Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice

2006-03-20 Thread Jay Gilmore

Nancy Johnson wrote:
I believe best practices are to have all images in a directory entitled 
images, all css, in a folder entitled css  etc etc,
 
However, there are exceptions.  I work for a college and have 200 images 
of headshots of faculty and put in an a separate directory for 
management purposes.
 
You need to look at how the site is used and managed.  Best Practices, 
isn't always 100% appropriate.
 
Nancy Johnson

Nancy,

I don't believe that anyone here is suggesting that Best Practices is 
some sort of dogma. They are practices -- ways of doing things that work 
well under a number of circumstances. What we are looking for is not 
some ultimate format or way but solutions that might be better than our own.


Wikipedia: The term best practice generally refers to the best possible 
way of doing something;...


All the best,

Jay

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Re: [WSG] Website Directory Structure - Best Practice

2006-03-18 Thread Jay Gilmore

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:



How do YOU set up your directories?


Joe,

The way I have set up directories is as follows:

/root_web_folder
 /_images
 /_images/content
 /_images/content/content_image.jpg...etc.(photos, illustrations etc.)
 /_images/layout
 /_images/layout/layout_image.jpg...etc.(backgrounds, buttons etc.)

 /_includes/
 /_includes/all.inc.php

 /_scripts
 /_scripts/all.js

 /_styles
 /_styles/common.css
 /_styles/IElte6.css
 /_styles/IE7B2P.css

 /main_section_one/
 /main_section_one/index.php...etc.
 /main_section_one/all_other_section_pages.php

 /main_section_two/
 /main_section_two/index.php...etc.
 /main_section_one/all_other_section_pages.php

 /index.php...etc.

As you can see, I keep most images, stylesheets, scripts, and includes 
in  separate directories with an underscore prefix so they appear in 
directory listings before the main-section directories. I always make 
main section directories and have an index page so I can use relative 
directory paths for main section links as opposed to some filename in 
the root web directory. I also separate my images into content and 
layout so that when I am changing or updating templates or site themes I 
don't accidentally delete or lose the content images.


I don't know if this is a standard--other than for me. I would love to 
see other views and examples of this.


BTW I am aware that it is not a best practice in php security to leave 
the includes folder in the web root folder.


All the best,

Jay

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Re: [WSG] Stand alone IE6 Installer

2006-03-17 Thread Jay Gilmore

Helmut Granda wrote:
Does anyone know if there is a stand alone IE6 installer anywhere? 
Similar to IE4 and IE5. I am running IE7 and I really don’t want to 
uninstall just to test couple of sites on IE6.


 


...helmut

 


Helmut,

What you are running is a preview release of IE7 Beta 2 not even Beta 2. 
If the MIX06 release is out then you are running Beta 2 but the MS IE 
blog has made many attempts to explain that there are still changes 
coming. In addition it will not be in General Availability till 2007. 
There are lots of great articles about running IE7 as a standalone and 
solution that I am using has a batch file that fixes a registry entry 
that will screw up your IE 6 when they are run on the same machine.


I would strongly suggest that you switch back to IE6 and use a SA 
version of the IE7 release that is out now.


Just my opinion.

All the best,

Jay

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Re: [WSG] Stand alone IE6 Installer

2006-03-17 Thread Jay Gilmore

Helmut Granda wrote:

Jay,

Thanks for your explanation and your recommendation, I didn't think of using
IE7 as SA (I didn't even knew it was available). I am aware that I'm running
a Beta and all of the technical difficulties that could come with using Beta
software. But I'm not too concerned since I don't use IE as my primary
Browser; actually I use FF for work and Opera for personal usage.

Thanks again!

...helmut


The solution, explanation and script are located here:
http://weblogs.asp.net/jgalloway/archive/2005/12/28/434132.aspx

To install the ie7 as a standalone try here:
http://www.sitepoint.com/newsletter/viewissue.php?id=5issue=18

Scroll down for the instructions.

I also found a link that has both above links included on the same 
article here:

http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2006/02/12/standalone-ie7-the-fix/

ATB,

Jay

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Re: [WSG] WSG Site

2006-03-16 Thread Jay Gilmore

Tom Livingston wrote:

Listers,

This is most likely old news, but I seem to have been having mail problems
for over 1/2 a day so did not get wsg list messages for a while...

Is the WSG site down? Or is it just me?


I noticed that the website was down yesterday. It is now up for me here.
I haven't suffered any list stoppages or slowdowns though. There might
have been some DNS issue that may have caused it to go invisible. In
certain areas. It'd be worth investigating.

Jay

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Re: [WSG] Employee Hierarchy in CSS

2006-03-16 Thread Jay Gilmore

Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:

Hi Micky,


Why do you want to present an empty container?


As I already (perhaps badly) explained, I need to show a visual
hierarchy of employees.

The first row has the MD.
The second row the GM, Financial Controller and PA.
The third row all other Managers (7 in total).

I need to keep the MD (in the first row) in the middle of the row.
The second row will have some gaps as there are only 3 staff.
The third row has seven Managers.

All of this needs to be centered on the page. 
 

UL
LI PDFNIMGCAPTION/P

or

UL
LI DFNIMGPCAPTION/P/LI


Not sure how these examples improve the elegance of the solution.
 




Any other ideas please?

Sarah

Sarah,

Using Russ' layout (which is to achieve a floated gallery) for what 
sounds to me to be an organizational root/tree structure seems to fail 
if the styles are unavailable. Your relationships between your clusters 
or groups will not exist without the CSS and therefore have reduced 
meaning.


I would think that you want something like: (example at 
http://www.smashingred.com/test/floated_org_chart.html)


ol
liTop Level Post
ul
liimgpCaption/p/li
/ul
/li
li2nd Level Posts
ul id=level2
liimgpCaption/p/li
liimgpCaption/p/li
liimgpCaption/p/li
/ul

/li
li3rd Level Posts
ul
liimgpCaption/p/li
liimgpCaption/p/li
liimgpCaption/p/li
liimgpCaption/p/li
liimgpCaption/p/li
liimgpCaption/p/li
liimgpCaption/p/li
/ul
/li
/ol

with the styles similar to what follows:

ol, ul{
bullet-style-type:none;
padding:0;
margin:0;
}

ol li ul li {
display:inline;
float: left;
width: 100px;
border: 1px solid blue;
margin:0 5px;

}
ol ul{
clear:both;
display: block;
height: 150px;
}
li ul li {
text-align:center;
}

I have created a valid test page at 
http://www.smashingred.com/test/floated_org_chart.html please let me 
know if that helps. If anyone wants to ad to this please let me know and 
I will make the changes.


All the best.

Jay

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Re: [WSG] Employee Hierarchy in CSS

2006-03-16 Thread Jay Gilmore

Geoff Pack wrote:

Hi Sarah,

I agree with Jay - it should be a nested list, but I'd avoid floats completely 
and use absolute positioning to lay it out. I'd also change the nesting to 
reflect the org structure, not just the level.

Assuming the managers report to the GM, then:

ul id=orgChart
liMD
ul
liFC/li
liGM
ul
liManager 1/li
liManager 2/li
liManager 3/li
liManager 4/li
liManager 5/li
liManager 6/li
liManager 7/li
/ul
/li
liPA/li
/ul
/li
/ul


Geoff, Sarah,

My only suggestion is to have the outer list as an ol as there is an 
explicit order of value/importance and it could be indicated when the 
list is unstyled. But this solution looks great.


Jay

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Re: [WSG] CAPS in stylesheets

2006-03-12 Thread Jay Gilmore

sime wrote:

define practically redundant.



I consider HTML 4.01 strict to be practically awesome for new web
sites, but that's more of personal preference.


Which brings me back to my original question question. Rephrased, what 
are the different situations in which you'd use HTML4 over XHTML1? So 
far I've been led to believe (outside of this list) that XHTML is a step 
forward.


Many people, especially editor developers, have been implementing 
default DOCTYPES as either XHTML transitional and XHTML strict and many 
authors of great books have done the same but from what I understand is 
that many of these people have adopted XHTML incorrectly simply because 
it is newer.


Unfortunately, is is not made clear by the W3C -- in plain English and 
succinctly that it (XHTML) is not a replacement or update for HTML but a 
different spec altogether. There are uses for XHTML, but for most 
computer based web browsers there is no real advantage to XHTML as they 
just treat it as HTML anyway.


I have also read (no personal first hand knowledge) that there can be 
issues between using DOM/DHTML scripts and XHTML. I don't know what 
these issues are but why invite trouble. I think many standards oriented 
people have moved or stayed with HTML 4.0X and those who are using XHTML 
are either using it incorrectly and unknowing of its proper application 
or the minute few who are actually serving it as application/xhtml+xml.


