Re: [WSG] IE 7 check please

2007-10-14 Thread Donna Jones

For http://www.thinkvitamin.com/ -
This site has a scrollbar in IE7 around 884px. It appears that this is
caused by the footer. In FireFox it just ignores that the right  
portion of
the footer is being chopped off and doesn't give you a scrollbar  but 
as soon

as the footer content doesn't fit in IE7 the scroll bar appears.



I didn't noticed that the content in footer being chopped off, but  yes, 
this is what I was trying to determine whether IE 7 has issue  with 
elastic + fluid layout (is there a name for such layout?), or  other 
browsers that got the words chopped off is wrong.


I made the screenshots for Firefox in  Mac and PC, and IE 6 Vs IE 7  
standalone.


http://lotusseedsdesign.com/ff.png
http://lotusseedsdesign.com/ie.png - you can clearly see IE 7 has  
scollbar at 800px and the reason for it is footer text.


Tee, i just looked more at the http://www.thinkvitamin.com/ site.

yes, i get the scroll bar at 800 wide in IE7 (not standalone).  and yes, 
its because its not chopping off the footer (wouldn't have noticed, 
probably, though if Kepler hadn't noticed and then you re-mentioned it). 
 In IE6 it doesn't chop off the footer and there is no scroll BUT its 
broken, the divisions don't line up right (they sorta fall all over the 
place).  In mozilla there is no scroll but the footer is chopped off. 
so, it seems like out of those three that IE7 is handling it best.  In 
mozilla, using Tidy, it says there are 136! warnings.  and , some in 
particular are missing division endings.  also, just noticed at 800 wide 
in mozilla the divisions overlap in a way that doesn't work well, at 
all.  i think someone needs to take a look at it!


cheers
Donna





I am trying to fix a similar layout that I submitted to  
accessites.org.  My layout initially was elastic and aimed  for 1024  
screen user, however they found horizontal scrollbar at 800px - 800px  
without horizontal scrollbar is one of the criteria. I wanted this be  
fixed, so I amended my layout to elastic + fluid like the above two  
sites, and I am getting some 70px scrollbar at 800px screen in my  
standalone IE 7, not IE 6. (no special treatment is served for IE 6/7  
for the outer wrap). At 800px screen in other browsers, no words  being 
chopped off though.


Thanks!

tee





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Re: [WSG] IE 7 check please

2007-10-14 Thread Donna Jones

Thanks Donna, thanks for checking.

I am not concerned how thinkvitamin has errors and warnings and text  
got chopped off because that is beyond my control but the owner of  the 


My quest is whether IE 7 has issue with elastic + fluid' layout, as  
shown on that two sites and mine.


hi Tee, yes, i knew you were using vitamin to evaluate the problem, what 
i should have said was that because of their errors, it didn't seem like 
you could figure out whether or not IE7 was doing something wrong.


Anyhow, I found the answer myself. In my layout I have an element  with 
background image, and I have a span class for image replacement.


h3 {url(image.png) no-repeat}
h3 span {position:absolute; text-indent: -3000px}

h3heading 3/h3

Apparently the position:absolute or the text-indent was causing that  
extra 70px white space in IE 7, thus resulting a horizontal  scrollbar. 
Note that 70px extra is there whether the screen is 800px  or 900px. 
it's just not noticeable with wider screen.


It goes away when I change the absolute to relative, or text-indent:  
-3000px to 'left: -3000px'


cool!  i'll try to remember this for when it comes up for me, who knows 
when.


donna



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Re: [WSG] pop-up - onblur question

2007-03-30 Thread Donna Jones

Seona:  Thanks!


I think he's suggesting something along these lines:

a href=mypage.html onclick=window.open(this.href);return false;Click
me/a

To break it down:


was able to do that, following your excellent information.  Much more 
comfortable having it set up like this and learned some, too.


Of course, if you wanted to be really clever about it (and more 
conscious of

keeping the presentation and behaviour layers separate) you'd write a
function that would attach this to the link without the need to have it
hard-coded in like this. All you'd do is create an href link as normal and
give it a class or id. That you'll need someone else to explain to you,
since I know how to borrow code to make this happen but don't fully
understand how it works. ;)


I feel clever enough for now!  thanks again!

best
donna


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Re: [WSG] pop-up - onblur question

2007-03-29 Thread Donna Jones

not sure why there would be trouble copy/pasting data, i don't have any
trouble selecting it.



Copy a bit. Paste it in another window. Go to copy another bit. Oh, its
gone.


oh!


Windows are not things that usually vanish because you give your
attention to something else for a moment, so this behaviour contradicts
user expectations.


yes, i can see that, even though its a very small piece of text, it 
could in theory be much larger.


so, i've decided to just take the onBluf off altogether - especially 
since discovering it doesn't work in IE (guess that speaks to my 
non-thorough testing).  whenever i see the word proprietary (that Tidy 
used) I assume it means proprietary unto IE - now if I wonder if its 
old netscape proprietary.



Dealing with that tiny window is something of a annoyance though,
especially at largish font sizes.


yes, i know.  but i did just increase the font size at least once and it
felt reasonable to me, not a lot of scrolling and, of course, its easy
to scroll down with the arrow/cursor keys.



Still a more scrolling then if it used the window the user provided
rather then trying to make its own.


well  yes.


* href=# - a link to the top of the page is a pretty poor fallback
should the JavaScript not run for any reason.


not sure what you're talking about here, i guess the link at the bottom,
but it does work without javascript.


No, the bio link itself, and it doesn't work without JavaScript. It just
links to the top of the page.


so, ended up trying to fix this but have no clue how to do it.



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Re: [WSG] pop-up - onblur question

2007-03-29 Thread Donna Jones

No, the bio link itself, and it doesn't work without JavaScript. It just
links to the top of the page.


so, ended up trying to fix this but have no clue how to do it.



Have the href attribute point at something sensible (not #). Have the
JavaScript do what you want, and return false from it to prevent the
link being followed.


i suppose i understand what you're saying but i don't know javascript, i 
don't know the syntax, so pretty impossible for me to implement.


cheers
donna



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Re: [WSG] pop-up - onblur question

2007-03-28 Thread Donna Jones



i've used onblur=window.close(); (in the body tag) to have the pop-up
close after it loses focus, but Tidy says, onblur is proprietary and
doesn't like it.  is there something i can use instead?



I'd suggest avoiding closing the window when it looses the focus
altogether. Last time I encountered something like that I couldn't make
use of the window at all - not everybody uses click-to-focus, and since
focus-follows-mouse caused windows between the mouse pointer and the
popup to gain the focus as the mouse travelled to the popup to gain the
focus as it passed over them, it wasn't possible to get from the link to
the window before it closed!


Hi David: thanks for your response.  I don't think I have the same 
circumstances you describe but not sure, would you mind looking at this 
page: 
http://www.mainehumanities.org/programs/litandmed/synapse/sym-temp/feature_s07.html# 



its the bio link.


I've pretty much decided to just take the onblur=window.close(); out 
altogether but it did seem to me a clean way of getting rid of an extra 
window, to just have it disappear and not to have to click on it to 
close it.  But probably most people would automatically click and 
maybe most keyboard users would do an alt F4 to close it.


It seems like most of the argument against using it, that i could find, 
was related to validating forms, and i'm not doing that.  Just wish I 
understood more about it all.  and i tried putting onFocus instead of 
onClick, to call the window, to see if I could duplicate what you were 
talking about and couldn't ...


thanks again.
Donna



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Re: [WSG] pop-up - onblur question

2007-03-28 Thread Donna Jones

Hi David: thanks for your response.  I don't think I have the same
circumstances you describe but not sure, would you mind looking at this
page:
http://www.mainehumanities.org/programs/litandmed/synapse/sym-temp/feature_s07.html#


Thanks again David:


It is the same circumstances as I described previously, although my
browser seems to have become smarter since I last ran across anyone
doing something like that and doesn't automatically give the window a
focus to lose when it opens now (of course, if I want to copy/paste data
from it, then I'm going to run into trouble no matter what techniques I
use to focus windows).


not sure why there would be trouble copy/pasting data, i don't have any 
trouble selecting it.



