[WSG] future standards

2007-06-21 Thread Alan Trick
Hi,

I just watched a presentation from Robert O'Callahan last night and I
think some of you would enjoy it. He goes over some of the new stuff
that's coming out in Firefox and how Firefox plans to develop the web
and web standards. It includes demos of their new typography support
(ligatures and kerning), built-in video, canvas, offline, APNG, and
other stuff.

One of the really cool this is that Opera already supports a lot of this
stuff too and I think Safari is working on it. So we should have  20%
market penetration of this stuff pretty soon. A lot of it degrades
pretty well too.

The video's at
http://www.meetup.co.nz/2007/06/21/video-june-meetup-robert-ocallahan-from-mozilla-on-firefox-3/
 there's also a short writeup on it on the New Zealand Herald 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5objectid=10446902

I've become a bit cynical with the W3C and their recent slowness to come
out with workable specs (XHTML 2 anyone?). There has only been a very
small advance in web technology in the last few years I've been in the
industry. The WHATWG seems to be taking up the torch well. I hope the
W3C can get in on it though.

Alan Trick


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Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?

2007-06-20 Thread Alan Trick
I don't know if this is important to you, but you should really use GET,
not POST. POST is supposed to be used when you're actually doing
something to a page like submitting data. There, you're just getting a
form. See http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html

Alan Trick

Richard Ishida wrote:
 I put together a box that expands to accommodate larger text in translation, 
 but I forgot that text on a submit button doesn't wrap :O 
 
 Original: 
 http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset.en.php#endlinks (see 
 the box to the right)
 First problematic translation: 
 http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset.fr.php#endlinks
 
 I want the text Send us a comment to look like a link, but trigger a POST, 
 so I put the text in a submit button and styled it. Unfortunately the longer 
 translations won't wrap that way.
 
 form action=/International/2007/06/surveyform.php method=post
 pinput class=interaction value=Send us a comment type=submit/p
 input name=docname value=/International/questions/qa-css-charset.en.php 
 type=hidden
 input name=referer 
 value=http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset.fr.php; 
 type=hidden
 input name=lang value=en type=hidden 
 /form
 
 Does anyone know a better way to do this?  I was hoping to avoid using 
 JavaScript, if possible.
 
 Cheers,
 RI
 
 
 
 Richard Ishida
 Internationalization Lead
 W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)



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RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Alan Trick
I was just thinking about that and I don't think google.com (or for that
matter - anything that company creates) would manage to get more than 1
star.

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 12:00 +1100, Peter Williams wrote:
  From: Herrod, Lisa
  
  Who really pays attention to the badges?
  
  Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page 
  on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear
  to those who are interested.
  
  We work this way because it's best practice and the right 
  thing to do; it's faster and more efficient...
 
 I should point out that I don't use the W3C buttons on any
 sites, I try always to make sites comply with standards and
 to be functionally efficient. I wouldn't use any new rating
 or badge system either unless it was mandated.
 
 I think it would be amusing to see all the pretty but broken
 sites with no stars or 1 star though.
 

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Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-05 Thread Alan Trick
What browser are you using?

That should work on most of them, but Internet Explorer has a
mis-feature were it does something really wierd. I think what it does is
assigns elements with id's to variables with the id's name. I'm not sure
though, I haven't tested it out enough.

The consequence though is that if you try to assign an element to a
variable with the same name as that elements id, IE will fail to assign
the element (the variable will still be null) and it may give a really
cryptic complaint later on if you try to use it again.

Alan Trick

On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 00:58 +, Chris Lamberson wrote:
 . . . .
 
 var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
 var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff'); 
 
 . . . .


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Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-05 Thread Alan Trick
Nevermind, ignore what I said, Bert is right. Although IE may misbehave
as well, it seems pretty inconsitent and buggy.

On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 09:21 +0800, Bert Doorn wrote:
 G'day
 
  I was having some trouble finding out why, whenever I call for
  document.getElementById(id), it returns null (even if there is a valid
  id-matching element). Consider something simple, like this:
 
 The javascript runs as the page loads. At that point, the 
 elements with the ids do not yet exist in the DOM tree (as they 
 are still to be loaded).  You'll need to delay the script until 
 the page has loaded.  Something like:
 
 function init() {
var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
var onoff =  document.getElementById('onoff');
toggle.onmouseover = function() {
  onoff.style.display = block
}
toggle.onmouseout = function() {
  onoff.style.display = none
}
 }
 window.onload=init;
 
 
 Regards

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Re: [WSG] Newcomers and Web Standards

2005-12-04 Thread Alan Trick
I'm going to have to go with Lachlan on this one. IE has as much support
for XHTML as it does for application/foo-bar. If I serve my
application/foo-bar as text/plain, IE will display the page as plain
text. If it 'looks' correct that is only a coincidence.

More importantly IE's HTML parser is not just a standard SGML parser for
certain cases. Try using a DTD and specifying extra entities. HTML has
been broken because people did not follow the specs. Indeed, if browsers
started treating entities properly there would be an increadible amount
of pages broken for missuse of .

If you want another potentially good thing gone bad from missuse you
don't have to look any furthur than RSS and it's 9 (I think, but it
could easily be higher) almost completely incompatible versions. And for
each version there's people sending it with at least 3 different
mime-types. Sometimes people escape they're encoding and sometimes they
don't. It's no wonder that you'll often see lt;emgt; and such in rss
headlines.

Finally XHTML is XML that looks like HTML, not the other way around. I
don't think it's a good idea to teach newcomers about XHTML until they
have a fairly good grasp of what XML is - otherwise they'll just be
doing glorified HTML with /'s at the end of empty elements.

On Sat, 2005-12-03 at 09:50 -0500, Vlad Alexander wrote:
 [Lachlan wrote: IE has no native support for XHTML at all.]
 So it's not native support but there _is_ support. How can you tell
 if there is support, well, you do test-cases. If one can produce a
 test-case of valid XHTML served as HTML to IE and IE parses it
 correctly, then there is support. Why should we care if IE use an SGML
 or an XML parser to process the markup? The main thing is that markup
 is parsed correctly and there is no data loss. How can IE do this
 reliably? Because valid XHTML markup written to comparability
 guidelines is a sub-set of HTML.
 

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Re: [WSG] Konquerer becomes the 2nd browser to pass Acid2

2005-12-01 Thread Alan Trick
While I share you feellings, I also understand why Acid2 wasn't high on
the list of the Mozilla folks. The test itself isn't the be all and end
all of stadards. I personally think that building SVG support into
firefox was a much more important goal and I can't wait till Konqi and
Safari support it as well.

Alan Trick

On Thu, 2005-12-01 at 12:45 +1000, Jason Foss wrote:
 Safari was the first wasn't it?
 
 Hope a Windows browser manages that soon... :(
 
 On 30/11/05, James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi all
 
   Just read this via KDE dot news (http://dot.kde.org/1133270759/)
 
   Konqueror is the second major web browser to pass the Acid2 CSS test,
  ahead of Firefox and Internet Explorer
   http://www.kde.org/announcements/visualguide-3.5.php
 
   This was done in June 2005 but was only ported to a stable branch released
  today. Bravo Konqi and a good day for better standards support. Both Konq
  and Safari share a similar codebase (KHTML : http://khtml.info ).
 
   Cheers
   James
 

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Re: [WSG] Javascript dependant devices

2005-11-30 Thread Alan Trick
Text browsers: there are a few like links that are exeptions to this
rule.

Normal browsers with Javascript turned off. You might be surprises how
many people do that. Internet Explorer has a serious JS vulnerability so
it would make sense for those users to turn it off.

Search Engines

Rendering engines in email clients. I would assume that most have it
turned off by default. An exception might be Outlook as it has a pretty
low security level.

Any other robot crawling your site for some reason or another.

Depending one the situation - a particular peice of javascript might
cause issues with some browsers. Particularly people using things like
greasemonkey.

As far as mobile devices are conserned - most of them do not. Trying to
implement javascript in a mobile device is quite difficult. There are
some though that are working on it. I don't know if there in use though.

Alan Trick

On Wed, 2005-11-30 at 12:44 +1100, Herrod, Lisa wrote:
 
 can anyone point me to an up to date list of browsers and devices that
 either do not support Javascript or whose functionality is impeded by
 JS? 

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Re: [WSG] firefox 1.5 is official

2005-11-30 Thread Alan Trick
On Tue, 2005-11-29 at 15:44 -0800, Ted Drake wrote:
 Firefox has just officially released 1.5
 http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/releases/1.5.html
 
 It's time to upgrade. If you haven't been using the beta, you'll be
 pleasantly surprised.
 
 Ted 

Great. I hope they fixed the copy-and-paste issues in linux. Those were
really anoying because they would lock up your whole screen.

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Re: [WSG] CSS Validators

2005-11-28 Thread Alan Trick
On Thu, 2005-11-24 at 12:42 +1100, Geoff Pack wrote:
 Does anyone know of a downloadable CSS validator (other than the W3C one) 
 that I can install on an local server to batch check files on my local 
 network? We currently use the WDG html validator, but their CSS validator is 
 not available for download.
 
 Cheers
 Geoff Pack
 

Is there a problem with this:
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/DOWNLOAD.html

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Re: [WSG] CSS Validators

2005-11-28 Thread Alan Trick
On Thu, 2005-11-24 at 12:42 +1100, Geoff Pack wrote:
 Does anyone know of a downloadable CSS validator (other than the W3C one) 
 that I can install on an local server to batch check files on my local 
 network? We currently use the WDG html validator, but their CSS validator is 
 not available for download.
 
 Cheers
 Geoff Pack
 

Is there a problem with this one:
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/DOWNLOAD.html

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Re: [WSG] page break up

2005-11-28 Thread Alan Trick
On Mon, 2005-11-28 at 00:25 -0400, Jay Gilmore wrote:
 Lori, 
 
 I am going to suggest that you download Firefox or Mozilla to develop
 with. You will find that IE is too forgiving and allows errors to fall
 through the cracks by trying to render the page vs. not parsing
 invalid code.

IE is forgiving! But it just murdered all my poor, innocent floats :(

Alan Trick


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Re: [WSG] Re: University textbook or other resources?

2005-11-26 Thread Alan Trick
Since your at a univeristy you might as well take the time to go over
the some of the more theoretical stuff. This is particlularly a good ida
if your talking to CS students who are more interested in that kind of
thing.

Probably one of most important things is Semantics. Paricularly the
separation of style and content, although semantics covers a lot more
too. Of course don't over do it (join the www-html list on w3.org for
examples :P) but I htink it will give the students a firm foundation for
a lot of the whys behind how things are done.

As far as server side languages like PHP, JSP, and the other
abominations - I think that probably belongs in another course. Mainly
because there is a lot of stuff that needs to be covered here
(particularly security issues). If the students haven't done at least
some programming you might find that either 1) it ends up becoming a
second Introduction to Programming 101 or 2) the students won't have a
clue as to what they're doing and will get more confused because there
is an extra layer they don't understand.

Alan Trick

On Sat, 2005-11-26 at 00:06 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 There are two magazines out of the UK that sometimes offer tutorials
 that you can use in the classrom. One is called WebDesigner and the
 other is called Practical Web Projects
 http://www.paragon.co.uk/wd/index.htm
 http://www.paragon.co.uk/pwp/index.htm
 
 If you want to teach web design from a standards perspective, there are
 three books listed in the right hand column of my blog at
 http://www.netmix.com/wordpress, along with other books that I singled
 out from Amazon that might be useful to you. One is Jeffrey Zeldman's
 Designing with Web Standards.
 
 I also recommend starting to look into Open Source products, like Typo3,
 Mambo and other Open Source Content Management systems.
 
 Web designers need to learn how to design around open source module
 macros.
 
 For example, Movable Type, Wordpress and other blog systems are all open
 source CMS tools. A web designer is going to need to think about how to
 create templates based on the functionality of these CMS systems. The
 ones I mentioned are php/mySql, but there are other that are Java, ASP
 and JSP as well.
 