Jay

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[WSG] Wanted ASAP: Clean and Simple image gallery script

2006-03-11 Thread Jay Gilmore
If anyone on this list knows of or has a clean and simple PHP/MySQL 
image gallery script that is not full of nested tables and is easy to 
modify with a basic php knowledge I need it for a project. Preferably 
one that uses GD and not Imagemagik and doesn't require register globals 
 to be on and safe mode off.


Of list responses are fine but I think others may be interested in a 
possible resource.


All the best,

Jay

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Re: [WSG] Wanted ASAP: Clean and Simple image gallery script

2006-03-11 Thread Jay Gilmore

Lukasz Grabun wrote:


Fulfills, AFAIK, all or most of your requirements.

After peeking at the site and looking at the demo code I think you have 
hit the nail on the head.


I am open to other suggestions from members though.

ATB,

Jay

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Re: [WSG] Site Check/Launch: Edentiti.com

2006-03-02 Thread Jay Gilmore

Lachlan Hunt wrote:



It was decided by the designer and management that they wanted the logo 
on the homepage to be slightly larger and more prominent as a branding 
exercise, but to then move it up to the header, out of the way for all 
the sub pages.


offtopic class=slightly

You may want to send them a copy of Steve Krug's Don't Make Me Think. 
This is a big no no as far as conventions are concerned. My opinion is 
that it looks like ad clutter below the header. Because of the line used 
to delineate the navigation it looks like content not a site id and when 
the page loads I don't know what site I am on and what it is about. 
There is no tagline to give meaning to the site. I may just leave 
because it isn't apparent as to what the site purpose is.


I think that there is not enough pop (visually) for the calls to action. 
From a marketing standpoint I find it hard to figure out what I want to 
do next and there is no lead to the action by color, shape etc. We do 
use these cues regardless of the content.


From a designer and marketer point of view there should be a graphical 
flow chart with the service explanation that shows what this does.


/offtopic

The orange color and font-weight of the Edentiti is a safe secure 
private place for your identification information. is too light and the 
contrast is low. I think it either needs to be heavier, larger or 
reverse the colors of the h2 and the above sentence. BTW what is with 
the nested strong elements? Is this countering the effect in FF?


Don't beat yourself up over the XHTML thing -- it is called working in 
the real world.



Jay



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Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

2006-02-23 Thread Jay Gilmore

Herrod, Lisa wrote:



Christian, can you point us to an example where home text has been added to
the logo on site sub-pages? I'm really interested to see the type of sites
that are implementing this.


Lisa,

This idea appears on page 63 and then discussed on page 67 of Steve 
Krug's, Don't Make Me Think. The sample site he shows in the image is 
of MSNBC.com's.


In the example it shows that the top level MSNBC logo with no home on 
it and all subsections with the home. They have changed their site 
(http://www.msnbc.com ) since the book came out, the home is no longer 
on the logo and they are using a top level breadcrumb trail to get you 
there as well as a clickable logo.


I would argue that their current use of the bc-trail actually makes it 
harder to figure out how to get back home. Ah well -- designers.


All the best,
Jay

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Re: [WSG] problem with Conditional Comments

2006-02-20 Thread Jay Gilmore

Christian Montoya wrote:

On 2/20/06, Soeren Mordhorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Tried these CCs in multiple ways, but it does not work. For example:

...

Any suggestions?


As far as I know, if you have standalone installs of IE 5 and 6 on
your machine, they will not see the conditional comments.


Christian,

This article seems to have the fix. 
http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/multiIE.html
The article on IE7 Standalone at Sitepoint ( 
http://www.sitepoint.com/newsletter/viewissue.php?id=5issue=18#5 ) 
works fine.
I read another article about a better (haven't tried it so don't know) 
standalone of 7 so that its conditionals work.

http://blog.skyzyx.com/2006/02/02/internet-explorer-70-beta-2-standalone-is-available/
and
http://weblogs.asp.net/jgalloway/archive/2005/12/28/434132.aspx for the 
batch file for launching.


Jay
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Re: [WSG] Breadcrumb as Section Heading H1

2006-02-20 Thread Jay Gilmore

Terrence Wood wrote:

James Hunter:

Is it appropriate to use the breadcrumb as the H1 element?




I'm thinking out aloud here: not sure why, but using a list for 
breadcrumbs doesn't quite sit right with me, despite it being a type of 
navigation device. I think it is due to list structures replacing the 
dir and menu elements - and the notion that the site hierarchy 
represented as links is distinctly different from a navigation menu. 
Anyone else have thoughts on this?


Based on that idea wouldn't it make sense to do something like:

ul
 liMain Site Parent/li
  ul
   liSection Parent/li
ul
 liDocument Parent/li
  ul
  liCurrent Document/li
  /ul
/ul
   /ul
/ul

Provided your head doesn't explode nesting the lists it gives you a nice 
hierarchical structure for the list that looks great with no styles. You 
could then style the child li elements to have the less than symbols 
as the list bullet?


Any thoughts?


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Re: [WSG] Plugin - was [ just sharing the frustration ]

2006-02-15 Thread Jay Gilmore

Designer wrote:

Jay Gilmore wrote:

. . . I usually paste as plain text into HTML-Kit and I have a plugin 
that converts line breaks into p p and also can turn text lists 
into ul's or ol's.




Hey Jay,

Can you tell us more? What plugin?  Sounds very handy!

Thanks

Bob McClelland
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk






Bob,

If you are an HTML-Kit user the plugin is called wkStructure and is 
available at http://www.chami.com/html-kit/plugins/info/wkstructure/ . I 
am sure that there are good ways to do these sorts of things in 
DreamWeaver but I quit using it two years ago when I found HTML-Kit as 
it Dreamweaver is a system resources pig for someone who would only use 
code view.


There are hundreds of plugins for Hkit and more than I will ever use. 
There are limits to the program as it is not a very good IDE for PHP 
which Dreamweaver is.


All the best,

Jay
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Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

2006-02-14 Thread Jay Gilmore

Ted Drake wrote:

Here's a helpful hint on doing this crap.
Use htmlTidy, while I haven't used this, I've heard it's really good.

Normally, what I do is create a new basic html page in dreamweaver.
I go to the design view and paste the content into the screen.
I then switch to code view and run a few search and replaces to clean it up.
Dreamweaver does a pretty good job of turning word into decent coding.


If people would only use styles in word, i.e. header tags, ul, etc. pasting
into dreamweaver would be a five minute exercise.

Ted



HTML-Kit has a tool to strip extra Word 2000 tags although, I usually 
paste as plain text into HTML-Kit and I have a plugin that converts line 
breaks into p p and also can turn text lists into ul's or ol's. 
It doesn't see nested levels in lists though.


I actually insist that my clients send me copy in plain text documents 
where possible and even then I have to fix all the windows charset 
issues. Damned smart quotes and auto mdashes.


Jay
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Re: [WSG] Web design education

2006-02-13 Thread Jay Gilmore

Minh D. Tran wrote:
I personally believe as Accessibility Evangelists, part of our 
responsibilities is to bring this to their attention. These are web 
designing instructors, they are teaching more and more people to design 
the tables way, which is the exact way that we are trying eliminate.


This is the exact same reason for my main argument in my thread on 
Calling for a scalable business case for web standards for small 
business. My point was, and still is, that groups like WaSP and WSG need 
to take more of an advocacy role on in the larger community. Yes it 
makes sense to convert the people who have gone through these programs 
but if business demanded that sites be standards based and accessible 
then schools who teach otherwise will stop graduating people into nested 
table hell.


Don't tell me to join a WSG in my local area. Don't tell me that we 
should just keep doing the work. We need to get up on our soap boxes and 
convert business, thought leaders and educators that standards matter 
and that building a broken web is bad for everyone.


I know that there are members of WaSP who are trying to get educators on 
board but there is still a bunch of people out there who are ex graphic 
designers or visual developers who know only Dreamweaver or StopDead 
(GoLive) who are asked to teach because they have won some prize or 
worked for a big company.


All the best,

Jay
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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Jay Gilmore




Hey Tierry and Terrance, 

This is a respectful suggestion. Since Jakob Nielsen is not dead and
Useit.com is not the King James Bible, Talmud, Torah, Quaran etc., why
not email him and get his opinion on this. In fact, I asked his opinion
on this recent adlinks phenomena just today, where sites are using
scripts to place / selling ads linking to sites that don't relate
specifically to the article. He responded briefly within two hours. 

