Re: [WSG] IE Hack wrecks IE 5.01 design

[Cameron Adams]

An easier hack for versions of IE is:

#element
{
width: 100px; /* all browsers get */
width/**/: 80px; /* all except IE 5.0 get */
w\idth: 60px; /* all except IE 5.x get */
}

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Andreas Boehmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I just realised that the voice-family hack for IE
> behaves not the way I
> expect it in IE 5.01 (works fine in IE 5.5). 
> 
> Unfortunately the site is live already, so hopefully
> somebody can get me
> on track quickly.
> 
> If you have a look at:
> 
> http://www.rmitenglishworldwide.com.au
> 
> You will notice that the menu in IE 5.01 is
> "slightly" stuffed. This
> seems to be due to the IE hack I used for the
> widths. When I take the
> hack out, it improves, but the widths are wrong. Put
> the hack in and IE
> 5.01 completely ignores both, the width it is meant
> to see and the width
> it is not meant to see.
> 
> Here the link to the css:
> 
>
http://www.rmitenglishworldwide.com.au/include/menu.css
> 
> Thanks guys!
> 
> 
> Andreas Boehmer
> User Experience Consultant
> 
> Phone: (03) 9417 0468
> Mobile: (0411) 097 038
> http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au
> Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development
>
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Re: [WSG] modify styles for smaller screen resolutions

[Cameron Adams]

Resolution dependent layout:

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/09/21/

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Cade Whitbourn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm experimenting with using javascript to write in
> alternate style
> information into the body of my webpages, similar to
> the current
> www.smh.com.au method (view source and scroll down
> to immediately inside
> ).
> 
> The method seems to work fine, but I am wondering
> about the pros/cons of
> doing this, from a best practice/web standards point
> of view? Have other
> people implemented similar solutions?
> 
> BTW, I am working within the constraints of a
> specific design where most of
> the components need to be fixed width.
> 
> Many thanks,
> Cade
>
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Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

[Cameron Adams]

Opening a window without navigation elements doesn't
actually stop you from going back in the browser's
history.

You can either:

A. Hit the backspace button to go "back"

B. Right-click and choose "back"

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Priscilla Brice-Weller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window
> should open for this
> form, so that the user cannot use the browser's
> navigation buttons,
> because if they do some of the information does not
> make it back to the
> database (or something like that!).



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Re: [WSG] Ten questions for John Allsopp

[Cameron Adams]

Trust soft Australian journalists not to ask the tough
questions, such as how much drug consumption was going
on backstage at WE04 prior to the WWWF smackdown.

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- John Allsopp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> John,
> >
> > Included in the "more", by the way? This little
> nugget, dropped 
> > casually into an anecdote about rat's milk, the
> Simpsons and 
> > backpackers in internet cafes:
> >
> >So when I came to naming my blog, Sara, who by
> the time people read
> >this will be my wife ...
> >
> > is it off-topic to say "congratulations"?
> 
> I guess it is, but can I just point out that it
> hasn't quite happened 
> yet, as the interview went out earlier than
> anticipated.
> 
> Which is off topic, 'cept for the fact it is in a
> WSG interview with me 
> ;-)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> john
> 
> John Allsopp
> 
>   :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
>   software, courses, resources for a
> standards based web
>   :: style master blog ::
> http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
> 
>
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Re: [WSG] 6 days of WSG meeting frenzy

[Cameron Adams]

Wait a minute! You guys get cake!?

C'mon Dez, step up the catering! :o]

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Lea de Groot
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 22:22:39 +1000, russ - maxdesign
> wrote:
> > The three city WSG meetings have almost aligned,
> like some freaky
> > astrological occurrence:
> 
> Indeed - Brisbane goes first, on Wednesday!
> Could anyone who is planning on attending drop us a
> note, if you 
> haven't already?
> You know how Vaughan hates having to eat all that
> extra cake if we 
> overcater ;)
> 
> I expect we'll also be discussing if we want to do a
> xmas get together 
> - its almost that season! (Not already??)
> 
> warmly,
> Lea
> -- 
> Lea de Groot
> Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet
> 
> Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information
> Architecture, Web 
> Design
> Brisbane, Australia
>
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Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb "you are here" links

[Cameron Adams]

Would you be able to enumerate each point in your
reply? I wasn't able to follow the structure of it.

Sincerely,
--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why
> would you put a
> > breadcrumb in a list? The usual > seperators
> seem ideal, and if you
> > disable styles it is still a breadcrumb; what is
> the obsession with
> > putting everything in a list?
> 
> OK, I admit it... I am obsessed with lists and I
> hereby intend to use lists
> for EVERYTHING from now on - even if pointless and
> counter-productive:
> http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/list-obsessed/
> 
> (view source)
> 
> Russ
> 
>
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Re: [WSG] Zeroing default padding/margin

[Cameron Adams]

I think this is a strong argument for introducing this
technique to others. The most oft-cited reason for not
using semantic HTML is the perceived control that can
be achieved by using tables/a lot of divs.

By removing this "mystery" dimension from the size of
elements, it could help people to become accustomed to
styling semantic HTML.

Personally, I remove margin-bottom from everything,
because I like to use top margin/padding, as it
prevents extra space at the end of sections. (And also
various overflow problems in Opera)

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com

--- Andrew Krespanis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In the cases I've seen - mostly on codingforums.com
> - beginners
> develop bad cases of 'class-itis' due to a fear of
> using tag name
> selectors. This encourages/forces them to address
> the elements
> immedietly and individually; hopefully causing a
> greater focus on
> semantics in the process. ie "What content does this
> page have? What
> tags will I use?" instead of "Hmm... better use
> another div for this
> sentance". High hopes, I know :\



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Re: [WSG] start attribute deprecated in XHTML 1.0 Strict and up.

[Cameron Adams]

I ran into this same problem the other, but forgot to
research it.

How, then, are we meant to start an ordered list at a
number other than 1?

