Re: [WSG] IE6/7 behaviour

2008-06-24 Thread Jon Tan


On 24 Jun 2008, at 15:41, Rob Enslin wrote:

Code CSS snippet:

body {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;


text-align: center;



}

#wrap {
width: 832px;
margin: 0 auto;
}



…that should do it.

All the best,

Jon
-
http://jontangerine.com/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Jon Tan


On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote:


A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was  
to use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is  
perfect for this case.


Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?


Historically each stanza in a poem is a paragraph. Layout (new lines)  
began punctuating paragraphs in the later Middle Ages. Prior to that  
the lines ran into one another with punctuation used to indicate where  
breaths and breaks in the running text occurred [1]. Syntactic  
punctuation was not commonplace until after Ben Johnson's English  
Grammar in 1640. That means that layout /is/ punctuation for modern  
poetry, so markup needs to reflect that. My recommendation would be  
p for stanzas and br / line breaks for most verse. To do anything  
that returns stanzas to running text when CSS is disabled would break  
the syntax of the verse /unless/ lines are specifically punctuated  
with something other than a break at the end; a comma for example.  
pre is an alternative but does not punctuate line ends at all,  
except visually. It would be interesting to know how alternative  
browsers handle both br /s and single/double line breaks in pre  
blocks. Do they inject a pause or other aural boundary?


Jon Tan
-
http://jontangerine.com/

[1] http://www.ualberta.ca/~sreimer/ms-course/course/punc.htm



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Jon Tan


On 19 Jun 2008, at 11:06, Jon Tan wrote:


On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote:


A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was  
to use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is  
perfect for this case.


[snip] It would be interesting to know how alternative browsers  
handle both br /s and single/double line breaks in pre blocks.  
Do they inject a pause or other aural boundary?


Jon Gibbins (http://dotjay.co.uk) of GAWDS and Accessify forum has  
kindly run some screen reader tests on both p with br / and pre.  
He's also published the actual results as .MP3s:


http://lab.dotjay.co.uk/tests/screen-readers/poetry/

Jon
-
http://jontangerine.com/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

2008-05-27 Thread Jon Tan

Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM:

Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference
between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real
'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight
to me...



Hi Tom,

This might be useful: The alt attribute must be specified for the IMG  
and AREA elements. It is optional for the INPUT and APPLET elements.  
It's taken directly from: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-alt


Perhaps worth noting is that alt is short for alternative text.  
Literally, a text equivalent of the element.


On 27 May 2008, at 20:10, Andrew Freedman wrote:
I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt  
is alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever  
reason) and the title is the title of the image.  An example would  
be alt=Customer Care Logo title=We Care about you


If I read your right (assuming this hypothetical image actual has the  
text We Care About You embedded in it), the alt attribute value  
would be We Care about you and there would be no title.


Regarding the title attribute: The title attribute may annotate any  
number of elements. Taken from: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-title



How about a real
'attributes for dummies' reference??


You can pretty much get all the information you need on any attribute  
from the recommendation: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html


Hope that helps,

Jon
-
http://jontangerine.com/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] maximum backward compartible to mobile phone (WAP) users? Which XHTML DTD?

2006-03-17 Thread Jon Tan

Dejan Kozina wrote:
[...] phone owners just do not upgrade their browsers. They're far 
more likely to buy a new phone that to mess with the handset's 
preinstalled software. [...]
Very interesting and informative reply Dejan, thank you. We've been 
discussing mobile content publishing for (ironically) a mobile phone 
provider to deliver content to their own employees - the user behaviour 
you describe sounds reasonable but if you have any data to support your 
statement could you let me know? I'm particularly interested in Opera 
downloads or usage where Opera is not the default device browser.


Thanks
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Standards compliant slideshow

2006-03-13 Thread Jon Tan

Darren West wrote:

Hello,

Can anyone please recommend a standards compliant slideshow script
that uses a list of images within the HTML markup to dynamically
create the show.
  
Slightly self-promoting but try http://scooch.gr0w.com . The current 
demo is woefully out of date already with a lot of work being done now 
around extra functionality but the core slide show features will 
persist. Please feel free to try it and let us know what you think. 
There's a free for personal use download coming shortly.


All the best, Jon
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread Jon Tan
Russ, that was beautiful. The gentle sarcasm brought a tear of mirth to my 
eye. ta. lol.


russ - maxdesign wrote:

I want to talk today about respect. For those of you who have not heard 
of

this concept, respect is sometimes defined as courteous regard for
people's feelings.

When you reply to a post on the list, you should at all times try to do so
with respect. Everyone on this list is entitled to their own opinion.
Sometimes they may be factually incorrect, other times they may have a
different view from you but EVERYONE should be treated with respect.