Dealing with that tiny window is something of a annoyance though,
especially at largish font sizes.


yes, i know.  but i did just increase the font size at least once and it 
felt reasonable to me, not a lot of scrolling and, of course, its easy 
to scroll down with the arrow/cursor keys.



* href=# - a link to the top of the page is a pretty poor fallback
should the JavaScript not run for any reason.


not sure what you're talking about here, i guess the link at the bottom, 
but it does work without javascript.



* onclick=javascript:something - javascript isn't a great name for a
label, and there isn't any loop here to label (that syntax does not mean
'this event handler is written in JavaScript').


i really don't understand this.  i didn't write the javascript, i really 
know nothing about it other than to copy and implement.  i would imagine 
the js i got for this (2 years ago) could be better, and i would hope i 
would get a better one if i was doing it now.  i thought asking such a 
simple question about the onblur would show that i was pretty ignorant 
vis a vis js.   i did buy Peter Paul Koch's new book recently, hoping to 
improve my js skills.  And, it was helpful reading the theory but his 
examples were beyond my following.



* The links in the site bar are the ultimate in mystery meat navigation.
http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html


yes, i know!  i didn't like them then, don't like them now.  was 
powerless to override the designer and client!  this is a small 
sub-piece of the main site.  the main site is up for re-design and i'm 
digging in my heals to get a standards compliant, accessible and 
reasonable design - wish me luck!


i still wish someone would tell me more why onblur to close the window 
is bad.  I know that pop-ups are sorta frowned upon and that was why i 
put it in the subject line, to say right off that i had a nasty pop-up 
question but i'm disappointed to not get more response.


cheers
donna


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[WSG] pop-up - onblur question

2007-03-27 Thread Donna Jones
hi everyone:  i have some pop-ups that are part of a fairly old design 
and have been working on updating the code as i go.


i've used onblur=window.close(); (in the body tag) to have the pop-up 
close after it loses focus, but Tidy says, onblur is proprietary and 
doesn't like it.  is there something i can use instead?


many thanks in advance. :)
Donna


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Re: [WSG] PopUp windows

2007-03-07 Thread Donna Jones

Steve Green wrote:

Last time I looked at various implementations of lightbox none were
accessible to the JAWS screen reader. I would be interested to know if
things have improved since then.

Steve


I think they're hard for people with mobility issues (aka keyboard 
users) too.  In checking out the first two that David sent, above, it 
wasn't easy to figure out how to close them.  Finally did happen upon 
it and both were different and not what I would have expected.  One 
closed with esc and the other you could get out of with backspace key 
or alt, arrow back.  someone on another list said that hers would close 
with hitting the X on the keyboard.  that gives three ways so far!


also don't like that the image doesn't gradually load, there is no way 
to tell how big it is (how long its going to take to load and should I 
just opt out) and its boring just looking at the loading graphic 
going around.  have been really irritated that browsercam is using this 
method but did figure out to turn off java script, just have to remember 
to turn it back on afterwards.


i don't have mobility issues but one reason i think that i don't, and 
i'm pretty old and use the computer a lot, is that i do *so much* stuff 
with the keyboard.  i can go a long time without touching the mouse and 
i do think its better - you're varying your actions much more with the 
keyboard.


my two cents,

cheers
donna


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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Donna Jones


Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site  cannot 
be used by the sightless.
... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will  realize 
how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this  nation and the 
growing baby-boomer population who will also be losing  vision, said 
plaintiff Bruce Sexton Jr., 24, a blind third-year  student at UC Berkeley.


Sexton, who is president of the California Association of Blind  
Students, said making Target's Web site accessible to the blind would  
also make it more navigable by those without vision problems



http://tinyurl.com/7ze7p
__


I'm happy to see this. thanks.

a question.  I just installed the extension Fangs on mozilla last night 
(i don't think its available for the latest Firefox version, yet). 
https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefoxcategory=Developer%20Toolsnumpg=10id=402 

hu. it doesn't say it will install on Mozilla, but visited with 
mozilla and it did - works fine.


does anyone have any opinion as to how accurate it is?  other users here?

cheers
Donna



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Re: [WSG] Dean Edwards IE7... just PNG support?

2005-12-27 Thread Donna Jones


Joshua Street wrote:


Hmm, thanks. Should learn to RTF... website... or something :P

HOWEVER! When I do that, IE6 with XPSP2 gives me security warnings and
blocks it by default... then, it kills my typography (though
positioning and image replacement and backgrounds all stay okay)
whilst doing absolutely for PNG support (aside from breaking
background-position: on one PNG-powered background image! but that's
documented so no problems)

Anyone else got security warnings from IE when loading individual
modules of DE-IE7? Or is it just me/draconian security settings here?


Hi Joshua: I haven't tried using just individual modules but when i use 
the whole thing I get the warning locally (very aggravating - and, of 
course, its an IE issue, nothing wrong with Edwards' stuff).  anyway, 
when its loaded on the web, i don't get the warnings - for me, and i 
assume, anyone else.



Can post example if desired...


i wonder if its different for individual modules though, somehow.  would 
like to see your example.


best
Donna


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Re: [WSG] Justify this

2005-12-14 Thread Donna Jones

Al Sparber wrote:


From: Paul Noone [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Well, I've been interested in the whole justified text issue for a 
while and
think Joshua raises an interesting point. I don't generally use it to 
style
paragraphs because I personally don't like its appearance but I wasn't 
aware

there were accessibility concerns.



If you're into justified text, the only browsers that can do a 
reasonable job are IE5.5x+ Windows, using a proprietary property. The 
programming is pretty darn good. It's nearly as good as the NY Times, 
actually. But it ain't standards and must be deployed via Conditional 
Comment. Take it and hide before somebody yells at us ;-)


!--[if lte IE 6]
style
p {
text-align: justify;
text-justify: newspaper;
}
/style
![endif]--



*smile* I'll take this justified txt, too!  I remember when you brought 
it up on another list, Al, and i thought it was quiet remarkable.  the 
only reason i haven't used it is because i hadn't thought of deploying 
with conditonal comments!


Thanks!

Donna







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Re: [WSG] Scrolling in IE5.5

2005-12-13 Thread Donna Jones
Hi Joe, i ck'd it with my standalone IE5.5 and IE5.1 and it showed with 
scroll bars and scrolled with the mouse.


donna


Joseph Lindsay wrote:


Hi folks,

I have an issue with IE5.5 (who doesn't?).  This page:
http://www.ermanz.govt.nz/no/newsletters/20051118.html displays
without scroll-bars, and wont scroll with a mouse wheel either.  It
does scroll with the keyboard.

I know the obvious fix is tell the users to get a modern browser, and
I will recommend this to the user.

Has anyone else come across this before?  Is there a fix?

While you're looking, are there any Mac browser issues?

Thanks

Joe
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[WSG] italic and validator

2005-12-11 Thread Donna Jones

okay, hi everyone:  a short question, i intend it to be, at least.

is i (italic) deprecated in xhtml?  and even better, could someone 
point me to a w3c page that talks about what is deprecated in xhtml?


and, second part of that, why does the validator validate it if it is 
deprecated.


many thanks

Donna
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Re: [WSG] italic and validator

2005-12-11 Thread Donna Jones

just want to say *thanks* you guys came through and fast!

my situation is working for an agency that wants/needs to italicize 
everything and their sister.  i have been using the i.  i've also been 
writing in html4.01 and actually plan on staying there.  But, for a 
drill i made a xhtml1.0 strict and it validated with the i.  I 
actually thought it probably was deprecated and someone else asked me 
about it and that made me look into it more.


i didn't know what to make of the fact that the validator validated it 
but i also know that the validator doesn't pick up all best practices, 
e.g. not putting dimensions on one's images isn't picked up (and we all 
know that's a good idea).


at any rate, in my circumstances i think it makes sense to use the i 
versus adding a whole span bit to the code.  That doesn't mean i don't 
also need to think about should it really be em  and stay aware of 
that.


also, really neat to get clear on the html4.01 specs following through 
in to xhtml 1.0.


anyway, thanks again!

