[WSG] Off Topic - with apologies
Directed to standards aware developers in the SF Bay Area: http://jobs.stanford.edu Job ID# 32035 ...back to your regularly scheduled list-serve, already in progress. Cheers! JF *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Today's lesson: "Respect" - be courteous up or leave
Lachlan Hunt wrote: > Unfortunately, top posting (or failing to quote at all) is often the > result users of broken e-mail clients (usually Outlook or some web > based mail). I find the best approach is to just set a good example, > and hope that others eventually get the idea and/or switch mail > clients. For those users married to their MS Office suite (and thus Outlook), you may be interested in this: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ Problem solved. JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist WATS.ca - Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] ACCESS + KEY still = ACCESSKEY
With apologies for cross posting. Dear Friends, For the many that know me, you will know that a post to any of the lists I subscribe to on the topic of ACCESSKEY will automatically receive a response from me. I think by now my position is abundantly clear on this topic. When I first heard that XHTML 2 was deprecating ACCESSKEY in favor of the ACCESS element and the ROLE attribute, my initial reaction was, "Finally, they will get this right and a predictable, useful, stable means will finally emerge to provide keyboard navigation to those that can truly benefit from it". For while I have continually decried the mess and potential for harm that ACCESSKEY presented, I have always supported and advocated for a better way, and we publicly applauded the W3C for "getting it" too (Aug. 14, 2004 - http://www.wats.ca/articles/thefutureofaccesskeys/66). Along the way however, the ACCESS element has been shackled with the "KEY" attribute, allowing the possibility for the content author to dictate a specific key binding to one or more of the access points, in effect, I believe, replicating and perpetuating many of the most serious issues with ACCESSKEY: keystroke conflicts, little or no conflict resolution, internationalization issues, lack of an existing or persistent standard, etc. And so I have asked the Editors of the XHTML 2 Draft Recommendation to remove the KEY attribute from the specification. The full text of my request is published on the WATS.ca website: http://www.wats.ca/articles/xhtmlroleaccessmodulestillflawed/80 I ask that you take the five minutes required to review my request, and if you believe, as I do, that the KEY attribute has no place in XHTML 2, then I urge you to say so to the Draft Editors at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember, "The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is an international consortium where Member organizations, a full-time staff, AND THE PUBLIC work together to develop Web standards." (http://www.w3.org/Consortium/) Thank you. JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
Felix Miata wrote: > > No, it's not 16px. It's whatever size the user's browser default is > set to. In most modern browsers, it just happens to start at 16px in > most cases, but that is partly by accident, and is subject to user > adjustment in multiple ways. The W3C has specified 16px/96ppi as a standard default text size, and most modern browsers on the Macintosh and Windows platforms have honored that specification since 2000*. (Alas, that rules out Netscape 4.x - grin) None-the-less, today's Standards compliant browser generally renders a default EM as 16 pixels. (See the W3C CSS1 Specifications at www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-CSS1-19990111#length-units plus the Errata Notice correcting the original CSS1 spec. www.w3.org/Style/css1-updates/REC-CSS1-19990111-errata.html) JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] computer arts mag article/review
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: > From my personal perspective, Dreamweaver > has a fantastic coding view similar to Homesite, with the additional > features of FTP, CSS and Site Management. Uhm... It *is* HomeSite, which Macromedia bought to add to their Dreamweaver Suite (they also bought ColdFusion, which shipped with HomeSite as the editing environment, eons ago). You can still purchase Homesite as a stand-alone app, and this old dog still swears by it; I use it daily. JF ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Censorship (was RE: [WSG] IE Showing Transparent - APOLOGY)
Ingo Chao wrote: > Rick Faaberg wrote: >> Where do we draw the line on these sites? > > The reason why this did not happen before on the WSG mail list is > because no poster before did have problems in drawing a line for > himself. > > We should not change this unwritten agreement. Please do not impose your personal morality on this list. I do not believe that we should be censoring materials based solely on content. I *DO* agree that when providing links to examples where the content *may* be of a potentially offensive or questionable content, that it be indicated clearly up front, which did not happen this time. However, the development question it's self was both legitimate and fair game for a list on web standards and web development. What next? No links to religious sites? To pro-choice/anti-abortion sites? To sites dedicated to gay rights and same sex marriage? Who decides where the "line" is drawn? No, I believe posters to this list have a personal and PROFESSIONAL obligation to flag sites containing potentially 'incendiary' content, and then readers can apply their own moral judgment as required (and perhaps this should be added to the List's Guidelines / Rules of Participation: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm, with failure to do so an actionable offense). Anything else is offensive _to me_! JF -- John Foliot Perth, Ontario ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Staying on topic (was RE: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities)
