[WSG] Great Radio National Podcast on Deafness

2006-03-20 Thread Herrod, Lisa
ABC's Radio National Late Night Live program has produced a really
insightful interview about Deafness. I think it's well worth a listen and
might give you a good insight into deaf culture and the medical model of
deafness in Australia and internationally.


Deaf Culture

Summary

Is deafness a disadvantage or a different way of being? Members of the deaf
community and medical doctors discuss the notion of a distinct 'deaf
culture'.

This program was originally broadcast in 1993 and won a Human Rights Award. 

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/feeds/lnl_20060310.mp3 25 MB runs for
approximately 1 hour


Lisa Herrod 
Senior Consultant, Usability 


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RE: [WSG] Introduction and first submission

2006-02-23 Thread Herrod, Lisa



Oh I 
can see an Austin WSG forming already!

  -Original Message-From: Helmut Granda 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 7:35 
  AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] 
  Introduction and first submission
  
  Welcome Sharron.. Im 
  in Austin too! 
  (just in case you were wondering J 
  )
  
  
  ...helmut
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul MenardSent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:13 
  PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Introduction and first 
  submission
  
  
  
  
  Another Texan! Welcome Sharron. I'm here in Austin. - 
  Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSent: Thursday, 
  February 23, 2006 2:06:29 PMSubject: [WSG] Introduction and first 
  submission
  
  Pardon a silly question, but is it 
  standard procedure to introduce one's self? I stumbled upon this site several 
  days ago and have been inundated with wonderfully interesting and helpful 
  information ever since.
  
  
  
  I did read that I need to only use 
  plain text, so I must first figure out how that is done on a email by email 
  basis using Outlook Express.
  
  
  
  I am Sharron a resident of the 
  state of Texas, USA. I am a 
  fairly newcomer to css, validation etcetera. 
  
  
  
  
  Regards
  
  
  
  Sharron
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  


RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

2006-02-23 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Linking back to the Home page via a logo placed top-left is one of those
design conventions/patterns that users of various experience appear to be
learning. I haven't seen novice users navigating this way, but certainly
users with moderate computer/internet literacy are.

However, I don't agree that the logo should have text in it (or added to it)
that says 'home'. Users seem to be far more aware of standard header
sections that include links such as home, about, contact, and the search
field (usually top right). I think it's more consistent to leave the text
link for 'Home' there. Aside from anything else, if 'Home' is added to the
logo, it may interfere with branding, which is important to most clients.

Christian, can you point us to an example where home text has been added to
the logo on site sub-pages? I'm really interested to see the type of sites
that are implementing this.

Thanks and all the best,

Lisa

 -Original Message-
 From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On 2/23/06, Caleb Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I think it should.  I think people are used to clicking on a logo to
  return to the home page and if you are going to make the 
 logo a link -
  the standard location for it is home.
 
 I think we can make this a design pattern. One thing that helps is for
 the logo to have a bit of text like home in it on subpages of the
 site.
 

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RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

2006-02-23 Thread Herrod, Lisa
It's one of those design conventions that doesn't impact on the visual
design of a page at all, but definitely does effect the user experience. I
do think users are 'learning' to expect this type of functionality and I
can't think of a reason why you wouldn't implement it.

lisa

 -Original Message-
 From: Justin Owens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 9:59 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?
 
 
 John:
 
 We have had a few small projects where we did not link back to home
 via the logo. In each of the usability tests, the users overwhelmingly
 tried clicking on the logo to return home and were very frustrated
 when the could not click.
 
 So, based from practical usability experience, I am going to have to
 say the logo should be linked.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Justin
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RE: [WSG] Introduction and first submission

2006-02-23 Thread Herrod, Lisa
South by South West - specifically the Interactive festival, being held in
Austin in just a few weeks.

http://www.sxsw.com



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 11:40 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Introduction and first submission
 
 
 pardon me yet again, but what is this...SXSW ?
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:37 PM
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Introduction and first submission
 
 
  I'm here in Austin.
  [...]
  Im in Austin too!
 
  So you'll be the ones who should advise a good BBQ there, 
 during SXSW ;)
 
  Oh I can see an Austin WSG forming already!
 
  A joint venture with Refresh (http://refreshaustin.org/) maybe? :)
 
  -- 
  Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | 
www.wdnews.net
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RE: [WSG] Font Sizes - Best practice

2006-02-22 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Hi Terrance

 From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 All good questions. I read somewhere recently that a seasoned usability
tester observed one person changing the font size   for the very first
time.

I wrote about that here recently. I've run hundreds of usability sessions
and that was the first time I'd ever seen a user resize text via the
browser, completely unprompted. The same user also right clicked a link to
open it in a new window.

I have to admit, it was pretty amazing to see!

When I wrote to the list about it, there were jokes about it being usability
'pr0n' - which went right over my head. Because, while I might be geeky
enough to get excited about resizing text or right clicking a link, I never
got into all of that! Having said that, there was some truth to it. 

So going back to Rimantas questions, my experience would be to answer for
each:
'Very few (non-web developer users)'. But I don't have any stats on this,
it's purely based on observation during usability evaluations.

Hope that helps Rimantas?


 Rimantas Liubertas:
 
  a) How many users do know that there exists a preference for a font 
  size.
  b) How many of the do know how to use it and indeed do use it.
  c) How many have an idea what 'px' or 'pt' is, and have an 
 idea how big
  is 16pt/px. Same goes for DPI settings.
  d) How many users prefer to play with settings instead of doing what
  they were going to do in the first place (getting info)?
 
 All good questions. I read somewhere recently that a seasoned 
 usability 
 tester observed one person changing the font size for the very first 
 time. We may well conclude that the answer to the above questions are 
 not many, however, I sense that they are largely rhetorical. In any 
 case, they illustrate very well the reason(s) why it is 
 better to have 
 a font that's too big than one that's too small.



Lisa 
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RE: [WSG] Confusing the users... In Page Links

2006-02-21 Thread Herrod, Lisa
This is really interesting article in that it contradicts findings of a
recent study we completed just 2 weeks ago.

We recently conducted user testing on a site with 22 participants, which is
a significant sample (often we test with 8 to 12).
 
The demographic was 18 skilled workers and 4 employers of skilled workers.
Balance of gender, spread of age and technical ability (novice to expert).


We received very positive feedback from the users about in-page links, so
much so that it was reported as a positive attribute of the site. In fact,
about 25% commented that they liked these links, without being asked.


Lisa


   Terrence Wood wrote:
   Jakob Nielsen responded to my request for clarification
  
  Jacob has used this request for his latest article
  http://www.useit.com/alertbox/within_page_links.html
  
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RE: [WSG] Confusing the users... In Page Links

2006-02-21 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Actually, the interesting thing is that we met one of their usability
consultants O/S recently, and were told that they don't actually do much of
their testing with users. That it's mostly 'Expert Reviews'.

But I'm sure he tests with users if he says he does. Not casting aspersions!

A friend of mine pointed out to me earlier that what I'd written was Horses
for courses. which is true.

User testing is really important, because while our results were true for
that demographic, they may differ greatly with another.

I really don't believe you can make a blanket statement that covers all
users, just wanted to clarify that point.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that. All this talking is giving me a hoarse
throat...


 -Original Message-
 From: Mike Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 1:28 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Confusing the users... In Page Links
 
 
 Herrod, Lisa wrote:
  This is really interesting article in that it contradicts 
 findings of a
  recent study we completed just 2 weeks ago.
  
  We recently conducted user testing on a site with 22 
 participants, which is
  a significant sample (often we test with 8 to 12).
   
  The demographic was 18 skilled workers and 4 employers of 
 skilled workers.
  Balance of gender, spread of age and technical ability 
 (novice to expert).
  
  
  We received very positive feedback from the users about 
 in-page links, so
  much so that it was reported as a positive attribute of the 
 site. In fact,
  about 25% commented that they liked these links, without 
 being asked.
  
 
 You usability people, always with the testing!
 
 You don't know there's a 99% chance Jakob is always right?
 
 :)
 
 Mike
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RE: [WSG] site check: FONT sizes

2006-02-16 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Yes but Patrick, 

If you provide the user with a Javascript pop-up window that they
right-click to display a pretty flash-based font-increasing app, the user
could increase the font as much as they like.

It's known as the 'Clydesdale Hack'.

L


 -Original Message-
 From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
 It's just a shame that people who pay for web design usually 
 insist on 
 the smaller text sizes, because historically 99% of web sites in the 
 wild have tended to serve a slightly reduced font size...
 
 -- 
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __
 re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
 [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
 www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
 http://redux.deviantart.com
 __
 Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
 http://webstandards.org/
 __
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RE: [WSG] site check: FONT sizes

2006-02-16 Thread Herrod, Lisa
I've always wanted my own theme song.

I believe I have finally arrived.

 -Original Message-
 From: Mark Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 12:27 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] site check: FONT sizes
 
 
 Herrod, Lisa wrote:
  Yes but Patrick, 
  
  If you provide the user with a Javascript pop-up window that they
  right-click to display a pretty flash-based font-increasing 
 app, the user
  could increase the font as much as they like.
  
  It's known as the 'Clydesdale Hack'.
  
  L
  
 song id=yankee-doodle
 Oh, Lisa Herrod came to town
 a-riding on a pony
 But then Russ bucked and threw her off
 because her bum was bony!
 