Donna



Donna Jones wrote:


okay, hi everyone:  a short question, i intend it to be, at least.

is i (italic) deprecated in xhtml?  and even better, could someone 
point me to a w3c page that talks about what is deprecated in xhtml?


and, second part of that, why does the validator validate it if it is 
deprecated.


many thanks

Donna
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Re: [WSG] real xhtml - last question!

2005-12-08 Thread Donna Jones

Thanks for persuing this, i'm trying to understand, too.


designer wrote:

. . . before I go back to html 2.0!

But seriously, in my continuing quest to understand/get a feeling for mime types 
etc, I've made two files now :  thearea.html and thearea.xhtml.   What I did was 
to make the xhtml first, validate it etc, then save as html as well.  So the two 
files are identical, apart from the extension.


The first file,

http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/thearea.xhtml


in this one, in mozilla it shows fine, BUT in IE6 i get the invitation 
to download the file. ;)  (with background, too, in mozilla)



is served as application/xhtml+xml, whereas the second,

http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/thearea.html


in mozilla and IE6 i get it fine, and the background, also, in both 
browsers.


is served as text/html.  Which is what I wanted. So, apart from the extension, 
the files are identical. However, the css behaves differently - the body 
background colour is not showing in the xhtml version, but the background image 
shows OK . . .


The CSS is simple:

body{
font : 14px/20px Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
color : #333;
background: #e3ffe3 url(../rhhframes/415e3ebkgrnd.jpg) repeat-x fixed left 
top;
}

Is this to do with relative and absolute links again, or what?

AND, is there a 'list' of things which happen in 'real' xhtml but not in 
text/html? I've tried to search for the answer, but I just get swamped with the 
usual differences (backslashes and so on).


cheers
Donna
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[WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Donna Jones

Dear CSS Listers:

in another thread, someone essentially asked why code like this, in 
trying to convince a friend.  I don't think he's getting very good 
answers but at any rate, it made me think of a problem I'm having and 
I've decided to make a new thread.


A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has 
recently had some special grant money and as part of a package hired a 
PR firm to work with that segment from the grant (including the 
website).  They would rather I continue to maintain it but the PR firm 
feels otherwise.  The situation now, the PR firm has put up a number of 
pages, its tag soup, tables, js menu (with graphics) - you know.  I've 
done the same, based on the PR's firm design - css-p etc.  The 
non-profit doesn't know what code is, doesn't know there are browsers 
other than IE and don't feel they have the time to learn.


I need to be able to explain, by looking at the surface, the difference 
between standards coding versus you-know-what.  Just about the only 
thing I can come up with is the ability to increase font size in IE.  I 
also thought of making a PDA example using Opera's PDA emulator and 
comparing the two codings, with screen shots, next to each other and did 
that but i don't think they get what they're looking at.  Or else make 
very short sentences i.e. what the PR firm is doing is the way someone 
would have commonly done it five years ago ... 


Any other ideas.  Also, I'm afraid, the PR firm has convinced them that 
I am just the in-house volunteer and that *I'm* liable to mess up the 
site ... quoting an experience they had when they turned over a site to 
another customer.


I hope this is enough on-topic for some discussion.

best regards,
Donna

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Donna Jones

Kim Kruse wrote:

I tell my clients that the only way you can measure if your website 
(code wise) is any good is by using the industrial standards set by the 
W3 and the validators. This also means that if you can't maintain the 
site anymore any semi skilled coder should be able to take over. Not 
very likely with tag soup, huge scriptbased menus etc.


I'm aware that valid code is not the same as good (wellformed) code... 
and just because you use standards doesn't mean the 
usability/accessibility is any good.


Kim


Kim, I've tried that (they have no idea what the W3C is or validators or 
why it matters and don't want to learn) and it doesn't get me anywhere. 
 I've talked about accessibility and that gets me further (with the 
increase font-size bit).


The part about someone else being able to take it over more easily - i 
haven't talked about that much.  and maybe i could have more of a go 
with that.


thanks for your thoughts.

Donna

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Donna Jones

Terrence and all:  thank you for all your replies.

Lea said she thought accessibility was my strongest suit and I agree 
with that.  At least font-size increase is something that can be seen 
on the surface, and perhaps other accessibility issues that I haven't 
thought about.  I did think today of making screen shots in the Lynx 
emulator. its grant money but not government - yes, i guess there are 
still a few out there.  and, yes, they should care about accessibility 
and i think they do from a its the right thing to do standpoint.


Most of the other suggestions people have spoken of, though i find it a 
good review, are not applicable to my situation since i really am 
dealing with a what is a browser crowd.  I'd done the website 
(inherited at that point) for years before i could get anyone to pay any 
attention to it.


Lea, interesting you thought i was from the UK.  wonder if i type with a 
British accent - it should be a southern, u.s, but living in the 
northeast for the last 25 years accent! :)


Oh, someone mentioned showing everyone csszengardens  i did that 
already, in a very early meeting (the first and only one i was invited 
to).  my intent was to show the font-size increase bit.  Imagine my 
surprise when it wouldn't increase!  Yes, csszengardens won't increase 
font size in IE.  Of course, it would be different today so that's not a 
criticism and its interesting to read in CSS Zen Gardens (the book) 
about why the site is a time snapshot as far as the code.  Just don't 
go there to demonstrate accessibility. ;)



Terrence Wood wrote:


Why do the PR firm think they should maintain the site and not you?


Terrence, i don't think they want to maintain it, i think they want to 
deliver the whole thing as a way to justify the amount they had 
anticipated getting.


its all a bit convuloted (sp?) at this point - early on i told my 
non-profit that i would be happy to maintain it if the code met certain 
guidelines and those were spelled out and at least one place they were 
written down.  They were, off-the-top-of-my-head, css floating is the 
way it was written, no tables, font-size increasble, meeting accessible 
guidelines in general.  I also told them I would let it go if they'd 
rather get someone else but apparently there was no one chopping at the 
bit to take it on and they didn't want to look for anyone else.


A number of months have passed  the PR firm is saying now that 
they've done a lot of work (even to the point of volunteering, heh, 
can't imagine that)  they want to deliver the whole site.


I can't use their code and have done a lot myself.  so the bottom line 
is how to explain that i can't use the PRs firm's code.  I have a 
feeling the non-profit will end up paying the full amount for 
essentially two pages of design and i'll end up donating a *lot* of my 
time because the budget will be spent on the PR firm.



Have they put forward any compelling reasons why they are better qualified
to look after a web site? Get them to justify their position.

What are the long term implications when the grant money runs out?


well, the PR firm would not work for free, I would - therefore, I think 
I'll end up being the one responsible.  Unless I actively quit.  and 
the long-term implications are that i don't mind continuing my 
volunteering if its code that i find easy, and enjoyable, to work with. 
 I don't know what the $$ parameters are but my sense is that the 
non-profit doesn't understand why i have to change all the coding and 
therefore doesn't understand why i have to put all this work into it 
and I'm afraid the budget is eaten up by the PR firm and so the NP is 
feeling badly that I'm in the position, once again, of donating a lot 
of my time.  Ideally, in their view, i think, they'd like for me to say, 
yes, the PR's code is great and groovy and I'll continue maintenance, 
updating, no problem    I've created a bit of a dilemna because i 
can't, won't, do that ...



Ultimately the PR firm works for the NFP, not the other way round, get
your NFP to grow a spine. (OK I realise you might need a lot more tact
than that, but y'know, fire them up a bit!!!)


Yes, the woman with the PR firm is very, shall we say assertive  
I'm just the in-house volunteer (never mind that I know what I'm doing 
or am getting there or at least know where to go to get help!) and not 
particularly assertive, by inclination.  There was a contract signed and 
i'm sure that figures into all the equations.


well, done it again, wrote another book!

best wishes,
Donna

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Donna Jones

Peter J. Farrell wrote:


Donna Jones wrote:

... I'm afraid the budget is eaten up by the PR firm and so the NP is 
feeling badly that I'm in the position, once again, of donating a 
lot of my time.  Ideally, in their view, i think, they'd like for me 
to say, yes, the PR's code is great and groovy and I'll continue 
maintenance, updating, no problem    I've created a bit of a 
dilemna because i can't, won't, do that ...