Stuart Sherwood wrote: > >> Hi All, >> If you pass all these test, does this exhaust all accessibility >> issues or are there more? >> Stuart, There are also the "soft" tests - often these deal with areas of cognitive issues, from dyslexia to English as a second or third language, etc. Consider the requirement for appropriate and descriptive ALT text... What is appropriate, and further, who decides? Then there is the whole issue of "readability" - test such as the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level Score can give you an idea if your content is written in language appropriate for the site's intended audience, but it's hardly an exact science. (http://wats.ca/resources/determiningreadability/1). There are also issues surrounding appropriate use of tables, list types, etc. which require judgment calls. Here, once the appropriate container has been chosen (UL, OL, table?), you must then check to ensure that they have been constructed appropriately - for example does your table have (or even require) a summary? Scope / headers & ID, etc.? As for testing tools, in addition to the ones already mentioned, we have collected a number of other "gadgets" which can be of assistance: http://wats.ca/resources/testingtools/44 Geoff Deering wrote: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/full-checklist.html > http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/checkpoint-list.html > > I think there are P3 checkpoints that are not covered here that you > would need to check manually. There are in fact checkpoints under all three Priorities which require "brain" intervention - they simply cannot be tested mechanically. Try running a page through something like Cynthia says (http://www.cynthiasays.com) will quickly show you what needs to be manually checked. Cynthia says also provides a fairly extensive chart of what and how their tests are run (http://www.cynthiasays.com/Standards/CynthiaVersusBobby.htm) > > Just as a side issue, there is a lot of debate in the accessibility > community about the merit of using accesskeys, tabindex, etc. Did somebody say accesskeys? Whoa-boy... Using Accesskeys - Is it worth it?: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeys/19 More reasons why we don't use accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37 Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations: http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38 Link Relationships as an Alternative to Accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyalternatives/52 The Future of Accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/thefutureofaccesskeys/66 > > IMHO, many accessibility practitioners aim for WAI-AA, whilst > incorporating the most practical of the WAI-AAA checkpoints to aid > accessibility. As a general assumption, this is a relatively fair statement. Please remember that the WCAG is now 6 years old (May 1999), and it's showing it's age. Regrettably, some developers must adhere slavishly to the checkpoints - often creating more problems than they are solving, but that is simply due to the fact that the Guidelines were never written to be Standards - but are now serving that role more often than not. If you *do* have the luxury of being flexible, shooting for a WCAG AA+ "standing" is probably your safest position, but determining that "ranking" cannot be measured by simple tools alone - a clear and experienced understanding of the issues will always be required. The clear understanding can come from hanging out in forums such as this one, the WAI-IG (http://www.w3.org/WAI/IG/), WebAIM (www.webaim.org/gettinghelp/) and GAWDS (the Guild of Accessible Web Developers - http://www.gawds.org/discuss/). Many of the regulars on these lists are only too happy to lend a hand and provide answers, etc. when asked. Experience on the other hand takes time... But it's really worth the wait. HTH JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE Madness
Patrick Haney wrote: >> Internet Explorer cannot open the internet site http:// >> www.fifeweb.org/wp/events/evnt_ga_res_2005_01.html. Operation >> aborted. >> >> It seems as if IE is striping off the #top fragment. >> >> Anyone know how to fix this? > > Bob, > Late to the party, but I cannot replicate this problem (IE 6.0.2 / W2K). FWIW... JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] RE: Stupid Questions? (was RE: [WSG] "display: inline-block": valid or not? W3C validator says not.)
Patrick Lauke wrote: >> John Foliot - WATS.ca > >> There is no such thing as a stupid question (although >> occasionally we will see stupid responses...) > > You tell 'em John :) > > P As a point of clarification, when I say stupid responses, I meant in the form of condescending or mean responses, rather than factually inaccurate responses (which sometimes *do* crop up, but not that frequently). My concern was that a "new" member felt intimidated to ask a question here, which made me sad... JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Stupid Questions? (was RE: [WSG] "display: inline-block": valid or not? W3C validator says not.)
