Re: [WSG] flat form with check boxes [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2011-09-12 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
Intention and purpose is everything.
Without a clear idea of either, it's hard to be certain on a reasonable route.

If there is no form or submit button, then the checkboxes WILL confuse screen 
readers. I disagree that5 you want to indicate interaction. no-one benefits 
from ticking boxes they can't submit or do anything with. I'd check but I think 
having checkboxes without a form breaks WCAG2 LevelA compliance. 

I like David's suggestion of making the elements an ul (you do say: The 
point of the page is that it’s a checklist) and create a custom, printable 
symbol, placed via CSS. for the bullet points. If done that way JAWS would 
ignore them.

If you can go back, I'd consider it a form, that you check the things you DO 
comply with, leave the others blank, then submit it for a score. The resulting 
page can give advice on how to comply with the ones you have not done and maybe 
give you a score. Which you can then print out.

but if you don't have room to suggest that then I would deffo go for David's 
suggestion of the ul with a custom bullet symbol in CSS.

ul { list-style-image: url('/images/main/sqbox.gif'); }
OR
ul .chqbx { list-style-image: url('/images/main/sqbox.gif'); }

where .chqbox is the class applied to that ul

Joe


On 12/09/2011, at 16:27 , Chris Vickery wrote:

 Thanks Darren,
 In our case, it’s a requirement that we use HTML, not PDF or word. Graphical 
 elements are an option and it’s how they’re done at the moment, but I would 
 have thought a Jaws user would find that quite confusing. I would think a 
 checkbox symbol would be better practice because there’s no confusion for any 
 level of user if there’s some interaction required #9744; but I might be 
 wrong (and you’ve got to check cross browser compatibility).
  
 I like Joseph’s idea that you could fill out the checkboxes and print rather 
 than submit. It’s a simple eloquent solution and I think a lot of users would 
 get value from checking some boxes that they know they’re compliant with off 
 the top of their head, then manually go through the rest with pen and paper 
 later. I’m not sure if we’ll be allowed to do that though.
  
 The point of the page is that it’s a checklist that people can run through to 
 see how their business complies with a general set of rules. The page wasn’t 
 really designed by a web person so it’s a bit unclear what the intention is, 
 for people to read the form as general advice or actually check off each 
 point. We don’t have the option of changing the text or going back for 
 clarification.
  
 The way it’s written means to me, it makes more sense as a check box list but 
 not really as an ol or ul unfortunately.
  
 There’s a couple of options that would probably pass the bar to varying 
 degrees, but is what is the best practice?
  
 Thanks everyone for the input so far.
  
  
 From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
 Behalf Of Darren Lovelock
 Sent: Monday, 12 September 2011 3:58 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] flat form with check boxes [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
  
 Hi Chris,
  
 Why not make the printable form a word doc or pdf for them to download, 
 rather than coding it into the page as a form or image?
  
 That way you wont confuse the users and you have the option of still making 
 the pdf form interactive.
  
 If that's not possible then I would use an image for the check boxes with 
 clear instructions that the page is there for printing. 
  
 Darren Lovelock 
 MunkyOnline.com
 
 On 12 Sep 2011, at 05:57, Chris Vickery chris.vick...@oaic.gov.au wrote:
 
 Hi all,
 We’ve got some flat forms on our site, ie. They are not interactive forms, 
 and have no submit button. They are indicating that it’s a check list that 
 can be ticked once the page is printed.
  
 Someone suggested putting in regular check boxes and having no submit button, 
 but wouldn’t that make it confusing from both and accessibility and usability 
 point of view?
 At the same time using a graphical or styled element with Alt tag seems messy 
 and cringe worthy as a work around.
  
 I’ve got my own ideas, but what does everyone think is best practice in this 
 case?
  
 Regards,
 Chris
 
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Re: [WSG] flat form with check boxes [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2011-09-11 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
Hi Chris
Let me recap to make sure I get this. Pardon me if I miss the mark.

The web page is flat HTML and it has checkboxes, so that were someone to print 
the page, they would use those checkboxes to mark with a pen.
The checkboxes have no purpose online, as you can't submit their information 
with a submit button.
Content on the page includes text, which, when printed, makes sense alongside 
the checkboxes.

You're concerned about accessibility, rightly, since you have form elements 
without a form. but also from a Standards viewpoint, I hope, since there are 
form elements but no means or reason to submit them.

Can I ask, what is the point of the page? it might help contextualise the 
response.

My initial question is why, since the checkboxes are to be used in that way, 
they cannot be graphical, or, conversely, why not allow users to fill in the 
form and turn your submit action into a print action, thus potentially covering 
both accessibility and standards compliance?

J

On 12/09/2011, at 14:57 , Chris Vickery wrote:

 Hi all,
 We’ve got some flat forms on our site, ie. They are not interactive forms, 
 and have no submit button. They are indicating that it’s a check list that 
 can be ticked once the page is printed.
  
 Someone suggested putting in regular check boxes and having no submit button, 
 but wouldn’t that make it confusing from both and accessibility and usability 
 point of view?
 At the same time using a graphical or styled element with Alt tag seems messy 
 and cringe worthy as a work around.
  
 I’ve got my own ideas, but what does everyone think is best practice in this 
 case?
  
 Regards,
 Chris
 
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Re: [WSG] accessibility statements... what are they worth?

2011-09-05 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
HI all

whereas accessibility (a.k.a. a11y) is not about web standards, one aspect of 
it is about conformance with standards, in particular, the parsing of code.  So 
I guess it's OK to talk about it here for a little bit.

There are two points to consider here:

I just had a look at the myki accessibility statement and there are several 
interesting issues.
WCAG 1.0 measures conformance against Priority 1, 2, and 3, 
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#priorities
WCAG 2.0 measures against success criteria levels A, AA, AAA: 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/

Saying they attempt to conform to WCAG 1.0 Level AA shows they don't know what 
they're talking about. I would be surprised, in fact if they even met the 
conditions they claim to have met. In fact, if you follow the link that states 
they conform to the Victorian Government Standard from your link: 
(http://www.myki.com.au/Home/Accessibility/Accessibility/default.aspx) it 
actually states the VIC standard is WCAG 2.0 and they must meet the NTS timeline

The second point is that all AU gov sites are required to PASS, not reasonable 
effort to ensure, but actually successfully MEET the WCAG 2.0 Level A criteria 
by Dec 2012 and Level AA by dec 2014 according to the AGIMO Web Accessibility 
National Transition Strategy (NTS).  
http://webguide.gov.au/accessibility-usability/accessibility/

In fact, if you follow the link that states they conform to the Victorian 
Government Standard from your link: 
(http://www.myki.com.au/Home/Accessibility/Accessibility/default.aspx) it 
actually states the VIC standard is WCAG 2.0 (not 1.0) and they must meet the 
NTS Guidelines.