 A good resource to get open source CMS tools is opensourcecms.com.
 
 I have yet to find a book that teaches you how to actually think about
 design, fontography and layout, then bring you into HTML production,
 then bring you along into database integration. Since all these methods
 are disparate from each other, but depend on each other, most books
 usually focus on how to's rather than to think creatively.
 
 Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but believe me, I've been looking.
 
 In the local Barnes  Noble, there have been many books published that
 you can find in the Graphic Design section, which showcase high end web
 design. That may also be a place to look as well.
 
 Tony Z.
 
 
 
 
 Laura Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 11/26/2005, 01:04:35 AM:
   I've been asked if there are useful university-focused
   textbooks or other resources suitable for teaching
   accessible web design.
  
  As Lloyd and Matthew mentioned Joe Clark's Building Accessible 
  Websites, New Riders Publishing, 2002 is well worth considering.
  
  I have been using it for the web accessibility classes that I teach. 
  The Clark book does not assume the reader understands the basics of web 
  accessibility. I specifically chose it because of that and because it 
  goes beyond simply repeating the party line from the World Wide Web 
  Consortium (W3C) or Section 508. That is one of the purposes of the 
  classes - to not just read the specifications, but actively engage 
  them. Challenge, dissect, understand, and learn what makes the most 
  sense. Also Joe put the whole book online[1] so if students don't want 
  to purchase it for the class they don't have too.  However, the soft 
  cover version of the online book has screen shots and images. The 
  online version does not.
  
  The Web Design Reference [2] is a huge online mega-reference (over 
  3,000 links) of information and articles about web design and 
  development that you might find useful. It has a full section on books 
  [3] as well as online resources (accessibility, CSS, usability, web 
  standards, and many related topics are covered).
  
  You might also find the Web Design Update Newsletter [4] helpful. It is 
  a plain text email digest that typically goes out once a week as an 
  adjunct to the site.
  
  All the Best,
  Laura
  
  [1] http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/
  [2] http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/
  [3] http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/books#access
  [4] http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdevlist
  
  ___
  Laura L. Carlson
  Information Technology Systems and Services
  University of Minnesota Duluth
  Duluth, MN  55812-3009
  http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign

Re: [WSG] xhtml doctypes and charsets

2005-11-26 Thread Alan Trick
My personal feeling is that you should be using the HTML 4.01 doctype.
Your not going to achive anything by using an XHTML doctype and it's
technically invalid. Remember *every User Agent will (and should) treat
your code as HTML*. If you put a skirt on a man it won't make him a
woman. Weather or not a page is HTML/XTHML is determined entirely by the
mime-type.

Also there's nothing wrong with using HTML. I think the standards people
have gotten a bit confussed on this one. HTML is a W3C recomendation -
it's been around for a while and will still be around for a long time -
there's not reason to worry about future proof with HTML.

The other thing is that I don't think anybody besides the odd bot ever
looks at those meta tags. That information belongs in your http headers.

Alan Trick

On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 10:46 -0400, The Snider's Web wrote:
 Hi Everyone,
 
 I am going to delurk to ask a question :)
 
 I have been using html 4.01 transitional on my sites and have slowly 
 branched out to xhtml. However, I remember that there has been some 
 discussion on other lists about the 'dangers' of using xhtml. Here is what 
 I have seen used, what would be the pluses and minuses of using this combo?
 
 !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN 
 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd;
 html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
 
 meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 /
 
 I usually use this charset:
 meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
 
 Any links or advice would be much appreciated.
 
 Cheers
 Lisa 
 
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Re: [WSG] CSS and PHP

2005-11-14 Thread Alan Trick
Another issue: this may be caused by ussing sessions. When PHP manages
sessions using GET queries as opposed to Cookies it might do this to
your. What it does is appends PHPSESSION=w/e to the end of your urls,
by default the  is *not* escaped. There's a way (in php.ini I think) to
fix it. Check http://php.net/session for details.

Btw, I think talking about server side processing is kind of OT on this
list, but if you have any more questions about PHP and such feel free to
email me off-list.

Alan Trick

Bert Doorn wrote:
 Tim Burgan wrote:
 
 Just a quick note that'll help:
 In the URL, the special characters (such as ampersands, question
 marks, etc) need to be converted to html character entities. 
 
 
 Question marks do not need to be converted.
 
 Regards

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Re: [WSG] Design_Time_Lock

2005-11-14 Thread Alan Trick
I think thedailywtf.com needs a seperate section for web developers.

Btw, googling 'Design_Time_Lock' gives some interesting results.

Robert Nicolson wrote:
 
 This is another Visual Studio .Net designer related question I think,
 
 I have had a quick google, but would anyone be willing to back me up that
 'Design_Time_Lock' is not a valid html or css attribute.
 
 I am sure it is about as valid as'Design_Time_Drag_And_Drop' is but someone
 on my team insists on placing it in code that is about to leave.
 
 tia,
 
 Robert
 
 
 blah blah blah .
 
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Re: [WSG] PNG Question

2005-11-14 Thread Alan Trick
Terrence Wood wrote:
 Patrick H. Lauke said:
 
IE does not natively support 24 bit alpha transparency on PNGs without
some seriously hacky workarounds.
 
 
 ...which is to say that IE *does* support 8-bit transparency (i.e. same as
 gif).
 

That is about the only reason to ever use the GIF any more. Apart from
that GIF is pretty much useless. Everthing it can do PNG does better.
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Re: [WSG] Web page check

2005-10-16 Thread Alan Trick
This tool might help:

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A//www.jimjacobe.com/ClassDescriptions.html

Alan Trick

GALLAGHER Kevin S wrote:
 First off the site was designed before Firefox and was my first site.
 Now I have been seeing things were Firefox is displaying something’s
 differently then IE which is fine except one thing.
 
 On http://www.jimjacobe.com/ClassDescriptions.html  I have listed
 classes for an instructor, items 2, 4 and 5 (some others farther down
 have the same issue) have text positioned incorrectly in Firefox but
 look correct in IE, specifically the content starting “An” in the first
 two problem areas.
 
 If someone can look at this and tell me what needs to be done to fix
 this. Not necessarily looking for the fix code wise but more of is this
 a syntax issue or something I simple did wrong and IE is doing it’s
 thing to fix things.
 
 Thanks for taking the time to look at this page and if possible provide
 some feed back
 
 Kevin
 
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Re: [WSG] IE team says no to hacks

2005-10-13 Thread Alan Trick
If you don't use CSS hacks you have 2 options.

1. Avoid CSS that is buggy in a browser.

2. Use other hacks like conditional comments. (Conditional comments
*are* hacks, there just intentional ones)

Number 1 is simply not an option unless your willing to look like
useit.com or something. Number 2 is hardly any better because when
future browsers come out either they will have fixed their CSS
implementations (and then life is happiness and glee) or they won't.
With CSS it's likely that you will have to do touchups but with
conditional comments you have to write another css file all together.

Also I don't want an M$ bitching session either. IE7 may not be perfect,
but it's a step towards interopability and standards (which is a really
big thing for Microsoft). I think we should encourage it all we can.

Peter Firminger wrote:
 If you've gone against all sane advice and used CSS hacks then you knew
 exactly what you were in for with future browsers and potential problems.
 
 I don't want to see an M$ bitch session develop here while Microsoft are
 seemingly trying very hard do the right thing (at last). Obviously we have
 to wait and see what the final release does.
 
 At that point, I really hope you're (general) not going to charge your
 customers if you have to fix up bugs (hacks) that you knowingly induced into
 their websites if you didn't make it clear to them at the time that hacking
 may require rectification in the future.
 
 Sorry for the smug told you so, but many people including myself have made
 this very clear over the whole life of WSG. You only have yourself to blame.
 
 Peter
 
 previously comment=I'm really sick of html emails on this list

I second :)

 It sounds more like they are taking a stand against the designers who tried
 to work around those buggy problems. They aren't cleaning up their own act,
 just making it harder to hack around them. IE 7 still has some of the quirky
 implementations that make older versions of IE so difficult to design for.
 /previously
 
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Re: [WSG] Browser Stats

2005-10-13 Thread Alan Trick
Helmut Granda wrote:
 
 . . .
 
 it seems like FF is loosing terrain, is w3schools accurate?

No they're not, in fact I think there is a note about how they are no
accurate on the page there.

 Or is there
 anyother place that I can check what the general public is using.
 

There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. While you
might be able to get a bit of an idea from looking at different sources
you should take everything with a grain of salt. Even on the best sites
you probably looking at _at least_ 5% to 10% margin of error, so a
change in 2% is pretty much meaningless.

Rick Faaberg wrote:

 On Mac, I think FF pretty well s*cks

Very true, I've used firefox on my sister's Mac and it's a pig. It was
still better than safari for me because of the extentions and other
stuff I can't live without, but a pig nonetheless. Apparently the've
done a lot to fix that in 1.5, well see.

In my experience Firefox runs a lot better on linux, and even faster on
Windows. A lot of the stuff that firefox does on linux it could really
improve. I think the reason that it's like that is because most of the
main developers use windows and they're trying to appeal to the
mainstream (i.e. Windows users). I assume the case is the same for Mac,
only worse.
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Re: [WSG] Redesign of a danish library website - help/comments

2005-10-13 Thread Alan Trick
Web page designed by clueless person. Film at 11.

Personally I think both designs have issues. The font size is too small
on the first one, and in the second one its a good size but it overflows
eveywhere. And don't go in to the code behind it all.

Kids these days :P

Felix Miata wrote:
 Soren Johannessen wrote:
  
 
Next week bibliotek.dk [Denmark] (url http://bibliotek.dk) is going to
redesign their website
In bibliotek.dk you will find records of all items published in Denmark
as well as all items found in the Danish public  research libraries.

There is a beta version ready http://proto.bibliotek.dk/ - This was a
chock/surprice to see such a bad redesign in 2005 from a web standards
point of view. I am going to write a review  article (sorry this article
is going to be in Danish) what's wrong with this new redesign.My major
findings and what is wrong is [...]
 
 
 You're right about having a lot wrong. This shows just a few problems
 (it is worse farther down, or when zoomed):
 http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/soren1.png
 
 The text is too small, and it often doesn't fit into the spaces allotted
 for it. The text is (too small) via relative sizing, but the space for
 it to fit is frequently set with px for container height or line-height,
 and overflow: hidden to go with it. The result is a lot of hidden or
 overlapping text when the user's browser is using uncommon settings.

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Re: [WSG] Is a colon after a form label necessary?

2005-10-13 Thread Alan Trick
Yes, but it also depends on the context. Remember that the input does
not nessisarily follow the label. And in some situations, a colon might
not fit (visually).

Alan Trick

Zach Inglis wrote:
 It makes things easier to associate in my opinion. At the end of the day
 its just punctuation... like using a full stop to separate content. 
  It may help too when the CSS is turned off.
 
 Zach Inglis 
 
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[WSG] IE team says no to hacks

2005-10-12 Thread Alan Trick
I personally think that this will be unrealistic for the time being. But
it's nice to hear that the IE team is starting to take a stand agains
the problems their buggy software created.

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/10/12/480242.aspx
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[WSG] Re: Date verification in HTML pages

2005-10-11 Thread Alan Trick
Google indexes web sites, so the information that they have would be
dated to when the contents were chached. For example if you google
'baseball' you will get a list of results. If you read it you will
notice that they have a date (all the ones dated were cached on  9 Oct
2005). The ones near the bottom aren't dated, but if you look at
google's cache, it has the date listed on it.

As far as the websites themselves. HTTP headers have a category for
'Last-Modified' and the same thing can also be done using a meta / tag
(however, this is rare and poor practice). Unfortunatly the
Last-Modified header it usually isn't useful for what your looking for
because many site generate dynamic content. (I can give a longer
explaination if you want it).