All the best,

Jay

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

  Terrence Wood wrote:
  
  
  
Wow! This time you're seriously wrong.
What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret
the USEIT articles. FYI, I'm not only using skip links, but also popup
windows. Does that make me unaware of the issues related to both?

  
  

  the popup window reference is irrelevant.
If you simply replace "opening new windows" with "using jump links"
  

If you replaced it with "chocolate orange cake" it would make sense
according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how
wrong that logic is.

  
  
I disagree, and FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. One can click on a
"jump link", not on a "chocolate orange cake".

  
  
What you are calling "jump links" are nothing more than hypertext
links. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define
hypertext links like this: "A link is a connection from one web
resource to another [1]... The destination anchor of a link may be an
element within an HTML document.[2]"

  
  
That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with
usability/accessibility. It is about how things are supposed to  work, not
how they are supposed to be implemented. For example, accesskey is a proper
attribute, part of the recommendations, but there are
usability/accessibility issues attached to it, isn't? And there are other
examples...

  
  

  It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency*
  

Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed
that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of
links to resources within a page is a convention for the web.

  
  
So how can you say that "jump links" in a document are consistent with the
navigation links for example? Users click on the latter and are taken to
another page, they click on the former and are taken in a different location
on the same page. How consistent is that?

Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen
when he clicks on something that is going to do anything else than loading a
*new* document. We see that with links that open popup windows so why should
we think it should be different with other "behaviors"? In short, I believe
that a FAQ page that says "clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below" is
less an issue than "jump links" that do not warn the user of what's gonna
happen next.

Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

2006-02-06 Thread Jay Gilmore
I am coming to realize that there is little real business case for small 
business. Total cost of operation of a website for a small business 
might be marginal.


My reasoning for this thread was to formulate a position statement that 
could be communicated to small business leaders to have them carry the 
message that web standards will mean x and y to all business owners and 
that we would then see demand follow. I was not hoping to find out ways 
to convince Joe or Jane business owner to buy my services based on 
standards in our sales cycle. I am looking longer view and want to find 
ways to show the business community that they have no choice but to have 
standards.


Everyone in this thread seems to gravitate to the, but its better 
argument. Don't get me wrong I am a strong supporter of web standards 
and love learning more and more about how to become better at coding 
pages in such a fashion but we all seem to miss that a website is not 
and end in itself but a means to an end and that the risk for the small 
business owner if they buy a site with sloppy code and non-semantic 
markup is negligible. If they have bad copy or they don't communicate 
their message that is deadly. HTML and its ilk is merely a vehicle for 
communication and not communication and sometimes even when the 
transmission is messy the message is communicated.


Websites for small business are an extension of their marketing strategy 
and a way to help achieve their goals. If we can't come up with a strong 
business case for the 80% of business that has less than 20 employees 
(Canadian Stats). We are failing them. They deserve to get great, well 
made websites they just need to know why and what it is worth.


As I said at the outset of this thread, I want a way to create wide 
demand for the use of standards as opposed to converting individuals and 
creating apostles to the standards movement. I want to create such a 
compelling argument that business can't ignore it and that some thought 
leaders will take that message and start spreading it like a virus so 
that it can geometrically extends into the small towns and little 
neighborhood shops and then we no longer need even attempt to push it to 
clients (which we shouldn't do anyway ) and have them demand it,  I 
want a standards based website -- can you deliver? This will do two 
things, one make all those developers who have been sitting on the fence 
about moving to standards pick a side and two all the larger firms that 
reject or ignore standards will either have to adapt or go home.


Lets all put our thinking caps on, talk to our clients and talk to the 
community and find out how we can make small business want standards, 
and demand standards!


All the best,

Jay

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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

2006-02-06 Thread Jay Gilmore


Jan Brasna wrote:


 I want a standards based website -- can you deliver?



This premise is wrong. When I'm buying a house I also do not 
explicitly state that I want it to be built with standards, however I 
anticipate it's not going to fall on my head soon.



I don't agree with this analogy.

Standards that govern the construction of homes and buildings in most 
western nations are set by regulating arms of the government and are 
there for the mortal protection of person and property. It is not a 
business case it is a matter of safety and liability. So you don't die 
and so governments aren't allowing unsafe buildings to be built under 
their watch. And BTW if you assume all the work done in your home meets 
standards I would strongly advise getting a home inspector in. Standards 
change and people who don't know what they are doing can ruin anything 
that was built on standards -- just like on the web.


Web standards are a set of principles based around the recommendations 
of various authorities and experts for the purpose of excellence and 
professionalism -- they have no real danger if ignored. Web standards 
are more like ISO9000 management certification, companies that have this 
certification adhere to guidelines based on management structure and 
coordination but if a company lets their ISO status slide because they 
stop filing management reports is doing harm only to themselves in that 
their operation may become disorganized or tatty. A few customers will 
choose to not work with them as a result of the status change but if the 
product is the same when it changes hands and the support is intact etc. 
the end user really doesn't care that certification exists or not.


No one will die or be harmed as a result of tag soup or demi-infinite 
nested tables. The website may be built on a rubble foundation but there 
are no regulatory bodies to make sure that they won't collapse (pardon 
the CSS pun).


It's the professional side of all the suppliers. If you want to target 
the educational influence, do it there. Clients shouldn't care - they 
have own businesses to look after.



I do agree, and that is my main point, but those influencers, first 
movers and thought leaders are business people and there needs to be 
some compelling reason for them to adopt and then evangelize web 
standards. My ongoing struggle is that we (web standards oriented 
developers) have made, what I think is, a case for larger enterprise in 
cost, maintenance, bandwidth etc. I want to develop a consistent, 
concise, and compelling case for these leaders to grab onto web standards.


What I have come to realise is that groups like WaSP and WSG need to get 
together and put forth a path to conversion for business to integrate 
web standards into their operations. We have not focus so much attention 
on criticizing those who won't move forward and make them obsolete by 
making web standards THE standard that business demands of developers. 
There will always be those who want to  focus on publish-day price only 
and maybe they get what they pay for but not what they deserve. The WSG 
and WaSP should make an effort to be more in touch with business beyond 
trying to make IE a halfway decent browser but in creating respect, 
understanding and desire for a better, more functional, more agile web.


As always, all the best,

Jay


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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

2006-02-03 Thread Jay Gilmore





Ben Bishop wrote:
On
2/3/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  I
want to go beyond the
argument of separation of information and presentation markup. 
  
What sort of resistance are you facing here? I.e. why are you arguing
in the first place?
  
  

The definition of argument I am using is support of a position and not
disagreement.

  
  That
portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage
of semantics, logical content markup
  
  
I don't understand what kind of clients you have that are pushing for
non-semantic and illogical markup.

This is not the case at all.

Are you looking for ammunition to try to convince a business they
really need a new website because their current one isn't standards
based? Are you looking for an explanation of why you are different to
all the other web developers out there?
  
  

No. and No 
Ultimately,
do you really need to "sell" web standards to the client?
  
I'm all for educating businesses. I'm all for educating developers. If
you really want to get out there and make a difference, organise Web
Standards Group meetings in your home city. Give presentations to user
groups. Give talks to interest groups. Show everyone your passion.
  
  
-Ben


Ben you have missed my point entirely. My reason for this post is not
for selling my business. My reason for posting was that in many threads
on this NG from the time I started people have been talking about
bringing web standards to a wider acceptance level in the developer
community. My post at the top of this thread was to solicit comments
and suggestions that could be the basis for communicating the
compelling business case for small business to actually want web
standards. My thought is to begin to develop such an awareness of this
business case for web standards for small business that web standards
becomes the standard based on demand and not a push from the developer
community. I believe that there is only so much the web standards
community can do to convert the rest of the development community until
a critical mass of business make a requirement of it. They will never
do this unless there is a real case for it. My reason for a small
business case is the percentage of small business that comprise the
economy is so great that to convince or make the case the though
leaders in that community will have greater impact than us just adding
one or two developers to the WSG. And as for starting a WSG in my
community? I live in a rural community so this is my WSG. 

I am moving past "selling:" web standards to my client my goal is that
web standards based development become a sweeping standard in the
industry and the only way to achieve that is if business concludes it
is a bad business decision to do anything other and demand it of all
developers whom they engage.

All the best,

Jay






Re: [WSG] IE7 hacks

2006-02-03 Thread Jay Gilmore




Ted, 
Thanks for the post. Do we even know if the Beta 2 css rendering engine
is done though? Does it make sense to be considering hacks yet? I have
layout issues with current sites due to hacks for 6 and I will
definitely wait before I change them as I don't think that the
rendering development and bug fixes is done -- hence the beta release.

