[WSG] edit standard based website for client
Hi all, I was playing with a demo style master that generates quite good standard websites. If you build such websites for customers, I have noticed that opening the page in dream weaver would push everything all over the place on the screen (see screen shot), which becomes very hard for a non web person (end user, beginner) to preview, edit...unless you big in the source... let's say that you have to built sites that are going to be maintained by non-techies, and you know they are going to use Dream weaver, what should you do? Is there any other ways? Can't we have something like style master that also let you edit the content on the screen?? regards Frederic attachment: screen.jpg
Re: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/
On 8/4/05, John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am very glad that there aren't any drop down menus (I am happy to say these are an abomination on principle and should be avoided like the plague) Hi John I want to convince people not to have drop down on some of our sites at work... I am looking for some good reasons not to have them... We have some on our current site and it looks like (from the web stats) that people are actually using them a lot any comments? cheers Frederic ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/
thanks how would you rate http://www.ourbrisbane.com/ which is using a mix of drop down menu and apparent second level navigation. It could be seen as a solution to make everyone happy!? f On 8/4/05, John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frederic, I want to convince people not to have drop down on some of our sites at work... I am looking for some good reasons not to have them... We have some on our current site and it looks like (from the web stats) that people are actually using them a lot Thanks for the opportunity for letting me sound off on one of my favourite subject - Russ is now running for the corner (a quick aside, Russ and I just gave a series of workshops round Australia, and this came up once or twice, My firm views were noted. I have lots of firm views.). OK, let's start with the basic UI principles. A menu is a set of verbs, for doing actions. Navigation menus are a set of nouns for choosing content. So its akin to using a radio button in place of a checkbox they are designed for two different uses. Secondly - while menus on the OSs are designed so that traversing diagonally to a submenu will not close that submenu, JS submenus (and CSS ones too) almost invariably close unless you enter directly from the entry in the main menu relevant to them - this is why they are difficult for most users and essentially impossible for users without really good fine motor skills to access. So, 1. they break the UI guidelines on all platforms that have been in pace for over two decades for menus 2. they have serious usability issues 3. they have serious accessiiblity issues A further Usability issue is that by using them, we tend to hide contextual information about where we are in a site - we tend to know which major section we are in, but not the subsection within that section. In non trivial sites, this a major issue. Why do people use them then? I think their popularity is a symptom of style over substance, which drives a lot of web design - The image replacement techniques, misuse of flash (rarely is it used well, and even when it is used well, it tends to be used for everything (text and still graphics as well as interactive stuff) rather than jsut for what it does well). Just my not so humble appearance. John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Web: http://anna.loic.free.fr Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) a href=callto://fredericferySkype/a ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/
just a quite note, ourbrisbane.com is not my site i am just a user, living there now! Has anyone done any user testing on drop downs? Tania maybe? yes, would be interesting On 8/4/05, John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frederic, how would you rate http://www.ourbrisbane.com/ which is using a mix of drop down menu and apparent second level navigation. It could be seen as a solution to make everyone happy!? Its probably straying a little from Web standards directly, onto usability issues, but still within best practices. I would like to see all such menus as dead and buried as the blink element. I have not done extensive user testing on these kinds of menus. However, since the beginning of time, in app development, the recommendation has always been to use submenus carefully and sparingly, if in doubt, don't. While these are superficially analogous to main menus, I think in reality they are more like sub menus, so this well tested observation is worth keeping in mind. In the case of this site, I'd be inclined to ditch the drop downs, and have their contents on the pages you visit when you click What's on, and so on. Which is what actually happens, but confusingly, when you get to these pages, you get both. What happens if a user does a find (cmd-f) for some text that is in one of the drop downs? I note that in your site a lot of it is repeated, but otherwise, bnothing shows up. Users often use this technique for finding something - another good reason to avoid Image Replacement techniques also. Has anyone done any user testing on drop downs? Tania maybe? I'd be interested to know wether users use these, or avoid them like the plague - or don;t even notice them, afterall, how are we supposed to know they are flyout or dropdown menus? HTH john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Web: http://anna.loic.free.fr Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) a href=callto://fredericferySkype/a ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Dropdown menu
on your site is says What's Bad We're using CSS for another purpose than presentation. why is it that bad? On 5/24/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For people interested in à la suckerfish menus, this one now allows tabbing navigation in MSIE too: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Foreign Translations
Hi Jason I have similar requirement for some of my sites here at the Uni of technology Sydney is it indiscrete to ask you about the ball park those 2 companies gave you? offlist? do they charge per page per language? regards Frederic On 20/10/2004, at 12:30 PM, Jason Foss wrote: We've approached On-Call Interpreters in Melbourne and Precision Languages in Sydney. Both quotes came back in the same ballpark, and it's not a huge amount of text so the cost is not prohibitive. Thanks also for that link Roger - seeing it in action helps a lot. (I think... If only I could read Chinese!) BTW - what makes you think the image thing was a joke? :o) Cheers ** Jason Foss Almost Anything Desktop Publishing www.almost-anything.com.au Telephone: (07) 4927 8033 Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312 Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701 We can do almost anything! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 11:26 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations Jason, I worked on a site a while ago that required translation into 14 different languages. It was an education based portal that contained a lot of text. One of the issues we encountered was when documents were translated in a word document and then supplied to the development team to transfer into a HTML doc. It might seem like an obvious problem now, but at the time it was one of the things that got us. this site had hundreds of pages of text to translate though. Yours might be a bit different. Incidentally, do you mind telling me which translation agencies you've approached? I have worked for quite a few of them in sydney and am just a bit curious :) Hope that helps, Lisa ps haha funny joke about using a big image! :) -Original Message- From: Jason Foss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Foreign Translations Greetings! I have a client who wants part of their website translated into a few other languages, some of them Asian (Chinese Korean are a couple). I have obtained a couple of quotes from translation agencies to actually do the translations, but does anyone have experience with actually implementing this sort of thing in a website? The easy way is to make an image out of the translation and pop that there - but I don't want to do that for obvious reasons!!! I'm reading a bit about character sets and encoding, but it's all a bit abstract at this point. Any experiences or how-to references would be much appreciated! Ta Jason ** Jason Foss Almost Anything Desktop Publishing www.almost-anything.com.au Telephone: (07) 4927 8033 Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312 Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701 We can do almost anything! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** --- Frederic Fery ITD Client Web Services Manager University of Technology, Sydney. http://www.hss.uts.edu.au Monday Ph: 02 9514 9933 http://www.dab.uts.edu.au Thursday Ph: 02 9514 8937 http://www.nmh.uts.edu.au Friday Ph: 02 9514 5128 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web essentials briefing/ westciv CSS Guide
yes it was great evening Kate from IML gave me the copy she won of the starter kit - lucky me I have just tried Firefox - looks very much like Safari (only after 5 minutes of browsing) - fast, fast, fast.. What's the (standard) benefit of using firefox over safari for testing? Frederic On 03/09/2004, at 9:12 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: Thanks to everyone involved in organising last nights breifing, it was really, really great. If last night is any indication of what WE04 is going to be like, steal your mama's purse and get there guys. I was also lucky enough to win a copy of the Web Essentials starter Kit, which I've been going through this morning and it's excellent. I have to admit, I was hoping to win that free ticket to pass on to a friend - I've booked mine already!! - but sorry to say jimmy G, I'm much happier to have this CSS Guide instead (sorry mate!). See you all in a few weeks ;) lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** --- Frederic Fery ITD Client Web Services Manager University of Technology, Sydney. http://www.hss.uts.edu.au Monday Ph: 02 9514 9933 http://www.dab.uts.edu.au Thursday Ph: 02 9514 8937 http://www.nmh.uts.edu.au Friday Ph: 02 9514 5128 -- UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER: This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
