Re: [WSG] Site test?

2011-05-21 Thread Andrew Maben
Looks good on my Touch, except the blue on blue nav is a bit hard to  
read. The transtions look great!


Andrew

Sent from my iPod

On May 21, 2011, at 5:22 PM, Telford Computer Doctor i...@telfordpc.co.uk 
 wrote:



Good morning/afternoon/evening all,

First post here, so go easy ;-)

Just in the process of designing a website for a client, just  
wondering whether iPad, iPhone, mobile users could give me some  
feedback as to the jQuery used - whether it works basically.


http://www.telfordcomputerdoctor.co.uk/lt

Only the homepage is complete at the moment, as it is still in  
design stages.


Thanks in advance,
Mike @ Telford Computer Doctor


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

2010-01-31 Thread Andrew Maben

Please let this be the final word...

A

On Jan 31, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


On 01/02/2010 00:24, Jason Grant wrote:

@Thierry
Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in
'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end).


Even large corporations can be as misguided as you, Jason.


Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML?
Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in
'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running'
the HTML5 spec.


And they're also part of the effort for accessibility
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#acknowledgments

Whether they then follow the guidance they themselves have worked  
on is another matter, as with any large corporation. However, this  
does not give you a get-out-of-jail-free card.


Hey, http://www.google.co.uk still uses tables (!!!) for layout.  
Maybe I should stop using CSS altogether then, if they don't either?


I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why  
their

AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where
'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean:
time, money and skill, as outlined in my article.


For the last time: accessibility != making it work without  
JavaScript. It does mean that, with JavaScript, it's still  
accessible and usable (with keyboard, or screenreader, or screen  
magnifier, etc).


Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to  
continue

down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route?


Look, let's do it this way: let's agree to disagree. You can go off  
and feel that you've proven your point, while the rest of us can  
get on with actually understanding the implications of modern,  
standards-based, usable and accessible web development.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] vegetable page vallidation

2010-01-20 Thread Andrew Maben
Please stop further wasting everyone's time with useless comments.  
Thank you.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.



On Jan 20, 2010, at 12:14 PM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:



yes





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Re: [WSG] a tiny usability question on web form

2010-01-05 Thread Andrew Maben

I think this *is* a usability issue.

How vital is it to have states available as a pull-down, rather than  
a simple text field? If the pull-down is non-negotiable, my  
suggestion would be to move the country choice to the top of the  
address section: I think that might be a little less jarring than  
placing it in the middle.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.



On Jan 5, 2010, at 10:52 AM, tee wrote:





On Jan 5, 2010, at 7:19 AM, Elias Abunassar wrote:


Conduct research.

Sent from my iPhone


Please do not assume people don't do homework before they post :-)

I did conduct research before I posted my message.

Here are the problems:

1. I have difficulty to locate sites in different countries that  
the web forms have address. Google is not useful in this case.



2. web forms that have addresses and they are mostly eCommerce  
sites, and it seems they all use templates that come with the  
eCommerce system, and they are generic, more like tagsoup address  
and country field is placed at the last (exclude phone/fax fields).  
I checked over 30 sites from 10 countries, no exception.


tee



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Re: [WSG] [WSG Announce] Some links for light reading (22/12/09)

2009-12-23 Thread Andrew Maben
Yes, Russ - you're doing a great [and indispensable!] job. Keep the  
links coming, please.


Thanks, and Happy Holidays,

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.



On Dec 23, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote:

You didn't give up did you Russ??? There is always hope if we  
choose to

see it right?
Please keep sending your links and don't let the bad apples spoil  
the

whole bunch :)

Sincerely!

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Russ Weakley
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:55 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] [WSG Announce] Some links for light reading
(22/12/09)

...Ahhh... I give up... there is no hope.

Russ


On 22/12/2009, at 10:46 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:


Will HTML5 make the Web even more invalid?
http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/html5-make-web-more-invalid/


Can you provide any reason why you keep posting links to this site?
Yes the blog _seems_ to be about web standards, but the posts are  
just



speculation of poor quality and based on the lack of information,
misunderstanding and false assumptions.

Sure, the guy has financial interest of keeping xhtml afloat, so he
may see the HTML5 as a threat, but that's not a good enough reason to
spout nonsense.

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/




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Re: [WSG] How Important Is Web Accessibility?

2009-08-18 Thread Andrew Maben

Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm

How hard can that be?

On Aug 18, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Scott Andrews wrote:


Dont just auto mail me back. Actually delete me




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[WSG] IE7 scrollbar problem

2009-07-10 Thread Andrew Maben
I have spent a lot of time Googling this problem with no luck. I  
suspect it may be one of those things that are so obvious I just  
can't see. So I'm turning to the list for help.


The page in question is: http://spark.andrewmaben.com/index.php? 
page=information and the CSS is at http://spark.andrewmaben.com/ 
resources/sparks2.css (Specifically line 655 ff).


In IE7 (and I imagine other versions) when clicking on the Schools  
tab in the center panel, the school info appears with no scrollbar, a  
second click magically reveals both horizontal and vertical  
scrollbars, and clicking on another tab and then re-clicking  
Schools reveals a vertical scrollbar (the desired result). Works  
fine in Safari/Mac, Firefox/Mac/PC. HTML is valid 4.01 strict. There  
are CSS errors due to the use of some proprietary properties, but I  
don't think they are a factor.


The Schools panel has a table contained within a fixed height div  
with overflow:auto. The Other panel, with a paragraph with  
overflow:auto is fine in IE7.


I'd really appreciate any suggestions.

(And yes, I know - mea culpa, I fell back on a layout table to hold  
the Weather).


Thanks,


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.







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Re: [WSG] accessible free web hosting account

2009-06-25 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jun 25, 2009, at 11:45 PM, Craig Henneberry wrote:


then why should companies bother?


Um - because companies are composed of people, and because ethics  
should be an important component of people's lives? AKA Because it's  
the right thing to do.


Oh, and also because accessibility is mandated by law.

Andrew Maben

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.






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Re: [WSG] Browser toolbars

2009-05-04 Thread Andrew Maben

sigh!

I'll let others answer your main question. But as for the invisible  
URL, you might point out that this will make it all the easier for  
phishers to fake the site. And anyway, AFIK the URL will still be  
available in the browser's history.


BTW, has anyone come up with a bulletproof way to tell a client his  
stupid idea is stupid? Without losing the account?


Andrew

Sent from my iPod

On May 4, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Frogspoon frogspoo...@gmail.com wrote:


Good morning all,

I have a quick question regarding browser toolbars and  
functionality. I have a client who is requesting a web application  
(online form) be built where they will lose some if not all browser  
navigation control and functionality, much like you would see on a  
Internet banking page. I'm against the idea personally but wanted to  
find out if there are any such standards out there that strongly  
encourage you keep these on your web page for usability and  
accessibility reasons. Finally, they wanted to the URL to be hidden  
as well, surely this is not recommended??


I'd appreciate any help on these questions,

Cheers

Frog


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Re: [WSG] IE7 CSS fix

2009-04-02 Thread Andrew Maben

On Apr 2, 2009, at 9:49 PM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Sorry, but this Norwegian can't see the point in being stuck in the  
past

just because someone else thinks that's good enough.
Life's too short, and after having worked in front of these screens  
for

nearly thirty years I'm getting a bit bored and impatient.


+ 1 Georg

The only good enough is excellent.

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben

On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:

It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to  
action.


But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser  
functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what  
it is.


So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben
The argument continues to be shaky at best. ...compel a user... in  
particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the  
realities of the web as a medium.


I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is  
this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used  
feature? I would guess that the answer is no in both cases - but by  
all means prove me wrong!


Andrew

On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


As was mentioned, it's a call to action.  Those who are familiar
with marketing will understand this concept.  Also, it a user-friendly
way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without
jumping through the hoops the browsers require.

It's the same principle as putting Call us today at 918-878-8787 for
more info.  Instead of just putting 918-878-8787.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of David Dorward
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

designer wrote:

Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to  
favourites?

As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a
system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage.

In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two
reasons why you might want to have such a feature.

1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their  
browser has

built in.

... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't
know how to go back to them.

