[WSG] Some light reading...

Westciv's free online CSS course - week 1 of CSS Level 1: http://www.westciv.com/courses/free/index.html A Better Image Rotator: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/betterrotator/ WaSP Interviews Jim Ramsey on the redesign of The San Francisco Examiner

Re: [WSG] guide to CSS inheritance

Inheritance gets a bit trickier when you start talking about font-sizes, as they inherit the 'computed value'. A detailed explanation here (under font size and inheritance): http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/advanced_inheritance.htm More on computed values:

[WSG] Sydney WSG meeting

Thanks to all those who attended last nights Sydney WSG. We had 38 people, so it was another big night. There were three topics covered. 1. WE04 update John Allsopp talked about the upcoming Sydney Web Essentials conference (http://we04.com). One exciting addition to the program will be the Web

[WSG] Adopting Web Standards - Free briefing for Education and Government

Adopting Web Standards Free briefing for Education and Government Government and education are at the forefront of the adoption of web standards. To aid in this process, Web Essentials is hosting this free briefing, featuring the W3Cs Dean Jackson, and highly respected web accessibility expert

[WSG] some light reading...

:hover Considered Harmful: http://adactio.com/journal/display.php/20040804214738.xml What is Œthe flow¹?: http://xmouse.ithium.net/archives/2004/08/03/what-is-the-flow Centered links: http://realworldstyle.com/archives/86.html Most common CSS problems:

[WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar

Update on Web Accessibility Toolbar Accessible Information Solutions recently released the latest version of their Web Accessibility Toolbar: Version EN 1.1 http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/ New features include: - one step access to enable/disable IE settings - keyboard access

Re: [WSG] Problem with 3 column layout

I'd start in this page, which has links to many options: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=AnyColumnLongest If you want to use background images you could also try these two... Fixed width layouts: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/ Liquid middle column layout:

Re: [WSG] nested lists as menus...

Hi Scott, These two lists may help: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic2/horizontal03.htm or: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic2/horizontal01.htm Russ on 30/7/04 5:18 AM, Scott Reston at wrote: thanks! just to clarify, i'm not trying to create drop-downs. just style the menu so

[WSG] Some light reading

Throwing Tables Out the Window http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/throwing_tables/ These web sites are identical - or are they? http://phnk.com/design/survey/ A Programmer's Perspective of CSS http://www.uptodata.com/css/ CSS 1.0 Once-A-Day

[WSG] Sydney WSG meeting 5th August

Hi Sydney members, The next Sydney WSG meeting will be held on 5th August - Thursday week. Agenda: 7.00pm - 7.15pm John Allsopp WE04 - things are hotting up! 7.15pm - 7.45pm Russ Weakley A web standards checklist How do you know your site is web standards compliant - with a detailed checklist

Re: [WSG] Re:

The previous email wasn¹t from me, we are looking into it. Don¹t answer or respond to it please. Thanks Russ (the real Russ) Predators Password: The Australian Museum. Australia's first - and leading - natural sciences and anthropology museum. Visit www.amonline.net.au The views in

[WSG] Ten quick tests to check your web site for accessibility

Ten quick tests to check your web site for accessibility http://www.accessify.com/tutorials/ten-quick-tests.asp Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on

Re: [WSG] Underlining tabbed to links

Hi Ben, Please send the list a sample url so that people can see exactly what you have done and will then be better informed to help you. Russ Hi all, I have been trying to get a link to underline and change colour when tabbed to. I succeeded in getting the link to change colour when

[WSG] Some links for light reading...

The Practice of CSS Column Design: Boxes in Columns http://www.communitymx.com/abstract.cfm?cid=CB7B3 A navbar using lists http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/tutorials/quick/list_navbar/index. html Learning CSS http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives/learning_css.php Per-site user

Re: [WSG] Trapping margins .. whats that?

