Re: [WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an accessability issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an document: accessability issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] wasdlapcew...@fs.fed.us received by: at:10/21/2009 08:20:47 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] my site
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] my site document: wasdlapcew...@fs.fed.us received by: at:09/16/2009 07:33:08 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] my site
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] my site document: wasdlapcew...@fs.fed.us received by: at:09/15/2009 08:15:24 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] accessibility: government
In the USA, federal government web sites, and those web sites were federal tax dollars are involved, are subject to accessibility requirements of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended. This is more commonly known as Section 508 --- http://www.section508.gov/ Many state governments and public educational institutions have incorporated the federal Section 508 requirements within their state laws for state supported sites. There is no direct requirement for non-federal government commercial and private web sites to follow Section 508. However, the recent target.com court case out of California used that state's laws and the federal Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA - http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/ada.html) as the basis for an accessibility lawsuit later settled out of court. I cannot help you with state- or local-level web accessibility laws. Dennis Luc l...@dzinelabs.com Sent by: li...@webstandardsgroup.org 08/26/2009 11:45 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject [WSG] accessibility: government Good afternoon list, Does anybody know if their exists a list of what is required in terms of accessibility features for each country (governments)? -- Regards, Luc _ http://www.dzinelabs.com Using the best e-mail client: The Bat! version 4.2.6 with Windows XP (build 2600), version 5.1 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera. Xerox never comes up with anything original. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How Important Is Web Accessibility?
For some of us, web accessibility is the law. More importantly, it's the right thing to do. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible websites
Dennis Lapcewich wrote: While I agree with your general sentiment, I have to say I find the assertion that all people aged 35-40 or more are for all intents and purposes [...] web disabled and [...] in immediate need of web accessibility questionable, to say the least. I did not write the above. Please do not attribute to me another's comments in this accessibility thread. Please make sure you attribute correctly so as to avoid a misquote, at best, or disingenuous intent, at worst. My original comment concerned itself with a medical condition that in time, literally affects 100 percent of the human population. While onset of presbyopia is often described in the literature in the 40s and later, it is not unheard of to have symptoms beginning at age 35-40. A physical inability to focus on near objects is a legitimate disability. Bear in mind that addressing web accessibility is not as simple as reviewing server stats or talking with a few folks and deciding accordingly. Web accessibility is a human condition life change that will eventually affect everyone. Whatever technical approaches a web developer chooses to implement still remains with the developer, for now. Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster DRM Civil Rights POC Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360.891.5024 - Voice | 360.891.5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- George Bernard Shaw ??where conflicting interests must be reconciled, the question will always be decided from the standpoint of the greatest good of the greatest number in the long run.? --Gifford Pinchot, Chief Forester, 1905 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible websites (was: accessible free web hosting account)
While I agree with your general sentiment, I have to say I find the assertion that all people aged 35-40 or more are for all intents and purposes [...] web disabled and [...] in immediate need of web accessibility questionable, to say the least. I'd be careful of overstating the case like this, as it can undermine the whole argument. The technical term is presbyopia, a physical inability of the lens of the eye to focus properly. Specifically, the lens loses its elasticity and ability to properly focus on near objects. It is a natural course of aging. Onset is often between the ages of 40-50, however, it has been seen at earlier ages. In web terms, one's ability to obtain information from computer monitors (web pages) will decrease as one ages, without correction. The normal method of correction is bifocal lenses, even trifocal lenses in some cases. As pointed out in another email in this thread, taking advantage of a browser's magnifications abilities through accessibility coding techniques is an excellent example to address this. It's rather difficult to overstate the issue when over the course of time, presbyopia is pretty much 100 percent universal within the human population. Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster DRM Civil Rights POC Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360.891.5024 - Voice | 360.891.5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- George Bernard Shaw ??where conflicting interests must be reconciled, the question will always be decided from the standpoint of the greatest good of the greatest number in the long run.? --Gifford Pinchot, Chief Forester, 1905 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[Spam] :RE: [WSG] Accessible websites (was: accessible free web hosting account)