Ultimately it's up to the web developer to provide that information in a
way that make sense for the application. Blogs, for example, will
include the date of writting and possibly information on any edits
(ins and del would be useful for this). It's something that
usability people can push, but the w3 can't really enforce it in any
meaningful way.

Alan Trick

Vignesh Mathivanan wrote:
 Hello,
  
 I have a question that has been in my mind for a while now. As a novice
 web developer, I frequently rely on the web to provide me with technical
 help/guide on various topics to help build web applications. During
 these occasions I find it increasingly difficult to verify the date of
 last modification of the web document returned by Google search. This is
 very important as the end user needs a way to ensure that those web
 pages providing content on issues that change over time are up to date.
  
 Is there a credible way of verifying this date or if not could it be
 enforced by the consortium in future HTML versions?
  
 Thank you,
  
 Regards,
 VIGNESH
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Alan Trick
1. Why use spans and not divs when divs are already block level
   elements. No need for CSS styling.
2. The main compelling reason to use br's is because semanically that
   is the right way to do it. Not a big deal I though because a line
break is a fairly semantically neurtal thing anyways.

Just my thoughts.

Alan Trick

Jon Tan wrote:
 Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of 
 Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: 
 http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view
 
 My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual 
 effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then 
 style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically 
 useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: 
 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
 
 Jon Tan
 Grow Collective
 www.gr0w.com
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
 Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
 
 
 I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
 and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below
 I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:
 
 pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
 The Secretarybr /
 Your Clubbr /
 PO Box 999br /
 Anytown VIC 3000/p
 
 How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
 contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
 a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?
 
 If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
 this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?
 
 Hope Stewart
 
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Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool search plugi n!

2005-10-09 Thread Alan Trick
Not much to wory about though. You can download the file open it with a
simple text editor and read it.

=== standardistas.src =

# Rollyo Search - Sherlock Plug-in

SEARCH
  name=Standardistas
  description = Standards-based web development resources 
  method=GET
  action=http://rollyo.com/search.html;
  update=http://rollyo.com/tools/mozsearch/src.html/rollyo-4080-4886.src;
  updateCheckDays=3

input name=sourceid value=Mozilla-search
INPUT NAME=q user
INPUT NAME=uid VALUE=4080
INPUT NAME=sid VALUE=4886

/SEARCH

BROWSER
  update=http://mycroft.mozdev.org/plugins/standardistas.src;
  updateIcon=http://mycroft.mozdev.org/plugins/standardistas.png;
  updateCheckDays=5


===

with out all the ='s. No spyware here.

Alan Trick

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Fake Google Toolbars Spreading Identity Theft
 
 Beware of guests bearing Google Toolbars. That's because a
 series of phishing probes are making the rounds that deliver
 a faked version. Install the real-looking software, and your
 credit cards and other personal information are captured,
 then transmitted to a shadowy group of criminals. We've got
 details on how the scam works, and what to look out for, in
 our security alert.
 
 Beware Fake Toolbars:
 http://ct.eletters.whatsnewnow.com/rd/cts?d=181-544-1-278-911239-26861-0-0-0-1
 http://ct.eletters.whatsnewnow.com/rd/cts?d=181-544-1-278-911239-26861-0-0-0-1
 
 On 10/6/05, *Buddy Quaid* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Weird, i cant get to the site...i think it's blocking my ISP or
 something. I tried ping and nothing, i could trace and ping from an
 outside website but not from my machine.
 
 
 Buddy
 
 Drake, Ted C. wrote:
 
 Hi buddy

 The link got mangled, try www.tdrake.net http://www.tdrake.net/
 it's the first post.

 Ted

  

  

 

 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Buddy Quaid
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:52 PM
 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool
 search plugi n!

  

 Your website will not pull up for me.

 Buddy

 Drake, Ted C. wrote:

 I didn't have room for all of them but I've added most of the
 sites below.

 Ted

  

  

 

 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *bit
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:15 PM
 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool
 search plugin!

  

 hi all,

 maybe some suggestions for the ff-toolbar ...

 http://www.sitepoint.com/
 http://digital-web.com/
 http://cssplay.co.uk/
 http://tanfa.co.uk/
 http://www.stylegala.com/
 http://kottke.org/
 http://www.wpdfd.com/

 nice greetings from vienna :)


 2005/10/6, Drake, Ted C. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Hi All

 As many of you may have seen, I created a search plugin for
 Alistapart.com http://Alistapart.com
 that allows you to search their posts for information.

 That was just the tip of the iceberg. I really wanted to create
 something
 that would allow me to search all of my favorite coding resources
 without
 having to wade through outdated posts, spam, etc in a typical search.

 Chris Pederick comes to the rescue today with a post about Rollyo, a
 personalized search engine portal.  Well, today, I created a
 standards-based
 web portal and then made a cool plugin.

 Go to my web site:
 
 http://www.tdrake.net/standards-based-web-development-resources-made-even-ea
 
 http://www.tdrake.net/standards-based-web-development-resources-made-even-ea
 sier/ to download the standardista plugin.

 You can now search all of these sites from the comfort of your firefox
 toolbar:
 *   alistapart.com http://alistapart.com
 * w3.org http://w3.org
 * simplebits.com http://simplebits.com
 * meyerweb.com http://meyerweb.com
 * stuffandnonsense.co.uk http://stuffandnonsense.co.uk
 * shauninman.c...
 * splintered.co.uk http://splintered.co.uk
 * stopdesign.com http://stopdesign.com
 * andybudd.com http://andybudd.com
 * jasonsantamaria.com http://jasonsantamaria.com
 * accessify.com http://accessify.com
 * clagnut.com http://clagnut.com
 * 456bereastreet.com http://456bereastreet.com
 * quirksmode.org http://quirksmode.org
 * tantek.com http://tantek.com
 * positioniseverything.net http

Re: [WSG] Top Ten Web Design Mistakes - yeah, right!

2005-10-07 Thread Alan Trick
The problem with testing has been argued about. The fact that Nielsen
only surveyed his subscribers, most of whom are quite different from Joe
User, probably provided different result than if more 'average' testing
was done. However, I don't really think that's a bad thing. I think it's
actually better that way.

The greatest issue that I have with usability testing and such is that
they rely on the flawed assumption that the users know what they want.
Don't fool youself. From my experience, if you ask Joe User what an
Office program should look like, he'll describe what MS Office looks
like, and if you ask what a search engine should look he'll say (in more
or less words) like Google.

This happens a *lot* in linux, so much so that usability testing in
linux essentially means 'trying to make it look like Windows'. Which is
terrible because Linux is not Windows, and to try to make them the same
would be a disservice to Linux.

The same thing happens on the web (although less so). I read though the
report and I saw this in serveral places. Particularly in the search
section. Why does everyones search form need to be like Google's? Why do
the search results need to be on a seperate page? Having a javascript
search function that brough real-time result may lead to an increase in
functionality (as long as you have a proper system set up for users
without javascript).
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Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.

2005-10-05 Thread Alan Trick
James Bennett wrote:
 On 10/3/05, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
Most Linux systems have neither Verdana
nor Arial installed, at least not by default.
 
 
 True, but these days nearly every Linux distribution ships the free
 Bitstream Vera font set, which includes a sans-serif with metrics
 similar to Verdana. Also, the core web fonts are typically available
 as an easily-installed package for most distributions, which will
 provide Verdana and other fonts. I've found that the following works
 well for providing compatibility to Linux users (and as a full-time
 Linux user for a number of years, I can personally attest to its
 effectiveness):
 
 Verdana, Bitstream Vera Sans, Lucida Sans, sans-serif
 

I would assume that the most linux users either 1) have 'core web fonts'
installed or 2) don't mind having web pages that look really weird.
Browsing the web without that package will get you lots of issues all
over the place (even with it I stumble across websites every once in a
while with unreadibly small font-sizes.

That said, I have Verdana on my Linux box (and it looks way better than
Poley's windows(?) version does).

The other important thing to note is that the vast majority of users
either can't scale fonts because they're using a broken
coughIE/cough browser or because the don't know how (or even that it
was an option). It's very important to have readable defaults.

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Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.

2005-10-05 Thread Alan Trick
Because it's an ugly bastard of Helvetica?

I'm no typographist but my sister absolutely hates that font. However,
Windows donsn't really have any nice looking fonts anyways.

T. R. Valentine wrote:
 On 04/10/05, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
IMO arial isn't so hot for the web anyway.
 
 
 OK, I'd like to hear some opinions. A lot of the pages I produce need,
 for technical reasons, a Unicode font (especially the 0370–03FF,
 0400–04FF, 0500–052F, 1F00–1FFF, and 2000–206F ranges). I find 'Arial
 Unicode MS' very handy for this. Plus, it is a sans-serif style which
 is generally regarded as superior to a serif font for screen reading.
 
 A typical CSS entry for me is:
 font-family:'Arial Unicode MS','Everson Mono Unicode', 'Palatino
 Linotype',Code2000,'TITUS Cyberbit Basic','Athena Roman', Athena;
 
 (I know I don't have a generic, but that's because there really isn't
 a suitable generic.)
 
 
 So my questions are: what is wrong with Arial (Arial Unicode MS in
 particular)? are there better font alternatives? (I generally provide
 links for downloading these fonts because there is not a reliable
 means of providing fonts to web users.)
 
 I would very much appreciate suggestions.
 
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Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

2005-10-03 Thread Alan Trick
On http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/products/vbdoodle/ the text in the
'VB DOODLE' box is overfollowing. This is on Firefox 1.0.7 Gentoo Linux.
My guess is that this is an issue with fonts because my default font is
not that ugly monster (:P) known as Times New Romans. Fonts tend to be
quite an issue because the fonts on one system are often different (in
size and style) that the ones on another. It's not a serious issue, but
if you could avoid fixed heights that would be nice.

Hopkins Programming wrote:
 Hey guys,
 
 If you wouldn't mind checking out my website,
 http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/, I would greatly appreciate it. 
 There is one thing in particular I would like help with - On the
 homepage, the 3 large images are divs w/background images, and
 display:block hyperlinks.  It works fine, but it fails WAI WCAG 1.0
 Priority 2 Checkpoint 13.1 - Create link phrases
 http://webxact2.watchfire.com/themes/standard-en-us/help/HIDD_WDContent_G34.html
 that make sense when read out of context.  I know it can be fixed by
 changing my p's to span's and moving them inside the hyperlinks, but
 is that something I should do?  The text in the p's is good, but I
 don't think it's worthy of being in a hyperlink.  Would it be best to
 create a short sentence to go in the hyperlinks that briefly describes
 the page the user will get when the link is clicked, or ?
 
 Any assistance on this matter would be greatly appreciated.  You're
 welcome to poke around for other problems (I know have a few sementic
 naming issues in my CSS) because I always like feedback.
 
 Thanks a bundle guys!
 
 --Zachary Hopkins
 
 * Reference Links:
Website: http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/
W3C WCAG: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/
 
 -- 
 ==
 The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

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Re: [WSG] Check

2005-10-03 Thread Alan Trick
Interesting,

Not really a problem with your site, but I just checked the headers of
the top 4 sites and they had Content-Type: text/html.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi guys,
 please check my new experiment. 
  
 A Xhtml Websites List Directory. Sorry but is in italian language.
  
 http://www.gizax.it/vtre/xwl.php?pag=0
  
 cheers
  
 Daniel
 http://www.gizax.it

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Re: [WSG] Extreme Tracker and xhtml

2005-10-03 Thread Alan Trick
I'm not quite sure what's going on, but the fact that they use
document.write raises big flags:

EXd.write(img src='http:\/\/e0.ex...lots of nasty mess...dth='1');

document.write is not part of the DOM standard and will does not work on
XML pages (including XHTML). Your page is being sent as HTML so that
shouldn't be the problem, but regardless, that javascript is terrible by
modest standards. My suggestion is that you install php (or get a host
that supports it) and make your own.