 Yes, web standards are such fun
 bringing joy and order
 With sarcasm and some sly digs
 designers we do slaughter!
 /song
 
 *runs and hides*
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RE: [WSG] site check

2006-02-16 Thread Herrod, Lisa
I think that requires a purchase order felix.

 -Original Message-
 From: Felix Miata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
 Please tell us which combination(s) of display size and resolution and
 at which DPI values your description applies to:
 
 13 on 800x600
 14 on 800x600
 15 on 800x600
 16 on 800x600
 17 on 800x600
 13 on 1024x768
 14 on 1024x768
 15 on 1024x768
 16 on 1024x768
 17 on 1024x768
 18 on 1024x768
 13 on 1152x864
 14 on 1152x864
 15 on 1152x864
 16 on 1152x864
 17 on 1152x864
 18 on 1152x864
 19 on 1152x864
 20 on 1152x864
 21 on 1152x864
 13 on 1280xX
 14 on 1280xX
 15 on 1280xX
 16 on 1280xX
 17 on 1280xX
 18 on 1280xX
 19 on 1280xX
 20 on 1280xX
 21 on 1280xX
 14 on 1400x1050
 15 on 1400x1050
 16 on 1400x1050
 17 on 1400x1050
 18 on 1400x1050
 19 on 1400x1050
 20 on 1400x1050
 21 on 1400x1050
 15 on 1600x1200
 16 on 1600x1200
 17 on 1600x1200
 18 on 1600x1200
 19 on 1600x1200
 20 on 1600x1200
 21 on 1600x1200
 22 on 1600x1200
 16 on 1800x1350
 17 on 1800x1350
 18 on 1800x1350
 19 on 1800x1350
 20 on 1800x1350
 21 on 1800x1350
 22 on 1800x1350
 17 on 1920x1440
 18 on 1920x1440
 19 on 1920x1440
 20 on 1920x1440
 21 on 1920x1440
 22 on 1920x1440
 17 on 2048x1536
 18 on 2048x1536
 19 on 2048x1536
 20 on 2048x1536
 21 on 2048x1536
 22 on 2048x1536
 Less than 13 or 800x600
 Other
 -- 
 Love your neighbor as yourself.Mark 12:31 NIV
 
  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
 
 Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth
 
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RE: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
 The users!  Please, won't somebody think of the *users*!

This line reminds me of something from my favourite show when I was a kid:
Fantasy Island. the plane, the plane! :)

Let's just change it here to the users, the users!


Can I kindly suggest you all try some usability testing on each of the sites
you create?

That way you will truly know what the users of your site really think.

Every site is different, every user is different, every demographic varies
from the last.

I once tested a site on a group of novice users where all of the navigation
on a particular page disappeared and was replaced with a flash animation.
The only link back was below the fold. None of them had problems finding it.

Also, I have to say, in testing I've found that users tend to distinguish
between pop-ups used for utilities and external links, and those used for
advertising and other annoying unrelated information. Usually it's only the
latter that is a problem. But again, it depends so much on the individual.


Don't assume anything... whether or not it's best practice.



... and with that I will gallop off on my Clydesdale, another very tall
horse




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RE: [WSG] Web design education

2006-02-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa
:) good work Jimmy G, and thanks for the good press!

looking forward to coming out there... you know if there was ever a chance
to teach the usability I'd jump at it!

lisa

 -Original Message-
 From: James Gollan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, 14 February 2006 8:00 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; Russ Weakly
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Web design education
 
 
 Chris Taylor wrote:
  And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and
  accessibility evangelists to do about the continued 
 ingorance and apathy
  towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's 
 hope that the
  recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause.
 

 I feel it is worth pointing out that not all educational institutions 
 are still teaching table based design. As an educator I feel 
 I am in a 
 great position to make a difference at a 'grass roots' level. 
 Students 
 studying web design at our college (Ultimo TAFE) are exposed 
 to about as 
 much evangelism as they can take! There is a brief mention of 
 tables for 
 design, but as a primer for what they may find themselves 
 working with 
 in industry. Every site that they design should validate to a strict 
 doctype (they choose between HTML and XHMTL after being 
 presented with 
 the arguments for and against) and use CSS for all aspects of layout. 
 They spend an hour and a half per week studying usability and 
 accessibility, they have access to multiple browsers, 
 operating systems, 
 and even JAWS (until recently :( ). First lesson they are directed to 
 join this list!
 Past teachers have been such luminaries as Lisa Herrod and 
 Roger Hudson, 
 and, at the end of semester when they are dizzy from this barrage of 
 evangalism, they get a good talking to from people such as 
 Russ Weakley, 
 Lindsay Evans, Peter Ottery, Lisa Herrod and Roger Hudson (not all on 
 the same bill, unfortunately).
 I know of other TAFE's (particularly Blue Mountains) that 
 have a similar 
 approach toward standards.
 Unfortunately it often comes down to the teachers at the educational 
 institution to promote this viewpoint, as syllabus documents are 
 normally vague and hopelessly out of date. We are currently 
 working of a 
 training package that was first developed around 1997 (may have been 
 1999, but hell, it's old). It mentions tables for layout etc.
 I am sure that other institutions would be taking a similar 
 approach to 
 web design as us If not, hopefully the word will get out and 
 the course 
 will either drop off or modify its content. We do have 
 mailing lists for 
 educators in TAFE to try to disseminate the knowledge and facilitate 
 discussion.
 I agree that there can be an apathy in educational 
 institutions - often 
 as a result of the institutional structure - but it is not 
 necessarily 
 the case.
 Just wanted to point that out ;)
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Recall: [WSG] Web design education

2006-02-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, [WSG] Web design education.
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RE: Recall: [WSG] Web design education

2006-02-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Man you guys are tough! I've only had 3 hours sleep!

I was just trying to not flood the list with personal emails! Thanks for the
kind words James, as always, you know I'd love to come back into TAFE to
rally the troops!

 -Original Message-
 From: James Gollan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:09 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: Recall: [WSG] Web design education
 
 
 Mark Harris wrote:
  Terrence Wood wrote:
  Herrod, Lisa wrote:
  Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, [WSG] Web design 
  education.
  What does that mean and where does it come from? Someone 
 else sent me 
  one of those recently.
 
 
  Generally, it means someone is using Outlook on an 
 MS-Exchange server 
  as their mail set up. Exchange allows you to recall 
 messages on your 
  local server if the recipient hasn't opened it yet. It doesn't work 
  outside your local environment though.
 Of course it has a secondary effect of causing great interest in the 
 offending email, subjecting it to a level of scrutiny that it would 
 otherwise not enjoy!
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RE: [WSG] Separate mobile content considered harmful?

2006-02-06 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Hi Josh,

There's a public list you can join for the Mobile Web Initiative (MWI) which
isn't high in traffic and provides really good, friendly, interesting
discussion. Details for the MWI, the mail list and other info:
http://www.w3.org/Mobile/

Also, there's a 'Last Call Working Draft' of the mobile web best practices
document, which is still open for discussion 
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-mobile-bp-20060113/ , but only for a few more
days, until Feb 17.

You can send to the list here: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hope that helps...

Lisa



 -Original Message-
 From: Joshua Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


 Hi all,
 
 This was big news a year or two ago now, but I just realised that,
 perhaps, a separate domain space for mobile content isn't particularly
 evil afterall. Tim Berners-Lee weighed in on this in May 2004 [1], and
 I do agree with everything outlined in that document -- but there is
 more.
 
 We're looking at mobile content for the Sunrise Family site, along
 similar lines to that on the Y!7 Sunrise WAP site [2].

 
 1. http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/TLD
 2. http://wap.yahoo.com.au/sunrise/ -- note the evil subdomain
 

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RE: [WSG] Web Standards Shetland Ponies

2006-01-31 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Good point Helen,

I like that this is coming up at the beginning of the year by a few people
on list.

The truth is that people have been scared off the list and that's a shame
when the focus here is to share information and promote standards based
design and development.

One of the strong points of the Web Essentials Conference last year was that
everyone I spoke with commented on the real sense of community and like
mindedness we all shared.

People are rarely impressed by arrogance or rudeness; something to consider
before you press send.

And that, people, is my Oprah moment for the year!

lisa


 -Original Message-
 From: Helen Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2006 12:56 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] Web Standards Shetland Ponies
 
 
 Hi folks,
 
 I've been on this list since returning from WE05 in Sydney 
 last October, 
 hoping that the same feeling of sharing and openness would 
 prevail. It does 
 to a certain extent, but the few glaring exceptions have 
 tended to put me 
 off posting to the list.
 
 Some people write as if there were a club, a them and us, 
 people who get it 
 and people who don't, and never the twain shall meet. I 
 remember at WE05 
 Molly Holzschlag asking us what we called ourselves, and 
 there were some 
 very diverse answers (my favourite was the guy who does 
 stuff). Elsewhere 
 (on Flickr) I've seen her reminding us that lots of us are good at 
 different aspects of what we do and together we make a good 
 team. I'd like 
 to think that this web standards community is a team, not a 
 club where only 
 some of us are truly web professionals.
 