Hi Mike, Basically, the margin top of a child element can (theoretically should) poke out the top of the parent element if no border or padding are applied to the parent. To stop this occurring, top border or padding can be applied to the parent and the child's margin is 'trapped' within the

Re: [WSG] Looking for help and critiques on a new site

Seona, Messages get missed. People are busy and help when they can. Don't read anything into it :) 1. your first problem is due to this: a name=topnbsp;/a Take out the non-breaking space and your columns will sit against the top of the viewport. It affected the left and middle column because

[WSG] The man in blue - presentation to Melbourne WSG

As many of you may know, Cameron (the man in blue) gave a talk to Melbourne WSG recently. He has just posted a more eloquent enunciation of the ideas in the first half of his presentation... http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/07/02/ Enjoy. Russ The Australian Museum.

[WSG] Ten questions for Richard rutter

Richard Rutter, of Clagnut fame (http://www.clagnut.com/) talks about liquid layouts, scaling images access keys, ems, and the standards-based rebuild of Multimap. http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/richard-rutter.cfm Russ The Australian Museum. Australia's first - and leading - natural

Re: [WSG] CSS Block Element Probs...

Chris, From a quick look, you seem have two problems - the box model issue and a border issue: 1. IE misinterprets the box model so your navigation div appears thinner in this browser compared to other browsers. http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/about-boxmodel.htm There are many ways to

[WSG] Some links for reading...

Fluid Shadows: http://www.thoughtanomalies.com/archives/2004/06/20/fluid_shadows/ Structural Naming: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/06/26/structural-naming/ Integrated Web Design: Strategies for Long-Term CSS Hack Management: http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=170511

[WSG] Free presentation for Sydney WSG members and their bosses

As a preview to WE04, Web Essentials and the Web Standards Group will be hosting a free briefing in Sydney for executives and decision makers, addressing the business issues associated with web standards and accessibility. In other words, we want you to bring your bosses along for a short

[WSG] Some links for light reading...

Dan Cederholm asked people to send in web standards links for a free copy of his book. 485 people responded. http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2004/06/16/contest.html In return the community has gained a huge list of web standards links, which Steve Smith has compiled into an ordered list:

[WSG] Ten questions for Molly Holzschlag

Molly Holzschlag is an active and passionate member of the Web Standards Project who is dedicated to providing easy-to-access information about Web markup and design via her books, articles, courses, conference events and website Molly talks about her books, standards, CSS vs tables, the IE

[WSG] Redesigning smh.com.au amp; theage.com.au with css

Project Mars - Redesigning smh.com.au amp; theage.com.au with css Peter Ottery put this presentation together for the Sydney meeting of the Web Standards Group on Thursday June 10, 2004. It outlines the process he and his team used to take the SMH and Age sites from table based layouts to full

Re: [WSG] Accessibililty and the positioning of navigation

I speak regularly to David Woodbridge, a blind user at the Royal Blind Society, Sydney. We used David to test a few of our site over the last few years. Before meeting David I always read that navigation should be last I nthe source. I asked David this when he came to talk to the WSG recently and

Re: [WSG] Order of a state (link, visited, etc) styles in a stylesheet

Does the order matter? Yes! read here: http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/selectors/p_class_s electors.html If so why and is my order above correct? Yes, your order was correct Do we need to have all states styled? No you do not need to style all states Russ The

[WSG] The WSG core team

Hi all, The WSG has a core team who are made up from founding members and City meeting organisers. This core team is involved in overall directions and decision-making to do with the WSG. They are also around to help keep the list on topic, as Peter and I cannot be available 24 hours a day. The

Re: [WSG]   ma\rgin-right

Here are some references http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/33559 http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum83/1177.htm Russ Hi, Where can I read about this work around? Chris * The discussion list for

[WSG] Some links for light reading...

Let's start with some happy stuff... CSS Teaser Box - very nice tutorial from Roger Johansson: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200406/css_teaser_box/ An insane list - Bending the Matrix http://www.orderedlist.com/examples/the_bend Then we have a bit of a validation discussion sweeping

[WSG] Some links for light reading....

Web Standards Award winner for the month: http://www.webstandardsawards.com/previous/readymade_mag.html Web standards survey: http://webstandards.org/survey/200406 Stop Design reload II: http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2004/06/08/reloaded.html Some Fun With Valid and Some Not So Valid CSS:

Re: [WSG] Standard Hacks?