According to the strategy, now is when they should have formulated a plan and 
started on the road to transitioning to a fully compliant site by the first 
deadline.

In conclusion, if you feel like complaining, the best bet would be to make the 
owners of the site aware of this discrepancy, and their obligations and request 
a timeframe on when they expect to meet their obligation for compliance. 

J


On 04/09/2011, at 22:39 , Istvan Vincze wrote:

 Hi Andrew :)
 
 I have a bit of a peeve with the Myki site, too... a lot in fact. When the 
 site was launched I had a bit of a poke around the source and found it to be 
 a pretty low-effort job, so not surprised about your findings. Glad you 
 looked into this. I'd suspect the Metlink site has similar failings.
 
 Considering that it's public transport, I'd also expect a mobile optimised 
 site and/or web app to manage account. I've finally found an app (on android, 
 possibly iOS too) called MyUsage that can at least retrieve my Myki (amongs 
 many other services) balance easily.
 
 Istvan
 
 
 On 4 September 2011 21:51, Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com wrote:
 Hi all,
 I recently had some problems with the Myki website (I like to use the
 keyboard to navigate - they don't make it easy!), which prompted me to
 visit the site's accessibility page.
 http://www.myki.com.au/Home/Accessibility/Accessibility/default.aspx
 
 There, they make a claim about their efforts to reach WCAG AA
 compliance. Ever pedantic, I ran a few checks over the site, and found
 many errors that would indicate that this simply isn't so. In fact
 only one of the five pages I tested actually passed!
 
 Does it have to wait for someone to bring an action against them, or
 is there some other sort of trigger that can be used to prompt them to
 action? After all, this isn't just some business selling widgets, it's
 a public transport ticketing system!
 
 --
 Andrew Harris
 and...@woowoowoo.com
 http://www.woowoowoo.com
 
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Re: [WSG] php word press error help

2010-09-19 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
You probably want to be mailing these questions to a wordpress
group, Marvin, as it's not a WSG issue.

Also, you don't need to run it on your local machine. it would make the most
sense to host it externally, on a shared server like Dreamhost, if you're OK
with a US-based server.

Joe


On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Marvin Hunkin startrekc...@gmail.comwrote:

  hi.
 where can i get the latest version of php and my sql.
 got wamp server 2.0.
 or is that over kill.
 will poste the error message below.
 read the word press help.
 went to word press admin, then install php.
 and here's the error message below.
 thank you for your help.
 marvin.

  [image: WordPress] Error: PHP is not running

 WordPress requires that your web server is running PHP. Your server does
 not have PHP installed, or PHP is turned off.
  [image: WordPress]get_var(SHOW TABLES LIKE '$wpdb-users') != null );
 // Ensure that Blogs appear in search engines by default $blog_public = 1;
 if ( ! empty( $_POST ) ) $blog_public = isset( $_POST['blog_public'] );
 $weblog_title = isset( $_POST['weblog_title'] ) ? trim( stripslashes(
 $_POST['weblog_title'] ) ) : ''; $user_name = isset($_POST['user_name']) ?
 trim( stripslashes( $_POST['user_name'] ) ) : 'admin'; $admin_password =
 isset($_POST['admin_password']) ? trim( stripslashes(
 $_POST['admin_password'] ) ) : ''; $admin_email = isset(
 $_POST['admin_email'] ) ? trim( stripslashes( $_POST['admin_email'] ) ) :
 ''; if ( ! is_null( $error ) ) { ?

 ERROR: %s' ), $error ); ?



 /

 ' . __( 'Already Installed' ) . '

 ' . __( 'You appear to have already installed WordPress. To reinstall
 please clear your old database tables first.' ) . '

 ' . __('Log In') . ' http://../wp-login.php
 ' ); } $php_version = phpversion(); $mysql_version = $wpdb-db_version();
 $php_compat = version_compare( $php_version, $required_php_version, '=' );
 $mysql_compat = version_compare( $mysql_version, $required_mysql_version,
 '=' ) || file_exists( WP_CONTENT_DIR . '/db.php' ); if ( !$mysql_compat 
 !$php_compat ) $compat = sprintf( __('You cannot install because WordPress
 %1$s http://codex.wordpress.org/Version_%1$s requires PHP version %2$s
 or higher and MySQL version %3$s or higher. You are running PHP version %4$s
 and MySQL version %5$s.'), $wp_version, $required_php_version,
 $required_mysql_version, $php_version, $mysql_version ); elseif (
 !$php_compat ) $compat = sprintf( __('You cannot install because WordPress
 %1$s http://codex.wordpress.org/Version_%1$s requires PHP version %2$s
 or higher. You are running version %3$s.'), $wp_version,
 $required_php_version, $php_version ); elseif ( !$mysql_compat ) $compat =
 sprintf( __('You cannot install because WordPress 
 %1$shttp://codex.wordpress.org/Version_%1$srequires MySQL version %2$s or 
 higher. You are running version %3$s.'),
 $wp_version, $required_mysql_version, $mysql_version ); if ( !$mysql_compat
 || !$php_compat ) { display_header(); die(' ' . __('Insufficient
 Requirements') . '

 ' . $compat . '
 '); } switch($step) { case 0: // Step 1 case 1: // Step 1, direct link.
 display_header(); ?