I've been put in similar position by non-profit.  I was their webmaster 
for many years and volunteered my every minute of my time.  When they 
received a large grant for technologies improvements, I asked if I could 
put in a bid.  After spending a some time developing a detailed bid, the 
process became stalled and I never got the opportunity to even place a 
bid.  I later found out that they contracted a firm in which someone on 
the board of directors knew or at least I believe so (the details are 
sketchy).


In the end, I felt very used as a volunteer.  I recommend that anybody 
who volunteers for a non-profit, discuss ownership of code/designs when 
you volunteer.  I was happy that I was able put a co-copyright on the 
website and in files.  If problems arise, things resolve more easily 
because of that.


Anyways, I wanted to say that you've not created a dilemma for 
yourself.  Maybe this is just life saying you need to move on to newer 
and better things -- even though this still might feel near and dear to 
you.  If you still want to volunteer your time, find a struggling 
non-profit that means someone to you and especially one that doesn't 
have website or has a poor one.  Best of luck during this process for 
you Donna...


Thanks Peter, yes it sounds like a very similar situation.  Luckily I 
have one non-profit that does appreciate and pays me!  and I won big 
points with them because of accessibility.  I had made their web-site 
pretty much accessible (this was probably four/five years ago).  They 
had gone to a national conference and attended the website workshop. 
Lo and behold their website got pronounced as best because the font 
size could increase and they came back very happy.  Just a story of how 
accessibility can pay off, I didn't do it for that reason but was glad 
to have the points!


but, yes, back to my problem child non-profit.  It may be time to let 
it go, it is hard to see them get a poor website and pay a fair amount 
of money for it ... it is also hard to validate myself and get them to 
know that i do know what i'm doing, at least tons more than the PR firm.
But thanks for saying that I didn't create the dilemma ... I'll try to 
take that to heart.  I suspect its a pretty common situation; and, to be 
honest, when i first took it on, at no reimbursement, i was simply 
chomping at the bits to have something to do and probably felt like i 
should pay them for letting me do it.  I've changed a bit since then!


Thanks again for your kind note and understanding.

Donna




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Re: [WSG] XML Declaration

2005-12-04 Thread Donna Jones


- Creating an xhtml 1.0 document.

- Cleaning out 'human bugs' in HTMLTidy - 'convert to xml'.

- Serving it as 'xhtml' with the extension '.xhtml' to browsers that can
make anything out of it - Opera, Moz/FF, Safari - internally and on line.
Info: application/xhtml+xml - no errors - no apparent problems.

- Changing the extension down to '.html' to get wide-spread support,
with no additional changes to the document.

- Run it through any browser I care to support - and maybe a few others
and the validator for good measure - no apparent problems.



Greetings everyone:

line 2 above, how do you convert to xml?  I have Tidy installed on 
mozilla/fx but i don't see anyway to convert.  More explanation would be 
appreciated!


i'm really appreciating these threads.  i've been sticking with html4.01 
until i understand what i'm doing, maybe that time is approaching? 
maybe...


i ran into the information about how complicated all this was about 7 
months ago, 3 months or so after i started learning css-p.  so i don't 
have any new websites as xhtml.


anyways, some elaboration by you Georg or anyone else obviously, on your 
methods would be appreciated.


Thanks!

Donna


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Re: [WSG] MSIE standalone from quirksmode and conditional comments

2005-11-19 Thread Donna Jones

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:


Marco van Hylckama Vlieg wrote:

I'm using the standalone MSIE 5.01 and 5.5 from www.quirksmode.org to  
tweak a design for IE5 and 5.5.



Is it just me or don't these versions pick up conditional comments  
for various older IE versions?


here is the fix, if you or anyone else wants it, so you can see that 
they're working.


http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/multiIE.html

best
Donna




No, only the latest...

Have a read: http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2005/11/03/ie7_conditio/

Georg

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Re: [WSG] Advanced CSS Training and Publications

2005-10-17 Thread Donna Jones
So I'm appealing to the list for suggestions on advanced CSS  
publications and on-line training.



Respectfully,
Chris


Chris, re on-line training, you might want to check out the courses at 
international webmasters association/html writers' guild. 
http://www.hwg.org/


i got a wonderful head start on positioning by taking their 
Intermediate class (Workshop).  There is a syllabus so you could read 
that and see if it might suit where you are.


i love taking courses because it helps me focus - i need that.

in the future they'll probably be offering, again, Advanced CSS 
Selectors being taught by Minz Meyer - he's good.  (i just took it a bit 
ago).  you could sign up to be notified.


also, notice that if you're a member of iwa you get a big discount on 
the courses so its worth it to sign up as a member.


cheers
Donna

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Re: [WSG] Is a colon after a form label necessary?

2005-10-13 Thread Donna Jones
Hi Gail.  i was just thinking about this last night.  After recently 
reading Eat Shoots and Leaves i've become more aware of punctuation 
and how it aids in the rhythm of words, and phrases, and thus 
comprehension.  it would seem to me that a colon would help a screen 
reader user.  and your reference below, (a snip right below) speaks to 
that.  imho, as they say, it should be one of the things gleaned from 
your references!  and thanks for posting all those references.


 Pay attention to punctuation
 Screen readers use punctuation cues to modulate the tone and measure
 of the reading, e.g., a colon will cause the screen reader to pause;
 ...

for myself, i will use it.

best regards,
Donna



McLaughlin, Gail G wrote:


We are establishing Web standards for forms and are debating this.

Here’s what I have gleaned based on reading the references cited below.

1. Colons are hard to see on a screen. (Reference 1.)
2. W3C does not state a requirement for a colon after a label.
3. WAI recommends identifying a label with a LABEL tag and does not 
mention using a colon. (Reference 3.)
4. 508 Standards Information for Standards does not mention using a 
colon for labels.
5. Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) software might require the 
colon. (Reference 2.)
6. According to Microsoft, screen-review utilities might use a colon to 
identify a control. (Reference 4.)


I suspect that using a colon after a label is a carry over from paper 
forms.  Microsoft may need the colon. I do not know what “screen review 
utilities” are. Are they html validators? Are they accessibility 
validators?


What say you all?

---
Reference 1.
William Horton in his book “Designing and Writing Online Documentation” 
recommends avoiding colons and semicolons because they are hard to 
distinguish on a screen.

---
Reference 2.
Wright State University
http://www.wright.edu/web/access/standard_n.html

(n) When electronic forms are designed to be completed  on-line, the 
form shall allow people using assistive technology to access the 
 information, field elements, and functionality required for completion 
and  submission of the form, including all directions and cues.

WSU  Web Accessibility Guidelines

WSU Information
Ensure that the user may interact with the form with a preferred input 
(or output) device, such as a mouse, keyboard, voice or head  wand. If a 
form control can only be activated with a mouse or other  pointing 
device, someone who is using the page without sight, with  voice input, 
or with only a keyboard will not be able to use the form.


* Use explicit labels as outlined in the 508  Standards
  Information for Standard (n).
* Provide a phone number the Web visitor can call to verbally
   supply the requested information. An e-mail address should also
   be included.
* Preface each form element with a descriptive name followed  by a
  colon. The Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) software  calls
  each form element by the word prior to and on the same  line as
  the form element.


Example:
 label for=firstFirst Name:/lablel INPUT TYPE=text 
name=firstname id=first

--
Reference 3.
Sarah Horton, Accessible Design Guidelines
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~webteach/resources/download/guidelines5.pdf  


Pay attention to punctuation
Screen readers use punctuation cues to modulate the tone and measure of 
the reading, e.g., a colon will cause the screen reader to pause; a 
period will produce a cadence and pause. Be liberal with punctuation as 
these pauses and cadences greatly enhance the readability of your text. 
Without punctuation the reader continues without pause or change in 
inflection, so unpunctuated phrases run together into one long and 
jumbled sentence.


Also, avoid using text to convey visual information, such as using a “” 
or “/”symbol as navigation to show the path to the user’s current 
location. The screen reader will read the symbol literally rather than 
interpret the visual meaning you wish to convey.