All the best,

Jay


Jay Gilmore

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B)Jay Gilmore's SmashingRed
Blog
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Ted Drake wrote:

  Hi everyone
I posted a hack to IE7 today. I know I'm not the first one to find this, but
thought I'd throw it out there for all to love on.

www.tdrake.net 

It's pretty simple. But please, think beyond hacks.


Ted Drake
www.tdrake.net


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[WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

2006-02-02 Thread Jay Gilmore




Hi WSG'rs, 

I want to put the call out for submissions for a business case for
web standards for small business. I have reviewed a number of
articles (referenced below) to find some compelling argument for web
standards that could be communicated to the small business community. 

Currently several arguments for web standards include the following as
the main focus:

*Faster development time (unless the competition uses software that
creates tag soup and can synchronize site wide libraries and SSI's)
*Better cross browser compatibility (small business view this as how
the site looks, pixel-perfect, identical)
*Easier maintenance (can;t use the software they bought to maintain the
site: easier to make a case for a CMS)
*lighter bandwidth usage (this matters little to the short-view small
business owner looking and cash flow for the quarter on their site that
gets 1000 impressions per month)

My problem with such arguments is that they don't scale to small
business well. Most small business look at a website as an end in
itself and not a means to an end which it should be. 

Small business wants it done fast and to look as they imagine it to and
not to suck from a user perspective. 

Small business usually doesn't consider maintenance as a deciding
factor as they look at price, technology, and style before they
consider whether anyone will have to maintain it. And the big one that
cannot scale is bandwidth and that is because small business doesn't
care about bandwidth -- they just care if their page is up and works.
They can't see that if they have compound growth that they will suffer
at the hand of error messages, and up charges on their hosting. And why
should they? They are trying to run a business, many as CEO and CTO and
VP Marketing and everything else (like me). They cannot consider
anything else but the results that effect business process, cash flow
or sales. 

So here is the question: 

What are the benefits of web standards for small business that can be
sufficiently measured in results for the business both in the long and
short term?

and a second question is 

How do we, as a group start to bring the message to the masses?

Articles reviewed in the process of thinking about this subject:
http://www.molly.com/2005/11/14/web-standards-and-the-new-professionalism/
http://www.websitegoodies.com/article/38
http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000266.php
http://webstandards.org/learn/reference/web_standards_for_business.html
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/The_Business_Benefits_of_Web_Standards

After I wrote the above post I did find the following article useful.It
answers some of the questions I pose but again it is speaking the wrong
language to the wrong crowd for me:
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/

I am looking for a way to make small business owners see that they have
now sane alternative but to use web standards, not tell them they will
be ahead of the curve or save $100/year on hosting.

All the best,

Jay
-- 

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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

2006-02-02 Thread Jay Gilmore




Christian, 

I wholeheartedly agree with you points but I want to go beyond the
argument of separation of information and presentation markup. 

I am talking about coding using the whole of standards based documents.
That portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage
of semantics, logical content markup (SEO is a good argument here).
Maybe I am making too much of it and trying to over theorize the issue.

Jay


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Christian Montoya wrote:

  On 2/2/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
 I am looking for a way to make small business owners see that they have now
sane alternative but to use web standards, not tell them they will be ahead
of the curve or save $100/year on hosting.

  
  
I'll think of more arguments later, but I can definitely say:

- CSS and seperation of presentation from content makes updating a
site easier, whether it uses a CMS or not. Tag soup CMS solutions are
usually expensive, whereas a typical CSS based site can be built on
top of a free CMS. More importantly, when the site does not run on a
CMS, it really helps to have clean, semantic code without
presentational markup. I know it's a pain for small businesses to pay
someone to update their website all the time (they usually can't
afford to do it in-house), and even if they still pay someone to
update their CSS based site, at least the updates take less time.

- Also, CSS makes it easy to have the site redesigned in the future,
should it ever be necessary, and if someone gives me a CSS site to
redesign, they'll definitely save a lot of money, considering how few
changes I would probably have to make to the markup.

Pretty much any argument that emphasizes lower maintenance cost is key
for small businesses. SEO is a plus.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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[WSG] IE7 Now what?

2006-02-01 Thread Jay Gilmore




I have downloaded IE7 Beta 2 and I have looked at a couple of my sites.
I have found some problems (never mind how slow the programs is). I use
some * html hacks and some display: inline block tricks to emulate
tables in IE's 6 and lower. Are there resources for ways to fix these
hacks that are backward compatible or is the only way the method
suggested by IE team which is to use conditional comments in the *head*
and use a separate stylesheet?
Jay
-- 

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Re: Re: [WSG] IE7 Now what?

2006-02-01 Thread Jay Gilmore




Thanks, but I fail to see what this has to do with the Beta 2 version.
The Beta 2 version is installed on top of IE 6 and acts as it should
so far. I am assuming that they have fixed any issues with Beta 1
before releasing a public beta. I have uninstalled it and all works
fine in IE6 but what I want to make sure is that I can fix issues with
my previous designs so that they don't remain broken in IE7 when it is
in GA release.

I will restate my question to be more clear:

Are there any resources, index, tables or references on specific
differences between IE7 box model and other browsers that will enable
me to check and correct for layout issues that will exist on designs in
IE 7?

I don't want to have to try tweaking every single line of my
stylesheets to GUESS if I have fixed it (as we all know, just because
it LOOKS right in the browser doesn't mean that it IS right). There are
two places I have found issues. One relates to display:table-cell and
display: table. In addition I have some odd margins/padding issues with
one site that doesn't exist in other sites with similar layout.

All the best,

Jay


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Miles Davies wrote:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/19/ie7beta_patch_glitch/
  
You should think twice before installing any Microsoft Better products.
  
  
  
  On 01/02/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
I have downloaded IE7 Beta 2 and I have looked at a couple of my sites.
I have found some problems (never mind how slow the programs is). I use
some * html hacks and some display: inline block tricks to emulate
tables in IE's 6 and lower. Are there resources for ways to fix these
hacks that are backward compatible or is the only way the method
suggested by IE team which is to use conditional comments in the *head*
and use a separate stylesheet?
Jay

-- 
Jay Gilmore

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Re: [WSG] Re: Moral High-horse

2006-02-01 Thread Jay Gilmore





Paolo Dodet wrote:

  
  
Lachlan wrote: 
  
  
  The
problem is that many people see the issue as "what will happen if I
don't follow standards?"; whereas the questions they should be asking

are "what are the benefits of following standards?", "how much
easier/faster is it to develop with standards?", etc.

  
  
  

This statement is very true
If
the whole matter were addressed this way, IMHO we would have two major
benefits:
  
1. Clear understanding of our role within the society as a whole and
the www community as part of that whole.

I don't know how this is true as we can only really know our role
within a small portion of the www community within society.

There are way too many subcultures in the development and design
community. There are the DW users and the former graphic designers who
are all over WYSIWYG editing and the tag soup makers and the perpetual
transitionals (Doctypes) and the M$Word doc converters, FrontPage
zealots, template selling shills, and more. Then there are the people
who are just unplugged from any community and develop in a bubble at
home on whatever software they were told to buy at school. 

So that being said we don't have a clear role unless we are to be self
proclaimed pundits. Some more puntidtious (word?) than others. 
2.
Easyness in communicating this concept to others (clients and/or
other webdesigners), since they will be clear to us in the first place.

True(ish). But why do we have to continue to set ourselves on a course
for a long up hill climb to never know where the peak is. I have felt
for a while that the WSG and WASP need to have a clear public relations
and communications strategy. If we, as the standards oriented, can
agree on certain principles that can be easily made into a total cost
accounting for the case for web standards to business and clients and
get ourselves out of the proverbial lab with the technology then we can
get on with innovating and the day to day business of web development. 

I consider myself as a serious student of standards based development
and this ng has been a tremendous help to it but we need to stop
preaching constantly to the converted and go out there and like Seth
Godin and Guy Kawasaki get ourselves some standards evangelists.
Clients who have implemented sites on standards and saved money,
development time, upgrade headaches, forward compatibility etc. 

While I am a developer, I am still a businessperson who understands
that the little details should never stand in the way of making a
decision and to deliver a good product now --perfect it later. Cash
flow and operation is most important to business. 

Some of the members of this group are students, interested hobbyists or
just plain code freaks -- learn lots, make great websites. But for us
website developers building a business around web standards
development, I want to get past the point of critical mass for the
knowledge and acceptance of web standards in the business community so
that when I talk about it to clients they don't glaze over and even so
they are asking for it. 