Is the import hack a candidate for first (or sole) item on the list of standard hacks? It seems pretty essential to me to get version 4 browsers to degrade gracefully. CSS hacks are one of those questions (like font sizes) that bring out the fanatics from all sides. On one side you will have

[WSG] Ten questions for Simon Willison

Simon Willison is a seasoned Web developer from the UK, currently working in Lawrence, Kansas. By day, he develops web applications, specialising in both client- and server-side development, for the Lawrence Journal-World . By night, he writes about web standards and technologies on his web

Re: [WSG] draft site check

This will possibly answer your question about using more than H1 on a page: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg02718.html As always, opinions on structural markup come down to personal opinion :) Russ Thanks Russ, The reason I did that was because I wanted to have

Re: [WSG] Correct way to swap style sheets based on Browser?

I was not aware of the @import and that it’s invisible to NN4 Are there any other browsers its invisible to? Anyone? There are a few different methods for importing style sheets. More info here: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg00841.html Russ The Australian

Re: [WSG] Proper usage of Blockquote and Cite

Bert, Cite can be used as an 'element' or as an 'attribute'. The cite element contains a citation or a reference to other sources. It is an inline element: pAs citeHarry Potter/cite said, q lang=en-usLook out!/q/p The cite attribute can be used with blockquote, q, del and ins elements: pSome

Re: [WSG] Accessibility related

This WAI country list is good but Aussies should be aware that NOIE no longer exists and AGIMO has taken over some of its responsibilities: http://www.agimo.gov.au/ A great overview of accessibility can be found here (from Andy Budd): http://www.skillswap.org/downloads/accessibility.pps Russ

Re: [WSG]

Jeffrey Veen caused a big debate by loudly proclaiming I don't care about accessibility - and he's right. If you code nice html, you don't need to care. While there is some truth in this, I'd be hesitant to make such a strong statement. Jeffrey Veen was trying to make the point that using

Re: [WSG] Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here)

I agree with Patrick, blind users use quick access methods like jumping through links and headings on the page that you'd need to know about. Having the tools at hand is still useful as it allows you to get a basic grasp of how they work. You can also test small parts of a page to see how it

[WSG] Ten questions for Patrick Griffiths

Patrick Griffiths talks about HTML Dog, AAA compliance, the HR element, Elastic Design and web standards. http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/patrick-griffiths.cfm Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See

Re: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg... - IMPORTANT!

WSG members, Peter and I have asked members on numerous occasions to avoid posting suggestions or comments directly to the list. The aim of the list is to discuss web standards, not optional ways of running the list. With 600 plus members, we cannot afford to keep having these open debates. It

Re: [WSG] Hi I'm new here

Public: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/ Login required: http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm Thanks Russ Hi all, Is there a searchable archive of this list so I can sort of get my bearings since I'm new here? Rick Ps. Mads, are you here? ;-)

[WSG] Free W3C workshop...

You are invited to a free W3C workshop on the W3C's XForms and Semantic Web Services Activities to be held at the: Location: Room 470, Level 2, Building 10, University of Technology Sydney http://it.uts.edu.au/about/maps.html Time and Date: 23rd June 2004, 2:00pm to 5:00pm (includes afternoon

Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because... Web standards fascism

One of Andy's 10 questions answers reinforced this by the use of words like fascist (a fascist is a pretty nasty thing BTW) to describe some people (easily misunderstood as everyone) in the web standards community who might be overly zealous about whether or not a site validates. Not that I

Re: [WSG] Help with Float

#col1 { width: 253px; height: auto; border-right: 2px dotted #5D355E; float: left; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; clear: both; } #col1 p, #col2 p, #col3 p { font: 12px/16px Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; margin: 0px; padding: 5px 10px; } Mike, There are two small problems with this

Re: [WSG] Help with Float

What you're doing wrong is that you are assume IE6 is getting it right. Floats are suppose to extend past bottom of a container. You could try adding br style=clear:both/. That statement is correct in this instance but might be slightly misleading. It would be better to say that the heights of

[WSG] Ten questions for Andy Budd

Andy Budd talks about web design, web standards, the Web Standards Awards and Skillswap. http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/andy-budd.cfm Thanks Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See

[WSG] Brisbane meeting resources...