Label form fields
If you simply place a form field on a page and do not have a label 
associated with it, users who are read Web pages will have no way of 
knowing what the field is there for. Associate labels with their form 
fields by positioning them together on the page and by using the LABEL 
tag to associate the label text with its form field. Note that you need 
to include the ID attribute in your INPUT tags whenever you use the 
LABEL tag. 


Use LABEL to associate fields with their labels

Example:

LABEL FOR=firstnameFirst name: /LABELINPUT TYPE=text 
NAME=firstname ID=firstname


LABEL FOR=lastnameLast name: INPUT TYPE=text NAME=lastname 
ID=lastname



Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox

2005-09-06 Thread Donna Jones

dwain alford wrote:


Drake, Ted C. wrote:


Hi all
If you haven't read Patrick Lauke's article on using the web developer
toolbar, you should check it out. I thought I knew the toolbar but he's
introduced several features that have made it into my daily work habit.

http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue44/lauke/



snip


On Sat, 2005-09-03 at 23:40 -0400, Donna Jones wrote:

does anyone have an url for this?  tried finding it on moz and 
couldn't and really would like to try it out.




http://accessibar.mozdev.org/


 /snip

ted,
this is an accessibility tool bar; quite different from the web dev tool 
bar.


dwain


Yes, and I was the one that asked for the link to it.  After I got there 
found out to get it to read the page one has to hover w/ a mouse - so 
totally unlike a screen reader.  I think hovering with a mouse could be 
helpful to some people but it doesn't give one an idea of how the page 
is read by a screen reader.  i didn't download/install it.


But that article by Patrick that he references above --- it is a great 
article talking about the webdev bar - the reference just sorta ended up 
in the wrong thread. ;-)


best
Donna







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Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox

2005-09-03 Thread Donna Jones
does anyone have an url for this?  tried finding it on moz and couldn't 
and really would like to try it out.


tia
Donna

Rick Faaberg wrote:


On 8/23/05 10:25 PM dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out:



i just downloaded the accessibar at the mozdev web site.  it's got a
built in reader; so if you have speakers or a headset you can hear how
accessible your page is in a reader.  it's not superior quality audio,
but it definitely gives you a sense of what's on the page.  the tool bar
is for folks with accessibility issues.  maybe i'm getting into gadgets
for accessibility, but as a visual artist and web designer, i'm caring
more about standards and accessibility more each day.  check it out,
it's a cool firefox/mozilla extension.



Is there some way to install and execute on Mac OSX? Anybody has done it?

Thanks

Rick

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Re: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

2005-07-27 Thread Donna Jones

Mugur Padurean wrote:

Hello, reality check here.

Quoting the US and Australian available IT infrastructure, as a good reason 
for building huge web pages, is wrong for at least three reasons:


I surely didn't mean to be doing that, please see below.

1. Over 90% percent of the world population do not live there and do not 
have dial-up access or other types of network access of such quality.
In Romania where I am living dial-up access it's ... frustrating. So it's 
cable sometimes, ADSL if way too expensive and other means of network access 
are are inaccessible due to cost or limited area of availability. What about 
laptops ? Or wireless access? Both are much slower but in wide spread use. 
Did you know in my country you are charged by the megabyte ? Technology is 
NOT spread uniformly all over the world, and making your page smaller it's a 
better, smarter and fair approach than waiting for the world to catch up 
with you guys. I'm surprised you don't care but that's another story.


Hi Mugar:  glad to have a reality check, especially from Romania.  ah, I 
care!  and I wasn't saying that *I* make big pages, I try to keep mine 
really small.  That's one reason I still have dial-up, so I don't forget 
what its like for everyone else.  In the city (small to moderate) I live 
in a lot of people have cable.  It was a test city early on for their 
cable  I have never used broadband, some for security reasons, but 
mainly I don't want to lose touch with how fast things load, or not, 
that I'm designing.  That said, I hadn't thought very much about how the 
IT structure, in general, probably makes a BIG difference in how dial-up 
works, so glad to have those thoughts in my brain.  I generally connect 
at 53K and I bet that may be better than a lot of people on dial-up.  I 
had known how in most (a lot) of Europe you are charged for download time.


BUT, in this particular site we're discussing, the designer thinks they 
are targeting local businesses and they probably have figured that out, 
so odds are no one from anywhere else but Australia will even want to 
visit this site; and they're targetting businesses which, apparently, 
are on broadband.  and their html is under 4K, which you have to admit 
is pretty slim.  and the same graphic is in the background on every 
page, so its just one download.


2.Is technology evenly spread in your countries ( US and Australia)? Is 
there no place in those countries where Internet access makes you wanna kill 
that evil designer that put a 4 Mb flash intro on your favourite site ? I 
bet you all live in big cities, don't you ? Lucky guys ..


well, medium size as I said.  But, I do think technology is not spread 
out evenly, I know its not in Maine (n. U.S.).  I think probably most of 
the major population areas can get broadband but if you're not in a 
city its pretty spotty.


3. Australia and U.S are two countries where going big with your pages 
will cost you more, as in bandwidth cost (etc), and in the end will lead to 
loosing clients. Isn't it ? 


I think a site has to be really very active for bandwidth costs to kick 
in.  I know with anything I've ever done it hasn't been an issue; of 
course, its something to keep in mind.  maybe the newsletters at Maine 
Humanities might all of a sudden become wildly popular. :-)


Otherwise we will end up with a web full of 10 Mb pages with embedded 
databases, wallpaper backgrounds, tag soup and proprietary technologies ... 
oh, wait ... we already have that! Damn ...


Cute.

So, I agree with everything you say as a general principle.  I'm 3/4ths 
Luddite, after all.  its just in this particular case, the separation of 
the image from the html - is not building big *pages*. at most it is one 
big page but what feels seems different in this instance is that the 
image is in the background so the image is not even necessary to see the 
page and load the page.  Of course, the general principle is that that 
contributes to over-all bloat but some people have already said that 
e.g. in the case of csszengardens that there are legitimate reasons for 
breaking that rule - I would just argue the same for this website 
(other design problems aside).  they know their audience, its local, its 
on broadband.


cheers
Donna

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Re: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

2005-07-26 Thread Donna Jones

Mugur Padurean wrote:

Hello, reality check here.

Quoting the US and Australian available IT infrastructure, as a good reason 
for building huge web pages, is wrong for at least three reasons:


I surely didn't mean to be doing that, please see below.

1. Over 90% percent of the world population do not live there and do not 
have dial-up access or other types of network access of such quality.
In Romania where I am living dial-up access it's ... frustrating. So it's 
cable sometimes, ADSL if way too expensive and other means of network access 
are are inaccessible due to cost or limited area of availability. What about 
laptops ? Or wireless access? Both are much slower but in wide spread use. 
Did you know in my country you are charged by the megabyte ? Technology is 
NOT spread uniformly all over the world, and making your page smaller it's a 
better, smarter and fair approach than waiting for the world to catch up 
with you guys. I'm surprised you don't care but that's another story.


Hi Mugar:  glad to have a reality check, especially from Romania.  ah, I 
care!  and I wasn't saying that *I* make big pages, I try to keep mine 
really small.  That's one reason I still have dial-up, so I don't forget 
what its like for everyone else.  In the city (small to moderate) I live 
in a lot of people have cable.  It was a test city early on for their 
cable  I have never used broadband, some for security reasons, but 
mainly I don't want to lose touch with how fast things load, or not, 
that I'm designing.  That said, I hadn't thought very much about how the 
IT structure, in general, probably makes a BIG difference in how dial-up 
works, so glad to have those thoughts in my brain.  I generally connect 
at 53K and I bet that may be better than a lot of people on dial-up.  I 
had known how in most (a lot) of Europe you are charged for download time.


BUT, in this particular site we're discussing, the designer thinks they 
are targeting local businesses and they probably have figured that out, 
so odds are no one from anywhere else but Australia will even want to 
visit this site; and they're targetting businesses which, apparently, 
are on broadband.  and their html is under 4K, which you have to admit 
is pretty slim.  and the same graphic is in the background on every 
page, so its just one download.


