Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread William Donovan
Good point Dennis, plug away.

It's all part of the challenge and there needss to be people leading the
path for others to follow.

Well done for atleast trying for them James.

William Donovan
mobile: 0403 263 284


2009/1/29 Eyemax Studios i...@eyemaxstudios.net

 Unfortunate, you as a developer, and the rest of world to have to view it,
 and for those original developers as they won't be able to learn from your
 wisdom.

 I've had similar cases myself, and refused to put my name to those projects
 for the same reasons.

 It's just the way things are unfortunately, but remember this same thing
 happens in all industry's, so don't go putting the blame on yourself, keep
 your head up and don't let it get you down.

 I've had potential client's come to me wanting me to do their site,, and
 after going through outlining why things are done the way they are, and a
 price is given them for what they want in their site, they end up going to
 the $100 guys, and end up coming back wanting me to help them. In every case
 I've told them, they only way to fix this problem and get your site working
 in a way they want is to scratch what they have unfortunately already paid
 for, and charge them the original price. In some cases I've repriced them
 more, for having to muck around with something someone else done.

 Keep plugging away at the industry, it's hard not to take on work at times,
 especially when rent needs paying, and food need to be in our belly's.

 Dennis, Eyemax Studios - Studo Junkyard


 James Jeffery wrote:

 Big company, worldwide infact. A great one for the resume but I failed it.

 I was brought in at the end of the project to fix some bugs. Let me just
 say that from viewing the source it was majorly flawed! I spent 6 hours on
 it before handing in the towel right near their deadline. The CSS was
 unstructured, way to much repetition which was the cause of some bugs and
 errors.

 The only way out of that was to rewrite the whole lot. I mean the guys who
 were on this project were creating empty spans with classes to push elements
 along a page (like spacers). They had an empty h1 with a span inside it
 for the logo they placed in using CSS ... that was only a part of the issue.

 I don't question my knowledge. It's up to par and I have completed a
 number of jobs, but on this occasion I sucked ... or they sucked ... or
 both. This website will be released to the world, and millions will use it,
 but its awfully constructed, not semantic at all and its another case of a
 poor website on the web.

 Ah well. Lesson learn't. Never jump into a project at the last minute to
 be relied upon for a couple of pennies.

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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread Michael MD
The only way out of that was to rewrite the whole lot. I mean the guys 
who were on this project were creating empty spans with classes to push 
elements along a page (like spacers). They had an empty h1 with a 
span inside it for the logo they placed in using CSS ... that was only 
a part of the issue.


I've seen lots of misuse of h1 over the years but nothing quite as bizarre 
as that!








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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread James Jeffery
Guys thanks for the response. I hit the sac last night at nearly 6am and was
very pissed off, with myself for failing the job. I'm all good now though
because at the end of the day it wasn't really my doing. The guy that passed
me the work does front-end development all day, I thought it was strange why
he passed on the work to me. Now I see why ... because it was a bloody mess.

Anyway. I can't say who it is, but it's a cable/sat


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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread Simon Pascal Klein


On 29/01/2009, at 11:39 PM, James Jeffery wrote:

Guys thanks for the response. I hit the sac last night at nearly 6am  
and was very pissed off, with myself for failing the job. I'm all  
good now though because at the end of the day it wasn't really my  
doing. The guy that passed me the work does front-end development  
all day, I thought it was strange why he passed on the work to me.  
Now I see why ... because it was a bloody mess.


I’d expect clean, accessible, and semantic code from a front-end  
developer. Bah—sorry to hear you had such a negative experience. I  
think we all end up taking a bite from the sour end of the pie at some  
point in our profession, and, in the end I guess the best thing to do  
is consider it an experience worth not repeating and learning from it.


Regards.


—Pascal



Anyway. I can't say who it is, but it's a cable/sat

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---
Simon Pascal Klein
Graphic  Web Designer

Web: http://klepas.org
E-mai: kle...@klepas.org
Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas


Kaffee und Kuchen.



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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread James Jeffery
Indeed. My only problem is I have lost future work from the guy that feeds
me these jobs because I failed it, he isn't even understanding my situation
and he's a front-end developer aswell. I mean 10 hours to do a whole lot of
bug fixing and a near rewite is stupid. Also there was no SV so when I
edited stuff, they overwrite it and it was an absolute nightmare.

As you said. Lesson learned :p

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Krystian - Sunlust sunl...@gmail.comwrote:

 I remember when through GAF I got a on-page SEO job for a website, I
 was stupid enough to accept it without first looking at the code, it
 came out that it's a table based design with images in the markup used
 for layouts etc.