If you are unsure that web accessibility should play a role, take this test. In a group of people have everyone stand up. Those who are unable to stand may remain seated. Now pose these three requests, in order: 1) If you are wear glasses, contacts and/or have had corrective eye surgery, please sit down. 2) Of those who remain standing, if you know for a fact you are color-blind, please sit down. 3) Of those who now remain standing, everyone aged 35-40 or more, please sit down. Those who are left standing have little to no immediate need for web accessibility, but they will in time. Of those who sat down, while many (most?) may not meet a legal definition as being disabled, for all intents and purposes they are web disabled and are in immediate need of web accessibility. I average 80 percent or more end up sitting down every time I perform this test. The short three question test is not scientific. It is not technically accurate. But as an illustrative tool to raise accessibility awareness, it is 100 percent effective. Here in the USA, 20 percent of the population is disabled. That's sixty million people. Many of these disabilities have no connection with web accessibility. If you believe web accessibility provides no revenue return for a site owner, think again. Those who possess the wealth and spend the money are those who are sitting down. They are the ones that vote. It only took one blind person in California to bring down target.com, using a law not written to address web accessibility. Accessibility is not about the law. It's about doing the right thing. And when it comes to web accessibility, everyone at some point will be a disabled web user. Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster DRM Civil Rights POC Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360.891.5024 - Voice | 360.891.5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- George Bernard Shaw ??where conflicting interests must be reconciled, the question will always be decided from the standpoint of the greatest good of the greatest number in the long run.? --Gifford Pinchot, Chief Forester, 1905 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ...
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ... document: wasdlapcew...@fs.fed.us received by: at:04/06/2009 12:57:36 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
And for those of you with legal requirements to use or avoid certain features?great! Use them as you will! But don?t criticize others who take a more practical approach and aren?t enslaved by the legal requirements which chain you down. I don't believe that legal requirements providing equity of access to all are a problem at all. In fact just the opposite. It's a delightful challenge to work with standards and legal requirements so that anyone is able to access web content without being hindered by artificial barriers and constraints. While my legal requirements are specific, other laws are now being attributed to all web sites here in the US. The recent Target case was a rather expensive $6 million learning exercise for that company and may have established a precedent for all (commercial) web sites in the US. We will have to wait and see. Apparently Virgin Blue in Australia is embroiled in its own problems with respect to standards and accessibility. That case could go either way and also establish a precedent for web sites based in Australia. In many ways the approach is similar to the old Fram oil commercials that used to run on TV here in the States (You can pay me now or pay me later.) Designing and building according to standards is more cost-effective in the long run. It's a best practice. It's good for business. And yes, as already demonstrated in this thread, one must be cognizant that not every web professional is able to effectively exercise their professional judgement when it comes to standards. Being able to pay the rent and put food on the table is pretty strong incentive to just put one's head down and do the job. At the same time the challenge for web standards is being addressed where that unfair burden does not exist. You just don?t realize it, but you?re enslaved more by your ?company? than I will *ever* be. I fail to understand that doing the right thing for the greatest good could ever been seen as enslavement. Removing artificial barriers has never been a form of enslavement in my book. Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- George Bernard Shaw *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
While the concept may appear sound at first glance, it's based on a false, misleading and dishonest premise. The simple process of adding a favorites link on a web page is a proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company. While on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and its creator. Web developers sought to develop similar code so that the function would work in other browsers such as Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc., with no appreciable success. The mere name favorites should have been the clue since that term is also proprietary to that single browser. The actual industry term is bookmark. On the other hand, RSS feeds and links, Subscribe to my RSS feed .. is an industry term using code accessible to all browsers. While created by a proprietary development group, its growth and development was more of an open standards approach. It eventually became an industry standard and it works in all browsers. Comparing favorites to RSS is unfair. It is comparing fish to bicycles, in more ways than one. The former smells in a relatively short period of time (and may contain chemicals not conducive to good health) while the latter will actually take you somewhere that you may choose to go, and you will feel better, too. Perhaps the analogy also applies to each function's pedigree as well. Standards are about equity of access. While some may be inclined to include a favorites link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as well. Still, some may not care. However, for those of us with legal requirements to provide equity of access regardless of the method, use of a favorites link is an implied endorsement of a particular tool from a particular manufacturer, and that is a big no no. It is a denial of access to others who do not live in a company town, who do not live in a company house, who do not buy from the company store and who do not respond to every query with, Yes, Sir! May I have another, Sir! Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- George Bernard Shaw Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com Sent by: li...@webstandardsgroup.org 03/25/2009 02:48 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject RE: [WSG] add to favorites? Spend a little time on Google searching internet marketing call to action bookmark this page and you'll get a ton of info on the subject and you'll see many other examples that are similar to bookmarking, such as Subscribe to my RSS feed... even though there is a button right on the page already. These types of call-to-action are typically scattered throughout a page's content and are considered critical for successful marketing. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? The argument continues to be shaky at best. ...compel a user... in particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of the web as a medium. I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used feature? I would guess that the answer is no in both cases - but by all means prove me wrong! Andrew On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote: As was mentioned, it's a call to action. Those who are familiar with marketing will understand this concept. Also, it a user-friendly way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without jumping through the hoops the browsers require. It's the same principle as putting Call us today at 918-878-8787 for more info. Instead of just putting 918-878-8787. Rick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
The ultimate failure is being offered to do a job initially, only to inform the customer their plan as written is unworkable from the get go. They find someone else to build it according to their plan, only to be approached months down the road to fix something. It turns out that others in between tried and got nowhere. It comes full circle with what was built but would never work, and they want you to fix it, something you initially turned down. It can't be fixed. Oh, yeah. It was all paid for with your tax dollars. Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- George Bernard Shaw *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements document: that have no height declared wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:11/25/2008 10:56:38 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from?
Return Receipt Your RE: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from? document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:11/05/2008 13:41:14 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
R: [WSG] Accessible and cross browser online slide system
Return Receipt Your R: [WSG] Accessible and cross browser online slide system document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:10/22/2008 09:11:15 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Accessible and cross browser online slide system
Return Receipt Your [WSG] Accessible and cross browser online slide system document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:10/21/2008 12:51:17 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility Help
Because it's HTML it's accessible. Ah, no, not always. If a web user has a cognitive disability, requiring them to perform a math function (cognitive ability) may be another accessibility barrier itself. YMMV, of course, depending upon the accessibility standard you wish to achieve, or you may be required to achieve under the law. Dennis Lapcewich USDA Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- Anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 09/04/2008 08:29:30 PM: Hey, I saw a funny one once. A site had a really basic math problem. Like 4x2 or something. Type in the answer and you submitted the form. Because it's HTML it's accessible. IceKat. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:08/28/2008 08:11:47 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acceptable autoplay of music
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] Acceptable autoplay of music document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:08/15/2008 08:06:27 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Acceptable autoplay of music
IMHO, an unacceptable autoplay web site: ** AutoPlay Loud Music Warning! Turn DOWN your speakers! ** http://www.daveclarkfive.com ** AutoPlay Loud Music Warning! Turn DOWN your speakers! ** Dennis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
R: [WSG] Re: ARIA
Return Receipt Your R: [WSG] Re: ARIA document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:08/11/2008 12:38:32 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] ADA Compliant Flash
Clarification. Section 508 and ADA are about as different as fishes and bicycles in intent, direction, scope and application. Section 508 is part of Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended. It only applies to US Government web sites and those sites built/maintained with (US) federal tax dollars. ADA is shorthand for the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, as amended. The prevailing point of view (until recently) is ADA has nothing to do with the web. However the Target.com court case and other (US) state thoughts are that ADA applies to all web sites within its jurisdiction. Time will tell on this point. Dennis Lapcewich USDA Forest Service Webmaster DRM Civil Rights POC R6 Web Accessibility Monitoring Program Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- Anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 07/07/2008 09:10:49 AM: If ADA requires compliance with Section 508 (and I am not sure if it does), then you would need to provide the content in an alternative, accessible format regardless of how accessible the Flash version is. My reasoning is thus: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
R: [WSG] Javascript help with Reg Exp required please
Return Receipt Your R: [WSG] Javascript help with Reg Exp required please document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:06/02/2008 11:36:00 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Best way to hide form legends?