2.Is technology evenly spread in your countries ( US and Australia)? Is 
there no place in those countries where Internet access makes you wanna kill 
that evil designer that put a 4 Mb flash intro on your favourite site ? I 
bet you all live in big cities, don't you ? Lucky guys ..


well, medium size as I said.  But, I do think technology is not spread 
out evenly, I know its not in Maine (n. U.S.).  I think probably most of 
the major population areas can get broadband but if you're not in a 
city its pretty spotty.


3. Australia and U.S are two countries where going big with your pages 
will cost you more, as in bandwidth cost (etc), and in the end will lead to 
loosing clients. Isn't it ? 


I think a site has to be really very active for bandwidth costs to kick 
in.  I know with anything I've ever done it hasn't been an issue; of 
course, its something to keep in mind.  maybe the newsletters at Maine 
Humanities might all of a sudden become wildly popular. :-)


Otherwise we will end up with a web full of 10 Mb pages with embedded 
databases, wallpaper backgrounds, tag soup and proprietary technologies ... 
oh, wait ... we already have that! Damn ...


Cute.

So, I agree with everything you say as a general principle.  I'm 3/4ths 
Luddite, after all.  its just in this particular case, the separation of 
the image from the html - is not building big *pages*. at most it is one 
big page but what feels seems different in this instance is that the 
image is in the background so the image is not even necessary to see the 
page and load the page.  Of course, the general principle is that that 
contributes to over-all bloat but some people have already said that 
e.g. in the case of csszengardens that there are legitimate reasons for 
breaking that rule - I would just argue the same for this website 
(other design problems aside).  they know their audience, its local, its 
on broadband.


cheers
Donna

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Re: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

2005-07-25 Thread Donna Jones

This article only discusses reducing the HTML size. which if you take a look
at the site is already rather anorexic. Loading an image once, caching it
for potentially weeks, and not loading anything other than small HTML pages
as they browse the rest of the site seems like the smartest way it's going
to happen.


I'm not sure i understand what all the feedback regarding the background 
image is about either.  it seems to me that the size of the html is what 
matters, its not like the page is dependant on the background.  i'm half 
a planet away, n. U.S., the html loads real well, then the background 
comes in in about half a minute (i'm on dial-up, too).  I downloaded the 
background image to see if I could optomize it to smaller but it seems 
like its already as small as it will go.  I surely can't tell any 
difference between the way this site loads and many of them in 
cssgardens - in fact, i just found an official one, and its background 
is 185K.  found another, 100K.  another 136K.   most much smaller but 
still 


Of more concern, as far as I can tell, is abandoning smaller 
dimensions (800 wide) and no scroll bars, but maybe you've addressed 
that and just not loaded yet.


regards
Donna





 


Basically, unless there's some fancy new way to encode the image, I don't
see any point is destroying an otherwise good design that our VCD team has
generated for the sake of saving a few seconds once-off.

 


Yes - I think 120kb is big (not huge though). If there is a way to make it
smaller, feel free to suggest and I'll implement. Otherwise, the speed of an
extreme minority of our user base shouldn't restrict how we work.

 


Also, I'm not 'assuming' as you suggest - we have bandwidth stats from the
current broadleaf.com.au site to suggest that narrowband isn't a significant
concern.

 

 

 


Thanks,

 


Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com

  _  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mugur Padurean
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 3:48 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

 


Sorry, but quoting Microsoft page as good design example is not a good
ideea. No web page that big IS a good ideea.
Maybe this will help you:

http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/throwing_tables/

The purpose of the article it's slightly different but it's a very good
motivator for small size web pages.
Also asuming that your clients will not care or will not be affected by a
web page size does not sound to me like a good business atitute.

I have no intention to annoy you or to start a rant. It's just just that i'm
on ADSL connection ... half the planet away. And big pages load slowly,
almost as dial-up (or so it feels).

On 7/25/05, Tatham Oddie (Fuel Advance) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:

Edward,

 


Thanks for your input, however we didn't really consider this a big issue
as:

 


*   most of the target market will be on office internet connections and
ADSL is basically a minimum for such people in Australia

 


*   the image is only downloaded once, and will be reused in the content
pages, just with different column layouts

 


*   because the image is only downloaded once, only the first page hit
will be slow - and first page hit occurs because users are after something
on your site - they are prepared to wait a bit longer to get it; keeping
tight page sizes is more critical when moving around a site in which case
we're only about 4k total

 


*   because the image is loaded through CSS, all of the content will be
positioned and usable anyway before the background clogs the connection -
just that a few seconds later the thing will start to look good as well

 


*   many larger sites are starting to acknowledge all of these points as
well:

 


*   microsoft.com home page is pushing 140k
*   sxc.hu home page is pushing 107k
*   yahoo.com.au home page is pushing 167k
*   ninemsn.com home page is pushing 136k
*   news.com.au home page is pushing 383k

 


Thanks,

 


Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com 

  _  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Edward Clarke
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 3:08 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

 


I suspect the 120Kb footprint of the background image is of more concern to
most visitors.

 




Edward Clarke

ECommerce and Software Consultant

 


TN38 Consulting

http://blog.tn38.net 

 


Creative Media Centre

17-19 Robertson Street

Hastings

East Sussex

TN34 1HL

United Kingdom

  _  


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matthew Vanderhorst
Sent: 24 July 2005 17:52
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

 


The design is very nice but the background image of the tree repeats.  It is
not noticeable 

Re: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

2005-07-25 Thread Donna Jones
Hi Terrence:  in checking the speed report (under Tools in FF), the site 
comes through with flying colors - under 4K. 
http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/Broadleaf/Home/Index.fuel


http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/wso.php?url=http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/Broadleaf/Home/Index.fuel 



quoteTOTAL_HTML - Congratulations, the total number of HTML files on 
this page (including the main HTML file) is 1 which most browsers can 
multithread. Minimizing HTTP requests is key for web site optimization.

/quote

best
Donna

Terrence Wood wrote:

Sites where designers can show off their chops cater to a specific 
audience - other designers who want to be thrilled by a primarily visual 
experience. There is nothing wrong with eye candy sites for people 
interested in eye candy, but using such examples as an argument in 
support of creating really big web pages for every/any site is flawed.


One size does not fit all, and in fact the entire design industry is 
built on this truth. Remember design is about creatively solving 
business problems, not the business of expressing your creativity.


There are many sound reasons not to create large web site pages, some of 
which are discussed in this thread already, and I suggest that where a 
peer review of a design repeatedly invokes the same criticism that there 
is probably something in that criticism.


I don't know of anybody in the real world (broadband or not) who has 
asked for a bigger slower web.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

On 26 Jul 2005, at 4:30 AM, Donna Jones wrote:

I surely can't tell any difference between the way this site loads and 
many of them in cssgardens - in fact, i just found an official one, 
and its background is 185K.  found another, 100K.  another 136K.   
most much smaller but still 


Of more concern, as far as I can tell, is abandoning smaller 
dimensions (800 wide) and no scroll bars, but maybe you've addressed 
that and just not loaded yet.



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Re: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

2005-07-25 Thread Donna Jones
Not exactly a clean user experience then. Particularly troublesome when 
designers rely on the background image and define colour for their text 
to be readable against it, but fail to provide fallback background colour.


Zengarden is an experimental site, showcasing in many cases how one can 
push the boundaries using CSS. I would not hold it as a model for what 
should or shouldn't be implemented on a production site.



Hi Patrick:  In this case there is fallback colour.  Its perfectly 
readable w/out the background image, at least it is when I hide 
background image w/ the webdev toolbar in Firefox.  and from what i've 
observed when it is loading.


okay okay *smile* maybe zengardens is not a good example, I mainly 
mentioned it because I was familiar with it, of course, and knew that 
others would be on here, also.  I also realize that ZenGardens is sorta 
frozen in space and time and Eric would have done some things 
differently if he was doing it today - I found that real interesting 
reading in the csszengardens book.