 I've done as much as I could, but it was a nightmare.

 Like Simon posted, it's a good lesson.

 Regards,

 --
 Krystian - Sunlust
 Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne:
 http://eastbournewebdesign.net
 Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337
 Call for more information or email me.


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RE: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread kieren
Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy was
hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of
updating.

 

Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely
unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange
and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software
markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when
the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe,
they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not
much else.

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of James Jeffery
Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

 

Indeed. My only problem is I have lost future work from the guy that feeds
me these jobs because I failed it, he isn't even understanding my situation
and he's a front-end developer aswell. I mean 10 hours to do a whole lot of
bug fixing and a near rewite is stupid. Also there was no SV so when I
edited stuff, they overwrite it and it was an absolute nightmare.

As you said. Lesson learned :p

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Krystian - Sunlust sunl...@gmail.com
wrote:

I remember when through GAF I got a on-page SEO job for a website, I
was stupid enough to accept it without first looking at the code, it
came out that it's a table based design with images in the markup used
for layouts etc.

I've done as much as I could, but it was a nightmare.

Like Simon posted, it's a good lesson.

Regards,

--
Krystian - Sunlust
Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne:
http://eastbournewebdesign.net
Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337
Call for more information or email me.



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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread Fred Ballard
We need to always remember that if we're being brought in on a project
already in progress, we're probably being brought into a messed-up project
that is failing -- behind schedule, overbudget, unworkable, and in crisis.
Otherwise they wouldn't need us. They've already demonstrated their manifold
failures and now add to them by having fantasies about how we'll be able to
fix the whole ball of mud overnight.

I love Kieren's characterization of a back street bedroom 'I can do that'
wannabee. It seems exactly right. It only lacks that they've indulged in
another fantasy that they can have the website of their dreams while paying
someone next to nothing.

James also gets it right that often brokers want to believe that they have
these miracle workers at their beck and call who can make silk purses out of
sows' ears on a daily basis, earning them money for almost no work on their
part, especially their having to spend time to understand what's actually
going on. Heaven help the person who in any way interferes with their
cashflow.


On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote:

  Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy
 was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of
 updating.



 Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely
 unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange
 and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software
 markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when
 the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe,
 they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not
 much else.



 *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
 Behalf Of *James Jeffery
 *Sent:* 29 January 2009 14:13
 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(



 Indeed. My only problem is I have lost future work from the guy that feeds
 me these jobs because I failed it, he isn't even understanding my situation
 and he's a front-end developer aswell. I mean 10 hours to do a whole lot of
 bug fixing and a near rewite is stupid. Also there was no SV so when I
 edited stuff, they overwrite it and it was an absolute nightmare.

 As you said. Lesson learned :p

 On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Krystian - Sunlust sunl...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I remember when through GAF I got a on-page SEO job for a website, I
 was stupid enough to accept it without first looking at the code, it
 came out that it's a table based design with images in the markup used
 for layouts etc.

 I've done as much as I could, but it was a nightmare.

 Like Simon posted, it's a good lesson.

 Regards,

 --
 Krystian - Sunlust
 Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne:
 http://eastbournewebdesign.net
 Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337
 Call for more information or email me.



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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread Viable Design
I've been feeling a bit guilty for the past few months because I wouldn't
get the bugs out of a friend's insurance-business site for him on the
ultra-cheap. The tables and inline mess would've taken so long to sort out
that I probably would've been better off, time-wise, starting from scratch.
I offered him a discounted rate, but it wasn't enough of a discount for him,
I guess.

Now, I'm thinking I did the right thing after all. I know he wouldn't've
appreciated the clean coding, and he definitely wouldn't've appreciated the
time spent.

Jo Hawke

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.orgwrote:


 On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk 
 kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote:

  Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy
 was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of
 updating.

 Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely
 unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange
 and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software
 markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when
 the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe,
 they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not
 much else.


 Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a Gutenburg Bible
 and reading it… well analysing the lettering and type rather, but hey. :-)


  From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
 Behalf Of James Jeffery
 Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

 [...]


 ---
 Simon Pascal Klein
 Graphic  Web Designer

 Web: http://klepas.org
 E-mai: kle...@klepas.org
 Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas


 Kaffee und Kuchen.



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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread Fred Ballard
I've read that the Gutenberg bible is formatted without spaces. It's
interesting that they aren't essential to reading.