 ReadMe documentation at your leisure. Otherwise, just fill in the
 information below and you’ll be on your way to using the most extendable and
 powerful personal publishing platform in the world.' ), '../readme.html' );
 ?

 error ) ) wp_die( $wpdb-error-get_error_message() ); display_header(); //
 Fill in the data we gathered $weblog_title = isset( $_POST['weblog_title'] )
 ? trim( stripslashes( $_POST['weblog_title'] ) ) : ''; $user_name =
 isset($_POST['user_name']) ? trim( stripslashes( $_POST['user_name'] ) ) :
 'admin'; $admin_password = isset($_POST['admin_password']) ?
 $_POST['admin_password'] : ''; $admin_password_check =
 isset($_POST['admin_password2']) ? $_POST['admin_password2'] : '';
 $admin_email = isset( $_POST['admin_email'] ) ?trim( stripslashes(
 $_POST['admin_email'] ) ) : ''; $public = isset( $_POST['blog_public'] ) ?
 (int) $_POST['blog_public'] : 0; // check e-mail address $error = false; if
 ( empty( $user_name ) ) { // TODO: poka-yoke display_setup_form( __('you
 must provide a valid username.') ); $error = true; } elseif ( $user_name !=
 sanitize_user( $user_name, true ) ) { display_setup_form( __('the username
 you provided has invalid characters.') ); $error = true; } elseif (
 $admin_password != $admin_password_check ) { // TODO: poka-yoke
 display_setup_form( __( 'your passwords do not match. Please try again' ) );
 $error = true; } else if ( empty( $admin_email ) ) { // TODO: poka-yoke
 display_setup_form( __( 'you must provide an e-mail address.' ) ); $error =
 true; } elseif ( ! is_email( $admin_email ) ) { // TODO: poka-yoke
 display_setup_form( __( 'that isn’t a valid e-mail address. E-mail addresses
 look like: usern...@example.com' ) ); $error = true; } if ( $error ===
 false ) { $wpdb-show_errors(); $result = wp_install($weblog_title,
 $user_name, $admin_email, $public, '', $admin_password); extract( $result,

Re: [WSG] RE: Fonts in MS Publisher compared to onlineRe:

2010-09-15 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
I vote @font-face

worth=2cents /

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Tony Crockford to...@boldfish.co.ukwrote:

 On 15 Sep 2010, at 03:20, Luke Hoggett wrote:

 Check out

- Google Font Directory http://code.google.com/webfonts
- TypeKit http://typekit.com/ which can be used through Google Font
Directory

 and Cufón, and @font-face with packs from font squirrel:

 Cufón:
 http://github.com/sorccu/cufon/wiki/About
 and the generator:
 http://cufon.shoqolate.com/generate/

 @font-face:
 http://www.miltonbayer.com/font-face/
 http://www.fontsquirrel.com/




 --
 Tony Crockford
 to...@boldfish.co.uk




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Re: [WSG] HTML5 with Chrome

2010-09-02 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
Although the base site is XHTML it uses HTML5 in the extra windows. (which
you can still manipulate BTW)

As for wastefulness, it's effectively a music video, so think who their
audience is before answering that for yourself.

The HTML 5 issue is the creation of the video feed in near real-time from a
google maps / streetview reference and play that with several other vids
simultaneously using HTML5 (as opposed to the current common Flash platform)
code. Also, the collision and mouse detection without Flash is also of
interest.

It is an example of what can be expected from HTML 5 in the near future. For
cultural sites, there's a good reason to put HTML 5 on the table. Also for
example, kiosk experiences, where you get to control the platform. or for
mobile apps, where HTML5 can be a lighter drain on the processor.

So, as with most questions, the wastefulness can be measured by assessing
the audience, purpose, goals, platform and strategy first.

PS: it works in Safari as well.


On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 12:36 AM, Jason Arnold jaon.arn...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE)
 kevin.erick...@doe.virginia.gov wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I found an edgy “Chrome Only”, HTML5 development here,
  http://www.chromeexperiments.com/, called The Wilderness Down and am
  wondering if this wasteful, at this point in time, to develop an HTML5
 site
  like http://www.thewildernessdowntown.com/? If it is, how long is your
 ETA
  of when it will be the normal?

 Well, since that page is actually a doctype of XHTML 1.0 Transitional
 (not HTML5, although one could say it's HTML5 because it uses some
 HTML5 tags but it's clearly XHTML 1.0) and that it doesn't work I'd
 say it's wasteful.  However, is it wasteful to create a working site
 in HTML5, depends on your audience and the type of content you need to
 implement.  If it's a site like this one that suppose to be all rich
 interactive (aka using the canvas tag) and has to work in IE6/7/8 then
 it might be wasteful since you'd want to also create a flash version
 to replace the canvas tag for those versions of browsers that don't
 support the canvas tag yet.  However, for all other tags in HTML5 you
 would be fine building a site with them today and not be wasteful.

 --

 
 Jason Arnold
 http://www.jasonarnold.net

 


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Re: [WSG] OT: Dominos Pizza - Looking for someone who's worked there

2009-06-16 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
I'd rather order from any one of the 10-12 brilliant independent pizza  
places in my neighbourhood. Why help Dominos when they can't be assed  
to do a decent job of it themselves?


Think Global, Live (and shop) Local

Joe


On 17/06/2009, at 01:47 , James Ducker wrote:


For any web service developers out there, here's a link to Dominos
Australia's SOAP API:

https://internetorder.dominos.com.au/InternetOrderingUIService/UIService.asmx

I'm currently writing a command line port of the online ordering
system (hobby project). It's almost done :)

- James


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.: www.domain.com.au/shop/ 
.


I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy  
and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are  
terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO.


Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT  
complicated to do?


Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote:

I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as  
well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an  
ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine  -  
julesroc.com.au


I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part  
of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is  
what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or  
an ecommerce component within their site.


Cheers
Adam
magento user: tweakmag
- Original Message -
From: 8bits Media
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - 
http://www.magentocommerce.com/

The makers of this product have done a great job of making it  
standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of  
integrating it into a new project.


Regards,

Nick
8bits Media

On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote:

 Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do  
an adequate job  ?


My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with  
Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could  
as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge.

That's what I am afraid of.


I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague  
charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce  
solution so you can do it in the future.

Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary.

Kind regards

Lyn


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
$500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days  
work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to me...


That's half my day rate

Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote:


On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote:

Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but  a  
new client will need one.  I would appreciate some advice. Do the  
free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job  or  
would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid one.  I  
have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I would be  
looking at about a minimum of  $500.


