsup.nsf/docs/50514.htm

Ironically, Adobe produced an SVG plugin for MS Internet Explorer... but
that seems to be languishing - in fact, they've just (on 1 January)
announced that they'd discontinue support for it...
http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/

What happened there... looks like Adobe were just on the cusp of
achieving their aim as of 2002: having most browsers support SVG (or a
large portion of it)... And then they pull the plug.  

In my opinion, this is something we should be talking about.

Cheers,

Dave


On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 03:05 +1100, James Ducker wrote:
 Hi WSG,
 
 This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in
 and of itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke
 unless you have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and
 will continue to be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich,
 interactive media. To that end accessibility in flash is almost a moot
 point, as you're never going to be able to enable a blind person to
 watch a video. If the issue is text, you shouldn't be using Flash, and
 if you are you should be implementing it in a manner that allows for
 graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue, but bear with me.
 
  Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities,
 TAFEs, schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be
 bothered to actually understand learning theory. This is why they
 'continue to be committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to
 understand and cheep to develop. Vendor just give the market what they
 want.
 
 TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is
 what they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the
 skills necessary to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills.
 My experience of universities is that they don't do this at all. Even
 the less technical I.T. degrees will throw a smorgasbord of
 programming languages (no one goes to university to write HTML) and
 development methodologies at you and let you figure out which one
 works best for you. The result of being a good programmer is that it
 becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well. Virtually no one
 writes good ActionScript.
 
 I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its
 usefulness. It is in my opinion something that should be taught to
 I.T. students because of the ubiquity of Flash on the web.
 
 I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds
 more like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The
 issue doesn't lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software
 producers are using it.
 
  Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because
 they
  can't control it.
 
 This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will
 find a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the
 issues lie with course curricula.
 
 
 I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have
 experienced
 the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in
 Flash (just
 try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the
 difficulties
 become clear)
 
 Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a
 few seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash
 files at once (without interrupting their availability to users
 either).
  
 the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
 making levels, students/employees that love the web push to
 learn from
 formal resources the way they informally learn from the web,
 plus content
 changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little
 time to build and
  

[WSG] Re: Title attribute

2009-01-14 Thread Elle Meredith


On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:51:52, Chris Dimmock wrote:


Actually, using the 'title' attribute in a link does NOT add a little
bit of SEO. Title element ('Page Title') - yes for SEO - but title
attribute - no.

Try it yourself. Put a few words in a title attribute - words which
don't otherwise appear on your page. The once Google has re-indexed
the page, (look at the date in the Google cache); then search your
sitein Google for the words you included in the title attribute.

snip

Google won't find them, because it doesn't index them; just like
Google doesn't index the content of e.g. meta name =keywords field.



title attributes do help SEO and google does find them, but... if the  
word appears only once in the page (and especially not in the main  
text), it is quite logical that that page will not come up first on  
search results.


As far as I know, google looks at the whole page and tries to  
understand the theme of the page. This is done by looking at the  
content and finding what the theme is according to everything on the  
page and how each element is related to that theme. Google gives more  
importance to keywords that appear in the page title and top headings  
but it also looks at the rest of the page including images alt text,  
title attributes, link naming, links, etc...


Also google does index the keywords and description metatags  -- but  
because they have been abused by black hat SEO, google does not give  
them as much importance in its algorithm anymore.



FWIW,
Elle

http://designbyelle.com.au/



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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 14, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Christie Mason wrote:

Well there goes that theory.  My thoughts were something like  
graphically oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash.   
BCAT's attempting to make Flash accessible is good but if the  
content hadn't been made inaccessible in the first place, then it  
wouldn't be needed.


Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a  
concept,  but it's still primarily used in the eLearning world  
(including both corporate trainers and educators) to port PPT to  
Flash and that's just wrong.


I'm visually oriented - I got here from graphic design - and I love  
Macs and like you am less than thrilled with *the uses to which Flash  
is put on the web*


I think the Mac has a better user interface (or at least did). There  
are things that I do enjoy in Flash.


But as others have mentioned these *personal* attitudes are entirely  
beside the point.