I've also read that it's all uniformly blocked out with so many characters
to a line, so many lines to a column, two columns to a page, and ending with
a full page. In a sense, one of first books (it isn't actually *the* first)
ever printed was the most perfectly formatted ever.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.orgwrote:


 On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk 
 kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote:

  Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy
 was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of
 updating.

 Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely
 unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange
 and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software
 markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when
 the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe,
 they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not
 much else.


 Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a Gutenburg Bible
 and reading it… well analysing the lettering and type rather, but hey. :-)


  From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
 Behalf Of James Jeffery
 Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

 [...]


 ---
 Simon Pascal Klein
 Graphic  Web Designer

 Web: http://klepas.org
 E-mai: kle...@klepas.org
 Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas


 Kaffee und Kuchen.



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[WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li

2009-01-29 Thread Paul Collins
Hi all,

I'm surprised I can't find the answer to this on the interweb; I haven't had to 
do it for a while!

I have a list of about 10 items, all of varying heights (but fixed widths), in 
a single ul. I want to clear every third list item and start a new row. Of 
course, if they are different heights, the list items will float all over the 
place - I'm sure we've all been through this!

I can add a class of clear to every third list item, which is great, but I'm 
still having troubles in getting them to behave in IE. Has anyone got a 
solution, or seen on online lately?!

Here is the code:

CSS
ul#imageLibraryList li {float:left; width:150px; display:inline; margin:0 20px 
15px 0;}
ul#imageLibraryList li.clearLine {clear:both;}

HTML
ul id=imageLibraryList
 li class=clearLine
  a href=/
   img 
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1297_148_148_75.jpg
 alt= /
   strongAlder_140x30.jpg/strongbr/
   dfjdsflkjlk
  /a
 /li
 li
  a href=/
   img 
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1291_148_148_75.jpg
 alt= /
   strongAlder_140x30_BUMP.jpg/strongbr/
  /a
 /li
 li class=clearLine
  a href=/
   img 
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1152_148_148_75.jpg
 alt= /
   strongAlder_190x30.jpg/strongbr/
  /a
 /li
 li
  a href=/
   img 
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1252_148_148_75.jpg
 alt= /
   strongAlder_190x30_BUMP.jpg/strongbr/
asdsdfdssf
/a
 /li
 li class=clearLine
  a href=/
   img 
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1202_148_148_75.jpg
 alt= /
   strongAlder_240x30.jpg/strongbr/
  /a
 /li
 li
  a href=/
   img 
src=/http://xpdev2.thegoodagency.co.uk/ahec/typo3temp/ahecimagelibrary/d_1181_148_148_75.jpg
 alt= /
   strongAlder_240x30_BUMP.jpg/strongbr/
  /a
 /li
/ul

Please ignore invalid code, I can assure you it's not finished! Just want to 
figure out a way to clear the line in all relevant browsers.
Cheers
Paul


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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread James Jeffery
Some people are so tight with money (even those with alot) that they settle
for cheap mess rather then refined bliss.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Viable Design desi...@viabledesign.comwrote:

 I've been feeling a bit guilty for the past few months because I wouldn't
 get the bugs out of a friend's insurance-business site for him on the
 ultra-cheap. The tables and inline mess would've taken so long to sort out
 that I probably would've been better off, time-wise, starting from scratch.
 I offered him a discounted rate, but it wasn't enough of a discount for him,
 I guess.

 Now, I'm thinking I did the right thing after all. I know he wouldn't've
 appreciated the clean coding, and he definitely wouldn't've appreciated the
 time spent.

 Jo Hawke

 On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.orgwrote:


 On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk 
 kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote:

  Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy
 was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of
 updating.

 Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely
 unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange
 and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software
 markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when
 the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe,
 they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not
 much else.


 Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a Gutenburg
 Bible and reading it… well analysing the lettering and type rather, but hey.
 :-)


  From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
 On Behalf Of James Jeffery
 Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

 [...]


 ---
 Simon Pascal Klein
 Graphic  Web Designer

 Web: http://klepas.org
 E-mai: kle...@klepas.org
 Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas


 Kaffee und Kuchen.



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Re: [WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li

2009-01-29 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Paul,


 I want to clear every third list item and start a new row


I haven't tested this so I may very well be wrong, but since you have fixed 
width LIs, if you confine the width of the UL so it only accommodates three 
LIs will the 4th LI drop to the next line?


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com




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Re: [WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li

2009-01-29 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Paul Collins wrote:


I can add a class of clear to every third list item, which is
great, but I'm still having troubles in getting them to behave in IE.
Has anyone got a solution, or seen on online lately?!


