Re: [WSG] Semantics, lists and links
Hi Ellen A list is semantically correct. It also has advantages for screen reader users as they can navigate lists with a simple key combination. Glen On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:33 AM, wrote: > * > WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST > * > > > From: Ellen Herzfeld > Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:35:03 +0200 > Subject: Semantics, lists and links > > Hello, > > I have been, since forever, using unordered lists to mark up navigation > links. This seems to be the "standard" recommended method used by all > the people in the know. Depending on the situation, the list will be > styled vertically or horizontally. No problem there. > > However, when CSS is disabled (or when no stylesheet is served for old > old browsers), all these links appear as vertical lists with bullets. A > screen reader will, I suppose, pronounce "bullet" every time before > every item as shown in Fangs. > > Now, this is not an issue when the list is four or five items long, but > when it gets to ten items or more, I find the long vertical list to be > obstrusive. > > I am working on a site that has a main navigation menu, styled inline, > near the top with ten links to the ten major parts of the site. > > And in one section of the site, all the pages also have have a second > horizontal navigation menu with the twenty six letters of the alphabet. > > Without CSS, this makes for a very long, very narrow, list of links that > you have to scroll past to get to the meat of the page. Yes, I do have a > "skip navigation" and "go to content" menu at the very top, but still, I > have a problem with this. > > An alternative solution is to put all the links in a with no list > (I'm using html5 elements). The links will then appear on one line when > CSS is disabled. I'm not sure yet if a in the would be > necessary for old browsers. > > The items can be separated by a non-breaking space for readability. > > I am trying to apply "best practices" and make my markup as semantically > correct as possible so I have some questions: > Is there a compelling reason to keep the lists? > Would the markup be dramatically unsemantic without them? > > What do you people think? > > Thanks, > > Ellen > > * > From: Ted Drake > Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:05:18 -0500 > Subject: RE: [WSG] Semantics, lists and links > > A screen reader will not say bullet. It will, however grab that list and ad > d it to a secondary navigation tool for the page. Screen reader users are a > ble to see all of the lists on a page, as well as all headers. They can the > n skip directly to the items they are interested in. So use your lists and > headers. It's good stuff. > > You can also add Aria roles to the list: . > > Ted > > > > -Original Message- > From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On > B > ehalf Of Ellen Herzfeld > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 9:35 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: [WSG] Semantics, lists and links > > Hello, > > I have been, since forever, using unordered lists to mark up navigation lin > ks. This seems to be the "standard" recommended method used by all the peop > le in the know. Depending on the situation, the list will be styled vertica > lly or horizontally. No problem there. > > However, when CSS is disabled (or when no stylesheet is served for old old > browsers), all these links appear as vertical lists with bullets. A screen > reader will, I suppose, pronounce "bullet" every time before every item as > shown in Fangs. > > Now, this is not an issue when the list is four or five items long, but whe > n it gets to ten items or more, I find the long vertical list to be obstrus > ive. > > I am working on a site that has a main navigation menu, styled inline, near > the top with ten links to the ten major parts of the site. > > And in one section of the site, all the pages also have have a second horiz > ontal navigation menu with the twenty six letters of the alphabet. > > Without CSS, this makes for a very long, very narrow, list of links that yo > u have to scroll past to get to the meat of the page. Yes, I do have a "ski > p navigation" and "go to content" menu at the very top, but still, I have a > problem with this. > > An alternative solution is to put all the links in a with no list (I' > m using html5 elements). The links will then appear on one line when CSS is > disabled. I'm not sure yet if a in the would be necessary for ol > d browsers. > > The items can be separated by a non-breaking space for readability. > > I am trying to apply "best practices" and make my markup as semantically co > rrect as possible so I have some questions: > Is there a compelling reason to keep the lists? > Would the markup be dramatically unsemantic without them? > > What do you people think? > > Thanks
Re: [WSG] html5 issue
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: >> "/>" is not necessary to close the meta tag. >> >> >> >> Maybe this solve the problem. > Thierry is correct, the "/" made no difference. It was put back in. Thanks all. -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] html5 issue
>> >> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";> > > change the above line to just that will take care of this error. > > > >> > this line will also throw an error due to too many dashes > > Thanks Jason! That's fabulous! Changing the HTML element was the trick! I can't, however, change the number of dashes as that is a ColdFusion comment and, well, I'm using ColdFusion! Thanks Again. -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] html5 issue