2. To cover up a Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to
your bookmarks, pretty please message with something resembling
something useful.

... which is just tacky.

Are there any other reasons?

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben

On Mar 25, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


When you have a boss, you do as the boss says, like it or not.
Or quit, or be fired.  Those are the options.


If you have not been hired for your expertise, yes. Otherwise you are  
honor-bound to present the arguments, not just blindly obey -  
naturally if the boss chooses to ignore you then you have to do as  
you are told. But if you are working for someone who insists on  
acting against his own interests you'll be out of a job soon enough  
anyway


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben
I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for this list, but on  
my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously  
our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important  
part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise  
to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes  
educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a new  
medium and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or  
counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on  
banner blindness, naive site owners often still want banner-like  
graphics.


In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to  
explain marketing to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years)  
the call to action falls *outside* the vendor environment (the  
site) and into the customer environment (the browser). As mentioned  
by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user,  
should s/he choose.


Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best  
unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage  
a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these  
provide value to both vendor and customer - and are not limited  
to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant.


Andrew

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.


(Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version)

On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote:




-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web
Standards.

--

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does  
it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps  
everything

else?

Steve



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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben
I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for this list, but on  
my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously  
our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important  
part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise  
to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes  
educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a new  
medium and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or  
counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on  
banner blindness, naive site owners often still want banner-like  
graphics.


In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to  
explain marketing to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years)  
the call to action falls *outside* the vendor environment (the  
site) and into the customer environment (the browser). As mentioned  
by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user,  
should s/he choose.


Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best  
unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage  
a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these  
provide value to both vendor and customer - and are not limited  
to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant.


Andrew

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.





On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote:




-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web
Standards.

--

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does  
it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps  
everything

else?

Steve



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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben
Do you imagine that a condescending, not to say insulting, tone adds  
weight to your arguments? If so, I'm sorry to disabuse you, but it  
just makes a weak point weaker.


To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as  
to the context of user benefit, call to action. I find it useful  
to remember that the common conception of visitors coming to your  
site has it backwards - they are extending you the courtesy of  
allowing your site to visit their browser. As such it is probably  
better, and certainly more polite, to restrict the scope of one's  
calls to action to the site, and leave decisions about the browser  
environment to the user.


As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the  
opportunity to offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while  
broadly true it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand.


Respectfully.

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.



On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Nathan de Vries wrote:


On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote:
The simple process of adding a favorites link on a web page is a  
proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and  
developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for  
said company.  While on its face this may appear as a user  
benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and  
its creator.


Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user  
benefit? You've got to be kidding me.


While some may be inclined to include a favorites link on a web  
page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function  
requires the user to support a proprietary process as well.


Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's  
possible to improve the user experience of some without negatively  
affecting others. Not only that, but the competition pressures  
vendors in positive ways, more often than not leading to  
standardisation. If vendors sat around holding hands trying to  
reach consensus before releasing features in their browsers,  
innovation would halt altogether.



Nathan de Vries


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben

On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:33 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


differentiation with
superior products or marketing


ROFL!

(sorry, Russ)

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest

2009-03-16 Thread Andrew Maben
Whatever the arguments may be pro or con the original post, once  
again the petty whining about it has wasted considerably more of my  
time, and tried my patience infinitely more than that original post.


Um, doesn't this group have moderators? Moderators who have  
repeatedly shown themselves to be models of tact and good judgement?


If you don't like a post - delete it and get on with your life. Thank  
you.


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.


P.S. Personally I feel the fact that someone is making an open source  
standards-compliant CMS is to be applauded. Very obviously YMMV.



On Mar 16, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote:

I thought the post was brief, informative and to the point. If  
everyone

on this list with a commercial or open source product or service is
prevented from speaking about it at all, we'd lose a lot of  
content. I
don't think Sigurd's posts are over the top, any more than the  
numerous

Dreamweaver, Joomla, Drupal or insert_CMS_name_here posts, and I do
think you're over-reacting just a tad.


Agreed...it's good to know about new products.  It takes
one second to delete the product.  I'll be everyone wastes
significantly more time than that every day...

Rick


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]

On Behalf Of Mark Harris
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 5:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest

Glen Wallis wrote:

Am I the only person on this list who is sick of the constant and

blatant

advertising for this Content Management System? Don't we have rules

against

this? If so, they are not being enforced.



I thought the post was brief, informative and to the point. If  
everyone

on this list with a commercial or open source product or service is
prevented from speaking about it at all, we'd lose a lot of  
content. I
don't think Sigurd's posts are over the top, any more than the  
numerous

Dreamweaver, Joomla, Drupal or insert_CMS_name_here posts, and I do
think you're over-reacting just a tad.

Cheers

~mark


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[WSG] Semantics: Microformats, RDFa

2009-02-27 Thread Andrew Maben
There seem to be some Microformats proponents on the list, but I  
don't recall much mention of RDFa.


I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on their relative merits, both  
immediately and in the longer term?


Thanks,


Andrew Maben

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Re: [WSG] IE and the button element

2009-02-24 Thread Andrew Maben

On Feb 24, 2009, at 7:28 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:


 the point is that it *behaves*
like a button. In other words its purpose is to provide a specific  
kind of

functionality


and if I remember correctly, the functionality to be provided as  
originally stated was a link to a next page. I'd suggest that that  
specific functionality - linking - is adequately provided by the  
anchor tag, and it is inappropriate to use a button (of any kind) to  
provide that functionality.


(And I believe it's irrelevant that various screens specific to an OS  
use buttons to progress from screen to screen, e.g. MacOS's use of a  
Continue button during software installation. If it's a web site  
provide a consistent, standard *web* interface).


$0.02


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2009-02-16 Thread Andrew Maben

On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Use Example A; you can make as visible as you like with CSS.



+1

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2009-02-16 Thread Andrew Maben

On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Use Example A; you can make as visible as you like with CSS.



+1

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2009-02-16 Thread Andrew Maben

On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Use Example A; you can make as visible as you like with CSS.



+1

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] What's the best way to place a link in a document? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2009-02-16 Thread Andrew Maben

On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Use Example A; you can make as visible as you like with CSS.



+1

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs

2009-02-08 Thread Andrew Maben

On Feb 8, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:


On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi all,

Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs  
around your

HTML document?


No.

p.s. ignore all the long-winded answers.


Agreed.


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] friends? - was( Failed A Job :()

2009-01-29 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 29, 2009, at 1:40 PM, James Jeffery wrote:


Some people are rich because they are tight.


This has strayed a long way from standards...! But I just have to add  
to the above. Having been the beneficiary of extraordinary acts of  
kindness from truly poor (financially - but how rich in spirit)  
people while traveling, I've come to the conclusion that many people  
are generous because they are poor, and its corollary, many people  
are tight because they are rich.


Now back to work...


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Website review : http://webprocafe.com

2009-01-16 Thread Andrew Maben

On 16/1/09 16:41, Stewart Griffiths wrote:

Please can you provide feedback on the following website
http://webprocafe.com/

We are looking for thoughts on the design and usability of the site,
plus any general feedback you want to provide.


In the header I see Design, Development, Coffee  [something that  
breaks to the next line and is hidden behind the nav bar]


+1 Benjamin's comments

Subjectively: underwhelmed by the level of professionalism in a site  
apparently aimed at pros (but I do still dream that pro might be  
short for proficient, not just professional. Sadly it seems to me  
that in this field the word professional is applied in the loosest  
possible sense. (Bear with me, this next is NOT an attack on you, or  
your site - you have at least had the humility and good sense to ask  
this group's opinion) but it seems to me that mercenary hack is far  
too often the more appropriate term.


OK rant over, w/ apologies to all...

Andrew

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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

2009-01-14 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 14, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Christie Mason wrote:

Well there goes that theory.  My thoughts were something like  
graphically oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash.   
BCAT's attempting to make Flash accessible is good but if the  
content hadn't been made inaccessible in the first place, then it  
wouldn't be needed.


Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a  
concept,  but it's still primarily used in the eLearning world  
(including both corporate trainers and educators) to port PPT to  
Flash and that's just wrong.


