Re: [WSG] Background music on web pages
Lesley Lutomski wrote: Thanks to all who have replied. As far as "don't do it" goes, you're preaching to the converted here, but I don't seem to be able to get the message through to my clients. The clients in question are a committee (first problem!), who all say "Oh, I know nothing about computers/the internet" but at the same time refuse to be guided. Referring them to usability articles is a non-starter, because they'll just not look at them. I've tried reducing the arguments to very basic, non-technical issues, but my powers of persuasion are apparently lacking. Given that I can't afford to turn down the work, I'll take on board the points folk have made here and promise to do the least-awful job on it I can! Thanks again. Lesley Are they business people? Then use business language. Talk about their marketing/advertising/ and the budget and the daily work, 24/7, at achieving their brand/image that goes on by everyone at the organisation. That if someone has a bad experience, it has a bigger then expected negative impact: they will tell 20 people. That background music is an instant bad experience, and will undo at least half of the work they have achieved so far. Give it to them in numbers, so they know it is a monetary loss. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1
Steve Green wrote: I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience complex data tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because they have great difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking them up perfectly semantically doesn't help. If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are read sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no sense of the structure and relationships with the column and row headings. If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row headers are read in addition to the cell contents. This provides structural information but the user has to mentally separate the header and cell data before adding them to their mental model. This is difficult enough with simple tables but I don't recall even highly proficient screen reader users successfully navigating complex tables during user testing. What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit from the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I can't think of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. search engines, news scrapers etc) that programmatically access websites that would benefit from this either. Thanks for that Steve! :) Then would the answer, perhaps, be to give a small succinct paragraph about the tabular data, with the most important points (if they exist), and perhaps a link to contact details if the user wanted to know more? And not worry about thead, tfoot, tbody, col, colgroup, etc? Would that be an acceptable accessibility alternative? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1
Gday all, We're all agreed that tables should only be used for tabular data, and should be marked up properly for accessibility. *WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 links about table accessibility and specific markup* WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 5.2 says "For data tables that have two or more logical levels of row or column headers, use markup to associate data cells and header cells. [Priority 1]" http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/#tech-table-structure http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#identifying-table-rows-columns And in a working draft for WCAG 2.0, HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0*, Section 7.5, Identifying groups of rows: Use thead to group repeated table headers, tfoot for repeated table footers, and tbody for other groups of rows. (optional) http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_rowgroup Section 7.6 Identifying groups of columns: Use the colgroup and col elements to group columns. (optional) http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_colgroup Noting, that both are optional, under WCAG 2.0 (working draft). *XHTML Basic 1.1* Now that there are more and more handheld devices being used to access the web, I have been thinking that some websites might benefit from moving to a different markup: XHTML Basic 1.1, particularly if the majority of their user-base are on handheld devices. This way they can serve up something the majority of their audience can use and also allow access through a desk- or lap-top device. *Questions* XHTML Basic 1.1 does not include thead, tbody and tfoot, along with col and colgroup, which is mentioned under WCAG 1.0 and WCAG 2.0 for acessible complex data tables. http://www.w3.org/2007/09/dtd-comparison.html Can a complex table be accessible without these elements, or do we, as developers, accept the loss of accessibility (both on a practical and compliance level) on data tables with the advent of the mobile web**? As much as I might like to support the argument that complex tables should never appear on mobiles, I'm not sure it's realistic. There may be a time when a complex table in XHTML Basic 1.1 is served up to both handheld, and desk- and lap- top devices. In that event, what can the developer do? Kat * Wow, that's a working draft from 2003, SIX years ago. Can that be true? ** Not my preferred option. Is this too complex for a Monday morning? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Embedding XML in HTML
Gday, I don't understand what's going on: 1. I cannot find any element in the HTML 4.01 standard 2. I cannot find any reference to the datafld attribute for span. (Other than being reserved for possible future use: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/dtd.html) Both of these are mentioned on this W3Schools XML tutorial site: http://www.w3schools.com/xml/xml_data_island.asp Is what the W3Schools site discusses as per the standards, and if so, where is it mentioned on the W3C? Kat NB. I am, of course, assuming that when W3Schools says HTML, it means exactly that, and not XHTML. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Validating and validators