 Cheers,
 Helen
 
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RE: Moral High-horse - was Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Medi a

2006-01-31 Thread Herrod, Lisa


 -Original Message-
 From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2006 5:22 PM


 
 On 1/31/06, Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I also appreciate that changing 6 or 8 or 10 years of 
 coding practice
  and philosophy of web development is incredibly difficult
 
 Just wanted to come back to this...
 
 Let's not defend the hermit. If your practice has not changed in 6
 years, that's not good. Sure, it's hard to change something that
 hasn't changed in 6 years, but nothing should be so solid in the first
 place.
 
 And if your habits haven't changed in 10 years, then would you even be
 making any money? Isn't the web only 12 years old?
 


Christian, Let's not go here. Let's just keep this positive?

Just do the best you can, focus on doing good work and spreading the word.

There's no need to judge people. Everyone has a choice to work the way they
want to. It may not be the best, or your way, but you don't know their
reasons and they may be trying their best. If not, at least it's less
competition for you! :)

Cheers / Lisa

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RE: [WSG] Justify this

2005-12-14 Thread Herrod, Lisa
what are you applying it to? a heading or a paragraph of text?

-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:18
Subject: [WSG] Justify this

Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on
this
one.

I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've
applied
the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But can
justify
be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this just work
through
browser quirks?

text-align: center justify;

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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RE: [WSG] Justify this

2005-12-14 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of usability/readability. 

Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)

 

-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

Hi Lachlan,

Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified
text
for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.

Thanks anyway.

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

Paul Noone wrote:
 Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on 
 this one.

No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're
looking
for.

 I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've 
 applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But

 can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this 
 just work through browser quirks?
 
 text-align: center justify;

If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug.  That property should
be
ignored by a conforming browser.  Centred and justified text are
mutually
exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the box,
but
have the text justified within.  In which case, this should do the
trick:

p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }

Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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RE: [WSG] Justify this

2005-12-14 Thread Herrod, Lisa
no, I'm a comedian every day, it's just that I don't post every day :P

but seriously, are you adding paragraphs of justified text to the page...?
(irrespective of which element you're using to mark up).



-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 15:00
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

Everyone's a comedian today. :P

T'was purely an aesthetic venture for a client and one which I'll now
gladly
leave behind. They're getting pre tags and they're just going to have
to
live with it. :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:59 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org '
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of
usability/readability. 

Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)

 

-Original Message-
From: Paul Noone
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

Hi Lachlan,

Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified
text
for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.

Thanks anyway.

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

Paul Noone wrote:
 Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on 
 this one.

No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're
looking
for.

 I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've 
 applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But

 can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this 
 just work through browser quirks?
 
 text-align: center justify;

If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug.  That property should
be
ignored by a conforming browser.  Centred and justified text are
mutually
exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the box,
but
have the text justified within.  In which case, this should do the
trick:

p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }

Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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RE: [WSG] Justify this

2005-12-14 Thread Herrod, Lisa
We're talking about paragraphs of text here.

It's harder to read, presents 'rivers of white' running through the text as
lines stretch and contract to fit the line. it's unnatural. it's probably
unaustralian somewhere too :)

some links:

Rivers of white:
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/cognitive.cfm

More (where roger is referenced)
http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_t
extjustify.hcsp


lisa

-Original Message-
From: Joshua Street
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 15/12/05 15:07
Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

Really? Why not?

I wouldn't have said that of justified text, but maybe my response is
an aesthetic one rather than a conscious approach to readability. Is
it something to do with not being able to find the line you were on at
the end/beginning as easily?

(And if we're going to go down this path, what of non-fixed-width
sites, justified or not?)

Not attacking, just... curious. Because I think justified text LOOKS
nicer (n.b. not neccessarily more readable... just more enjoyable to
read.)

Josh

On 12/15/05, Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of
usability/readability.

 Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)



 -Original Message-
 From: Paul Noone
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this

 Hi Lachlan,

 Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified
 text
 for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.

 Thanks anyway.

 --
 Paul A Noone
 Webmaster, ASHM
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
 Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this

 Paul Noone wrote:
  Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on
  this one.

 No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're
 looking
 for.

  I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've
  applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick.
But

  can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this
  just work through browser quirks?
 
  text-align: center justify;

 If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug.  That property
should
 be
 ignored by a conforming browser.  Centred and justified text are
 mutually
 exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
 However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the
box,
 but
 have the text justified within.  In which case, this should do the
 trick:

 p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }

 Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.

 --
 Lachlan Hunt
 http://lachy.id.au/

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--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
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RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-06 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Ok. let's just take a step back and put this all in perspective:

We already have a rating system with A - AAA conformence and the pretty
badges to go with it.

In Australia we have HREOC, and we know there's been a successful test case,
which was widely publicised.

Who really pays attention to the badges? Site users or other developers? And
do they make the site more accessible, more usable? no. 

Is there any evidence to suggest that a site receives more traffic as a
result of these badges? Do users actually seek out these sites?

Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page on the site is
more informative and helpful/useful/clear... to those who are interested.

We work this way because it's best practice and the right thing to do; it's
faster and more efficient, we're good people (for the most part), who care
about quality, accessibility, usability etc. 

surely you're not doing it for the elephant stamp?



lisa



-Original Message-
From: Patrick H. Lauke
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 7/12/05 9:37
Subject: Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was  talking points for standards

Peter Williams wrote:

 1 star for content to markup ratio
 1 star for validation of markup and css
 
 These two should be able to be automated, just like the w3c validator.
 
 1 star for accessibility
 1 star for semantic markup
 1 star for ? suggestions from the audience required.
 
 These three are probably hard/impossible to assess programatically.
 
 5 stars is the best.

And who would award the stars? Or are you thinking of a self-assessment 
scheme like the W3C? Hmm...let me think of the plethora of sites I've 
seen that claim WCAG AAA and are nowhere near even A (e.g. having 
alt=image on each image, thus passing automatic validation)...

Let the market regulate itself. Let standards-compliant markup sites 
take over because of their benefits actually manifesting themselves 
(easier to maintain, faster, etc). We don't need yet another 
badge...imho of course.

-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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[WSG] Javascript dependant devices

2005-11-29 Thread Herrod, Lisa

Hi List,

can anyone point me to an up to date list of browsers and devices that
either do not support Javascript or whose functionality is impeded by JS?

thanks,


Lisa Herrod 
Usability Analyst 


P: 02 9467 5047  M: 0403 795 435
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Access Testing
The Experts in Testing
Sydney : Melbourne : Brisbane
www.accesstesting.com

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RE: [WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2. 0

2005-11-23 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Is anyone aware of the proposed date WCAG 2.0 will replace 1.0?

-Original Message-
From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:03 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0


From the W3C

The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) Working Group has released
Working Drafts of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 [1] and HTML
Techniques for WCAG 2.0 [2] and a First Public Working Draft of
Understanding WCAG 2.0 [3]. Following WCAG makes Web content more accessible
to the vast majority of users, including people with disabilities and older
users, using many different devices including a wide variety of assistive
technology. Read about the Web Accessibility Initiative [4].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-20051123/
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[4] http://www.w3.org/WAI/

Thanks
Russ

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RE: [WSG] University textbook or other resources?

2005-11-22 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Lloyd, 

can you tell us the university, the course/faculty and the year you did that
course? Just to put it in context. By no means as a way of shaming them into
the present...

-Original Message-
From: Lloyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 3:11 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] University textbook or other resources?


Ted,

I am not an instructor - I am a University student. For the one web
class I have done so far at University (Doing an Internet Computing
degree at the end of my first year) I was lucky enough to learn HTML
3. Unclosed and capitalised tags are what this stuff is all about I
was told with authority. And using CSS in the first assignment? No
that is beyond the scope of the assignment (But we were allowed inline
styles in the second assignment).

Sorry for the sarcasm but I dream of a lecturer covering things like
accessibility, especially with decent books and knowledgeable and
interested tutors :-P

Lloyd

On 11/23/05, Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Lloyd, are you an instructor?
 If so, check with the book publishers for instructor test books. I was
able
 to get one of Molly H's books to see if it was appropriate for a class and
 they are happy to send you others.

 Zeldman's book isn't accessibility oriented but is a great foundation for
 students.

 Ted


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Lloyd
 Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 4:42 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] University textbook or other resources?

 Hi,

 Have you considered Building Accessible Websites by Joe Clark? You
 can read it for free online.
 http://www.joeclark.org/book/

 :-)

 Lloyd

 On 11/23/05, ivanovitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Folks
 
  I've been asked if there are useful university-focused textbooks or
  other resources suitable for teaching accessible web design.
 
  So far 'Effective website development' (Darlington) and 'Principles of
  web site design' (Skalr) have been proposed as possible options.
 
  Thoughts?
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RE: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney next yea r?

2005-11-22 Thread Herrod, Lisa
No, you're thinking of the finn brothers and 'the piano'

-Original Message-
From: Miles Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 3:11 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney next
year?



Someone once told me that New Zealand was a country, and not a state of
Australia. I didn't believe them - I mean, we made Lord of the Rings and
Russell Crowe, didn't we? :)

Cheers,

Miles.

http://www.port80.asn.au


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sigurd Magnusson
 Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 11:58 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney next
 year?
 