Apologies for the delay... The first Brisbane meeting was a huge success. We had 28 people attend, which is quite an achievement for a first meeting. Tony Alsett did a great presentation on floats and forms. You can check out the powerpoint presentation at the meeting minutes page:

[WSG] WSG design competition voting time

Hi all, The design competition closed last week. Those who submitted entries - thank you! Surprisingly, we only had four submissions, which is a bit of a disappointment, but for those that entered there is a much higher chance of winning the prize. :) The entries can be viewed and voted for

[WSG] The joys of list management

A note on complaints about the WSG list. First of all, we are happy to hear your complaints, suggestions and feedback. We try to take all feedback on-board, and address all criticisms where possible. However, sometimes there is no happy middle ground. For example, almost all the complaints we

Re: [WSG] The joys of list management

Yes, we have discussed forums vs lists on several occasions. Each solution has positives and negatives. The general consensus is that a forum is not as effective for sharing and learning as a list - forums are more passive and people are possibly less likely to go there unless they have a problem.

Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign

Of course, you can always look out next week for Ten Questions for Andy Budd - due to go live on Tuesday some time. Russ ;-) I have to admit that I don't get time to post that often so it's not surprising you didn't know I was on the roster. Nick Lo wrote: Ha funny, I've been

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?

Moved to discussion room: http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/16.htm Go for it! Russ Active discussions get their head lopped off when they don't have anything to do with standards. This particular thread covered the value of a university degree in the web design business...

Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary? - ADMIN

For this thread, answers would be better directed to Gabriel offlist. Russ My question to you is this: Do you think it would be wise for me to finish the program and get the degree even though I'm not learning what I want to be learning, or should I just call it off and focus on web design?

[WSG] Ten questions for Nick Finck

The latest in our series of WSG Ten question interviews. This time it is Nick Finck. Nick talks about Digital Web, structure, web standards, liquid layouts and blogging: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/nick-finck.cfm Thanks Russ The Australian Museum. Australia's first - and leading -

[WSG] WSG Design competition is closed

Thanks to everyone who submitted designs for the new WSG site revamp. We will be post them online late this coming weekend for voting. The winning entry will get instant glory, fame and a free book (Web Standards Solutions: The Markup and Style Handbook). Well... maybe just the book... Get your

Re: [WSG] Forms, labels headers

I might revert to tables for layout - no headaches with those. quote Stop! Before you do anything, the most important thing you can do for your learning process is accept that a) it¹s going to take time, and b) you will be frustrated along the way. /quote

Re: [WSG] css syntactical efficiency

Paul, You could use a universal selector like this: #article * { color: blue;} This saves specifying elements within the container, but it will color ALL elements within the container to blue - so it may be overkill for your needs. Well supported by modern browsers including IE5, 5.5 and 6

Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG... MOVED TO DISCUSSION ROOM

This thread has now been moved to the discussion room. Add comments as you wish: http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/15.htm Please do not reply to this thread on list Thanks Russ I use RealObjects eoPro. It produces decent valid XHTML code.

Re: [WSG] Trouble with safari

Be more specific please. What is problem? Russ Hi Guys, Im currently having trouble making the navigation of my site work in safari. It works in all other modern browsers but safari. Site is here -- http://www.creativeedge.net.au/wadigi/temp2.html any help is much appreciated ..

Re: [WSG] Request: Is it semantically correct?

This new example is much cleaner code - less divs etc. However, it is hard to tell if it is semantically correct without real content inside. Some may disagree, but I would have to say at present it looks like it is pushing the DL slightly more than it should as there does not seem to be a direct

Re: [WSG] Request: Is it semantically correct?

'Semantically correct' is one of those tricky questions that gets us all into hot water. On one hand you have code purists who believe that there should be the absolute minimum of extra divs and classes [1]. Anything extra is clogging up the code. There are even purists who believe that any form

[WSG] Some links for light reading...