I'm visually oriented - I got here from graphic design - and I love  
Macs and like you am less than thrilled with *the uses to which Flash  
is put on the web*


I think the Mac has a better user interface (or at least did). There  
are things that I do enjoy in Flash.


But as others have mentioned these *personal* attitudes are entirely  
beside the point.


None of the arguments you have put forward seem to me to have any  
real bearing on Flash per se. Yes education is a mess, yes  
educators are too seldom inspired or inspiring. But uninspired  
educators are going to be lazy in their use of any tool put at their  
disposal. Should Flash be banished forever because it is  
inappropriately used and then poorly implemented? I dunno, should we  
ban axes on account of Lizzie Borden?


sorry, I'm just getting tired of this discussion which has long  
since degenerated into an extraordinarily verbose repetition of  
Does! - Doesn't! - Does so! - Oh no it  
doesn't


Seems like the gist was covered days ago, i.e. Flash is a medium  
that has a history of inappropriate use, but Adobe is making efforts  
to extend its accessibility. As a tool it has its uses, in the hands  
of fools it's dangerous.


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-08 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Adam Martin wrote:

but theft is theft, because someone else does it does not change  
the law...


indeed...

but I'm losing track of what exactly this has to do with standards?


Andrew




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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

2008-12-03 Thread Andrew Maben

On Dec 3, 2008, at 8:19 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:

Accessibility is an extension of usability to include non-standard  
ways of

browsing the web.

Complying with WCAG is step towards accessibility. Careful  
consideration

has to be given how one applies WCAG meaningfully.

Research has shown that Websites meeting WCAG were still found  
difficult

to use by disabled users


Absolutely!

Though personally I tend to think of usability as an extension of  
accessibility.


During the design phase I *try* to keep in mind, and in balance:
standards-compliance;
accessibility;
usability;
design.

In implementation I believe each of these levels is a pre-requisite  
to its sequel, and that in turn each enhances its precursor.


A standards-compliant site will likely be more accessible than a site  
presenting the same content using non-standards techniques, and  
provides a solid foundation on which to add accessibility  
enhancements. Likewise, accessibility itself inherently improves  
usability, and opens the way to further usability enhancements, which  
contribute to, and influence, design decisions that can further  
improve usability.


And as for design, I believe its purpose is firstly to enhance the  
functionality of some thing that people use for some definable  
purpose in their daily lives, and this requires a different set of  
aesthetic criteria than those applied to fine art. In the end an  
ugly tool that performs its task efficiently and is easy to use is  
*always* a better design than something that is hard-to-use and  
ineffective. Which is not, of course to say that it's impossible to  
combine beauty, functionality and usability.


Andrew



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Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.

2008-11-25 Thread Andrew Maben

On Nov 25, 2008, at 8:43 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:


Of course, only HTML can be widely used, as long as XHTML isn't
supported by the most used browser.


I'm going to risk venturing an opinion here.

The high hopes that many of us may have had for XHTML as the wave of  
the future seem, sadly, to have foundered on the reef of MS  
intransigence.


Given that XHTML is not going to be supported by IE in the immediate  
future, if ever, serving XHTML strict as text/html seems a little  
quixotic. If your document can't be served as application/xhtml+xml  
then what's the point?


My preference has been to use HTML 4 strict, and I think for now it  
may be for the best to recognize this as best practice. If content  
enters the work-flow as XML, then XSLT can be used to create HTML  
presentation documents.


The HTML 5 spec is very slowly taking shape, and looking promising.  
So it would appear that for the next few years it will probably best  
to accept that it's HTML that will be the norm. XML is not going  
away, so by all means hope for an XHTM revival somewhere down the  
road, but for now, if it's text/html then shouldn't it be HTML as  
HTML, and not XHTML treated as HTML?


IMHO, naturally, and of course YMMV.


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Andrew Maben
Please, could I ask you to take this discussion off-list if you  
want to continue. It's really degenerated to an unresolvable cycle of  
I'm right, No, I'M right... When it just comes down to Use the  
best available solution for the problem at hand


All compressed image file formats have strengths and weaknesses.

Andrew

On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:

First of all, No I am not! Second I have tried out differences.  
Notice the difference in file sizes. Thirdly, I did not say that  
png did not support 8-bit, nowhere does it say that, it does  
however say that GIF only supports a maximum of 256 colors.  
Fourthly, Todd your argument is off subject, because neither MIke  
nor me ever mentioned it looking best, although I would have to  
agree, PNG most certainly does look best, depending on the image.  
And fifthly, Mike, sorry, but no, without using a PNGGauntlet or  
whatever, I am not. All I simply stated is that gif files have to  
be smaller, (probably should have said before) without using  
pnggauntlet. And I say without, because anyone else may not have,  
or know where to get it. Well...and sixthly, I use PNGs just as  
much you, but there are a lot of times when PNGs will not cut the  
job, and GIFs are, again, majority of the time smaller and better.


On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Christian Montoya  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry Brett, you're wrong.

 The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8- 
bit which

 is the same as the gif format.

 The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider  
the

 different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.



 I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.

 They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
almost every time.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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--
Brett P.

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Re: [WSG] Web governance

2008-11-24 Thread Andrew Maben


On Nov 24, 2008, at 12:13 AM, Andrew R wrote:


Can anyone give me some pointers, do have something that works in
your organsiation, etc?


I'm afraid I can't offer help, just let you know I'm another  
companion in pain. This is a problem that seems to be almost  
universal, in organizations large and small, government and business.


I work for a small local government (public library) in the US and  
actually was reprimanded in my annual performance review for  
advocating accessibility and adherence to standards...


So I, too, would love to hear of any strategies that have worked to  
change organizational development practices, and ways in which those  
changes may have been institutionalized.


cheers,

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] First Attempt

2008-11-24 Thread Andrew Maben

On Nov 24, 2008, at 10:47 AM, Kate wrote:


Wow! You hand code
For now, and I think, the foreseeable future, this is still the only  
way available if you want to get it right...



...although its a long road
Yes it is! But worth it, and if you start simply, and follow the  
excellent advice that others here have offered, I think you'll find  
it's quite easy to find your way, and to find others who will be  
happy to help when the going gets tough.


Good luck!


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] First Attempt

2008-11-24 Thread Andrew Maben

On Nov 24, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Bruce wrote:


Hopefully this can get  back on web standards topic...


...might be a good moment to remember a previous thread re: standards  
and swf. I'm sorry not to remember who provided this link, but I've  
found it invaluable:


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay

Andrew



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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

2008-11-13 Thread Andrew Maben

On Nov 13, 2008, at 11:40 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:

How do I get a form field to reset itself back to its default value  
if the user has changed it?



I think it might help getting an answer if you could clarify exactly  
what it is you are trying to achieve here, and why.



Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

2008-11-13 Thread Andrew Maben

On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Brett Patterson wrote:

Sorry, but no. If you look in FF3 it keeps the text entered in the  
form field when page is refreshed the same. It does not remove it.


There are no code examples, and I have exhausted the library and  
internet resources.


Well, forgive me if I go into grumpy old fart mode here, but your  
problem is only tangentially related to Web Standards at best. And  
while I can be grudgingly appreciative of your initiative in  
submitting your school assignment here for an answer I think:
	A) You have actually already received in previous answers quite  
enough clues to work out your own answer
	B) If your teacher isn't utterly incompetent, he won't have set a  
task that he hasn't already either provided an answer to, or at least  
pointers to where to look for an answer.


That said, I'm sure anyone here would be happy to review your  
eventual solution for standards compliance.


Please take this in good part, and good luck,


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Question on servers and Email campaign

2008-11-11 Thread Andrew Maben


On Nov 11, 2008, at 7:41 PM, Graphics  Web Designing, LLC wrote:


I refuse to give anyone access to MY server let alone my root access.

And so you should!!


Am I being rude and uncooperative on this or am I right?
You are right - if you have a business with a client, does that give  
him the right to demand the keys and security codes of your office? I  
don't think so! And how is this different?




Andrew Maben

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Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread Andrew Maben

On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Joseph Ortenzi wrote:

Would I be considered rude if I asked you to continue this  
particular thread off board?


Thanks, Joe. As you saw, I took it off the list once but David had to  
bring it right back. It looks to me as if he just wants to annoy  
people, so I've contacted Russ about it.