Gday, For a good while now I have been using A Real Validator to validate my html offline. Recently, I went back and did a quick search to see what sort of validators are around, and I came across a couple of interesting things: 1. What are your opinions of SGML-parsers vs linters? Do both have their place? Do they have different roles? 2. Is Validome an SGML parser or linter? 3. How accurate do you believe is Validome's statement of errors? http://www.validome.org/lang/en/errors/ALL 4. What is the most successful way in ensuring correct and valid html and or xhtml (considering different validators have different errors)? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] AIMIA Awards
Gday, I find this list filled with dynamic, inspirational people. I come away being motivated and energised. I love youse guys. :) Today, I came across AIMIA (Australian Interactive Media Industry Association - http://www.aimia.com.au/) that are having their 12th Annual AIMIA awards. Is anyone a member of this group? Does anyone know anything about them? Is anyone a finalist? I had a look at some of the finalists and although they seem to require WCAG Priority 1 Accessibility, to reach that, don't your websites need to actually validate (at least some of their finalists don't)? Have I misunderstood? I rather think it's a good idea - but I think it misses a certain something (tableless design, validation, accessibility, etc). There are so many designers/developers on this list (and elsewhere) doing so many amazing things - why don't they ever get recognised for the good things they do? They deserve it more!! Would there be a way to give them the recognition they deserve? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] "What is ..." XHTML Questions
G'day, I had written a huge email with a ton of questions, that I realised many really boiled down to one: How did that one guy, 'beandizzy', pass all three tests? http://www.goer.org/Journal/2003/Apr/index.html#results How do I replicate those efforts? Oh and: 1.What is the difference between the doctype and the standard namespace? What does this namespace provide: 'html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; xml:lan="en" ' that isn't provided by the doctype? 2.>blockquotehowever XHTML document authors are strongly encouraged to use XML declarations in all their documents. Such a declaration is required when the character encoding of the document is other than the default UTF-8 or UTF-16 and no encoding was determined by a higher-level protocol.>/blockquote< http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ Is the XML declaration the XML prolog: ?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" ? So if your character encoding is UTF-8, thus it is OK not to have this XML prolog? Or should that last 'and' have been an 'or' in the specs: Such a declaration is required when the character encoding of the document is other than the default UTF-8 or UTF-16 *OR* no encoding was determined by a higher-level protocol ? Thus if the server sends the character encoding as UTF-8, then this prolog is not needed? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] A legitimate case for pop-ups
I never thought the day would come when there actually was a legitimate use for pop-ups! It's legitimate to use pop-ups, if a court judge orders you to :) http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,18214048%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html Kat :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] occam's razor again - was [ TARGET in 4.01 Strict ]
blqberi wrote: I agree, but just how low do you go?.. on my current job I maintain my dept's intranet site... things are so painfully simple a 2 year old could use the site with ease... unfortunately the adults using the site still have difficulty, or maybe these are less than ordinary users... I dunno. I think that in making it too simple it takes away the point of literacy for some... i.e. they don't attempt to learn. This is an extremely common reaction I receive when I complain about usability issues to individuals within companies about their website. "Oh, you must be a moron." I don't know why I persist in telling people the difficulties I experience in using their sites. If you receive an email from a user letting you know of their difficulties, be thankful and polite. Don't in any way indicate that they are a moron because that was a rare occasion, and most users will never tell you, they just won't shop with you again. Simply because you work with it, and you know it, doesn't mean that other people do. They have a different mental model than you do. They think differently. They perceive differently. Example in case: Take the current Adelaide Fringe Website. http://www.adelaidefringe.com.au/ticketing/Home.aspx Who is this website for? The organisers have a mixed mental model of themselves, the caterers, the volunteers and the performers. The actual audience is left last in their organising frame of mind. They perceived the audience as buying tickets. But the audience comes to the website to find out about performers and events, and their only chance of using this system is to click on the link labeled "Tickets and Merchandise." on the bottom left. I didn't perceive myself as wanting to buy a ticket (just yet). I perceived myself as wanting to find out information about who was performing, what events were on. I emailed them with the task I was attempting to accomplish and the difficulties I had with it, and I got the same reaction: "Oh, you must be a moron." I was fortunate enough to know from other sources that a particular performer was coming to Adelaide to perform, and found out the information that way. The Adelaide Fringe failed me totally. So it's not a matter of people being stupid. It's a matter of *you* understanding how *they* work. If they can't use your website, you aren't communicating successfully. You aren't selling your ideas across. The onus is on you. Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Questions about Data Tables and Accessibility