None of the arguments you have put forward seem to me to have any  
real bearing on Flash per se. Yes education is a mess, yes  
educators are too seldom inspired or inspiring. But uninspired  
educators are going to be lazy in their use of any tool put at their  
disposal. Should Flash be banished forever because it is  
inappropriately used and then poorly implemented? I dunno, should we  
ban axes on account of Lizzie Borden?


sorry, I'm just getting tired of this discussion which has long  
since degenerated into an extraordinarily verbose repetition of  
Does! - Doesn't! - Does so! - Oh no it  
doesn't


Seems like the gist was covered days ago, i.e. Flash is a medium  
that has a history of inappropriate use, but Adobe is making efforts  
to extend its accessibility. As a tool it has its uses, in the hands  
of fools it's dangerous.


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] SEO and Flash

2009-01-14 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Christie Mason wrote:

It seems that SEs are beginning to index text in Flash.  Maybe the same will
be true of screen readers, some day.

http://www.seochat.com/c/a/Search-Engine-Optimization-Help/Search-Engine-Ind
exing-for-Flash-Websites-is-Improving/#?kc=EWKNLINF01142009STR5


The needs of search engines and those of screen readers (and their 
users) are quite different. In the case of Google and co, they just need 
to trawl through all the unstructured text to index according to 
keywords. Screen readers need to actually understand the structure, and 
most importantly dynamic changes, relationships of elements, etc. And, 
with well-authored flash, it's possible even today to have a reasonably 
accessible experience even for screen reader users.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] SEO and Flash

2009-01-14 Thread S.R. Emerson
This partnership was announced back in July of 2008.  It is not the be all, 
end all solution for flash websites to be indexed by search engines and 
directories.


http://blog.v7n.com/2008/07/01/search-engine-friendly-flash/

S. Emerson
Accrete Web Solutions
http://www.accretewebsolutions.ca




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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT - THREAD CLOSED

2009-01-14 Thread russ - maxdesign
THREAD CLOSED ­ GONE ON LONG ENOUGH

Please do not reply to this thread any more.
Thanks
Russ
List admin




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Re: [WSG] It's about web standards: use SVG, not Adobe's proprietary Flash

2009-01-14 Thread David Lane
At the risk of responding to my own post...  it occurs to me that Adobe
would have an amazing business opportunity if they released their Flash
authoring tools with full SVG support - i.e. the ability author SVG
content with the same tools that are currently used to author Flash...
if they could do *both* Flash and SVG, I think they'd successfully
outflank and kill Microsoft's Silverlight, which would be a huge boon
for the web, and all of humankind (except those invested in Microsoft,
but I have a hard time feeling sorry for them).  I, for one, would be
most impressed.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Dave

On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 09:32 +1300, David Lane wrote:
 snip...
 
 Until Adobe does with Flash what it did with PDF and make it an open,
 unencumbered standard (making it possible to build a true market
 around
 the concept), I'll look for every opportunity to promote the SVG
 standard instead, which, despite having its own challenges, is an open
 standard with an ambitious brief. 

snip...
-- 
David Lane = Egressive Ltd = d...@egressive.com = m:+64 21 229 8147
p:+64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents
http://egressive.com  we only use open standards: http://w3.org
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Re: [WSG] Re: Browser / OS Test on website.

2009-01-14 Thread Danny Croft
Thank you for your suggestions and pointers everyone! I promise you it is
really appreciated. I think i will make some changes soon and maybe email
you all again just to see what you think.

Once again thank you!

Danny

- Original Email -

Danny Croft wrote:

 Hi All,

 I was wondering if any of you get a spare minute, could you cast your
 professional eyes over a site I just put online. Its only a small online
 resume type site. But I'd be interested to see if anyone could find any
 issues with it or had any suggestions for items that I may have missed. I
 have done some testing and it passed the online W3C Validation Service for
 both the markup and CSS. Also if anyone is running an OS other than OSX (v
 10.5.6) then I'd be interested in your results on any of the current
 browers.

 Like I said, only if you get a minute.

 Link: http://dannythewebdev.com   (almost forgot to add the link)

 Cheers,

 Danny

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[WSG] Checking My Page

2009-01-14 Thread Marvin Hunkin
HI James.
well, got over 800 pages of content, for my star trek site, and just wanted
to get my front page and the css, formatted right.
need the nav links, and the java script.
that is part of my design.
just needed help with css errors, and general feedback on formatting,
colours, backgrounds, and accessibility.
then got a second style sheet, which is my main star trek style sheet.
once i get the styles .css working, then can then modify the
startrek_org.css and then start editing my pages, and then finding the
people who own the images for each page, get their permission.
then on my copyright page, will have a credits links, with credits of the
sites where the images came from.
cheers Marvin.
ps: yep, still wating for that paper.
and okay, sorry not for a help desk list, then where should i ask for help 
to fix my errors, and get general feedback on my page, just a starting 
point, and got plenty of content, as i mentioned above.
E-mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
MSN: sttartrekc...@msn.com
Skype: startrekcafe
We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile!
Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One


E-mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
MSN: sttartrekc...@msn.com
Skype: startrekcafe
We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile!
Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One 




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Re: [WSG] Re: Browser / OS Test on website.