 
 Webstock in May 2006 is hosted at a capital city--Wellington--and you 
 guys probably treat NZ as a state :P
 
 Its going to be absolutely amazing --  Check out 
 http://www.Webstock.org.nz
 
 Siggy
 
 --
 
 Cade Whitbourn wrote:
 
 I know it's early but...
 
 Anybody know of any good training courses or events that are 
 being held
 in Sydney (or the other capital cities) next year on web 
 standards/best
 practice web design/usability etc (other than WE06 and the 
 regular wsg
 meetings?)
 
 Cheers,
 
 C a d e  W h i t b o u r n
 Web Designer - Web Projects and Business Development
 Australian Stock Exchange
 www.asx.com.au
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RE: [WSG] jump menu method

2005-11-21 Thread Herrod, Lisa
now I just want to find a way to use it because it sounds so good!

-Original Message-
From: kvnmcwebn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2005 12:14 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] jump menu method




Nice script.
What sort of attribution would you like if I borrow it?



It is brilliant Lachlan
i'd like to use it to if you don't mind.

-best
-kvnmcwebn


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RE: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.

2005-11-20 Thread Herrod, Lisa
This is a great article Terrance, and while interesting from a design /
technology perspective, I think the human side of this story is more
important.

I'm sure everyone who saw Doug Bowmans presentation at WE05 'Zooming out of
the trenches' http://we05.com/podcast/ was incredibly moved by his
presentation - I heard stories of tears. After all, building to standards is
really about equity isn't it? I don't think anyone here would disagree that
the equitable delivery of and access to information and education is every
persons right.

It would be great if we (WSG listers) could come together to work on a
project like this - we all have such great contacts, it would be a very
powerful thing to do. I've been wanting to do something like this for a long
time, if you are interested too, please contact me.

lisa



-Original Message-
From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 9:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.


Sorry if this has been commented on in this forum:

http://chronicle.com/free/2005/11/2005111602t.htm

10 Million 7.5in small screens, pretty sure that will change the face of
the browser market.


-- 
Terrence Wood




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[WSG] $100 laptop WAS: why liquid layout is important.

2005-11-20 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Well the idea of the $100 laptop is to 'work with developing nations' to
provide low cost access to knowledge via the Internet.

What I'm doing is putting this out to our community to see who is interested
in being involved in a project like this. Naturally we would need to discuss
exactly what it means, but in a nutshell, finding a way in which we can
contribute and give something back.

We all work on the web and reap the benefits of it daily and I have seen
first hand (in Indonesia) the impact knowledge and access to the web can
have. It's incredibly empowering.

Happy to continue this discussion but not sure if this is the right place...
Is this OT? 



-Original Message-
From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 1:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.



 It would be great if we (WSG listers) could come together to work on a
 project like this - we all have such great contacts, it would be a very
 powerful thing to do. I've been wanting to do something like this for a
long
 time, if you are interested too, please contact me.

 lisa


Wait, what exactly is the project you are talking about? Tell me more.

--
--
C Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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RE: [WSG] $100 laptop WAS: why liquid layout is important.

2005-11-20 Thread Herrod, Lisa
 My concern for MIT's project is whether or not internet access will be
managed by the governments in some of these countries.

I agree this is an important consideration, but separate to this discussion.
as you say:

 But regardless of this concern, there's definitely a need. Sharing
information for these children on how to stay safe on the internet, how to
find information, how to use accessibility tools, etc. 


 Kids are really smart nowadays, if we give them the right information,
they'll really benefit from it. 


I worked in indonesia for a short time teaching basic internet skills to a
very poor school for deaf children. if they can pick up HTML, (which,
remember is in english) taught by someone with basic indonesian and little
Indo sign language, imagine what they can do with propper support! our main
issue was that of the 6 or 7 computers they had, each had completely
different o/s, browser, software etc. they could not afford to access the
internet or visit an internet cafe (though we did find the funds for 2
visits). They picked it up so quickly and in a couple of weeks were creating
small web sites. the kids were aged between 11 and 18. They were clearly
amazed at what they were doing. Education and knowledge is very empowering,
particularly for people considered 'disabled' and in a third world country. 



-Original Message-
From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 2:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] $100 laptop WAS: why liquid layout is important.


On 11/20/05, Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well the idea of the $100 laptop is to 'work with developing nations' to
 provide low cost access to knowledge via the Internet.

 What I'm doing is putting this out to our community to see who is
interested
 in being involved in a project like this. Naturally we would need to
discuss
 exactly what it means, but in a nutshell, finding a way in which we can
 contribute and give something back.

 We all work on the web and reap the benefits of it daily and I have seen
 first hand (in Indonesia) the impact knowledge and access to the web can
 have. It's incredibly empowering.

 Happy to continue this discussion but not sure if this is the right
place...
 Is this OT?


I think it is on topic. I'm interested in hearing ideas other WSG
members have for making something like this work. My concern for MIT's
project is whether or not internet access will be managed by the
governments in some of these countries. Google is part of it, and
Google has already followed China's wishes to censor content on
searches in China. How valuable is the internet to users in China,
compared to users in countries where access is unrestricted? Will
these children in the countries MIT is targeting be using a managed,
censored network, or will they be able to learn about things their
government might not want them to know about?

But regardless of this concern, there's definitely a need. Sharing
information for these children on how to stay safe on the internet,
how to find information, how to use accessibility tools, etc. Kids are
really smart nowadays, if we give them the right information, they'll
really benefit from it.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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RE: [WSG] jump menu method

2005-11-20 Thread Herrod, Lisa
can you send a link to an example of one of these?

thanks,

lisa

-Original Message-
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 4:06 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] jump menu method


Just a thought, but if all the links are counties within a greater 
whole, why not use a happy map image map interface? Thats a-okay 
standards-wise, and degrades nicely into a list of links, and looks cute 
for visitors.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Terrence Wood wrote:

Lachlan Hardy said:
  

build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform
that into a dropdown list for those with JS.
Consider it a 'white lie of web design'



or call it 'progressive enhancement'.


nice solution.

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-17 Thread Herrod, Lisa
 for the record, I'm still following the thread. 

this isn't even close to finished.

-Original Message-
From: Geoff Deering
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 11/18/05 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

Patrick Lauke wrote:

Geoff Deering


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RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa

I ran a usability evaluation last week where some (few) of the form elements
had place-holding text and others didn't.

This caused problems as you might expect as users scanned over those fields
thinking that as they were already populated, they were therefore optional.
Of course they were mandatory and caused validation errors.

This was more an issue of inconsistent design, though it does illustrate
possible usability/accessibility issues.

Lisa


-Original Message-
From: Jonathan O'Donnell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 14 November 2005 11:55 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders



Leaving it there can be a problem.  I have seen a demonstration (at a 
Melbourne WSG meeting, no less) where the agent placed the cursor at 
the end of the place-holding text without reading it.  There is a real 
danger that the user will enter text without knowing that the 
place-holding text is there.


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RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Yes this is an interesting point. And it differs from visually highlighting
a field once the user has encountered a form validation error. For example,
a user misses or incorrectly fills out a mandatory field and when the form
is re-presented, those fields are visually highlighted with a background
colour. In this example, I find users actually like this method and find it
useful/helpful.

-Original Message-
From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


*Another* thing I see that is happening in design a lot lately is that 
input fields are in greyed background by design, not function.  What 
this is telling the user is that that field is *read only*.  That is the 
standard way operating systems manage read only data, and the same way 
it is done on web based systems.  It's absolutely sending the wrong 
message to users, when the input field is open to accept data input.

If users are used to working on complex data retrieval systems, where 
there is a lot of read only data, then they will be confused by this 
because this type of design breaks the standard by which GUI's 
function.  If this type of design continues, it will only confuse users 
more.

--
Geoff Deering
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RE: [WSG] Font resizing

2005-11-09 Thread Herrod, Lisa
last week in a usability evaluation I saw my very first participant increase
the font size of their own accord. No prompting what so ever. 

Profile: Male, 36, works in finance, uses internet every day

I nearly fell off my chair. It was such a rare moment. He then right clicked
a link to open it in a new window. I had to stop myself leaving the room to
post to the list, it was that exciting... fortunately I have it on DVD and
can watch it to my hearts content... :)





-Original Message-
From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


 Personally, I see this as a matter of educating the user and making
browser controls more obvious 
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RE: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?

2005-11-01 Thread Herrod, Lisa
well if they don't have an understanding of coding to standards, it appears
that a couple of their toes are actually missing. In which case, you
certainly won't be standing on them.

 -Original Message-
 From: Paul Noone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 10:10 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?
 
 
  The programmers dont want me to do any coding or as
  little as possible-so as not to step on thier toes.
 
 Don't just step, STOMP! If they're not going to do their job 
 right then let
 it be known there is someone who can...and provide the 
 reasons why. At the
 end of the day, if it can save time and money, then any 
 decent manager will
 go for it.
 
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RE: [WSG] Top Ten Web Design Mistakes - yeah, right!

2005-10-07 Thread Herrod, Lisa


 -Original Message-
 From: Alan Trick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 5:13 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Top Ten Web Design Mistakes - yeah, right!
 
 
 The fact that Nielsen only surveyed his subscribers, most of whom are
quite different from Joe
 User, probably provided different result than if more 'average' testing
 was done.

