RE: [WSG] IE and the button element

2009-02-23 Thread John Horner
Thanks for all the discussion so far. It seems I'll have to re-code. I will 
definitely not be using Javascript. It seems entirely logical to me that there 
should be such a thing as a button, which can exist outside a form, which has 
an HREF attribute or can be wrapped in an anchor. But if there isn't, I guess I 
have to accept that. 



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RE: [WSG] IE and the button element

2009-02-23 Thread John Horner
Advantages of using buttons:

1) Button elements don't need styling, they take their styling from the
user's operating system, which they are, I assume, familiar and
comfortable with. I won't be reinventing the wheel.

2) Anchor elements don't have a built-in disabled mode, buttons do,
and again the styling comes directly from the OS and the user is
familiar with it.



-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Chris F.A. Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2009 9:56 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] IE and the button element

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, John Horner wrote:

 Thanks for all the discussion so far. It seems I'll have to re-code.
 I will definitely not be using Javascript. It seems entirely logical
 to me that there should be such a thing as a button, which can exist
 outside a form, which has an HREF attribute or can be wrapped in an
 anchor.

Why? All you need do is style the anchor element.

-- 
Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com
= Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: 
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)


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[WSG] IE and the button element

2009-02-22 Thread John Horner
I adopted the use of the button element in an application I'm working
on, used like this:

a href=foo.htmlbuttonfoo/button/a

one main reason I liked buttons is that they can be disabled with an
attribute, which was useful for things like keeping a next button
everywhere, so that the layout was consistent, but disabling it when
there was no next page to go to.

Also I could build up the right URLs (complex ones using query strings)
which populate the HREFs on the server side and have a click which just
followed that link rather than submitting a form, which would mean using
a number of hidden fields and branching based on the button name.

This is valid HTML, though it might be an unorthodox approach, and it
worked well until I tested the code in IE. In IE6 it just plain doesn't
work, the buttons don't respond to clicks. Unless they're set to
disabled in which case they *do* work.

Any ideas or workarounds? Or am I just going to have to re-code
everything?

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RE: [WSG] Re: Html markup suggestions

2009-02-10 Thread John Horner
OK, I'll bite, what makes you say that there are no suitable microformats? 
Where did you look?

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Porkandpaws
Sent: Wednesday, 11 February 2009 8:26 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Re: Html markup suggestions

Hi All
I am looking to mark up the following information relating to books

Book title
Author
Cover image
ISBN

I would like to do this in the most semantic rich way that potentially  
could be programatically extracted

There are no existing microformats suitable for this and I do not know  
of any drafts.



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RE: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia

2008-12-02 Thread John Horner
Just want to put in a plug for Radio National's coverage of this topic
so far:

The Media Report:
http://abc.net.au/rn/mediareport/stories/2008/2405376.htm

Australia Talks:
http://abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/stories/2008/2419136.htm

Disclosure, RN is where I work.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Michael MD
Sent: Monday, 1 December 2008 1:43 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia

 Don't ascribe to malice that which can be more easily explained by 
 mistake. I'll take ill-informed cock-up over conspiracy any day, as
I 
 don't believe Australian politicians have the nous to manage a grand 
 conspiracy.

yeah a mix of very noisy religious extremist lobby groups and
influential 
people with vested interests and politicians in portfolios they have
little 
understanding of  leading to ill-informed cock-ups seems much more
likely 
than any kind of centrally-planned conspiracy.




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RE: [WSG] URL length best practices

2008-11-04 Thread John Horner
Just a quick note that if you're going to shorten

  Do collaborative online groups need to be successful

to make a URL, it would be better, from the SEO viewpoint, to cut out
the common words, do, need, to etc. So, your URL would be

  collaborative-online-groups-successful.html

not

  do-collaborative-online-groups-need-to.html

the former one would get you better weighting with Google, etc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Todd Budnikas
Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 4:22 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] URL length best practices

Wondering if people have insights into the length of a url for an  
article, and whether or not it is recommended to complete the name of  
an article in the url. For instance:
http://egovau.blogspot.com/2008/10/do-collaborative-online-groups-need-t
o.html

The name of this article is Do collaborative online groups need to be  
successful. The url above strips out be-successful. This may be the  
part of Blogger, or the author, but I've seen it in other instances  
with different Content Management systems as well. I personally would  
have added the additional words. Thoughts?


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[WSG] Good HTML/CSS training in Sydney?

2008-07-01 Thread John Horner
I'd be interested in hearing recommendations for good standards-based
HTML and CSS training in the Sydney area.

I'm looking at MaxDesign's website, of course, but not seeing specific
dates for upcoming courses.

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RE: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-22 Thread John Horner
Just to point out something that hasn't been mentioned as far as I can
see -- of course, you can map file types to extensions on a webserver
however you like. You could set .JPG to serve as HTML if you wanted. The
original creators of Blogger, Pyra, used .pyra as their extension so I
have no idea which language they were using.

The problem comes when your users want to download the page for their
own purposes. Their computer is not going to know what to do with a
.pyra file.

So, people may have arrived at a policy of web pages having 8.3-style
names, just to make it easier for users to save files to their hard
disks, back in the early days of Windows. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Korny Sietsma
Sent: Saturday, 21 June 2008 5:20 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] html vs. html

It's completely irrelevant these days, but long file names, i.e.
anything with more than 8 characters in the name or 3 in the
extension, are implemented on FAT file systems via a messy hack.  The
'real' file name is the short name (i.e. Progra~1) and the rest of
the file name is stored in extra hidden directories, it's all very
messy and inefficient.

ISTR this came in with Windows 95, so if you want to use web servers
that run under MS-DOS, you might have a problem :)

- Korny (showing his age)

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Ian Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My memory is fading fast Joe, but as I recall our first windows based
web
 server (from Bob Denny's book) fixed the 8.3 limitation.

 We did continue creating .htm for a while after that but only out of
habit.

 I can't remember the exact date but I would quess that we have been
largely
 free from that limitation for well over  ten years.

 Regards

 Ian

 - Original Message -
 From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:43 AM
 Subject: Re: [WSG] html vs. html


 The question wasn't about keeping file extensions in URIs it was about
 what file extension the file should have, which I am sure you will
 agree is still required as the server needs to know if it is an html,
 php, css, js, etc file doesn't it.

 But I completely agree, my server can serve a file.php file from
 www.domain.com/file
  as long as don't stupidly name the file the same as a directory at
 the same level.

 I may be that _at one time_ the windows server needed a 8.3 filename
 convention but that went out the door ages ago didn't it?

 PS: the subject should really be htm vs html, no? or am I missing
 something?
 Joe

 On Jun 20, 2008, at 08:55, Martin Kliehm wrote:

 On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Patrick H. Lauke
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
Rob Enslin wrote:
   
 I recently started noticing that our CMS system
 generated .htm pages where
 previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the
 support staff
 and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file
 extensions (or
 rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard)
   
Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to
 actually point out
where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be...

  I'd have to agree; I'm inclined to believe that .htm is a
 carryover
  from when Microsoft(TM) products (ie DOS) only supported file
  extensions up to 3 characters in length.
 
  If there is a W3C statement, I'd love to see it.

 Oh, there is. The W3C advises to avoid file extensions in URLs to
 keep future compliant. Cool URIs don't change, you know. ;)

 http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI


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 ==
 Joe Ortenzi
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.typingthevoid.com



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-- 
Kornelis Sietsma korny at my surname dot com
kornys at gmail dot com on google chat -- kornys on skype
I've never seen a man eat so many chicken wings


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[WSG] Background-position in percentage

2008-06-03 Thread John Horner
I've just spent a bit of time looking at how background-position works
when expressed as a percentage:

  background-position: 90%;

and I'm wondering why it works the way it does.