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Nick Lo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I was looking at some data of the form:
> 
> AQUACULTURE
> 1. Scientists: Salmon Hatchery
> Policy Flawed (USA)
> 2. Fish Farms Seen Harming Dive
> Tourism (Malta)
> 3. Escaped Farmed Salmon Find Home
> (Alaska)
> COASTAL DEVELOPMENT
> 4. Mayor Casts Doubt Over Magnetic
> Is Report (Great  
> Barrier Reef)
> 5. Hope for Maldives Rises from the
> Sea (Maldives)
> 
> ...and looking at the how of doing that;  start="4"> type stuff and  
> thought I'd check the specs as to how valid this is
> going forward. As  
> usual the W3C docs were of little immediate help so
> a Google search  
> turned up this:
> 
>
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2004-March/
> 
> 000255.html
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  The Transitional doctypes for HTML 4.01 and
> XHTML 1.0 support
>  the `start` attribute for ``, and a `value`
> attribute for
>  ``. You can use them like this:
> 
>  
>  Ten
>  Eleven
>  Twenty
>  
> 
>  which renders like this:
> 
>  10. Ten
>  11. Eleven
>  20. Twenty
> 
> 2.  The W3C deprecated both of these attributes;
> thus they're
>  invalid in the Strict doctypes for HTML 4.01 or
> XHTML 1.0.
> 
>  A lot of experts consider this deprecation,
> especially
>  the `value` attribute, a very bad decision on
> the part of
>  the W3C. For example, [Tantek Çelik] [1].
> 
>  [1]:
> http://tantek.com/log/2003/01.html#L20030102t0602
> 
>  The basic idea behind attribute deprecation is
> that
>  *presentational* attributes have been
> deprecated, because
>  one should use CSS for presentation styling.
> But the `value`
>  attribute for list items is not presentational,
> it specifies
>  important information about the meaning of the
> list.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm not using XHTML higher than 1.0 Transitional
> but I thought this  
> was noteworthy ...if it is correct. For any of you
> using XHTML 1.0  
> Strict and up, it is possibly something that may
> influence your  
> decision making.
> 
> Nick
>
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Re: [WSG] Fix a mac bug, get the peekaboo bug on the PC

[Cameron Adams]

You can use the same syntax that you'd normally use
for including a Mac-only stylesheet (
http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2004/07/06/filtering-css.html)
to make that position: relative visible only to Macs,
without having to use an extra stylesheet. Just swap
the rule in place of the @import.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Jason Bayly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Leslie/All do u know of a way to stop this from
> occuring?
> 
> On the mac IE5.2/1 im getting the text wrap bug with
> my  tags.. The
> documented fix is to add position:relative; to the
> element to prevent the
> wrap bug.. But in doing so it causes the peekaboo
> bug to present in IE6 on
> the pc.. Is there a syntax hack with css to trick
> one browser into seeing
> the  position:relative; and the other not? I guess I
> could load a style
> sheet for the mac and approach it that way. Tho it
> seems like over kill, to
> do this for only one element.
> 
> p {
>   line-height: 1.4em;
>   margin: 0px 0px 0px 0px;
>   padding: 0px 0px 10px 0px;
>   clear:both;
>   /*adding the below corrects line wrap bug in MacIE5
> but creates
> peekaboo bug in IE6PC*/
>   position:relative;
> }
> 
> Got a center fluid 3 column div layout based on the
> one from ghlish.. Anyone
> got a graceful way to deal with this ?
> 
> http://staging.inggroup.com.au/3462vc_website/ u can
> see the line wrap bug
> in the mac here, the pc bug isnt currently
> presenting.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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Re: [WSG] Joe does Oz

[Cameron Adams]

Yeah, a few 8:30AM beers would go down nicely ;o]

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Mark Stanton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey Joe
> 
> Good to see you on the list. 
> 
> I'll also be speaking at the conference - thrilling
> the audience with
> the finer points of semantic markup in the hang over
> slot (9am on the
> second day). Would be good to catch up before,
> during or after -
> Coffee, beer, whatever.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark Stanton 
> Gruden Pty Ltd 
> http://www.gruden.com
>
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> 2004
> 
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Re: [WSG] Mac (Safari) rendering of colours

[Cameron Adams]

Thanks for the help everyone. It's a little easier to
handle now I know it's a browser bug, not a platform
issue.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Philippe Wittenbergh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Sep 16, 2004, at 1:31 pm, Cameron Adams wrote:
> 
> > a Mac using a display of millions of colours (in
> > Safari) renders the images in the main grey panel
> > differently, thus creating a visible line on
> either
> > side of the content. Whereas on PC it is seamless.
> 
> It happens only in Safari on my Mac. Omniweb, which
> uses nearly the 
> same rendering engine doesn't show the problem. And
> Firefox of IE or 
> Opera7.5 are perfectly fine.
> 
> With Omniweb, I can enable or disable the use of
> ColorSync, it doesn't 
> make any difference on your site (images aren't
> coded to use Colorsync, 
> it shouldn't make any difference anyway).
> 
> Safari has serious problems with display of colours
> in images. It is 
> really bad with PNG files - try to match a flat
> coloured 32bit PNG to 
> the same HTML colour set in the stylesheets it
> can be ugly, the 
> images are on average 10% darker.
> 
> The only advice I can give: use all the same format
> - either jpeg or 
> gif, don't mix in an environment as yours.
> 
> Philippe
> ---/---
> Philippe Wittenbergh
> now live : <http://emps.l-c-n.com/>
> code | design | web projects :
> <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
> IE5 Mac bugs and oddities :
> <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
> 
>
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[WSG] Mac (Safari) rendering of colours

[Cameron Adams]

Hi,

I was wondering whether anyone knew why on my site:

http://www.themaninblue.com/

a Mac using a display of millions of colours (in
Safari) renders the images in the main grey panel
differently, thus creating a visible line on either
side of the content. Whereas on PC it is seamless.

I'm guessing it arises because I use a JPEG for the
main middle part, and GIFs for the two sides (or vice
versa) and the computer is rendering the colours
differently? But on a PC machine it's all fine and no
discrepancies can be seen.

This also happens on another site I'm developing,
where the CSS background-color differs from the JPEG
background image on Mac, but looks fine on PC.

If anyone knows a solution it would be much
appreciated.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com



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Re: [WSG] commonly used order of styles within a css class

[Cameron Adams]

If you think about it, ordering IDs in the order that
they appear in the HTML goes against the grain of
XHTML/CSS separation of content and style.