Lyme Info wrote:
 Hi again,
  
 I made some more changes since posting, and I thought I had it working. 
 It seemed it was a line-wrap problem.  I found that I could turn off
 word-wrap in my text editor.  I hadn’t realized how important that was
 for javascript.  I made the change for the medical site, and it
 started to work! 
  
 I then went to the index page and removed the code from the splintered
 site.  I copied and pasted the code exactly from medical, changed the 3
 spots for user ID, and made sure the java code was on one line.  I
 viewed the source code to confirm.  But it isn't working.  I thought it
 was just an extreme tracker delay, but I've now waited quite a while and
 it still isn't tracking.  (It tracks me so I can easily test that)   I
 keep looking at the code and am baffled.
  
 Anyway, I felt I should say something since I changed things since my
 previous post and the code won't appear as I previously described.
  
 Cheryl
 
 *//* 
 
 *//* 
 *//* 
 */Lyme Info /*wrote:
 
  
 
  
 
 Through a google search, I came across the discussions on this list
 about making the extreme tracker compliant, but I am still having a
 tough time getting it to work.
 
  
 
 http://www.lymeinfo.net/medical.html
 
  
 
 http://www.lymeinfo.net http://www.lymeinfo.net/
 
  
 
 
 Yahoo! for Good
 Click here to donate http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ to the
 Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

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Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

2005-10-03 Thread Alan Trick
I just looked at the page in a text browser (links) and there's a couple
of anoying issues.

1. This is not bad, but a bit of an anoyance. There is a notice about
not having javascript. This appears at the top of the page. I don't
think this is really neccisary. If you really want it, put it at the
bottom of the page.

2. The links on the front page for VBdoodle and Web Design don't show up
because of the lack of CSS support. Mabye this was intentional, but it
would be nice if you had it like it was for the third box or something.

3. The links for validation appear right at the top. I understand why
they're there (and it looks pretty cool in css browsers). I don't know
if there would be any simple way to have this put at the bottom for
text-browsers, but it would be nice if you could because they're not the
most important links on your site.

For the most part though, things look fine though. It sure beats most of
the sites on the internet.

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
 Hopkins Programming wrote:
 
 @All - Still need suggestions on the WAI conundrum.
 
 
 http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/
 
 
 Well, I think you should definitely put some descriptive text in those
 links, as my text-only browsers can't even see that there are links
 there at the moment. Don't think that qualifies for 'AAA'...
 
 Something like
 - 'learn more about wb doodle'
 - 'learn more about web design'
 would solve that.
 An 'off screen' technique will make it work with CSS off.
 .off-screen {position: absolute; top: -9000px; left: -9000px;}
 
 However, since such a link-text should also work as a substitute for an
 alt-attribute--with images off, maybe better leave the text on screen
 and use a variant of http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_chaos_14.html
 Should satisfy WAI-checkpoints and will work no matter what -- and may
 even be useful for visitors.
 
 Georg

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Re: [WSG] Page templates submitted for review (discard previous mail)

2005-10-02 Thread Alan Trick
Yes. It's not as evil as some things, but it is certainly bad practice.
You'd be much better off using HTML 4.01 (which is, last time I checked
a valid spec).

Julián Landerreche wrote:
 As long as I know, you shouldnt serve XHTML 1.1 as text/html. You
 should serve it as text/xml, or application/xhtml+xml
 I read it may be... dangerous!
 
 But, of course, I dont really understand what I'm talking about I'm
 just repeating what I have read on several sites.
 
 Julián
 Christian Montoya wrote:

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Re: [WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions

2005-09-30 Thread Alan Trick
If at all possible don't use class names that describe the way something
looks, but more what the thing actually is. I find that using names that
discribe the style of something will almost always come back to bite
you. And depending on how large you project is, it can bite pretty hard.

I was working on a job for a company about 6 months (I was still very
new to web design then). The original thing they had there was a mess,
with FONT tags and other such ungodly tags up the wazoo (it was the
unfortunate result of someone useing Frontpage). So I converted it all
to the XHTML 1.1 specs, but in the process I used a couple of classes
like 'brownbox' and 'bluebox'. Well it turned out that those were poor
color choices, so it turned out that my 'brownbox' was actually
greenish, and my 'bluebox' was grey, and several other things that had
followed the same wort of thing. So in order to keep any subsequent
developers from going crazy I had to change all the class names. Which
was a lot of work given the aweful mess that ASP is.

I also agreen that human-readable URLs are a great idea; however, the
implementation of that sort of thing is very dependant on what your
working with, so unfotunatly it's difficult to give any guides.

Alan Trick

Nick Gleitzman wrote:
 James Oppenheim wrote:
 
 I tend to use underscore for class and id, try very much to stay away
 from two word file names.
 
 
 This is a question (discussion?) that comes up every couple of months
 here on the list - ultimately, I reckon you'll get as many 'conventions'
 in use as you've offered suggestions. I think it's very much down to the
 individual - and the ease with which other members of a team (or
 inheritors of legacy code) can work with your css.
 
 I believe there are strong arguments for creating filenames that result
 in logical, human-readable URLs.
 
 Underscores in class  id names are not a good idea - some browsers
 don't read them properly, and the styles aren't rendered properly, if at
 all... from memory, an early Safari was one such.
 
 HTH
 N
 

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Re: [WSG] Printing Footers

2005-09-30 Thread Alan Trick
IIRC, position:fixed will do that for you, i.e.

#footer{
position:fixed;
bottom:0; right:0; left:0; height: 2em;
}

would create a 2em footer at the bottom of every page; however I don't
know how well this is supported. Internet Explorer certainly doesn't
support it.

Krassy wrote:
 Hi everyone,
 
 Is it possible to get repeated footers to print using
 XHTML/CSS? I asked this question on the CSS-discuss
 mailing list, but got no response.
 
 I've done some research[*] and experimentation, but
 haven't been able to get a footer to print
 bottom-aligned on every page.
 
 [*]
 http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alaprintstyles
 http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=PrintingHeaders
 
 Any and all suggestions and ideas are much
 appreciated...
 
 Thanks,
 Krassy
 
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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

2005-09-30 Thread Alan Trick
I think the future of CSS is not in hack or in conditional comments but
in using standard CSS. At the current time this isn't really possible
because of Internet Explorer, but from what I've heard about IE7 they
plan to do a fair amount of fixing up. Things won't be perfect and
support for nice stuff will still be lagging severly, but at least there
will be some platform that we can work off of.

CSS was designed to be backwards compatible, so as long as you're not
doing something that would create an accessibilty issue (like things
dissapearing) it would be quite alright to server modern CSS to the
browsers that support it and the ones that don't will properly fall back.

Of course, I'm basing this on the idea that IE7 will be up to the hype
that the guys at msdn are saying, and that MS won't sit down and abandon
the web for another half-decade.

Drake, Ted C. wrote:
 I think the future of CSS is not in hacks but looking seriously into
 using the conditional comments. I’m saying this as someone that is
 trying to figure out the best approach for retrofitting older conversions.
 
 Conditional comments are IE statements that say if ie6 use this
 additional CSS file, if IE5Mac, use this style sheet, if neither: ignore
 this statement.
 
 IE7 is going to throw a curveball worthy of a World Series ring.  While
 it is easy and more convenient to throw  a * html statement into a CSS,
 we need to start seriously looking at separating our hacks into
 different style sheets and intelligently using filters and conditional
 comments to refer to them.
 
 I think the approach this person is suggesting is very 2005, we need to
 look at 2006 answers.
 
 I’m dreading the idea of inserting conditional comments into the head
 sections of html pages. I’d like to insert it into the main.css file
 that imports more sophisticated styles.  I have been overwhelmed lately
 and haven’t been able to test any answers to this. Does anyone have a
 suggestion?
 
 Imagine teasing someone that their CSS is “So 2005!”  Did I just coin a
 term?  Has Joe Clark already coined this one?
 
 Ted
 
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Re: [WSG] css variables

2005-09-29 Thread Alan Trick
Hassan Schroeder wrote:
 Terrence Wood wrote:
 
 
Constants and variables are not going to part of CSS any time soon, so you
will need some kind of server side solution ...

AFAIK they all use seom form of regex to do the replacement
 
 
 Well, no -- I frequently use variables in style sheets built in JSP,
 especially early on in development. And there it's simple Expression
 Language (EL) variable substitution, so something like this:
 
 a:hover, a:focus { color: ${contrastColor}; }
 
 can be evaluated per site, per session, or even per request, making
 it really easy to test, tune, and/or customize...
 
 FWIW!

You can also do almost the same thing with PHP just do the following:

?php

$variable=do your declarations here;
$bg=#fff
$h1=100;
$w1=20em;
header('Content-Type: text/css');
echo 

html{
color:#123;
background:$bg;
}

#header{
height:{$h1}px;
width:$w1;
}
;
?

note that it's important that there are double quotes on the echo and
not single.
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Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!

2005-09-29 Thread Alan Trick
The whole idea that a float *even can* be sematically incorrect is
absurd. Floating is simply a style, the way something is positioned and
it has no implyed semantic meaning whatsoever.

That said, it's an honour to know that were popular enough to warrant
trolls ;)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What a laugh. I especially love this quote...
  
 
 Since when are using Floats for page-level layout, semantically correct?
 
 Floats are designed to float images within the context of a paragraph.
 Yet many designs that are supposedly Web Standards compliant, use floats
 to create page divisions.
 
 Here is just one very quick source from the W3C that justifies the use
 of floats for positioning of a box of content...
  
 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#floats
  
 and goes on to say what the float property can be applied to...
  
 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#float-position
  
 So I guess his claim that floats are designed to float images within
 the context of a paragraph may need a little more research.
 
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Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!

2005-09-29 Thread Alan Trick
Just stay on this mailing-list and you'll hear *plenty* of points of
view's :)

p.s. It's good netiquite when your sending emails to a mailing list, to
use text-only (no html nastyness). In Mozilla Thunderbird you can set
this by going to Tools  Options  Coposition  'Send and HTML options'
- Send Options and add webstandardsgroup.org to the list of plain text
domains. I don't know how to to it for MS Outlook, but you should really
stop using Outlook (for your own safty) anyways.

Good Luck

Craig Rippon wrote:
 Thanks for the comments everyone. I am a somewhat overwhelmed Web
 Development college student and was keen to hear your points of view
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Re: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility

2005-09-29 Thread Alan Trick
Actually, Tatham was kind of right in a way. It is possible to get
ASP.NET to give you compliant code. However, compliance and web
standards are *not* the same thing. Compliance is only part of web
standards (and one of the smallest IMHO).

Take for example the Internet explorer blog on msdn.com
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/. The search form on the could be completely
valid markup (it's actually not because the id names start with an
underscore, but it could be). However, the code there is emphatically
*not* standard. Essentially they are trying to make a link to something
that a sumit input or button element should be doing. To cover up this
unholy substitution, they use a bunch of javascript. Of course the form
is completely broken to users without javascript.

Alan Trick

csslist wrote:
 wasnt bashing m$ was saying a FACT, you shouldnt have to use a 3rd party
 tool to get it right and your server-side lang shouldnt destroy your
 markup without user error.
 
 see other reply, the guy was right!! It does obviously favors ie and
 last i check ie and compliance werent on the same page.
 
 whats next? You gunna say frontpage writes complient code (if you know
 what you are doing) ;)~
 
 
 Tatham Oddie wrote:
 
 Not true – you just need to know how to use it properly instead of
 Microsoft bashing.
 
 If you do want to use the built in controls and still get compliant
 markup, I can provide you with a really simple article on how to do so.
 
 Thanks,
 
 Tatham Oddie
 
 ..
 
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Re: [WSG] Slashdot HTML 4.01 and CSS

2005-09-25 Thread Alan Trick
Yeah, it's been nice, that was one of the things I alwasy hated about
slashdot. It got particularly funny and flamish whenever they posted
articles that had to do with web standards.