I think there are issues w/ this design but I can't see how the 
background image is particularly an issue - if it was embedded in the 
html, altogether different, obviously.


so  okay, I'm a newby and can't believe I'm arguing with you 
experts (maybe because its too hot here in Maine even though its much 
better than a lot of the U.S.) but nobody has convinced me that the 
background image here is a problem.


cheers
Donna

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Re: [WSG] Text messes up in Internet Explorer - newbie

2005-07-12 Thread Donna Jones
hi Bruce:  There are some errors in your html that may be causing it. 
Validate your code and then see what's happening.  if you don't have 
firefox installed with its webdev extension you probably should and 
that's maybe the easiest way to get to the validator.  if you need more 
help with that ask and i, or someone, would be happy to look up the urls 
for you.


best
Donna


Bruce wrote:


Hi all.

I am new to Web Standards (within 6 months), but learn from this list daily
and appreciate it.

I have a three column site using fixed positioning. In Internet explorer,
when first entering the site, some of the text is at the top where it
shouldn't be. If I refresh the page or use the scrollbars it comes ok. In
Firefox page seems fine...

What would cause this?  I Have no clue even how to do a search on this one.
http://www.bkdesign.ca

Thanks
Bruce Prochnau

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Re: [WSG] Text messes up in Internet Explorer - newbie

2005-07-12 Thread Donna Jones

Bruce wrote:


Thank you for answering Donna,

Validator says 1 error, and it's a h2 tag in a post. I also have a 3 pixel
gap below banner image that's driving me nuts.
body, img, banner, padding and margins set to 0


not sure if this is the issue, but  your image is 84 pixels tall, 
you have borders on the top and bottom totally 10px . therefore, 94 
pixels altogether.  you're calling a height of 88 pixels in #banner  
maybe it all just doesn't add up?



Standards are great, and I know there is a learning curve, but when one is
trying to exist and make a living, dozens of hours spent over little
things make one want to give up and use tables or something. Seriously.
Just frustrated I guess...


yes, can relate and probably most of the people on this list have felt 
the same way.





Bruce

Donna Jones wrote:



hi Bruce:  There are some errors in your html that may be causing it.
Validate your code and then see what's happening.  if you don't have
firefox installed with its webdev extension you probably should and
that's maybe the easiest way to get to the validator.  if you need more
help with that ask and i, or someone, would be happy to look up the urls
for you.

best
Donna


Bruce wrote:



Hi all.

I am new to Web Standards (within 6 months), but learn from this list


daily


and appreciate it.

I have a three column site using fixed positioning. In Internet


explorer,


when first entering the site, some of the text is at the top where it
shouldn't be. If I refresh the page or use the scrollbars it comes ok.


In


Firefox page seems fine...

What would cause this?  I Have no clue even how to do a search on this


one.


http://www.bkdesign.ca

Thanks
Bruce Prochnau

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Re: Fw: [WSG] Text messes up in Internet Explorer - newbie

2005-07-12 Thread Donna Jones

Bruce wrote:


Woops, gap fixed. space in code.


Happy to know that's fixed and I helped. :-)

I'll tell you how I found it because its rather a new method to me and 
may be to you and others. Its using the edit css in Firefox.  Of 
course, you can't see how it effects IE since its just local to Firefox, 
but still ...


and, as far as you're saying you didn't want to bother the list imho 
when someone asks questions that I can help with (assuming I have time) 
I consider it a gift because I like helping and its a learning 
opportunity, too.  Learning opportunities are important to me because I 
just started learning positioning in January and well, you know, the 
mysteries just don't stop.


best
Donna









Thank you for answering Donna,

Validator says 1 error, and it's a h2 tag in a post. I also have a 3 pixel
gap below banner image that's driving me nuts.
body, img, banner, padding and margins set to 0

Standards are great, and I know there is a learning curve, but when one is
trying to exist and make a living, dozens of hours spent over little
things make one want to give up and use tables or something. Seriously.
Just frustrated I guess...

Bruce

Donna Jones wrote:



hi Bruce:  There are some errors in your html that may be causing it.
Validate your code and then see what's happening.  if you don't have
firefox installed with its webdev extension you probably should and
that's maybe the easiest way to get to the validator.  if you need more
help with that ask and i, or someone, would be happy to look up the urls
for you.

best
Donna


Bruce wrote:



Hi all.

I am new to Web Standards (within 6 months), but learn from this list


daily


and appreciate it.

I have a three column site using fixed positioning. In Internet


explorer,


when first entering the site, some of the text is at the top where it
shouldn't be. If I refresh the page or use the scrollbars it comes ok.


In


Firefox page seems fine...

What would cause this?  I Have no clue even how to do a search on this


one.


http://www.bkdesign.ca

Thanks
Bruce Prochnau

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Re: [WSG] Absolute position problem in IE

2005-06-26 Thread Donna Jones

tee wrote:

The site looks fine under IE6 on my PC. Nice job.



Thanks but are your sure the menu is working??? It obviously doesn't in my
IE 5/6 (both W2K and XP home); hover disappear and links are not clickable.

tee


Hi Tee: I just looked - and the menus aren't working for me.  I 
downloaded most of your code and tried looking at it locally, and the 
menus started working!  makes me wonder about the IE7 bit.  (major 
sigh).


so  just copied IE7 over to that directory, and yes, IE6 has quit 
working in the menu.  its something to do with IE7.


Here's the low-down: on-line, through your site.  IE6 and IE55 don't 
work; IE5.0 does (but who cares).


In my download, locally: everything works.

I add IE7 and then IE6 doesn't work but IE5.5 does.

anyway, try putting a bad path in the IE7 stuff, easy to test that way.

it never stops .

Donna





I was working on a site that has 4 absolute divs for two png images, a left
column and a right column for menu. The two images work fine and the left
column seems working fine except it doesn't stay where I want it to be,
however the right column menu, links and hover are not working at all.

This is the first time I have 4 absolute position wrapped in a relative div,
I was wondering if IE has issue with more than one absolute div.

The page:
http://clients.lotusseeds.com
css: http://clients.lotusseeds.com/index.css


Thanks!

tee




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Re: [WSG] Absolute position problem in IE

2005-06-26 Thread Donna Jones

The two images work fine and the left
column seems working fine except it doesn't stay where I want it to be,


Tee, I figured this out.  Change the width of your #leftColWrapper to 
92px, the same as is in your books class.  Small consolation though, in 
face of the Dean Edwards(IE7) conflicts, eh, but thought I'd pass it on.


cheers
Donna


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Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?

2005-04-12 Thread Donna Jones
I really like Bruce Lawson.  and as a bonus I found that his Zen Garden 
is being hosted again, by a benefactor (he had, as he puts it, a 
liquidity crises).

http://www.tastydirt.com/zen/zengarden.htm
If you haven't seen this, you gotta look!
Donna
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
tee wrote:
... For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds very
beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services,
they want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and
professional  and they want it to be affordable. They simply want to
know how much it will cost right, nothing behind the scene will
interest them.

Web standards includes many things that most clients and many web
designers may easily overlook -- and someone will have to pay for later.
Here are a few points that most clients may understand only too well:
http://brucelawson.co.uk/index.htm#accessreasons
... it all comes down to money, doesn't it?
regards
Georg
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Re: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?

2005-04-11 Thread Donna Jones
Hi, I enjoyed reading your message and good points, of course.  I've 
actually marked it for saving (well, I knew all of them but you said it 
all succiently!).

One other point I like to make is that *color is free* on the web versus 
the print world.

good luck with your presentation, Zulema!
Cheers
Donna

heretic wrote:
heya,

I'm going to make a presentation to art students on an introduction to
web design and would like some advice (besides how to deal with the
butterfiles in the stomach). 

A few points
1) 
Many artsts claim that the limitations of web design restricts
creativity. Realistically, a) it's not *that* limited, and b)
limitation is a source of inspiration anyway.

