Re: [WSG] website fonts

2009-06-23 Thread Paul Novitski

At 6/22/2009 08:49 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your
example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's
choice of fonts, instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent big
money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of them.
To actually see his choice, the visitor will have to set is browser to
completely ignore the designer's font choices throughout all documents.

Like Mark, I say let the visitor's choice be the choice applied to most
content, with the designer specifying otherwise only to highlight or provide
character, as in headings, emphasis, or menuing. On body at least, it should
be enough to specify either serif or sans-serif (partial deference to
visitor), or nothing at all (total deference to visitor). If the visitor
wants Comic Sans, let him have it. It's his puter, not yours.



Oh, it doesn't stop with fonts! Some website producers are arrogant 
enough to force text and images on the visitor instead of allowing 
them to enjoy the default text and images they have written for their 
own browser. It's shocking; simply shocking. If people actually 
wanted to read the text, see the images, and enjoy the graphic and 
typographic design of other people (give me a break!), they would 
have connected these computers into a world-wide network and 
permitted us to browse around looking at one another's... hey... wait 
a minute... hmm, let me rethink this one.


Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com



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Re: [WSG] website fonts

2009-06-23 Thread Paul Novitski

At 6/22/2009 08:49 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your
example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's
choice of fonts, instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent big
money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of them.
To actually see his choice, the visitor will have to set is browser to
completely ignore the designer's font choices throughout all documents.

Like Mark, I say let the visitor's choice be the choice applied to most
content, with the designer specifying otherwise only to highlight or provide
character, as in headings, emphasis, or menuing. On body at least, it should
be enough to specify either serif or sans-serif (partial deference to
visitor), or nothing at all (total deference to visitor). If the visitor
wants Comic Sans, let him have it. It's his puter, not yours.



I submit that installing a font on one's computer establishes a 
concrete desire to view text styled in that font to be displayed in 
that font. Conversely, if we don't wish to see text in a particular 
font, we can simply remove it or choose not to install it in the 
first place. We're still at the mercy of PDFs and word processing 
documents with embedded fonts and Flash movies and docs containing 
text-as-image, but plain text HTML cannot force fonts on us that we 
do not choose to see. The user has complete control over their own 
computer in this regard and cannot be forced or coerced by a document designer.


I put it to you that all of the text on a page provides character to 
the page, not just headlines  menus. It is the relationship between 
different fonts on a page that gives it deeper character. Sans-serif 
heads are not the same when paired with either serif or sans-serif body text.


Please explain the boundary you perceive between body text, which you 
feel should not be styled by the page designer, and headlines, 
emphasis, and menuing which you think are OK for a designer to 
design. Why should the page designer not influence the former and why 
should the font-sensitive end-user relinquish control over the latter?


Further, why should we not influence letter forms but have our merry 
way with foreground  background colors, borders, images, surrounding 
margins  padding, line height, and other stylistic memes that can 
affect both readability and the reader's aesthetic context just as 
much as or more than font choice?


I suggest we go ahead and suggest font-families but do it 
intelligently and compassionately, choosing fonts for a particular 
purpose for their grace and readability and compatibility with 
column-width and all the rest of the page design.


Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com 




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Re: [WSG] website fonts

2009-06-23 Thread David Dorward
Paul Novitski wrote:
 I submit that installing a font on one's computer establishes a
 concrete desire to view text styled in that font to be displayed in
 that font.

More usually, it establishes that the system administrator for that
computer installed a piece of software that came with the font.

(Which is not to say that style sheets shouldn't suggest fonts, just that
that isn't a good argument).

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/



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Re: [WSG] website fonts

2009-06-23 Thread Rimantas Liubertas
 Oh, it doesn't stop with fonts! Some website producers are arrogant enough
 to force text and images on the visitor instead of allowing them to enjoy
 the default text and images they have written for their own browser. It's
 shocking; simply shocking. If people actually wanted to read the text, see
 the images, and enjoy the graphic and typographic design of other people
 (give me a break!), they would have connected these computers into a
 world-wide network and permitted us to browse around looking at one
 another's... hey... wait a minute... hmm, let me rethink this one.

Paul, thanks for this one, made my day!

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest

2009-06-23 Thread Smith, Warwick
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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest

2009-06-23 Thread phil . houghton
Thank you for your email.

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If you have an urgent support query, please send an SMS to the support number 
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[WSG] internet explorer 8 problems

2009-06-23 Thread Marvin Hunkin
hi.
will post the message below.
think my problems on the student web project i did.
and when i removed the ../ with just for example a 
href=styles/Joes_Style.css.
just reverts back to times new roman.
so wondering if this is a internet explorer problem for version 8.
so wondering to uninstall it and go back to 7.
cheers Marvin.
ps: still not recongizing my tables.
as a blind web site designer and relying on a screen reader jaws for windows 
10.
using windows vista.
cheers Marvin.