I've got a search box and login area that I want to use a fieldset and legend on for accessibility but I don't want to show the legend to normal users. I'm sorry but what is a normal user? Dennis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Best way to hide form legends?
I figured that was what you meant. At the same time, it can be a dangerous assumption. For example, by the time an individual starts kicking at 40 years old, changes to the eyes occur. It's called presbyopia. It's a normal course of aging that literally affects 100 percent of people at some time in their lives as they age. Add into the mix that populations in general are aging, online populations include people of all ages and more and more older folks. So for all intents and purposes, addressing the needs of normal users includes accessibility as a normal course of doing business for site owners and those who manage those web sites. The real problem is convincing the site owners that accessibility is good business and does provide tangible and intangible benefits. I guess it all boils down to whether you want to be dragged kicking in screaming into reality (and possibly pay the costs for such short-sightedness) or accept life for what it is and address accessibility for what we all will experience to some degree. I choose the latter, regardless of the fact it's required by law for me. Dennis By that I meant someone who sees and interacts with the website in the most common way. Seeing the page, viewing it with CSS images on, using a mouse etc. The user most people design their sites for. I've got a search box and login area that I want to use a fieldset and legend on for accessibility but I don't want to show the legend to normal users. I'm sorry but what is a normal user? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available
Return Receipt Your RE: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:03/21/2008 14:27:52 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available
Return Receipt Your RE: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:03/21/2008 14:27:50 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accessible calendars? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] accessible calendars? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:10/26/2007 12:17:39 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities
For colleges and universities based in the USA, you might want to look at your respective state laws with respect web accessibility. Some states are either incorporating the federal Section 508 accessibility law for all state (supported) web sites, or are writing their own state web accessibility laws to mirror the federal law. In either case, if you attend a college or university in one of those states, and that institution receives federal education funding, you might want to politely bring it up with your web instructor. It would be rather disingenuous for a web instructor to not teach according to web standards and accessibility requirements, when their employer's web site (the college or university web site) probably comes under the state law jurisdiction with respect to W3C and accessibility standards as required by that state's laws. Dennis Lapcewich USDA Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- Anonymous *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
That's not what Target are saying. It's like a deaf person comes into their store and requests for assistance but no one speaks the sign language and he can't lip read. Is it discrimination not to have a sign-speaking person in your store just in case a deaf personcomes in? You analogy is incorrect. There are two concepts at work here, reasonable accommodation and undue hardship. Although both concepts apply to actual employment, they can serve as an educational basis for education and enlightenment in this thread. You can read about them here --- http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/accommodation.html Requiring a sign speaker to be employed at every Target store would impose an undue hardship upon the company, especially if statistics prove the customer base of deaf customers requiring such assistance is effectively nonexistent. There could very well be isolated cases, however, where it would make sense, if not required. For example, if a Target store were located near Gallaudet University (http://www.gallaudet.edu/x266.xml) it would make sense to not only offer such services, but outreach to employ deaf people for their deaf customers. Then again, creating and maintaining a commercial web site effectively expands the potential customer base to where it is quite reasonable to assume that a fair number of potential customers are disabled and accommodation for their disabilities not only makes sense, but is warranted. On the other hand, Target is hard-pressed to prove that offering an accessible web site is not reasonable accommodation for any of their customers (including disabled customers), let alone pose an undue hardship upon the company to maintain such a site. On the contrary, the tools, techniques and expertise are readily available to do that no added cost as part of regular site maintenance. From a purely technical perspective, IMHO, there is no defense that Target (or any other large company) can make that they cannot design/build/maintain an accessible web site where doing so would impose an undue burden upon the company. (More importantly, under the concept of undue burden, a large employer cannot claim cost as a mitigating factor when it comes to making a reasonable accommodation. Target had earnings in excess