To this end I'd head that argument off at the pass by showing them the
CSS Zen Garden (it's an old chestnut to us, but they probably won't
have seen it).
2)
Continuing the faux-eastern theme, they probably need to understand
that the web is not print - again, an old chestnut: The Dao of Web
Design (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/).
Let the web be the web - they will need to create a design which
changes slightly and yet retains its spirit. A few pixels here and
there is of no real concern. Just as they cannot control the mood of a
patron viewing a painting, they cannot control the equipment used by
their audience.
3)
The web is like a print job with an unlimited budget (well ok, not
really). But seriously - they won't run out of paper on the web, nor
do they have to put up with cheap paper stock.
So they will never need to cram an essay onto an A5 sheet - they can
let a website breathe and spread comfortably. White space is just as
important online as it is anywhere else.
4)
Just like anything else, the medium is not the message. Their designs
need to make the substance shine - they wouldn't get away with
typesetting a novel in 6pt microtext; so they shouldn't expect to do
it online.
5)
Finally.. not everyone has a Mac G5 with a 20inch cinema display.
So don't design pages according to their own gear! :)
Not sure any of that really helps you, but man it was therapeutic to write 
it :)
cheers,
h
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Re: [WSG] Really strange results

2005-04-04 Thread Donna Jones
scott parsons wrote:
The easy answer is that your server is configured incorrectly.
Your stylesheet is being served as text/plain, and not text/css
thus some browsers are not treating it as a style sheet..
i just did a quick test, copying leslie's code and css and loaded it on 
my server - and it was read by mozilla and firefox.  I wasn't even 
going to say anything because I was so mystified by it - but your answer 
explains it, Scott.   Some days I find these mysteries rather fun; 
other days  I dunno.

best
Donna
Leslie Riggs wrote:
In some browsers, the test page I have put up renders fine: namely, IE 
Mac, Safari on Mac, IE6 on PC.  However, Firefox, Opera, Mozilla and 
Netscape don't seem to see the stylesheet.

Both HTML and CSS validated fine through the W3C site.
I am really having a difficult time understanding why some browsers 
see the stylesheet, while others don't?

The link to the page:  
http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.

CSS is at http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/css/btwnewx.css.
This is the first time I've encountered this situation, so anyone who 
can point me in the right direction, I would be very much obliged.

Thanks.
Leslie Riggs
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Re: [WSG] Float help

2005-03-14 Thread Donna Jones
Keith: I'm so new at this I'm surprised to be answering, but one thing 
that is wrong is that you don't have a proper doc type.  you have
!doctype html public -//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en 
you need to have it with the full uri.  like such 

!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN
 http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd;
html lang=en
head
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8
I kept the lang bit in the html and the character encoding bit too, in 
my cut-and-paste because you do need them.

fixing the doctype may help IE to see it correctly  at any rate, 
its a beginning.  I have had that be the problem for me 

getting in the habit of validating your html and css at
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A//techvisioneer.com/clients/wshein/demo/admin/test/NewDesign.htm 

is a necessity, too!  :-)
hope this gets you started.
best
Donna

Keith Ellis wrote:
Hi all,
This is my virgin post to this group after reading many months worth of 
posts so hopefully somebody will give me the tweak I need here.
#container
   #pageHeader
#headerLeft (where logo is bg-image)
#nav
#headerRight
   #pageContent
   #pageFooter
http://techvisioneer.com/clients/wshein/demo/admin/test/NewDesign.htm
I have a fairly simple header/content/footer layout except the height of 
the logo in the header is greater than the desired height of the header 
itself. My goal is to have the logo fixed in the upper left and the code 
in the #pageContent area to wrap around it.
I set the height of #pageHeader as I'd like and floated #headerLeft to 
the left inside #pageHeader. This works perfect in FireFox but IE isn't 
recognizing the height of #pageHeader and it's bumping the content area 
underneath the logo instead of right beneath the set height of #pageHeader.
All help is GREAT as this is something I have yet to figure out and need 
to ASAP!
Keith
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[WSG] safari help!!

2005-01-29 Thread Donna Jones
Hi everyone:  I had signed up for this group some months ago and it was 
so over-my-head that I un-subbed when I had to be away a bit and just 
re-subbed tonight.  Didn't think I would be writing so soon but really 
need help with this and it may be a simple call for someone - I hope.

http://katahdininstitute.org/redesign/  The page isn't totally finished, 
as far as formatting the text and such.  It holds together in everything 
but Safari!  I need to get it to hold together in Safari, too.  What to do!

I am really really trying to learn css now and hopefully I'll be able to 
contribute before too long instead of just pleading for help.  and 
thanks to Eric I managed to implement the sliding doors, was thrilled 
with that, I am menu challenged.

So, why I need help is because I've been saying to the client/friend 
(mainly friend) that when the css is implemented, the code is cleaned 
up, on and on, it will be really easy to do the rest of the pages and 
make changes in the future.  I talked to her tonight, she really liked 
it and I had to tell her I'd run into a snag because of Safari - that's 
when it occurred to me to turn to the experts and see if I might find 
some help.

best wishes and tia,
Donna
ps, this is the most css I've ever done, but am taking a class right now 
 through iwa.

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Re: [WSG] safari help!!

2005-01-29 Thread Donna Jones
well, really sorry about this message, meant it for the css-discuss 
group.  Just re-signed up to this one and the css-discuss tonight and 
not enough sleep - those are my excuses. ;-)

BUT I am happy to be back in here, too, and look forward to reading your 
 words of standards wisdom.  of course, if anyone wants to help I won't 
be unhappy about that, but I don't expect it.

Take care everyone.
best
Donna
Donna Jones wrote:
Hi everyone:  I had signed up for this group some months ago and it was 
so over-my-head that I un-subbed when I had to be away a bit and just 
re-subbed tonight.  Didn't think I would be writing so soon but really 
need help with this and it may be a simple call for someone - I hope.

http://katahdininstitute.org/redesign/  The page isn't totally finished, 
as far as formatting the text and such.  It holds together in everything 
but Safari!  I need to get it to hold together in Safari, too.  What to do!

I am really really trying to learn css now and hopefully I'll be able to 
contribute before too long instead of just pleading for help.  and 
thanks to Eric I managed to implement the sliding doors, was thrilled 
with that, I am menu challenged.

So, why I need help is because I've been saying to the client/friend 
(mainly friend) that when the css is implemented, the code is cleaned 
up, on and on, it will be really easy to do the rest of the pages and 
make changes in the future.  I talked to her tonight, she really liked 
it and I had to tell her I'd run into a snag because of Safari - that's 
when it occurred to me to turn to the experts and see if I might find 
some help.

best wishes and tia,
Donna
ps, this is the most css I've ever done, but am taking a class right now 
 through iwa.


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Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar

2004-07-14 Thread Donna Jones
Hi everyone, I just signed on to this list today and just set up a new 
filter and corralled all the messages.

I would like to download this new toolbar for accessibility testing. 
Everyone's talking about it but I couldn't find a url - anyone?

I'm mainly here to lurk 'n learn, don't tend to be very chatty but just 
thought i'd say a few words and see if i could get that toolbar! :-)

TIA and thanks to the list admin and thanks to all the regular contributors.
warm regards,
Donna Jones
Lee Roberts wrote:
Congratulations to NILS for such a fantastic tool.  Your use of the
simulator is perfection and can help people understand how others view their
web sites.
Steven, I thank you and your fellow programmers.
Lee Roberts
http://www.roserockdesign.com
http://www.applepiecart.com
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar

The reasons why the new version of the web accessibility toolbar is IE
only:
1. there was a gap in the market, no tools comparable to those available
for mozilla were/are available for IE 2. our programming expertise is
limited (if somebody wants to work with us on versions for other
browsers/operating systems we'd be  interested) 3. our resources are very
limited as this project is unfunded so we work on it between paid work and
in our spare time.
4. while some people realise that there are better browsers than IE out
there, their uptake is still very small , and my original idea was to raise
awareness of accessibility issues and provide the tools to the masses.
5. For better or worse many assistive technology users use IE  for web
browsing, so i tend to use it for accessibility testing and browsing due to
this circumstance.
6. What time I have had to work on developing the toolbar has so far been
directed at improving the functionality and collaborating with others to
create versions in other languages.
with regards
Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information  Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
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http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
* 



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
* 


--
Donna Jones, 772-0266
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
* 



Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar

2004-07-14 Thread Donna Jones
Well  thanks everyone!!  I think I've got it. :-)
Donna
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Donna
web accessibility toolbar:
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/
with regards
Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information  Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
* 


--
Donna Jones, 772-0266
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
*