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Inline style works but css does not

2008-08-01 Thread Andrew Maben

On Aug 1, 2008, at 2:03 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:

Ive had to work on macs in the past – I wouldn’t wish them on my  
enemy – sorry Michael :P


And the relevance of this comment to the subject at hand, or web  
standards in general, is what exactly?


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Mobile graded browser support

2008-07-21 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jul 21, 2008, at 8:52 AM, Keryx Web wrote:

All right. I will stop complaining about designing for the iPhone  
and try to attack this from a positive angle.


I think designing for the iPhone is somewhat irrelevant, (but I'd  
agree that iphone specific URLs are a scary throwback to the bad not- 
so-old days). I have found that any thoughtfully designed - standards- 
compliant, usable/accessible - site works just fine in the iphone.


How can we go about making our mobile websites according to sound  
principles. Bearing in mind that mobile browsers often lack the  
features we wish they had.


A much more productive line of enquiry...

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] columns with matching vertical alignment

2008-07-09 Thread Andrew Maben


On Jul 9, 2008, at 10:53 AM, Ben Lau wrote:



I would like to know the best (or at least better and simple) way  
to achieve this kind of design.
I have uploaded a sample design image for convenience: http:// 
www.hellobenlau.net/design.gif


Basically I need to have the lists at the bottom of each columns to  
match up vertically, but the content paragraph above it is supposed  
to be dynamic (clients could enter a novel if they wish). I don't  
think setting the list to be position:absolute and bottom:0 would  
be ideal, nor setting a min-height on the paragraph. What should be  
the best approach for this


I don't know about best, but I think I'd divide the page  
horizontally, where the bottom portion contains the lists, and the  
top everything else.
Make this two divs and then place the column parts in their  
respective div.


Perhaps semantic purists might take exception, but I contend that the  
semantic weight of a div is fairly neutral.


Any more elegant solutions, anyone?

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming

2008-07-03 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jul 3, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Al Sparber wrote:


an irrational fear of scrollbars


When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means  
horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA.


If a right hand column falls outside the viewing area, it's not  
unreasonable to assume that a significant number of users will not  
bother to look.


Concern for either of these is scarcely irrational fear IMHO.

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.





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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

2008-05-27 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 27, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Andrew Freedman wrote:


kate provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:21 AM:
The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really  
called the attribute tag.

Kate
Patrick H. Lauke also provided the following information on  
28/05/2008 5:33 AM:


or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people...



That's all well and good and I for one thank you for clarifying  
that but how does that answer Tom's query?


Andrew.


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Really! Is there anyone on this list who doesn't understand the  
distinction between 'tag' and 'attribute'. And does anyone seriously  
not understand what is meant when reference is made to the 'alt tag',  
or to HTML 'code' rather than 'markup'?


I would certainly agree that in the context of a lecture on the  
subject these distinctions are important. But in the context of  
discussions on this list I think this is taking semantic hair- 
splitting to unwarranted extremes, especially if, as Andrew points  
out, it doesn't accompany some effort to respond to the question at  
hand.


I move that henceforth it should be acceptable here to use 'tag' as  
shorthand for 'attribute' and 'code' for 'markup'.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 21, 2008, at 3:44 AM, walied yossry wrote:

In such a situation, either the user(buyer) added something to the  
shopping cart, and still wants to add some other stuff, we will  
call this case A, or the user(buyer) just wanted this single item  
case B.


I think in either case a user needs confirmation that the selected  
item has indeed been added to the cart. Redirection to the cart page  
is probably the easiest (from a development perspective) and most  
reassuring (from a user perspective). I'd suggest that if you're  
going to stay on the shopping page then the user needs to see a  
message to the effect that Item X has been added to your cart with  
a Checkout link, and possibly even a list of all items in the cart  
- and even so a number of users are likely to take a side trip to the  
cart page to make sure, at least for the first purchase. Levels of  
trust in e-commerce remain low (sorry, no citations) so it's still  
very important to provide reassurance at every step.


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Adam Martin wrote:

I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find  
clients, nobody buys it


Sadly, that's probably true enough. But usability is much easier to  
sell - especially if framed in terms of you do want your customers  
to be able to find and purchase your products, don't you?


 Accessibility doesn't even have to be a part of the conversation,  
it's just a huge component of usability.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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Re: [WSG] PHP Standards

2008-05-16 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 16, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Ian Chamberlain wrote:

Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to  
PHP; any
clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even  
application
suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard  
please.


I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of  
what is
floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good  
programmes

stending their time on ASP or J2EE.

Thanks

Ian


Seems like this may be a ways OT, and you may be better off  
consulting one of the PHP lists, but...


Are you asking about PHP Standards or (X)HTML Standards within the  
context of PHP? Even the sloppiest of PHP (or any server-side  
scripting) can deliver impeccable standards-compliant markup, and  
conversely even the most carefully crafted PHP can deliver the most  
hideous tag soup. Though I think you will find that following best  
practices will be mutually reinforcing.


If you're interested in PHP Coding Standards, a Google search will  
open the door to a wealth of information, and there are PHP mailing  
lists as well.


For (X)HTML Standards, this list is an extraordinarily useful  
resource, and if you spend a little time with the archive you can  
find many useful links.


good luck,

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Embed a flash file 100%

2008-05-12 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 12, 2008, at 9:58 PM, Laert Jansen wrote:


I can´t find out why that white area is showing on the top


Well, I'm pretty out of touch with Flash, but looking at your page  
source I was struck by:


var so = new SWFObject(main.swf, main, 100%, 100%, 8,  
#ff);


Could that #ff have anything to do with it?

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 7, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Susie Gardner-Brown wrote:

people think it doesn’t matter what a site looks like as long as it  
is accessible.


Sadly true. But in fact what a site looks like can have a huge  
impact on its accessibility. I think that notion stems from a rather  
misplaced notion that somehow accessible equates to no more than  
can be clearly interpreted by a screen reader. Good design will  
enhance accessibility for all.


To make an extreme analogy: imagine a building whose entrance offers  
a wheelchair ramp, which is reserved exclusively for wheelchair-bound  
visitors, while all others are obliged to scale a rock-climbing wall.  
This may meet the letter of the law in regard to disabled access, but  
would anyone in their right mind describe this as an accessible  
building?


Which may stray a little from the original point. My take on Flash is  
that it can offer useful enhancements to a site (though as many have  
pointed out, there's often a viable alternative using the standard  
tools of the trade), but fall-backs must be available. As for full- 
Flash sites, nothing gets me to my back button quicker than a page  
that arrives with a cute little Site Loading animation...


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Colour accessibility/ usability

2008-05-05 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 5, 2008, at 8:58 AM, McLaughlin, Gail wrote:

There are two people I know of in my company (over 100,000 people)  
who can see the color red fine in the real world, but cannot read  
red text , typically error messages, on a computer screen. They did  
not know they had a problem until they called a help desk to find  
out why they were having a problem completing a form. Turns out  
they received errors but could not read them. The area where the  
error messages appeared looked like smudges to them, not text.


I have not read anything that describes this problem, yet they  
clearly could not see the text well enough to read it. My  
recommendation to developers is to show error messages as black  
text on a white background with a bold red box around the error  
message.


Who would ever have thought? That's really good to know - I've  
already started changing all my .error classes.


Reviewing the changed pages, they seem easier to read/understand to  
me - another case of improving accessibility for a small set of users  
becoming an improvement for all.


Thanks!

Andrew







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Re: R: [WSG] Alternative to align = center?

2008-05-04 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 4, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Viable Design wrote:


W3Schools is not related to or sanctioned by the W3C.


and enjoys a certain notoriety for sometimes offering less-than- 
perfect advice. though when I'm in a hurry I still find it a useful  
resource as an aide memoire...


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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Re: [WSG] making big selections

2008-05-02 Thread Andrew Maben


On May 2, 2008, at 1:04 AM, Andrew Harris wrote:


Been having problems with deciding on the best user interface for a
particular type of form input (for an intranet application).