The second question is who does what?  Once I have the cart (either  
a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the  
website,  who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would  
need to be shown how to do this?  What is the usual procedure?


Thanks.


Hi Lyn,

Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked  
into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through,  
but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready.  
So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal.


Just my 2¢ :)


--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
which one is yours Martin? can I see an example? I have a client  
looking for one right now... might custom build bits, might not

Joe

On Aug 13, 2008, at 12:05, Adam Martin wrote:

I agree... you get what you pay for. $500 is nothing. I know that I  
have spent about 500hrs in building my integrated ecomerce solution  
- but it has been well thought out - it is stds compliant etc etc. I  
would suggest having a look at shopify if you want a cheap basic but  
good ecommerce solution



- Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what


$500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days
work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to  
me...


That's half my day rate

Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote:


On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote:

Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but   
a  new client will need one.  I would appreciate some advice. Do  
the  free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate  
job  or  would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid  
one.  I  have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I  
would be  looking at about a minimum of  $500.


The second question is who does what?  Once I have the cart  
(either  a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded  
to the  website, who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client  
would  need to be shown how to do this?  What is the usual  
procedure?


Thanks.


Hi Lyn,

Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked   
into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through,   
but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was  
ready.  So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a  
decent deal.


Just my 2¢ :)


--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Good points Krystian

I've make standards compliant templates in ZenCart but it was a very  
hard slog and involved minimising a lot of the functions and layout  
options, not ideal. Also, you rightly address semantic mark-up as  
vital which few cart options get right. If I'm in the dvd section, the  
h1 should reflect that as different than when I am looking at Shop   
DVDs  Star Wars, where Star wars should be the h1.


I find most generic shopping carts are good for selling books and dvds  
but very difficult for the client to understand when they have less  
than simple products. ZenCart for example does not let you easily  
stock control t-shirts across different size/colour/variations easily.


So the gauntlet has been thrown. A simple, customisable shopping cart,  
that is at least _somewhat_ standards compliant, uses CSS (with tables  
only for tabular data, not layout) and allows one or more template  
with a usable template engine (allowing the developer to force  
standards compliance by generating their own templates.)


Anyone?
Joe

On Aug 13, 2008, at 14:00, Krystian - Sunlust wrote:


Okay, I'll try to bring it back OnTopic.

Which of shopping cards actually uses css based templates without
tones of tables? And if noone will mind, which CMS does so?
I mean,I'm using Joomla and everyone says that the templates are
standard compliant etc, but when I see the bloody header named
contentheader instead of h2 it really pisses me off - not semantic
and not SEO friendly.

What's your best practice for Shopping Carts templates/systems, would
you rather restyle a template to make it more standard compliant or
start from a scratch, and same with coding, do you sometimes try to
fix shopping cart software to customize it or do you not as it makes
it hard to update later on?

Regards,

--
Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A:
Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net
Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/


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Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

I shortened the URL for you.

That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as  
opposed to then...


http://is.gd/1q4a

Joe

On Aug 13, 2008, at 17:07, Kepler Gelotte wrote:

If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that  
can
(or can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be  
us; any

idea how we could list and share?


I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there  
about this

topic already:

http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien
dly-shopping-cart-/



Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904




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Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

surely you've heard of tinyURL?


On Aug 13, 2008, at 17:51, Bruce wrote:



From: Joseph Ortenzi wrote:

I shortened the URL for you.
That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as   
opposed to then...

http://is.gd/1q4a
Joe


I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there   
about this

topic already:
http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien
dly-shopping-cart-/


How does the url go from one domain to another?
http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-friendly-shopping-cart-/

Much less being unreadable as to content

bruce
bkdesign solutions



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Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell

2008-08-07 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
no this is tabular data, but could do with some organising though, and  
reduce the visual info, much too intense...



On Aug 07, 2008, at 17:02, EBS wrote:


Could you not do this with div's and use an unordered list?

Mathew O'Connor
Essential eBiz Solutions


 Original message 
From: kevin mcmonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell

Ok here it is-Im just putting this up here as a last ditch effort.

http://67.199.64.89/newtable3.html

Can anyone offer advice on fixing/locking table cell/row height across
browsers?


The main problem is making the two adjacent tables appear to be one
continuous table. Getting the cell  height to line up is proving very
difficult, maybe impossible.  It aligns ok in ff3 but breaks in ie6  
and

ie7 both in different ways. Im using the height  html attribute right
now because i cant think of another way to fix the height of cells  
with

the differnt kinds of different data in them.

Im trying to fix a broken .net  layout with css and html.
Its never going to validate, theres nothing i can do about that.

-best
kevin














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Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell

2008-08-07 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
are you certain the show hide is both necessary and cannot be resolved  
in another way? If you need show/hide you could nest the content in a  
div in the table cells maybe?

Joe

On Aug 07, 2008, at 17:07, kevin mcmonagle wrote:


cheers joseph,
its two different tables because of some show hide function that  
requires that.

I pushed for one table but apparently that cant be done.
Thanks for the tip on the images, that was causing a problem, im  
going to clear them and use text.


Regarding this:

td {
 min-height: 50px;
 _height: 50px; /* for  IE7 */
 }


brilliant thanks

-best
kevin



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Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell

2008-08-07 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

FireFox2


On Aug 07, 2008, at 17:15, kevin mcmonagle wrote:


joseph what browser is that screen shot from?
i wasnt getting the left hand text overflowing like that in any of  
my browsers.

-best
kevin



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Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell

2008-08-07 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
I'd challenge the developer to create something that allows the data  
to remain tabular and logical. If he can't do it I'd say he's not up  
to the task. My dev's could!



On Aug 07, 2008, at 17:12, kevin mcmonagle wrote:

yes for some reason programmer needs two tables which was the  big  
issue  for me.

I have the height alignments just about worked out  now though.
Regarding the color, there isnt much color in the table layout,  
unless you counting black which is a shade like white.
The input boxes have to be color coded i need to adjust those as  
they are quite busy at the  moment.

-thanks
kevin



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Re: [WSG] form from hell - difficult redesign

2008-08-06 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Wilbur

What''s your budget?
Would you be able to spec it so the brief can be distributed?