SunUp wrote: > I do realise this is probably a very stupid question, and it's more > than a little scary asking a stupid question on this list, but I'll > wear the result if it means I can understand what I've done wrong. > > Thanks, > sunny. Goodness Sunny, There really is no such thing as a stupid question - please, I really hope that this list has not reached the point that newer subscribers feel intimidated to ask questions. Your question was both valid and well posed. Hey everybody! There is no such thing as a stupid question (although occasionally we will see stupid responses...) Cheers all! JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Table header
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: > Lea de Groot wrote: > >> The thead tag is the key - > > If you're using thead, you may as well go all the way and add a tbody > as well... > > > > > IDVar 1Var 2 > > > > > ID VALUE > Var 1 value > Var 2 value > > > Heck, if you're going to go all the way, why not also include the (which comes after the , but before the and essentially mimics the - this is useful for larger tables). Then, if you want to get "real fancy", and you have a larger table, you can set the height of the and make it scroll. While not supported in all browsers, those that don't will simply default to a full table: Sample at: http://wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38 Cheers! JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Accesskeys (Was RE: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org)
Josh Rose wrote: > > What I'm trying to do is have the accesskey underlined, it works fine > in Firefox and Opera (wayhey), but in IE 6 the a:first-letter works > fine, but a:hover doesn't at all (it does without a:first-letter > though) and in Netscape 7 the a:first-letter doesn't work at all > (just netscapes css support?) but a:hover does. Phew. > > The CSS is probably a bit bulky, but go easy on me, I'm newish to > this. > > Any ideas? If at all possible I'd like to avoid CSS hacks. > > Thanks, > Josh. En Francais eh? Bienvenue! Josh, Accesskeys? May I suggest you review the following? Using Accesskeys - Is it worth it?: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeys/19 More reasons why we don't use accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37 Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations: http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38 Link Relationships as an Alternative to Accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyalternatives/52 The Future of Accesskeys: http://www.wats.ca/articles/thefutureofaccesskeys/66 Perhaps after reviewing these, you may consider eliminating them entirely, making your quest a moot point. Cheers! JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Jeff D. Reid wrote: > I joined this list well over two years ago. I have designed sites on > my own utilizing tips and suggestions I have gathered from most > people on the list and other lists. This is the FIRST time I have > had my hands tied as to follow a Graphic Designer/Marketing "expert" > who has new visions for OLP Guitars, which is owned by HHI, for whom > I work in the capacity of Webmaster. Which means now you must pick your battles. Been there, done that . Welcome to the club. > > I have attended college and have received a degree in Web Site Design > and Management. I have worked for various companies in both > full-time and freelance capacities and never in my short 8 year > career in web design have I ever had my knowledge or lack of > knowledge questioned and thus insulted as you have managed to do in > this statement to me: > > "I won't go into all the remaining issues - you're probably aware of > them anyway and have done the best you can with what you know." > > As for the text on the left. I am working within a pre-determined > sized slice of the graphic designer's design. I have changed font > faces, styles and sizes 100 times. Instead of chastising me (for > doing something you have no idea of how I ended up concluding to) how > about doing what this list is meant to do...HELP, ASSIST, POINT ME IN > THE RIGHT DIRECTION! But the answer is very simple. The design must work with the browsers, not against. The "designer" must understand that they too need to have some give and take. If this has happened, we aren't aware of it. Lets start with Standards then: font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Sans Serif; font-size: 9px; Item one: fixed font size - ya, ya, ya not as big an issue now as it used to be, but still considered a no-no. Perhaps try creating you own style sheets rather than allowing Mr. www.csscreator.com crank out this stuff. Are you aware of Nick Bradbury's excellent Top Style and Top Style Lite (http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/tslite/fullver.asp). Why PX? Item two: Verdana? I'm far from a typography expert, but I do know that Verdana has a completely different metric than most of the other sans-serif fonts out there. It's larger, wider, and spaced differently. This may be one of your problems. Yes I hate Arial too (I often use Tahoma), but the number of sans-serif fonts available to you is very limited. But I would strongly avoid Verdana... > If you have an idea of how to make the font > size larger as to be readable yet not break the table, please then by > all means tell me. If it is to get rid of the table, then that is > NOT a viable answer or solution for now, but in time that will come. Using your current "design" technique, you can't. You need to walk away from the table layout - it's that simple. It may not be the answer you seek, but it *is* the answer. > > I work for a company which up until 3 years ago, could have cared > less about a web presence. I am basically in a weird position as the > company's divisions start to grow and add on additional employees > (design and marketing). Yes, I am in control of the sites that > appear on our web servers. But yes, I am also needing to follow > closely the assets that are provided to me regarding the building of > the divisions web site as well. I have written a Web Standards paper > which will be presented to each Division Manager at the next Managers > Meeting. If you would like a copy of it so you can really determine > my level of knowledge or understanding of standards and accessibility > issues, I will send you one. Well Jeff, that's might kind. But my grandmother used to say that the proof was in the pudding. Perhaps you might start by educating your "designer" about the current trends in web development. Make him/her understand that the web is not a print medium, that you can do some really cool stuff on the web that you can't in print, and vice-versa. Perhaps spend some time together looking at sites like CSS Zen Garden for inspiration; proving that standards based "flexible" web sites need not be "boring" or "ugly". But to show up with a site that would be better off as a PDF isn't going to win over any fans or strong support, at least probably not here... > > Oh well..end of rant. I will go back to lurk status and will learn > the old fashioned way...trial and error until I can begin thinking of > myself as some form of an elitist as well.. It may seem elitist to you, but look at it from a different perspective... You come to a list of "experts" who have been pushing, pleading, educating, scolding, extolling the virtues of table-less layouts, and wining about the "evils" of old-school multi-nested table layouts for about 3 years+ now, and you offer what? A table based design with fixed fonts: (extract from your sourc
RE: [WSG] Newbie Questions: East-Asian Character Sets and Marking-up Poetry
Kwok Ting Lee wrote: > This is, I guess, one of the first times I've written anything here, > but I've run into a bit of a dilemma and was hoping for some advice: > > 1. I have a number of analyses of poems I am planning on posting to > my weblog over the next few months, however, I'm a bit stumped as to > what mark-up would be most semantically correct (The poems are quoted > from another source, so for the time being I was thinking of using a > blockquote): > > A. > Title of Poem > > Blah...blah..blah... > More blah. > > > > > Or: > > B. > Title of Poem > Blah...blah..blach... > More blah > ... > > Oh, no, definitely not the second option! Absolutely wrong use of the definition list. Perhaps: Title of Poem Blah...blah..blah... More blah. analyse of poem... In other words, you separate your content from the original authors. You may also want to include the cite attribute, as you indicate that the source of the texts are from elsewhere: http://www.other_source.com";> Also, not sure about Chinese poetry, but I know western poetry often requires specific line breaks, making it a candidate for ... (just a random thought...) Title of Poem Blah...blah..blah... More blah. analyse of poem... Good Luck, HTH JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: 'users with disabilities' WAS: [WSG] New front page for http: //ab c.net.au/
Conyers, Dwayne wrote: > Leslie Riggs wrote: > >> "Following web standards is all well and good, >> but how are you going to stream the audio when >> you can't hear it, if you can't do it this? >> How do you know your method will WORK?" > > Some people can be thick -- even when well-intentioned. > > But on the subject of streaming -- I find that very few streaming > broadcasts use captioning. Most television broadcasts have closed > captioning as mandatory and the ability to transmit text with radio > broadcasts is being used (although, more as an added feature). I > imagine the wild-west unregulated state of the web makes such > enforcement difficult at best. WCAG Priority 1: 1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via "alt", "longdesc", or in element content). This includes: images, graphical representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations (e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames, scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio tracks of video, and video. 1.3 Until user agents can automatically read aloud the text equivalent of a visual track, provide an auditory description of the important information of the visual track of a multimedia presentation. 1.4 For any time-based multimedia presentation (e.g., a movie or animation), synchronize equivalent alternatives (e.g., captions or auditory descriptions of the visual track) with the presentation. FWIW, Captioning is relatively easy these days, even *if* different vendors use different implementations of SMIL. Of the 3 major methods/formats I've played with (QT, Real and Flash), Flash was the easiest, and given the widespread deployment of the plug-in probably the most "universal" of the three. If/when it comes to real-time however, all bets are off , as it still is somewhat labor intensive at the development end. > > I am sure there would be howls of protest if some licensing, such as > an FCC license for broadcasting, would be mandatory for the web -- and > perhaps there should be some "citizens band" version of the web (which > the spammers will overrun) and a "professional" version. Interesting > thought... > Please, no... JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Politically Correct Terminology (was RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/)
Nicola Rae wrote: > Hi, > > Just to chip in, I am writing a couple of articles for GAWDS (guild of > Accessible Web Designers) and have it on authority from them that the > correct terms to use are: > > "In the UK - instead of 'users with disabilities' - it should be > 'disabled users'. > > In the UK - instead of 'physical disabilities' - it should be > 'physical impairment'." > > As I also thought it was users with disabilities. > > Nikki > > For What it's Worth Dept About 3 years ago, I received permission to mirror the following "Words With Dignity" (http://wats.ca/resources/wordswithdignity/35), created by the Active Living Alliance, a NGO here in Canada (http://www.ala.ca/content/home.asp). So, not to be contrary to Nikki, it seems that it may also be a cultural thing, as the ALA suggest "Person(s) with a disability". Perhaps their final advice is most relevant: "Remember, appropriate terminology changes with the times. If in doubt, ask. Most people with a disability will be more than willing to help you." HTH JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