of US$59 billion in 2006.) In fact, based on maturity of the web environment these days, any company with a web site (including traditional mom and pop businesses), or desiring one, would be hard pressed to make a claim of undue burden they cannot have their web site built/maintained according to web standards, including web accessibility as defined within those standards. If that means a fair number of these web building companies (including one person outfits) need to lift their game, or get out of the web business, then that's the cost of doing business in a free marketplace. It doesn't sound right. Why should anyone be forced to do the right thing? You can't force anyone to be nice, generous and good-natured, you can only encourage that. Forcing people to do the right thing is wrong. Actually, you can, and it happens every day. Laws and regulations are enacted all the time to impact upon and change personal behavior. It's been that way throughout human history, first as families then expanding into larger society as social norms and graces. And when that proved insufficient as societies matured, governments and laws. You may claim a person has the right to get drunk and act like an idiot (which they do), but society deemed long ago that such egregious behavior in public is not in society's best interest, nor that individual. More so, when the behavior of that individual has a negative impact upon innocent people (think drunk drivers). It seems to me the real issue here is ignorance of life these days, with respect to others who are perceived to be not like you. Just because someone is different is too often a misguided and immature excuse to exclude them from being treated equally and on their merits. We even have words for the two most pronounced of these attitudes and behaviors, racism and sexism. Individuals and companies will always take the easy way out here, unless society at large says this is wrong. Target is wrong. Dennis Lapcewich USDA Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- Anonymous
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
A private company should be able to do whatever the hell they like. Suit is without merit and frivolous. What's next, suing vehicle manufacturers for not providing a braille manual? I'm all for accesability, but there is no reason it should be mandated, and lack of is in no was discriminatory. Your analogy makes no sense, unless you think the state should be required to grant a drivers license to Ray Charles. OTOH, vehicle manufacturers are required to follow various safety regulations, the purpose of which is not so much to protect the idiot driver from his own incompetence and stupidity, but to protect innocent people from the occasional incompetent and stupid driver. The Target lawsuit is based on the Americans with Disabilities Act. According to Wikipedia, Title III of ADA says, no individual may be discriminated against on the basis of disability with regards to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation. Public accommodations include most places of lodging (such as inns and hotels), recreation, transportation, education, and dining, along with stores, care providers, and places of public displays, among other things. In other words, it's illegal to discriminate against 20 percent of the US population (that's 60 million people) who have some sort of disability preventing them from enjoying public accommodation as anyone else. The lawsuit is arguing that public accommodation also applies to private (commercial) web sites, in addition to brick and mortar operations. If you truly are for accessibility, I'm sure you don't complain about the wheelchair ramps at crosswalks, the disability buttons at building entrances, and the extra-large private toilet blocks everywhere else, to name just a few. None of these features negatively impact the able-bodied person one bit. On the contrary, wheelchair ramps at crosswalks are seen to have hidden benefits for non-disabled people as well. All require considerable sums of money to install and maintain. Yet applying that same standard to web sites is not applicable here? Disability does not mean seclusion. In fact, disabled people wield considerable consumer buying power on their own, let alone influence others and their consumer spending. Or, put it this way. Considering Mac users account for a single digit percentage of all computers connected to the Internet, why even cater to them, let alone acknowledge their existence? If you believe that then here's hoping your life insurance is fully paid up. Mac influence with respect to the Internet, if not the greater world, is greatly disproportionate to their numbers, practically all of it for the better of all of us. Or do you firmly believe Zune beats iPod hands down? :) Web accessibility is not an addon issue. Web accessibility is not an additional expense. Web accessibility makes good business sense. Most importantly, web accessibility is the right thing to do. And the final twist is that everyone, *everyone,* who uses the Internet for whatever reason, will someday require accessible assistance when it comes to using the Internet. Dennis Lapcewich USDA Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- Anonymous *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 06/07/2007 08:04:01 AM: Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I'm curious. Has the marketing agency ever been questioned as to *why* the web content should be converted from HTML to PDFs? What are the business reasons for the recommendation? What are the usability reasons for this recommendation? Is there an