It's great to see more big sites moving towards web standards, hopefully
Google will get around to it some day.

Nick Lo wrote:
 Slashdot HTML 4.01 and CSS
 
 After 8 years of my nasty, crufty, hodge podged together HTML, last
 night we finally switched over to clean HTML 4.01 with a full complement
 of CSS.  While there are a handful of bugs and some lesser used
 functionality isn't quite done yet, the transition has gone very
 smoothly.  You can use our sourceforge project page to submit bugs and
 we'd really appreciate the feedback.  Thanks to Tim Vroom for putting
 the HTML in place, Wes Moran for writing the HTML in the first place,
 and Pudge for writing the code to convert 900k users, 60k stories, and
 13 million comments to comply.  And for the brave, download the
 stylesheet and start experimenting with new themes and designs for
 Slashdot: some sort of official contest to re-design Slashdot is coming
 soon, so you can get a head start now.
 
 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/22/1324207from=rss
 
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Re: [WSG] Konqueror and Galeon issues

2005-09-23 Thread Alan Trick
I'm running Konqueror 3.4.1 w/ KDE 3.4.1 on Gentoo Linux and there
aren't any problems at all when I go to your website. Konqueror and
Firefox render it exacly the same. On top of that IIRC Galeon uses
gecko, which is the same thing Firefox, Mozilla, Epiphany, et al use so
they should render the same.

I don't know what is up w/ brosershots.org, but I don't think it's a
problem w/ your website. I think you can just safely ignore that.

Alan Trick



Webmaster wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 The fix provided the other day to clear floats and make disappearing content
 re-appear worked well enough in most browsers.
 
 However, having just performed a preview test at http://browsershots.org
 (incidentally, this site deserves an award for its service to the web-dev
 community), I'm horrified to discover that my third column is pulling back
 into the centre in these two broswers.
 
 The question is: should I care? Is this due to quirks in those browsers? All
 others display just how I intended.
 
 The screenshots can be viewed here:
 
 http://browsershots.org/website/363651/
 
 Do I simply need to apply my fix to ALL higher-level container divs?
 
   /* Improved hack for Peekaboo bug which causes content from #middle
 to disappear
   if its height is less than that of #right. Include backjslash here
 for IE5-Mac \*/ 
   @media screen {
   * html #middle { height: 0; }
   }
   /* end fix */
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Re: [WSG] Show Hide by Class

2005-09-21 Thread Alan Trick
Yes, I've been doing that for some time and I really find it cleans up
my code, however you should note that class names are usually space
separated. At least in CSS the class green tomatoes will get the
styles of green and tomatoes, so by making your javascript aware of
this you can hav multiple classes on you div's which makes life a bit
simpler.

I'm too lazy to use any of javascript's OOP so I just use:

function hasClass(node,className){
if(node.className){
classes=node.className.split( );
for(i=0;iclasses.length;i++){
if(classes[i]==className){return true;}}}
return false;
}

function addClass(node,className){
if(!hasClass(node,className)){
classes=node.className.split( );
classes[classes.length]=className;
node.className=classes.join( );}
}

function rmClass(node,className){
classes=node.className.split( );
var newclasses = new Array();
var k=0;
for(i=0;iclasses.length;i++){
if((classes[i]!=className)  (classes[i]!= )){
newclasses[k]=classes[i];
k++;}
}
node.className=newclasses.join( );
}

Not terribly optimized, but it works.

Stuart Sherwood wrote:
 Hi All. I hope someone can help me with my problem but it isn't exactly
 on topic so replies off list are encouraged.
 
 The markup below is far from semantic but necessary for floating
 elements and alignment. It will come out of a publishing system and may
 repeat any number of times. For each category, the list of topics must
 be hidden until clicked.
 
 
 div class=categorya class=activate/a/div !-- Toggle Show
 Hide for this category --
 div class=topiclist!-- Show Hide This --
div class=topic/div
div class=topic/div
 /div
 
 div class=categorya class=activate/a/div !-- Toggle Show
 Hide for this category --
 div class=topiclist!-- Show Hide This --
div class=topic/div
div class=topic/div
 /div
 
 div class=categorya class=activate/a/div !-- Toggle Show
 Hide for this category --
 div class=topiclist!-- Show Hide This --
div class=topic/div
div class=topic/div
 /div
 
 I have this code from the following thread:
 http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum91/1729.htm
 
 !--
 //Create an array
 var allPageTags = new Array();
 
 function doSomethingWithClasses(topiclist) {
 //Populate the array with all the page tags
 var allPageTags=document.getElementsByTagName(*);
 //Cycle through the tags using a for loop
 for (i=0; iallPageTags.length; i++) {
 //Pick out the tags with our class name
 if (allPageTags[i].className==topiclist) {
 //Manipulate this in whatever way you want
 allPageTags[i].style.display='none';
 }
 }
 }
 --
 
 But there are problems with above javascript that I don't understand
 1. The loop counter, i, should be a local var (a little more efficient).
 
 2. Some versions of IE5 accept getElementsByTagName but return null when
 given the '*' argument. A quick check - and switch to the all collection
 if needed would make it disaster proof.
 
 
 Suggestions
 Is it possible to pick out all elements with class=activate and then
 make the function apply to the instance of class=topiclist that
 immediatly follows it?
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Re: [WSG] Web font families

2005-09-14 Thread Alan Trick
Paul Bennett wrote:
And Times New Roman is the default font by browsers, if I remember correctly? 
At least 
IE's default font.
 
 
 I may be wrong (it happened once before ;) ) but I would think that the 
 browser would use the default SYSTEM serif font. Seeing as this (for Windows) 
 is Times New Roman, that's what you'll see on Windows machines...
 
 Welcoming feedback from those more 'in the know'
 
 Paul

IIRC, you are correct. Although this by many different things. Mainly -
the theme that you are using. If someone installs a different theme,
that may change the default font.

In linux we the same sort of system, except that what is the default
font is less common because of the gtk and qt, and the fact that things
are vey easy to theme. For example in my gtk theme in linux it defaults
to some sans serif font (bitstream vera sans, I think). Then there's the
Macs which are a whole 'nother ball game.

At any rate, the most important thing is that you can't rely on
anything. There is no way to reliably tell the fonts on your users
machines or seamlessly let them download fonts you want them to use,
because the people who are in charge of this sort of thing are too
greedy to be able work together and create a standard (and the w3
couldn't care less about presentation).

Another really annoying thing is that the fonts are not very consistant
in there sizing. So sometimes I stuble on sites that have really large
or unreadably small font's because of this.

So the story is that you can't expect pixel perfection. HTML and CSS
were not designed for that, if you need that sort of thing I think the
PNG format would be good for you ;)
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Re: [WSG] CSS 3 color module and deprecation of system colors

2005-09-06 Thread Alan Trick
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
 Apologies for cross posting, but: could anybody shed some light as to
 why system colors have been deprecated in the CSS 3 color module?

This is a bit OT, and correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't system
colors be a big security threat as far a phishing and spoofing, and
getting a client to thing your actually part of the browser when your not?

Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] IE7 b1 :/

2005-07-29 Thread Alan Trick

Jan Brasna wrote:
OK, beta 1 pretty bad in the field of standards, only PNG partially 
fixed and peekaboo and guillotine bugs removed. Otherwise IE6-like. See 
http://kurafire.net/log/archive/2005/07/28/ie7-beta-1-release




Yes, they fixed 2 bugs, and now it's a new version. That puts firefox at 
what, version 6,000 or so last time I checked bugzilla ;).


I think IE 7 will be a bit of a disapointment to the web developer 
crowd. On the other hand it means that we won't have to deal with a 
whole buch of new ones that they would have inevitably produced. Till 
then we can always you Dean Edwards IE 7, a much more advanced one if 
you ask me.

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Re: [WSG] base css

2005-07-05 Thread Alan Trick
Webmaster wrote:
If I know the base font I'll set that and some default
colours, then set a % text size in the body {}, to avoid
any font-size setting smaller than 1em.
 
 
 Hi Heretic, please explain this. How does setting a % for text-size in body
 prevent the appearance of smaller than 1em font sizes? Is 100% a good
 starting point for body? Enquiring minds want to know.
 

I belive not having a % value on your top element ( html for XHTML and
body for HTML ) really screws up font-scaling in IE.

Alan Trick
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[WSG] paragraph indent

2005-07-03 Thread Alan Trick
I wanted to get my paragraphs to indent on a site so I tried the most
intuitive thing:

p:first-line{padding:1em}

It did nothing. I tested a couple other things to make sure I was doing
the right thing, but it appears that I can only change the font values.

Then I tried this:

p:before{float:left;width:1em;height:1em;}

didn't work either. I toyed around with it a bit and it looks like
float:left doesn't work on :before stuff.

So finally I tried this:

p:before{content:'mmm';visibility:hidden;}

and it works as expected. This is something of a hack, but as far as I
know, it should work on all CSS2 browsers. Any better suggestions on how
to do this?

Alan Trick

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Re: [WSG] Will HTML be nicer to PHP than XHTML?

2005-07-01 Thread Alan Trick
Personally, I believe this is one of the strong argumens for XHTML. PHP
is very sloppy, and when you combine that with another sloppy language,
HTML, the mess is tremendos. For small projects and new people it's not
much of an issue, but try to maintain a large codebase without it being
incredibly buggy.

Using XHTML forces you towards good practices, something that is good to
do from the begining before you develop those bad habits. I don't know
who was objecting to using XHTML, but IMHO it will interfere with you
learning of PHP less than HTML because it will force you to know what
your doing, which is the point of learning.

XHTML is a beautiful thing. I use it every day with my PHP applications.
I just can't wait till SVG gets some support.

Alan Trick

Roberto Gorjão wrote:


 Anyway, I noticed that many of you use XHTML and I sure was beginning to
 enjoy using it myself, and it seemed to me a good way to practice for
 the inevitable future… is it? I mean: a good way to practice, as I
 believe that XML is the inevitable future… I’m initiating now my study
 on PHP and MySQL and I read some objections about using XHTML with PHP…
 Will XHTML interfere with my learning of PHP? Would it be a good idea to
 stick with good old plain HTML?
 
 Obrigado!
 Roberto
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[WSG] IE and linux

2005-06-30 Thread Alan Trick
Hi,
My computer had windows and linux on it, but like to do most of my work
in linux. This is a bit of a problem when it comes to making my css work
for the browser we all know and hate, IE. Lately I've been doing
everying in linux and then copying it over to Windows (cause windows
can't read linux drives) and making a custom css file for IE. However,
this is quite a pain, esspecially if I get a good idea while doing this
and want to change something else then I have 2 versions to worry about.

I tried googling it but I didn't get any luck. Does anyone here know if
it's possible using WINE or something? Are there and HOWTO's around?

Thanks,
Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] small and big : accessibility usage?

2005-06-15 Thread Alan Trick
Acording to the WHAT-WG the small element does have semantic meaning.
I don't have the link though. They basically said that it was good for
things like 'small print' and such cases. I think small is an unusal
case here and is meanigful and useful.

Alan Trick

Matt Thommes wrote:
 Is there any reason at all to ever use small, and big?
 
 I know they are visual elements, but I thought I heard somewhere
 that small represents a tonal adjustment, for screen readers - such
 as *lowering* the tone of voice.
 
 em and strong provide levels of emphasis - but is there an
 opposite to that? The other end of the spectrum, I mean?
 
 
 MATTHOM
 matthom.com/
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Re: [WSG] site check w3planet.info

2005-06-15 Thread Alan Trick
Nice site, 2 notes though.

You may want to add a:focus{color:white}, several of the links go
*completely* blue if you focus on them, a problem if your using tab a lot.

Also, there's a little problem in firefox on page to. I looks like a
float bug. It's probably firefox's fault but just letting you know.