Hehehe I found something productive to do! For a Good While Now I have been covering my eyes with my hands and singing "la la la" at the top of my lungs to avoid the fact I don't really know how to construct accessible data tables. So I sat down with an old data table that has another nested, and tried to make that more semantic. Despite researching things, I still have a few questions (some are easier than others) : 1. when abbreviating number to no. does the period belong within the abbreviation element? eg. no. or no. 2. How to tell when one table or two tables is better? When is it better to split up the data? What happens if you have two columns with the same name? Is this bad table structure? I have two colgroups that contain the same information, just placing the information in different units. Should I split that into one table for one unit, and another table for the next unit? 3. Are colgroups only for presentation or is there some way to use them to demarcate which data has closer relationships? Are there ids, headers or something involved? How is it done? Is there some sort of way that someone using the accessibility features can choose one or other colgroup? 4. In what order do headers go on table cell data? Does this matter? 5. Does it cause difficulty if you snub a caption because the table is the main (only) element in the page, and thus what would be the table caption really belongs in the level 1 heading? 6. If you have a table-header that spans two rows - is it seen as the table header for both rows? This would mean that there would be a double-up with table cells having the same headers. The data is correct because both sets of data in each row do apply to that particular table header. How do I put that in a straightforwards fashion to reduce the odds of confusing someone using the accessibility features? For example: Headings A B C Table Row Header Data 1a Data 1b Data 1c Data 2a Data 2b Data 2c 7. What is the best thing to do? To place scope or headers, or scope and headers? I will appreciate any questions answered, Thank you :) Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
Kat wrote: Maybe there is a member of Clear Blue Day here on this list and can explain why they have chosen what they have? I sent an email with questions about two of their decisions : why table-based layout and why not include character encoding? Their answer was that they used the table-based layout because they did not like the way style sheets render in IE, and that encoding is not utilised for search engine reasons. Does the character-encoding in your web-page reduce your search engine positioning? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
In the AustralianIT there is an article about the new redesign of the Sunbeam website (www.sunbeam.com.au). I looked it up and it seems to fit Joe Clark's description of a Failed Redesign. http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,17957834%5E24169%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html My question is: is web-standards really considered a part of the professionalism of web people considering that even the IT media (AustralianIT) ignores this aspect? Admittedly, it comes from the same people who confused AJAX with the Dutch Ajax Football team :) Maybe there is a member of Clear Blue Day here on this list and can explain why they have chosen what they have? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Semantic Addresses (WAS the correct use)
This is what happens when uni students are on holidays and have nothing defined set to do! ;) Lachlan Hunt, Peter Firminger et al. was talking about the use of for addresses, (and I am not saying they are right or wrong!!!), I just want to explore an idea I had while reading their posts. I've been thinking about marking up addresses, since the question came up yesterday. I have checked the archives, and either my search-fu is weak, or I can't find this material in it. Some have said some of what I have also said here. I am not deliberatly plagiarising them, as I wrote those bits before I had finished reading all the archives on this subject, that I could find. :) But I did read the archives Jukka K Korpela talks about it a bit (http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/address.html) but makes his decision on presentation, rather than semantics. Should we make decisions about mark-up based on default presentation for non-css browsers? There are hints towards what I'm suggesting in the responses to Dan Cederholm's Simplequiz (http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2004/08/04/sq.html). What I actually am saying: Addresses used to have punctuation at the end of every line, to denote the end of that line, until the habit faded out, and Australia Post complained that their machines got confused. (Good example of the end user having to change their ways to suit service provider!) I think that when we read addresses aloud to others, we respect the former punctuation and add pauses, so that the listener can know that one part has finished and we are beginning another. Taking Lachlan Hunt's example, he has marked up the address as a paragraph with line breaks, and delimited by commas. But woudn't that semantically be the same as : 123 George Street, Sydney NSW 2000, Australia, which is essentially a comma delimited list? I think that an address can be considered as a list of instructions, in a specific order, to find our location, or to send to a location we can find. Kind of like a recipe. Step one: Make sure you send the package to me, and not to another member of my household. Step Two: My household is number 123 on George Street, Step Three: Which is in the suburb of Sydney, Step Four: within the state of NSW, Step Five: with a postcode of 2000, Step Six: and that is all in Australia. If we were either Adrian Mole or JK Rowling, we may add further steps for "The World, The Universe." Taking Lachlan Hunt's example (with the addition of a name): Joe Bloggs, 123 George Street, Sydney NSW 2000 Australia Couldn't that be marked up something like (the name could be changed to a heading or something): Joe Bloggs 123 George Street Sydney NSW Australia And with a little bit of CSS, make it look 'right' (remove bullets, positioning, etc)? What do you think (other than I should find myself something more productive to do)? I really enjoy reading and being part of this list, it makes me think about all sorts of things I would never have given any consideration to previously! So thank you all! :) Kat NB. I mean no offence or harm by this to anyone, and I'm sorry if it causes any offence. I know that this kind of discussion can become heated, and has done in the past, and that some have very strong ideas about how this is best done. I'm not criticising anything, I want to ask people on this list, who I greatly admire, and respect, their opinions. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: Re; Re: [WSG] the correct use.