>> >> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";> > > change the above line to just that will take care of this error. > > > >> > this line will also throw an error due to too many dashes > > Thanks Jason! That's fabulous! Changing the HTML element was the trick! I can't, however, change the number of dashes as that is a ColdFusion comment and, well, I'm using ColdFusion! Thanks Again. -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] html5 issue
> "/>" is not necessary to close the meta tag. > > > > Maybe this solve the problem. Imho, the "/" should make no difference, I believe the problem is that this meta is too far down in the markup. The OP should try to put that meta right after -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] html5 issue
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Tom Livingston wrote: > No luck there, but thanks. Here's the head to my page: > > > http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";> change the above line to just that will take care of this error. > this line will also throw an error due to too many dashes -- Jason Arnold http://www.jasonarnold.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] html5 issue
> That was it. I was using Paul Irish's trick with conditional comments > to feed IE's CSS w/o conditionals with this: > And when I said "w/o conditionals" I mean the traditional method, feeding IE's their own sheets. But, as I said, I'll be going back to that now. -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] html5 issue
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 3:11 PM, David Dorward wrote: > > On 27 Aug 2010, at 19:30, Tom Livingston wrote: > >> Line 12, Column 21: A charset attribute on a meta element found after >> the first 512 bytes. >> >> Can anyone tell me why? > > > You have too much content before the meta tag. > That was it. I was using Paul Irish's trick with conditional comments to feed IE's CSS w/o conditionals with this: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";> Mr. Irish using it on the body, with classes, but read on his site that using on the html element was fine as well. Guess not. I think I'll stick to the tried and true conditional comments it's it's traditional use... Thanks David. -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] html5 issue
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Gregorio Espadas wrote: > "/>" is not necessary to close the meta tag. > > > > Maybe this solve the problem. > > > Gregorio Espadas > gespadas.com > @gespadas > No luck there, but thanks. Here's the head to my page: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";> Title Any help would be appreciated. Can't post a link at this time... -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] html5 issue
On 27 Aug 2010, at 19:30, Tom Livingston wrote: > Line 12, Column 21: A charset attribute on a meta element found after > the first 512 bytes. > > Can anyone tell me why? You have too much content before the meta tag. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] html5 issue
"/>" is not necessary to close the meta tag. Maybe this solve the problem. Gregorio Espadas gespadas.com @gespadas On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 1:30 PM, Tom Livingston wrote: > > In an attempt to begin "using HTML5", I am getting this error: > > Line 12, Column 21: A charset attribute on a meta element found after > the first 512 bytes. > > > > > Can anyone tell me why? > > -- > > Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | > ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] html5 issue
In an attempt to begin "using HTML5", I am getting this error: Line 12, Column 21: A charset attribute on a meta element found after the first 512 bytes. Can anyone tell me why? -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] longdesc use case examples in the wild
Hello Everyone, The W3C HTML 5 Working Group Chairs have decided to drop the longdesc attribute from the HTML specification after a poll on the issue [1] [2]. The Chairs' Decision states that: QUOTE This issue can be reopened if new information comes up. Examples of possible relevant new information include: * use cases that specifically require longdesc, * evidence that correct usage is growing rapidly and that that growth is expected to continue, or * widespread interoperable implementation. UNQUOTE I have been collecting examples of Longdesc Examples in the Wild. [3] Any examples or input would be appreciated. Thanks, Laura [1] HTML5 Working Group Decision on ISSUE-30 longdesc By Sam Ruby, Maciej Stachowiak, and Paul Cotton http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/att-0112/issue-30-decision.html [2] ISSUE-30: include a longdesc attribute for images - Straw Poll for Objections http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-30-objection-poll/results [3] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/LongdescRetention#Examples_with_No_Visual_Link_Text_Clutter Related References: Notice of Impending Formal Objection to HTML5 Issue 30 Decision (@longdesc) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Aug/0027.html Longdesc is Dead! Long Live Longdesc! http://www.cfit.ie/news-and-commentary-archive/525-longdesc-rip Strategic Decisions in a Strategy-less Environment http://burningbird.net/node/118 Podcast #83: Fate of Longdesc in HTML5 http://webaxe.blogspot.com/2010/08/podcast-83-fate-of-longdesc-in-html5.html Alone in the Pitch Black Dark http://www.cssquirrel.com/2010/08/16/comic-update-alone-in-the-pitch-black-dark/ No longdesc Attribute in HTML5 http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201008/no_longdesc_attribute_in_html5/ How do we save longdesc? http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/how-do-we-save-longdesc/ -- Laura L. Carlson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