Not neccesarily. It depends on what you're testing and how you're testing
it. Depends on the needs of that user group compared with another. 


 However, I don't really think that's a bad thing. I  think it's actually
better that way.

What you're really looking at is comparing novice and expert users. Both are
completely valid. What is important is that the user profile for example,
'expert' or whatever you define is compatible with the objectives of the
evaluation.

So if Nielsens objective was to elicit feedback from experienced users, and
that's who he tested with, then it's the right way to do it. not neccesarily
better.



 The greatest issue that I have with usability testing and such is that 
 they rely on the flawed assumption that the users know what they want.
 Don't fool youself. From my experience, if you ask Joe User what an
 Office program should look like, he'll describe what MS Office looks
 like, and if you ask what a search engine should look he'll 
 say (in more
 or less words) like Google.


That's why a lot of effort is made to ensure that questions are phrased
properly, don't lead the user etc. this is a huge subject and another
conversation.

Usability testing does not rely on the assumption that users know what they
want. Mine doesn't anyway :)



Have a great weekend everyone :)

Lisa
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RE: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.

2005-10-04 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Hi Peter,

Thanks for posting this to the list, I'm sure it will be interesting to many
of us on list...

Can you tell us when you conducted the research, the duration of the study
and how you collected the information?

All the best,

lisa

-Original Message-
From: Peter Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2005 9:20 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.


Hi there,

This may help with your font compatibility problem.

http://www.visibone.com/font/FontResults.html


Cheers,
Peter Johnson

---
Peter Johnson
Macromedia Flash Developer
Missing Link NZ Ltd.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---


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RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!

2005-09-26 Thread Herrod, Lisa
I think he's really just trying to stir up something controversial and
attract people to his site.

Surely anyone who was really serious about their own reputation and business
would actually think about what they were saying, and research their
point(less) before posting it... wouldn't they?


-Original Message-
From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 8:44 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd
newsletter!



 -Original Message-
 From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:44 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another 
 nerd newsletter!
 
 Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article
  
 The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has 
 gone too far. 
 http://www.killersites.com/newsletters/lt/t_go.php?i=10e=MTI
zNDM=l=http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-
web-standards-are-for-browsers/  ?
 

I agree with him in the point that some people take Web Standards way too
far. Just think of the endless discussions on what the semantically correct
way is to mark up breadcrumbs. As if the world would find its end if I
decided to mark up my breadcrumbs in p's instead of ul's or ol's or
dt's...

However, the guy who wrote the article doesn't really have a clue what he is
talking about. He seems to be trying to attack Web Standards just for the
sake of opening his mouth. There is a huge difference between using tables
and using floats, but he obviously does not get that. 

The article he quoted (by Vincent Flanders) makes a much better point: don't
believe Web Standards, Usability and tableless CSS is the ultimate way to
create a fantastic website. It's tools, nothing more.


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RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?

2005-09-26 Thread Herrod, Lisa
That's a great idea, I'd love to put some faces to names/weird user names :)

Lisa

-Original Message-
From: Webmaster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 2:19 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?


So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week?

Anyone interested in a group catch-up?

I thought it might be nice to put some faces to all these names.

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RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?

2005-09-26 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Did you come out last year Kazuhito? I remember someone from Japan came out
last year. :)

lisa



-Original Message-
From: Kazuhito Kidachi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 2:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?


2005/9/27, Webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week?

+1 from Japan.

If you find me at official or final party, please talk to me - my
English is not good, though!
--
Kazuhito Kidachi
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?

2005-09-26 Thread Herrod, Lisa
oh spoil sport!

can't we do both...? :) Just hold up your middle 3 fingers in a 'W' shape
and touch tips as a secret handshake.

ok, just kidding. Seriously, I was...

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Krespanis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 3:28 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?


 How about a secret password that you have to sneak into the first 60
seconds
 of meeting someone :)..?

Or how about everyone interested just bites the bullet and posts their
photo  contact details like I just did?

This secret handshake/signalling in crowded room nonsense isn't going to
work.

We either need know who we're looking for or decide on a place and
time to meet up.

-Andrew :)
N.젲ȨX+ࠆinZᅝ֫v+휢h牡ym㶟j�l.f.寉wq(᜙b荞(,)උazX)i
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[WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines

2005-09-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa

Hello,

I'm looking for some examples of standards based visual design guidelines
and wondering if you can point me to anything you've seen or personally use
in your design process...?

If it is something you use during design development, let me know that too,
as I'm interested to see how developers/designers apply standards from a
purely visual perspective.

Thanks and looking forward to hearing your story,

lisa
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RE: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines

2005-09-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Hi David,

yes I've done that. I'm more interested in hearing directly from designers
who have a focus on standards.

Lisa 

-Original Message-
From: David Laakso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2005 11:46 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines


Herrod, Lisa wrote:

Hello,

I'm looking for some examples of standards based visual design guidelines
and wondering if you can point me to anything you've seen or personally use
in your design process...?

If it is something you use during design development, let me know that too,
as I'm interested to see how developers/designers apply standards from a
purely visual perspective.

Thanks and looking forward to hearing your story,

lisa

  

Google for 'standards based visual design guidelines' and you might find 
some stuff.
~dL


-- 
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com

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RE: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines

2005-09-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Thanks Ben :)

Just to clarify this for the list - I have googled this extensively. 

I'm more interested from your personal perspective and experience.

all the best,

lisa

-Original Message-
From: Ben Wrighton - StraightForward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2005 12:38 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines


I had a quick Google.

It is difficult because 'web design' is (often wrongly IMHO) used to
describe IA, UI and front-end website development.

But these were kinda interesting.

http://www.webdesignpractices.com/  

http://usability.gov/guidelines/designconsid.html

http://www.e-government.govt.nz/docs/web-guidelines-v1/chapter4.html

http://www.grantasticdesigns.com/tips.html

Hope you find them useful Lisa :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2005 2:05 p.m.
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines


Hi David,

yes I've done that. I'm more interested in hearing directly from designers
who have a focus on standards.

Lisa 

-Original Message-
From: David Laakso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 14 September 2005 11:46 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines


Herrod, Lisa wrote:

Hello,

I'm looking for some examples of standards based visual design guidelines
and wondering if you can point me to anything you've seen or personally use
in your design process...?

If it is something you use during design development, let me know that too,
as I'm interested to see how developers/designers apply standards from a
purely visual perspective.

Thanks and looking forward to hearing your story,

lisa

  

Google for 'standards based visual design guidelines' and you might find 
some stuff.
~dL


-- 
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com

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RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign

2005-09-07 Thread Herrod, Lisa
There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo
TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real
focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the
old addage of 
 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.'

is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case.

Lisa



-Original Message-
From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards
redesign


On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote:

 On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote:


 by-the-by:  I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college  
 in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of  
 DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to  
 close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed.


 Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can,  
 do. Those that can't, teach.'

 Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that  
 tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed  
 with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given  
 the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run  
 education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch,  
 you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you  
 can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come  
 about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students  
 down the line...


And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right!  
*grin*

Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on  
usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on  
CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up  
taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the  
class who knew what the lecturer was getting at.

Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it  
would mean I had to deal with students...


Cheers,

Seona.
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RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign

2005-09-07 Thread Herrod, Lisa
John! I wasn't talking about me! I'm not there anymore LOL

I won't name names, but I will say they're lurking about on this list... 

you know who you are people :)

I'm starting to see a new reality show... something like 'Rock school' but
it would be called 'standards school' 

- john perhaps you can take over Gene simmons role...? :)



-Original Message-
From: John Allsopp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:58 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards
redesign


Then again,

I used to teach at Northern Sydney IT - they aren't all lucky enough  
to get you Lisa :-)

john
On 08/09/2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote:

 There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute  
 (ultimo
 TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with  
 a real
 focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and  
 while the
 old addage of

 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.'


 is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case.

 Lisa



 -Original Message-
 From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards
 redesign


 On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote:


 On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote:



 by-the-by:  I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college
 in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of
 DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to
 close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed.



 Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can,
 do. Those that can't, teach.'

 Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that
 tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed
 with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given
 the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run
 education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch,
 you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you
 can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come
 about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students
 down the line...



 And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right!
 *grin*

 Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on
 usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on
 CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up
 taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the
 class who knew what the lecturer was getting at.

 Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it
 would mean I had to deal with students...


 Cheers,

 Seona.
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John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
support forum ::  http://support.westciv.com
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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RE: [WSG] Educate the educators

2005-09-07 Thread Herrod, Lisa
I can tell you from my experience studying/teaching web site design and
development at TAFE and personally studying at Masters Level in Interactive
Multimedia, that the top, conscientious students I saw graduating from TAFE
definitely had practical skills and knowledge advanced enough that they
could have breezed through the prac subjects in the Masters.

absolutely without a doubt.

-Original Message-
From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 11:12 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards
redesign


I'm actually a real champion of the TAFE system, the skills I learned at my
last TAFE course lasted me 15 years, absolutely brilliant. 

-Original Message-
From: Peter Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:55 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign

 From: Herrod, Lisa
 
 There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute 
 (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach...

Maybe TAFE is better than most other educational institutes.
I did some welding courses quite a few years ago and the instructors we had
were brilliant practitioners and knew the theory well too. They had all had
long years in the trade (boilermaking).