ultimate cost savings in creation and maintenance of the site by using PDFs for the majority of the content? Will there be an improvement in accessibility for web users by converting the content to PDFs? What about those web users who may not have a PDF reader installed on their computers? (Yes, this last question may seem nutty but how times have their been discussions about web users who deliberately disable Flash content for whatever reasons? The concept could be the same for folks who disable PDF access as well.) Has the marketing company offered cost savings in providing the web content as PDFs instead of HTML? Have they compared costs when it comes taking content and publishing it as accessible HTML vs creating an accessible content (say in Word or some other accessible document) and converting that to an accessible PDF for publication on the site? Will there be a consistency in making sure all the accessible PDFs are created using the exact same methods and procedures? It sounds to me that the marketing agency is pushing marketing hype for its own benefit and not creating and easy to use, and accessible content by following the KISS Principle. Dennis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommended screen size
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[WSG] handling accessible form
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RE: [WSG] equal height columns
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RE: [WSG] equal height columns
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RE: [WSG] equal height columns
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Re: [WSG] site check - almost ready for prime time - IE weirdness
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] site check - almost ready for prime time - IE document: weirdness wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:03/21/2007 08:21:22 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re:[WSG] Usability issue with form help
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Re:[WSG] how important are validation-programs?
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RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Nic, Whoops! I missed that subtle distinction between the ADA and the Rehab Act. It's been a rough week. Slap me with a blink tag. In any case, I really would like to see a Section 508 (or ADA) case here in the States brought against a private company. The law itself needs a court challenge to test its validity and its viability with respect to electronic accessibility. Only then can we as web developers have any teeth with web standards, including accessibility. At the same time, a successful court case in favor of Section 508 (or ADA) would have repercussions much wider than many may realize. Can you imagine how some big web clients would react to find out their sites are not accessible after their high profile web developers assured them they were? We've already seen on this list a discussion about such a firm and their code on some big name sites. Cheers, I hope my long mail hasn't bored you to tears Oh, no way! It's refreshing to read here about the (potential) ramifications of the code we create. Any honest discussions of web standards needs to have regular doses of real-world effects of that code. Dennis Nic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: To [EMAIL PROTECTED] wsg@webstandardsgroup.org rdsgroup.org cc Subject 02/09/2006 11:07 RE: [WSG] Target sued over AMnon-accessible site Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] roup.org Dennis, thanks for that link, an interesting opinion, and one that flies in the face of several court cases throughout the US (in particular Florida a few years ago) The New York State Attorney General offered a legal opinion that all web site originating within that state are subject to Section 508 of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act I read that and I thought huh? That can't be right. And reading the page on the link provided, it turns out that statement isn't quite right. The NY State AG said that the Americans With Disabilities Act requires that private web sites be accessible to blind and visually impaired Internet users. Two things of note here: First, it is the ADA that is cited, NOT Section 508 of the US Vocational Rehabilitation Act. Section 508 is NOT applicable as the VRA applies soleley to US Federal agencies (and some organisations funded primarely with federal money, such as some universities), it always has, and always will. This is an important distinction, because the ADA does not mention anywhere in its text that it covers access to the internet (It was written pre-1990 and signed on July 26, 1992). Therefore, to state that the ADA applies also to companies doing business over the internet is a point that can be argued. In fact, while it seems logical that it *should* apply, that very argument has been used several times to lose court cases and make bad precedents (I don't have time to dig my archives for references, but if anyone's interested, I'll be pleased to do so). -- snip -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Site Critic
Return Receipt Your RE: [WSG] Site Critic document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:12/20/2005 12:28:39 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Whither IE for the Mac