BTW this is the best ng I have ever been in -- even if people do think
they see high-horses. And if you think things are at all nasty here
(which they are not), I used to subscribe to the Slackware ng, and when
Patrick V.(Slack's Developer and owner) got some mystery illness and
people though he was going to die, there were flame wars and personal
attacks like no other. 




Re: [WSG] IE7 Now what?

2006-02-01 Thread Jay Gilmore



Todd Baker wrote:


Thats a big call Ted.

Ill be happy to see that back of IE6 as much as anyone but I think it
will be well into next year before IE7 overtakes IE6, even if they do
roll it into XP SP3.

Your right tho... We need to start planning for it.

On 02/02/06, Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


I will
put my neck out on a limb right now and say that the majority of your
traffic by the end of October will have the ability to use :hover pseudo
classes, first-child, alpha-transparency png graphics, attribute selectors,
etc.

I am just trying to plan ahead. I don't want to be building sites that 
have issues that I have to go back and fix when the GA release comes 
out. I have three sites with issues and want to correct them but also 
fear that it is to early to rely on the rendering in the current beta 2. 
I just don't want to be stuck with 10 projects on the go only to find 
that NOW I have to address these issues.


-Jay
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Re: [WSG] Background-Image download order

2006-02-01 Thread Jay Gilmore






NickGleitzman wrote:

On 2 Feb 2006, at 1:24 PM, Ric Raftis wrote:
  
  
  Nick Gleitzman wrote:


Boring, but multiple CSS files, one for
each page, containing only the bg image declarations for that page.
  
  

Maybe I've missed something, but why wouldn't you just have the one css
file but declare the background image in the head section of each
individual page?

  
  
You could, of course, but I use external files for the same reason that
I don't include the whole CSS file in the head - separation of
of content and presentation.
  
  

What about SSI or PHP. I have used this for conditional class
application in navigations I don't see why you couldn't use it for
applying to stylesheet insertion. For navigation where I use image
replacement I use a single image and use the background image
positioning to handle the various states. This way the whole nav loads
at the same time and there is no need for _javascript_ preloads. 

This makes me think that I should put all my background images on one
image for an entire site. That might be a cool experiment. Has any one
tried this?

Jay



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Re: [WSG] Web Standards Shetland Ponies

2006-02-01 Thread Jay Gilmore




heretic wrote:

  
I wanted to understand why this happened. Is standards only really
something a small contingent of geeky developers go for?

  
  
I think it's fair to say that standards developers are still the
minority, but that doesn't make them wrong. "What's right is not
always popular, what's popular is not always right."
  

How very true.

  
Probably mostly done by larger design firms, which tend to be using
older techniques. When your profit margins are up, it's easier to get
comfortable I think.

Also, most clients still aren't aware of
standards/accessibility/usability; they're still judging sites on how
they look and what the first few users say.
  

As I said earlier in the high horse thread, we (standards oriented
developers) have not yet provided adequate answers for business to
take to their buddies and say " We just built our website around
standards and it was the best thing we ever did!" 

  Yes, that's true. What really sets off the standards crowd is when the
reasons are really bad, and/or people are hostile to standards. The
trap is expecting and assuming the worst of reasons, I guess :)
  

I don't know if this is true or not. What I do know is that business
doesn't care about standards because no one from THEIR group of peers
have told them to. If you had some of the biggest names in marketing
and business saying you should build around standards for such and such
a result to the overall competitiveness of the company, then you would
have standards all over. 

What I have said and will continue to say is that it is not our jobs as
a community to sell standards to our clients -- we can do it on a
one-on-one basis -- as a community we need to sell standards to the
people business looks to for answers -- Marketing Gurus, Accountants,
Consulting firms, Business Reporters and Pundits. 

Business owners rarely want to be first adopters unless they are true
entrepreneurs and don't care if they flounder on their way to the top.
Most business owners make decisions because it is the accepted thing to
do, the cheapest thing to do or the thing to do because they look or
seem better as a person or a company. When you have people like Vincent
Flanders and Jakob Nielsen talking about usability to fortune 500
companies and to web design conferences etc. they both acknowledge the
bottom line and the sacrificial choices companies must make to ensure
viability and usefulness you don't hear them talking about whether or
not the site used a clearing div at the bottom of their site or a hack
in their CSS. 

The only way that we will ever gain wide acceptance (I sound like some
sort of human rights activist) is to make business demand it because
they will not be competitive without standards based design. 

Jay


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Re: [WSG] 2 Q: New web site, which DTD I should use? and Compresion

2006-01-31 Thread Jay Gilmore




So even if a site is written fully XHTML 1.0 Strict
compliant, and validates as such, it is still
recommended to use HTML 4.01 Strict?

Francesco



Francesco, 

Many list members here are going to suggest that you use HTML 4.01
instead as technically what the user agents (browsers in this case)
receive is not XHTML as the Recommendation indicates which is as XML.
What the browsers almost always receive is text/html. I used to
question this whole thing and then I thought to myself there is no real
point to use the XHTML anyway since it isn't served as the W3C
recommends. 

Many developers are moved to use XHTML because others have or because
it was newer than 4.01. That doesn't mean they were right in either
case. Coding in 4.01 Strict is little different from XHTML except for
the XML tag closure requirement and not using XHTML 1.0 strict served
as html/text goes against the way it was intended to be served. 

Unfortunately there is much heated debate here often about this as the
W3C's recommendations are so easy to interpret with slightly different
outcomes for many people. 

All I would do is try to think about why you chose XHTML for your
document. Is it because it is the correct doctype to use, the newer
doctype or the popular doctype. 

I have gone to 4.01 Strict from XHTML 1.0 because I realised I was
following the pack because it was the new, cool doctype, used by people
I admire and look up to. Just because they are using it doesn't make it
right.

All the best,


Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real
Small Business.
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Re: Moral High-horse - was Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media

2006-01-31 Thread Jay Gilmore




russ - maxdesign wrote:

*snip

Completely agree. The most common off-list comments I receive are along the
lines of "a great list, very helpful, but sometimes a bit of attitude".

*snip


Part of the reason I stopped reading the list was that I was getting so many threads filled with near religious extremism regarding this recommendation or that method. It got to the point where I went to digest mode and then stopped reading it even though I feel that it was one of the most useful groups I have ever been involved in. I have come back because I am hungry for discussion on web standards.

Thanks to Russ,

Jay





Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real
Small Business.
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]








Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.

2005-12-22 Thread Jay Gilmore






Rimantas Liubertas wrote:

  2005/12/22, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
...
  
  
 Still looking for a valid replacement to the IE CSS, display: inline-block;
thing...

  
  
What am I missing? display: inline-block is perfectly valid in CSS2.1
Is your problem that CSS validator defaults to CSS2 profile?
You can change that selecting CSS2.1 for "Profile" in [2].
Sorry, if I misunderstood your statement.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#propdef-display
[2] http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-uri

Regards,
Rimantas

Many thanks! It is always a pleasure being given a polite
boot-in-the-a$$. I guess I'll be reading the 2.1 spec over the holiday.


2nd best thing I learned from this group -- inline-block is valid --
and -- I can change the default settings in Pederick's Toolbar.

All the best,

Jay




[WSG] Site Check Please (Clattco)

2005-12-22 Thread Jay Gilmore

Hello All,

I would like to know if I have made any huge gaffes with this site 
(http://www.smashingred.com/clientspace/clattco/). Nearly complete and 
just requires copywriting completion.


Specifically the following are of interest:

Rendering on mac in Safari and IE,
Usability,
Mistakes I may have made out of ignorance,
Issues of semantics etc, and
Accessibility (not required by client but I want to get better at this).

All opinions are welcome. If there are mistakes out of ignorance please 
point me to a reference for correction.


Sincerely,

Jay Gilmore
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Re: [WSG] Site Check Please (Clattco)

2005-12-22 Thread Jay Gilmore



Kenny Graham (thoughtfully) wrote:

With larger text sizes, your sidebar headings become white on white. 
I'd suggest vertically expanding that background image, or setting a

similar background color along with the image.  That and a few things
like empty paragraph elements and stray /div on some of the pages.
 

Thanks for that. I will be shortening the title for the See What Our 
Clients Are Saying heading but increasing the size of the background 
image is a great idea as well. Thanks. I know that there are some empty 
p /p  elements as I am still placing copy. Just wanted to ask for 
opinions and suggestions at this stage.


Thanks for the help and all the best,

Jay
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Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes

2005-12-21 Thread Jay Gilmore



Felix Miata wrote:
snip


In fact, most must have done
at least some personalization, since most hit statistics that say the most
common screen resolution is 1024x768 even though old versions of doze
default to 640x480 and newer to 800x600, and signicant numbers are above
the median.
 