Below are some examples of replies that LACK respect:

You are totally wrong
That is silly
That is stupid
You know nothing about...
You are dumb
You smell

Below are some more respectful alternatives:

I'm not sure I agree with that
I think you may be misinterpreting...
I respectfully disagree for the following reasons
Have you considered taking a bath?

Today's lesson: when replying to others, be courteous or leave!

In the near future I will cover a more subtle concept: how not to always
have the last word on a subject. However, that is a bit advanced for now,
one step at a time.

Russ
Miss Manors



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Search Engine Script *Little off topic*

2006-02-08 Thread Jon Tan

Hi Todd

This is self promoting but we might have what you're looking for. Please 
feel free to check our PHP plug-in Grow Search listed here:


http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat30.cfm

or directly here: http://www.gr0w.com/amos/growsearch/

There's also a livesearch version available which we've tested but not 
deployed.


Regards
Jon
www.gr0w.com

- Original Message - 
From: Todd Gleaton

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Search Engine Script *Little off topic*


No database here.  Just looking for a simple script that searches the site 
without advertisements or annual fee.


thanks for the infotg


- Original Message - 
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Search Engine Script *Little off topic*


You can always get the google search this site, or you can find free
scripts that search html documents, usually in the asp/php flavor.

If the content of your site (articles and such) is databased, its very
easy to write a search engine for that.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Todd Gleaton wrote:

Hello Everyone,

As I said in the Subject...this maybe a little off topic but I thought I
would ask the group since I am having a hard time finding what I am
looking for.

I am looking for a Search script to put on a website that will have
about 35 to 40 web pages in it.  Most of the scripts I've found through
looking you have to pay annually.  I am looking for preferablya free
script or at least one I can buy for a 1 time fee.

Anybody have any suggestions?

Thankstg




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.2/253 - Release Date: 2/7/2006

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
** 


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-06 Thread Jon Tan

Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Donna Jones said:

A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has
recently...hired a PR firm.


Why do the PR firm think they should maintain the site and not you?

Have they put forward any compelling reasons why they are better qualified
to look after a web site? Get them to justify their position.

What are the long term implications when the grant money runs out? [...]


Terrence makes good points.

I'm not being funny but how, after an 8 year relationship, does a PR firm 
have the ability to over-ride your recommendations to the NFP? Sounds to me 
like you're due a little more respect and some support from the NFP in your 
work to make sure the NFP gets a good site. My points:


- Expert PR /= expert web technologist. They are not necessarily the 
professionals [1].
- I'd be asking why web standards are *not* important, not feeling I have to 
justify why they are.
- A quick demo with JAWS or even just no style view in FF should fix their 
claims to expertise when a test page is produced.

- Reference to statutory requirements: http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/

Also, money saved in rubbish web design from this PR firm can go to more 
effect work. Even if (and no disrespect meant by this) they love the PR 
firm's designs and don't like your own ideas they can always produce the 
visual design and you code it. Either way your NFP saves money.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

[1] http://webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_11.html#a000590 


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Newcomers and Web Standards

2005-12-03 Thread Jon Tan

Lori Cole wrote:


I think I will start attending a local user group rather than using this
list as I think people behave differently face to face[...]


Lowri, I agree that people sometimes behave differently face to face. My 
impression is that the response you received was not due to any sexism - 
there are many women who participate in this list. Your impression may be 
due to what some might style arrogance but I would simply call it 
impoliteness. Taking the time to construct thoughtful responses in language 
that will most benefit the audience rather than the reputation of the writer 
is something we all need a reminder on now and again I think.


What I would say is that after many years of participating in mailing lists 
etc. what's often lacking is courtesy and social skills rather than 
willingness to share knowledge. In fact it's the opposite; knowledge is 
often shared willingly for a price which can sometimes include an impolite 
tone to the language. I do not relate this to the WSG list specifically, IMO 
it is a symptom of online communities generally and perhaps egos 
specifically.


There are many contributors to this mailing list that are worth listening to 
even if some of the language gives the impression of lacking in 
graciousness. I'd say that any lapse only relects on the person writing not 
the audience reading, nor the list in general from my observations. So don't 
miss out on the important bit regardless of anything else: The knowledge.



I am just using Notepad now to write SCRICT code and rather than reaching
for a reference book to remember a small detail or rather than running it
through a validator, I thought a text editor might help. I can certainly
research text editors myself but thought my question would be interesting
for this list to address in terms of trying to stick to standards.


Other have advised on specific tools. My advice would be that colour 
highlighting of code will help you immensly as you learn and many free 
editors either support standards / xhtml etc or have user-contributed 
plug-ins to do so. Cheking your code with the a validator will also help you 
along the way. In any case, you can definitely do better than notepad. Good 
luck.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Re: University textbook or other resources?