--
Peter Williams
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RE: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners

2005-08-28 Thread Herrod, Lisa
I think this is pretty good and easy to follow:

http://www.w3schools.com/

Also I know Westciv have just begun their XHTML Free online tutorial,
http://www.westciv.com/courses/free/index.html


Lisa

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 29 August 2005 10:14 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners


I'll shortly be teaching a class in HTML basics.

I'm confident in teaching them the *absolute* basics, but if the 
people in the class want to go on to be coders, which online 
resources would you recommend?

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RE: 'users with disabilities' WAS: [WSG] New front page for http: //ab c.net.au/

2005-08-04 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Hi Leslie,

Thanks for that, it's interesting to hear from the states about this and I
was hoping that there were some Deaf members on the list :) It would be
great to hear from anyone here in Australia on this point too.

Just to clarify my point, I was using 'big D' Deaf for culturally Deaf and
'little d' deaf for (as you said) in reference to the broader deaf
population. In my experience (I have worked professionally as an Auslan
interpreter for about ten years) 'hearing imparied' is used here (australia)
for culturally deaf people too (I wasn't clear there).
I've noticed that 'hard of hearing' is not really used by younger deaf in
the deaf community but also by older non-culturally deaf ie deaf through
age, but I could be wrong and am happy to be corrected by any aus deaf. I
can really only speak locally and am not sure about the states.

Hearing impaired is a term used by people 
who don't realize or understand what they are talking about, to describe 
Deaf or hard of hearing people.

This is definitely not my experience here in australia, in fact, I used to
work for a department that was known as the 'Deaf and Hearing Impaired'
support unit at TAFE (college here) that managed interpreters and note
takers and other educational support.

The word document [Issues in Educational Settings for Deaf Students and
Interpreters] http://tinyurl.com/8ffee uses 'Hearing Impaired' frequently
and is written by an Australian Deaf author, so I suspect it is a regional
difference.

All the best,

lisa 

-Original Message-
From: Leslie Riggs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 4:00 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: 'users with disabilities' WAS: [WSG] New front page for
http://ab c.net.au/



'Users with Disabilities' is better than 'disabled users' generally,
however, when referring to deaf users, it depends on whether the user is
culturally deaf or not.

Culturally Deaf users are those that use sign language for communication
and
belong to the deaf community. They're referred to as the big 'D' deaf. In
my
experience, most Deaf users would not like to be referred to as disabled as
they do not consider themselves to be disabled. This is Important to note

Other deaf users are usually referred to as hearing impaired or deaf (no
capital).

  

Ahem, being that I am Deaf and very actively involved in local and 
state-level communities in my little part of the U.S., I can tell you 
that there are precious few people who do not consider themselves Deaf 
who also would bristle at the term hearing impaired.  Hard of 
hearing is a better accepted term. The term deaf isn't real widely 
used except when referring to a broad population, such as when talking 
about the deaf community.  Hearing impaired is a term used by people 
who don't realize or understand what they are talking about, to describe 
Deaf or hard of hearing people.

Regarding the preference for dropdowns, that doesn't surprise me.  Deaf 
and hard of hearing people (especially those fluent in a sign language - 
ASL, BSL, USL) are exceptionally visually oriented.  When a menu drops 
down rather than flying out, it's easier to read and navigate down.  The 
information related to that menu item is closer to the item than when 
additional menu choices fly out to the side (with multiple choices 
listed vertically), which is a bit jarring.  It's also less effort than 
to try to keep the mouse within the hot spot to navigate sideways, 
then down to the desired link.

Leslie Riggs

Hope that helps and is not too off topic??

Lisa


Terrence Wood wrote:
I wonder why people with hearing disabilities requested dropdowns, is 
this result (statistically) valid, or just observed within your group?

btw, I'm pretty sure the correct term to use users with disabilities.

kind regards



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[WSG] Accessible/Usable Navigation WAS: New front page for http://abc. net.au/

2005-08-03 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Andreas

With regard to accessibility and usability testing, I'm very interested in
your comments about Deaf users in particular. Especially relating to
navigation, including Flyouts and Dropdowns.

Did the Deaf users you interviewed indicate why they had a preference for
drop-downs? 

From a usability/accessibility perspective, what made this type of
navigation more appealing to them?

What accessibility/usability issues did they have with the navigation you
were testing (can we have a link to view it?)

How many users with 'hearing disabilities' did you interview, and what was
the range of deafness - ie hearing impaired to culturally/signing Deaf?

All the best,

Lisa Herrod


-Original Message-
From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 12:55 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/



Actually we have done some usability testing with a range of disabled users
recently.  The site we tested did not have any dropdowns, however in
particular users with hearing disabilities and cognitive disabilities asked
for dropdowns to be added.





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'users with disabilities' WAS: [WSG] New front page for http://ab c.net.au/

2005-08-03 Thread Herrod, Lisa
'Users with Disabilities' is better than 'disabled users' generally,
however, when referring to deaf users, it depends on whether the user is
culturally deaf or not.

Culturally Deaf users are those that use sign language for communication and
belong to the deaf community. They're referred to as the big 'D' deaf. In my
experience, most Deaf users would not like to be referred to as disabled as
they do not consider themselves to be disabled. This is Important to note

Other deaf users are usually referred to as hearing impaired or deaf (no
capital).

Hope that helps and is not too off topic??

Lisa


Terrence Wood wrote:
I wonder why people with hearing disabilities requested dropdowns, is 
this result (statistically) valid, or just observed within your group?

btw, I'm pretty sure the correct term to use users with disabilities.

kind regards



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RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/ (Deafness and Con tent Length)

2005-08-03 Thread Herrod, Lisa

This is a really interesting thread and I have to say I've been waiting
years for something solid on deafness and accessibility and usability to
show it's pretty face here :)

I'd like to expand on something Andreas wrote about deafness and content
length. I completely agree with your comments and would like to say that as
much as Content Length is a usability issue for all users, it is definitely
an accessibility issue for many Deaf and hearing impaired (HI) users (as
well as other groups). 

I am not speaking on behalf of any deaf users nor am I generalising that
this applies to all deaf/HI users; the following is just based on my
experience working in the deaf community.

The link between deafness/usability/accessibility/content length is (as
Andreas wrote) largely based on educational experiences. This is for two
reasons:

1) Sign language is not a gestural version of English. The grammar and
syntax is completely different. Native Auslan (Australian sign language)
users have English as a second Language.
This is one reason why lengthy content is a usability/accessibility issue;
Users have to wade through content presented in their second language and
pick out key words.

2) For a long time, many deaf students were removed from class to attend
speech classes. This meant that they often missed fundemental lessons on
English, math, science, etc while being 'taught' how to say something they
couldn't hear. Another reason why content may be difficult to comprehend in
lengthy passages, and why point form is excellent. 

3) Sign language does not contain any where near as many synonyms as
english, so often the same sign will be used for many different english
words.

There are other reasons too, but I think this will give you some idea.

I guess the main point to get from this is that Sign language (Auslan, not
signed English, is not based on English and does not follow the same grammar
as English.

So while content length is a usability issue for a broad range of users, it
can be an accessibility issue for Deaf/HI users for a similar though
different reason.


Hope that has been of some interest ;)

lisa



-Original Message-
From: Donna Maurer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 2:15 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/


On 4 Aug 2005 at 13:55, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Me wrote:


But the users that did request
 the dropdowns mentioned following reasons:
 
 - Reduce mouse-clicks (especially on machines with slow Internet
 connection) - Get a quick, detailed overview of the content in all
 sections - Less content to read through
 
 The last point was in particular valuable for deaf users and users
 with reading impairment. As the website we tested had a lot of content
 on it, some users felt uncomortable with pages of long content.
 


That's interesting. Except for the example you gave (in a later post about
deafness 
and the resulting learning difficulties) I wouldn't like to infer a general
link between 
hearing impairment and content length.

Your learnings entirely reflect my experiences usability testing with people
without an 
impairment, so I'd take the comments as general usability issues, not
particular issues 
for people with a hearing impairment.

Donna

-- 
Donna Maurer
Maadmob Interaction Design

e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
work:   http://maadmob.com.au/
blog:   http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/
AOL IM: maadmob


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RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/ (Deafness and Con tent Length)

2005-08-03 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Sorry that should have said this is for a FEW reasons.


-Original Message-
From: Herrod, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 2:55 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/ (Deafness and
Con tent Length)




The link between deafness/usability/accessibility/content length is (as
Andreas wrote) largely based on educational experiences. 

This is for two reasons:

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RE: [WSG] Form Validation error

2005-05-04 Thread Herrod, Lisa
you've closed the opening tag:

form method=post action=../cgi-bin/mcart/mof.cgi /

:)

Lisa Herrod

-Original Message-
From: tee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 11:10 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Form Validation error


Hi, 
I run a validation for my order form and it gave me error :end tag for
element form which is not open  /form 

But I do have open form tag:

form method=post action=../cgi-bin/mcart/mof.cgi /
div id=formContentContent here/div
/form
My Doctype is xhtml transitional.

Also, have anybody done the e-commerce site that is fully xhtml validated?
I find it too much a challenge!