It might appear that way but for many home and small biz users they are 
getting systems from major PC co's and these systems come with 
preconfigured OS's with a default resolution higher than 800X600 usually 
if the bottom system is shipping with a 17 monitor Dell, Gateway, HP 
and Compaq ship with resolutions optimized for the 17 monitor. In 
addition more and more LCD's are being installed everywhere. The native 
resolutions for 17 LCD is usually 1024X768 or greater and it either 
changes the Windows display settings on install or suggests that in 
order to make it work the setting be changed.


I also know that the stats for my site are skewed because the visitors 
are high web users using Firefox and probably know how to adjust for 
them. Visually impaired users who have their systems configured probably 
know how to increase the font sizes. Users like my parents and my 
in-laws probably don't even know that you can change font sizes. That 
being said it use a larger font size for my sites and client sites when 
I can.


All the best,

Jay
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Re: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow

2005-12-21 Thread Jay Gilmore





Barrie North wrote:

  
  
  
  
  
  
  Hi all,
  
  I have a fluid layout and
for the life of me cant get
the image to be cropped as the screen adjusts.
  
  Here is the link:
  
  http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/
  
  If you resize the window
the image will stay on top. I have
played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I cant for the life of me get
this
to work.
  
  Anyone fancy jumping in
and pointing out the obvious thing I
am missing J ?
  
  Barrie North
  

Personally, I would make the image the background of the header div. It
doesn't add anything but aesthetics and isn't required for a person to
understand the page or the content. 

All the best,

Jay




Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.

2005-12-21 Thread Jay Gilmore




Semantics in mark-up.
Minimize Div's and Span use.

Still looking for a valid replacement to the IE CSS, display:
inline-block; thing...

All the best,

Jay

Paul Noone wrote:

  It's a God-send. If only it had been properly explained sooner.

Fortunately my recent conversion to virtually tableless websites means I
do't have many changes to make. :)

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 9:56 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.

Hi Terrence,

  
  
The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the 
table, not to summarise it's content.

  
  
Thanks for sharing that with us. Can you please let me know the source of
this info? Anybody else have an opinion on this?

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com


 Original Message 
From: Terrence Wood
Date: 12/21/2005 4:22 PM
  
  
The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is:

How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users:

The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the 
table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better 
according to actual screen reader user testing.

How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen 
reader users to test with?

You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw 
the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person 
draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right 
track =)

Example from complex financial table:
summary="There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and 
labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 
2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, 
column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual 
Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 
6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative 
on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation

  
  type."
  
  
(yep.. "rowgroup" is jargon, but most people got it... you could say 
"group of rows")

HTH, please share your discovery in 2005.

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] Site Critic

2005-12-16 Thread Jay Gilmore




This is a standards group and as such I think it would be best if you
checked your sites in a browser that was more standards compliant than
IE6 both of these layouts break in Firefox 1.5. On top of it all this
is a tables based layout that doesn't even work cross browser. There is
nothing in this layout that couldn't be accomplished using Cascading
Style Sheets. Your page doesn't validate according to doctype HTML 4.01
and you have all sorts of deprecated tag usage such as font.

Honestly, you are making a bold move by posting these sites to this
group. 
All the best,

Jay

Boteler, Cheree wrote:

  
  
  Hi
everyone:
  
  I
was wondering if any of you would be willing to look at my new sites
and critic them. Any comments would be great!
  
  Thanks!
  
  http://econdev.sierrapacific.com
  
  http://econdev.nevadapower.com
  
  
  
  Cheree
Boteler
  Web Marketing Consultant
  Economic Development
  Sierra Pacific PowerCompany
  6100 Neil Road
  Reno, NV 89501
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  (775) 834.3755
  Fax: (775) 834.3384
  





Re: [WSG] Site Check please

2005-12-12 Thread Jay Gilmore




Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
Guys and Gals, 

I have just switched my site to a fluid layout vs. the old 750 pixels
wide approach. I have also changed all my font sizes to em's to adjust
as needed. 

Can people in mac and linux take a glance to make sure all is well for
me? 

Thanks, 

Joe Taylor 
http://sitesbyjoe.com


Joe, The site "looks" ok but I have a few of comments:

  Why are you using a transitional doctype? What elements or
deprecated attributes are you using that require this?
  Why are you using "pnbsp/p for spacing?
There are ways to create white space etc. without using unsemantic
markup? How about adding the padding or margin to a class relating to
the content that requires the extra space before or after.
  Why are you using spans to achieve what could and probably should
be accomplished using an h1, h2, or h3 element?
Specifically, you are using a span to style the larger text of the
article titles. You are also using spans for the article date where you
could use the classes on paragraphs. 
  

All the best,

Jay

BTW: My own site is not perfect so go ahead and rip it apart. When I
finish my next few projects I will be revamping it.


Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real
Small Business.
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]






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Re: [WSG] Site Check please

2005-12-12 Thread Jay Gilmore




kvnmcwebn wrote:

  pretty cool jay,
what about the top links bottom border disapearing on the hover though?
-kvnmcwebn 
  

kvnmcwebn,

Are you talking about my site: http://www.smashingred.com or Joe's
site: http://www.sitesbyjoe.com ?

All the best,

Jay
Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real
Small Business.
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-06 Thread Jay Gilmore




I thought of a number of points relating to this standards issue...

The icons by w3c and others are meaningless and are a problem. They
need to have meaning to the reader. The average web visitor doesn't
even know that the W3C exists, let alone that they make recommendations
or determine structure and validity. When I first moved into the realm
of writing better code (still honing skills) I didn't know what they
were.In order to create meaning it has to represent actual value, ROI
or benefit to users and buyers of our services. 

We, as developers need
to be talking, not to the individual business owner but to business
leaders in each segment and show them, not tell them how this will
benefit them. 

I belong to several business forums and nowhere are you
going to see a discussion of web standards and accessibility as most of
these people don't know what that don't know. They all feel that how a
site looks determines quality. 

Like it or not -- the only measure of the success of a website is
the return on investment or an increase in profits or some other
metric. If a business can achieve that with tag soup they are going to
be happy. But most small business owners don't even consider this
point. They just want a website, so they hire a firm that has websites
they like to look at or that look good. 

We as an industry need to band together and make standards mean
something that business owners can't live without. No FUD just a
commitment by a segment of our industry that support web standards and
that promotes the benefit to business consistently and continually. We
need to stop preaching to the choir and build broad awareness that
business is getting short changed but "design" firms who do website
design are playing jack of all trades (although I would argue that web
firms cannot be mutually exclusive to marketing). We need to create an
environment that will make decision makers say to themselves, "Where
can I get me a standards-based, accessible site?"

This whole argument of licensing and regulation is ridiculous because
like most regulations there will be segments of the industry that lobby
to keep eligibility for the standards to an absolute low or argue that
this standard is designed to be protectionist. Why don't we make it
that the tag soup chefs have no choice but get on board by creating
client demand for clean efficient code.

Strictly on the topic of this thread, one point I make to clients is
that the code will be easily edited by anyone in the future and will
require no special software to modify and therefore cost less to
maintain. I don't usually get into these discussions with clients
though because my local competitors can't even make good looking tag
soup -- so I win be default. That will eventually change.

All the best,
Jay


Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real
Small Business.
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
P) 902.529.0651
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Ric  Jude Raftis wrote:
You
are absolutely correct Andreas. Bit the same as an Australian Safety
Standard, or Certificate of Electrical Compliance and the myriad of
other bits of pieces of terminology and standards that we live with
every day. But if we don't educate the public, how will they ever
learn. The tag soup coders certainly won't tell them!
  
  
I certainly don't think it's about designers "stroking" their egos. If
it's compliant then tell the world, the visitors but MORE
importantly.tell the client! Make them proud to have the icon on
their site.
  
  
Regards,
  
  
Ric
  
  
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
  
  
  These icons with "AAA", "W3C", "HTML",
"XHTML" on it only confuse most

users. So often in usability tests I have heard users ask me: "What
does

this mean"? 
  
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-06 Thread Jay Gilmore





Robert O'Neill wrote:

  
  
  
  If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard
compliant company every time, wouldn't you ?

Well I dunno? I am in Canada and I am assuming this might be the same
as the Canadian Standards Association (CSA). In North America BS stands
for BullS#it. so your comment fails to communicate to me fully what you
mean. 

  
  The thing is though,if I click on the BS Standard logo it can't
prove to me that the company is actually compliant , however in our
industry, we as web designers can use our W3C logos to prove the point,
by linking them to the validators.