A Roadmap to Standards http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/04/30/a_roadmap_to/#000571 Does Microsoft Care About Web Standards? http://www.alttags.org/archives/2004/04/29/33/ What Is Web Accessibility? http://www.alistapart.com/articles/wiwa/ Mountaintop Corners

Re: [WSG] positioning 101

Barb, Try this: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/ppc.htm It is rough as hell and there are many other ways you could do it but it meets your basic needs. Keep in mind that the recent IE's do not support min-width. Russ You have all been so patient and immensely helpful as I've waded

Re: [WSG] A tip on using multiple CSS classes

It is spelled 'specificity' (I can spell it but cannot say it to save my life). In your example, they both have the same specificity so it comes down to the order in which they were specified in your css file. In your example '.bar' would be used as it is specified later in the css file. If we

Re: [WSG] in a rule

Barb, That is actually a child selector: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/selectors_child.htm Also worth reading is the document tree and how the child selector works: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/document_tree.htm

Re: [WSG] IE 6 problem

This is probably just IE6 and its treatment of whitespace and carriage returns. I haven't got time to look in detail now but two quick solutions to try: 1. run the entire list and all its contents as a single line of code with no whitespace - should immediately fix the bug. 2. create a new rule

Re: [WSG] ahem class (was: Pre-Site Launch Input)

Hi Will, This has been discussed a few times on this list. Generally the feeling is that the upgrade message has past its use-by date by a fair while now. More here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=3D9FABE7-0458-48F4-623B8 948682690E4 And here:

Re: [WSG] small css question

Paul, Before you jump for joy at this solution you should be aware that it is not supported across older browsers like the Netscape4's and IE4's. More importantly, it is not supported in Win/IE5 or Win/IE5.5. This may not be an issue. For more details, take a look at this:

Re: [WSG] Looking for feedback

Nancy, try here: http://www.browsercam.com/ Dear Andy, Side note question. What is a browsercam account? With only 3% of my users using Opera, Mozilla and Safari, tend to look at Netscape and IE, but I worry about the other browsers. Thanks, Nancy

Re: [WSG] small css question

Paul, The short answer is that if you want to support IE5 and IE5.5 (which are both still very popular browsers) then one method you could use is to wrap your image in a container and use text-align: center; To your other question... It is important to start any site with the usual technical

Re: [WSG] SMH launch

Remember, for Sydney members, Peter will be doing a detailed presentation at our next meeting and notes will be available afterwards for all members: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event10.cfm It might be a bit too long to wait for some more immediate answers :) Russ Hey there Peter,

[WSG] Ten questions for Keith Robinson

Interview number 2 is live: Keith Robinson (of Asterisk fame) talks about web standards, frustration, validation, accessibility, usability and the Golden Triangle. http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/keith-robinson.cfm Thanks Russ * The

Re: [WSG] Trying to add... THREAD CLOSED

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED - OFFTOPIC The mail list does not cover: Discussion of server-side scripting beyond that directly involved with Web Standards http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm If you wish to help further, answer Brian (therGaphixGuy) offlist. Thanks Russ

[WSG] Some light reading...

Fear of web standards ...caused by fear of the unknown, and the feeling of not having enough time and energy to spend on relearning how to do your job http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200404/fear_of_web_standards/ CSS Drop shadows 2 http://www.alistapart.com/articles/cssdrop2/ Stylin'

Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design

Peter Ottery has agreed to be guest presenter at our next Sydney WSG meeting. He will be talking about the Age (and another soon-to-be launched site). He will go through the how he achieved full CSS as well as describing some of the layout decisions he made. Should be great stuff.

Re: [WSG] Accessibility seminar

Having said all of that, I was troubled by the discussion somewhat. It reminded me of the state of web standards back in '99-'00. There was a lot of talk about things like accesskeys and how they were a good idea but without a standard they weren't much use. I feel your pain. Accessibility

[WSG] Some links for reading...

WestCiv have just started their free course program again, kicking off with HTML and XHTML for CSS. Great stuff as always... http://www.westciv.com/courses/free/index.html An exercise in clarity: Web Standards http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives/000648.php?54 456 Berea Street - Developing

Re: [WSG] Web Essentials 04

Well... The cat is out of the bag now... Although we let Sydney members know about the conference at the last meeting, we have been keeping a bit quite about it till the online registration is up and running, which will be within the next few days. We are incredibly excited about this conference

[WSG] Notes from recent Sydney WSG meeting

Last week we held another Sydney WSG meeting, with guest presenters David Woodbridge and Robert Spriggs. It was a great meeting with 45 people attending - our biggest turnout yet. Talking to people afterwards, it seems there a lot of good information presented. For some people it was the first

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