Tee

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RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa
It's also useful for users of other assistive technology devices, such as
head wands or those with limited mobility, as it reduces the number of
'tabs' a user is required to make to move further down the page.

lisa

-Original Message-
From: Sarah Peeke (XERT) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 14 April 2005 12:12 PM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility


HI all

I have just come across a css tip at
http://www.htmldog.com/guides/htmladvanced/links/ which
involves a css method to render the 'skip navigation' link invisible.

My question is: Does anyone else use this method, or another similar
technique?

Many sites I have seen *retain this link's visibility* despite it being
intended (AFAIK) primarily
for screen readers.

Thanks
Sarah
-- 
XERT Communications
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
office: +61 2 4782 3104
mobile: 0438 017 416

http://www.xert.com.au/   web development : digital imaging : dvd production
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RE: [WSG] flash and accessabilty

2005-04-11 Thread Herrod, Lisa


Patrick wrote:

But just to reiterate: even if you follow the recommended practices in
Bob's document...

Cna you please point me to this document, I seem to have missed it with all
that was going on here over the weekend.

Thanks,

lisa
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[WSG] Accessibility Checklist in Simple English

2004-12-01 Thread Herrod, Lisa

Hi list

I need to do some brief training at short notice on the WCAG priority 1
checkpoints and was just wondering if anyone had seen it in simple english.
ie. for people who really don't have any coding experience?

thanks in advance

Lisa



Regards

Lisa Herrod
Usability Analyst
02 9467 5047
---
 ...OLE_Obj... 

Sydney  Melbourne
112 Alexander Street28 Drummond Street
Crows Nest NSW 2065 Carlton South VIC 3053
P: 02 9467 5000  P: 03 9669 1700
F: 02 9467 5020  F: 03 9669 1799

www.testingcentre.com 


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RE: [WSG] New music site barring non IE browsers

2004-11-30 Thread Herrod, Lisa
I thought Firefox was the (or better)!


Regards 
Lisa Herrod 
Usability Analyst 
02 9467 5047
--- 
Access Testing Centre

Sydney  Melbourne 
112 Alexander Street28 Drummond Street 
Crows Nest NSW 2065 Carlton South VIC 3053 
P: 02 9467 5000  P: 03 9669 1700 
F: 02 9467 5020  F: 03 9669 1799 
www.testingcentre.com
 
This e-mail is confidential, intended solely for the addressees, and may be
legally privileged. If you're not the intended recipient, any access,
copying, distribution, or action taken or omitted relying on it is
prohibited and may be unlawful.


-Original Message-
From: Dave Rayner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] New music site barring non IE browsers


I went to check out http://hmv.ninemsn.com.au using Firefox and it gave me
this:

The site you have tried to enter requires Internet Explorer 6 (or better)
with Windows Media Player 7 (or better) on Windows XP, 2000, Me or 98. Click
Here to use our Doctor Download application to help you check your
configuration alternatively Email Dr Download.
Please try again.

Just when i was feeling confident about the web's progression, i see that.
It goes against a few really big things that web standards and the WSG is
fighting for.

I sent an email the 'doctor' just to show how disappointed i was. That'll
teach 'em.

dave rayner
freshweb
www.freshweb.com.au
m. 0409 037 250
p. +61 2 89202344
f. +61 2 89203008 


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RE: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...

2004-11-24 Thread Herrod, Lisa
This is an interesting point and a good example of where usability
evaluations and user-centred design can complement good design and technical
skill.

Paul said:
Since navigation presents a jargon problem, perhaps menu or another 
less techie term might work

And 

What's an appropriate metaphor for a navigation menu if you're not a 
programmer and if your interaction with the menu is functional  auditory 
and not visual?


We are all programmers/coders/techies to some extent. So many words become a
part of our vernacular over time and we often forget they mean something
very different to non-techies, who may, nonetheless, be experienced web
users.

As an example, 'FAQ'. Ask around for a definition and I bet you'll be
surprised by the variety of responses you get. 


Lisa


-Original Message-
From: Paul Novitski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:19 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...


Since navigation presents a jargon problem, perhaps menu or another 
less techie term might work:

Skip past menu
Jump over menu

What's an appropriate metaphor for a navigation menu if you're not a 
programmer and if your interaction with the menu is functional  auditory 
and not visual?

Also I wonder whether a concise table of contents for the page would work:

Jump to:
  - page content
  - page menu
  - website menu
  - page footer

Once users became accustomed to such a convention, they would know to take 
the first option most of the time.

And better than proceeding by speculation and trial  error, of course, 
would be to poll visually-impaired users to find out what metaphors  
wording they'd prefer.  I imagine this has already been done...?

Paul

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RE: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links

2004-10-21 Thread Herrod, Lisa
ahhh... I believe ladies and gents, that's what's known in the business as
an Intervention. russ, just move towards the light...

-Original Message-
From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:15 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb you are here links


 er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a
 breadcrumb in a list? The usual gt; seperators seem ideal, and if you
 disable styles it is still a breadcrumb; what is the obsession with
 putting everything in a list?

OK, I admit it... I am obsessed with lists and I hereby intend to use lists
for EVERYTHING from now on - even if pointless and counter-productive:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/list-obsessed/

(view source)

Russ

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RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations

2004-10-19 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Jason,

I worked on a site a while ago that required translation into 14 different
languages. It was an education based portal that contained a lot of text.
One of the issues we encountered was when documents were translated in a
word document and then supplied to the development team to transfer into a
HTML doc.

It might seem like an obvious problem now, but at the time it was one of the
things that got us. this site had hundreds of pages of text to translate
though. Yours might be a bit different.

Incidentally, do you mind telling me which translation agencies you've
approached? I have worked for quite a few of them in sydney and am just a
bit curious :)

Hope that helps,

Lisa

ps haha funny joke about using a big image! :)

-Original Message-
From: Jason Foss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:10 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Foreign Translations


Greetings!

I have a client who wants part of their website translated into a few other
languages, some of them Asian (Chinese  Korean are a couple). I have
obtained a couple of quotes from translation agencies to actually do the
translations, but does anyone have experience with actually implementing
this sort of thing in a website?

The easy way is to make an image out of the translation and pop that there -
but I don't want to do that for obvious reasons!!! I'm reading a bit about
character sets and encoding, but it's all a bit abstract at this point. Any
experiences or how-to references would be much appreciated!

Ta
Jason
 
**
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www.almost-anything.com.au
Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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We can do almost anything!

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RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations

2004-10-19 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Just to repeat what I was saying before, be really careful with the word
docs. you really need to have one of the translators proof the text on
screen to check for errors including strange characters and word breaks etc.

-Original Message-
From: Jason Foss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 12:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations


They are being provided in a Word document. Do you know if you can pull
Unicode out of that? 

Thanks!
 
**
Jason Foss
Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
www.almost-anything.com.au
Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701
We can do almost anything!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 11:27 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Foreign Translations

Jason,

haven't got direct experience in doing this, but my gut feeling would be to
encode everything in unicode (UTF-8) as it should cover most character sets
required. You'll need the translated bits of text provided as unicode as
well, to place within your document.

Does that make sense?

Patrick H. Lauke
_
re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re-
+ dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com

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[WSG] Off Topic - Usability question for WSG members

2004-10-17 Thread Herrod, Lisa



Hello all,All of us here are interested in 
the use of web standards for various reasons including the positive impact it 
has on the user experience.Add these considerations to the interface 
design and there's a lot of things to consider with regard to the final impact 
on the end user.What I'd like to know is your personal opinion of what 
you think impacts the user experience both positively and negatively. This might 
be based on testing you've done, research, reading or intuition, but whatI 
wantis your personal ideas on:1) The 5 most common usability 
issues that typically hinder a positive user experience.2) The 5 most 
common usability issues that typically add to a positive user 
experience. Listing 1 as the highest rating and 5 as 
the lowest rating.
Also if you could indicate your role (eg web 
designer, programmer, educator etc) and whether or not you have completed user 
testing in the past, thatwould be great.
My intention is to compile all answers and 
report back to the list once more with the final results. No respondants or the 
organisation for which they work will be identified personally. The information 
is being gathered for personal interest only and will not be used in any way for 
commercial use or profit.Please reply to me off-list. 
Thanks in advance,
Lisa


RE: [WSG] Off Topic - Usability question for WSG members

2004-10-17 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Sorry everyone, I hadn't realised.

Thanks for the email.

Lisa


-Original Message-
From: Hugh Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 1:16 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Off Topic - Usability question for WSG members


Lisa,

Not answering your question, but as far as usability of the *WSG list* 
is concerned, please remember to use plain text emails. Sorry that you 
happen to be the one who cops criticism this time, but could all list 
members please remember *not* to use HTML emails.

In your case, Lisa (and in many others) your text looks really tiny in 
my email program, which affects legibility.

:) Hugh Todd

 What I'd like to know is your personal opinion of what you think 
 impacts the user experience both positively and negatively.

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RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Herrod, Lisa
I think the key word here is choice.

you can choose to open it up in a new window if that's your preference. But
where it makes surfing impossible , or difficult, then it probably shouldn't
be the default.

Lisa

-Original Message-
From: Wayne Godfrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?


Okay, I'll stick my neck out here for a list chopping.