A better comparison is the Better Business Bureau. Most people (in
participating countries) know who the BBB is because the organization
lobbies the public and consumers to educate and inform consumers about
its members and its mission. It even hunts downs and goes after
business who use their logo without authorization or membership. 

   
  
  Some might find this argument slightly flaky as a BS Standard is
an acknowledgment of quality rather than validity. The problem we have
though is that until the consequences of legislation fully kick in (DDA
etc) weare still being allowed to regulate ourselvesand W3C
validation seems to be the only option available.
  
  So I'll continue to add W3C validation logos to my sites until
an official Govt. Standard is set. Considering the UK Government bases
most of its current web standards (eGIF, NHS Standards etc) on W3C
recommendations, I'll hopefully be in a decent position should that
ever happen.
  
  Rob O.

Rob, I don't think legislating how businesses decide to build websites
is of any value or has any place, as they don't have any impact on the
public at large, if a business wants to build a crap site, much like
hanging a sign that no one can understand, it is, and should be, their
right to make whatever they want. If governments wish to set out policy
for contractors building sites for and with the government then go for
it. 

I don't really have a problem with the W3C logos per se, except we
cannot expect them to have any impact on anyone other than the already
converted. If you are placing them there as some hope to convince a
business owner to switch to you because you comply with some unknown
standard --you are going to waste bytes and bandwidth. All I was
suggesting is that the industry create meaning in the buttons for
business by marketing standards to business and not to one another. 




Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Jay Gilmore




Do you really want those customers who want to maintain their pages in
Frontage only to load up your design with unoptimized images, tables
and tag sludge? You put this site in your portfolio and a prospect goes
to visit your butchered site. These clients are also the worst for
taking up too much time. I am focused on small business but I am not
desperate for work. I don't do crap jobs for crap clients. If I have a
challenging client it is someone who has engaged my services on my
terms. 

I don't push standards, I build ever better sites. When I do something
of note for my client I let them know. I don't know if you will ever be
able promote standards to small business. You will have better luck
with larger companies.

I think I may take some of the suggestions in this article and
formulate a case for standards adoption for publication on my site.

All the best,

Jay


Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real
Small Business.
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
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Bert Doorn wrote:
G'day
  
  
  Dollars and cents is the language that will
convince most, if not all,

sceptics.

  
  
The problem I face in that regard is that a lot of sales enquiries I
get are from people who want to maintain their own site, for next to
nothing.
  
  
They don't want to spend money on a content management system (which is
overkill anyway, if the updates are few and far between). Many think
they can maintain a site with Frontpage, which, after all, is
relatively cheap. I can't help them, unless I throw standards
compliance out the door.
  
  
As far as (server) bandwidth is concerned, it only matters for big
sites with a lot of traffic, or sites with a host that provides a
ridiculously low quota.
  
  
When it comes to search engines, can anyone prove that lean code is
better? Has anyone done research on this claim? Google is full of
tagsoup sites that are highly ranked.
  
  
I searched for "web design" in Google (pages from Australia only). The
top 3 (non sponsored) sites used tables for layout, none of them
validated and only one had a doctype. They all used some CSS but only
in addition to the tagsoup.
  
  
So where are the benefits?
  
  
Regards
  





Re: [WSG] 2-col question

2005-12-04 Thread Jay Gilmore






Samuel Richardson wrote:
body
  
div id="sidebar"/div
  
div id="content"/div
  
/body
  
  
#sidebar
  
{
  
float : right;
  
width : 190px;
  
}
  
  
#content
  
{
  
margin-right : 190px;
  
}
  
  
  
This is the exact design of my site http://www.smashignred.com except
the side bar is on the left. I wrap the content and the sidebar in a
pagewrapper and then do as above. The numbers are different though. I
have the sidebar width of 180px and the left margin of the content box
is 220px which gives me a simple space without having to ad padding.
  
  
  Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
  Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for
Real Small Business.
  SmashingRed Web  Marketing
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
ivanovitch wrote:
  Folks - you've helped out before, and I'm
asking again. Pardon if this

sounds all too simple, but I've yet to find a solution either in this

list's archives, or on the web.


I'm trying to create a fluid layout with two columns, but whilst the

left column is variable width, the right column (sidebar) is to be a

fixed width (190px). This is entirely because the right column

contains an image in every instance. But I want the left column to

take up the remainder of the space (viewport width - 190px).


Everything that I've seen or reviewed works fine if I wish to break

the columns by percentage, or pixel widths on both. And min-width

doesn't seem to work for IE.


Having divved up some non-table examples using the usual suspects, my

efforts result in my finding that when making the viewport window very

small (or when enlarging the text to huge sizes), the left column

slides under the righthand column.


Do I need to use double-divs to set a width for the troublesome right

column? The most frustrating part of this is using tables and cells,

this is a no-brainer.


I'd show you an example of where I'm at, but my test site is down at
the moment.

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Re: [WSG] Newcomers and Web Standards

2005-12-03 Thread Jay Gilmore


Lori Cole wrote:


I think I will start attending a local user group rather than using this
list as I think people behave differently face to face and maybe some women
will be there.  Thanks for those of you that have commented constructively
about IE and tidy.  I took an HTML II online course with HWG and they do not
even mention text editors exist and would have saved me a lot of time.  


I am just using Notepad now to write SCRICT code and rather than reaching
for a reference book to remember a small detail or rather than running it
through a validator, I thought a text editor might help. I can certainly
research text editors myself but thought my question would be interesting
for this list to address in terms of trying to stick to standards.  


Lori
 

Lori I would try to find an editor that can offer you some enhanced 
features for editing and managing code as well as to increase the speed 
with which you can develop code. I mentioned earlier on this list that I 
use HTML-Kit (http://www.chami.com/html-kit/). I also use NotePad++ 
(http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm) both of these programs 
offer line numbering and code colorization. These are the two most 
important features you can have over notepad. If you need to debug or 
are validating you need to know what line numbers you have. Other 
features that are a benefit are element folding/collapsing which 
Notepad++ has so if you are only wanting to look at parent elements and 
not their child elements it makes this easier. I suppose this would help 
lost in DOM scripting, though I am only learning about this.


The reason I use HTML-Kit is that it is highly customizable and that it 
allows for me to default to whatever DTD I want. In addition, there are 
hundreds of plug ins and addons. The other and the main reason I use it 
is that I can file manage from the application and it allows for local 
or FTP file editing.


There are all sorts of free text editors though and I would try as many 
of them as possible. They mostly all just be text editors but some 
people swear by them.


Hope this helps.

All the best,

Jay
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Re: [WSG] editor

2005-12-02 Thread Jay Gilmore






Artemis wrote:
Could
you pretty please elaborate on "rubbish"? I mean, I know what you're
saying, but I am curious as to
  
what code Frontpage and Dreamweaver puts out that is rubbish. I've seen
it said so many times, but no one
  
ever elaborates.
  
  
Many thanks,
  
Artemis
  
  

Artemis, 

I am not one of the web standards gurus here but FrontPage, Dreamweaver
(DW) and almost all other WYSIWYG editors by design cannot interpret
your visual design based decisions. They are unable to determine the
meaning of content and are only aimed at one end -- to achieve visually
what you design in layout/design view. They sacrifice clean, efficient
mark-up for the end result."If it looks good in preview mode it is
done" is the method or madness of these applications. 

When I first started really getting into web design I began with DW and
found that I liked what I saw but as I learned about cross-browser
compatibility, then download speeds and optimization, I found I was
spending so much time in the design view fixing stuff that I realized
there was a better way. On top of everything else you have to contend
with the weird and wild markup created by these programs. You either
ended up with nested table after nested table and images sliced up like
teriyaki steak or css inline styles like
style=".msp101{font-weight:bold}" or styles at the page top with no
discernable meaning other than the order in which it was created. 

Once you realize that you can create efficient clean meaningful code,
faster and then be able to edit files that you haven't touched for a
year without a special editor you will understand why Dreamweaver and
FrontPage(Microsoft doesn't use it-- that should tell you something)
are not desirable for editing good code. Dreamweaver can be configured
to edit in code view but it requires so much system resources to do it
--it nearly cripples my new laptop with PhotoShop CS2 running at the
same time. I personally use HTML-Kit (chami.com) and have used various
Linux and Win32 editors. The text editor of choice for me is Notepad++.


There are many editors out there find and try as many as you can,
choose the ones you like and find the efficiencies in them and start
writing great code faster and better than you ever could in a
WYSIWYG-BIS(But It's Poo[family friendly version]) editor.