Good luck promoting standards.

Alan Trick  

Jad Madi wrote:
 Hi
 I have made some changes to W3 planet, would you please check it
 http://www.w3planet.info/site/
 and give me your feedback
 
 Regards
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Re: [WSG] DOM tutorials/books?

2005-06-14 Thread Alan Trick
There's these also, I can never spend too long w/o them:

http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Core-20001113/

Alan Trick


Nick Elliott wrote:
 Hi
 
 Following up on a thread from a month back, this book is now finally out.
 
 DHTML Utopia Modern Web Design Using JavaScript  DOM by Stuart Langridge
 
 http://www.sitepoint.com/books/dhtml1/
 
 Haven't had time to read it yet, although there are four free chapters (135 
 pages) available for download from Sitepoint's website if anyone is 
 interested.
 
 Author comes from Melbourne, but I don't think he's a member of the WSG!
 
 Cheers
 
 Nick
 Cheltenham, UK
 
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Re: [WSG] A software question

2005-06-09 Thread Alan Trick
I don't think there's a really good answer to this question. It really
boils down to using what ever your comfortable with and will let you get
the job done.  Personally, I use plain text editors with syntax
highlighting and I hate Dreamweaver (i've used 2002), but others feel
differently and prefer drag-and-drop stuff. If you like Dreamweaver, but
you can't afford the money, you can always try Nvu
(http://www.nvu.com/), apparently it has fairly good standards support.


Kvnmcwebn wrote:

cant go wrong with dreamweaver mx 2004.
great style sheet integration.
pc version ships with top style lite and home site i think.
costs around 500 hundred quid.
-kvnmcwebn

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Re: [WSG] WSG Meetings for the rest of us

2005-06-09 Thread Alan Trick
Yes, this would be great. I live in Canada, and being a student and all,
I don't have the time, nor the money to visit Australia. If some one
could release audio tapes or something, it'd be much appreciated. :)

Alan Trick

Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote:

 Man, oh man, would I love to attend some (pretty much all) of the
 meetings, seminars and discussions being hosted/held by WSG - but they
 seem to all be in Sydney.
  
 I live in the backwaters of the Philippines and am too broke to travel
 to these meetings and I really feel like I'm missing out on a lot of
 good stuff - not to mention networking and getting to know other
 professionals in my field.
  
 Aside from the networking/getting to know issue, is there anyway that
 the rest of us can read abstracts or important details from these
 meetings - like maybe on the WSG site?
  
 Once again, if I had the cash and ability to travel, I'd be one of the
 first people in line to pay the price of admission.
  
 Since this isn't the case for me - and I'm sure many other WSG
 members, is there any way or plan to share this wealth of
 information and expertise with the rest of us?
  
 Cole 


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Re: [WSG] absolute positioning, objects inputs

2005-06-09 Thread Alan Trick
The select issue is an IE bug. As far as I know, there's no workaround.
With the flash, I believe you have to set a property on your embed tag
(wMode='opaque', but don't quote me on that). I'm not very familiar with
Flash.

Alan Trick

Jamie Mason wrote:

 http://www.engineerrecords.com/abspos.htm

 This page is a quick example, it's got form inputs and a flash file
 with nothing done to them, then OVER THE TOP of that, is a blue
 absolutely positioned div.

 In IE - The select appears above the div
 In Mozilla - The flash appears above the div

 Does anyone know a decent way around this?


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Re: [WSG] VIRUS!!!

2005-06-07 Thread Alan Trick
Tim John wrote:

Hi,
Luckily, I thought it a little strange to receive an email from WSG
informing me that I'd been removed from their mailing list. Especially as
the email was from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and contained a download -
which I ignored! I'm just wondering, as I use MailWasher Pro, I could
bounce said email but would not then receive any pottentially legit emails
from [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any ideas?
  

Two things, Either

1) the mail server was compromised, or

2) (far more likely) the email was spoofed. I don't have a copy of it,
so I can't check myself, but can you see what the email has for IP
addresses?

Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] alt tags and image captions

2005-06-06 Thread Alan Trick
Andreas Boehmer wrote:

 ...


Yeah, they will repeat it. If I remember correctly they will read something
like Image Joe Smith, Joe Smith.
  

 ...


Yeah, I've used links on linux a bit lately (while waiting for stuff to
compile) and this is probably one of the most common anoyance. Usually
it looks something like: Joe SmithJoe Smith. There are a lot of images
on the web that would be better of with an empty string for their alt
attributes.

Also remember that images are regularly inline content. People often
style it as display:block, which is fine, but remember to put spaces
between images unless their is good reason not to otherwise the following:

img src='hello.png' alt=Hello/img src='world.png' alt=World/

will look like

HelloWorld

Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] Ten questions for Russ

2005-06-06 Thread Alan Trick
Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:

Russ wrote:
[quote]
At the risk of being burned at the stake, I think that unless you are willing 
to serve your pages as application/xhtml+xml with content negotiation, then 
you are probably better off staying with HTML 4.01 at this time.
[/quote]

Let me be the first to gather the kindling :-) 

The whole MIME debate started with Ian Hickson. Let me summarize his argument: 
If you author bad XHTML and serve it up as HTML, you won't know that you have 
invalid XHTML and you will blame XHTML when you find out. Sorry, this is not a 
valid argument. This is fear mongering.
  

That might not be a valid argument but that was not Ian's argument (if I
remember it properly). Here's what I think he was saying

1) the whole point of XHTML, is that it is xml and that it requires
well-formedness
2) if you do not server application/xhtml-xml you don't gain that an you
may as well be using HTML 4.01
3) additionally, sending XHTML with an HTML mime type is against
standards, just as much as having a  instead of amp;
4) because it is against standards, you can't expect standard behaviour
from browsers. In reality they should all be putting a  after your
br/'s and input/'s and such (but only a one or two browsers actually
implement that). I know the PHP DOM parser screws up when you give it a
text/html file with an xhtml namespace.

For all intensive purposes, you file will just be an oddly written html
file with an incorrect namespace and incorrect dtd. The only time I find
this is useful is when your sending content to a UA that does not
support application/xhtml-xml and you don't want to rewrite your
document for that.

Alan Trick
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[WSG] killing the object tag

2005-04-25 Thread Alan Trick
XHTML 2 is going to get rid of the img tag, which I think is good. 
object is a far better tag mainly because of it's fallback options, 
but the problem with object is that is has a very messed up history and 
as a result, it's practically impossible to use it for anything useful 
as long as your clients are using IE.

IE doesn't support object type='image/png' and if you try to do 
something like object type='image/jpg' it inserts nasty scroll bars. 
object is also associated with ActiveX so if you have security levels 
above normal, IE will issue a security warning even if your just trying 
to display a poor little png.

So here is my suggestion: Let's change object to obj for XHTML 2.
1. Standards-compliant browsers can support it very easily because they 
already have support of object, they can just transfer it.

2. On older versions of IE (or any browser), it will just go to the 
fallback solution, which is good because object wasn't ever any good 
in IE anyways. I'm assuming people with other browsers can easily update it.

3. IE will have to redo there object support at some point anyways. 
This will will allow them to do that without breaking bugwards 
compatibility. Something they are ever so committed to.

4. It's 4 characters shorter.
5. not as important, but can we change 'data' to 'src'. data is 
confusing because it isn't consistent with the other elements.

What do you guys think of this? Is their somewhere I can submit this too?
Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] killing the object tag

2005-04-25 Thread Alan Trick
Thanks for the link Richard. I just looked one the www-html mailing list 
and there was an argument about this in 2003, but it kind of died in the 
middle without any resolution.

I guess the biggest reason would be because I don't like to type a lot 
of extra code for no reason. esspecially with tags that aren't used very 
often. It increases the length of my code (making it more work to read) 
and leads to more spelling mistakes.

When (if)? IE supports HTML it may still want to be able to support it's 
old buggy object.  Just look at all their CSS bugs they have in the 
name of 'backwards-compatibily' and 'consistancy'.

Alan
BTW, Xsmiles: http://www.x-smiles.org/ has preliminary support for XHTML2
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
XHTML 2 is not meant to be backwards compatible. As IE doesn't 
officially support XHTML 2 at all (as, to my knowledge, no browser does 
natively), this discussion is irrelevant, IMHO. XHTML 2 should not be 
sent to anything other than user agents which (will eventually) support it.

Any similarities between XHTML 2 and XHTML 1.x are purely coincidental, 
if you will.
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Re: [WSG] can you hack the alt tag open?

2005-04-22 Thread Alan Trick
I believe that is what object is for.  If IE didn't screw it up so 
royaly with it's activeX it would be a considerably better option than 
the img.  With an object tag, this

object src='place' type='thisisnotsupported'
  object src='place' type='thismightbesupported'
pThis is some alternate text for browsers that do not support 
'thisisnotsupported' or 'thismightbesupported'. If a browser supports 
'thisisnotsupported' it will display that, otherwise it will fall back 
to 'thismightbesupported', and if it doesn't support that, it will fall 
back to this text.  You can also put emcool/em markup in here./p

  pA question to the guru's out there.  If I put a script tage in 
here, will a browser that supports one of the above objects still 
execute the script?/p

  /object
/object
-Alan
Paul Dwyer wrote:
Sorry for the cross posting.
Is it possible to serve up the textual contents of an alt tag, outside 
of the tag? In other words, can I make the stuff inside the alt tag as 
important as the document contents?

I'm not exactly sure what I am asking here... I don't have the vocabulary.
I want Googlebots to *really* see my alt tags and give them as much 
weight as the regular content of my website.

::pd::
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Re: [WSG] FYI New WSG jobs section

2005-04-19 Thread Alan Trick
One question I wheather or not out-of-country people are allowed to 
apply for these jobs.  Max Design is pretty upfront about Australia 
only, but I'm not sure about the other one.  Being from Canada I would 
like to see something around here that wasn't Australia only.

Why do all the good web designers have to be from Aussie Land? :P
-Alan Trick
Neerav wrote:
Moderators
I take it that the appearance of 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/jobs.cfm means that list members 
can post webstandards postions they know about there?

Would this extend to the reverse eg: allowing people who are available 
for contracts/jobs to list themselves?

Or do people looking for work have to stick to more subtle methods like 
Lea de Groot's signature

Lea
~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane.  Got anything?

which prompted me to do the same thing :-)
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Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Alan Trick
In writing (like not-web writing) there is a thing were quotes that are 
just are just a few lines are written in the normal flow of the text; 
however, if a quote is more than 3-4 lines it is separate and indented 
(about .5' on each side, but it depends on whose rules you use).

Anyways that is what blockquote was meant to refer to.  I your situation 
I would use

div id='sidebar'
  blockquote
pI am seldom attracted to books of this genre.p
pThis author was recommended by a friend, and I couldn't put it 
down!/p
  /blockquote
  cite
 Cole Kuryakinbr
San Francisco
  /cite
/div

The only issue with the blockquote is that it can't contain plain text, 
it has to be in a p or something, but if you don't like the extra 
margin the p gives, you can just do

blockquote p{margin:0}
in the css
Alan
Lea de Groot wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:40:53 +0800, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote:
So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags?