Joe


On Aug 06, 2008, at 11:47, Wilbur Pereira wrote:


Hi Jessica,

I'm looking for somebody who can help me have user friendly and  
accessible forms. The product that I'm working has a lot of ajax in  
it and is built using prototype, prototype windows,yui etc in  
ASP.NET. Please let me know when can we possibly take this further.  
The product facilitates creation of questionnaires for market  
research, employee feedback etc.


http://www.xurway.com/

It's still in it's preview mode so bugs are expected and we yet to  
build many critical features into the application.


regards,
wilbur

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Jessica Enders [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

Hi Kevin

I'm no developer, but I can certainly advise on the *design*  
component of the project, if that would be of some assistance.


I have designed GUIs for a travel and hotel booking engines before  
and as Joe Ortenzi says, I've been doing some research lately on  
tabular data.


Feel free to contact me off-list.

Jessica Enders
Principal
Formulate Information Design

http://formulate.com.au

Phone: (02) 6116 8765
Fax: (02) 8456 5916
PO Box 5108
Braddon ACT 2612


On 31/07/2008, at 11:09 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote:

Hi I've been asked to redesign the gui on a hotel booking engine /  
room allocation web app.


Its basically the busiest example of tabular data ive ever seen -  
most data in the cells is input.


Any Advice on styling an overwhelming amount tabular data?

-best
kevin




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Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list

2008-08-05 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

keep your handbags to yourselves please? looks like you ran off topic.
;-)

As a list reader, it would be helpful to me (and perhaps to others?)  
if discussions were kept as close as possible to Web Standards related  
issues, and kept polite and respectful. can I kindly ask you to take a  
breather from this thread and cool down until tomorrow?


Would I be considered rude if I asked you to continue this particular  
thread off board?


Thanks in advance.
Joe

On Aug 05, 2008, at 16:55, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


I spend my development time actually working on client sites...

How I spend my time is none of your concern - If your going to start  
getting

all antsy and narcissistic then its showing your not professional...



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Lewis, Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:55 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG]  
Positioning was

Extra white line on the top of my list

What would be more a productive use of your time David is validating
your pages.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

And there is plenty of We are still moving into our new site...
please bear with us... stuff that still needs to be written.

Just a suggestion.

On 5/08/2008, at 12:34 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


Well hey everybody...

It would appear Andrew has decided to take his comments out of the
public
view and turn them personal... Please read..

On Aug 1, 2008, at 2:31 PM, David Fuller - magickweb wrote:


group does NOT have to be SPECIFICALLY about web standards


Perhaps not, but totally irrelevant attacks on any platform are a
waste of
everyone's time and energy.


Frankly I don't believe anyone on this list learned anything useful
from the
fact that you don't like macs.


So as one professional to another, please keep your comments
constructive at
least. If you have a reasoned argument as to why the macintosh
platform is
inimical to web standards, I for one would be interested to hear
what you
have to say. Otherwise your remark is as useful and informative to
this list
as your tastes in ice-cream would be.



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Andrew


http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
instructions.



Andrew if you are so afraid of negative comments, don't post at all.
My
comments were not aimed @ macs or any other platform - get your
facts right
before you start sprouting your mouth off...

I used that development platform as an EXAMPLE of similar
discussions had
in the past where people got uppity... I was not referring to now..

To paraphrase yourself Andrew If you have something of value, then
don't
bring it to the forum

Why can people not realize that they are not the end all and be all,
and my
main point was this. Those with less skills than professionals like
myself
(and Andrew I don't know I haven't seen his work) will ask questions
to
learn and to grow as developers...

If we as a community want a unified web standard and it to be widely
used
and accepted, we need to encourage, help and support those who are
still
learning...

Why is that so hard for you to fathom Andrew?


David Fuller
Developer
magickweb
Web:http://www.magick.com.au
Tel:   0434 728 267
Email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:08 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning
was
Extra white line on the top of my list

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth in both David and
Adams views.

If places like this are to reach the widest possible audience they
must be
accessible to all (with reason); ditto to be a usable standards
debating
forum we should be debating the finer points not spending ALL our
time on
what the experts among us may consider to be trivial.

Two suggestions;

[1]That we all take a moment to consider those who may know a
little
less than we on a specific subject and attempt to use plain English
when
replying;  thus to help others along the way.

[2]When responding to eager questioners such as Michael suggest
that
they take the conversation off the forum; but please bring it back
when a
conclusion has been reached as I suspect I lot of equally eager  
thread

watchers may be keen to know the answer too.

I will now return to lurking

Regards

Ian Chamberlain
ex-Head of Web Strategy BT Global Services; now Freelancing and
having a
ball.
www.chamberlainsofharrogate.co.uk


- Original Message -
From: David Fuller - magickweb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, 

Re: [WSG] form from hell - difficult redesign

2008-07-31 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
There is a recent article in alistapart about tabular data. The author  
is also a WSG contributor, who might point you in the direction of  
some good research.


her site:
http://formulate.com.au

Joe

On Jul 31, 2008, at 02:09, kevin mcmonagle wrote:

Hi I've been asked to redesign the gui on a hotel booking engine /  
room allocation web app.


Its basically the busiest example of tabular data ive ever seen -  
most data in the cells is input.


Any Advice on styling an overwhelming amount tabular data?

-best
kevin




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Re: [WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??

2008-07-08 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Sorry have to jump on that one, Rick.

No application can create extra pixels where only one existed. At  
best, they can interpolate what a pixel _might need to be_ by being  
very clever about the pixels surroundings and using sophisticated  
filters and techniques, but it is an educated guess at best. There is  
no such thing as enlarging in Photoshop or any other digital, pixel- 
based application.


Only on CSI can you zoom into a 1MB image taken from 100 miles away  
and read the fingerprint on an suspect's wineglass, I'm afraid. In the  
non-fiction world, a pixel is the atomic unit.


Joe

On Jul 08, 2008, at 10:04, Rick Lecoat wrote:

 because, unlike the process of enlarging an image in, say,  
Photoshop, no extra pixels are created -- so the resolution change  
tends to be gruesome


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Re: [WSG] Image gallery layout

2008-07-07 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

OT, no?