When we have a list of values from which a user can select one or more
items, there are a couple of choices.
- we can use checkboxes, which is nice and easy for (lets say) up to
15 options, starts to get a bit clunky up to 25 and just gets ugly
from then on.
- we can use a multiple select list, which operates reasonably well up
to quite a large number of choices, but gets a bit of negative
feedback from users who don't find it intuitive. The whole modifier
key thing throws people and they can't tell what's been selected
without scrolling right through the list (what a nightmare that would
be on a screenreader!).

AFAIK, the multi-select is the *right* way to go, but when we're
talking about your larger lists (200+ items) I agree that it is next
to impossible to use - scrolling increments become tiny and you can't
tell what's been selected at a glance (as all selections may be
outside the viewport of the form control).


This is a thorny and much-discussed issue. The consensus seems to be  
that, as you note, the multiple select is not a viable option. And as  
you also point out, offering very long lists of check boxes is  
problematic for several reasons: it's hard for the user to keep  
track, wasteful of space, etc.


I'm happy that I've never had to deal with quite this problem, but in  
a variation I have had to deal with situations where subsequent  
options depend on initial choices, and I've found users to respond  
quite well to an interface where they are only offered the relevant  
subsequent option set after their initial choice. I use JS to open  
and close hidden sections of the form (you have to be careful to  
empty any completed fields if they go back and choose a different  
initial option, but while tedious this is fairly trivial).


I would suggest that any long list can be broken down into sub- 
sections. e.g. if you're listing towns in the US:

Time Zone - State - County

If the list is truly heterogeneous then the alphabet is a sure standby.

So, perhaps:  Choose your item from: category set(s) - item checkbox  
list


The category sets can be nested as necessary - if you have say 1000  
options to choose from, ten primary categories, each offering ten  
subcategories, each with a list of ten items. To allow the user to  
put away a list after making choices keep a display of chosen  
options conspicuously visible, you could even use JS to permit  
removal of items without having to return to the original checkbox.  
Hand-coding all this would certainly be a royal pain, but with server- 
side scripting it's easy using loops.


btw - the CHI-WEB list is also a great place for discussions of this  
type of issue.


Good luck!

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] JS Image Slider

2008-04-30 Thread Andrew Maben


On Apr 30, 2008, at 7:17 AM, James Jeffery wrote:


could be the case when a user has JS enabled and not CSS


I'm having a hard time picturing the circumstances that would prompt  
a user to choose this option - surely, if such a case does indeed  
exist, it must rare as ... (pick your cliche).


Maximising accessibility is a worthy goal, but surely there comes a  
point where the benefit to one audience segment is outweighed by the  
harm to another segment when a feature is disabled. If I were you I  
wouldn't let your concern for this case hold you back from what looks  
to me like a very elegant solution - one that I'm fairly sure I'm  
going to find myself imitating sooner than later, so thanks in advance!


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-30 Thread Andrew Maben

On Apr 30, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Joseph Taylor wrote:


stick with HTML 4.01 Strict while the work is completed on (X)HTML5


IMHO (and given the depth and breadth of the replies to my original  
post I'm feeling very humble right now, as well as extremely grateful  
to you all) -  I do think that given the current state of the art  
this is the best approach, at least for me. But, indeed, let's not  
get into XHTML vs. HTML - I understand and respect the XHTML  
proponents' viewpoint, but in the end isn't it a choice based on  
personal taste?


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Andrew Maben

On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:22 AM, James Jeffery wrote:

What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a  
feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla?


Alas, all too many... can you say ActiveX? how about .NET?  
Whatcha gonna do when boss/client demands some glitzy gizmo found on  
some IE-only site? I mean universal access is a wonderful ideal, but  
let's face it, it's still a pretty hard sell.


And to be fair, M$ has put forward the occasional useful innovation...

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Andrew Maben

On Apr 29, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Joseph Ortenzi wrote:

Most of what I've seen people put into ActiveX and .NET can be done  
otherwise by clever developers and still be standards compliant or  
at least, cross-browser-compliant.


If you need to write proprietary code that is browser specific you  
are not adhering to web standards. either it is important or it  
isn't, no fence-sitting allowed..


well, obviously. and furthermore this is the web standards group, so  
i thought that it would pretty much go without saying.


I was just making the point that there are (way too) many developers  
who are obliged by their employment situation to do things they might  
prefer not to, and worse there are others who aren't even aware that  
there's a fence.


Just because everyone *could* be writing standards-compliant pages,  
sadly that does *not* mean that we can expect that it will become  
common practice in the foreseeable future. I would hope it's  
reasonable to suppose that everyone in this group is committed to  
standards. I'm sorry if it's now heretical to point out that not  
everyone shares our commitment, and that some of us are sometimes  
obliged to cross the line...


Andrew







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[WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-29 Thread Andrew Maben
I'm finding myself having to justify my work methods to a boss who  
has almost zero interest in usability, accessibility or standards.  
(Though I have managed to get into the long-term plan: ...website  
that is compliant with W3C standards and Section 508...)


One question that has been raised is if site X has pages that  
validate as transitional, why do you have to produce pages that  
validate as strict?


To my embarrassment I don't have a ready answer - I realise that it's  
something that I've essentially taken on faith.


Any one care to help fill in the blanks?

Pages that validate as strict are superior to transitional because  
___.


It is important to serve pages that validate as strict because  
___.


Thanks in advance.

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Dreamweaver8

2008-04-08 Thread Andrew Maben

On Apr 7, 2008, at 8:10 AM, John Hancock wrote:


Please, please, please everyone.

Discuss web standards on the web standards group mailing list, and  
my text/WYSIWY editor is better than yours on the HTML Editors  
mailing list...


If there isn't one, feel free to set it up.

thanks,

Grumpy John.



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Please...

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is u deprecated?]

2008-03-31 Thread Andrew Maben

On Mar 31, 2008, at 7:04 AM, Roberto Castaldo wrote:

If you look at an underlined text, what is your very first idea  
about it?,

and they ALL answered: That's a really important text!!!


Strictly in the context of text, underlined text is a typographical  
relative of the double-space following a period: a throwback to the  
typewriter age...


From Wikipedia:

An underline is one or more horizontal lines immediately below a  
portion of writing. Single, and occasionally double, underlining  
was originally used in hand-written or typewritten documents to  
emphasise text. In a manuscript to be typeset, various forms of  
underlining were conventionally used to indicate that text  
should be set in a special typeface such as italics to show  
emphasis, part of a procedure known as markup. With the advent  
of word processing, different typefaces can be used in the  
manuscript directly, so that underlining is no longer needed for  
markup; but underlining is sometimes used in documents in its  
own right.
Underlines are sometimes used as a diacritic, to indicate that a  
letter has a different pronunciation to its non-underlined form.


So underlines, in the content of text, serve as a substitute for, or  
indicator of, emphasis that should more properly be provided by  
italic (or bold).


Is there a browser that supports u but not em, strong, i, b?

The one use that I can imagine would be if attempting to reproduce a  
typewritten document in its original format.


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Andrew Maben


On Mar 28, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote:


Perhaps if you've never seen or used one, it's hard
to conceptualize, but they exist.


Ouch...

However if the subject is still opening new windows vis a vis  the  
target attribute, it seems to me hard to conceptualize a web app  
that doesn't rely on both client- and server-side scripting.


And returning to the original question:

Why not.  I can't imagine it's better practice to replace it with  
javascript.


I'd think that in a web app it certainly is better practice to use  
javascript?


What I'm getting from the discussion to this point:
web *site* - new window bad;
web *app* - new window sometimes necessary
target=_blank - deprecated* and probably bad in any circumstance

No doubt people will continue to hold different opinions as to how to  
deal with links to non-HTML documents. For myself I've decided the  
best course is to offer a direct link and leave it to the user to  
decide whether to open a new window/tab, and I think this is coming  
to be the majority and standard position. Those who hold a  
different view are free to do so, and act accordingly.


Andrew

*a little bee in my bonnet:
deprecated: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deprecated
depreciated: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/depreciated







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Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Andrew Maben


On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote:


I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript.


No, better practice is to avoid foisting new windows on users  
altogether.


(IMHO - but I don't think I'm alone...)