All the best,

Jay



Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real
Small Business.
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]







Re: [WSG] FF1.5 and Web Dev. T/B

2005-11-30 Thread Jay Gilmore






Stephen Stagg wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Is it just me or does the
Disable Images
option on the Web Developers Toolbar not work with FF1.5?
  
  Stephen
  

Isn't working on mine either. Images disappear for 2 seconds and reload.



Jay Gilmore








[WSG] Wanted: standards, semantics and strict/valid Script Sources

2005-11-30 Thread Jay Gilmore




I wanted to know if there are resources like HotScripts etc. that
provide code that is standards oriented, semantic and use valid and/or
strict doctypes? I hate always having to hack the hell out of scripts
etc to remove tables and replace semantics etc. 

Jay
-- 

Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real
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Re: [WSG] FF1.5 and Web Dev. T/B

2005-11-30 Thread Jay Gilmore





Stephen
Stagg wrote:


Is it just me or does the Disable Images option on the Web 

Developers Toolbar not work with FF1.5?


Yes.
When I choose this option, it refreshes the page but all the images 
still seem to appear.
When I disabled images at first, it
didnt disable
them but Ive gone back to a number of sites and my images are
disabled. Now I
cant get them back on!
Bill Scheider

I ended up uninstalling FF1.5 and deleting my profile and reinstalling
all my extenstions. The only bad thing about this is that I neglected
to backup the stored passwords data and now I have to remember all my
passwords. Darn.

-Best,


Jay




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Re: [WSG] standards, semantics and strict/valid Script Sources

2005-11-30 Thread Jay Gilmore




I am honestly looking for resources. Any help in this would be great. 

Jay

Jay Gilmore wrote:

  
I wanted to know if there are resources like HotScripts etc. that
provide code that is standards oriented, semantic and use valid and/or
strict doctypes? I hate always having to hack the hell out of scripts
etc to remove tables and replace semantics etc. 
  
Jay
  -- 
  
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Developer/Consultant
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Re: [WSG] Call for Site Check

2005-11-29 Thread Jay Gilmore





Matt Harris wrote:
Just re-worked my photography site: www.focusontheclouds.com
and wanted
to get your opinions. I've strayed into new territory - opting
for a slightly-risky, dark background instead of sticking with a
classic white background. I'm interested to hear if you think it
works...
  

It looks very good. A couple of minor points:


  I find the graphic text on the slide rollovers a little hard to
read -- especially the light on the over state. This, I think might be
tough for people with lower contrast or smaller monitors.
  Is clicking on the cloud banner supposed to be an easter egg.
There is no indication or direction that it rotates (loads new) lot of
slides. I like it but you should tell people or at least give more than
a hint than the outside border color change on hover.

All the best,

Jay






Re: [WSG] Browser check Site crit please

2005-11-29 Thread Jay Gilmore






Richard Stephenson wrote:

  Hi everyone, I just joined this list and I have just plucked up
courage to ask you all to subject me to the humilitation that is my
first site check!

I have been working on my blog

http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk

Richard, 

Looks pretty good. 

Here are a couple minor comments:
A little dark -- not sure what sort of style / feeling you are going
for.
The contrast for the links at the bottom vs. the background is very
low. It is hard to read on my CRT @ 1024X768.
Why not make the links in the left column all the same width? You can
make the a elements block and apply a width to create the same
size. It the uneven grey backgrounds are a little distracting.


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Re: [WSG] firefox 1.5 is official

2005-11-29 Thread Jay Gilmore






Felix Miata wrote:

  
Does the Web Developer Extension run in it with your old profile without
fussing with it? I've been using both, but web dev only in 1.0.7 and
separate profiles for each.
  


Yes. I just installed 1.5 into the 1.07 folder and of the 20 extensions
I have installed only 3 didn't update or function.




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Re: [WSG] firefox 1.5 is official

2005-11-29 Thread Jay Gilmore




The one extension set that no longer works and I haven't found a
solution is the libraries for Spellbound. I am not sure where to find
the libraries. They are available at for Thunderbird. I really do use
it alot for blogging and forum posting.

-best.
Jay


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Re: [WSG] page break up

2005-11-27 Thread Jay Gilmore







Jay Gilmore
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Lori Cole wrote:

  Thanks Scott,

The correct order of those elements is doing the trick.  Yellow appears.  

I did change the CSS comments to be the CSS format but that has altered some
other page's format like the form entry windows and text alignment in the
client page.  The blue line still appears on the home page.  

Lori

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:20 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] page break up

Hi Lori

Your issue with the tabs can be quickly fixed by switching the order in your
css of the #menu a:visited and #menu a:hover, so the hover is 'above' the
visited declaration.

The page break up looks like a guillotine bug. Need to dig more to find the
cause for that!

Regards

Scott Swabey
Lafinboy Productions
www.lafinboy.com

Lori Cole wrote:
Subject: [WSG] page break up
Also, I was intending for the hover of the tabs to be yellow but that does
not happen.  Thank you for any help.  Lori

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The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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Re: [WSG] page break up

2005-11-27 Thread Jay Gilmore




Lori, 

I am going to suggest that you download Firefox or Mozilla to develop
with. You will find that IE is too forgiving and allows errors to fall
through the cracks by trying to render the page vs. not parsing invalid
code.It is better to learn to make it right and then tweak it for IE. 
I have a couple of things below:


  Your CSS doesn't actually validate. Please check it and correct
all errors.
  
  When styling your the a pseudo classes, hover, active,
visited. The way to ensure that the cascade works is through the "LoVe
HAte" a:link, a:visited, a:hover (a:focus), a:active. I read somewhere
that there was is a Star Wars reference that takes the focus into
consideration.
  Try not to use absolute measurements other than pixels as they
are rendered and or represented differently on different browsers and
platforms. Using cm and inches is fine for printing stylesheets but can
cause layout problems on screen.

All the best, 
Jay



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Lori Cole wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Hi-I am new to CSS and strict. The URL I am
having trouble with is http://members.cox.net/loricole.newhome.html.
The style sheet is at http://members.cox.net.loricole/newtext.css.
  As you use the navigations tabs and go back
to the home page, the blue
background breaks up the white index card. Refreshing the screen stops
it
unless you tab through and cursor back again. I have IE v6. Also, I
was
intending for the hover of the tabs to be yellow but that does not
happen. Thank
you for any help. Lori
  





Re: [WSG] page break up

2005-11-27 Thread Jay Gilmore






Christian Montoya wrote:

  Lord Vader's Former Handle, Anakin

link, visited, focus, hover, active

Always in that order!

Yeah -- that's it!

-Jay


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Re: [WSG] Casual Friday[Drop-Down Menus]

2005-11-25 Thread Jay Gilmore




I am with you on that. I don't feel that dropdowns are as user friendly
as they could be. I think people should be directed to the information
they are using by providing descriptive top level navigation,
contextual linking and logical 2nd level navigation within the context
of the related main subsection. Site maps and search utilities are also
a good way to ensure that people will get to the info or goal. 

Jay


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Chris Kennon wrote:
Hi,
  
  
I've adopted the philosophy, drop down menus are a surrogate for
detailed Information Architecture. Sub-navigation should be
introduced on internal pages to navigate sub-sections. Before passing
this along to clients as mantra, I thought seeking the advice of the
participants of the list advantageous.
  
  
Respectfully,
  
Chris
  
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
  
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Re: [WSG] Overlapping footer

2005-05-03 Thread Jay Gilmore




Stevio wrote:

  
How can I make sure the footer will stop exactly at the black 1px
border of
  
the #maincontent div which contains the sidebar and the main content?
  
  

Stevio, 

I looked at your CSS and all you have to do to make this work is to
change the following:

#footer {
 position: absolute;
 bottom: 0;
 padding: 0;
 margin: 0;
 background-color: #FF;
 width: 75%;
 clear: both;
 border: 0px solid green;
}

to

#footer {
 float: left;
 bottom: 0;
 padding: 0;
 margin: 0;
 background-color: #FF;
 width: 75%;
 clear: both;
 border: 0px solid green;
}
It seems to work fine. This way, even if you make the #sidebar or
#maincontent huge, the footer stays put.

Jay
-- 

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Re: [WSG] Overlapping footer

2005-05-03 Thread Jay Gilmore




Stevio wrote:

  
  
  Hi Jay,
  
  Thanks for that, but floating the
footer left instead of setting position to absolute, means that the
footer is not at the browser window, which is one of the requirements.
  
  Thanks,
  Stephen

I see what you mean. I think that you will have to either nest the
footer in another div or play with the margin/padding settings. Have
fun or torture I 've tried a few things on it myself and to no avail.
I'm too busy to figure it out now.

Jay