On Jul 07, 2008, at 07:57, Al Sparber wrote:


Good morning

My client wants her image galleries to look the same (if possible)  
as on

her Power Point Presentation. These images (in PPP) are positioned
absolutely ie a certain cm measurement  from top left in each  
case.  The

images are of paintings and are NOT  of  uniform size so I am working
with different thumbnail sizes.  I have made them a uniform  maximum
150px high but of course some are a lot wider and do not reach 150px
vertically.

http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/sarwon/slightly.html

CSS is ul#img

I have tried giving them ALL a uniform height 150px  regardless of  
width

- see bottom 4 images - but of course I had to add a new bit of CSS -
ul#img2 with a much wider ul#img2 li.


You could constrain the thumbnails you see on the page to a certain  
consistent dimension, using height and width or using overflow  
hidden and then show the thumbnail in its natural aspect ration on  
hover. That can be done with pure CSS. Additionally, you could  
something like Lightbox 2 to add a bit of pizazz while eliminating  
the popup windows. If you are a Dreamweaver user, we will be  
releasing a fully automated presentation framework in a week or so.  
Here is a live preview of the output:


http://www.projectseven.com/products/staging/lightshow2/demo_01.htm

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators




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Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming

2008-07-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

I agree with Rick here.

Having to scroll horizontally is not only an accessibility issue but a  
serious design issue. I challenge AI to find proof people don't mind  
this as all my research and experience says otherwise.


Joe

On Jul 04, 2008, at 11:27, Rick Lecoat wrote:


On 3 Jul 2008, at 22:16, Al Sparber wrote:


When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means
horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA.


I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-)


Well, he's speaking for me as well.
Al, do you really *not* find having to continuously scroll back and  
forth horizontally (because the width of the text block is wider  
than the viewport) to be an annoyance?


If so then okay, but I do not believe that you are typical in this  
regard.

--
Rick Lecoat
www.sharkattack.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] Validation

2008-07-03 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
You can have standards compliant Flash instances (even though the  
content of the flash swf itself may possibly not be standards- 
compliant itself) without JavaScript.


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/

Is one source for this information.

Joe

On Jul 03, 2008, at 17:30, Joseph Taylor wrote:

Many parts of the object tag can make a validator upset -  
especially the embed portion.  You're best bet is to add the flash  
using javascript via one of the popular scripts like swfobject, ufo  
etc...


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Fuji kusaka wrote:


Hi everyone,

I have a flash animation in my webpage and this causes a big  
problem when i have to validate the page.


Can someone help me out?
--
Fuji kusaka
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Re: [WSG] Scaling a background image

2008-06-30 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

I would have though a simple CSS width:100%; , height:auto might do it?

does it need to be a background and will it conflict with anything at  
different sizes?

?
On Jun 30, 2008, at 05:15, dwain wrote:


On 6/29/08, Chris Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi,


Has anyone been able to successfully scale a CSS background image to  
the current window size? I've done some research via Google and it  
appears this can't be done purely with CSS (at least not yet), maybe  
some JavaScript?


there is a way to do it by using svg images, but i'm unclear on the  
process.  i think that the svg files has to be edited for the images  
to scale to a screen's resolution.  but anyway, svg is the wave of  
the future for web images.

cheers,
dwain


--
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky
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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-20 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
The question wasn't about keeping file extensions in URIs it was about  
what file extension the file should have, which I am sure you will  
agree is still required as the server needs to know if it is an html,  
php, css, js, etc file doesn't it.


But I completely agree, my server can serve a file.php file from www.domain.com/file 
 as long as don't stupidly name the file the same as a directory at  
the same level.


I may be that _at one time_ the windows server needed a 8.3 filename  
convention but that went out the door ages ago didn't it?


PS: the subject should really be htm vs html, no? or am I missing  
something?

Joe

On Jun 20, 2008, at 08:55, Martin Kliehm wrote:

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

   Rob Enslin wrote:
  
I recently started noticing that our CMS system  
generated .htm pages where
previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the  
support staff
and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file  
extensions (or

rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard)
  
   Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to  
actually point out

   where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be...

 I'd have to agree; I'm inclined to believe that .htm is a  
carryover

 from when Microsoft(TM) products (ie DOS) only supported file
 extensions up to 3 characters in length.

 If there is a W3C statement, I'd love to see it.

Oh, there is. The W3C advises to avoid file extensions in URLs to  
keep future compliant. Cool URIs don't change, you know. ;)


http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI


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Re: [WSG] User testing results to reinforce 'no popup' recommendation [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2008-06-20 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
Opening links in new windows is not an evil thought, no, but it is  
best avoided in most circumstances.
We should never use Experienced Users and shift+ctrl+alt as a  
benchmark as I would assume these are about 1% or less of most site  
traffic and thus a very tiny minority which shouldn't be leading the  
design. (See Krug's Don't make me think!).


External links are best sign-posted as such.

Joe

On Jun 20, 2008, at 08:57, Jason Ray wrote:

I would tend to argue the opposite (though not entirely). Links to  
external sites opening in new windows are not a bad idea in certain  
circumstances such as when external material might end up inside a  
frame, as might happen inside a Learning Management System... it  
might be advisable at that point to have the link appear in a new  
window (or tab) so as not to confuse the user and make it clear that  
this is not your site's material.


Experienced browsers will know to use their shift or ctrl + click to  
force external links into new windows or tabs, or they may have  
already have it set up to do that in their browser options using a  
tab control extension, but novice users or those who just don't do  
so well with computers likely wouldn't know to do this and could get  
confused by external material showing up inside a frame, or being  
taken away from the website they were viewing. I personally prefer  
to have external links open in new tabs, sometimes even internal  
links if I want to finish reading the page but also want to view the  
contents of one or several links afterwards, and I frequently use  
ctrl + click when clicking on links.


As an extra consideration, I just went to a copyright training  
seminar yesterday where this (external links inside frames) was  
discussed in terms of the danger of copyright infractions, and other  
nasties. I think forcing external links to open in new windows is  
not an entirely bad idea (depending on the circumstances and your  
users)...


Jason

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Brad Pollard [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

Thanks Nate for the links.

I really want to focus on the usability impacts of pop-ups.

I'd love to see the AGIMO research that was done - do you have the  
name of someone within the organisation that I could contact with  
regards to sourcing this?