Didn't check for the actual case, but it's usually safer to declare 
'clear: left' than 'clear: both' when trying to clear left-floats in IE.

IE has quite a few 'clear' related bugs, and I think this is one of them.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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[WSG] friends? - was( Failed A Job :()

2009-01-29 Thread designer
I did a site for one of my friends 'on the cheap', but put a lot of hours into 
it, and did it as 'properly' as I could. It was all hand coded and validated to 
the point of neurosis. Eventually, he decided that he wanted to pay me because 
he wanted to add a few more pages. When it was done, I told him to 'call it 
£160'. He went barmy - shouted about the lunacy of charging such a crazy 
amount, just for 'putting a few words in and moving a bit of stuff around.  
I've haven't heard from him for six months now, despite us growing up together 
on the same road many years ago.

Friends?  Keep well away!

Bob
  - Original Message - 
  From: Viable Design 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(


  I've been feeling a bit guilty for the past few months because I wouldn't get 
the bugs out of a friend's insurance-business site for him on the ultra-cheap. 
The tables and inline mess would've taken so long to sort out that I probably 
would've been better off, time-wise, starting from scratch. I offered him a 
discounted rate, but it wasn't enough of a discount for him, I guess. 

  Now, I'm thinking I did the right thing after all. I know he wouldn't've 
appreciated the clean coding, and he definitely wouldn't've appreciated the 
time spent.

  Jo Hawke 



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Re: [WSG] friends? - was( Failed A Job :()

2009-01-29 Thread James Jeffery
Aye' I did a task for a friend once. Charged him £100 for a few pages, a
nice design etc. He refused to pay. He is a near millionaire, well his
assets are worth that much.

Business owners don't know how much work is involved sometimes. Even
something basic requires some tweaking for browser support, mobile devices
etc.

To much infatuation with money in the business world. Some people are rich
because they are tight.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 6:30 PM, designer desig...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
 wrote:

  I did a site for one of my friends 'on the cheap', but put a lot of hours
 into it, and did it as 'properly' as I could. It was all hand coded and
 validated to the point of neurosis. Eventually, he decided that he wanted to
 pay me because he wanted to add a few more pages. When it was done, I told
 him to 'call it £160'. He went barmy - shouted about the lunacy of charging
 such a crazy amount, just for 'putting a few words in and moving a bit of
 stuff around.  I've haven't heard from him for six months now, despite us
 growing up together on the same road many years ago.

 Friends?  Keep well away!

 Bob

 - Original Message -
 *From:* Viable Design desi...@viabledesign.com
 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 *Sent:* Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:04 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

 I've been feeling a bit guilty for the past few months because I wouldn't
 get the bugs out of a friend's insurance-business site for him on the
 ultra-cheap. The tables and inline mess would've taken so long to sort out
 that I probably would've been better off, time-wise, starting from scratch.
 I offered him a discounted rate, but it wasn't enough of a discount for him,
 I guess.

 Now, I'm thinking I did the right thing after all. I know he wouldn't've
 appreciated the clean coding, and he definitely wouldn't've appreciated the
 time spent.

 Jo Hawke


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Re: [WSG] friends? - was( Failed A Job :()

2009-01-29 Thread Scott Elcomb
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 1:40 PM, James Jeffery
jamesjeffery@googlemail.com wrote:
 Aye' I did a task for a friend once. Charged him £100 for a few pages, a
 nice design etc. He refused to pay. He is a near millionaire, well his
 assets are worth that much.

 Business owners don't know how much work is involved sometimes. Even
 something basic requires some tweaking for browser support, mobile devices
 etc.

 To much infatuation with money in the business world. Some people are rich
 because they are tight.

 On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 6:30 PM, designer
 desig...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote:

 I did a site for one of my friends 'on the cheap', but put a lot of hours
 into it, and did it as 'properly' as I could. It was all hand coded and
 validated to the point of neurosis. Eventually, he decided that he wanted to
 pay me because he wanted to add a few more pages. When it was done, I told
 him to 'call it £160'. He went barmy - shouted about the lunacy of charging
 such a crazy amount, just for 'putting a few words in and moving a bit of
 stuff around.  I've haven't heard from him for six months now, despite us
 growing up together on the same road many years ago.

 Friends?  Keep well away!

First off, yeah.  Friends: make sure their friends.  If not, keep them closer.

Second, I've noticed a (very) common thing among postings to this
list.  I'll follow-up with the list admin(s) in the next couple of
days regarding standards as far as list communication goes.

