Re: [WSG] Site check requested

2007-10-30 Thread JonMarc Wright
the site looks good.  visually i would maybe slow down your animated gif a
bit, or include the company name or slogan or something and have it stop
after going through once or maybe looping just a couple of times and fall to
rest on the name/slogan/whatever.  it's a bit fast and i found the constant
movement to be a slight distraction.

just a thought.

looks outstanding for a first effort!

On 10/30/07, willdonovan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Rick,

 I loaded up your page, facinated by your achievement for a semantic
 structure, it looks good, however I'm getting validation errors for the
 DOC type, the img tag and trimming empty on 2 span tags,

 Did you get the same?


 Rick Lecoat wrote:
  I'm recreating a table-based site that I did a few years back,
  rebuilding it (hopefully) to web standards and making it as accessible
  as I can. Currently it's one static page and the links largely don't go
  anywhere, but I would appreciate feedback from the list before I proceed
  with more pages.
  It's really my first stab at a semantic markup, fully-CSS, accessible
  site; it's also my first ever attempt at an elastic layout, so be
  Many thanks!

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Re: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

2007-10-28 Thread JonMarc Wright
If you can make the L2 items show up when the L1 is *hovered over* instead
of clicked, then you can do that using css.  it will require some outside
scripts (usually either javascript or .htc) to get it working in all major
modern browsers, but there are a lot of tutorials out there.

you could check out sons of suckerfish at:
that one uses some javascript to get it working

you could also take a look at:
that one uses proprietary .htc scripts to get it functioning cross browser i

i've used both with good results.

take care,

On 10/29/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 I am using an ul to store level 1 menu items li, each of which
 directs to a page representing a topic.

 I know have a requirement to add in level 2 menu items (zero or more
 beneath each L1 menu item, when user clicks(selects) an L1 menu, the L2
 options should become visible.

 ul id=navmenu
li id=t-Home class=L1a href=index.htmlHome/a/li
li id=t-Bio class=L1a href= Bio.htmlBio/a/li
li id=t-Research class=L1a href=Research.html
li id=t-Teaching class=L1Teaching
  li id=t-TeachingClasses class=L2a 

  li id=t-TeachingCases class=L2a href= T2.html
li id=t-Links class=L1a href=Links.htmlLinks/a/li

 I've started down the rod of using DOM remove the L2 items
 when the page loads and then toggle there addition/removal when a L1 item is
 clickedbut the JS is getting complicated...trying to support IE and

 Is there a CSS way that can:

 A) Show ALL items of CSS is no supported (for WCAG).
 B) NOT impact SEO.



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Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-26 Thread JonMarc Wright

 Except, James, that folk who make elastic layouts very often want the
 aesthetics (graphics)  to expand along with the text etc. This is not a
 problem if you size the graphics in em units, but of course you can't do
 that with backgrounds.



backgrounds can be positioned using relative units.  you can't set the size,
but you can set the size of whatever element in the html you attach them to.

what i think you're talking about i would handle by making a larger image,
then i would choose what part i want to show normally, what the focus would
be.  i would then set the height and/or width of the element i am attaching
the background image to using ems, and then specify the background position
using percentages.  that way, as the text is expanding, so is the canvas
that the image is on, so you see more image, but the focus of the image
remains at whatever i initially chose because i used the percentages to keep
it there despite resizing the box.

play around with it and see what you get.  i think it is discussed in a few
different books as well.

take care,


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Re: [WSG] Catch 22 list problem

2007-10-13 Thread JonMarc Wright

 How hard would it be to have the list start with two empty elements,
 removed from view in what ever way works best?


It would be very simple, though you'd need to use a class for it.
Empty list items isn't exactly semantic, however, and anyone browsing with
css turned off would see two empty list items, as would those using
text-based browsers.  I know that's not a high percentage of the internet
population, but something to consider.

I would probably go with the invalid code at this point, especially
considering the fact that the css methods are not supported by IE 6 which as
we all know still has it's claws dug firmly into the market.

I do not, however, think that the numbers in an ordered list are content in
all cases.  I think there is a line between when the numbers are content and
when they are presentational.

Semantically speaking, I think the ordered list should only be used when the
ORDER of the items is of importance to the meaning of the document.  If you
can take away the numbers without taking away from the meaning of the
document, then in my book the numbers have crossed the line from content to
presentation.  At that point they are there purely as a visual means of
separating pieces of the document to make it easier to read.  Like bullets,
asterisks and arrows they would fall in the realm of presentation.

Not sure if I'm being totally clear there, but that's sort of how I see it.


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Re: [WSG] source order

2007-10-13 Thread JonMarc Wright
agreed, good message Ben...

something this thread made me think about that i really hadn't considered
before, and can't recall reading about anywhere (granted i am new around

with all the skips and jump tos and methods for pulling links and
whatnots, i wonder how many people using screen readers ever make it down
there to the footer/copyright/whatever-else-you-put-there

most sites have the major links duplicated down there at the bottom so the
anyone who has scrolled down can navigate from there if they'd like.  on the
vast majority of websites, this comes ABOVE the copyright portion.  the
copyright portion is also usually where you find privacy notices, terms of
service links, etc.

i'm sure they can be found by someone using a screen reader if they look,
but it just seems like someone listening to a page being read out would
likely move on to a new location before the reader ever got down to that
last section.

any thoughts?