2009-01-14 Thread James Ducker
Under Skills you have Search Engine Optimisation and a few lines below
that SEO (Search Engine Optimisation).
... or is this a SEO technique? ;o)

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Danny Croft static...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thank you for your suggestions and pointers everyone! I promise you it is
 really appreciated. I think i will make some changes soon and maybe email
 you all again just to see what you think.

 Once again thank you!

 Danny

 - Original Email -

 Danny Croft wrote:

 Hi All,

 I was wondering if any of you get a spare minute, could you cast your
 professional eyes over a site I just put online. Its only a small online
 resume type site. But I'd be interested to see if anyone could find any
 issues with it or had any suggestions for items that I may have missed. I
 have done some testing and it passed the online W3C Validation Service for
 both the markup and CSS. Also if anyone is running an OS other than OSX (v
 10.5.6) then I'd be interested in your results on any of the current
 browers.

 Like I said, only if you get a minute.

 Link: http://dannythewebdev.com   (almost forgot to add the link)

 Cheers,

 Danny

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-- 
James Ducker
Web Developer
http://www.studioj.net.au


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Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2009-01-14 Thread Mary-Anne . Nayler
 

yes mark, we are a Government entity. Just so you know, I am talking about
approving the use of iframes NOT frames in a limited capacity due to
specific technical difficulties. The Government guidelines say that online
content should be accessible. From what I understand of WCAG2.0, It is
possible to make iFrames accessible.

Thanks for your interest.

   

   

   





   
 Mark Harris   
 w...@tracs.co.nz 
 Sent by:   To 
 li...@webstandard wsg@webstandardsgroup.org   
 sgroup.org cc 
   
   Subject 
 14/01/2009 04:51  Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames
 PM[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]  
   
   
 Please respond to 
 w...@webstandardsg 
 roup.org  
   
   




mary-anne.nay...@medicareaustralia.gov.au wrote:
 They are using them to facilitate the menu/header/footer ite,s across a
 host of applications which sit on a range of differing servers using a
rang
 of differing technologies. I suggested SSI's but that is not possible due
 to server configuration issues. I think I am going to allow iFrames but
 with some stipulations.


I thought you were a government entity? What do the government
guidelines say about frames

~mark


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NOTICE - This message is intended only for the use of the addressee named above 
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Re: [WSG] Frames/iFrames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2009-01-14 Thread Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis

On 14/1/09 05:31, mary-anne.nay...@medicareaustralia.gov.au wrote:

They are using them to facilitate the menu/header/footer ite,s across a
host of applications which sit on a range of differing servers using a rang
of differing technologies. I suggested SSI's but that is not possible due
to server configuration issues. I think I am going to allow iFrames but
with some stipulations.


My company uses IFRAME elements to share headers and footers with 
partner sites.


The biggest problem with this approach is that you have to specify a 
HEIGHT attribute for the IFRAME. That forces you to make assumptions 
about the height of the IFRAME content, and those assumptions will 
inevitably break down under some conditions. (Try bumping up your text 
size three or four steps and see what happens!)


--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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RE: [WSG] Re: Browser / OS Test on website.

2009-01-14 Thread Linda Mitchell
Small grammar error on page Get in touch  your development team then their
are loads of ways s/be your development team then there are loads of ways
and on the same page in Recent activity Probably the best brief for a site
I have ever recieved s/be received
 
These type of errors can give the wrong impression Nice looking site -
clean.


  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Danny Croft
Sent: Thursday, 15 January 2009 7:19 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Browser / OS Test on website.


Thank you for your suggestions and pointers everyone! I promise you it is
really appreciated. I think i will make some changes soon and maybe email
you all again just to see what you think. 

Once again thank you! 

Danny

- Original Email -

Danny Croft wrote:


Hi All,

I was wondering if any of you get a spare minute, could you cast your
professional eyes over a site I just put online. Its only a small online
resume type site. But I'd be interested to see if anyone could find any
issues with it or had any suggestions for items that I may have missed. I
have done some testing and it passed the online W3C Validation Service for
both the markup and CSS. Also if anyone is running an OS other than OSX (v
10.5.6) then I'd be interested in your results on any of the current
browers.