Here's the best way I can describe the effect of (90%, x-axis)
positioning with percentages: to position the image such that the point
90% across the image is aligned with the point 90% across the element.

There's something rather counter-intuitive about that (it's even hard to
describe!), and I've tried to explain it in teaching people about CSS
and found that people are rather baffled by it.

Does anyone know why it was created that way, and/or can you tell me if
there's some very useful thing this rule allows you to do? That is, as
opposed to a simpler rule like image is offset that amount to the left
which is what I assumed when I first came across it.


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RE: [WSG] need some help

2008-04-10 Thread John Horner
Does the coder need to be in London? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi
Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2008 10:00 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] need some help

Hi All London Standardistas!

Hope this little job request is agreeable to the list.

I need some quick template creation help (paid) for 2-3 days next week  
possibly. Anyone got some time available?
You need to be a whizz at fully-compliant XHTML/CSS and modifying a  
basic template to several (6) different variations.
My deadline got squeezed and I need my OOP coders concentrating on the  
back-end and interface functionality.
==
Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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RE: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation

2008-02-11 Thread John Horner
 
A website I was working on, client wants client-side 
validation, something fancy, something Ajax. 

The whole point of AJAX is that it's *not* client-side. It's both. So
your client is a little confused if they said that.

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RE: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers

2008-01-13 Thread John Horner
can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect 
my web sites to behave the same on the Mac?

Behave? Yes. But...

I don't think anyone's made this point yet -- one key difference between
the platforms is the display of form elements.

Elements like buttons and select menus and checkboxes, etc., pretty much
belong to the operating system and the browser is only borrowing them.
If your design has an expectation that those elements can be finely
controlled, cross-platform, then you might get an unpleasant surprise. 

For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button
which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then
Mac users may not have a button which looks like that.

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RE: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.

2007-12-20 Thread John Horner
It's rather off-topic, but more to the point it's impossible, and your
main task at this point is to explain to your client why even trying to
do it is pointless and silly. If they can see the text, the text is on
their computer.

As Andrew said, either they want their information on the web or they
don't.

The well-known blogger Heather Dooce Armstrong tells a tale about a
client who wanted to do this once. She replied that yes, we could do
that and hey, while we're at it, we should also include some code in the
page to disable their printer!

The client thought that was a great idea.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Nick Roper
Sent: Friday, 21 December 2007 9:48 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.

Hi,

We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to 
prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page.

The page will comprise two main areas:

1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc.

2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will 
initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting 
text records in tabular format.

The requirement is that the the user should be able to view the 
resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other
applications.

Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or 
indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent

image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with 
CSS etc?

If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for 
more appropriate forums.

Many thanks in anticipation.

Regards,


-- 
Nick Roper
partner
logical elements



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RE: [WSG] BBC in Beta

2007-12-18 Thread John Horner
I don't know what's causing it, probably caching, but some of us in this
office now have a new, almost completely different version of the BBC
page, with no annoying colour changes, and some of us don't.

Shift-reload? Randomise the URL?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/beta/?noseriouslypleasereload might do it. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of John Faulds
Sent: Wednesday, 19 December 2007 9:12 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta

Yeah, that's right. I can still see them and they still change the
colour  
of the page.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:31:49 +1000, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Well they are on my computer! (we're talking about the 4 colored
buttons  
 that changed the colors of the page... right?)

 John Faulds skrev:
snip

 No they're not. Unless you're referring to something different.




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www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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RE: [WSG] RE: BBC in Beta

2007-12-18 Thread John Horner
- I really don't like the clock; it's so 1990s - we all have a clock on
our computer/phone; I don't think it's needed.

I think you're missing the nostalgia, the aah factor embodied in that
clock -- British people have spent many *many* hours watching it.



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RE: [WSG] introducing a prompt to download or open a pdf

2007-10-16 Thread John Horner
Maybe it's just me, but this:

--

$type = $_GET['type'];
$fileName = $_GET['filename'] . . . $type;

$mimeType = application/$type;
if (strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'], 'MSIE 5') or
strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'], 'Opera 7')) $mimeType =
'application/x-download';
   
header(content-disposition: attachment; filename =
\$fileName\);
header(content-type: {$mimeType});
   
readfile($fileName);

where the link would be download.php?filename=mypdftype=pdf

-- 

looks terribly insecure to me -- I'm allowed to put whatever I want into
the URL until I find something interesting? 

I think I'd start with 

download.php?filename=../htpasswdtype=



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[WSG] Why DON'T you-know-who just fix the site?

2007-10-07 Thread John Horner
Let's say there's a big store called, er, Tegrat.

They have complaints about their website not being accessible, which
have gone on for some time and are now the subject of legal action.

We, the people on this list, know that it's not technically difficult,
and shouldn't be time-consuming or expensive. 

Does anyone have any idea why don't they just ... fix the problem? 

 * Are they holding out some kind of right-wing, government shouldn't
interfere, ever, in anything philosophy?

 * Have they subcontracted the website to a third party with whom
they're on bad terms?

 * Have they got some kind of monster CMS which their current staff are
unable to make changes to?

 * Do they somehow believe, mistakenly, that it will cost millions?

No matter whether you *believe* legislation should force businesses to
fix the site, businesses normally like to appear well-meaning and
helpful and compliant with such issues and interest groups, because
they're so concerned with their public image. 

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RE: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread John Horner
There's one thing nobody has mentioned so far, which is Michelle Malkin
is what I personally would call an extreme right-winger. She's a regular
on Fox News, and she's been compared to Anne Coulter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Malkin

I find the idea that we'll drop her a polite, well-meaning email and
she'll come around to our way of thinking rather unlikely. Our efforts
would be better directed elsewhere.

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RE: [WSG] Accessible Open Source CMS

2007-09-13 Thread John Horner
Oh I see, I hadn't considered that the back end was being evaluated as
well as the output. My mistake. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Marghanita da Cruz
Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2007 3:04 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Open Source CMS

John Horner wrote:
 I don't mean to be difficult, but I'm always baffled by this question.
 
 A CMS, presumably, outputs the code you tell it to output. Whether it
 serves up accessible/valid is completely up to you.
 
 To put it another way, a CMS which won't allow you to output
 standards-based code is by definition not a CMS although of course we
 might really be asking about degrees of difficulty. 

 From another perspective, could someone relying on assistive technology

contribute webpages?

 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Web Dandy Design
 Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2007 7:14 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] Accessible Open Source CMS
 
 Hi,
 
 Can anyone advise on the most accessible, open-source CMS between
 Joomla,
 Drupal or Plone?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Elaine
 Web Designer
 http://www.webdandy.co.uk
 
 
 
 
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-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au
Phone: (+61)0414 869202


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RE: [WSG] Accessible Open Source CMS

2007-09-12 Thread John Horner
I don't mean to be difficult, but I'm always baffled by this question.

A CMS, presumably, outputs the code you tell it to output. Whether it
serves up accessible/valid is completely up to you.

To put it another way, a CMS which won't allow you to output
standards-based code is by definition not a CMS although of course we
might really be asking about degrees of difficulty. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Web Dandy Design
Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2007 7:14 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessible Open Source CMS

Hi,

Can anyone advise on the most accessible, open-source CMS between
Joomla,
Drupal or Plone?

Thanks,

Elaine
Web Designer
http://www.webdandy.co.uk




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[WSG] How many of us are public and how many private?

2007-09-11 Thread John Horner
I've noticed that a lot of articles about web design seem to assume that
the web developer/designer is working in the commercial sector, and
often it's assumed that we're freelance too.

As an example, we'll often see arguments on here based on the target
audience meaning e.g. that you're designing a website designed to sell
a product -- your product is nappies, therefore your audience is parents
with babies. Public websites often have a target audience of everyone.