On 10/11/07, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Ben, this is damn fine summary.

 kind regards
 Terrence Wood.

 On 11/10/2007, at 12:40 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote:

  Is there a prevailing wisdom in this matter?
  Content first? Or navigation first?
  This is a jury is still out issue since nobody has comprehensive
  data, just small studies and opinion informed by observation of a
  relatively small number of users.
  What I think we can say for sure:
  1) No matter which way you go, be consistent across the site so users
  can learn how your site works and trust it to work the same way as
  they move through the site.
  2a) Either way, include skip/jump links; but
  2b) Include visible skip links where possible or use
  invisible-but-accessible skip links (ie. do not use display: none; to
  hide skip links as a very large number of users will never be able to
  access them). If they are hidden, try to make them visible on focus so
  sighted keyboard users can see them.
  3) Use meaningful link text and a logical heading structure. Not only
  is this just good practice and good for SEO... the
  accessibility-oriented reason people say this is that some (many?
  most?) screen reader users don't actually read a page from top to
  bottom. They use features which extract all the headings or links into
  a list; read just that list then use that to jump around content. Once
  they identify that they're on the page they really need, then and only
  then will they read the whole page.
  I will no doubt be corrected for saying this - please note that I am
  not saying *all* screen reader users do this. Screen Reader users have
  habits which are just as varied as other web users. No two people use
  the web in precisely the same way - but overall trends and common
  approaches can be identified. Enough disclaimer? :)
  --- The future has arrived; it's just not
  --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] Accessible Open Source CMS

2007-09-13 Thread JonMarc Wright
Anyone here try out exponent cms?
I've found it extremely to use, and administer, very simple to convert
designs as well.  It uses smarty for the view output, and pretty much only
uses code in the actually files that control the design and layout for data
pulling from the database, not for the actual design/style/layout bits.
VERY easy to customize, etc.

I am not a CMS expert, but I've played around with quite a few and played
around with theming/styling templates, validating pages, etc. and *emphasis
on the words --* SO FAR it is my favorite.  I LOVE the fact that it doesn't
have what is essentially a separate site where you handle all of the
administration, most of it is done right on the pages you want to modify.

So I would recommend that...

But I'm always on the lookout for a good CMS so I'll take a look at some of
the other ones mentioned in these e-mails.

On 9/13/07, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Tee wrote:
  [XStandard] Mac version finally came out - a very long wait,
  must be at least 2 year
 It wasn't a straight port - we were pioneering new accessible UI and few
 features such as authoring definition lists at the same time as we were
 writing the OS X code. Whenever you're first to do something, it's always
 going to take longer. For example, it took us 2 months to build support for
 authoring definition lists (dl). Initially we thought dl should be authored
 in a similar way to ol/ul so we spent a month building the authoring
 interface that way. Then we realized that the user will have a much better
 experience if dl was treated more like tables from an authoring perspective,
 so we spent a month re-writing authoring interface. And that's how 2 years
 go by.

 Here is more info:

 Tee wrote:
  thread regarding XStandard porting to Modx and you and the
  developers were going to see if possible. That seems went dead?
 We make a special version of XStandard with most of the Pro features
 available to open source CMS vendors free of charge. Here are the details:
 MODx developers started to integrate XStandard into their CMS but we don't
 know what the current status of that project is.

 XStandard XHTML WYSIWYG Editor

  Original Message 
 From: Tee G. Peng
 Date: 2007-09-12 11:02 PM
  On Sep 12, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
  Tee wrote:
  Personally I don't think there is a fully accessible
  WYSIWYG Editor existed that delivers pure clean code.
  It all depends on how you define fully. XStandard has a keyboard
  accessible interface and most definitely delivers clean, accessible
  Well, yesterday I finally learned that the Mac version finally came out
  - a very long wait, must be at least 2 year; after 6 months of waiting,
  I gave up and completely forgotten as if it never existed. Haven't try
  the lite version so I will take your word and give a benefit of doubt,
  but until then I will reserve my insignificant 2 cents :)
  I remember there was a thread regarding XStandard porting to Modx and
  you and the developers were going to see if possible. That seems went
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Re: [WSG] How many of us are public and how many private?

2007-09-11 Thread JonMarc Wright
 So I wonder, how many people on this list are in the commercial sectorand
how many are in
 the non-profit / public / government / education sector?

Interesting question.

I for one am in both sectors.  I am a technology consultant and I have
various clients that have me employed handling their web operations, or
aspects therein.
At the same time, however, I also handle web and other technology elements
for a couple of different non-profit organizations and an educational
establishment, for which I volunteer my time.

I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people are like that, split somewhere
down the middle.  After all, one has to pay the bills, but every little
thing we put our hearts and minds into for the web doesn't need to be run
out for pennies.

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