Please Note:  I'm not targetting anyone, but there are some
conventions about list traffic.  I don't mind the odd slip (or
complete failure) from people who don't (or at least can't be expected
to) know, but some habits are being repeated (and therefore learned by
newbies) on this list.  I'll make a suggestion and let the list
moderators/administrators approach the issue as they see fit.

-- 
  Scott Elcomb
  http://www.psema4.com/


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Re: [WSG] friends? - was( Failed A Job :()

2009-01-29 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 29, 2009, at 1:40 PM, James Jeffery wrote:


Some people are rich because they are tight.


This has strayed a long way from standards...! But I just have to add  
to the above. Having been the beneficiary of extraordinary acts of  
kindness from truly poor (financially - but how rich in spirit)  
people while traveling, I've come to the conclusion that many people  
are generous because they are poor, and its corollary, many people  
are tight because they are rich.


Now back to work...


Andrew

www.andrewmaben.net
art.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.







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Re: [WSG] friends? - was( Failed A Job :()

2009-01-29 Thread Scott Elcomb
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Andrew Maben and...@andrewmaben.com wrote:
 On Jan 29, 2009, at 1:40 PM, James Jeffery wrote:

 Some people are rich because they are tight.

 This has strayed a long way from standards...! But I just have to add to the
 above. Having been the beneficiary of extraordinary acts of kindness from
 truly poor (financially - but how rich in spirit) people while traveling,
 I've come to the conclusion that many people are generous because they are
 poor, and its corollary, many people are tight because they are rich.
 Now back to work...

I missed this, else I would've just agreed in principle.  In the end
though I'm not sure I agree with the comment This has strayed a long
way from standards.   The reasoning for my position having been made
earlier.

It might not be direct (afterall - this is a Web Standards Group not
an Email Standards Group, however both the Web and Email are very
closely tied.  As person's whose job is to bridge the two, I feel more
than confident to speak.)

-- 
  Scott Elcomb
  http://www.psema4.com/


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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread Lewis, Matthew


On 30/01/2009, at 2:36 AM, Simon Pascal Klein wrote:


I’d expect clean, accessible, and semantic code from a front-end  
developer. Bah—sorry to hear you had such a negative experience. I  
think we all end up taking a bite from the sour end of the pie at  
some point in our profession, and, in the end I guess the best thing  
to do is consider it an experience worth not repeating and learning  
from it.



Lessons learnt. I always check the source first because as they say,  
you can't polish a turd.




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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread Dennis Lapcewich
The ultimate failure is being offered to do a job initially, only to 
inform the customer their plan as written is unworkable from the get go. 
They find someone else to build it according to their plan, only to be 
approached months down the road to fix something.  It turns out that 
others in between tried and got nowhere.  It comes full circle with what 
was built but would never work, and they want you to fix it, something you 
initially turned down. 

It can't be fixed.

Oh, yeah.

It was all paid for with your tax dollars.


Dennis Lapcewich
US Forest Service Webmaster
Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA
360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax
dlapcew...@fs.fed.us

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing 
it. -- George Bernard Shaw


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[WSG] Amanda Finnis is out of the office.

2009-01-29 Thread Amanda . Finnis

I will be out of the office starting  30/01/2009 and will not return until
03/02/2009.

I am on leave until Tuesday 3 February 2008. If  you have an urgent enquiry
please call my mobile on 0410 660 431. Amanda


*
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Victoria, Victoria, Australia.
This e-mail and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential 
information.   If you are not the intended recipient, you may not distribute 
reproduce this e-mail  the attachments.   If you have received this message in 
error, please notify us by return e-mail.
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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread Simon Pascal Klein


On 30/01/2009, at 4:16 AM, Fred Ballard wrote:

I've read that the Gutenberg bible is formatted without spaces. It's  
interesting that they aren't essential to reading.


I believe this is due to the inherent markings of the tops and bottoms  
of the glyphs, particularly the lowercase glyphs. B42s were all set  
with a very Germanic textura blackletter which feature strong diamond- 
shaped markings that allowed the eye to follow the line of these  
markings. Further, back then with the cost of paper and vellum it was  
entirely uneconomical and even more expensive to print (or write) with  
what we today consider an ample leading (line-height). In addition  
Gutenberg let his hyphens lie in the margins (what we know as hanging  
punctuation) further adding to the blocky, well-defined lines.