I personally like opening a new window whenever I'm web surfing. It's
something that I got into a habit or doing long ago and far away. I'm still
waiting for a big, honking G5 to be sitting under my fingertips, but until
that day I'm stuck on a G3 Mac at OS9 on IE5.1.7. I hate the IE interface
(actually, I hate all browser interfaces) and I close it down to nothing but
the address bar. The back, forward, stop and reload buttons are available in
the top left hand corner, but the only one I really use is the reload
button. Even with the tab browsers that I've tried, I still end up opening a
new tab more often than using the back and forward buttons. This is just the
way I ended up traveling the web, I'm sure that others have their own ways
as well. I've discussed this with my partners and others and they all like
the open a new window concept. I fully understand the other point of view
and why the W3C believes what they believe. I've never been ticked off by a
site opening a link in a new window, but I sure as heck have been royally
unhappy with pop-up, under and through windows as well as poorly coded java
script that freeze my machine or web sites that only work in IE for windows.
In fact, those are much higher sins (IMHO) than opening a link in a new
window...

gulp


On 10/5/04 7:19 PM, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am
 really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as
 the benfits of opening new windows.
 
 ./tdw
 
 
 john wrote:
 Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have
 external links going into a new browser window.  I can see why some
 would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it.
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RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Herrod, Lisa



Ryan there's a lot to discuss in what you've just said. but just on this one
point, I'd like to make a comment:

 Trust me, user testing would find the contextual scenario much more
pleasing.

In most of the usability testing I've conducted or been involved in,
participants have stated that they do not like pop up windows. That hasn't
included any participants with disabilities though, so they may differ. But
I doubt it.

Lisa



-Original Message-
From: Ryan Nichols [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 3:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?


The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual
information. Usually this is in more of a web application scenario than
a website per-se. So you have to think more broadly in the term of
website than serving documents with content in them (ala 'surfing').
Contextual information has been used for a looong time in user
interfaces. Just think of the numerous desktop applications you use on a
daily basis and how they use pop-up windows to either prompt for more
data, or provide other useful information.

If you think about these scenarios, it is when the application needs to
present something new to you, but do so in a way that you don't lose
your context. You don't want to alter the layout of the 'page' for this,
because the content may not be directly related, and it can confuse the
user from accomplishing their task.

Think of complex scenarios such as when your funneling a user through a
shopping cart checkout. In these scenarios, you do not want to distract
the user in any way from the task, you don't want to confuse them.
However, often you might need to collect data on a particular topic
related to the checkout process. This is a fantastic time to use
contextual windows. They allow the user to answer the question in a way
that they can still 'see' or be aware of what they were originally
doing, rather than going to another page and losing context. Now the
reason 'it's up to the user' bit doesn't apply is because this is an
application. The user is already using the application and they are
actively engaged in it. Applications are geared to helping the user
accomplish a task. Passive browsing is different, and most of the
arguments expressed here are great points for that user context. 

To use another example, imagine a long article on a webpage. You
funneled through the navigation and selected your article you are going
to invest time to read. The article has a lot of diagrams. This is a
good place to use contextual information. Think of a physical book. Ever
been anoyed at having to skip ahead or back to find that diagram they
referenced? Your annoyed because you lost your context, you lost your
place in the text and had to go somewhere else to find the extra
information. In a web article, those same diagrams can 'popup' in small
windows, and you can view and close them without having to lose your
place. This is not possible by sending the user to a whole new webpage.
Trust me, user testing would find the contextual scenario much more
pleasing. Also remember dial-up users. Loading and reloading that page
takes time, even with 'cache'. Viewing the contextual information is
much faster if it appears in it's own window.

Now you could use DHTML for this. This is a pretty feasible alternative.
But it has drawbacks all its own. The issue is not the mechanism for
'popping up', it's the usability of contextual information that is the
issue. Remember there are years of history in user experience design for
applications, and those tried and true methods don't fall off the face
of the planet with a new medium :)

Cheers 


Ryan Nichols
Graphic Design / Web Development
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terrence Wood
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 4:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am
really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as
the benfits of opening new windows.

./tdw


john wrote:
 Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have 
 external links going into a new browser window.  I can see why some 
 would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it.
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RE: [WSG] Sydney WSG meeting recap

2004-09-16 Thread Herrod, Lisa
I'll go the Elephant stamp...

Great work Ben and also, it was a really interesting presentation.

Thanks for all the effort involved in getting clearance to show us the site
too.

Lisa

-Original Message-
From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:12 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Sydney WSG meeting recap


After listening to Ben's presentation I feel he deserves a big *Gold* 
Star for work above and beyond the call of duty :-)

Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development  IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav

russ - maxdesign wrote:
 Another huge night tonight at the Sydney WSG with 40 people in attendance.
 Thank you to all who turned up.
 
 We had two presentations: Mark Stanton talked about semantically correct
 mark-up and Ben Bishop talked us through a recent site that has just gone
 live - built with web standards, of course. Great stuff! Both
presentations
 will be available online in the near future.
 
 A big thank you to both presenters.
 
 PS. I have some lost property. Someone left behind a CD with image files
(or
 at least that is what the label says). Contact me off-list if you think it
 is yours.
 
 Russ
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[WSG] absolute positioning and screen magnifiers

2004-09-15 Thread Herrod, Lisa


Just wondering if anyone knows much about the impact of absolute positioning
on people who are using screen magnifiers.

see you tonight...

Lisa
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[WSG] web essentials briefing/ westciv CSS Guide

2004-09-02 Thread Herrod, Lisa

Thanks to everyone involved in organising last nights breifing, it was
really, really great. 

If last night is any indication of what WE04 is going to be like, steal your
mama's purse and get there guys. 

I was also lucky enough to win a copy of the Web Essentials starter Kit,
which I've been going through this morning and it's excellent. I have to
admit, I was hoping to win that free ticket to pass on to a friend - I've
booked mine already!! - but sorry to say jimmy G, I'm much happier to have
this CSS Guide instead (sorry mate!).

See you all in a few weeks ;)


lisa

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RE: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0

2004-08-25 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Thanks for that Mike, It's a great page of info!

Lisa

-Original Message-
From: Mike Foskett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0


Lisa,
I've been doing a little work on this subject:

  Accessible form guidelines.
  Attaching focus to objects via with  JS via the DOM.
  Accessible expanded help.

It's still a work in progress (not that clear) but I'm happy to take
critiques, suggestions, improvements, rewordings, e.t.c
It'll probably be a couple of months until it's finished.

  http://www.webSemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_elements/

Though I'd be hard pressed to recommend tabindex at all.

Hope it helps

mike 2k:)2
 

marqueeblink [EMAIL PROTECTED] /marquee/blink
http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
 


-Original Message-
From: Herrod, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 25 August 2004 02:53
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0


Looking for opinions on the use of  javascript for input control focus and
tab index, instead of actually using the 'tabindex' attribute...

I understnd that incomplete browser support of tabindex might influence this
choice, ie javascript. But this would then force the use of the 'name'
attribute which is formally deprecated in xhtml 1.0.

I guess it improves accessibility but reduces compliance.

Any thoughts?

Lisa

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RE: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0

2004-08-25 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Thanks Patrick,

I'd noticed it was validating with name in form elements other than 'form'.
Thanks for the link too ;)

Lisa

-Original Message-
From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 5:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0


Name is still perfectly valid for form elements (inputs, selects, etc), 
just not for the FORM element itself.
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_forms
In any case, you should be using DOM scripting (with IDs assigned to the 
relevant elements and getElementById or similar), which works just fine.

Patrick

Herrod, Lisa wrote:
 Looking for opinions on the use of  javascript for input control focus and
 tab index, instead of actually using the 'tabindex' attribute...
 
 I understnd that incomplete browser support of tabindex might influence
this
 choice, ie javascript. But this would then force the use of the 'name'
 attribute which is formally deprecated in xhtml 1.0.
 
 I guess it improves accessibility but reduces compliance.
 
 Any thoughts?
 
 Lisa
 
 **
 The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 
 Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
 To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
 
  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
 **
 
 
 
 

-- 
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com

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 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
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RE: [WSG] Best Aussie and Kiwi web standards designers

2004-08-25 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Title: RE: [WSG] Best Aussie and Kiwi web standards designers



yeah, 
apparently these guys know what they're talking about too ;)
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/

Lisa

  -Original Message-From: Peter Ottery 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, August 26, 
  2004 10:31 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: 
  [WSG] Best Aussie and Kiwi web standards designers
  Andy asked  However I'm always on the lookout for more 
  cool, standards compliant sites, so wondered who you guys felt which companies 
  and individuals were turning out the best work down under?
  2 that i'm pretty sure are on this list: http://www.freshweb.com.au/ http://www.glassonion.com.au/ 
  and http://waferbaby.com/ which is 
  related to: http://www.segpub.com.au 
  this is just a quick blurt from my short term memory and i'm 
  in no way affiliated with any of these. 
  anyone else? 
  pete 


[WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0

2004-08-24 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Looking for opinions on the use of  javascript for input control focus and
tab index, instead of actually using the 'tabindex' attribute...

I understnd that incomplete browser support of tabindex might influence this
choice, ie javascript. But this would then force the use of the 'name'
attribute which is formally deprecated in xhtml 1.0.

I guess it improves accessibility but reduces compliance.

Any thoughts?

Lisa

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 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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