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Andrew Maben


On Mar 27, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Rob Kirton wrote:


of course you are right there, however if the brief says so


I know, I know... sigh / I'm in the middle of half a dozen  
conversations in which which I'm being commanded to make hideous  
assaults on usability - but I do feel duty-bound in every case to  
point out that it is a usability issue, and the possible repercussions.


But, heck, what do any of us know, right?

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] premature to test/worry new site for IE8?

2008-03-21 Thread Andrew Maben

On Mar 21, 2008, at 6:52 AM, tee wrote:


make sure my code will work for IE8...


That's about as reasonable a request as booking a Caribbean cruise in  
hurricane season and asking the cruise company to guarantee fair  
weather...


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] META content-lang. declared but showing up different (for one person reporting)

2008-03-20 Thread Andrew Maben


On Mar 20, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Kristine Cummins wrote:


showing in another language and/or foreign characters...


I don't know if this is applicable, but I was opening/closing fonts  
on my Mac the other day to work on a project in Illustrator - to my  
dismay, I found sections of various sites (Craigslist, particularly)  
were showing up in exactly the same manner.  Turned out that one of  
the Symbol fonts was simply named Helvetica (or whatever it may have  
been) and Safari was grabbing the Symbol rather than the alphabet  
font. The problem also showed in some TextEdit  
docs..


If this is an isolated incident, I'd lay odds that its a system  
configuration issue that has nothing to do with your site - which,  
incidentally, looks just fine on this Mac.


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] IE8 news

2008-03-07 Thread Andrew Maben


On Mar 7, 2008, at 1:18 AM, Michael MD wrote:

when I look at the server logs here I still see almost as many IE6  
users as IE7 users.


This prompted me to look back at our logs (US public library: 10  
branches, about a million circulating items, and in a town with a  
large state university - the students may heavily skew the stats)


Jan 2008
IE7 - 47.2%
IE6 - 25.4%
IE5 -  1%
FF - 22%
Safari - 2.8%

Feb 2008
IE7 - 48.9%
IE6 - 22.7%
IE5 -  1%
FF - 22.8%
Safari - 2.9%

Mar 2008 (to date)
IE7 - 58.6%
IE6 - 15.4%
IE5 -  1%
FF - 21.4%
Safari - 2.9%

So here at least the decline in IE6 usage is quite significant, and  
if the trend continues, has been handily overtaken by FF! Good news  
for me, at least...


FWIW

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Site review - alachua co library

2008-03-04 Thread Andrew Maben
Just a quick thank you to everyone who replied, it's been a *huge*  
help. I'm carefully going over the site with your comments in mind  
and making many changes based upon them.


I'm still very busy, but as soon as things slow down I'll try to  
respond in detail - meanwhile I'll just say that if there were no  
glaring errors, that is in large part due to the invaluable tips and  
hints I've picked up from careful daily reading of this list.


Thanks!

Andrew


On 2008/02/25 10:31 (GMT-0500) Andrew Maben apparently typed:



I'm almost done with a site redesign, and the time is right to ask
for your opinions: http://beta.www.aclib.us
for comparison, the current site is: http://www.aclib.us








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[WSG] Site review

2008-02-25 Thread Andrew Maben
I'm almost done with a site redesign, and the time is right to ask  
for your opinions: http://beta.www.aclib.us

for comparison, the current site is: http://www.aclib.us

I'm aiming for HTML 4.01 Strict compliance, and am periodically  
running the W3C Validator, so no need to notify me of validation errors.


Of course accessibility is important, and this is where your insights  
and criticisms can be especially helpful.


There's some use of Javascript, mostly to show/hide content - I'm  
finishing up some changes to remove the JS dependency for these  
enhancements, (but I'm still using onClick which I'll be replacing  
as soon as I get a chance - deadline compromise...)


I'm not thrilled with the IA, and though changes may be hard to sell  
or implement, I'd welcome any reasoned criticism on this front.


I have yet to write the CSS for print and for mobile devices, and  
would welcome suggestions here too, as well as from iPhone/iPod Touch  
users.


Thanks in advance.

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
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Re: [WSG] hello - [OT] - better the quality of the list

2008-02-15 Thread Andrew Maben


On Feb 15, 2008, at 6:52 AM, Matt Fellows wrote:

With no offense intended to the list moderators, I feel the  
usefulness of this mailing list is diminishing due to an increase  
in irrelevant and lazy postings.

...

Out on a limb here - does anybody else feel the same? If so, do you  
have a suggestion as to how we can better the quality of the list?


Matt


On 2/15/08, John Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Please can this be closed? It's far off any standards related topic.

Yes, please.

The discussions of standards based solutions to various css- nd js- 
related problems are incredibly useful, and esoteric debates about  
the semantic value of various html tags are fascinating, but there  
does seem to be a growing tendency to submit general web technical  
questions that really have no place here.


On occasion I have replied to PHP questions off list, usually  
referring to other available resources - perhaps it would be better  
to make that reply on the list, and then have the moderators  
immediately close the topic?


As for Web 2.0, browsing the results of a Google search could  
surely tell more than anyone could possibly want to know on the  
subject...


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy

2008-01-30 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 29, 2008, at 7:38 PM, Casey Farrell wrote:


IE8 _will_ be the most popular web browser


it ain't necessarily so... first of all prevalent is not equivalent  
to popular, but IE was not always the most prevalent browser, and is  
once again losing some of the market share that it unfairly (as  
judged in court) gained from NS. Users of all stripes are discovering  
Firefox.


From my, admittedly superficial, reading on this, we're looking at  
another MS ploy to entrench their market dominance.


FWIW, YMMV etc...

Andrew

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Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy

2008-01-30 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 29, 2008, at 10:10 PM, Jermayn Parker wrote:


and then we will see the infamous pre-2000 days with websites reading:

This is best viewed using Internet Explorer 6


Would it be so bad if this was This site is best NOT viewed with  
IE?? Come on - Let's not break the web - it's already broken, and  
face it was broken by MS, held together with chewing gum, string and  
hacks.


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Cannot go back

2008-01-17 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:11 AM, Jamie Stewart wrote:

One is by using JavaScript, history.back() is what you will want to  
use.  If you don't want to use JavaScript it is possible through  
code, well with .Net at least.  You can easily access the  
UrlRefferer which gives you the full URL of the previous page.


Of course, disabling the browser back button is evil and  
unnecessary...


The JS solution might work, but the question is how far back in the  
history one must go to escape the clutches of the evil app.


In my day job, the library's web site offers patrons access to  
various subscription databases - the user authenticates with a valid  
library card number on our site and is then passed forward to the  
database site. (Oh yes, and the back button does work). Almost daily  
we get complaints from patrons that the authentication doesn't work  
for them. In almost every instance we find they have Norton Internet  
Security installed. By default Norton suppresses referring URLs. This  
is a hugely popular app that most users install and never even look  
at the settings.


So neither of these solutions will be 100% reliable.

I'm probably a bit of an extremist, but I'm probably not alone - if I  
visit a site that tries to keep me imprisoned like this, I close the  
browser window and *never* return. No site is so compelling and so  
unique as to require that I (or any other user) put up with this abuse.


Can you ask the developers why and how they created this  
dysfunctionality? My guess is that there's some kind of preprocessing  
that goes on before allowing the user into the site itself, and the  
back button takes the user back to that page, which bumps them  
forward again. There is no technical constraint that requires this  
behavior. I seem to recall some wisdom from the 90s that proclaimed  
the desirability of keeping users on your site at all costs, but that  
has long since been discounted. But if there really is some  
compelling non-technical reason for not allowing users to escape back  
the way they came, then I'd suggest that this is a case where opening  
a new window would be justifiable.


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Float-less layouts

2008-01-09 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 8, 2008, at 3:30 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Why would we need to group containers together if it is not for  
styling purpose?


Because we're saying that anything in the container belongs  
together (thematically, content-wise, logically, etc).



On Jan 8, 2008, at 7:56 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:


Does it prove that DIVs carry more semantics?



I'm wondering if the pursuit of semantics might sometimes be taken to  
unreasonable extremes?


Must everything that is contained in the marked-up document contain  
some semantic value? Must anything that does not have an inherent  
semantic value be excluded? Surely not.