If you change the position of an object in the HTML,
then you have to change it in the CSS, otherwise your
order becomes meaningless. The best way is to have an
order independent of the HTML content, such as
alphabetical.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Brian Duchek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm 100% with Andy on this one. My coding style (pun
> intended) usually
> falls into the source ordered approach (i.e. the ID
> selectors will be
> found in the CSS in the same order that they appear
> in the HTML
> document).
> 
> I'll do grouping of "helper" classes as well, as I
> use them as sort of
> utilities.
> 
> Within each class or selector statement, I'll let my
> editor (DW or
> Topstyle) place them for me.  At most it ends up
> being 10 short lines
> of text, and easy enough to scan quickly and
> identify what's what.
> 
> I do tend to put any hacks or "unusual approaches"
> at the bottom of
> the definition.
> 
> Cheers!
> Brian Duchek
> www.inquiline.com
> 
> 
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:33:23 +0100, Andy Budd
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sean wrote:
> > 
> > > Does anyone know if there is a common way of
> listing styles in CSS? I
> > > don't mean the order of a:hover a: visited, or
> the order of
> > > specification. I am thinking more of some
> logical order that would be
> > > helpful to anyone else working on stylesheets I
> have created.
> > 
> > Are you meaning in a micro or macro sense. i.e.
> how to structure sets
> > of statement within a stylesheet or how to
> structure a set of
> > declarations within a statement?
> > 
> > If it's the former there tend to be a couple of
> main ways. One is to
> > group statements into logical types, such as all
> layout goes in one
> > place, all text stuff in another. However I
> personally break this info
> > into separate stylesheets as I find it easier to
> manage.
> > 
> > Another popular way is to structure stylesheets
> based on selector type,
> > so you may have all element selectors first, then
> all id's and lastly
> > all classes. I can see the logic behind this but
> it's not something I
> > favour.
> > 
> > The way I tend to arrange statements is by
> position in the flow of the
> > document. So I'll have all universal statements at
> the top, then
> > statements relating to the header, nav, content
> and finally footer
> > statements at the bottom. This works well for me,
> but I do often find
> > that I'll need to add a new statement later that's
> the same of similar
> > to one I already have. Rather than taking the
> original statement out
> > and putting it up top with the universal
> statements, I tend just to
> > tack a new selector on. This means that sometimes
> statements aren't
> > always exactly matching the flow of the document.
> This is fine if
> > you've only got one person working on the CSS, but
> would get confusing
> > if you've got multiple people using the same file.
> > 
> > As for arranging declarations within a statement,
> because statements
> > don't tend to be so long, I generally don't have a
> format. I simply put
> > them in the order I write them in.
> > 
> > Andy Budd
> > 
> > http://www.message.uk.com/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
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> >
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> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Brian Duchek
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> c: 847.809.2140
> w: www.inquiline.com
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
**
> The discussion list for 
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04
> http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration,
> knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1,
> 2004
> 
>  See
> 

Re: [WSG] commonly used order of styles within a css class

[Cameron Adams]

I normally use the box model in combination with
background to foreground layering to order my styles:

- display
- positioning
- margin
- border
- padding
- background
- foreground (text)

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Sean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Does anyone know if there is a common way of listing
> styles in CSS? I 
> don't mean the order of a:hover a: visited, or the
> order of 
> specification. I am thinking more of some logical
> order that would be 
> helpful to anyone else working on stylesheets I have
> created.
> 
> For example, perhaps the font and inline information
> is first, the 
> block, padding and margin information next, and then
> the positioning.
> 
> In the same way that naming conventions of CSS
> classes and IDs is 
> helpful, is anyone aware of any logical or
> consistent order in which 
> the styles are displayed in CSS?
> 
>
**
> The discussion list for 
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04
> http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration,
> knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1,
> 2004
> 
>  See
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting
> help
>
**
> 
> 




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To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] list of well constructed websites

[Cameron Adams]

http://www.webstandardsawards.com/

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Roland Munyard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> motivated by the recent email about
> http://www.chevrolet.com  is there an up to date
> list of well constructed websites that use CSS. -
Roly




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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Unaccessible - NY Attorney General busts two big name sites

[Cameron Adams]

Ah, I was under the impression that that was
pertaining to Government sites.

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Nick Cowie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Cameron 
> wrote:
>  
> > Did we resolve whether Australian legislation has
> the
> > potential for similar effects?
> 
> Have you forgotten Sydney Olympics web site, it was
> 4 years ago the Human Rights Commission awarded
> A$20,000 compensation in the Maguire vs. SOCOG case.
> You can find it all here:
> http://www.contenu.nu/socog.html
> 
> Nick
>
**
> The discussion list for 
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04
> http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration,
> knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1,
> 2004
> 
>  See
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting
> help
>
**
> 
> 




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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Unaccessible - NY Attorney General busts two big name sites

[Cameron Adams]

Wow, that's big.

Did we resolve whether Australian legislation has the
potential for similar effects?

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Ben Bishop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 19 Aug 2004 - The Attorney General of New York has
> deemed parts of
> Ramada.com and Priceline.com inaccessible to
> assistive technology.
> 
> "The Attorney General opined that the Americans With
> Disabilities Act
> requires that private web sites be accessible to
> blind and visually
> impaired Internet users."
> 
> Settlements reached will attempt to make both sites
> more accessible.
> 
> "Under the terms of the agreements, the companies
> will implement a
> range of accessibility standards authored by the Web
> Accessibility
> Initiative ("WAI") of the World Wide Web Consortium
> ("W3C"), an
> organization that recommends Internet standards."
> 
> "The companies must also implement a wide variety of
> other
> initiatives, based on guidelines authored by the
> W3C."
> 
> "In addition to the steps outline above, Ramada.com
> and Priceline.com
> will pay the State of New York $40,000 and $37,500,
> respectively, as
> costs of the investigation. The Attorney General
> emphasized that once
> the companies were notified of the accessibility
> issues by his office,
> they worked cooperatively and creatively with his
> Internet Bureau to
> correct the issues."
> 
> Attorney General's Press Release
>
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug19a_04.html
> 
> Sandy Clark's comments
>
http://www.shayna.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=78672CBF-CABE-65E3-306A96044957F88C
> 
> John Dowdell's comments
> http://www.markme.com/jd/archives/005883.cfm
>
**
> The discussion list for 
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04
> http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration,
> knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1,
> 2004
> 
>  See
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting
> help
>
**
> 
> 




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Re: [WSG] Form labels

[Cameron Adams]

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/03/24/

--- Wasabi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> After completing a form with labels, as suggested in
> a usability 
> guideline I noticed firefox choked on them. None of
> the text fields 
> would populate until I removed the labels from them.
> Could some one 
> point me to a specification on proper implementation
> of labels.
> 
> 
> C
> 
>
**
> The discussion list for 
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04
> http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration,
> knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1,
> 2004
> 
>  See
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting
> help
>
**
> 
> 





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[WSG] New Portfolio Site

[Cameron Adams]

Hi,

I just put up my new portfolio site:

http://www.themaninblue.com

(standards? of course!) that follows up on the talk I
gave to the Melbourne brotherhood of Web Standards:

http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event11.cfm

And there's a weblog entry too!