Microsoft is officially halting distribution of Internet Explorer for the Mac at the end of next month. You'll probably want to archive a copy or two now for testing purposes, as well as to use with sites like the Proximus wireless access point at Javapolis last week that wouldn't let anybody in unless they were using IE. This had more than a little to do with the silence of my sites over the last week, as well as the paucity of reports from what was a quite interesting show for those who were there. Poor wireless access (the IE requirement was not the only problem) meant relatively few people were able to chat about or report from the show in real time. Putting such blatantly bad design on display in front of an audience of 2000 alpha geeks, almost every one of whom could probably explain in intimate detail exactly what Proximus did wrong, is not exactly the smartest viral marketing a company might do. In fact, that's an idea. Next year let's do a reverse keynote where the CEO and CTO of Proximus have to stand in front of the convention and listen to everyone in the audience tell them how to fix their broken system. It used to be that only internal users suffered through such brain damage and poor design; but with web apps everyone gets to see just how incompetent your team really is. Hmm, there's another idea. How about a mutual fund that makes investment decisions by analyzing a company's public web applications to figure out which companies hire the pointy-haired and which don't? Source: http://www.ibiblio.org/xml/ M$ Source: http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/internetexplorer/internetexplorer.aspx?pid=internetexplorer ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Site Critic
Return Receipt Your [WSG] Site Critic document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:12/16/2005 11:19:09 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Page Check: www.qm-consulting.co.uk/test/indextest
Return Receipt Your RE: [WSG] Page Check: www.qm-consulting.co.uk/test/indextest document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:11/04/2005 16:01:06 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Table grid to CSS Grid
No. You are mixing apples and bicycles. Tableless layout refers to the *page design.* Within a tableless *page* layout, the tabular content should be in a table. Dennis Helmut Granda [EMAIL PROTECTED] udios.com To Sent by: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc rdsgroup.org Subject RE: [WSG] Table grid to CSS Grid 10/07/2005 11:08 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] roup.org Thanks for your feedback guys. So those who insist in creating table-less layouts can not be done so all the time, there are times when you HAVE to use tables or it wont work. Would that statement be correct? Is it even wroth it to fight to transform that kind of content into table-less? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE - no javascript
Return Receipt Your RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE - no javascript document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:08/31/2005 08:02:16 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE - no javascript
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RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE - no javascript
Return Receipt Your RE: [WSG] Fix for min-max in IE - no javascript document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:08/31/2005 08:02:21 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing
blink
Whut was that? :)
/blink
Edward Clarke
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent by: To
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
rdsgroup.org cc
Subject
07/20/2005 08:37 RE: [WSG] Two questions: SEO
AMdocument structure and font
resizing
Please respond to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
roup.org
I would like to assume that if anyone fell for that, someone would give
them a slap. ;)
Edward Clarke
ECommerce and Software Consultant
TN38 Consulting
http://blog.tn38.net
Creative Media Centre
17-19 Robertson Street
Hastings
East Sussex
TN34 1HL
United Kingdom
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Drake, Ted C.
Sent: 20 July 2005 16:20
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing
Wasn't the original css ( * html body {display;none;} ) meant as a joke to
hide all content from IE users?
I would simply hate to see someone plop that into their code and scratch
their head for the next hour trying to figure out what went wrong.
Ted
what does body{display:none;} do for SEO? then the answer is not very
much.
Taking Googlebot and Slurp as examples, they don't parse CSS or script,
they want content within the HTML and that's it. Most hidden elements, i.e.
white text on white background or display: none; for example contain spammy
keywords which will be parsed and ignored as appropriate.
Rule: write grammatically correct and verbose content and them search
engines will lap it up, regardless of how you present it. That's my
experience anyway.
--
Eddie.
http://blog.tn38.net/
And what this mean for SEO
body, html {display: none!important;} ?
On 6/1/05, David Laakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
body, html {display: none!important;}
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Prototype Framework
See http://openrico.org/home.page for applications based on it. Bret Lester [EMAIL PROTECTED] a.com To Sent by: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc rdsgroup.org Subject RE: [WSG] Prototype Framework 07/14/2005 05:21 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] roup.org Has anyone checked out the JavaScript Prototype framework? http://prototype.conio.net/ Are there any good resources around that explain how it works? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Longhorn Avalon - seismic shift for web standards?