Lots of web content gets made, as Richard Stallman said about software,
just because it needs to be made: shrink-wrapped, boxed commercial
software is the tip of the iceberg compared to all the apps and drivers
and utilities and tools in the world which are created without any
thought of profit, simply because they're needed.

So I wonder, how many people on this list are in the commercial sector
and how many are in the non-profit / public / government / education
sector?



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[WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread John Horner
I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name.
 
We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you
should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer.
 
I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following:
 
* HTML
* CSS
* Javascript
* XML
* Perl or PHP
* SQL
 
but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to
call themselves a web developer?
 
You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop
(non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a
programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?
 
However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we
call someone with all the skills above?
 

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RE: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread John Horner
 
 i wouldn't advertise the fact i can do 'ALL' the jobs on my own in the
same time it
 would take a team of developers. To much hard work, so little money. 

That's an interesting point in itself. Should you try to be a
one-stop-shop? It's certainly a lot easier for the client, but how
good can anyone's skills be if spread over five or six disciplines? I
speak as someone who discovered the double field in MySQL only last
week.

I'm also thinking a web developer needs to be competent in at least
one high-end graphics tool, probably Photoshop by default. When a
graphic designer passes you a PSD file with 47 layers in various groups,
each with layer styles and featuring fonts you don't have, you need to
be able to sort it out.

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RE: [WSG] ABC News Online have a new website

2007-06-18 Thread John Horner
I think the inclusion of the postcodes in the tags is a little clunky,
and not very intuitive.

I've had no direct involvement with the makeover, but I happen to know
the reasoning behind the postcodes. There are a number of different
towns and cities with the same name all over Australia.

Springfield for instance -- two in NSW, two in Victoria, two in
Queensland and one each in SA, WA and Tasmania.

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[WSG] While we're on the subject of validators...

2007-04-30 Thread John Horner
I recently came across two niggling CSS errors:

1)
body { background: url('image.gif')no-repeat top }

Here, the coder has left no whitespace after the URL in the shorthand
background declaration.

Firefox is OK with it, IE doesn't display the image.

2)
#right navbar {width:400px;}

Here the coder meant #right_navbar but missed the underscore. Obviously
it doesn't work.

The thing is, the W3 CSS validator passes them both. It even *fixes* the
missing space in the first example and displays it like this:

body {
  background : url('image.gif') no-repeat top;
}

The second case is a little more complex, because logically, anything
which isn't a class or an id should be an HTML tag. And there's no HTML
tag navbar. Yet. So that can't be valid CSS for any valid HTML
document.

Should I report this to someone?

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RE: [WSG] While we're on the subject of validators...

2007-04-30 Thread John Horner
 It's CSS validator. It doesn't validate cross-browser 
 compatability or the logic (or existence of) of HTML tags.

Well perhaps your second point is valid (and well formed) but this
example:

  body { background: url('image.gif')no-repeat top }

isn't just about cross-browser compatiblity. Surely without the
whitespace, it's actually invalid CSS? The same as it would be if
no-repeat and top appeared without space between?

And as for the logic of HTML tags, it would undeniably be a better
validator if it could warn tag-based declaration doesn't match any
known HTML element, the way Perl's error reporting warns me about
variables I've created but never used, on the basis that it's probably a
typo.

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RE: [WSG] What do we say if we don't say click?

2007-04-18 Thread John Horner
It's a nice idea, this know your market thing, and I'm sure it's
appropriate in a commercial context, but our market is *everyone*. 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot
 Sent: Thursday, 19 April 2007 7:16 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] What do we say if we don't say click?
 
 On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:54:22 +1000, Raena Jackson Armitage wrote:
  Using something more direct, like View larger image or Send us a 
  message just flows better as written text.
 
 Exactly how to approach this depends on your audience.
 If your market is largely internet newbs, who aren't yet 
 cofident with 
 this mousey-thing they push around with their hand - gently walk them 
 through it with 'click here to view a larger image'
 If your market is seasoned web standards developers 'larger image' is 
 probably sufficient. ;)
 There is no one hard and fast rule - Know Thy Market!
 
 warmly
 Lea
 -- 
 Lea de Groot
 Elysian Systems
 Brisbane, Australia
 
 
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[WSG] What do we say if we don't say click?

2007-04-17 Thread John Horner
I'm looking at a design involving image thumbnails and the instruction
to click images for larger version -- I have the idea that saying
click is wrong, or rather the assumption that everyone is using a
mouse is wrong.

So, how would you word this instruction, or otherwise inform users that
a small image links to a larger one?

Images are linked to larger versions seems to passive-voice to me, and
I can't think of any generic term for using a link. 

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[WSG] There's no back button on this website...

2007-04-11 Thread John Horner
Interesting anecdote in the latest AlertBox, particularly in the light
of our recent users don't know what the back button is discussion...

 In testing an e-commerce site last month, for example, one user 
 complained: This  is missing a feature to go back to the previous 
 page.

 I found this apparent request for a Back button puzzling, since 
 the button was featured prominently in the browser and the person 
 had easily used it earlier in the test session. [...]

 It quickly became clear, however, that the user wasn't asking for a 
 duplicate Back button. Elaborating on the previous complaint, she 
 pointed to the place on the page where breadcrumbs typically appear
 and said she wanted the list of links to higher-level pages.

 In other words, the user wanted breadcrumbs. She'd seen them before, 
 but didn't know what they were called, so she asked for them using 
 words that -- if taken literally -- would have been easily 
 misinterpreted.

 This is a great example of the hard-won lesson of usability: don't 
 comply with user requests. Give more attention to what study 
 participants do than to what they say. 

Put another way, the injunction is don't comply *unthinkingly* with
user requests -- don't give them what they say they want, give them
what they *mean* they want...

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[WSG] New Yorker Redesign

2007-03-27 Thread John Horner
Speaking of redesigns, http://www.newyorker.com/ is looking very nice
these days. Not a table in sight.

It doesn't quite validate due to some (presumably back-end-error)
weirdness:

 misc:exposeBean var=platform bean=platform/

but other than that it looks like a good standards-based website.

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RE: [WSG] PopUp windows

2007-03-08 Thread John Horner
So, just to get this straight, the statistic claiming that 30% of web
users don't know what the Back button does comes from

 Characterizng Browsing Strategies in the World-Wide Web (1995).

Nineteen-ninety-FIVE? 

Are we seriously going to keep quoting that study, conducted presumably
in 1994 and using something like Netscape 1.0, in 2007?
 
 As to how people acquire a belief when the evidence of their own eyes
 contradict it, go and ask them, John. I suggest you leave 
 your skepticism at the door. Without being rude, you might learn 
 something about your own users.

I seem to have offended you and I apologise for that (I would argue that
skepticism is necessary for learning too!). Of course people believe
illogical things. But the proposition that people would believe
something about the way a computer works and keep trying to make it work
that way despite repeated failures still puzzles me greatly.

Perhaps I should have asked my question differently.

Where did eight people get the idea that the ESC key was the Back
button? Did you ask them? Had they used browsers before? Did they all
come from the same professional field or workplace? Were they in a
position to copy each other or talk to each other? And, when they hit
the ESC key and it didn't send them back, what happened? They hit it
harder, or repeatedly? Did you talk to them about this method of
navigation?

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RE: [WSG] PopUp windows

2007-03-07 Thread John Horner
Off-topic, in a way, but my heart sinks every time this question comes
up. 

Because it comes up a lot. 

I would guess that it's the most frequently asked, discussed and
argued-over question on this list. Do we have an FAQ?

 One of my favourite stats is that 30% of 
 browser activity involves using the Back 
 button AND that 30% of users have no idea
 what the Back button is or does.

Where does that statistic come from? Do you have a citation for that?

 I watched one user testing session last year 
 involving 14 people over 5 days. 10 people 
 seemed convinced that pressing Escape would 
 take them back one page. When told that the 
 Back button would do that for them, 8 of them
 kept trying to use the Escape key. 