If an element is semantically neutral (as DIV) then it necessarily  
has no impact on the semantic value of the content contained within.  
My understanding is that the whole argument against using tables for  
structure is that that use distorts the semantics of the table's  
content.


I hope this analogy is not too far-fetched, but I don't think anyone  
would argue that a page or a column is not a semantically neutral  
container of content in a book, still less that pages should be  
dispensed with as they don't have any semantic value! Anyone (except  
perhaps the occasional Kerouac purist...) want to go back to reading  
scrolls? Parts, chapters, sections, paragraphs, sentences, clauses  
and individual words (and let's remember that the introduction of the  
humble space between words was once a revolutionary innovation), even  
the use of different fonts to represent different voices, are all  
divisions of content that add something semantically. But the  
individual page or column is entirely neutral - different editions of  
a book may have very different page numbers, but it's generally  
agreed that they are in fact the same book. Also, many books contain  
empty pages by necessity as part of the binding process - it's  
laughable to imagine a movement calling for empty pages to be  
excluded on the grounds that they don't have any meaning. So perhaps  
it's not too unreasonable to carry the analogy forward and suggest  
that book is equivalent to website, part is equivalent to site  
area, chapter is equivalent to web page and page or column  
is equivalent to DIV? Which would allow for the continued use of P,  
OL/UL, DL, and the dread TABLE (let's not bring I/EM and B/STRONG  
into it!) to support their intended semantic roles.


None of which, by the way, Thierry, is intended to detract from the  
skill and ingenuity of your IMPRESSIVE demonstration.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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[WSG] standards-compliant designers

2008-01-09 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 9, 2008, at 12:58 AM, Steve Green wrote:


standards-compliant designers represent perhaps 1% of the industry


is this really the figure - any sources?

very depressing - and doesn't help those in a similar position to  
mine - The Florida Library Association (of which our director was  
president at the time) drew up guidelines calling for standards/508  
compliant library web sites. But when I put forward the suggestion  
that our site should adhere to the guidelines: Oh, I think people  
make too much of accessibility...


La lutte continue!

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread Andrew Maben

On Dec 16, 2007, at 9:17 PM, Michael Horowitz wrote:

Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled  
economies beat a free market one.


This is not about government CONTROL, but government REGULATION. And  
no they are not the same thing.


But this is (supposed to be) a web standards discussion, not a  
political ideologies discussion...


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Colors for web design

2007-12-14 Thread Andrew Maben

On Dec 14, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Michael Horowitz wrote:


...color combinations for use on the web.


These might help:

http://vandelaydesign.com/blog/design/find-the-perfect-colors-for- 
your-website/


and of course don't forget colour blindness accessibility:

http://wickline.org/ref/colorlab/

Andrew







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[WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page

2007-11-20 Thread Andrew Maben

There was a note on Macintouch about this page:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/renew/renew_833.html

Safari 2.0.4 on Mac OS 10.4.10 shows a blank page, but viewing page  
source is quite interesting - anyone care to comment?



Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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Re: [WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page

2007-11-20 Thread Andrew Maben
My point was not that there are environments in which it works, but  
the fact that a government page is totally inaccessible in Safari  
2.0.4 on Mac OS 10.4.10.  The comments I'd hoped to provoke would  
refer to the coding practices resulting in the interesting page  
source vis a vis web standards...


Andrew

On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Crocker Ryan (rc) wrote:


Looks good in IE 6  IE 7 also.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:23 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page

safari 3 on 10.4.11 is ok though... matches what I see in firefox

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Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash

2007-10-26 Thread Andrew Maben

On Oct 26, 2007, at 9:21 AM, Michael Kear wrote:
Good lord I’m glad you don’t run my development process. Let  
bloody debian fix their problem!   Why should I have to spend MY  
time fixing things because they don’t get it right???




... you are not fit to manage a commercial development operation.




Please! Enough already!

Some people have enough time, energy and dedication to squash every  
bug. Some people have to deal with considerations.


If you don't have something nice to say...


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links

2007-10-19 Thread Andrew Maben

On Oct 18, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Dejan Kozina wrote:

Anybody (Mac  Linux browsers...) wants to take a ride? The thing  
is up
there at http://www.kozina.com/mailtest/ . Let us know of your  
results.


worked for me: MacOS 10.4.9/Safari 2.0.4

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links

2007-10-17 Thread Andrew Maben

On Oct 17, 2007, at 8:55 AM, Rick Lecoat wrote:

can anyone tell me what is the best accessible way (if any) of  
encoding

a mailto: link?


To answer a question w/ a question:  I have started encoding email  
address strings, but your question makes me wonder how accessible  
this may be? How do screen readers dal with encoded characters, and  
how does a screen reader deal with a plain text email address?


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links

2007-10-17 Thread Andrew Maben

On Oct 17, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote:

All that would take for a spambot is to do a two-pass: replace all  
encoded entities, then scan the result for email-address-like  
patterns. Trivial.


Thanks, Patrick - guess I'll abandon that effort...

Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-08 Thread Andrew Maben

On Oct 8, 2007, at 9:30 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote:


as in the long run, they'll ALWAYS be more trouble than they're worth


Yep. An old truism: the less they pay, the more they want.

But as to the cost of compliant, accessible HTML, does anyone *not*  
find it quicker and easier (and hence cheaper) to write than tag soup?


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-08 Thread Andrew Maben

On Oct 8, 2007, at 2:25 PM, Designer wrote:


Look at the work he's produced : http://www.seftonphoto.co.uk.


sigh yes, I'm afraid you're right...

I've been hand-coding since the day I found Pagemill (remember  
Pagemill?!?) wouldn't do what I wanted. And there's certainly a  
learning curve involved in transitioning from table-based layout, but  
well worth it in terms of increased efficiencies.


But then I did a view source on the page you mention - my heart sank  
at the sight of the dreaded MM_preloadImages()... And of course, as  
long as web development professionals use WYSIWYG (and as long as  
those professionals never look to see the mess that is in fact  
what you get) then I guess sloppy sites will be cheaper.


And why suits like the Tt class action are, sadly, probably the  
only way that a truly accessible web will ever come about.


Thanks - now I'm depressed!

Andrew







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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-05 Thread Andrew Maben
What is baffling about Target's position here is that while on the  
question of the web site they behave like ignorant trolls, meanwhile  
they managed to really break ground in usability with their  
prescription delivery system - http://www.adaptivepath.com/blog/ 
2007/01/26/the-target-pill-bottle-isnt-a-bottle-its-a-system/


go figure...


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-05 Thread Andrew Maben


On Oct 5, 2007, at 3:15 AM, Christie Mason wrote:

There are many ways to change a culture, but legislating is not one  
of them.


I'm sorry, but I can't let that blatantly false statement go  
unchallenged. History is full of examples of changes for the better  
and for the worse brought about through legislation - from Magna  
Carta to the Nazi's racial laws.


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-05 Thread Andrew Maben


On Oct 5, 2007, at 4:57 AM, Michael MD wrote:

If a company shuts down their website because they are being sued  
does that make it more accessable?


Examples of this happening?

Andrew







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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Andrew Maben

On Oct 4, 2007, at 12:23 AM, Michael MD wrote:

Opening the door to yet more lawsuits...


In 2000, Bruce Maguire's accessibility complaint against the  
Olympics.com website was upheld. Did this lead to a spate of  
frivolous, discriminatory lawsuits in Australia? As none of the  
advocates of business' freedom to discriminate in any way they  
choose has brought such a flood to our attention, I would assume that  
there have in fact been few or no accessibility suits filed. On the  
other hand the existence of WSG is surely a measure of how seriously  
the issue of accessibility is now taken in the Australian developer  
community...


And, please, arguing that legislating that business accept the  
responsibility to provide accessibility (or be legally accountable in  
general) is unacceptable unless they are in receipt of government  
monies is laughable - every member of a society is the recipient of  
all manner of benefits, the price we pay to enjoy the benefits is to  
accept the society's behavioral norms, which are commonly codified in  
law.


Andrew








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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Andrew Maben


On Oct 4, 2007, at 1:01 AM, Michael MD wrote:

I think the best response to ignorance is education ... not  
lawsuits...


But as Target chose to dismiss attempts at education? Obviously  
education is preferable to recourse to law, but education sometimes  
fails. That's how people end up in jail...