hi.
well took out the ../ for the styles and the java script.
now just telling me times new roman.
and still not displaying the table.
so wondering if a internet explorer 8 problem.
might have to uninstall internet explorer 8.
unless there is a patch, update, or some tool.
i know in internet explorer 8, you can run it in compability mode, except 
not on a local file.
this one is giving me a headache.
if it does not resolve say in the next 48 hours, then will just go and 
uninstall.
tried looking at a few other web projects and get the same problem.
either saying not the font name or saying times new roman.
got windows vista home premium sp 2, jaws 10.0.154.
and using internet explorer 8 full version.
so if i have fixed the src reference.
and looking at my other projects same problem.
so it could be a internet explorer 8 problem.
this is really annoying me.
cheers Marvin.
E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
 Msn: startrekc...@msn.com
 Skype: startrekcafe
Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/
E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
 Msn: startrekc...@msn.com
 Skype: startrekcafe
Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ 




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Re: [WSG] website fonts

2009-06-23 Thread James Ellis



 To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your
 example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's
 choice of fonts,

Yes, that's the point of typography and meeting the requirements of a client 
specification. Provided it's readable I don't see an issue and it can always be 
overridden.

 instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent
 big money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of
 them.
 To actually see his choice, the visitor will have to set is browser
 to completely ignore the designer's font choices throughout all documents.

Again, that's their choice. If they want to see their choice and know that 
they can do that, then they know how to do it, that's their requirement. The 
file they are viewing is in their cache, they can choose to do whatever they 
want with it.


 Like Mark, I say let the visitor's choice be the choice applied to most
 content, with the designer specifying otherwise only to highlight or
 provide character, as in headings, emphasis, or menuing. On body at least,
 it should be enough to specify either serif or sans-serif (partial
 deference to visitor), or nothing at all (total deference to visitor). If
 the visitor wants Comic Sans, let him have it. It's his puter, not yours.

or hers ;) but yeah if they want to uncheck Allow pages to choose their own 
fonts then they can go right ahead as you suggest.
What I'm suggesting is developing to the 50th percentile and making  the 
design work for the majority of the audience.

I'd suggest the outliers would be those who require different fonts for low 
vision requirements (a valid requirement), are die-hard fontists who like to 
control things (their choice, they can do the work to change the font) or have 
a love affair with viewing everything in SomeCrazyFont (and try to explain that 
one to a designer who sees their typographic design looking like crap).

Cheers
J








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RE: [WSG] internet explorer 8 problems

2009-06-23 Thread michael.brockington
Marvin,
Have you been able to confirm whether this is actually a problem with
the display of your page, or a problem with the way that Jaws is
interacting with IE ?
It might be that the font _is_ Times, but Jaws is mis-leading you. Not
too sure what else you would be able to 'see', but have you been able to
prove that IE is seeing your stylesheet at all. For me, I would slap a
garish border or background colour onto some random element, but I
appreciate that you can't do that on your own.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin
Sent: 23 June 2009 12:26
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] internet explorer 8 problems

hi.
will post the message below.
think my problems on the student web project i did.
and when i removed the ../ with just for example a
href=styles/Joes_Style.css.
just reverts back to times new roman.
so wondering if this is a internet explorer problem for version 8.
so wondering to uninstall it and go back to 7.
cheers Marvin.
ps: still not recongizing my tables.
as a blind web site designer and relying on a screen reader jaws for
windows 10.
using windows vista.
cheers Marvin.

hi.
well took out the ../ for the styles and the java script.
now just telling me times new roman.
and still not displaying the table.
so wondering if a internet explorer 8 problem.
might have to uninstall internet explorer 8.
unless there is a patch, update, or some tool.
i know in internet explorer 8, you can run it in compability mode,
except not on a local file.
this one is giving me a headache.
if it does not resolve say in the next 48 hours, then will just go and
uninstall.
tried looking at a few other web projects and get the same problem.
either saying not the font name or saying times new roman.
got windows vista home premium sp 2, jaws 10.0.154.
and using internet explorer 8 full version.
so if i have fixed the src reference.
and looking at my other projects same problem.
so it could be a internet explorer 8 problem.
this is really annoying me.
cheers Marvin.
E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
 Msn: startrekc...@msn.com
 Skype: startrekcafe
Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/
E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
 Msn: startrekc...@msn.com
 Skype: startrekcafe
Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ 




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RE: [WSG] website fonts

2009-06-23 Thread Conyers, Dwayne
Paul Novitski declared:

 plain text HTML cannot force fonts on us that we 
 do not choose to see. 

Hmm... wonder if that explains why WEFT and BITS never quite caught on...  ;~)


-- 
The generation that took acid to escape reality is now taking antacid to deal 
with reality
http://blog.dwacon.com





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[WSG] Lisa Kerrigan/StateDevPolicy/DSD is out of the office.

2009-06-23 Thread lisa . kerrigan

I will be out of the office starting  24/06/2009 and will not return until
26/06/2009.

For Content Requests contact Jason Rhodes.


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[WSG] DoNanza

2009-06-23 Thread Anat Katz
Hi Guys,

thought a few of you might be interested in this new search engine for 
jobs-'The world's biggest search engine for online freelance projects'

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Have a great week,

Anat

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