I want to ask something that's on the same line as the original poster, but a little bit in another direction. Sorry! But, for example, marking up a postal address, a poem or something where line breaks are semantically important, then the use of is ok. 123 George Street, Sydney NSW 2000 Australia For poems and addresses, wouldn't the element be OK as well? Particularly for poems where the use of space both before and after is important? so: 123 George Street, Sydney NSW 2000 Australia ? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] HTML Numeric and Named Entities
I am aware that — is an incorrect character entity for the em dash, that the correct entity is —. But I was mucking about on the W3C Character entity references in HTML 4 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/sgml/entities.html and noted that the named entity references are now linked to the decimal character entity reference, so that mdash refers to —. Is it safe to use the named references that formerly refered to the control characters? If you have used these named references in the past, so long as you have(update to) the correct character encoding, do these automatically refer to the correct entities? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
In a nutshell, a pattern is a "a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem". When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience Gday, Keep in mind I am just a student, but isn't something that describes it at site level more a framework rather than a pattern? From Wikipedia "A design pattern isn't a finished design that can be transformed directly into code <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_%28computer_programming%29>; it is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29 Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic complex issues, such as dynamic binding? But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store. It's quite specific for a particular area. Again from Wikipedia, "a Framework can be considered as the processes and technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the skeleton upon which various objects are integrated for a given solution." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton like which allowed integration with other various objects, and thus more framelike? Point out to me where I have gone wrong. Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms
Gday, I was writing in my blog and was using acronyms and abbreviations and I realised I didn't know something about the right way of doing things, and I'm fairly confident someone here would. This may be off topic because it's a question of accessible and/or semantics. It may be also a little bit persnickety. I understand the difference between acronym and abbreviation, in that an acronym is pronounced as a word, is treated as a word, while an abbreviation is pronounced as a succession of letters. While I was writing, I definately used an abbreviation, created from the first letter of the phrase, eg, HTML. In this case it was one of my uni subjects, ISMR (Information Systems Maintenance and Re-engineering.) But in the next paragraph, I used the same convention of taking the first letter of each word in the phrase to create AIM (Accessible Interactive Multimedia). The Question: Since it can be an acronym, should I mark it up as an acronym, or should I stick to the convention I used earlier in the page to refer to other subjects and use abbreviation? It can be pronounced as the word 'aim' or as each individual letters. What makes more sense from the accessibility point of view? What makes more sense from the semantic point of view? Or is this just a personal choice and has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the end result? Am I over analysing this to death? Kat I have this feeling there's an important point I'm missing somewhere. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Budget Design
What Rick says is true -- it is illegal for US businesses (including individuals who freelance) to discuss rates with members of the same industry. The legal term here is price fixing, and it is taken very seriously, regardless of the intent of the discussion or the context within which the discussion takes place. The Graphic Artists Guild has excellent information on setting prices -- unfortunately, the website is down for maintenance. :-) In my experience (big city US), freelancers should charge 3-5 times the hourly rate they would get paid as an employee at a design firm. While you're thinking about costs -- I have also read studies that show that freelancers tend to underestimate the amount of time it took to complete a project by 40% or more. -Kat -Original Messages- > That's known as price-fixing here in the US and that is illegal. That's not true. Discussing going rates in various countries is not price-fixing. A group of people agreeing to only charge a certain rate is price-fixing. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] new to the list
Title: Message You need to use selected="selected">Select a page -Kat -Original Message- This is the line of code I'm referring to - Select a page and this is the message I get - The attribute "selected" does not have a value.
RE: [WSG] accessible and stylish forms
Title: Message This might be the one: http://www.aplus.co.yu/dots/109/ -Original Message- I saw a web site that described how to create fully accessible forms and make them look purty. Does anyone know where that would be?