Like I said, only if you get a minute.

Link: http://dannythewebdev.com http://dannythewebdev.com/(almost
forgot to add the link)

Cheers,

Danny

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Re: [WSG] Re: Title attribute

2009-01-14 Thread Chris Dimmock
Hi Elle,

 title attributes do help SEO and google does find them,

Elle - my specific example showed that your statement above just isn't
true, as I'll explain again below.

 if the word
 appears only once in the page (and especially not in the main text), it is
 quite logical that that page will not come up first on search results.

Yes, that is a factually correct statement, but isn't relevent to the
specific example I gave using Google specific search operators.

I did not do a 'ranking' query. I did a site query looking for two
specific words.

i.e. as Google says:

site: If you include [site:] in your query, Google will restrict the
results to those websites in the given domain.

I.e. by asking site:cogentis.com.au Australian DDA I am asking to see
all pages from the domain cogentis.com.au which include the words
Australian DDA.

One page on the domain includes those keywords on the page in p -
the other page (the home page) only includes them in the title
attribute.

Google can't find the words in the title attribute. Why not? Because
it doesn't index words in the title attribute.

Feel free to show me an example using the same methodology, where
Google does index words which only appear in a title attribute.

 Also google does index the keywords and description metatags  -- but because
 they have been abused by black hat SEO, google does not give them as much
 importance in its algorithm anymore.

Ok - no issue with Meta description tag - but again, not true for the
meta Keywords tag in Google.

Again, lets try testing...

Do a Google search for the made up word pnogiwaz

It appears only in the meta keywords tag on http://www.cogentis.com.au/

But Cogentis doesn't appear in the results?
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=pnogiwazhl=enfilter=0

Only pages that have copied/ scraped my content, and included the
contents of my meta keywords in a p on their version of my page -
appear in the results.

Alternatively, search using the site operator

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=enq=pnogiwaz+site%3Acogentis.com.aubtnG=Searchmeta=

No result.

Again - feel free to give me an example using the same methodology
where a word which only appears in the meta keywords field, and no
where else on the page, is indexed in Google.

In order to show the difference - Yahoo does index meta keywords.

e.g

http://au.search.yahoo.com/search?p=pnogiwazfr=yfp-t-501ei=UTF-8

Best

Chris


The example I gave

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Elle Meredith
li...@designbyelle.com.au wrote:

 On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:51:52, Chris Dimmock wrote:

 Actually, using the 'title' attribute in a link does NOT add a little
 bit of SEO. Title element ('Page Title') - yes for SEO - but title
 attribute - no.

 Try it yourself. Put a few words in a title attribute - words which
 don't otherwise appear on your page. The once Google has re-indexed
 the page, (look at the date in the Google cache); then search your
 sitein Google for the words you included in the title attribute.

 snip

 Google won't find them, because it doesn't index them; just like
 Google doesn't index the content of e.g. meta name =keywords field.


 title attributes do help SEO and google does find them, but... if the word
 appears only once in the page (and especially not in the main text), it is
 quite logical that that page will not come up first on search results.

 As far as I know, google looks at the whole page and tries to understand the
 theme of the page. This is done by looking at the content and finding what
 the theme is according to everything on the page and how each element is
 related to that theme. Google gives more importance to keywords that appear
 in the page title and top headings but it also looks at the rest of the page
 including images alt text, title attributes, link naming, links, etc...

 Also google does index the keywords and description metatags  -- but because
 they have been abused by black hat SEO, google does not give them as much
 importance in its algorithm anymore.


 FWIW,
 Elle




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Re: [WSG] SEO and Flash

2009-01-14 Thread Stuart Foulstone

If the text in Flash is accessible SEs will index it.

Search robots are in effect blind readers.

If text in Flash is accessible, screen readers can read it.

However, sensible screen-reader users disable Flash.



On Wed, January 14, 2009 7:21 pm, Christie Mason wrote:
 It seems that SEs are beginning to index text in Flash.  Maybe the same
 will
 be true of screen readers, some day.

 http://www.seochat.com/c/a/Search-Engine-Optimization-Help/Search-Engine-Ind
 exing-for-Flash-Websites-is-Improving/#?kc=EWKNLINF01142009STR5

 Christie Mason



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