Without being rude, I'm rather skeptical about this, or at least I think
we need to hear more detail. Who were these people? Had they ever used a
browser before? How did they acquire this belief, when the evidence of
their own eyes contradicted it?

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RE: [WSG] tabular data

2007-03-06 Thread John Horner
Perhaps a logical definition of tabular data is data whose meaning is
defined by its position in a set of rows and columns?

[only makes sense in monospaced font]

   | BEST ACTOR | BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR |
--- |
| 2007 | Forest Whitaker| Alan Arkin|
--- |
| 2006 | Philip Seymour Hoffman | George Clooney|
-

In order to answer the question who got Best Supporting Actor in 2006?
you have to use the table's rows and columns to locate the answer by its
coordinates, so to speak. 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Schwartz
 Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2007 9:37 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] tabular data
 
 Chris, Georg,
 
 Thanks for the information.
 
 Regarding the table used to construct the page and the cent 
 table not  
 being well constructed, etc.: those are reasons why I am redoing the  
 site.
 
 My only concern here was to have an example of what you guys 
 consider  
 a candidate for tabular data to use for making decisions in the  
 future as to what can be put in a table.
 
 Bob
 
 
  Bob Schwartz wrote:
  Is there a definition of what is considered tabular data 
 (or is it  
  in the eyes of the beholder)?
 
  Would this be acceptable for using a table:
 
  http://www.fifeweb.org/wp/org/org_jdg_sdt_lst.html
 
  This looks like a candidate for a table but my concern would be  
  that the table is not well constructed.
 
  There is no thead, tbody, summary, scope... and where the judges  
  are highlighted with an image there is no data. Rather, a class is  
  used to style the cell.
 
  Have you checked this against the spec for html tables on the W3C  
  site?
 
  Kind Regards
  -- 
  Chris Price
 
 
 
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RE: [WSG] Body tag background color changes

2005-07-19 Thread John Horner
For the record, I believe there's a bug in IE5 for Mac which will 
cause problems with the


body class=foo

method. I've certainly seen some strange background behaviour on a 
website where this method was used which only came up in IE5 Mac, but 
I haven't got time to test at the moment.


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Re: [WSG] Screenshot tool

2005-06-20 Thread John Horner

You've already got the answer, but I just wanted to note that:


all browser/platform combinations.


is a bit optimistic! All?

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Re: [WSG] CSS List Separator

2005-06-14 Thread John Horner
I need this ability to replicate government legislation and 
apparently it has to be an EXACT duplicate. As far as I can tell, 
this isn't in the spec. Has anyone found a solution? Some fancy CSS 
hack or DOM scripting that will get around this?


If that EXACT is truly non-negotiable, as in, it simply must be a 
colon where the legislation calls for a colon, or else your document 
has no legal standing, then I can't see how it's possible to achieve 
this and still have a semantic list. There's no code in either HTML 
or CSS capable of specifying the punctuation associated with list 
items.


Which leaves you with the options to render these documents in PDF, 
or to fake the list structure, as in, create code which reproduces 
what you want visibly, but without the underlying code being, 
semantically, a list. Neither is a very happy outcome, so I'd be 
happy to be proved wrong.


jh

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Re: [WSG] Submit a form with text links

2005-06-01 Thread John Horner

I'm going to chime in with why do you want to do this? too, I'm afraid.

Users don't expect a text link to submit a form, so doing this makes 
your form less usable, more confusing, IMHO.


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Re: [WSG] A way to skip a Flash-intro if Flash is not installed?

2005-05-31 Thread John Horner
Somewhat belatedly -- the Flash-detection JavaScript I recommend is 
the Moock FPI script, see 
http://www.moock.org/webdesign/flash/detection/moockfpi/ a lot of 
work has gone into it and it has a very detailed bug-fix history, 
which gives me confidence, although it doesn't seem to have been 
updated in a year or so.


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RE: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS

2005-05-31 Thread John Horner

  Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that

 have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some
 software, or way, that will export this inline css into a
 external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet.


Am not aware on any package that would do this for you, but it should be
quite easy to set up a Regular Expression routine to strip all style='foo'
content from a page.


I think the question related to style blocks in the HTML, not 
style= attributes. Surely the question is, are we sure the CSS is 
all the same for all those 300 files? If it is, it's trivial to do it 
with regular expression-type searching as you say. If not, it could 
be very tricky.


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Re: [WSG] Weird IE 5.0 method test

2005-04-24 Thread John Horner
  In a (ugly) javascript I try to test if window.location.replace
  exists, before I use it:
  if(window.location.replace) window.location.replace(href);
  else window.location.href = href;
I remember trying to do something like that a while ago and finding 
what you found. Functions are objects, so you should be able to test 
for the availability of a function that way, but you can't.

I ended up just doing something like this:
script type=text/javascript language=javascript1.1
// the replace() method used here
/script
script type=text/javascript language=javascript
// the window.location method used here
/script
which is ugly but makes sense.


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Re: [WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS

2005-04-20 Thread John Horner
There is a vital ingredient in web design which is never mentioned by guys
like this  : IMAGE.  There are many web sites which sell nothing but image
The Web Pages That Suck guy sort of covers that, further down the 
page. He says (in his section on Mystery Meat) that it's OK for 
certain sites:

music, band, movie, art, experimental, fashion -- sites where making 
an impression or being cool is mandatory. It's OK because nobody 
really cares about these sites and their purpose isn't really about 
making money.

so in a sense he agrees with you, which is not to say that I do. 
*Band* sites? Where I might want to find the latest gigs, buy a 
t-shirt or CD etc?

Everyone's had their chance to criticise the Mystical Belief thing 
already (tableless CSS by the way? There are no tables in my CSS, 
how about you?) but of course the key arguments are about speed: 
faster redesigns and updates, but also smaller pages for faster 
downloads.

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Re: [WSG] making beautiful uri's

2005-04-20 Thread John Horner
I came up with a very hacky solution for this kind of thing, for a 
server where I didn't have access to mod_rewrite or whatever.

Instead of
   website.com/cgi-bin/script.cgi?id=1
   website.com/cgi-bin/script.cgi?id=2
   website.com/cgi-bin/script.cgi?id=3
I created
   website.com/1/
   website.com/2/
   website.com/3/
where the /1/ folder contained index.shtml and index.shtml contained
  !--#include virtual=/cgi-bin/script.cgi?id=1--
and so on.
It's not a great solution for a site that needs updating all the 
time, but as a quick-and-dirty solution it worked very well.

One side effect of this that nobody's mentioned of course is that 
search engines don't know it's a dynamically-generated page and are 
therefore more likely to index it.

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[WSG] Unicode Chars don't render in bold?

2005-04-17 Thread John Horner
I'm working on this website for a charitable organisation:
 http://www.lienhoatemple.org.au/vi/index.html
and I don't know what it looks like to you, but in my browser 
(FireFox 1.0 Mac) the Vietnamese characters which should be bold or 
italic are coming out as plain.

It's only the Vietnamese characters it happens to, i.e. characters 
which are also found in French, like a-acute or e-circumflex, appear 
fine, it's only the ones with the special Vietnamese diacritics which 
don't display properly.

I'd be interested in any light anyone could shed on this...

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Re: [WSG] validation errors

2005-04-17 Thread John Horner
http://www.choice.com.au/defaultView.aspx?id=102314catId=100165
I'm getting these sorts of errors
Line 298, column 70: cannot generate system identifier for general entity
catId
You need to replace the  character in the URL with amp;. The 
short version of why this is a problem is in HTML,  followed by a 
string of characters is a character entity, like eacute; for an e 
with an accent. The validator thinks you've used an unknown entity.

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Re: [WSG] Unicode Chars don't render in bold?