Blockquote, I beleive - you're correct in that q is meant for inline
eg
psome text qwhat he said/q more text./p
I normally start my css file with
* {
  margin: 0;
  padding: 0;
}
anyway which would already have stripped the blockquote indenting :)
Lea
~ looking for a perm. position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV.
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[WSG] is an empty href value valid

2005-04-19 Thread Alan Trick
If I want a link that points to whatever page i am alread at (without 
any querystrings I can use a href='' (for example, I'm at 
index.php?start=10 and I want to go to index.php)

Is this allowed?
Alan
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Re: [WSG] IE problem

2005-04-11 Thread Alan Trick
Ah yes, those problems.  IE is quite bugy when it comes to floats.  Try 
putting |display:inline| on everything that is floated.
http://positioniseverything.net/explorer/doubled-margin.html

Alan Trick
Javier wrote:
Hi
I'm developing a site for a friend of mine and have some rare problems.
What I did work well in Firefox, but when my friend saw it with his IE6 it
was horrible !!!  :(
I used the classic two columns inside a container. Left column float to
left and the other to right side. IE 6, ignores the width size of left side
and show it bigger than expected then right side goes down. Also, right
side right margin is bigger than in Firefox.
I've seen hacks over the net and used one to define sizes in IE...but this
problem is driving me crazy...
You can see a page test in:
http://home.leyba.com.ar/test/
I've defined borders in left and right columns to allow to see the
problem...
Any help or clue will be appreciated...
Thanks in advance
Javier
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[WSG] more on flashish stuff: SVG

2005-04-11 Thread Alan Trick
Hi, I'll sort of try this again, and hope the gods don't mail-bomb us :P.
SVG isn't quite flash, because it's not proprietary technology, but it's 
not terribly accesible either, because as far as I know, mozzilla is the 
only browser to have any built-in support for it (adobe has an svg 
plugin for IE). I guess one of the biggest differences here is that SVG 
has a future, where as flash is bound to the world of proprietary formats.
Has anyone here actually done any development with SVG?

Alan Trick
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[WSG] more float problems

2005-04-11 Thread Alan Trick




Hi,
Normally IE seems to ignore the proper rules of floats and expand boxes
to fit them. Using this and overflow:auto for the other
browsers that do the rules properly, is usually a fairly simple
solution to the overlapping float problem. However, I've have a page
that uses overflow:auto, and for some odd reason, IE is
making floats overlap, causing all sorts of havoc.

Here's a page: http://jellybean.uni.cc/contact.php (it looks right in
firefox, wrong in IE, I haven't tested w/ a mac)

Its the input buttons that are floated and overlapping causing the .sectionfooter
to shove over.

Any suggestions/help on what is causeing this?

Alan Trick






Re: [WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's

2005-04-08 Thread Alan Trick




Ah, yes. Gecko does the same thing once it's given xhtml. only it's a
bit more picky. You have to use the xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
if your going to get any styling action.
Alan Trick

Kornel Lesinski wrote:
On
Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:41:16 +0100, Alan Trick
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
  I'm just curious if any popular browser would
display this page properly

http://www.tarunz.org/~vassilii/html-is-an-sgml-dtd.html

I though Moz would, but it disapointed me.

  
  
Opera does, but only for XML (i.e. application/xhtml+xml).
  
  
I've saved it as .xml, tided it to be well-formed and got:
  
"Your browser (Opera/8.0 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en)) rules! Drop me a
line..."
  





[WSG] flash and accessabilty

2005-04-08 Thread Alan Trick
I've heard a few people on the web using those two words in the same 
sentance (and it wasnt in a negative way =-O ).

I'm wondering if people here know who much of that is truth and how much 
is just an excuse to make flash developers fell good about themselves. 
Personally, I don't think it'll be much good till it stops disableing 
regular browser functionality, like right clicks, mouse guestures, and 
middle clicking, and status bar text for links.  But is it worth looking 
into for more than just flash videos/games and sIFR?

Alan Trick.
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Re: [WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's

2005-04-08 Thread Alan Trick




As far as I know, no User Agent (besides the W3C validator) repects the
content-type header. It's a bit of a pain.

Sans headers (like if your opening a local file) Firefox (and
I'm gruessing the whole Gecko family) will treat a file as application/xhtml+xml if the extention is .xhtml, if it's
.xml it will call it text/xml, but the rendering effect will be the
same.

With websites it's a bit tricky. The problem is that some of the
legacy browsers (at least IE) go all funny when you send them
application/xml+xtml. Ideally you can use something like PHP and check
the "HTTP_ACCEPT" header like this.
Otherwise IE tries to save your pages instead of view them.

Alan Trick

Townson, Chris wrote:

  
  
  
  In both Mozilla
and Opera, I found that what was crucial was that the server (Apache,
in this instance) was configured to deliver the file as
application/xhtml+xml (+ being well formed, of course). Merely setting
this in the document head was not sufficient. Thus, tidying up the code
and adding "AddType application/xhtml+xml .xhtml" to httpd.conf got
everything running smoothly.





[WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's

2005-04-07 Thread Alan Trick
I'm just curious if any popular browser would display this page properly
http://www.tarunz.org/~vassilii/html-is-an-sgml-dtd.html
I though Moz would, but it disapointed me.
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Re: [WSG] how to use external fonts with css?

2005-04-07 Thread Alan Trick
Hi,
From what I can tell, there's no reall way embed fonts, apart from 
image or flash replacement.  All we have is the Microsoft propriety-ware 
and something that was released by Bitstream but abandoned because 
Bitstream would not open-source it.  Too bad.
Alan Trick

tomcask o_o wrote:
I will wish to use external fonts (noncommon to pcs, obtained through 
server by the pagina Web) for my designs with css, somebody knows like 
doing it?

Thanks.

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Re: [WSG] Access Key question

2005-04-07 Thread Alan Trick
If your not one of those 'javascript-is-evil' people you could use 
something like

window.onkeypress=access;
function access(event){
   if(event.keyCode='[insert character here]'){
  code to execute here;}
   elseif(event.keyCode='[insert character here]'){
  ...etc...
}
I don't know how well this would work for screenreaders and such, but it 
works for all the common browsers.
Alan Trick

tee wrote:
I'd read a  couple of blogs regarding the access keys, although opinion are
spitted, I decided to implement access keys on my sites.
While fixing my sites in different languages, I realized I cannot use the
same access keys for both, say Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese,
and here a disturbing question emerges. We can only use 26 alphabet + 0 to 9
digit right? In this case there are only 36 access keys we can use. How can
one solves this dilemma if a site involve with more than 36 pages?
tee
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Re: [WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's

2005-04-07 Thread Alan Trick
Tom Livingston wrote:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:41:16 -0400, Alan Trick 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:

I'm just curious if any popular browser would display this page properly
http://www.tarunz.org/~vassilii/html-is-an-sgml-dtd.html
I though Moz would, but it disapointed me.
**

Opera 7.54u2 Mac does. I think. What should I see?
you should not see: |But; your; fine; browser; does; n0t; care;| 
or the |]| at the top
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Re: [WSG] Site review

2005-04-07 Thread Alan Trick
Neerav wrote:
Looks nice, wish I could afford it :-)
The only 2 small problems I see are caused by the standard text size 
being too small, so I choose medium size text (in Firefox 1.0 Win 
2000 1024x768) and:

1. Making your African Dreams a Reality! is overlapped by Lodges  
Hotels

2. Terms  Conditions and Office Information overlap each other
Interesting.  I'm viewing it in firefox 1.0.2 XP with the same 
resolution, but there's no overlapping?  Mabye it's been fixed already
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Re: [WSG] Son of Suckerfish and IE 6 (SP2)

2005-04-05 Thread Alan Trick
Yes, I've encountered that as well.  I think It's interesting that it 
blocks javascript on your own computer, but will gleefully accept it 
(and activeX objects and whatnot) from the internet (because we all know 
who how safe the internet is).  I guess it's just one of those 
'undocumented features'.

Jan Brasna wrote:
I notice that IE6 with service pack 2 installed
initially blocks the JavaScript that makes the li hover sections drop
It's only when browsing local files.
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[WSG] css expresions? todo : not todo

2005-04-05 Thread Alan Trick
What do you guys think of useing css expressions to mimic 
standards-compliant behavior. (hidden, of course, from the good browsers)
One useful example I found would be something like this:  
http://blogs.clearscreen.com/migs/archive/2004/12/23/676.aspx
Would using them allot cause the browser to slow down?
-Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] css expresions? todo : not todo

2005-04-05 Thread Alan Trick




David Laakso wrote:

  One useful example I found would be something
like this:
http://blogs.clearscreen.com/migs/archive/2004/12/23/676.aspx

  
(could not locate remote server)
  

Funny, it works well for me? Anyways, it's just a nice article on wo
to make use of css selectors in IE.

for example: input{color:_expression_(this.type=="button"?'red':'black');}
for input[type="button"]{color:
red;}.

Alan Trick





Re: [WSG] ID conflicts

2005-04-05 Thread Alan Trick
tee wrote:
Yes Sir!
And thanks million for the fix. Came up a quick copy and paste test page. It
works beautifully. Will study  your code thoroughly lately tonight to make
sure I understand everything.
http://www.lotusseeds.com/tryagain_michael.html
Looks nice,
Maybe you've already thought of this, but the list is useless without 
css support. I'd suggest putting spanlist item name/span in the list 
items and then do something like

|li a span {display:none}|
Good Luck
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Re: [WSG] Suckerfish Sliding Doors Image Replacement with Current Page .. Navigation

2005-04-04 Thread Alan Trick
Sorry, I don't have a Mac, so I can't help you in that department, but I 
tested it in my versions of Firefox (1.0.2  nightly) and the menus go 
down, but they won't go up again (at least I couldn't figure out how to 
do it).
Alan Trick

Richard Czeiger wrote:
Let's combine a whole bunch of different CSS concepts and hope it 
works in everything.   :o)
 
Check out this link:
http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/test.html
 
Here's the CSS:
http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/styles/style.css
 
On the navigation:
 
1. The suckerfish drop down on services in the menu works.
2. Replaced all the text links with sliding doors background images.
3. Because we're on the Client page, this has it's roll-over state on.
 
All this works PERFECTLY on PC FireFox, PC IE 5.0 and PC IE 6.0.
Mac Safari? The nav doesn't work at all
Can't even click on the buttons.
 
Can anyone PLEASE help me?
I don't have OSX 10.2 so I can't test on Safari.
 
Anything to get me out of this hole would be greately appreciated!.
 
Cheers  :o)
Richard

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[WSG] position:absolute in IE

2005-04-04 Thread Alan Trick
Disclamer: this was /not/ my idea, the companies graphic designer make 
me do it :-P

The graphics designer at my company has a thing against pages that are 
larger/smaller than the viewport.  As much as I fell this is total 
nonsense I've tried to comply with her wishes.  As always IE is giving 
me hell and I was wondering if anyone has any resorces on how to make 
absolute positioning work properly in IE.

The design is at http://cgemery.com/new/
Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] position:absolute in IE

2005-04-04 Thread Alan Trick
That's what I had, but AFAIK, you can't have the page resize to fit the 
viewport without absolute/fixed positioning (unless you use a screwy js 
hack).  If you could prove me wrong I would be very greatful. Personally 
I dislike absolute positioning.

Alan
David Laakso wrote:
On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:33:53 -0400, Alan Trick 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:

Disclamer: this was /not/ my idea, the companies graphic designer 
make  me do it :-P

The graphics designer at my company has a thing against pages that 
are  larger/smaller than the viewport.  As much as I fell this is 
total  nonsense I've tried to comply with her wishes.  As always IE 
is giving  me hell and I was wondering if anyone has any resorces on 
how to make  absolute positioning work properly in IE.

The design is at http://cgemery.com/new/
Looks like a simple fluid width 2-col layout with a header, horizontal 
nav  bar, and fixed width right column would do it for most concerned 
browsers.

Alan Trick
Best,
David
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[WSG] stemming autoreplies

2005-04-04 Thread Alan Trick




I know this is offtopic in this list but I don't know where it is on
topic, I'd be happy if anyone pointed out where I should send this.

I'm wondeing if the people who maintain the mailing list could stop
forwarding emails with 'AUTOREPLY','OUT OF OFFICE',
and 'MESSAGE NOT DELIVERED' in the subject. I think it
would do a good amount to stem the amount of inavertent spam.

Thanks,
Alan Trick




[WSG] stemming autoreplies

2005-04-04 Thread Alan Trick




I know this is offtopic in this list but I don't know where it is on
topic, I'd be happy if anyone pointed out where I should send this.