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/07/23/

Plenty of floaty goodness and gracefully degrading
JavaScript, so drop by!

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com




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Re: [WSG] Blue Moon -- Need help on IE5 Mac Floating

[Cameron Adams]

Thank you both Hugh and Philippe. In the
MacIE5-specific CSS I can just set it to "clear: none"
and it works fine.

Thanks!
--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Hugh Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Cameron,
> 
> Your problem is the "clear" you are using for
> #content1. Mac IE 5 
> wrongly clears floats inside clearing block
> elements, and you can't fix 
> it with "clear:none;".



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Re: [WSG] Blue Moon -- Need help on IE5 Mac Floating

[Cameron Adams]

But #content is the parent of the two floated
elements, and "clear" rules aren't inherited, so it
doesn't affect what's nested.

Or is this just a MacIE5 bug?

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com



--- Philippe Wittenbergh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> On Jul 20, 2004, at 4:32 pm, Cameron Adams wrote:
> 
> > This page:
> >
> >
> http://www.webpublishing.com.au/dev/dsto/project.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > works fine in everything (Win IE 5+, FF, Opera,
> > Safari) EXCEPT Mac IE 5.
> >
> > It has a problem with 2 floats: the major float of
> the
> > sidebar, and also the float of the image in the
> main
> > content. It seems to clear them, though there's no
> > such rule.
> >
> > The file containing the structural layout is:
> >
> >
>
http://www.webpublishing.com.au/dev/dsto/css/main.css
> >
> >
> >
> > But I'm serving up different styles for Mac IE
> using:
> >
> >
>
http://www.webpublishing.com.au/dev/dsto/css/macIE5.css
> 
> <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/float2misc/#fm002>
> 
> You declare on div#content {clear:both}
> This breaks the floated thing inside #content.
> 
> One solution is to insert a clearing div just before
> div#content
> 
> Philippe
> ---/---
> Philippe Wittenbergh
> now live : <http://emps.l-c-n.com/>
> code | design | web projects :
> <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
> IE5 Mac bugs and oddities :
> <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
> 
>
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> The discussion list for
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>
*
> 
> 
> 





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[WSG] Blue Moon -- Need help on IE5 Mac Floating

[Cameron Adams]

Hi All,

I wouldn't ask unless I'd pulled my (rather short)
hair out already.

This page:

http://www.webpublishing.com.au/dev/dsto/project.htm



works fine in everything (Win IE 5+, FF, Opera,
Safari) EXCEPT Mac IE 5.

It has a problem with 2 floats: the major float of the
sidebar, and also the float of the image in the main
content. It seems to clear them, though there's no
such rule.

The file containing the structural layout is:

http://www.webpublishing.com.au/dev/dsto/css/main.css



But I'm serving up different styles for Mac IE using:

http://www.webpublishing.com.au/dev/dsto/css/macIE5.css



Even though I'm using the negative margin technique,
the same behaviour occurs when I change the HTML to
have the sidebar content before the main content, and
only float the sidebar. Any help is much appreciated!

Regards,
--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com



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Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Quick Poll

[Cameron Adams]

I think we should hold a Standards-based bikini
contest.

That notwithstanding, I'd probably go for every 4
weeks, or at least a bit more regularly.

--
Cameron


--- afdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey there all Melbourne members of this list.
> 
> At the last meeting of the Melbourne WSG, it was
> suggested that we meet 
> more frequently.
> 
> Currently we are meeting every 8 weeks.
> 
> The alternatives are:
> 
> 1. Meet every 4 weeks
> 2. Meet every 6 weeks
> 
> If you have a strong feeling either way, please send
> your thoughts to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Of course feel free to use this opportunity to give
> us any other 
> feedback/suggestions (such as future speakers, how
> we run meetings, our 
> fashion sense etc.)
> 
> PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS LIST
> 
> You have till Monday 5pm, to have your say.
> 
> cheers
> dez
> Melbourne WSG Co-Organiser
>
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> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>
*
> 
> 
> 




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Re: [WSG] pixel to ems converter

[Cameron Adams]

Ems are actually standard units that are based on what
font size your browser is set to (in some browsers),
in combination with the "font-size" property in your
CSS.

While this may correspond to the actual width of an
"m" in a font, any such correspondence is merely
coincidental -- the font type has nothing to do with
the unit "em" as it relates to CSS.

I did whip up a page that shows a rough scale of ems
for different browser variables that might help you:

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/05/27/

http://www.themaninblue.com/experiment/emWidths/

Regards,
--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> On Monday, June 21, 2004, at 05:11  PM, Michael
> Andrews wrote:
> 
> An 'em' is different from font to font - it refers
> to the width of a 
> character, and the same character is a different
> width in different 
> fonts. Ems are proportional measurements.



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Re: [WSG] Ten Questions for whomever

[Cameron Adams]

Can we do one of those interviews where I punch the
camera, then you chase me to my car?

--- Russ Weakley - Maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Don't worry, Man in blue, you are on my "to
> interview" list!
> :)
> Russ
> 
> > I heard he's a J.D. Salinger-type recluse who only
> > gives interviews for six figures.
> > 
> 
> 
>
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> The discussion list for
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>
*
> 
> 





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RE: [WSG] Ten Questions for whomever

[Cameron Adams]

I heard he's a J.D. Salinger-type recluse who only
gives interviews for six figures.