2005-04-17 Thread John Horner
Thanks to everyone who's responded so far. This in particular from 
Philippe seems to have fixed the immediate problem:

For both FF and Safari, it might help if you specify 'Lucida Grande' 
as the first font-family (sans-serif). I'm not aware of any trick 
for sans-serif. And using shorthand (font: bold 1em/1.3 'lucida 
grande', verdana, sans-serif).
I think you meant I'm not aware of any trick for serif in the middle 
there?
Despite the fact that these problems exist, I think it's still better 
to use Unicode, that being the standard, rather than any hacky 
windows-vietnamese-encoding, hope-for-special-fonts solution. I'll 
sleep better at night this way*. But perhaps I should put a link 
somewhere along the lines of This site uses Unicode, if you're 
having problems...

[* Funny how Buddhism and web development go together, isn't it? 
Number 5 on the Eightfold Path is that one should earn one's living 
in a righteous way.]

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Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes

2005-04-14 Thread John Horner
script
var msg=Don't Look Now;
/script
a href=# onclick=alert(msg)Don't Look Now/abr /
Very smart Bruce. The other method's more compact, but that's some 
good lateral thinking.

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[WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes

2005-04-13 Thread John Horner
[Maybe a little off-topic but I thought you'd be likely to know]
I have page titles which sometimes require single quotes, i.e. Don't Look Now
The titles also need to appear in a javascript onClick function like this:
 a href=foo.htm onclick=myfunction('Don't Look Now')
as you can guess, that breaks the JavaScript because of the quote in Don't
so I escaped the quotes and now I have this:
 myfunction('Donapos;t Look Now')
but it still breaks in FireFox, and the JavaScript console comes up 
with an error which points to the apos; as if it were a quote:

 Error: missing ) after argument list
 myfunction('Don't Look Now')
 ^
anyone got an explanation? Am I missing something obvious? It's the 
same if I use #39; instead.

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Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes

2005-04-13 Thread John Horner
Following up on my own post, but I neglected to say, the apostrophe 
could be escaped, just for JavaScript purposes, like this:

 'Don\'t Look Now'
but this text is coming out of a CMS, and the same string needs to be 
used both on the page and in the JavaScript.

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Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes

2005-04-13 Thread John Horner
You have 3 options:
1. use rsquo; instead of apos;
2. call you function as myfunction('Don\'t Look Now')
3. myfunction(unescape('Don%27t Look Now'))
Thanks so much Dmitry, I've actually used a combination of the above.
 myfunction(escape('Donrsquo;t Look Now'))
and then unescaped it at the other end... I can stop scratching my head now!

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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

2005-04-12 Thread John Horner
John Horner schrieb:
Not stupid at all, but I checked that and no, it's all happening 
via HTTP from a  web server, no local paths involved.
If it's not too much trouble, could we see an URL? Ingo
It'd be no trouble at all, but it's all happening inside our network, 
so it's not possible. You'll just have to believe me, unless you're 
in Sydney right now and have half an hour free?

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Re: [WSG] Validation of CSS

2005-04-11 Thread John Horner
CSS doesn't have strict separation of versions. The validator should 
check only well-formness of it.
That's certainly not what the W3 validator does.
The example which prompted this is display:inline-block. If I 
validate a file with that in it, I get this:

Errors
* Line: 8 Context : .myclass
Invalid number : display inline-block is not a display value : inline-block
If I know how, I can
1) go back to the validator page
2) choose advanced options
3) choose CSS Version 3 from the TEN different options available
and it will tell me it's valid.
Note that one of the ten options is No special profile and that too 
tells me it's an error...

What prompted this question was me trying to spread that message that 
you should validate your code to a skeptic. I don't think I convinced 
them by telling them they should follow that set of steps...

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[WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

2005-04-11 Thread John Horner
A colleague is developing a table-free design, and has run up against 
the peekaboo bug in IE6. (If you don't know it, it's basically that 
text disappears in certain circumstances, see 
http://positioniseverything.net/explorer/peekaboo.html).

His problem is not diagnosing the bug or even fixing it, it's that 
it's not happening on *his* computer, so he has to keep asking for 
help from someone whose setup does have the bug.

I can verify that two Windows 2000 computers are involved, with 
exactly the same version of IE6, down to the tenth decimal place, and 
one always displays this bug and one never displays this bug.

Any ideas? Could it be CRT versus LCD monitors? The fact that one 
person is logged in as administrator and the other as a lowly user? 
Melbourne vs Sydney? Zodiac signs? We're scratching our heads...


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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

2005-04-11 Thread John Horner
How about trying the same resolution so the rendering is the same?
Didn't think of that. Good point.

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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

2005-04-11 Thread John Horner
Is ABC using a SOE in both Sydney and Melbourne?
Yes. Our default browser is this version of IE6.
Does the document he's working on locally refer to any stylesheets 
(that may contain hacks) with local paths (e.g. not 
network-accessible)? Sounds stupid, but simple things like that have 
caught many of us before!
Not stupid at all, but I checked that and no, it's all happening via 
HTTP from a  web server, no local paths involved.

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Re: [WSG] margin:auto not working on MAC

2005-04-07 Thread John Horner
Hi, Have a page that seems to be lining up fine everywhere I am 
checking ( Opera, Firefox, IE ), validates fine but is a little off 
on a MAC
I'm going to do this every time someone posts a generalised on a 
Mac question...

***Please tell us which browser you're referring to.***
It just doesn't make any sense to say on a Mac. There are hundreds 
of different browsers used on Apple computers, just as there are on 
PCs. It's like saying it doesn't work on a Compaq.

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[WSG] Validation of CSS

2005-04-07 Thread John Horner
I was recently talking to someone who'd validated their CSS and got 
an error for display:inline-block.

He was using the W3 validator, and it was telling him it was invalid, 
and it is of course, for CSS 1 and 2. If you used the advanced 
options and validated against the CSS 3 standard, it was fine.

Which led him to ask a very sensible question -- why isn't there some 
kind of identifier like the DOCTYPE for CSS?

Any thoughts?

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Re: [WSG] Really strange results

2005-04-05 Thread John Horner
the page:  http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.
Can I raise a quick issue -- I noticed when I went to that page and 
right-clicked on it... a JavaScript alert came up to say that the 
page was copyright, and, as far as I could tell, stopped me from 
doing view source via the context menu -- what's the reason for 
that?

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Re: [WSG] Lime Green Bug On Mac IE

2005-03-09 Thread John Horner
Thanks both Phillippe and Neerav for responding. Perhaps it was, as 
Phillippe suggests, my memory at fault, and the transparent/inherit 
problem I recalled was Netscape 4 not Mac IE5.

I'm still waiting for the guy (he's interstate) to confirm the 
browser and version, but it's almost certainly going to be IE5 Mac or 
NN4 Mac. The problem is with the print stylesheet rather than the 
screen one.

The problem can be observed, apparently, by using Print Preview on this page:
 http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200503/1318290.htm?brisbane
server-side geeks might be interested in that URL by the way, we've 
recently cooked up a kind of semi-dynamic publishing method to save 
multiple handling of the same story.

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Re: [WSG] is rgb(255,255,255) better than #ffffff or white?

2005-03-02 Thread John Horner
Does that mean that hex values or color names are not as good?  Why?
I think it's the color names that are being shunned here, isn't it? 
rgb(255,255,255) and #ff and #fff are all RGB colour specs, but 
white isn't.

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Re: [WSG] [ADMIN] Site review requests and new Brisbane organiser

2005-02-23 Thread John Horner
I use both PC and Mac. IE 6 on PC and IE 5 on Mac are different in 
the way they render identical pages.
That's what I said! Perhaps I didn't express it very well.
There is almost no similarity at all between Mac IE and Windows 
Explorer browsers, except maybe way *way* down there's a bit of old 
code from Mosaic or something.

They have the same name and number, but to all intents and purposes 
they are entirely different browsers, especially when it comes to 
scripting, the DOM, and CSS support.

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Re: [WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?

2005-02-22 Thread John Horner
div style=width:500px; height:500px; display:table-cell;
vertical-align:middle; text-align:center; border:1px solid
redcentered/div
The word centered is nicely centered (at least in FF).
Internet Explorer does not support table-cell, or table-row for
display, but this is not the fault of CSS.
You have a point, but that's CSS version *two*, isn't it?
What I want is the ability to align the content of a DIV, for 
instance, or any block element, vertically, and I'm asking why it 
wasn't included in CSS-1.

I can't think of any policy-type reason why it wasn't, that's all, 
and I don't see vertical alignment as being directly related to 
table-cell display either.


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[WSG] variations on @import syntax?

2005-02-22 Thread John Horner
I just noticed that on Zeldman's website his CSS is imported like this:
style type=text/css media=all@import /c/c04.css;/style
which I don't think I've ever seen before. I normally see
@import url(/c/c04.css)
is there some hack being invoked here, or is it just a matter of style?

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Re: [WSG] variations on @import syntax?

2005-02-22 Thread John Horner
browser filters chart:
http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/css_only/index.php
Very useful, thanks a lot Russ. I'm a bit disturbed to see that this 
particular syntax will Destroy (i.e. hang) some Windows Netscape 4 
versions:

http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/css_only/import_single_quotes_no_url.html
but I'm guessing that the fact it's inside
 style type=text/css media=all/style
gets around that? Hacks within hacks within hacks...

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RE: [WSG] Other character sets/languages

2005-02-21 Thread John Horner
Then you might like these pickers - designed for non-native user 
input. (Note that the Latin  diacritics picker probably includes 
most of what's needed for Vietnamese.)

http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/pickers/
Thanks for that, very useful. I was skeptical, Vietnamese having such 
a wide variety of accents, double-accents, and even accents below as 
well as above the letter, but I was pleasantly surprised. I think 
they're all there and any set that includes the letter O with a 
little comma sticking out of the side plus a teeny question mark 
floating over the top (as seen in everyone's favourite Vietnamese 
word, Ph) seems to be pretty much complete.

Thanks again everyone for your help. I'll let you look at the website 
when it's done.

Oh and incidentally, the Vietnamese Professionals Society are the 
body that looks after this kind of thing, fonts, keyboard layouts and 
so on, and they use and recommend Unicode here: 
http://www.vps.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=91 so they're solidly on 
board with standards too.



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Re: [WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?

2005-02-21 Thread John Horner
Slightly off-[this]topic, but does anyone have an explanation for how 
vertical alignment got missed in the creation of CSS? This topic 
comes up again and again. I mean, forgive me for being crass, but did 
they just forget? Or was it not considered necessary?

I imagined that they would have a big list called Stuff You Can 
Already Do which they worked through -- and vertical alignment 
should have been on it...

It offends my sense of logic to see all these complex hacks and 
workarounds for such a simple thing.

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Re: [WSG] Other character sets/languages

2005-02-17 Thread John Horner
Thanks very much for that, Dejan.
Choose charset UTF-8 (not UTF-8 BOM) when saving.
Can you explain the difference?
Don't forget to mark up properly the Vietnamese content with div 
lang=vi or such...
Now the one easy thing about this project is that Vietnamese already 
contains all the unaccented roman letters. So I can set the whole 
page to be vietnamese I guess and it won't stop the English being 
English... Or would that cause a problem?

Thanks again,

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[WSG] Other character sets/languages

2005-02-16 Thread John Horner
This is kind of embarrassing to admit, but for the very first time, 
I've undertaken to code a page (partially) in another language, and 
in another character set too, and I don't really know how to do it 
properly.

And it's not just a matter of a few accents here and there -- the 
language is Vietnamese, which has all kinds of interesting 
double-diacritics and things like a crossed-out letter D 
(strikeD/strike would approximate it).

So, where to start?
The standards way to do it these days is with Unicode, right? In the 
old days we would have used one of the three different Vietnamese 
encodings -- TCVN, VPS or VISCII are what FireFox offers me -- but 
now Unicode should have done away with that stuff?

So, do I code the page in UTF-8? I don't use a special Vietnamese encoding?
And, no matter what you guys tell me, as I don't read the language, 
someone else will  supply me with the text, and I can only pray it's 
from a Unicode-compliant source?

I tried to educate myself about Unicode by reading Joel Spolsky's 
The Absolute Minimum Every Software Developer Absolutely, Positively 
Must Know About Unicode and Character Sets (No Excuses!) 
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html which was very 
entertaining, but I'm not sure I got it or I wouldn't be asking...

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[WSG] Why DO floats not stretch their containers?

2005-02-10 Thread John Horner
This is more of a philosophical question than a technical question, 
but here's the background. As we probably all know:

 * floated elements too big for the enclosing element spill out
 * except on IE, where they stretch the enclosing element
that's a bit simplified, but essentially correct, right?
For instance, with this code:
div style=width:300px;height:100px;border:1px solid black;
  DIV A
div style=width:100px;height:300px;border:1px solid red;float:left;
  DIV B
/div
/div
DIV B will overlap DIV A and continue down the page on its own unless 
you're in IE in which case A will stretch.

My question is, *why* is the correct behaviour the first one? It 
takes a lot of people by surprise and they often see what IE does as 
the natural and obvious thing to do.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, I really want to know!
I looked at my copy of the O'Reilly Definitive Guide by Eric Meyer 
and it just says that it's the correct behaviour, although some 
browsers don't respect it. It doesn't offer a rationale.


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Re: [WSG] Why DO floats not stretch their containers?

2005-02-10 Thread John Horner
At 1:01 PM +1000 11/2/05, Josh McDonald wrote:
I've got assloads of div class=clearbothnbsp;/div to get around this.
It's not just you! Why is that the (in some quarters) recommended 
solution, rather than just the break tag, with appropriate CSS to 
make sure it clears?

...and already we're off-topic.

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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread John Horner
I'm a bit baffled by this question -- in a way it's not about CSS or 
HTML or standards at all.

If you want to get good data from your form, and you have two radio 
buttons, then neither should be checked by default. Your CGI script 
or whatever should do the checking and return the form with you must 
select a button to proceed.

But should the browser really auto-select radio buttons for the user 
if none is selected? That seems like a very strange decision to me, 
and wouldn't allow your script to check the form as above.

So that argues that you should use a different kind of control, for 
instance a SELECT menu. The value of none can be the default, and 
your script can chuck an error if it sees none submitted.

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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread John Horner
At 11:36 AM +1100 2/2/05, John Allsopp wrote:
John,
the difference between a radio button set and checkboxes is (going 
way back to Mac UI guidelines in the 80s) is that a radio button 
group always has a value
[snip -- I did know the difference between checkboxes and radio buttons!]
If you're saying that a set of radio two or more buttons must always 
be shown with at least one pre-selected, i.e. as soon as the page 
loads, one is already selected, then there are only two options for 
the original poster to get good information from their form:

 1) Three radio buttons, one of them pre-selected for the value 
nothing or incorrect input -- the user is encouraged to select 
one of the other two and an error given by the script if they don't

 2) A select menu, with one option pre-selected for nothing as above.
The first seems kind of illogical to me, and the users will be more 
used to the second.

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Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

2005-02-01 Thread John Horner
That's the relevance to standards - i.e. that if it's only standard 
if there is a default radio button and never valid if none of them 
are 'checked' then the standard is wrong and ought to be changed.
I heartily agree, Mike.

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Re: [WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list

2005-01-27 Thread John Horner
Just put the H3 before the list begins!