My whole point is... why bother? Why spend the massive amount of time (and therefore 'the peoples' money) making it work across all these technologies when practically everyone who is using it has access to IE. Given a choice, would you rather drive on a gravel road with a vehicle using square rims and steel wheels just because the manufacturer says so, or would you want your vehicle to have round rims with rubber tires as required by industry standards? :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure?
Let us not forget that the web is a totally different medium that a printed document.While actual web presentation and structure has its origins in the printed world, we talking a different puppy with a different set of human needs and interactions with the same content. The brain perceives and interprets web page content differently than a printed document. For example, content from a printed document is perceived via reflected light. Web content itself is the light. (Oh, wait. Oh, never mind!) User can scan, read and go back and forth with a printed document. They can do the same thing with web content, to a point. The resulting physical and psychological barriers bother many people. Is it any wonder that printed content ported over to the web should be reduced by fifty percent, and executive summaries with dot point items rule the roost? We can debate and argue the finer points of coding, structure and presentation all we want with respect to the web. Let's just not forget many of us prefer a printed copy manual over any sort of on-line web content any day of the week, for a variety of legitimate and inane reasons. Our web customers make the same discerning decisions when it comes to the web as well. Most are just not aware of the decisions they make with their own web experiences. Dennis Lapcewich USDA Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- Anonymous ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Page structure - navigation
Ask your client ... What is more important to you, getting a high ranking on a search engine so potential customers (who may or may not become a real customer) are able to find the site, or keeping the customers you already have by offering site navigation that is easy to locate and use? Your question is not a web technical issue. It's a basic common sense business issue. Anyone who has passed Marketing 101 should know that keeping the customers you have, and keeping them happy is a Prime Directive. It's ten times harder to bring back a customer you had but lost, rather than find a new customer. Technically you can have both by absolute positioning. The actual navigation content sits at the bottom of the page, but CSS places it at the top of the rendered page. I have a client who insists making me place the site's navigation at the bottom of the page structure and than positioning it at the top via CSS. His reasons of doing this is for search engine optimisation? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WSG Meetings for the rest of us
I would love to be back in OZ and attend a SYD or MEL meeting but there is this pond in the way. :) Dennis Lapcewich USDA Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- Anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED] edu.au Sent by: To [EMAIL PROTECTED] wsg@webstandardsgroup.org rdsgroup.org cc Subject 06/08/2005 09:29 RE: [WSG] WSG Meetings for the PMrest of us Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] roup.org Hey don't forget us folks up in Darwin, we may be in Australia but we are still miles away! A webcast or streaming video would be great. Cheers *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer Teaching Learning Development Group Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** Adam Burmister (DSL AK) To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: acom.co.nzSubject: RE: [WSG] WSG Meetings for the rest of us Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] sgroup.org 09/06/2005 12:54 PM Please respond to wsg Somebody should webcast the live event. I'd love to attend in person, but I'm stuck in Auckland :( (Damn cold too)! Adam -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kazuhito Kidachi Sent: Thursday, 9 June 2005 3:17 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WSG Meetings for the rest of us 2005/6/9, Cole Kuryakin - x7m [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Man, oh man, would I love to attend some (pretty much all) of the meetings, seminars and discussions being hosted/held by WSG - but they seem to all be in Sydney. Me too. I'm in Japan and I can understand what you feel. So, if some resources like slides or short minutes are available for each meeting, all of the rest of us would be happy, I believe. BTW, now some people living in Tokyo are thinking about planning local meeting as a part of WSG. So my question is, how to setup such a local meeting. Is it only inputting time/place info on the WSG site? Australia, Philippines and Japan are located in almost same time zone. In future, we may share the same experience at the same time. It's just my thought. Kazuhito -- Kazuhito Kidachi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail
