[WSG] Great Radio National Podcast on Deafness
ABC's Radio National Late Night Live program has produced a really insightful interview about Deafness. I think it's well worth a listen and might give you a good insight into deaf culture and the medical model of deafness in Australia and internationally. Deaf Culture Summary Is deafness a disadvantage or a different way of being? Members of the deaf community and medical doctors discuss the notion of a distinct 'deaf culture'. This program was originally broadcast in 1993 and won a Human Rights Award. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/feeds/lnl_20060310.mp3 25 MB runs for approximately 1 hour Lisa Herrod Senior Consultant, Usability P: 02 9467 5047 M: 0403 795 435 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Access Testing The Experts in Testing Sydney : Melbourne : Brisbane www.accesstesting.com This email is confidential, intended solely for the addressees, and may be legally privileged. If you're not the intended recipient, any access, copying, distribution, or action taken or omitted relying on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in the message are those of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of Access Testing. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Introduction and first submission
Oh I can see an Austin WSG forming already! -Original Message-From: Helmut Granda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 7:35 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Introduction and first submission Welcome Sharron.. Im in Austin too! (just in case you were wondering J ) ...helmut From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul MenardSent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:13 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Introduction and first submission Another Texan! Welcome Sharron. I'm here in Austin. - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:06:29 PMSubject: [WSG] Introduction and first submission Pardon a silly question, but is it standard procedure to introduce one's self? I stumbled upon this site several days ago and have been inundated with wonderfully interesting and helpful information ever since. I did read that I need to only use plain text, so I must first figure out how that is done on a email by email basis using Outlook Express. I am Sharron a resident of the state of Texas, USA. I am a fairly newcomer to css, validation etcetera. Regards Sharron
RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?
Linking back to the Home page via a logo placed top-left is one of those design conventions/patterns that users of various experience appear to be learning. I haven't seen novice users navigating this way, but certainly users with moderate computer/internet literacy are. However, I don't agree that the logo should have text in it (or added to it) that says 'home'. Users seem to be far more aware of standard header sections that include links such as home, about, contact, and the search field (usually top right). I think it's more consistent to leave the text link for 'Home' there. Aside from anything else, if 'Home' is added to the logo, it may interfere with branding, which is important to most clients. Christian, can you point us to an example where home text has been added to the logo on site sub-pages? I'm really interested to see the type of sites that are implementing this. Thanks and all the best, Lisa -Original Message- From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 2/23/06, Caleb Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it should. I think people are used to clicking on a logo to return to the home page and if you are going to make the logo a link - the standard location for it is home. I think we can make this a design pattern. One thing that helps is for the logo to have a bit of text like home in it on subpages of the site. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?
It's one of those design conventions that doesn't impact on the visual design of a page at all, but definitely does effect the user experience. I do think users are 'learning' to expect this type of functionality and I can't think of a reason why you wouldn't implement it. lisa -Original Message- From: Justin Owens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 9:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage? John: We have had a few small projects where we did not link back to home via the logo. In each of the usability tests, the users overwhelmingly tried clicking on the logo to return home and were very frustrated when the could not click. So, based from practical usability experience, I am going to have to say the logo should be linked. Cheers, Justin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Introduction and first submission
South by South West - specifically the Interactive festival, being held in Austin in just a few weeks. http://www.sxsw.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 11:40 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Introduction and first submission pardon me yet again, but what is this...SXSW ? - Original Message - From: Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Introduction and first submission I'm here in Austin. [...] Im in Austin too! So you'll be the ones who should advise a good BBQ there, during SXSW ;) Oh I can see an Austin WSG forming already! A joint venture with Refresh (http://refreshaustin.org/) maybe? :) -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/267 - Release Date: 2/22/2006 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Font Sizes - Best practice
Hi Terrance From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] All good questions. I read somewhere recently that a seasoned usability tester observed one person changing the font size for the very first time. I wrote about that here recently. I've run hundreds of usability sessions and that was the first time I'd ever seen a user resize text via the browser, completely unprompted. The same user also right clicked a link to open it in a new window. I have to admit, it was pretty amazing to see! When I wrote to the list about it, there were jokes about it being usability 'pr0n' - which went right over my head. Because, while I might be geeky enough to get excited about resizing text or right clicking a link, I never got into all of that! Having said that, there was some truth to it. So going back to Rimantas questions, my experience would be to answer for each: 'Very few (non-web developer users)'. But I don't have any stats on this, it's purely based on observation during usability evaluations. Hope that helps Rimantas? Rimantas Liubertas: a) How many users do know that there exists a preference for a font size. b) How many of the do know how to use it and indeed do use it. c) How many have an idea what 'px' or 'pt' is, and have an idea how big is 16pt/px. Same goes for DPI settings. d) How many users prefer to play with settings instead of doing what they were going to do in the first place (getting info)? All good questions. I read somewhere recently that a seasoned usability tester observed one person changing the font size for the very first time. We may well conclude that the answer to the above questions are not many, however, I sense that they are largely rhetorical. In any case, they illustrate very well the reason(s) why it is better to have a font that's too big than one that's too small. Lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Confusing the users... In Page Links
This is really interesting article in that it contradicts findings of a recent study we completed just 2 weeks ago. We recently conducted user testing on a site with 22 participants, which is a significant sample (often we test with 8 to 12). The demographic was 18 skilled workers and 4 employers of skilled workers. Balance of gender, spread of age and technical ability (novice to expert). We received very positive feedback from the users about in-page links, so much so that it was reported as a positive attribute of the site. In fact, about 25% commented that they liked these links, without being asked. Lisa Terrence Wood wrote: Jakob Nielsen responded to my request for clarification Jacob has used this request for his latest article http://www.useit.com/alertbox/within_page_links.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Confusing the users... In Page Links
Actually, the interesting thing is that we met one of their usability consultants O/S recently, and were told that they don't actually do much of their testing with users. That it's mostly 'Expert Reviews'. But I'm sure he tests with users if he says he does. Not casting aspersions! A friend of mine pointed out to me earlier that what I'd written was Horses for courses. which is true. User testing is really important, because while our results were true for that demographic, they may differ greatly with another. I really don't believe you can make a blanket statement that covers all users, just wanted to clarify that point. Anyway, I'll leave it at that. All this talking is giving me a hoarse throat... -Original Message- From: Mike Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 1:28 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Confusing the users... In Page Links Herrod, Lisa wrote: This is really interesting article in that it contradicts findings of a recent study we completed just 2 weeks ago. We recently conducted user testing on a site with 22 participants, which is a significant sample (often we test with 8 to 12). The demographic was 18 skilled workers and 4 employers of skilled workers. Balance of gender, spread of age and technical ability (novice to expert). We received very positive feedback from the users about in-page links, so much so that it was reported as a positive attribute of the site. In fact, about 25% commented that they liked these links, without being asked. You usability people, always with the testing! You don't know there's a 99% chance Jakob is always right? :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] site check: FONT sizes
Yes but Patrick, If you provide the user with a Javascript pop-up window that they right-click to display a pretty flash-based font-increasing app, the user could increase the font as much as they like. It's known as the 'Clydesdale Hack'. L -Original Message- From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] It's just a shame that people who pay for web design usually insist on the smaller text sizes, because historically 99% of web sites in the wild have tended to serve a slightly reduced font size... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] site check: FONT sizes
I've always wanted my own theme song. I believe I have finally arrived. -Original Message- From: Mark Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 12:27 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] site check: FONT sizes Herrod, Lisa wrote: Yes but Patrick, If you provide the user with a Javascript pop-up window that they right-click to display a pretty flash-based font-increasing app, the user could increase the font as much as they like. It's known as the 'Clydesdale Hack'. L song id=yankee-doodle Oh, Lisa Herrod came to town a-riding on a pony But then Russ bucked and threw her off because her bum was bony! Yes, web standards are such fun bringing joy and order With sarcasm and some sly digs designers we do slaughter! /song *runs and hides* ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] site check
I think that requires a purchase order felix. -Original Message- From: Felix Miata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Please tell us which combination(s) of display size and resolution and at which DPI values your description applies to: 13 on 800x600 14 on 800x600 15 on 800x600 16 on 800x600 17 on 800x600 13 on 1024x768 14 on 1024x768 15 on 1024x768 16 on 1024x768 17 on 1024x768 18 on 1024x768 13 on 1152x864 14 on 1152x864 15 on 1152x864 16 on 1152x864 17 on 1152x864 18 on 1152x864 19 on 1152x864 20 on 1152x864 21 on 1152x864 13 on 1280xX 14 on 1280xX 15 on 1280xX 16 on 1280xX 17 on 1280xX 18 on 1280xX 19 on 1280xX 20 on 1280xX 21 on 1280xX 14 on 1400x1050 15 on 1400x1050 16 on 1400x1050 17 on 1400x1050 18 on 1400x1050 19 on 1400x1050 20 on 1400x1050 21 on 1400x1050 15 on 1600x1200 16 on 1600x1200 17 on 1600x1200 18 on 1600x1200 19 on 1600x1200 20 on 1600x1200 21 on 1600x1200 22 on 1600x1200 16 on 1800x1350 17 on 1800x1350 18 on 1800x1350 19 on 1800x1350 20 on 1800x1350 21 on 1800x1350 22 on 1800x1350 17 on 1920x1440 18 on 1920x1440 19 on 1920x1440 20 on 1920x1440 21 on 1920x1440 22 on 1920x1440 17 on 2048x1536 18 on 2048x1536 19 on 2048x1536 20 on 2048x1536 21 on 2048x1536 22 on 2048x1536 Less than 13 or 800x600 Other -- Love your neighbor as yourself.Mark 12:31 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict
Lachlan Hunt wrote: The users! Please, won't somebody think of the *users*! This line reminds me of something from my favourite show when I was a kid: Fantasy Island. the plane, the plane! :) Let's just change it here to the users, the users! Can I kindly suggest you all try some usability testing on each of the sites you create? That way you will truly know what the users of your site really think. Every site is different, every user is different, every demographic varies from the last. I once tested a site on a group of novice users where all of the navigation on a particular page disappeared and was replaced with a flash animation. The only link back was below the fold. None of them had problems finding it. Also, I have to say, in testing I've found that users tend to distinguish between pop-ups used for utilities and external links, and those used for advertising and other annoying unrelated information. Usually it's only the latter that is a problem. But again, it depends so much on the individual. Don't assume anything... whether or not it's best practice. ... and with that I will gallop off on my Clydesdale, another very tall horse ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Web design education
:) good work Jimmy G, and thanks for the good press! looking forward to coming out there... you know if there was ever a chance to teach the usability I'd jump at it! lisa -Original Message- From: James Gollan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 14 February 2006 8:00 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; Russ Weakly Subject: Re: [WSG] Web design education Chris Taylor wrote: And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and apathy towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that the recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. I feel it is worth pointing out that not all educational institutions are still teaching table based design. As an educator I feel I am in a great position to make a difference at a 'grass roots' level. Students studying web design at our college (Ultimo TAFE) are exposed to about as much evangelism as they can take! There is a brief mention of tables for design, but as a primer for what they may find themselves working with in industry. Every site that they design should validate to a strict doctype (they choose between HTML and XHMTL after being presented with the arguments for and against) and use CSS for all aspects of layout. They spend an hour and a half per week studying usability and accessibility, they have access to multiple browsers, operating systems, and even JAWS (until recently :( ). First lesson they are directed to join this list! Past teachers have been such luminaries as Lisa Herrod and Roger Hudson, and, at the end of semester when they are dizzy from this barrage of evangalism, they get a good talking to from people such as Russ Weakley, Lindsay Evans, Peter Ottery, Lisa Herrod and Roger Hudson (not all on the same bill, unfortunately). I know of other TAFE's (particularly Blue Mountains) that have a similar approach toward standards. Unfortunately it often comes down to the teachers at the educational institution to promote this viewpoint, as syllabus documents are normally vague and hopelessly out of date. We are currently working of a training package that was first developed around 1997 (may have been 1999, but hell, it's old). It mentions tables for layout etc. I am sure that other institutions would be taking a similar approach to web design as us If not, hopefully the word will get out and the course will either drop off or modify its content. We do have mailing lists for educators in TAFE to try to disseminate the knowledge and facilitate discussion. I agree that there can be an apathy in educational institutions - often as a result of the institutional structure - but it is not necessarily the case. Just wanted to point that out ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Recall: [WSG] Web design education
Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, [WSG] Web design education. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Recall: [WSG] Web design education
Man you guys are tough! I've only had 3 hours sleep! I was just trying to not flood the list with personal emails! Thanks for the kind words James, as always, you know I'd love to come back into TAFE to rally the troops! -Original Message- From: James Gollan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:09 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Recall: [WSG] Web design education Mark Harris wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: Herrod, Lisa wrote: Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, [WSG] Web design education. What does that mean and where does it come from? Someone else sent me one of those recently. Generally, it means someone is using Outlook on an MS-Exchange server as their mail set up. Exchange allows you to recall messages on your local server if the recipient hasn't opened it yet. It doesn't work outside your local environment though. Of course it has a secondary effect of causing great interest in the offending email, subjecting it to a level of scrutiny that it would otherwise not enjoy! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Separate mobile content considered harmful?
Hi Josh, There's a public list you can join for the Mobile Web Initiative (MWI) which isn't high in traffic and provides really good, friendly, interesting discussion. Details for the MWI, the mail list and other info: http://www.w3.org/Mobile/ Also, there's a 'Last Call Working Draft' of the mobile web best practices document, which is still open for discussion http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-mobile-bp-20060113/ , but only for a few more days, until Feb 17. You can send to the list here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hope that helps... Lisa -Original Message- From: Joshua Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi all, This was big news a year or two ago now, but I just realised that, perhaps, a separate domain space for mobile content isn't particularly evil afterall. Tim Berners-Lee weighed in on this in May 2004 [1], and I do agree with everything outlined in that document -- but there is more. We're looking at mobile content for the Sunrise Family site, along similar lines to that on the Y!7 Sunrise WAP site [2]. 1. http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/TLD 2. http://wap.yahoo.com.au/sunrise/ -- note the evil subdomain ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Web Standards Shetland Ponies
Good point Helen, I like that this is coming up at the beginning of the year by a few people on list. The truth is that people have been scared off the list and that's a shame when the focus here is to share information and promote standards based design and development. One of the strong points of the Web Essentials Conference last year was that everyone I spoke with commented on the real sense of community and like mindedness we all shared. People are rarely impressed by arrogance or rudeness; something to consider before you press send. And that, people, is my Oprah moment for the year! lisa -Original Message- From: Helen Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2006 12:56 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Web Standards Shetland Ponies Hi folks, I've been on this list since returning from WE05 in Sydney last October, hoping that the same feeling of sharing and openness would prevail. It does to a certain extent, but the few glaring exceptions have tended to put me off posting to the list. Some people write as if there were a club, a them and us, people who get it and people who don't, and never the twain shall meet. I remember at WE05 Molly Holzschlag asking us what we called ourselves, and there were some very diverse answers (my favourite was the guy who does stuff). Elsewhere (on Flickr) I've seen her reminding us that lots of us are good at different aspects of what we do and together we make a good team. I'd like to think that this web standards community is a team, not a club where only some of us are truly web professionals. Cheers, Helen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Moral High-horse - was Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Medi a
-Original Message- From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2006 5:22 PM On 1/31/06, Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also appreciate that changing 6 or 8 or 10 years of coding practice and philosophy of web development is incredibly difficult Just wanted to come back to this... Let's not defend the hermit. If your practice has not changed in 6 years, that's not good. Sure, it's hard to change something that hasn't changed in 6 years, but nothing should be so solid in the first place. And if your habits haven't changed in 10 years, then would you even be making any money? Isn't the web only 12 years old? Christian, Let's not go here. Let's just keep this positive? Just do the best you can, focus on doing good work and spreading the word. There's no need to judge people. Everyone has a choice to work the way they want to. It may not be the best, or your way, but you don't know their reasons and they may be trying their best. If not, at least it's less competition for you! :) Cheers / Lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Justify this
what are you applying it to? a heading or a paragraph of text? -Original Message- From: Paul Noone To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: 15/12/05 14:18 Subject: [WSG] Justify this Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on this one. I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this just work through browser quirks? text-align: center justify; -- Paul A Noone Webmaster, ASHM [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Justify this
Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of usability/readability.
Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)
-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this
Hi Lachlan,
Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified
text
for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.
Thanks anyway.
--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this
Paul Noone wrote:
Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on
this one.
No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're
looking
for.
I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've
applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But
can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this
just work through browser quirks?
text-align: center justify;
If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug. That property should
be
ignored by a conforming browser. Centred and justified text are
mutually
exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the box,
but
have the text justified within. In which case, this should do the
trick:
p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }
Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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**
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**
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**
RE: [WSG] Justify this
no, I'm a comedian every day, it's just that I don't post every day :P
but seriously, are you adding paragraphs of justified text to the page...?
(irrespective of which element you're using to mark up).
-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 15:00
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this
Everyone's a comedian today. :P
T'was purely an aesthetic venture for a client and one which I'll now
gladly
leave behind. They're getting pre tags and they're just going to have
to
live with it. :)
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:59 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org '
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this
Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of
usability/readability.
Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)
-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this
Hi Lachlan,
Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified
text
for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.
Thanks anyway.
--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this
Paul Noone wrote:
Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on
this one.
No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're
looking
for.
I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've
applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But
can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this
just work through browser quirks?
text-align: center justify;
If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug. That property should
be
ignored by a conforming browser. Centred and justified text are
mutually
exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the box,
but
have the text justified within. In which case, this should do the
trick:
p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }
Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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RE: [WSG] Justify this
We're talking about paragraphs of text here.
It's harder to read, presents 'rivers of white' running through the text as
lines stretch and contract to fit the line. it's unnatural. it's probably
unaustralian somewhere too :)
some links:
Rivers of white:
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/cognitive.cfm
More (where roger is referenced)
http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_t
extjustify.hcsp
lisa
-Original Message-
From: Joshua Street
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 15:07
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this
Really? Why not?
I wouldn't have said that of justified text, but maybe my response is
an aesthetic one rather than a conscious approach to readability. Is
it something to do with not being able to find the line you were on at
the end/beginning as easily?
(And if we're going to go down this path, what of non-fixed-width
sites, justified or not?)
Not attacking, just... curious. Because I think justified text LOOKS
nicer (n.b. not neccessarily more readable... just more enjoyable to
read.)
Josh
On 12/15/05, Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of
usability/readability.
Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)
-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this
Hi Lachlan,
Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified
text
for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.
Thanks anyway.
--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this
Paul Noone wrote:
Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on
this one.
No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're
looking
for.
I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've
applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick.
But
can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this
just work through browser quirks?
text-align: center justify;
If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug. That property
should
be
ignored by a conforming browser. Centred and justified text are
mutually
exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the
box,
but
have the text justified within. In which case, this should do the
trick:
p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }
Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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--
Joshua Street
http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
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RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Ok. let's just take a step back and put this all in perspective: We already have a rating system with A - AAA conformence and the pretty badges to go with it. In Australia we have HREOC, and we know there's been a successful test case, which was widely publicised. Who really pays attention to the badges? Site users or other developers? And do they make the site more accessible, more usable? no. Is there any evidence to suggest that a site receives more traffic as a result of these badges? Do users actually seek out these sites? Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear... to those who are interested. We work this way because it's best practice and the right thing to do; it's faster and more efficient, we're good people (for the most part), who care about quality, accessibility, usability etc. surely you're not doing it for the elephant stamp? lisa -Original Message- From: Patrick H. Lauke To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: 7/12/05 9:37 Subject: Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards Peter Williams wrote: 1 star for content to markup ratio 1 star for validation of markup and css These two should be able to be automated, just like the w3c validator. 1 star for accessibility 1 star for semantic markup 1 star for ? suggestions from the audience required. These three are probably hard/impossible to assess programatically. 5 stars is the best. And who would award the stars? Or are you thinking of a self-assessment scheme like the W3C? Hmm...let me think of the plethora of sites I've seen that claim WCAG AAA and are nowhere near even A (e.g. having alt=image on each image, thus passing automatic validation)... Let the market regulate itself. Let standards-compliant markup sites take over because of their benefits actually manifesting themselves (easier to maintain, faster, etc). We don't need yet another badge...imho of course. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Javascript dependant devices
Hi List, can anyone point me to an up to date list of browsers and devices that either do not support Javascript or whose functionality is impeded by JS? thanks, Lisa Herrod Usability Analyst P: 02 9467 5047 M: 0403 795 435 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Access Testing The Experts in Testing Sydney : Melbourne : Brisbane www.accesstesting.com This email is confidential, intended solely for the addressees, and may be legally privileged. If you're not the intended recipient, any access, copying, distribution, or action taken or omitted relying on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in the message are those of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of Access Testing. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2. 0
Is anyone aware of the proposed date WCAG 2.0 will replace 1.0? -Original Message- From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:03 PM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 From the W3C The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) Working Group has released Working Drafts of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 [1] and HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0 [2] and a First Public Working Draft of Understanding WCAG 2.0 [3]. Following WCAG makes Web content more accessible to the vast majority of users, including people with disabilities and older users, using many different devices including a wide variety of assistive technology. Read about the Web Accessibility Initiative [4]. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-20051123/ [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/ [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/ [4] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ Thanks Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] University textbook or other resources?
Lloyd, can you tell us the university, the course/faculty and the year you did that course? Just to put it in context. By no means as a way of shaming them into the present... -Original Message- From: Lloyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 3:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] University textbook or other resources? Ted, I am not an instructor - I am a University student. For the one web class I have done so far at University (Doing an Internet Computing degree at the end of my first year) I was lucky enough to learn HTML 3. Unclosed and capitalised tags are what this stuff is all about I was told with authority. And using CSS in the first assignment? No that is beyond the scope of the assignment (But we were allowed inline styles in the second assignment). Sorry for the sarcasm but I dream of a lecturer covering things like accessibility, especially with decent books and knowledgeable and interested tutors :-P Lloyd On 11/23/05, Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lloyd, are you an instructor? If so, check with the book publishers for instructor test books. I was able to get one of Molly H's books to see if it was appropriate for a class and they are happy to send you others. Zeldman's book isn't accessibility oriented but is a great foundation for students. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lloyd Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 4:42 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] University textbook or other resources? Hi, Have you considered Building Accessible Websites by Joe Clark? You can read it for free online. http://www.joeclark.org/book/ :-) Lloyd On 11/23/05, ivanovitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Folks I've been asked if there are useful university-focused textbooks or other resources suitable for teaching accessible web design. So far 'Effective website development' (Darlington) and 'Principles of web site design' (Skalr) have been proposed as possible options. Thoughts? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney next yea r?
No, you're thinking of the finn brothers and 'the piano' -Original Message- From: Miles Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 3:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney next year? Someone once told me that New Zealand was a country, and not a state of Australia. I didn't believe them - I mean, we made Lord of the Rings and Russell Crowe, didn't we? :) Cheers, Miles. http://www.port80.asn.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sigurd Magnusson Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 11:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney next year? Webstock in May 2006 is hosted at a capital city--Wellington--and you guys probably treat NZ as a state :P Its going to be absolutely amazing -- Check out http://www.Webstock.org.nz Siggy -- Cade Whitbourn wrote: I know it's early but... Anybody know of any good training courses or events that are being held in Sydney (or the other capital cities) next year on web standards/best practice web design/usability etc (other than WE06 and the regular wsg meetings?) Cheers, C a d e W h i t b o u r n Web Designer - Web Projects and Business Development Australian Stock Exchange www.asx.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
now I just want to find a way to use it because it sounds so good! -Original Message- From: kvnmcwebn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2005 12:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] jump menu method Nice script. What sort of attribution would you like if I borrow it? It is brilliant Lachlan i'd like to use it to if you don't mind. -best -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.
This is a great article Terrance, and while interesting from a design / technology perspective, I think the human side of this story is more important. I'm sure everyone who saw Doug Bowmans presentation at WE05 'Zooming out of the trenches' http://we05.com/podcast/ was incredibly moved by his presentation - I heard stories of tears. After all, building to standards is really about equity isn't it? I don't think anyone here would disagree that the equitable delivery of and access to information and education is every persons right. It would be great if we (WSG listers) could come together to work on a project like this - we all have such great contacts, it would be a very powerful thing to do. I've been wanting to do something like this for a long time, if you are interested too, please contact me. lisa -Original Message- From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 9:28 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] why liquid layout is important. Sorry if this has been commented on in this forum: http://chronicle.com/free/2005/11/2005111602t.htm 10 Million 7.5in small screens, pretty sure that will change the face of the browser market. -- Terrence Wood ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] $100 laptop WAS: why liquid layout is important.
Well the idea of the $100 laptop is to 'work with developing nations' to provide low cost access to knowledge via the Internet. What I'm doing is putting this out to our community to see who is interested in being involved in a project like this. Naturally we would need to discuss exactly what it means, but in a nutshell, finding a way in which we can contribute and give something back. We all work on the web and reap the benefits of it daily and I have seen first hand (in Indonesia) the impact knowledge and access to the web can have. It's incredibly empowering. Happy to continue this discussion but not sure if this is the right place... Is this OT? -Original Message- From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 1:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] why liquid layout is important. It would be great if we (WSG listers) could come together to work on a project like this - we all have such great contacts, it would be a very powerful thing to do. I've been wanting to do something like this for a long time, if you are interested too, please contact me. lisa Wait, what exactly is the project you are talking about? Tell me more. -- -- C Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] $100 laptop WAS: why liquid layout is important.
My concern for MIT's project is whether or not internet access will be managed by the governments in some of these countries. I agree this is an important consideration, but separate to this discussion. as you say: But regardless of this concern, there's definitely a need. Sharing information for these children on how to stay safe on the internet, how to find information, how to use accessibility tools, etc. Kids are really smart nowadays, if we give them the right information, they'll really benefit from it. I worked in indonesia for a short time teaching basic internet skills to a very poor school for deaf children. if they can pick up HTML, (which, remember is in english) taught by someone with basic indonesian and little Indo sign language, imagine what they can do with propper support! our main issue was that of the 6 or 7 computers they had, each had completely different o/s, browser, software etc. they could not afford to access the internet or visit an internet cafe (though we did find the funds for 2 visits). They picked it up so quickly and in a couple of weeks were creating small web sites. the kids were aged between 11 and 18. They were clearly amazed at what they were doing. Education and knowledge is very empowering, particularly for people considered 'disabled' and in a third world country. -Original Message- From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 2:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] $100 laptop WAS: why liquid layout is important. On 11/20/05, Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well the idea of the $100 laptop is to 'work with developing nations' to provide low cost access to knowledge via the Internet. What I'm doing is putting this out to our community to see who is interested in being involved in a project like this. Naturally we would need to discuss exactly what it means, but in a nutshell, finding a way in which we can contribute and give something back. We all work on the web and reap the benefits of it daily and I have seen first hand (in Indonesia) the impact knowledge and access to the web can have. It's incredibly empowering. Happy to continue this discussion but not sure if this is the right place... Is this OT? I think it is on topic. I'm interested in hearing ideas other WSG members have for making something like this work. My concern for MIT's project is whether or not internet access will be managed by the governments in some of these countries. Google is part of it, and Google has already followed China's wishes to censor content on searches in China. How valuable is the internet to users in China, compared to users in countries where access is unrestricted? Will these children in the countries MIT is targeting be using a managed, censored network, or will they be able to learn about things their government might not want them to know about? But regardless of this concern, there's definitely a need. Sharing information for these children on how to stay safe on the internet, how to find information, how to use accessibility tools, etc. Kids are really smart nowadays, if we give them the right information, they'll really benefit from it. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
can you send a link to an example of one of these? thanks, lisa -Original Message- From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 4:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] jump menu method Just a thought, but if all the links are counties within a greater whole, why not use a happy map image map interface? Thats a-okay standards-wise, and degrades nicely into a list of links, and looks cute for visitors. Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com Terrence Wood wrote: Lachlan Hardy said: build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform that into a dropdown list for those with JS. Consider it a 'white lie of web design' or call it 'progressive enhancement'. nice solution. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders
for the record, I'm still following the thread. this isn't even close to finished. -Original Message- From: Geoff Deering To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: 11/18/05 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders Patrick Lauke wrote: Geoff Deering ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders
I ran a usability evaluation last week where some (few) of the form elements had place-holding text and others didn't. This caused problems as you might expect as users scanned over those fields thinking that as they were already populated, they were therefore optional. Of course they were mandatory and caused validation errors. This was more an issue of inconsistent design, though it does illustrate possible usability/accessibility issues. Lisa -Original Message- From: Jonathan O'Donnell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 14 November 2005 11:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders Leaving it there can be a problem. I have seen a demonstration (at a Melbourne WSG meeting, no less) where the agent placed the cursor at the end of the place-holding text without reading it. There is a real danger that the user will enter text without knowing that the place-holding text is there. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders
Yes this is an interesting point. And it differs from visually highlighting a field once the user has encountered a form validation error. For example, a user misses or incorrectly fills out a mandatory field and when the form is re-presented, those fields are visually highlighted with a background colour. In this example, I find users actually like this method and find it useful/helpful. -Original Message- From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Another* thing I see that is happening in design a lot lately is that input fields are in greyed background by design, not function. What this is telling the user is that that field is *read only*. That is the standard way operating systems manage read only data, and the same way it is done on web based systems. It's absolutely sending the wrong message to users, when the input field is open to accept data input. If users are used to working on complex data retrieval systems, where there is a lot of read only data, then they will be confused by this because this type of design breaks the standard by which GUI's function. If this type of design continues, it will only confuse users more. -- Geoff Deering ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Font resizing
last week in a usability evaluation I saw my very first participant increase the font size of their own accord. No prompting what so ever. Profile: Male, 36, works in finance, uses internet every day I nearly fell off my chair. It was such a rare moment. He then right clicked a link to open it in a new window. I had to stop myself leaving the room to post to the list, it was that exciting... fortunately I have it on DVD and can watch it to my hearts content... :) -Original Message- From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Personally, I see this as a matter of educating the user and making browser controls more obvious ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?
well if they don't have an understanding of coding to standards, it appears that a couple of their toes are actually missing. In which case, you certainly won't be standing on them. -Original Message- From: Paul Noone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 10:10 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation? The programmers dont want me to do any coding or as little as possible-so as not to step on thier toes. Don't just step, STOMP! If they're not going to do their job right then let it be known there is someone who can...and provide the reasons why. At the end of the day, if it can save time and money, then any decent manager will go for it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Top Ten Web Design Mistakes - yeah, right!
-Original Message- From: Alan Trick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 5:13 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Top Ten Web Design Mistakes - yeah, right! The fact that Nielsen only surveyed his subscribers, most of whom are quite different from Joe User, probably provided different result than if more 'average' testing was done. Not neccesarily. It depends on what you're testing and how you're testing it. Depends on the needs of that user group compared with another. However, I don't really think that's a bad thing. I think it's actually better that way. What you're really looking at is comparing novice and expert users. Both are completely valid. What is important is that the user profile for example, 'expert' or whatever you define is compatible with the objectives of the evaluation. So if Nielsens objective was to elicit feedback from experienced users, and that's who he tested with, then it's the right way to do it. not neccesarily better. The greatest issue that I have with usability testing and such is that they rely on the flawed assumption that the users know what they want. Don't fool youself. From my experience, if you ask Joe User what an Office program should look like, he'll describe what MS Office looks like, and if you ask what a search engine should look he'll say (in more or less words) like Google. That's why a lot of effort is made to ensure that questions are phrased properly, don't lead the user etc. this is a huge subject and another conversation. Usability testing does not rely on the assumption that users know what they want. Mine doesn't anyway :) Have a great weekend everyone :) Lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Hi Peter, Thanks for posting this to the list, I'm sure it will be interesting to many of us on list... Can you tell us when you conducted the research, the duration of the study and how you collected the information? All the best, lisa -Original Message- From: Peter Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2005 9:20 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point. Hi there, This may help with your font compatibility problem. http://www.visibone.com/font/FontResults.html Cheers, Peter Johnson --- Peter Johnson Macromedia Flash Developer Missing Link NZ Ltd. [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!
I think he's really just trying to stir up something controversial and attract people to his site. Surely anyone who was really serious about their own reputation and business would actually think about what they were saying, and research their point(less) before posting it... wouldn't they? -Original Message- From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 8:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! -Original Message- From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. http://www.killersites.com/newsletters/lt/t_go.php?i=10e=MTI zNDM=l=http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the- web-standards-are-for-browsers/ ? I agree with him in the point that some people take Web Standards way too far. Just think of the endless discussions on what the semantically correct way is to mark up breadcrumbs. As if the world would find its end if I decided to mark up my breadcrumbs in p's instead of ul's or ol's or dt's... However, the guy who wrote the article doesn't really have a clue what he is talking about. He seems to be trying to attack Web Standards just for the sake of opening his mouth. There is a huge difference between using tables and using floats, but he obviously does not get that. The article he quoted (by Vincent Flanders) makes a much better point: don't believe Web Standards, Usability and tableless CSS is the ultimate way to create a fantastic website. It's tools, nothing more. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
That's a great idea, I'd love to put some faces to names/weird user names :) Lisa -Original Message- From: Webmaster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 2:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? Anyone interested in a group catch-up? I thought it might be nice to put some faces to all these names. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
Did you come out last year Kazuhito? I remember someone from Japan came out last year. :) lisa -Original Message- From: Kazuhito Kidachi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 2:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? 2005/9/27, Webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? +1 from Japan. If you find me at official or final party, please talk to me - my English is not good, though! -- Kazuhito Kidachi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
oh spoil sport! can't we do both...? :) Just hold up your middle 3 fingers in a 'W' shape and touch tips as a secret handshake. ok, just kidding. Seriously, I was... -Original Message- From: Andrew Krespanis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 3:28 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? How about a secret password that you have to sneak into the first 60 seconds of meeting someone :)..? Or how about everyone interested just bites the bullet and posts their photo contact details like I just did? This secret handshake/signalling in crowded room nonsense isn't going to work. We either need know who we're looking for or decide on a place and time to meet up. -Andrew :) N.젲ȨX+ࠆi nZᅝ֫v+휢h牡ym㶟j�l.f.寉wq(b荞(,)උazX)i ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines
Hello, I'm looking for some examples of standards based visual design guidelines and wondering if you can point me to anything you've seen or personally use in your design process...? If it is something you use during design development, let me know that too, as I'm interested to see how developers/designers apply standards from a purely visual perspective. Thanks and looking forward to hearing your story, lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines
Hi David, yes I've done that. I'm more interested in hearing directly from designers who have a focus on standards. Lisa -Original Message- From: David Laakso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2005 11:46 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines Herrod, Lisa wrote: Hello, I'm looking for some examples of standards based visual design guidelines and wondering if you can point me to anything you've seen or personally use in your design process...? If it is something you use during design development, let me know that too, as I'm interested to see how developers/designers apply standards from a purely visual perspective. Thanks and looking forward to hearing your story, lisa Google for 'standards based visual design guidelines' and you might find some stuff. ~dL -- David Laakso http://www.dlaakso.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines
Thanks Ben :) Just to clarify this for the list - I have googled this extensively. I'm more interested from your personal perspective and experience. all the best, lisa -Original Message- From: Ben Wrighton - StraightForward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2005 12:38 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines I had a quick Google. It is difficult because 'web design' is (often wrongly IMHO) used to describe IA, UI and front-end website development. But these were kinda interesting. http://www.webdesignpractices.com/ http://usability.gov/guidelines/designconsid.html http://www.e-government.govt.nz/docs/web-guidelines-v1/chapter4.html http://www.grantasticdesigns.com/tips.html Hope you find them useful Lisa :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2005 2:05 p.m. To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines Hi David, yes I've done that. I'm more interested in hearing directly from designers who have a focus on standards. Lisa -Original Message- From: David Laakso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2005 11:46 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines Herrod, Lisa wrote: Hello, I'm looking for some examples of standards based visual design guidelines and wondering if you can point me to anything you've seen or personally use in your design process...? If it is something you use during design development, let me know that too, as I'm interested to see how developers/designers apply standards from a purely visual perspective. Thanks and looking forward to hearing your story, lisa Google for 'standards based visual design guidelines' and you might find some stuff. ~dL -- David Laakso http://www.dlaakso.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa -Original Message- From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
John! I wasn't talking about me! I'm not there anymore LOL I won't name names, but I will say they're lurking about on this list... you know who you are people :) I'm starting to see a new reality show... something like 'Rock school' but it would be called 'standards school' - john perhaps you can take over Gene simmons role...? :) -Original Message- From: John Allsopp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign Then again, I used to teach at Northern Sydney IT - they aren't all lucky enough to get you Lisa :-) john On 08/09/2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa -Original Message- From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators
I can tell you from my experience studying/teaching web site design and development at TAFE and personally studying at Masters Level in Interactive Multimedia, that the top, conscientious students I saw graduating from TAFE definitely had practical skills and knowledge advanced enough that they could have breezed through the prac subjects in the Masters. absolutely without a doubt. -Original Message- From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 11:12 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign I'm actually a real champion of the TAFE system, the skills I learned at my last TAFE course lasted me 15 years, absolutely brilliant. -Original Message- From: Peter Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign From: Herrod, Lisa There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach... Maybe TAFE is better than most other educational institutes. I did some welding courses quite a few years ago and the instructors we had were brilliant practitioners and knew the theory well too. They had all had long years in the trade (boilermaking). -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
I think this is pretty good and easy to follow: http://www.w3schools.com/ Also I know Westciv have just begun their XHTML Free online tutorial, http://www.westciv.com/courses/free/index.html Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 29 August 2005 10:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners I'll shortly be teaching a class in HTML basics. I'm confident in teaching them the *absolute* basics, but if the people in the class want to go on to be coders, which online resources would you recommend? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: 'users with disabilities' WAS: [WSG] New front page for http: //ab c.net.au/
Hi Leslie, Thanks for that, it's interesting to hear from the states about this and I was hoping that there were some Deaf members on the list :) It would be great to hear from anyone here in Australia on this point too. Just to clarify my point, I was using 'big D' Deaf for culturally Deaf and 'little d' deaf for (as you said) in reference to the broader deaf population. In my experience (I have worked professionally as an Auslan interpreter for about ten years) 'hearing imparied' is used here (australia) for culturally deaf people too (I wasn't clear there). I've noticed that 'hard of hearing' is not really used by younger deaf in the deaf community but also by older non-culturally deaf ie deaf through age, but I could be wrong and am happy to be corrected by any aus deaf. I can really only speak locally and am not sure about the states. Hearing impaired is a term used by people who don't realize or understand what they are talking about, to describe Deaf or hard of hearing people. This is definitely not my experience here in australia, in fact, I used to work for a department that was known as the 'Deaf and Hearing Impaired' support unit at TAFE (college here) that managed interpreters and note takers and other educational support. The word document [Issues in Educational Settings for Deaf Students and Interpreters] http://tinyurl.com/8ffee uses 'Hearing Impaired' frequently and is written by an Australian Deaf author, so I suspect it is a regional difference. All the best, lisa -Original Message- From: Leslie Riggs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 4:00 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: 'users with disabilities' WAS: [WSG] New front page for http://ab c.net.au/ 'Users with Disabilities' is better than 'disabled users' generally, however, when referring to deaf users, it depends on whether the user is culturally deaf or not. Culturally Deaf users are those that use sign language for communication and belong to the deaf community. They're referred to as the big 'D' deaf. In my experience, most Deaf users would not like to be referred to as disabled as they do not consider themselves to be disabled. This is Important to note Other deaf users are usually referred to as hearing impaired or deaf (no capital). Ahem, being that I am Deaf and very actively involved in local and state-level communities in my little part of the U.S., I can tell you that there are precious few people who do not consider themselves Deaf who also would bristle at the term hearing impaired. Hard of hearing is a better accepted term. The term deaf isn't real widely used except when referring to a broad population, such as when talking about the deaf community. Hearing impaired is a term used by people who don't realize or understand what they are talking about, to describe Deaf or hard of hearing people. Regarding the preference for dropdowns, that doesn't surprise me. Deaf and hard of hearing people (especially those fluent in a sign language - ASL, BSL, USL) are exceptionally visually oriented. When a menu drops down rather than flying out, it's easier to read and navigate down. The information related to that menu item is closer to the item than when additional menu choices fly out to the side (with multiple choices listed vertically), which is a bit jarring. It's also less effort than to try to keep the mouse within the hot spot to navigate sideways, then down to the desired link. Leslie Riggs Hope that helps and is not too off topic?? Lisa Terrence Wood wrote: I wonder why people with hearing disabilities requested dropdowns, is this result (statistically) valid, or just observed within your group? btw, I'm pretty sure the correct term to use users with disabilities. kind regards ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Accessible/Usable Navigation WAS: New front page for http://abc. net.au/
Andreas With regard to accessibility and usability testing, I'm very interested in your comments about Deaf users in particular. Especially relating to navigation, including Flyouts and Dropdowns. Did the Deaf users you interviewed indicate why they had a preference for drop-downs? From a usability/accessibility perspective, what made this type of navigation more appealing to them? What accessibility/usability issues did they have with the navigation you were testing (can we have a link to view it?) How many users with 'hearing disabilities' did you interview, and what was the range of deafness - ie hearing impaired to culturally/signing Deaf? All the best, Lisa Herrod -Original Message- From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 12:55 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/ Actually we have done some usability testing with a range of disabled users recently. The site we tested did not have any dropdowns, however in particular users with hearing disabilities and cognitive disabilities asked for dropdowns to be added. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
'users with disabilities' WAS: [WSG] New front page for http://ab c.net.au/
'Users with Disabilities' is better than 'disabled users' generally, however, when referring to deaf users, it depends on whether the user is culturally deaf or not. Culturally Deaf users are those that use sign language for communication and belong to the deaf community. They're referred to as the big 'D' deaf. In my experience, most Deaf users would not like to be referred to as disabled as they do not consider themselves to be disabled. This is Important to note Other deaf users are usually referred to as hearing impaired or deaf (no capital). Hope that helps and is not too off topic?? Lisa Terrence Wood wrote: I wonder why people with hearing disabilities requested dropdowns, is this result (statistically) valid, or just observed within your group? btw, I'm pretty sure the correct term to use users with disabilities. kind regards ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/ (Deafness and Con tent Length)
This is a really interesting thread and I have to say I've been waiting years for something solid on deafness and accessibility and usability to show it's pretty face here :) I'd like to expand on something Andreas wrote about deafness and content length. I completely agree with your comments and would like to say that as much as Content Length is a usability issue for all users, it is definitely an accessibility issue for many Deaf and hearing impaired (HI) users (as well as other groups). I am not speaking on behalf of any deaf users nor am I generalising that this applies to all deaf/HI users; the following is just based on my experience working in the deaf community. The link between deafness/usability/accessibility/content length is (as Andreas wrote) largely based on educational experiences. This is for two reasons: 1) Sign language is not a gestural version of English. The grammar and syntax is completely different. Native Auslan (Australian sign language) users have English as a second Language. This is one reason why lengthy content is a usability/accessibility issue; Users have to wade through content presented in their second language and pick out key words. 2) For a long time, many deaf students were removed from class to attend speech classes. This meant that they often missed fundemental lessons on English, math, science, etc while being 'taught' how to say something they couldn't hear. Another reason why content may be difficult to comprehend in lengthy passages, and why point form is excellent. 3) Sign language does not contain any where near as many synonyms as english, so often the same sign will be used for many different english words. There are other reasons too, but I think this will give you some idea. I guess the main point to get from this is that Sign language (Auslan, not signed English, is not based on English and does not follow the same grammar as English. So while content length is a usability issue for a broad range of users, it can be an accessibility issue for Deaf/HI users for a similar though different reason. Hope that has been of some interest ;) lisa -Original Message- From: Donna Maurer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 2:15 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/ On 4 Aug 2005 at 13:55, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Me wrote: But the users that did request the dropdowns mentioned following reasons: - Reduce mouse-clicks (especially on machines with slow Internet connection) - Get a quick, detailed overview of the content in all sections - Less content to read through The last point was in particular valuable for deaf users and users with reading impairment. As the website we tested had a lot of content on it, some users felt uncomortable with pages of long content. That's interesting. Except for the example you gave (in a later post about deafness and the resulting learning difficulties) I wouldn't like to infer a general link between hearing impairment and content length. Your learnings entirely reflect my experiences usability testing with people without an impairment, so I'd take the comments as general usability issues, not particular issues for people with a hearing impairment. Donna -- Donna Maurer Maadmob Interaction Design e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: http://maadmob.com.au/ blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AOL IM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/ (Deafness and Con tent Length)
Sorry that should have said this is for a FEW reasons. -Original Message- From: Herrod, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 2:55 PM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/ (Deafness and Con tent Length) The link between deafness/usability/accessibility/content length is (as Andreas wrote) largely based on educational experiences. This is for two reasons: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Form Validation error
you've closed the opening tag: form method=post action=../cgi-bin/mcart/mof.cgi / :) Lisa Herrod -Original Message- From: tee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 11:10 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Form Validation error Hi, I run a validation for my order form and it gave me error :end tag for element form which is not open /form But I do have open form tag: form method=post action=../cgi-bin/mcart/mof.cgi / div id=formContentContent here/div /form My Doctype is xhtml transitional. Also, have anybody done the e-commerce site that is fully xhtml validated? I find it too much a challenge! Tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
It's also useful for users of other assistive technology devices, such as head wands or those with limited mobility, as it reduces the number of 'tabs' a user is required to make to move further down the page. lisa -Original Message- From: Sarah Peeke (XERT) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 14 April 2005 12:12 PM To: WSG Subject: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility HI all I have just come across a css tip at http://www.htmldog.com/guides/htmladvanced/links/ which involves a css method to render the 'skip navigation' link invisible. My question is: Does anyone else use this method, or another similar technique? Many sites I have seen *retain this link's visibility* despite it being intended (AFAIK) primarily for screen readers. Thanks Sarah -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] flash and accessabilty
Patrick wrote: But just to reiterate: even if you follow the recommended practices in Bob's document... Cna you please point me to this document, I seem to have missed it with all that was going on here over the weekend. Thanks, lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Accessibility Checklist in Simple English
Hi list I need to do some brief training at short notice on the WCAG priority 1 checkpoints and was just wondering if anyone had seen it in simple english. ie. for people who really don't have any coding experience? thanks in advance Lisa Regards Lisa Herrod Usability Analyst 02 9467 5047 --- ...OLE_Obj... Sydney Melbourne 112 Alexander Street28 Drummond Street Crows Nest NSW 2065 Carlton South VIC 3053 P: 02 9467 5000 P: 03 9669 1700 F: 02 9467 5020 F: 03 9669 1799 www.testingcentre.com This e-mail is confidential, intended solely for the addressees, and may be legally privileged. If you're not the intended recipient, any access, copying, distribution, or action taken or omitted relying on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New music site barring non IE browsers
I thought Firefox was the (or better)! Regards Lisa Herrod Usability Analyst 02 9467 5047 --- Access Testing Centre Sydney Melbourne 112 Alexander Street28 Drummond Street Crows Nest NSW 2065 Carlton South VIC 3053 P: 02 9467 5000 P: 03 9669 1700 F: 02 9467 5020 F: 03 9669 1799 www.testingcentre.com This e-mail is confidential, intended solely for the addressees, and may be legally privileged. If you're not the intended recipient, any access, copying, distribution, or action taken or omitted relying on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. -Original Message- From: Dave Rayner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] New music site barring non IE browsers I went to check out http://hmv.ninemsn.com.au using Firefox and it gave me this: The site you have tried to enter requires Internet Explorer 6 (or better) with Windows Media Player 7 (or better) on Windows XP, 2000, Me or 98. Click Here to use our Doctor Download application to help you check your configuration alternatively Email Dr Download. Please try again. Just when i was feeling confident about the web's progression, i see that. It goes against a few really big things that web standards and the WSG is fighting for. I sent an email the 'doctor' just to show how disappointed i was. That'll teach 'em. dave rayner freshweb www.freshweb.com.au m. 0409 037 250 p. +61 2 89202344 f. +61 2 89203008 This message is confidential, and may contain proprietary or legally privileged information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it immediately. Internet communications are not secure. You should scan this message and any attachments for viruses. Under no circumstances do we accept liability for any loss or damage which may result from your receipt of this message or any attachments. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...
This is an interesting point and a good example of where usability evaluations and user-centred design can complement good design and technical skill. Paul said: Since navigation presents a jargon problem, perhaps menu or another less techie term might work And What's an appropriate metaphor for a navigation menu if you're not a programmer and if your interaction with the menu is functional auditory and not visual? We are all programmers/coders/techies to some extent. So many words become a part of our vernacular over time and we often forget they mean something very different to non-techies, who may, nonetheless, be experienced web users. As an example, 'FAQ'. Ask around for a definition and I bet you'll be surprised by the variety of responses you get. Lisa -Original Message- From: Paul Novitski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ... Since navigation presents a jargon problem, perhaps menu or another less techie term might work: Skip past menu Jump over menu What's an appropriate metaphor for a navigation menu if you're not a programmer and if your interaction with the menu is functional auditory and not visual? Also I wonder whether a concise table of contents for the page would work: Jump to: - page content - page menu - website menu - page footer Once users became accustomed to such a convention, they would know to take the first option most of the time. And better than proceeding by speculation and trial error, of course, would be to poll visually-impaired users to find out what metaphors wording they'd prefer. I imagine this has already been done...? Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links
ahhh... I believe ladies and gents, that's what's known in the business as an Intervention. russ, just move towards the light... -Original Message- From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:15 PM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a breadcrumb in a list? The usual gt; seperators seem ideal, and if you disable styles it is still a breadcrumb; what is the obsession with putting everything in a list? OK, I admit it... I am obsessed with lists and I hereby intend to use lists for EVERYTHING from now on - even if pointless and counter-productive: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/list-obsessed/ (view source) Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations
Jason, I worked on a site a while ago that required translation into 14 different languages. It was an education based portal that contained a lot of text. One of the issues we encountered was when documents were translated in a word document and then supplied to the development team to transfer into a HTML doc. It might seem like an obvious problem now, but at the time it was one of the things that got us. this site had hundreds of pages of text to translate though. Yours might be a bit different. Incidentally, do you mind telling me which translation agencies you've approached? I have worked for quite a few of them in sydney and am just a bit curious :) Hope that helps, Lisa ps haha funny joke about using a big image! :) -Original Message- From: Jason Foss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Foreign Translations Greetings! I have a client who wants part of their website translated into a few other languages, some of them Asian (Chinese Korean are a couple). I have obtained a couple of quotes from translation agencies to actually do the translations, but does anyone have experience with actually implementing this sort of thing in a website? The easy way is to make an image out of the translation and pop that there - but I don't want to do that for obvious reasons!!! I'm reading a bit about character sets and encoding, but it's all a bit abstract at this point. Any experiences or how-to references would be much appreciated! Ta Jason ** Jason Foss Almost Anything Desktop Publishing www.almost-anything.com.au Telephone: (07) 4927 8033 Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312 Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701 We can do almost anything! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations
Just to repeat what I was saying before, be really careful with the word docs. you really need to have one of the translators proof the text on screen to check for errors including strange characters and word breaks etc. -Original Message- From: Jason Foss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 12:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations They are being provided in a Word document. Do you know if you can pull Unicode out of that? Thanks! ** Jason Foss Almost Anything Desktop Publishing www.almost-anything.com.au Telephone: (07) 4927 8033 Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312 Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701 We can do almost anything! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 11:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Foreign Translations Jason, haven't got direct experience in doing this, but my gut feeling would be to encode everything in unicode (UTF-8) as it should cover most character sets required. You'll need the translated bits of text provided as unicode as well, to place within your document. Does that make sense? Patrick H. Lauke _ re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Off Topic - Usability question for WSG members
Hello all,All of us here are interested in the use of web standards for various reasons including the positive impact it has on the user experience.Add these considerations to the interface design and there's a lot of things to consider with regard to the final impact on the end user.What I'd like to know is your personal opinion of what you think impacts the user experience both positively and negatively. This might be based on testing you've done, research, reading or intuition, but whatI wantis your personal ideas on:1) The 5 most common usability issues that typically hinder a positive user experience.2) The 5 most common usability issues that typically add to a positive user experience. Listing 1 as the highest rating and 5 as the lowest rating. Also if you could indicate your role (eg web designer, programmer, educator etc) and whether or not you have completed user testing in the past, thatwould be great. My intention is to compile all answers and report back to the list once more with the final results. No respondants or the organisation for which they work will be identified personally. The information is being gathered for personal interest only and will not be used in any way for commercial use or profit.Please reply to me off-list. Thanks in advance, Lisa
RE: [WSG] Off Topic - Usability question for WSG members
Sorry everyone, I hadn't realised. Thanks for the email. Lisa -Original Message- From: Hugh Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 1:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Off Topic - Usability question for WSG members Lisa, Not answering your question, but as far as usability of the *WSG list* is concerned, please remember to use plain text emails. Sorry that you happen to be the one who cops criticism this time, but could all list members please remember *not* to use HTML emails. In your case, Lisa (and in many others) your text looks really tiny in my email program, which affects legibility. :) Hugh Todd What I'd like to know is your personal opinion of what you think impacts the user experience both positively and negatively. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
I think the key word here is choice. you can choose to open it up in a new window if that's your preference. But where it makes surfing impossible , or difficult, then it probably shouldn't be the default. Lisa -Original Message- From: Wayne Godfrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Okay, I'll stick my neck out here for a list chopping. I personally like opening a new window whenever I'm web surfing. It's something that I got into a habit or doing long ago and far away. I'm still waiting for a big, honking G5 to be sitting under my fingertips, but until that day I'm stuck on a G3 Mac at OS9 on IE5.1.7. I hate the IE interface (actually, I hate all browser interfaces) and I close it down to nothing but the address bar. The back, forward, stop and reload buttons are available in the top left hand corner, but the only one I really use is the reload button. Even with the tab browsers that I've tried, I still end up opening a new tab more often than using the back and forward buttons. This is just the way I ended up traveling the web, I'm sure that others have their own ways as well. I've discussed this with my partners and others and they all like the open a new window concept. I fully understand the other point of view and why the W3C believes what they believe. I've never been ticked off by a site opening a link in a new window, but I sure as heck have been royally unhappy with pop-up, under and through windows as well as poorly coded java script that freeze my machine or web sites that only work in IE for windows. In fact, those are much higher sins (IMHO) than opening a link in a new window... gulp On 10/5/04 7:19 PM, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Sydney WSG meeting recap
I'll go the Elephant stamp... Great work Ben and also, it was a really interesting presentation. Thanks for all the effort involved in getting clearance to show us the site too. Lisa -Original Message- From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Sydney WSG meeting recap After listening to Ben's presentation I feel he deserves a big *Gold* Star for work above and beyond the call of duty :-) Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav russ - maxdesign wrote: Another huge night tonight at the Sydney WSG with 40 people in attendance. Thank you to all who turned up. We had two presentations: Mark Stanton talked about semantically correct mark-up and Ben Bishop talked us through a recent site that has just gone live - built with web standards, of course. Great stuff! Both presentations will be available online in the near future. A big thank you to both presenters. PS. I have some lost property. Someone left behind a CD with image files (or at least that is what the label says). Contact me off-list if you think it is yours. Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] absolute positioning and screen magnifiers
Just wondering if anyone knows much about the impact of absolute positioning on people who are using screen magnifiers. see you tonight... Lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] web essentials briefing/ westciv CSS Guide
Thanks to everyone involved in organising last nights breifing, it was really, really great. If last night is any indication of what WE04 is going to be like, steal your mama's purse and get there guys. I was also lucky enough to win a copy of the Web Essentials starter Kit, which I've been going through this morning and it's excellent. I have to admit, I was hoping to win that free ticket to pass on to a friend - I've booked mine already!! - but sorry to say jimmy G, I'm much happier to have this CSS Guide instead (sorry mate!). See you all in a few weeks ;) lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0
Thanks for that Mike, It's a great page of info! Lisa -Original Message- From: Mike Foskett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0 Lisa, I've been doing a little work on this subject: Accessible form guidelines. Attaching focus to objects via with JS via the DOM. Accessible expanded help. It's still a work in progress (not that clear) but I'm happy to take critiques, suggestions, improvements, rewordings, e.t.c It'll probably be a couple of months until it's finished. http://www.webSemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_elements/ Though I'd be hard pressed to recommend tabindex at all. Hope it helps mike 2k:)2 marqueeblink [EMAIL PROTECTED] /marquee/blink http://www.webSemantics.co.uk -Original Message- From: Herrod, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 August 2004 02:53 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0 Looking for opinions on the use of javascript for input control focus and tab index, instead of actually using the 'tabindex' attribute... I understnd that incomplete browser support of tabindex might influence this choice, ie javascript. But this would then force the use of the 'name' attribute which is formally deprecated in xhtml 1.0. I guess it improves accessibility but reduces compliance. Any thoughts? Lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0
Thanks Patrick, I'd noticed it was validating with name in form elements other than 'form'. Thanks for the link too ;) Lisa -Original Message- From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 5:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0 Name is still perfectly valid for form elements (inputs, selects, etc), just not for the FORM element itself. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_forms In any case, you should be using DOM scripting (with IDs assigned to the relevant elements and getElementById or similar), which works just fine. Patrick Herrod, Lisa wrote: Looking for opinions on the use of javascript for input control focus and tab index, instead of actually using the 'tabindex' attribute... I understnd that incomplete browser support of tabindex might influence this choice, ie javascript. But this would then force the use of the 'name' attribute which is formally deprecated in xhtml 1.0. I guess it improves accessibility but reduces compliance. Any thoughts? Lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Aussie and Kiwi web standards designers
Title: RE: [WSG] Best Aussie and Kiwi web standards designers yeah, apparently these guys know what they're talking about too ;) http://www.maxdesign.com.au/ Lisa -Original Message-From: Peter Ottery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 10:31 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: [WSG] Best Aussie and Kiwi web standards designers Andy asked However I'm always on the lookout for more cool, standards compliant sites, so wondered who you guys felt which companies and individuals were turning out the best work down under? 2 that i'm pretty sure are on this list: http://www.freshweb.com.au/ http://www.glassonion.com.au/ and http://waferbaby.com/ which is related to: http://www.segpub.com.au this is just a quick blurt from my short term memory and i'm in no way affiliated with any of these. anyone else? pete
[WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0
Looking for opinions on the use of javascript for input control focus and tab index, instead of actually using the 'tabindex' attribute... I understnd that incomplete browser support of tabindex might influence this choice, ie javascript. But this would then force the use of the 'name' attribute which is formally deprecated in xhtml 1.0. I guess it improves accessibility but reduces compliance. Any thoughts? Lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