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Re: [WSG] Class -vs- ID

2005-01-12 Thread John Horner
What is the advantage of an ID over simply giving something an ID??
My explanation for the existance of IDs in CSS is simply that if IDs 
are there to be used in HTML, then they need to be there in CSS too.

In other words, if you're sitting there with your own HTML document 
and you're wondering what's the difference between using an ID and a 
class to style one particular H1 element, there really isn't one.

But if you're in control only of the CSS document, trying to style a 
page created by someone else, or otherwise beyond your control, and 
they've used IDs for whatever reason, the CSS syntax allows you to do 
that too.

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RE: [WSG] molly gets a redux makeover

2004-12-23 Thread John Horner
There's no background colour for the BODY, it appears. Was that deliberate?

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Re: [WSG] formatting the a tag

2004-12-15 Thread John Horner
This may be too obvious to mention, but one reason why the formatting 
of a:link doesn't work might be that it's actually an a:visited and 
therefore *supposed* to be a different colour.

The developers' toolbar in FireFox will reset all links for you 
(under Miscellaneous) so that you can at least eliminate that from 
your testing.

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[WSG] Somewhat OT - VERY print friendly?

2004-12-13 Thread John Horner
Something came up that I hope you won't mind my asking on this list.
I've got a database with a web interface, and one of the things I 
want to do with the content is print letters to send by physical mail.

So for the first time in my life I want to put an image into an HTML 
document with greater-than-72-DPI resolution.

I want to do that so that it prints out at decent quality on a laser printer.
What would you do? Make a huge image then force-shrink it using the 
code to an implicit 300 DPI or so? Exactly what I've regarded as a 
cardinal sin all these years?

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RE: [WSG] Why does firefox tooltip only TITLE attribute and not ALT?

2004-12-01 Thread John Horner
In case anyone ever stops by my desk and notices that I've got that 
show ALT as tooltip Mozilla extension installed, surely there's a 
special case for developers? It's much easier to check alt attributes 
with the tooltip than by reading source code after all.

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Re: [WSG] Code or Markup

2004-12-01 Thread John Horner
To me the answer is simply that HTML is code, as is PHP, as is Perl etc.
CSS is also code.
Markup is a sub-set of code: code intended to be rendered by a 
user agent, etc.

...and we can distinguish between that and the extra costs the agency 
adds by referring to the latter as mark-up.

jh

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RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread John Horner
I agree with David. Your PHP guy is simply mistaken. Or, to be 
charitable, he has failed to get across whatever point he wanted to 
make.

I can't see why opening a new window makes any difference at all. And 
if it's absolutely crucial that people don't use the back button, 
what's wrong with just telling them that?

If you can get an email from the PHP guy explaining in more detail 
what he thinks the issue is, we could discuss it in more detail.

jh
There is no need to open a new window in this case, in fact opening a
new window for the reason so that the user can't use the back button
is just lazy programming.
The form pages should hold the users information, and be able to
maintain state if the user goes backward  and submits again. This
should be session based only, of course.
This is pretty standard practice. Take a look at Amazon, eBay, PayPal
an numerous other sites.
 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:09:28 +1100
On our website, we ask people to fill in a form to register their
details for an event.

Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for
this
form, so that the user cannot use the browser's navigation buttons,
because if they do some of the information does not make it back to
the
database (or something like that!).

I told him that I don't want a new window opening as it is not
user-friendly and may be difficult for people with physical
disabilities
to use.

We have now reached an impasse. I told him I would supply examples of
similar applications online that comply with web standards i.e. do
not
open in a new window. Does anybody know of any that I can pass on?

Ta,
Priscilla
Regards,
David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org
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[WSG] Validate Inside Your Firewall

2004-11-14 Thread John Horner
There was a mention in Scott Parsons' very useful talk (Thursday's 
Sydney meeting) of the difficulty of validating pages when they were 
inside a firewall.

I just thought I'd post that it's not impossible, and give you some 
links to help you install your own validator. I'm not a 
perl/Linux/Apache guru by any means, quite the opposite -- this 
advice is offered in the spirit of if I can do it, how hard can it 
be?

Here's the W3Cs page where the validator is offered for download:
 http://validator.w3.org/source/
and here are specific instructions for installing it on Mac OSX from Apple
 http://developer.apple.com/internet/opensource/validator.html
and some less formal advice from Mediaville
 http://www.mediaville.net/articles/validator/
Here's the relevant link for the installation of the WDG validator 
(validates whole sites):

 http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/source.html
We had quite an easy run installing the WDG one, simply because we 
happened to have a server on our network already which was running 
RedHat 7.x, and I persuaded the Systems guy running it to let me 
install the validator from one of the packages:

 http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/packages/
So, if you've already got such a thing as a server with a compatible 
version of Linux, it could be relatively straightforward. If you can 
spare a Mac OSX machine, either as a whole or don't mind having it 
run a web server as well as do other work, ditto.

If you haven't got a spare machine, remember that RedHat Linux will 
run on quite old clunky PCs, and every office has got one of those 
lying about, surely? All you need now is a spare network connection. 
I would even venture that this is the kind of project that a 
work-experience person could do, given the right work-experience 
person!

Hope that encourages you to try for internal standards-based validation,
jh



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Re: [WSG] Ten questions for John Allsopp

2004-11-08 Thread John Horner
John talks about CSS Samuari, standards, Dao, dogs, line-height, font-size
and more:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/john-allsopp.cfm
Included in the more, by the way? This little nugget, dropped 
casually into an anecdote about rat's milk, the Simpsons and 
backpackers in internet cafes:

   So when I came to naming my blog, Sara, who by the time people read
   this will be my wife ...
is it off-topic to say congratulations?

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Re: [WSG] Target Attributes

2004-10-26 Thread John Horner
frames, iframes and targets become modules in XHTML 1.1. So they 
will still be around, but not in the core XHTML DTD.
Fascinating stuff. I had no idea about modules. I'll have to read in 
detail before I can claim to understand the whole thing, but at least 
it solves the mystery and shows how frames fit into the overall 
strategy.

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[WSG] Target Attributes

2004-10-25 Thread John Horner
The last thing I want to do is start the can I open new windows 
debate again -- my question is, are we not allowed to use frames any 
more?

To put it another way, I believe that frames should be avoided in all 
situations *except* the building of online applications. If one wants 
to build an online email app for instance, surely the use of frames 
is still valid (in the colloquial rather than the code sense)?

But if I were to build that online application, with a left and right 
frame, and I wanted to make my links in the left frame targe the 
right frame, they couldn't ever be valid [X]HTML strict.

My thought was that there should be a strict DTD which still allows 
targets, for use in these contexts, but there doesn't seem to be. 
What am I missing? Do web standards simply forbid frames outright?

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Re: [WSG] Target Attributes

2004-10-25 Thread John Horner
Isn't that what  XHTML-1.0-Frameset  is for??
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#a_dtd_XHTML-1.0-Frameset
Well no, the FRAMESET document is the one which defines the frames, 
i.e. it would say that left.html occupies 25% of the window and 
right.html occupies the remaining 75%, but I'm talking about the 
code in left.html and right.html themselves. Those documents 
cannot be valid strict HTML if they have target attributes in the 
links.

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RE: [WSG] Site review

2004-10-06 Thread John Horner
I just have a couple of points
 * I disabled styles to see it without, and there is an extra, blank 
LI before the Curtin site index and search Curtin there are also 
extra, blank LIs in the bottom section, corrections  feedback etc.

 * why not put a search form on the page, rather than a link to one?

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Re: [WSG] Is XHTML harmful?

2004-10-06 Thread John Horner
Can anyone explain what this means in that article?
 * A CSS stylesheet written for an HTML4 document is interpreted
   slightly differently in an XHTML context (e.g. the body element
   is not magical in XHTML
In what ways might body be magical?