~ brad

Ward, Nathan wrote:


Hi Brad,
I don't have any test data that shows this, however, below are a  
two articles from Digital Web Magazine that mention the topic.
I'm also fairly sure that AGIMO has some research on the topic but  
I couldn't find it this afternoon.
You could also check out the Vision Australia website (http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/ 
).



http://www.digital-web.com/articles/accessible_by_design/
Avoid using links that create a new browser window. If you do use  
them, warn users.  Users may not be aware of the shift in their  
system's focus.  It may disorient or confuse them.  This is also a  
usability issue since users can't use the Back button to navigate  
back and revisit pages.  It's easy to accidentally close the wrong  
window and lose what you want to access.  Add a text warning  
message or place a small icon (with a warning in the ALT attribute)  
before links that will spawn a new window.


Avoid pop-up windows, when possible.  This has problems similar  
to creating a new window, but also has JavaScript complications.   
Access to the pop-up should be device independent.  More  
importantly, make the content in the pop-up accessible if  
JavaScript is turned off.



http://www.digital-web.com/articles/designer_user_partnership/
The other area designers overstep is in controlling the user  
environment. The Web behaves in ways that are predictable to users.  
For example, when a user clicks a link, the browser requests the  
page from the Web server, the Web server sends the page to the  
browser, and the Web browser renders the page. Sometimes designers  
get involved in this transaction by moving the cursor directly to  
the search input field or opening links in a new window. We, as  
designers, use these methods because we want to be helpful. We  
assume that most users will want to use the search feature on  
arrival; to make things easier, we put the cursor in the search  
input field. We assume that most users will want to keep in contact  
with our site while exploring other sites; to make things easier,  
we open external links in a new window.
But sometimes these helpful interventions wind up causing usability  
problems because they violate expectations. People expect to begin  
listening to or tabbing through a Web page from its beginning and  
will be disoriented if the cursor focus is not at the top of the  
page. People expect to use the Back button to retrace their  
navigation path and will not be able to return to the originating  
site if it is not in the window history. While these actions may be  
helpful to some, they will create usability problems for others.  
Moving the 

Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-20 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Exactly!

But as you know, old conventions die hard!

Joe


On Jun 20, 2008, at 10:19, Ian Chamberlain wrote:

My memory is fading fast Joe, but as I recall our first windows  
based web

server (from Bob Denny's book) fixed the 8.3 limitation.

We did continue creating .htm for a while after that but only out of  
habit.


I can't remember the exact date but I would quess that we have been  
largely

free from that limitation for well over  ten years.

Regards

Ian

- Original Message -
From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] html vs. html


The question wasn't about keeping file extensions in URIs it was about
what file extension the file should have, which I am sure you will
agree is still required as the server needs to know if it is an html,
php, css, js, etc file doesn't it.

But I completely agree, my server can serve a file.php file from
www.domain.com/file
 as long as don't stupidly name the file the same as a directory at
the same level.

I may be that _at one time_ the windows server needed a 8.3 filename
convention but that went out the door ages ago didn't it?

PS: the subject should really be htm vs html, no? or am I missing
something?
Joe

On Jun 20, 2008, at 08:55, Martin Kliehm wrote:


On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]

wrote:

Rob Enslin wrote:


I recently started noticing that our CMS system

generated .htm pages where

previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the

support staff

and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file

extensions (or

rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard)


Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to

actually point out

where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be...



I'd have to agree; I'm inclined to believe that .htm is a

carryover

from when Microsoft(TM) products (ie DOS) only supported file
extensions up to 3 characters in length.

If there is a W3C statement, I'd love to see it.


Oh, there is. The W3C advises to avoid file extensions in URLs to
keep future compliant. Cool URIs don't change, you know. ;)

http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI


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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-20 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

One can only ask.

JOe

On Jun 20, 2008, at 11:16, Rob Enslin wrote:

Joe wrote: PS: the subject should really be htm vs html, no? or am  
I missing something?


Yes - should have been htm vs html.

And, I don't feel comfortable revealing the CMS vendor as we  
currently have a *great* working relationship and don't want to  
upset that ;-) [sure you understand]


Rob

2008/6/20 Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Exactly!

But as you know, old conventions die hard!

Joe



On Jun 20, 2008, at 10:19, Ian Chamberlain wrote:

My memory is fading fast Joe, but as I recall our first windows  
based web

server (from Bob Denny's book) fixed the 8.3 limitation.

We did continue creating .htm for a while after that but only out of  
habit.


I can't remember the exact date but I would quess that we have been  
largely

free from that limitation for well over  ten years.

Regards

Ian

- Original Message -
From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] html vs. html


The question wasn't about keeping file extensions in URIs it was about
what file extension the file should have, which I am sure you will
agree is still required as the server needs to know if it is an html,
php, css, js, etc file doesn't it.

But I completely agree, my server can serve a file.php file from
www.domain.com/file
 as long as don't stupidly name the file the same as a directory at
the same level.

I may be that _at one time_ the windows server needed a 8.3 filename
convention but that went out the door ages ago didn't it?

PS: the subject should really be htm vs html, no? or am I missing
something?
Joe

On Jun 20, 2008, at 08:55, Martin Kliehm wrote:

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Rob Enslin wrote:

I recently started noticing that our CMS system
generated .htm pages where
previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the
support staff
and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file
extensions (or
rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard)

Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to
actually point out
where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be...

I'd have to agree; I'm inclined to believe that .htm is a
carryover
from when Microsoft(TM) products (ie DOS) only supported file
extensions up to 3 characters in length.

If there is a W3C statement, I'd love to see it.

Oh, there is. The W3C advises to avoid file extensions in URLs to
keep future compliant. Cool URIs don't change, you know. ;)

http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI


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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Are you sure they're not right?

I'd make them prove it
Joe

On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:11, Jonathan D'mello wrote:


To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
say it will break W3C standards.

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Patrick H. Lauke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Rob Enslin wrote:

I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm  
pages where
previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the  
support staff
and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file  
extensions (or

rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard)


Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to actually  
point out

where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be...

--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate

2008-06-18 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
if you have a mac you can rename it firefox3 so you can run it side by  
side, but your extensions might get confused...