Andrew







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[WSG] Target class action

2007-10-03 Thread Andrew Maben

Judge allows class action against Target Web site:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071003/wr_nm/target_blind_dc_4

This might advance the cause of standards and accessibility, one  
might hope...



Andrew







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[WSG] Calendars and tables

2007-09-14 Thread Andrew Maben
I think there's more or less consensus that a calendar is tabular  
data. For one month that seems fine: th for days of the week, td for  
dates of the month (+ events on those days).


So what about an entire year? Is a table of tables permissible? Or  
should one somehow cram all the information into a single table?


I await your opinions with interest... and some trepidation!


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] IE, alpha transparency and sliding doors...

2007-08-22 Thread Andrew Maben

On Aug 22, 2007, at 1:00 PM, David Hucklesby wrote:


...all the gunk
with which Adobe products infest PNG files.


I may be mistaken here, but I think the gunk can be dispensed with  
by using Save For Web rather than simply Save or Save As.


Although it may be gunk on the web, this information is essential to  
achieving consistent high quality in print.


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Usability Accessibility Over Design?

2007-08-15 Thread Andrew Maben

On Aug 14, 2007, at 6:07 PM, Andrew Boyd wrote:

It is scary that people still make the distinction between “design”  
and “usability/accessibility/fitness for purpose”.


Exactly! While “usability/accessibility/fitness for purpose” alone do  
not define good design, good design *must* encompass “usability/ 
accessibility/fitness for purpose”, and any design that fails to do  
so is not good.


In case anyone missed it, there's an interesting and provocative  
discussion on the Adaptive Path blog:


http://www.adaptivepath.com/blog/2007/07/17/why-usability-is-a-path- 
to-failure/


and

http://www.adaptivepath.com/blog/2007/07/20/usability-and-failure-a- 
recap/



Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Usability Accessibility Over Design?

2007-08-15 Thread Andrew Maben

On Aug 14, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Philip Kiff wrote:


...you are not approaching the client-designer relationship in a way
that means the customer is always right.  You are rather  
approaching it

from a perspective that the customer does not know what is right...


The client is hiring you, presumably, because you provide expertise  
she does not possess. Obviously there is no call for being  
confrontational, but if the client is proposing design directions  
that are in fact contrary to her own best interests, aren't we  
ethically obliged to point this out and provide alternatives? No  
matter what the business of the site's owner may be, if the site is  
not accessible to, and usable by its *target audience* then the site  
will fail. And guess who's going to be blamed for that failure...


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jul 24, 2007, at 1:19 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website  
and forget to come back to mine.


If you go to the mall, would you be happier if every store you  
entered assigned a staff member to accompany you so you don't forget  
to come back? I don't think so. If you're looking for a specific  
item, you're likely to be comparison shopping and perfectly capable  
of remembering which store has what you want and finding your own way  
back. If you're just browsing, then you'll remember stores that offer  
a pleasant experience - friendly and helpful staff, selection and  
quality of merchandise and ambiance - and will probably go back, even  
eventually mke a purchse, perhaps become a regular customer. If the  
experience is unpleasant - heavy handed sales techniques, poor  
quality, dingy premeises - you're equally likely to remember, never  
to return... Probably the two most insulting customer relations  
postures are coercion and insulting the customer's intelligence.


Further, it's a misunderstanding of the dynamics of the relationship  
to speak of users visiting your site. On the contrary, the user is  
extending an invitation to your site to visit HER browser, on HER  
computer, in HER home or workplace, so you (we) are beholden to the  
highest standards of courtesy and respect, if you hope to be invited  
back.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jul 11, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Hassan Schroeder wrote:


..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer
(or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but
Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about
BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed.


In my experience, also, the position of Web Designer usually means  
specifically Graphic Design for the Web, IA is usually a separate  
discipline/department. But as Breton eloquently pointed out good  
graphic design is *much* more than making purty, and obviously  
design for the web is not the same as print design. The software  
skills required for web design don't even come close to defining a  
good designer, but in today's world no designer, good or indifferent,  
can practice without those skills.


As to the other question addressed in this thread regarding skill  
sets taught in school: even if one intends to specialize, to work  
effectively in a team it is *very* important to have a good working  
knowledge of the scope of the work done by all team members.


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Select that goes to a new URL

2007-07-10 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jul 10, 2007, at 12:20 PM, Paul Collins wrote:


form action=post
action=http://localhost/includes/redirect.php;; name=selectCourse
id=selectCourseForm


Should be : method=post NOT action=post

But I have to wonder why the need to use this method to form a purely  
navigational function..? Unless you're collecting other data within  
the form before the redirect?


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

2007-07-02 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Tony Crockford wrote:

Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on  
every page of a web site.


OR - why does most important *thing* on the page have to correspond  
to h1?


Take a newspaper: arguably the most important *thing* on the front  
page is the name of the paper. Does that correspond to h1? I think  
not: surely h1 belongs to the most important news item on the page?


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-08 Thread Andrew Maben


On Jun 7, 2007, at 6:16 PM, Nick Gleitzman wrote:


Nick Roper wrote:

Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace  
existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an  
additional alternative.


Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about  
accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea  
to use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely  
to get is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively.


The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is  
possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As  
printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good  
print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt  
sites which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even  
Word docs, which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as  
probably an abuse of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation.  
What if I don't have Word installed (and why should I?)?


The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled  
over time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using  
HTML in favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have  
it pointed out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply  
out of touch with what's needed.


From WCAG Samurai Errata:

We ban most PDFs: PDFs that should be HTML are banned unless they  
are accompanied by HTML. All other PDFs have to be tagged.


Andrew

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http://www.andrewmaben.net
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Re: [WSG] Recommended screen size

2007-06-01 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jun 1, 2007, at 12:08 AM, Lea de Groot wrote:


On Thu, 31 May 2007 22:31:28 -0500, Tim Offenstein wrote:

Anyone have a recommendation on what size screen to use as a baseline
when designing for a new site? 800x600 or 1024x768 or something else?


I do base designs for 1024, but I make sure the final implementation
doesn't actually break at 800x, although I ignore it being a little
crowded (I usually also check 600x, but I only fix really bad  
breakage)


That sounds right: design for 1024, accommodate 800 and try to  
tolerate 640


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] Recommended screen size

2007-06-01 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jun 1, 2007, at 12:07 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Or, quit thinking like a print designer. Embrace the variability  
that is a
browser viewport. Size relatively, which can work for 200x400 and  
all the

way up as high as high gets.


With respect, I think this is a rather over simplistic response, at  
least if I'm correctly interpreting your intent.


You seem to be suggesting that a design or layout should be conceived  
as a rectangle with arbitrary relative dimensions, and that those  
dimensions should be preserved at all resolutions through relative  
sizing? Sorry, but that sounds like print thinking to me, and in that  
case how small is the text going to be at 200x400 if it's presentable  
at 800x600?


If I'm missing your point, I'd love to see some clarifying examples.

Meanwhile, whilst I do indeed embrace the variability, there are  
literally infinite possible variations to the size and proportion of  
the browser viewport. I humbly suggest that it is unreasonable to  
expect, and frankly, impossible to achieve a design that will be  
uniformly brilliant in every case. While of course the variety of  
possible modes of final presentation have to be kept in mind, the  
initial design work is going to have to take place on a fixed-size  
canvas. If one sets what I think is the reasonable aim of producing a  
design that will look as good as possible in any presentation mode,  
then it follows that there are presentation modes in which it will  
look better than others. Hence it makes sense to attempt to find some  
congruence between looking better and the probability of any  
particular presentation mode. I'm not advocating, and I don't believe  
Lea was either, that the ideal is to create a design that is in some  
abstract and necessarily highly subjective sense perfect for one  
particular window size and screen resolution and progressively worse  
in any other environment, but rather to look as good as possible in  
the widest possible range of environments while accepting that some  
environments are going to be more common, and that right now a screen  
resolution of 1024x768 is perhaps the most common. I think this an  
honest and honorable goal, and there are many options at our disposal  
in our attempts to achieve it, one, but only one, of which is  
certainly relative sizing.


Andrew

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