--- Kay Smoljak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> you know who I'd like to see interviewed? That Russ
> guy who runs that cool
> site...
> 
> :)
> 
> --
> Kay Smoljak
> Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation
> PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/
> Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Russ Weakley 
> > - Maxdesign
> > Sent: Wednesday, 2 June 2004 9:03 AM
> > To: Web Standards Group
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] Ten Questions for whomever
> > 
> > Well... That is slightly incorrect... So far we
> have done:
> > 
> > Eric Meyer
> > Keith Robinson
> > Anne van Kesteren
> > Nick Finck
> > Andy Budd
> > Patrick Griffiths
> > Simon Willison
> > 
> > None of these people will be presenting at Web
> Essentials 
> > 2004 in Sydney.
> > 
> > Over the coming months I'll be interviewing Dave
> Shea, then 
> > possible Doug
> > Bowman, Joe Clark and John Allsopp - all of whom
> will be 
> > presenting at WE04.
> > 
> > Russ
> > 
> > 
> > > AFAIK You have to be a big player in web
> standards, there 
> > has also been
> > > some correlation between interviewees and people
> at the Web 
> > Essentials
> > > seminar series later this year which is fair
> enough.
> > 
> >
>
*
> > The discussion list for
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> > See
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting
> help
> >
>
*
> 
> > 
> 
>
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> http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>
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> 
> 





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RE: [WSG] accessible and stylish forms

[Cameron Adams]

Nah, I reckon it was this one:

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/03/24/

P.S. Stop stealing my titles, Andy :p

Regards,
--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Kat Rasmussen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This might be the one: 
> <http://www.aplus.co.yu/dots/109/>
> http://www.aplus.co.yu/dots/109/
> 
> -Original Message-
> 
> I saw a web site that described how to create fully
> accessible forms and
> make them look purty.  Does anyone know where that
> would be?
> 
> 





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Re: [WSG] javascript form submission

[Cameron Adams]

Ideal situation is to have an "onload" in the form
tag, to allow for quick checking of the form without
the user having to submit to the server.

However, you always need server-side validation, as
anyone without javascript will be always be able to
circumvent your client-side form checking.

Ideally: both; minimal: server side.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- "Todini, Gianfranco (TWIi London)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> This is my first post on this list and I'd like to
> say that I find it really
> really useful and intersting!
> 
> I need to do some changes on a website to improve
> accessibility and one of
> the issue that I need to solve is the way the form
> are submitted, which is
> done by a javascript function called from the
> onclick event on an Anchor
> tag. And we know that this is wrong because if a
> user has got javascript
> disabled, he won't be able to submit the form.
> 
> I'm going to add an input type="image" button which
> will do the job but,
> where should I put now the form validation? I mean
> can I still use the
> onsubmit event on the input type image and use the
> same javascript function
> that there was before or is it everytime better to
> have the validation on
> the server-side to have a proper accessible form?
> Thanks everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gianfranco Todini
> Front-end developer
> TWI Interactive Limited
> Hogarth Business Park
> One Burlington Lane
> Chiswick
> London, W4 2TH
> 
> Tel:  +44 (0) 20 8233 6212
> Fax:  +44 (0) 20 8233 6101
> Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Visit www.twii.net for news and information on
> TWIi's solutions and services
> (see below).
> 
> TWIi is part of the Mark McCormack Group of
> companies
> 
> 
> DISCLAIMER - The preceding e-mail message (including
> any attachments)
> contains information that may be confidential, may
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RE: [WSG] Launched my third xhtml site!!

[Cameron Adams]

Can I order a strangulation by proxy? ;o]

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Taco Fleur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> If you come to the Web standards meeting tonight you
> will have a chance to strangle me, and so will a lot
> of other people...
> 





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[WSG] Melbourne Meeting - May

[Cameron Adams]

Is the Melbourne meeting really May 3? (like it says
on the web site) If so, it snuck up quick!

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com




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Re: [WSG] A tip on using multiple CSS classes

[Cameron Adams]

Lea de Groot wrote:

> But I'm happy to bow to your greater knowledge :)

Bow to the mighty Russ-o-tron, puny Earthling! ;o]

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com





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[WSG] Melbourne Meeting - May

[Cameron Adams]

Is the Melbourne meeting really May 3? (like it says
on the web site) If so, it snuck up quick!

--
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Re: [WSG] A tip on using multiple CSS classes

[Cameron Adams]

Lea de Groot wrote:

> But I'm happy to bow to your greater knowledge :)

Bow to the mighty Russ-o-tron, puny Earthling! ;o]

--
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Re: [WSG] Web Essentials 04

[Cameron Adams]

Can I get a dollar discount for every newbie question
I answer on this mail list?

--
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W: www.themaninblue.com

> 
> That's gonna have to be one helluva discount! ;)
> 
> -- tim
>




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RE: [WSG] XHTML Form + Label - Errors

[Cameron Adams]

Who's blaming the what now?

--
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W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Nick Cowie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> and blame Cameron Adams aka the man in blue
>
http://themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/03/24/
> for my thing with  &  a couple of
> HTML 4 tags.
> 
> Nick




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Re: [WSG] Relative Fonts

[Cameron Adams]