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Re: [WSG] Another proper use of dl's question

2004-10-06 Thread John Horner
   dta href=dish_spoon.html ... Dish runs away with spoon/a/dt
   ddThe mystery continues as crockery takes to the streets.../dd
Works as a definition list in a semantically comforting way? Am I wrong?
If the material in your DD is actually an *extract* from the story 
being linked to, you could alternatively do it as a BLOCKQUOTE 
inside an LI

ul
  lia href=dish_spoon.html ... Dish runs away with spoon/a
blockquote
  The mystery continues as crockery takes to the streets...
/blockquote
  /li
/ul
with a P tag around the BLOCKQUOTE content if you're going STRICT...

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Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread John Horner
Almost too obvious to point out, but we have a web-based app which 
opens (full-sized) new windows sometimes, and in training, I often 
have people say what happened to the Back button? It doesn't work! 
-- if they're running a maximised Windows browser, a new window 
opening is often indistinguishable from navigation to another page. 
These are not the kind of users who will look down at the taskbar and 
notice a second window icon for IE and figure it out for themselves.

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Re: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css?

2004-09-23 Thread John Horner
At 10:40 AM +1000 24/9/04, Daniela Meleo wrote:
He wants me to change the site so that it uses frames.  The local nav would
be in the left frame  the global nav  content divs in the right.
At this point I want to stop you and say surely you must be able to 
avoid having frames and use some kind of server-side includes 
instead, but leaving that aside for the moment

I've got something rather ugly working, but (finally!) here's my question:
I understand that my content page  local nav framed pages should not have
head elements.
That's not the case, luckily. Can you say how you came to that understanding?

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Re: [WSG] Can I use frames AND css?

2004-09-23 Thread John Horner
I raised SSIs, which are beyond my skill to develop
I can absolutely assure you that they aren't, really!
but for various reasons that won't be an option.
Just in case that's another misconception, would you like to say what 
the reasons are?

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Re: [WSG] Sliding doors and Mac IE5.2

2004-08-29 Thread John Horner
I've been told that it breaks in Mac/IE5 into something like this... 
left tab img - the link - right tab img. Is it possible to get it 
right in Mac/IE5.2?
It looks fine to me in Mac IE 5.2.3 -- but then so do the Sliding 
Doors tabs used at bloglines.com, and I know that on my home 
computer, they're broken in the way that you describe.

I'll let you know which version I have at home, and if there's a 
problem, when I get home this evening... or perhaps someone on the 
list will have a different version of Mac IE 5 which demonstrates 
this problem?

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[WSG] Div-based design example

2004-08-23 Thread John Horner
A friend of mine is working on a div-based design, and as far as I 
can see, has pretty much straight away run up against some common 
problems for CSS-P newbies.

You can see a kind of stripped-down version of it here:
 http://johnhorner.nu/wsg/
and essentially the problems are that the DIVs are fine as long as 
the content fits. So if I hit Apple-Plus (increase font size) twice, 
the font size is too big and two things happen, the upper DIV starts 
to slide behind the lower ones, and the lower ones start to overlap 
the footer. This is in FireFox by the way.

What would members recommend? Does this design, for instance, require 
relative, not absolute positioning?


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Re: [WSG] Table-Free Design

2004-08-16 Thread John Horner
Thanks everyone for your help so far. I'm getting very interested in 
the work of Big John and Holly at http://positioniseverything.net/ 
and Alex at http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/ which I certainly wasn't 
familiar with. Their code is as light on the hacks as possible, but 
also fully flexible and Netscape 4 compatible, which seems 
miraculous, considering.

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RE: [WSG] ultimate noob question.... is table-less layout meaning literally?

2004-08-16 Thread John Horner
What about http://www.sitepoint.com ?
That's as complicated a structure as any I've seen, and almost 
completely table-less.
That's a particularly good example, because it uses no tables to lay 
out the page, but right at the bottom where they've got a list of 
data, best displayed using rows and columns, then they *have* used a 
table. It's almost completely table-less because some of the data 
is table data.

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[WSG] Table-Free Design

2004-08-15 Thread John Horner
If I want to find solid building blocks for a table-free layout, 
where should I start?

I mean, I know there are hundreds of websites, but the 
recommendations of this group ought to be particularly useful.

The thing is, I want a lot! In terms of the page, I'm simply looking for
 * banner
 * three-column flexible layout for the main content
 * footer
but I'm hoping that the page doesn't exhibit any strange behaviours 
when the page gets too small/content gets too bit, like DIVs 
overlapping each other or disappearing to the bottom of the page, and 
I'm even hoping that the layout can be content-first, nav-second in 
the source.

I was also hoping that the CSS can be relatively straightforward and 
not consist of 147 nested @import statements full of 
high-pass/low-pass filters and box model hack code etc.

Am I asking too much? I won't be trying to support Netscape 4, if that helps...
jh
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Re: [WSG] guide to CSS inheritance

2004-08-10 Thread John Horner
Seeing this email reminded me of something.
Yes, some CSS properties are inherited and some aren't.
Inheritance depends on *specificity*, which can be reduced to a 
mathematical formula, as in this quote from the definitive O'Reilly 
book by Eric Meyer, where it says:

  H1 {color: red;}/* specificity = 1 */
  P EM {color: purple;}   /* specificity = 2 */
  .grape {color: purple;} /* specificity = 10 */
  P.bright {color: yellow;}   /* specificity = 11 */
  P.bright EM.dark {color: brown;}/* specificity = 22 */
  #id216 {color: blue;}   /* specificity = 100 */
which makes sense.
However, I know I've read an article also by Eric, which says that 
those nice numbers which make so much sense at first glance are not 
in base ten.

I'm sure it was in his own personal website, but I can't seem to find 
it. I remember being puzzled by it at the time. If not base 10, then 
what? Hex? So a specificity of 11 is actually seventeen? And 17 is 
actually 23? Maybe I misinterpreted something?

I'd appreciate any light members could shed on this,
jh

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Re: [WSG] guide to CSS inheritance

2004-08-10 Thread John Horner
[...] I know I've read an article also by Eric, which says that 
those nice numbers which make so much sense at first glance are not 
in base ten.

I'm sure it was in his own personal website, but I can't seem to 
find it. I remember being puzzled by it at the time. If not base 
10, then what? Hex? So a specificity of 11 is actually seventeen? 
And 17 is actually 23? Maybe I misinterpreted something?
The numbers have no base at all (well, some very large one that may 
change in future and is not really relevant)

See the specification for exact details
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#specificity
[...]
Thanks a lot John, that makes sense. I guess it's a form of modular 
arithmetic, and as you say, no matter what, 1000 is bigger than 100 
which is bigger than 10 and so on, so the actual details needn't 
concern me.

But at least if my students ask me, I'll have the answer ready...

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[WSG] San Fran Examiner Standards Redesign

2004-08-02 Thread John Horner
I just read that the SF examiner has had an XHTML redesign. It looks 
very nice and there's not a TABLE in sight.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/home/
It didn't *actually* validate but it came down to one missing slash 
so I think we can forgive them.

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Re: [WSG] Good radio station sites?

2004-07-15 Thread John Horner
I'd be interested in John Horner's comments on this, as he's a 
member of this list.
Hey, put me on the spot why don't you?
Given the ABC is a government organisation shouldn't they really be 
fulfilling some requirements of the DDA?
Yes, yes we should, though traditionally Triple J has operated very 
much as their own unit, both in terms of online and the organisation 
in general, and that's probably as it should be. I really can't 
answer for their decisions or even be sure what they were.

Nice design tho'.
Well exactly.
The only comment I feel I can make about ABC Online in general is 
that we're changing, if slowly, and if websites don't validate and 
aren't standards-based or accessible, it's definitely not because the 
web-developers don't understand the issues.

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