2005-11-26 Thread Jon Tan

Laura Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I've been asked if there are useful university-focused
textbooks or other resources suitable for teaching
accessible web design.


Hi Laura, if you didn't know already, these are superb live resources in 
addition to books:


http://www.accessify.com/
http://www.accessifyforum.com
http://www.gawds.org/

Books don't debate best practice like more dynamic sources so I'd be careful 
how they were used by students. That's not to say they aren't extremely 
useful though. Perhaps the WCAG would be the place to start along with case 
studies to demonstrate practical technique - contrary to the myth its pretty 
easy to read (and even easier with a tutor explaining as you go) 
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/. There's also a working draft of the WCAG 2.0 
too: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/. Supplementing that with judicious samples 
from the sites listed to flesh out the practice of accessible design based 
around the WCAG etc would top it off nicely.


The RNIB has good resources on web practice:
http://www.rnib.org/xpedio/groups/public/documents/code/public_rnib003460.hcsp
also a useful article on UK law:
http://www.thepickards.co.uk/Articles/The_DDA_and_IT.cfm

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Jon Tan

csslist wrote:

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
So now one has to scroll both the window and the inner element in order
to get to the content. Cute.
Ok smart ass, thats 1 page that has a vertical scroller because I havent 
resized the flash form on that 1 FRICKIN page, so there is a scroll bar, 
geezo


Personal insults are not necessary. Gunlaug is correct. At 800x600 you have 
to scroll vertically and horizontally to even see the whole of your main 
content div. This is an EXACT 800x600 px screenshot without taking in to 
account other native elements that will be below / to the site of the 
browser window: http://gr0w.com/test/img/800x600.jpg (115.84 KB). Even if, 
as you state, the site is designed to fit within 800x600 screen resolution, 
it won't.


Not only that but every empty href you have will be a dead link with 
javascript turned off. That's potentially about 10% of your audience. There 
are simple ways to have them degrade gracefully.


Some people are taking the time to make suggestions. Granted you asked about 
a specific issue however, if you don't like what they have to say feel free 
to ignore it rather than acting like a child and spitting your dummy out at 
the list. Nothing that anyone has said so far would stop your client getting 
more business. In fact, it would do the opposite by making the site better. 
Perhaps part of all of our jobs is doing what we're asked by clients, but 
perhaps part of it is advising our clients when what they want is a 
hindrance to their business. In any event, by reacting so ungraciously to 
input, I doubt it will encourage further assistance with your problem.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] menu suggestions and problems

2005-11-26 Thread Jon Tan
On Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:53 PM, Christian Montoya 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




I could have sworn I got all these e-mails last night, what's going on?!?


Ditto. 


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Dragon Way (Site Check)

2005-11-25 Thread Jon Tan
Dragon Way (Site Check)Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 8:45 AM, Web Man 
Walking wrote:


I don't have a MAC and client is complaining of:

1. Homepage - Text under dolls is not centred

Safari - exactly the same as FF/Win
IE5.2/Mac: not present

2. Homepage - No logo showing

Safari - exactly the same as FF/Win
IE5.2/Mac: not present

3. Rest of site - Top bar missing

If, 'top bar' = logo+deities/dolls menu then Safari 1.3.1: fine
IE5.2/Mac: menu and logo masthead nudged flush with the top of the page and 
top border of the content hidden by the masthead/missing

4. Rest of site - dolls (same as 1.)

see 3.

5. Slow

Safari - fine
IE5.2/Mac: Slow as hell (over a  minute). Definitely not  a connection issue 
as all other browsers are fine. Something is causing IE5.2 to struggle when 
rendering your code. Suggest they're using IE5.2/Mac to test unfortunately.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Casual Friday[Drop-Down Menus]

2005-11-25 Thread Jon Tan

Chris Kennon wrote:

I've adopted the philosophy, drop down menus are a surrogate for  detailed 
Information Architecture.  Sub-navigation should be  introduced on 
internal pages to navigate sub-sections.


Agreed under the assumption that you're not referring to navigating by 
select box. I only say that because I had a 10 minute debate with someone 
who was referring to drop-downs when they meant select. :|


Menus with drop down features are my idea of hyperhell and the majority of 
implementations are hyperdeath for screenreaders. IMO, they are often used 
instead of good contextual links, calls to action and invitations to action 
within the content proper which deliver much better usability. FWIW I think 
contextual links are also more 'natural' in the sense that in most cases, 
links from the actual content are an organic drill-down/across/up and allow 
users to make a series of logical steps towrds their goals. Too often I've 
been interested in something mentioned in the content of  page but then 
being _forced_ to use a master drop down menu to find related information 
becuse there was no link from the content to quickly drill to it.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] More on character encoding

2005-11-23 Thread Jon Tan

Jona Decker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[...]Are there any other resources people are aware of that may help me 
make this argument using standards rationale?