Given the ignorance of some of your users, I'd assume
they were using IE.  But remember, there's no such
thing as fixed font design anymore. Mozilla, Safari et
al all resize fonts irrespective of units.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Gary Menzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't consider myself a guru on web standards
> (specifically XHTML/CSS)
> but am learning and getting better.
> 
> I like standards.  I dont like how they aren't
> uniformly supported (and am
> not really concerned about getting into another
> Browser Wars thread).
> 
> But I am having some issues with Relative Fonts (you
> know the EM's).
> 
> I understand them.  Know why it is good to use them.
>  And have built the
> "templates" (header/footer wrappers) for our site
> with EM's.
> 
> There are issues though
> 
> * Embedded WYSIWYG editors are still very immature
> when it comes to XHTML
> and CSS (our CMS lets us plug in lots of editors but
> most of them lack
> something in some way or other) so enforcing the use
> of EM's is flawed (at
> best).  Some of the editors support the use of
> stylesheets and I suppose
> that is a path I could go down - but fully compliant
> XHTML is still
> difficult given that most editors still allow hand
> editing (and you do
> still need that because the HTML world is not
> perfect).  Some of it may
> size - some of it may not.
> 
> * Lots of people out there don't even know their
> Browser has the ability
> to control font size in a relative way.  So when we
> launched our new site
> we had HUNDREDS (not exagerating - they are all
> logged) of complaints
> about the font size being "too small" or "too big"
> because they did not
> have their font size set to "medium" (and there
> doesn't appear to be a way
> to detect what the setting is - probably because it
> is not "standard").
> And, if you have a mouse with a scroll wheel, it is
> very easy for the size
> to change when you are on a "fixed size" page and
> not realise it.
> 
> * Some (more likely than less) designs just CANNOT
> be implemented using
> only relative fonts.  Say you want to have a fixed
> 200px wide column on
> the right hand side and a "stretchy" column in the
> middle.  The content on
> the right hand side HAS to be designed to "look"
> right in that 200px
> space.  So that means you cannot really use relative
> font sizes if you are
> filling the 200px space.  If they size it up - it
> wont fit and will look
> stupid.  So this then defeats the purpose of using
> relative fonts at all -
> because, when they DO upsize the font, part of the
> page will size and part
> of it wont.  Just go to some of the "well known"
> CSS/XHTML standards-based
> sites (wont mention any names) and you will find
> that not every part of
> the page sizes - but is this right?  What if the bit
> that is "too small"
> for my eyes (e.g. the Menu) is the bit that the
> designer has in a fixed
> font ?
> 
> 
> Lots of reasons to go back to fixed point sizes.
> 
> 
> So - what does everyone do?
> 
> 
> As I said, I know how EM's work, what they are for,
> why you would use them
> and am not asking about that - but I am just about
> ready to go back to
> fixed point sizes.  I always thought I was just a
> "tech head" programmer
> but the designer in me is coming out and the
> "aesthetics" of sites are
> starting to assert themselves rather strongly. 
> Relative font sizes ruin
> good design.
> 
> 
> 
> Gary Menzel
> Web Development Manager
> IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
> Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
> PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828
> 
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Re: [WSG] tantek high_pass & @import

[Cameron Adams]

I'm sure you can find a hack here:

http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- 7 sinz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi
> Im wondering if there's a way to block out IE 5
> Windows but not IE5.5?
> 
> At the moment im using high_pass filter. Is there
> another way? without 
> effecting anyother version/or platforms?.
> 
> by the way- is it ok to use something like this.
> 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> url("high_pass.css");-->
> 
> @import and high_pass? what will version of borwsers
> will be effected with 
> this?
> 
> thanks in advance
> 
>
_
> Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and
> polyphonics. Go to  
>
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
> 
>
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[WSG] Re: List Left Margin

[Cameron Adams]

Geeze Russ, aren't you married?

http://www.browsercam.com/projects/56771/930830.jpg

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RE: [WSG] WSG Design competition is now open

[Cameron Adams]

I'd have thought you'd:

- Receive entries
- Wait for the deadline
- Set up a gallery of said entries
- People vote for their favourite one, once only,
secretly
- Winner takes all

Why do you need to see what other people are voting?

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Peter Firminger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi woric.
> 
> > My question is will the voting results will be
> kept secret
> > until the voting
> > finishes, or will they be known before voting
> closes so we
> > can change our
> > vote accordingly?
> 
> Hmmm democracy... I wonder how an election for the
> leader of a country would
> go if the results were tabulated in real-time. Only
> the party faithful would
> vote early. Add to that the ability to change your
> vote and I think you
> could start a civil war on polling day.
> 
> > It might make a big difference as to whether or
> not the poll
> > reflects the
> > true intentions of the group.
> 
> I personally believe that personal preference
> (especially on what could be
> considered art) should not be influenced by peer
> pressure or it causes
> prejudice to some degree.
> 
> I'm really not married to it as I believe in this
> case, the best design will
> win either way, and I'm not going to get a tax rise
> depending on the result!
> 
> My only real concern is the embarrassment factor for
> a designer that gets 0
> votes. Maybe we compromise and only give the current
> top 5 candidates?
> 
> I haven't built the system yet and I'm happy to go
> with what everyone else
> thinks, secret ballot or show the current voting
> tally beside each
> submission?
> 
> Please comment on the discuss page...
>
http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/12.htm
> 
> > woric
> >
> > PS: Secret is bad. Big bad.
> 
> Shhh don't tell anyone!
> 
> P
> 
> 
>
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>
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> 


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Re: [WSG] CSS & the Linux documentation project

[Cameron Adams]

Well ... you know, the webmonkey.com domain name will
be up for grabs soon ... but it's all a bit hush-hush,
so shhh ...

;o]

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- russ weakley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, we have seen some amazing stuff come out of
> TheManinBlue - auto
> accessible forms, css scrabble...
> 
> Is this a hint about an upcoming project? Something
> like a
> Blind-monkey-auto-layout-tool ?
> 
> :)
> Russ


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Re: [WSG] CSS & the Linux documentation project

[Cameron Adams]

Geeze, if Slashdot is meant to be the domain of
supposedly tech-savvy readers, it's scary how many of
them know jack-all about Web development.

And statements like "I'd support standards if any
modern browser was compliant" ... Sure, they're not
compliant, but for styling most of the pages
mentioned, (and the personal sites of some of the
commenters) I think that a blind monkey could probably
make them look better using only the intersection of
all CSS rules that *do* work in every modern browser.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Mark Stanton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/04/03/30/0041253.shtml?tid=106&tid=126&t
> id=185&tid=95
> 
> Very interesting - even if just to demonstrate how
> little most people
> understand about CSS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> --
> Mark Stanton 
> Technical Director 
> Gruden Pty Ltd 
> Tel: 9956 6388
> Mob: 0410 458 201 
> Fax: 9956 8433 
> http://www.gruden.com 
> 
>
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> 


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RE: [WSG] How do I start a group in a city

[Cameron Adams]

No, really, he isn't!

;o]

--
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W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Peter Firminger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> and I'm not the
> socialising type!
>  
> P

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[WSG] CSS Form Layout Examples

[Cameron Adams]

Hi,

You might be interested in some accessible, semantic
form layouts I've made:

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/03/24

Regards,

--
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W: www.themaninblue.com

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[WSG] APC Article on Web Standards

[Cameron Adams]

Has anyone read the opinion article in APC Magazine
regarding Web Standards? (I haven't)

It gets a brief mention here:

http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/dir/latest

Apparently its a bit scathing of them, but not having
read it I can't really comment.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com

--- Nick Lo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just came across this...
> 
> http://www.scotconnect.com/webtypography/index.php
> 
> Nick
> 
>
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> 


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Re: [WSG] Actual page width (was: drop down menus)

[Cameron Adams]

640 x 480 seems a bit big, how am I meant to view it
on my 320 pixel phone?