I'm wondeing if the people who maintain the mailing list could stop
forwarding emails with 'AUTOREPLY','OUT OF OFFICE',
and 'MESSAGE NOT DELIVERED' in the subject. I think it
would do a good amount to stem the amount of inavertent spam.

Thanks,
Alan Trick




Re: [WSG] textarea rows cols - presentation in xhtml?

2005-04-04 Thread Alan Trick




I've wondered about this one as well, my guess is that
1. they figured the attributes were to important to drop in
the event of non-css user agents,

or more likely
2. they didn't change it because xhtml1.x was really not
much more than a reformulation of html into xml. To get real xhtml we
will have to wait for xhtml2, xforms and all that good stuff. (there
are no cols or rows in xforms). This was done in
order to maintain backwards compatibility, something xhtml2 will break.

Not a great answer, but that's all I can come up with.

Alan

Paul Novitski wrote:
Why
is it that rows and cols are required attributes for the textarea
element, even in xhtml? They strike me as being purely presentational,
and not really needed: in the absense of styling, browsers could apply
arbitrary defaults as they do with text input field width. I can't
find any reference to this oddity on the w3c site or elsewhere. Any
suggestions?
  
  
Paul





Re: [WSG] Multiple classes applied to one element

2005-04-01 Thread Alan Trick
This is certainly valid code and as far as I know, it is accepted across 
modern browsers.  I've used it quite a lot and have never had any 
trouble with it. I find it quite useful.
Alan Trick

Stevio wrote:
From what I understand, if you want to apply multiple classes to the one 
element, you do the following:
p class=class1 class2
Is this proper valid code  accepted in modern browsers or is there 
anything I should know to concern me with about using it?

Thanks,
Stephen

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Re: [WSG] Extra hidden content

2005-04-01 Thread Alan Trick




Yes, although I'll had that their are certain times when you do want
this to happen. I've used this for menus, blocking spiders from
emails, and a few other features. Of course as Patrick said, they do
need to make sense when stylesheets are disabled.
I don't think having two headers is an appropriate use for this. Using
print css's only have to take away from what's normally on the page.

Alan Trick

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Stevio
wrote:
  
  How do you handle the situation of hidden
elements becoming displayed when the normal stylesheet is not used? Is
this a problem that concerns you?

  
Pages should make sense when stylesheets are disabled (for users of
screenreaders, text-only browsers, users with css disabled, search
engine spiders, etc)...so I'd advise against the above mentioned
practice.
  
  
IMHO, of course.
  





Re: [WSG] list bullet question

2005-03-31 Thread Alan Trick




Hi,
There are several advatages to using list-style-image

  you can click on the image to select the list item
  it's slightly simpler
  you can still have another background-image on the element

IMHO, the bullet as background image is still better though because of
buggy css support.

Alan Trick

  Hi Ted,
All personal opinion, but the bullet as background image has a lot of
advantages:

- You have far more control over the positioning of the bullet, as you can
set it in any position using a range of units (pixel, ems, percents. You can
even position the bullets under the list items if desired.
- As it is positioned exactly, it is also more cross-browser stable, at
least across the modern CS supporting browsers.

Russ
  
  
When creating custom bullets, I tend to use the background and padding
avenue. I know you can also assign an image as a bullet. My question is,
which is better?  Is one method more bullet-proof?
  





Re: [WSG] problem mixing stucture and content

2005-03-30 Thread Alan Trick
Yes, they would wrap (as in not whitespace:pre).  Using a line / 
element isn't ideal, but might be my only resort

In a perfect world that supported css2 properly would this work?
?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8?
poem xmlns=http://some.name.space;
  line id='1' /Class aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora torquent,
  line id='2' /per conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos.
/poem
and css:
poem{position:static; display:block; border:1px solid #000; 
counter-reset:poem_line}
line{position:static; display:block; counter-increment: poem_line; 
content: counter(poem_line) . ;}
q:before { content: open-quote }
q:after  { content: close-quote }

Ben Curtis wrote:

Consider the following lines of fake poetry:
   Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent,
   per conubia nostra per inceptos hymenaeos.
Now consider making a xml document out of it
...
   |?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8?
   poem xmlns=http://some.name.space;
   lineClass aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora torquent,/line
   lineper conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos./line
   /poem|
but it's not well formed, and neither or the alternatives

Allow me to pose this back to you:
The display for these data is 13 characters wide. Do your 
line.../line content wrap?

no = the fact that it is on one line is more important than being 
able to read it in its entirety (e.g., wrapping it would change the 
meaning, as in ASCII artwork)

yes = the content is more important than the display, and the end of 
line more important than the fact that it is a single line.

So, for your poetry example, I would encode it like so:
poem
stanza
Class aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora torquent,br/per 
conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos.
/stanza
/poem

br/ in this sense doesn't mean a line-break so much as it means 
end-of-line. If a quote did not terminate before the end of a stanza, 
then you self-close the quote; the next quote will be an open-quote at 
the beginning of the next stanza, anyway.

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[WSG] problem mixing stucture and content

2005-03-29 Thread Alan Trick
Consider the following lines of fake poetry:
   Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent,
   per conubia nostra per inceptos hymenaeos.
Now consider making a xml document out of it, where you had some 
elements for structure like |poem| and |line|; and some elements for 
content markup like |||q||| and others.
So how would you format it? (Assuming keeping the quote and lines are 
both need to be the appropriate elements and style is not important, yet)

   |?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8?
   poem xmlns=http://some.name.space;
   lineClass aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora torquent,/line
   lineper conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos./line
   /poem|
but it's not well formed, and neither or the alternatives are 
appropriate, both:

   |lineClass aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora
   torquent||,/q||/line
   line||q||per conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos./line
   |
and
   |lineClass aptent taciti sociosqu||/line||
   q||
   line||ad litora torquent,/line
   lineper conubia nostra||/line||
   /q
   ||line||per inceptos hymenaeos./line
   |
won't do because they don't properly convey the data and would be almost 
impossible to style appropriatly as well.  Of course in this situation 
you'd probably be better of ignoring the q's and just using quotation 
marks, but in my situation that's not really possible.  I /have /to 
include both the strucutral markup and the content, any suggestions?

Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] problem mixing stucture and content

2005-03-29 Thread Alan Trick
But the whole point of it is to have the data properly formated in an 
xml document so I can do fun stuff with xsl and stylesheets :).  Line 
breaks won't cut it.
Alan Trick

Rob Mientjes wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:26:47 -0500, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 

Consider the following lines of fake poetry:
   Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent,
   per conubia nostra per inceptos hymenaeos.
Now consider making a xml document out of it, where you had some
elements for structure like poem and line; and some elements for
content markup like q and others.
So how would you format it? (Assuming keeping the quote and lines are
both need to be the appropriate elements and style is not important, yet)
   

Fake the PRE element. It automatically tosses new lines on new lines,
unlike the usual element. Also, inline elements can go multi-line in
PRE.
 

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Re: [WSG] divs don't align

2005-03-29 Thread Alan Trick
here's the quickest fix:
on div#rhs h2, change
margin-left: 201px;
to
margin:0 0 0 201px;
It works on IE and Firefox/win, so it should work on Camino and probably 
Safari too.
Alan Trick

Tony Lim wrote:
I'm having trouble with http://www.outdoorinsights.com.au appears ok 
on IE on a pc but the left hand image is about 15px below on Safari 
and Camino. If I set the margin at -15px, it is ok on Safari  Camino 
but moves up on IE. Any clues?

Sampai berjumpa lagi
Tony Lim
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+61 2 44418668 ph
+61 2 44418898 fax
0411052746 mobile
P O Box 138
Huskisson
NSW 2540
Level 1 51 Owen St
Huskisson NSW
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[WSG] nesting in list

2005-03-21 Thread Alan Trick




Does anyone know what is allowed to be nested under a list (ul,ol,dl)
in XHTML? I read one resource, but all it said is that ul
and ol require 1 li, and dl
requires at least one dt, and one dl.
Alan Trick




Re: [WSG] To Specific

2005-03-17 Thread Alan Trick
Definitly,
There are a /lot /of things you find in th specs that are overlooked 
elsewhere. The DOM specs are about the only descent easy-to-download 
reference I've seen on DOM, I'd be lost without them.
Alan Trick

diona kidd wrote:
Chris,
I'm finding a great value in reading the w3c specs while working on a
current project. A few other resources are also helping me advance my
understanding of XHTML/CSS: the book 'The Zen of CSS Design',
alistapart.com and several other websites. Looking at work from other
developers and this list is also helping a lot. I often copy code posted
here into files and reverse-engineer it to see why something works
and/or what breaks it. 

The time spent is definately proving worthwhile. My code is becoming
even more logical and much cleaner than before. I take a lot less
shortcuts and usually end up replacing old shortcuts with newer, more
compliant ones. The specs are solidifying my understanding of what
'compliance' is...
Mind you, I haven't read them front to back. Just whatever applies at
the time or what interests me. 

Diona
On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 09:25 -0800, Chris Kennon wrote:
 

Hi,
Is there a value in reading the XHTML w3org specifications? What would 
be more productive in advancing understanding of XHTML/CSS?


CK
___
An ideal is merely the projection, on an enormously
enlarged scale, of some aspect of personality.
-- Aldus Huxley
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[WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?

2005-03-15 Thread Alan Trick
I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml 1.1. 
Does this  mean that it will eventually be obolete? If so, what do they 
expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always make sense 
to have everything in an external style sheet.
Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?

2005-03-15 Thread Alan Trick
I'm implementing some BBtag-like things on my webste though, and it 
semes to make more sense to have something like [red] create a span 
style='color:#f00'/span instead of a span class='red'/span and 
have a whole bunch of unnecesary styles, and if I want to allow 
something like [span style='color:#123'], that is quite difficult to do 
via classes and external/internal css.
The only other place I've used it is when I want to randomly generate a 
background-image or something, but that probably better doen with 
internal css
Alan Trick

Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
Hi Alan,
 

I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated
in xhtml 1.1. Does this  mean that it will eventually be
obolete?
 

It depends on what you mean by obolete. Deprecated means that it's part of the spec but the 
construct is outdated and its use is strongly discouraged. The next version of XHTML is 2.0 which won't get 
wide acceptance for 5 to 10 years. It's in Working Draft status. In it, the style is not flagged 
deprecated but that can change. Here is what the spec says:
Note: use of the style attribute is strongly discouraged in favor of the style 
element and external style sheets. In addition, content developers are advised 
to avoid use of the style attribute on content intended for use on small 
devices, since those devices may not support the use of in-line styles.
Source: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-styleAttribute.html
 

If so, what do they expect us to do for inline
styles because it doesn't always make sense 
to have everything in an external style sheet.
 

Can you provide some example of how you want to use inline formatting?
Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com
Alan Trick wrote:
 

I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml 1.1. 
Does this  mean that it will eventually be obolete? If so, what do they 
expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always make sense 
to have everything in an external style sheet.
Alan Trick
   

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[WSG] Quoting Code Snippets - whitespace and wordwrap

2005-03-14 Thread Alan Trick
In response to the earlier conversation:
Is it possible to put a css attributes on an elemtent that will respect 
spaces, but still wordwrap?  I tried copying the textarea css in 
forms.css onto a test div and viewing it in firefox to se if that would 
do it, but firefox controls it's textarea look some other way.
Alan Trick
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[WSG] problems with nodetype

2005-03-11 Thread Alan Trick
I was tying to use nodeType to make sure that a node was an element in 
my javascript, but it wasn't working.  Then when I did 
alert(aNode.nodeType); I got undefined, I was really confused so I tried 
alert(document.nodeType); and I got undefined again! Is there a reason 
I'm getting undefined instead of DOCUMENT_NODE or 9? I used 
if(aNode.tagName){ ...} to achive the required result, but it's a hack 
and I want to know what's wrong with nodeType?
Alan Trick
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