According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_address the character is 
valid in the local part of an address according to  RFC 2822. However, WCAG 
Checkpoint 14.1 would be appropriate if the email address will be rendered 
on the page at any time:


14.1 Use the clearest and simplest language appropriate for a site's 
content. [Priority 1]

http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-facilitate-comprehension

Again, if it will be visible checkpoint 13.1 also applies:

13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. [Priority 2]
Link text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-facilitate-navigation

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Jon Tan

Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:

ol
  li value=40/li

 is deprecated, or is it?


It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html) although 
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward 
compatibility.


One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics of an 
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.


I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe the 
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over 
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an 
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions of 
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different 
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file size 
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I 
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then 
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for 
each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or category 
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is 
achieved through that?


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread Jon Tan

SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Is there a way to make it display the image at the END of the LINK,
instead of at the end of the LINE?
I've messed around w/ placement and padding etc. No joy.


Hi Sunny

Turning them off for IE has always been my answer. If you realy want the bg 
img in there to indicate an external link one workaround is to add a span 
before the closing /a and apply a bg to that but it's a little verbose.


btw... [off topic] for all of you who may go to the Melbourne bbq *blah* on 
behalf of anyone suffering under winter in the northern hemisphere; when 
people start talking about frisbees I get jealous.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Jon Tan

Somaya Langley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[...]* the way that's been selected is to show a thumbnail icon and the 
title

or some descriptive metadata
(similar to search results pages on the site:
http://www.musicaustralia.org)


If the ol is just to place the record in a block of search results like 
the example site then it might be worth considering dl with dt as the 
hyperlinked title - that would also apply more meningful html to the title 
of the item returned. The results description shown contextualy [Resources 
(1-20 of 529)] etc. numbers the block anyway. Interesting site btw.


Jon Tan

www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:29 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1


Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:

ol
  li value=40/li

 is deprecated, or is it?


It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html)
although
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward
compatibility.

One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics
of an
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.

I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe
the
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions
of
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file
size
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for

each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or
category
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is
achieved through that?

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



--
Incoming: No virus found.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/180 - Release Date: 23/11/2005


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of 
Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: 
http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view

My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual 
effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then 
style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically 
useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: 
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

Jon Tan
Grow Collective
www.gr0w.com


- Original Message - 
From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br


I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:

pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?

If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?

Hope Stewart

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005




-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan



span has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply
formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the
hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to
avoid using a br / element of two.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.


The hCard format adds meaning to span's in this instance and additonal 
page weight is tiny.


Kind regards
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 
09/10/2005







--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used
only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that 
might
be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about br. 
I'll

have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a
pleasure!


Yes, you're correct about address: Part of the presentation was also a 
comment about address being a misnomer with the example in the spec being 
contradictory or at least not congruent with the actual specification and 
therefore not suitable for addresses in this context.


[...] considered using span but to me the code looks much cleaner and the 
css

has one less item by using br /. (I like the less-is-more concept.)



|Hope Stewart


I would usally totally agree with  the 'less is more' point but I disagree 
that br / has any intrinsic semantic value - it is purely presentational 
whereas span could if the hCard micoformat was used and it also neatly 
solves the visual requirement.





--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should
be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were
using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?


I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate address lines would 
be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, which regardless of 
what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by screen readers. 
Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents too? I.e:


The Secretary,
Your Club,
PO Box 999,
Anytown VIC 3000.

Is just as semantically correct as

The Secretary, Your Club, PO Box 999, Antown VIC 3000.

Regards
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a
div in the first place?  What are we gaining that I have missed?


Hi Lea,
The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names as per 
http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference 
but I would always seek to minimise the block level grouping elements in my 
mark-up.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com




--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.

Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 
09/10/2005


Hi Graham
Without being pedantic, you're quoting from the HTML 3.0 Draft (Expired) 
which has been superceded by HTML4.01. It's arguable whether address 
applies to the whole resource or just a document within it, but my personal 
reading of the spec suggests to me that it's not appropriate for global 
contact information for a whole resource like a web site which was the 
example intitally given in the discussion. The HTML4.01 address 
recommendation is here: 
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6


Regards
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com 




--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them
behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4?


If it was pure presenation, sure, but this was with reference to sematics. A 
hCard (which was the original idea of the reply) needs more: 
http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Ref. using address: Mordechai 
Peller pointed out div within address is invalid.




--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**