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Bernie Howe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Build you site flexable and not fixed, let it expand
> from 640x480  to 1024x768
> 
> 
>   - Original Message ----- 
>   From: Cameron Adams 
>   To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>   Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 6:29 PM
>   Subject: RE: [WSG] Actual page width (was: drop
> down menus)
> 
> 
>   I generally design to 760px width, that gives you
> a
>   fairly big margin of error. The actual Windows
>   scrollbar is 16px, but it varies across
> OS/browser,
>   and you also have to think of collapsed side bars,
>   etc.
> 
>   Better to err on the side of narrowness.
> 
>   --
>   Cameron Adams
> 
>   W: www.themaninblue.com
> 
> 
>   --- theGrafixGuy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   wrote:
> 
>   > When a screen resolution is 800 x 600 - what is
> the
>   > Actual width of the
>   > browser viewing area (taking the window borders
> into
>   > account). If the page
>   > extends beyond the depth of the page and the
> browser
>   > adds a scroll-bar, what
>   > is the width of the browser's viewwing area
> now??
>   >  
>   > Thanks a bunch and forgive me if this is
> somewhere
>   > out there, I just have
>   > not been able to find the answers.
>   >  
>   > Brian
>   >  
>   >  
>   > 
> 
> 
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> help
>  
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> 


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RE: [WSG] Actual page width (was: drop down menus)

[Cameron Adams]

I generally design to 760px width, that gives you a
fairly big margin of error. The actual Windows
scrollbar is 16px, but it varies across OS/browser,
and you also have to think of collapsed side bars,
etc.

Better to err on the side of narrowness.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- theGrafixGuy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> When a screen resolution is 800 x 600 - what is the
> Actual width of the
> browser viewing area (taking the window borders into
> account). If the page
> extends beyond the depth of the page and the browser
> adds a scroll-bar, what
> is the width of the browser's viewwing area now??
>  
> Thanks a bunch and forgive me if this is somewhere
> out there, I just have
> not been able to find the answers.
>  
> Brian
>  
>  
> 


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Re: [WSG] drop down menus

[Cameron Adams]

Although menus have obvious benefits in access to a
large number of items, I'm not sure that they
translate well to web navigation.

Outside of a web page, drop-down menus are used for
function points, not navigation: change text size,
cut, copy, view source, etc. They're one-off actions
that don't require you to reference them once you've
used them.

Navigation on a web site needs to be more persistent
-- you like to know where everything is, where you
are, where you've been; not have hidden surprises.
With a menu system you would have to duplicate
navigational elements in order to achieve this
information.

Additionally, drop-downs in applications work because
you use the program regularly and you know where
everything is -- it's essentially a shortcut
mechanism. If your site isn't aimed at getting
long-use, repeat traffic, and you don't have a whole
lot of areas on the site, then drop downs probably
hinder, as they take a while to explore and get used
to.

--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com



--- Universal Head <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I recently had a client who insisted I implement
> drop-down menus for 
> the navigation on their site, even though I gave
> them all the reasons 
> why I thought they were unnecessary in their case -
> and I was wondering 
> what the list's thoughts were on this method of
> navigation.
> 
> Personally think that in most cases they are
> unnecessary. I think a 
> well designed site should present information in a
> hierarchical 
> fashion, allowing the user to access more detailed
> info as they 
> progress into the site (while still keeping all
> parts of the site 
> quickly accessible in two or three clicks).
> 
> I think the opposite approach, of making every
> section and subsection 
> available from the homepage via drop-down menus, has
> the opposite 
> effect to what is intended by confusing the user
> with masses of choices 
> upfront.
> 
> What do y'all think?
> Peter
> 
> Universal Head 
> Design That Works.
> 
> 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
> NSW 2048 Australia
> T (+612) 9517 1466
> F (+612) 9565 4747
> E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> W www.universalhead.com
> 


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[WSG] Melbourne WSG Meeting

[Cameron Adams]

Although it mightn't interest the whole list, let me
be the first one to congratulate everyone who was
involved with the Melbourne meeting, especially our
Sydney contingent and the organisers.  I wasn't sure
what to expect, but John's propensity to argue all
things CSS sparked off some great debate and the
experience was well worth it.

For anyone who hasn't been to a meeting or is thinking
of setting one up in your area, I'd urge you to do so;
it's a totally different (and better) experience than
trading e-mails online.

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com

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Re: [WSG] Open critique?

[Cameron Adams]

Forget CSS Vault, I already awarded it on Web
Standards Awards! :-]

http://www.webstandardsawards.com/

--
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W: www.themaninblue.com

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RE: [WSG] Debrief and thanks to Russ & Peter

[Cameron Adams]

Hmmm ... those photos are making me re-think going to
the Melbourne meeting ;o]

--
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W: www.themaninblue.com

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Re: [WSG] horizontal floated lists

[Cameron Adams]

Most of the time I "display: inline" the li's in a
horizontal menu.

--
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RE: [WSG] Image replace or ALT text?

[Cameron Adams]

There's an IR technique with text here:

http://levin.grundeis.net/files/20030809/alternatefir.html

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[WSG] Image replace or ALT text?

[Cameron Adams]

While reading a comment on Web Standards Awards:

http://www.webstandardsawards.com/previous/simple_thinking.html#comments

It reminded me as to a point I'd thought about
regarding background image replacement. Sure, using a
ul with visually hidden text and background images for
navigation is semantically correct, but wasn't it much
better in the old days when you used an actual image
with alt text and you knew what something was even
before it loaded. Especially important for navigation
items.

I'm aware of image replacement techniques that also
allow you to see text when the image isn't there, but
they seem very clumsy, so I'm asking whether the old
skool method's usability outweighs its unfashionable
unsemanticness.

--
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Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading...

[Cameron Adams]

When you say that www.fhm.lv is a "nice" css site,
what exactly do you mean Russ? :oP

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com

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Re: [WSG] Image floating question

[Cameron Adams]

Well, it's always going to float to the right of
whatever's containing it, so if the container is only
set to the browser width (100%) it'll collapse.