In fact, the reason why serif typefaces are easier to read (at least  
when printed—it is true that at small sizes on screen and with poor  
hinting serif typefaces quickly become more difficult to read); it is  
the serifs or ‘little feet’ on glyphs that allow our eye to dance in  
saccades along a line by telling us where that glyph starts and ends  
in the vertical space. Add all the characters up, particularly the  
lowercase ones, and the eye will follow all the serifs forming a  
concise line.



I've also read that it's all uniformly blocked out with so many  
characters to a line, so many lines to a column, two columns to a  
page, and ending with a full page. In a sense, one of first books  
(it isn't actually the first) ever printed was the most perfectly  
formatted ever.


Indeed. Gutenberg’s first bible (actually a Gutenberg Bible consists  
of two volumes, each 1280-odd pages: Old Testament, and part of the  
New Testament with the second continuing where the first let off—they  
were divided again because of economical reasons), and the rest of the  
series that followed (180 in total I believe), were divided into two  
columns, spanning mostly 42 lines.



Kind regards.

—Pascal

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.org 
 wrote:


On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk 
 wrote:


Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the  
guy was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current  
with a bit of updating.


Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely  
unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a  
strange and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary  
software markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to  
realize that when the original is written by a back street bedroom  
I can do that wannabe, they're paying for someone who can stick a  
few words and pics up and not much else.


Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a  
Gutenburg Bible and reading it… well analysing the lettering and  
type rather, but hey. :-)



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James Jeffery

Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

[...]

---
Simon Pascal Klein
Graphic  Web Designer

Web: http://klepas.org
E-mai: kle...@klepas.org
Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas


Kaffee und Kuchen.



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---
Simon Pascal Klein
Graphic  Web Designer

Web: http://klepas.org
E-mai: kle...@klepas.org
Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas


Kaffee und Kuchen.



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Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

2009-01-29 Thread William Donovan
Hang on,
did I miss something or is this completely OT (off topic).

Bible's, Gutenberg, print type faces...

Web Standards...?

William Donovan
mobile: 0403 263 284


2009/1/30 Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.org


 On 30/01/2009, at 4:16 AM, Fred Ballard wrote:

  I've read that the Gutenberg bible is formatted without spaces. It's
 interesting that they aren't essential to reading.


 I believe this is due to the inherent markings of the tops and bottoms of
 the glyphs, particularly the lowercase glyphs. B42s were all set with a very
 Germanic textura blackletter which feature strong diamond-shaped markings
 that allowed the eye to follow the line of these markings. Further, back
 then with the cost of paper and vellum it was entirely uneconomical and even
 more expensive to print (or write) with what we today consider an ample
 leading (line-height). In addition Gutenberg let his hyphens lie in the
 margins (what we know as hanging punctuation) further adding to the blocky,
 well-defined lines.

 In fact, the reason why serif typefaces are easier to read (at least when
 printed—it is true that at small sizes on screen and with poor hinting serif
 typefaces quickly become more difficult to read); it is the serifs or
 'little feet' on glyphs that allow our eye to dance in saccades along a line
 by telling us where that glyph starts and ends in the vertical space. Add
 all the characters up, particularly the lowercase ones, and the eye will
 follow all the serifs forming a concise line.


  I've also read that it's all uniformly blocked out with so many characters
 to a line, so many lines to a column, two columns to a page, and ending with
 a full page. In a sense, one of first books (it isn't actually the first)
 ever printed was the most perfectly formatted ever.


 Indeed. Gutenberg's first bible (actually a Gutenberg Bible consists of two
 volumes, each 1280-odd pages: Old Testament, and part of the New Testament
 with the second continuing where the first let off—they were divided again
 because of economical reasons), and the rest of the series that followed
 (180 in total I believe), were divided into two columns, spanning mostly 42
 lines.


 Kind regards.

 —Pascal

  On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.org
 wrote:

 On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk 
 kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote:

 Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy
 was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of
 updating.

 Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely
 unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange
 and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software
 markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when
 the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe,
 they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not
 much else.

 Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a Gutenburg
 Bible and reading it… well analysing the lettering and type rather, but hey.
 :-)


 From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
 Behalf Of James Jeffery
 Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(

 [...]

 ---
 Simon Pascal Klein
 Graphic  Web Designer

 Web: http://klepas.org
 E-mai: kle...@klepas.org
 Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas


 Kaffee und Kuchen.



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 ---
 Simon Pascal Klein
 Graphic  Web Designer

 Web: http://klepas.org
 E-mai: kle...@klepas.org
 Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas


 Kaffee und Kuchen.



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