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Re: [WSG] Flowchart using CSS

[Cameron Adams]

I think it's impossible to do in HTML, there's no way
you can model the relationships.  You'd need to write
your own XML schema to fully encompass everything that
needs to be represented, then parse it through some
rendering system to make any decent sense out of it.

You have to draw a line somewhere between writing your
own application and just putting up an image.

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Re: [WSG] newbie discovers absolute positioning

[Cameron Adams]

Absolute positioning only works when you know the
*exact* height of the element you're positioning. Good
for positioning images, such as logos, but when they
contain text it's probably not a good way to go.
(especially in Mozilla, which does not re-calculate
absolutely positioned items when you change text
sizes)

--
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Re: [WSG] A few quick links...

[Cameron Adams]

That's probably the most interesting Zen Garden entry
I've seen. Something other than just styling of the
content.

--
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Re: [WSG] Background PNGs in IE/Win?

[Cameron Adams]

The gray box appears in IE when someone specifies an
alpha channel in the PNG -- IE can't handle the
transparency, so it renders a gray background. I
expect it would be the same with background images.

There's an IE 6 workaround to PNG transparency,
someone else will have to tell you about it though.

--
Cameron

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[WSG] Fun with CSS!

[Cameron Adams]

{text-align: bottom} got you down?

{background-color: #FF} making you feel blue?

Then have a game of SSCrabble -- the fun way to pass
the time with Web Standards! :o]

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/01/27/

--
Cameron

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Re: [WSG] Definition lists -- mid-weekly challenge

[Cameron Adams]

Can't be bothered trying it, but you could float the
image left, leave the other elements non-floated,
block, with left margins equal to the image width.

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com

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Re: [WSG] list-style-types

[Cameron Adams]

I just tried setting "vertical-align: middle" on an
li.

In IE6 it moves it moves the bullet more centrally, in
Mozilla and Opera it does nothing, but they're pretty
central anyway.

You can try all sorts of different values: baseline,
text-top, etc.

--
Cameron

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[WSG] [OT] Good web host? Mine broke.

[Cameron Adams]

Hi,

I was in the hunt for a good (cheap) web host.
Explanation and replies here:

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/01/21/

Thanks,
--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com

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Re: [WSG] entities

[Cameron Adams]

I believe that for quotes it's handy to use the
entities because you define proper opening and closing
quotes, instead of using the uni-directional default
as defined on the keyboard.

It's probably safest to use entities in all your text,
as then they have no way of conflicting with the
actual XHTML syntax.

... but I'm no web typography expert.

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com

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Re: [WSG] styling hr tags

[Cameron Adams]

I'm just thinking that a "separator" in document
structure is redundant -- at a structural level, each
section should be contained in its own area, be it a
,  or whatever enclosing form takes your
fancy.

Then, with such a structure, visually it is extremely
easy to delineate as a hr does: bottom-border or top-border.

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Re: [WSG] styling hr tags

[Cameron Adams]

I can never understand why  tags made it into the
XHTML spec, as they are pretty much presentation-only,
not structure.

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[WSG] Alternative liquid layout solution

[Cameron Adams]

If you've been following the recent debates over
fixed-width versus liquid layout, you might be
interested in a true liquid experiment I've put up:

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2003/12/22/

Regards,
--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com

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[WSG] Standards Award Site

[Cameron Adams]

Hi,

On this page:

http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2003/12/15/

I discuss my plans for a standards-based awards site. 
Anyone interested in helping or commenting can do so
via the page.

Regards,
--
Cameron

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[WSG] Re: px em pt ???

[Cameron Adams]

That article gives the worst advice I've seen.

Basically, they're saying that if someone wants to
resize the text on your web page, you shouldn't allow
them to because it will break your site, making it
illegible.

If a user wants to resize the text on your site, it is
because it is illegible to them in the first place;
increasing font size can only improve matters.  Better
that it breaks your design and they're able to see the
content, rather than them not being able to see it at
all.

By using px units, you lock many users into exactly
the font size specified (some browsers can resize px,
but not IE).  Using a relative unit, such as em or %
(I use em), allows users to resize text so they can
ACTUALLY SEE IT.  If you ask any reasonably
usability-oriented designer they will tell you to use
relative units (www.stopdesign.com | www.zeldman.com),
and to code your web page structure to allow for
variable text sizes.

Hope this helps (and it didn't seem like I was yelling
at you), 
--
Cameron Adams

W: www.themaninblue.com


In reply to:

(aayyy, my third post today?) 

I'd like to see what all of yours opinion is on what
to use for sizes, I have always been a believer to
stick to pixels, because that is the only size that to
me sounds as something that is not platform/OS bound.

Anyway, I also found the following article to back
this up, who wants to break it down? 
 
Using CSS (cascading style sheets) makes it easy to
specify font sizes, but before you set a font size you
should be aware that it could change the layout of
your site considerably. Different browsers interpret
font sizes differently, so a font that appears
readable in Microsoft Internet Explorer may be smaller
when viewed in Netscape. In addition, font sizes on
Windows systems are not always the same as they are on
other platforms. Your site may look great to Windows
users, but it may be illegible to those using a Mac.

There is much controversy in relationship to font-size
specifications. Our advice is the same as the majority
of long-time designers. When you specify a font size,
specify it in pixels (px) not points (pt) or em. Using
a pt or em font-size property instead of px allows for
your site text to be resized according to the viewer's
system settings. If their system is set to view very
large text, your web site's layout will become
distorted and your web site may be illegible to them.

Also, be very careful not to set your font-size pixels
too small. Some folks may not be able to read tiny
text and adjusting their system text size will have no
effect on your site because your font-size is
specified as px. There truly is a happy medium in any
situation and the font-size (ie. 12px) will vary
depending on the font-family (ie. Arial, Times New
Roman, etc.) you use. 

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[WSG] Do XHTML/CSS web site awards exist?

[Cameron Adams]

Web site awards sites now are so cluttered with the
latest piece of Flash fluff -- style over design.  Are
there any XHTML/CSS equivalents that reward the proper
design of web sites?

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[WSG] Hi! www.themaninblue.com

[Cameron Adams]

Hi,

I was directed to this group by Andrew Fernandez
(www.dezwozhere.com) after he visited my new XHTML/CSS
site, www.themaninblue.com.

So ... u ... hi.  Looking forward to getting all
standardsy with some locals, instead of reading all
those US blogs.

--
Cameron Adams

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