On Jun 18, 2008, at 13:17, Paul Collins wrote:


Does anyone know if it will replace your version of Firefox 2, or will
it run side by side?!

Cheers


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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-18 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

the standard is html


On Jun 18, 2008, at 17:31, Ian Chamberlain wrote:

The W3C's own site is full of four letter suffixs Rob. not that that  
means anything.


I would doubt what they are saying, but then where I came from CMS  
and web standards were on different planets.



- Original Message -
From: Rob Enslin
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: [WSG] html vs. html

Hi peeps,

I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages  
where previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the  
support staff and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard  
file extensions (or rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the  
standard)


Is this true? Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Rob

--
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Blog: http://enslin.co.uk
Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin
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Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?

2008-06-16 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

found it:

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

Thanks!


On Jun 16, 2008, at 11:28, Joseph Ortenzi wrote:


Michael

You have made some mistaken assumptions.
Search engines are not spam email farmers, so there is no need to  
PREVENT them from accessing your contacts page. You WANT them to see  
the contacts page. That is a good thing.


Standards compliance policies ARE for the users, and CLIENTS need to  
understand and respect the users' needs, which is the ability to use  
any site with their browser of choice. If you design sites solely  
for your clients needs and not the site visitor needs then you are  
assuming that users don't matter and the client knows what they need  
from a site.


I would have thought that one thing a client needs from a site is  
for the visitors to find what they are looking for, without hassle,  
and to enjoy the time they spend there, i.e.: use the site without  
problems or difficulties.


If you knew ANYTHING about web standards you would see that  
compliance with standards IS in the client's interest, helps satisfy  
the client's business needs from the site and standards freaks ARE  
making things better for BOUTH the clients and visitors.


And finally, it is not a war, it is a discussion and a debate and a  
campaign, but not a war.


I remember a few months ago someone posted a great S5 slideshow from  
sometime in 2004 describing why standards matter for everyone. Can  
you please re-post it here to help Michael understand standards a  
bit better?


Joe


On Jun 16, 2008, at 10:53, Michael Persson wrote:



The best way is a form that also has a secure SPAM code or just  
make a image

that search engines cannot read...

I believe that people that does not have Javascript working are not  
using internet
for the purpose i produce websites for, and im sorry we cant accept  
all kind of users.
Also users has to follow the standard where website production also  
is based in

the clients need and NOT on web standards.

Standard freaks are trying to make things better for web standards  
and not for the clients

or visitors in general...

There is a war and it will always be there until understanding  
from all parts are met.


Michael



James Leslie wrote:
Why is this the best way? It means that anyone without  
JavaScript enabled cannot contact you. Spam is a pain, but not  
giving a user the basic opportunity of contacting you is a bigger  
problem IMO.
I think mailto's and spam filters are the best way to go, as  
they are accessible for everyone.

J


*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
] *On Behalf Of *Fuji kusaka

*Sent:* 13 June 2008 05:23
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?

Hi

The best way is to encrypt the email address and make use of a js.  
This will avoid loads of problems specially spamming.


This is simple just follow the instructions here

http://jumk.de/nospam/stopspam.html


Fuji


On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:22 AM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:


  This is one of the thing I can't decide. At time, it seemed
  nothing wrong to have an email link (js encrypted, not mailto that
  shows email address nakely to Mr. Spam King), but as many people
  are actually using webmail, or sometimes access websites via
  public computer (internet cafe or library for instance), I find
  that having email link actually is causing usability for users.

  When client insists on having direct email link. What do you do so
  that it won't cause problem for above users?

  Thanks!

  tee



   
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Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?

2008-06-16 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Standards freaks are not against JavaScript, please pay attention there.

But Standardistas DO want sites to have a useful option available for  
people who have javascript turned off so THEY can contact you as well.


So providing a server side form for people with Javascript turned off   
would be a useful gracefully degraded JavaScript option.


Why was this solution not an option?

BTW: which javascript solution did you try that you can recommend?

Joe

On Jun 16, 2008, at 11:58, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

My 2 cents: I'm one of those standards freaks. But when my clients  
became overwhelmed with SPAM from their contact forms I had to bend  
the rules. And when I say overwhelmed I'm talking about several  
hundred SPAM emails for every one or two legitimate inquiries. I  
tried many standards compliant anti-SPAM techniques but the  
SPAMmers always found a way around them.


Then I used JavaScript. It worked. It's still working. Not one  
single SPAM has gotten through in over two years.


One could argue that JavaScript renders the contact form unusable  
for five percent of the population. But without it, the SPAMmers  
would render it unusable for a hundred percent of the population. My  
clients aren't going to sift through hundreds of emails to find the  
needle in the haystack. I wouldn't either.


It's not possible to make everyone happy. Use your best judgment.

-- Marcello :-)



---Original Message---
From: Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?
Sent: Jun 16 '08 10:18

Michael,

What if JavaScript isn't enabled or available on my smartphone? I  
presume your websites are not for people accessing the web while on  
the move, as well as people whose preference or requirement is to  
use a web client without JavaScript.


These standard[s] freaks you seem to think so little of *are*  
trying to make the web a better place for users - by levelling the  
playing field, making things fairer and ensuring we all stick to  
the same high standards. You can choose not to do that which is  
fine by me - my websites will gladly accept the visitors (and  
customers) who can't use yours.


Chris



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Persson

Sent: 16 June 2008 10:53
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?


The best way is a form that also has a secure SPAM code or just  
make a image

that search engines cannot read...

I believe that people that does not have Javascript working are not
using internet
for the purpose i produce websites for, and im sorry we cant accept  
all

kind of users.
Also users has to follow the standard where website production also  
is

based in
the clients need and NOT on web standards.

Standard freaks are trying to make things better for web standards  
and

not for the clients
or visitors in general...

There is a war and it will always be there until understanding  
from

all parts are met.

Michael



James Leslie wrote:

Why is this the best way? It means that anyone without JavaScript
enabled cannot contact you. Spam is a pain, but not giving a user  
the

basic opportunity of contacting you is a bigger problem IMO.
I think mailto's and spam filters are the best way to go, as they
are accessible for everyone.

J


*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Fuji kusaka
*Sent:* 13 June 2008 05:23
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?

Hi

The best way is to encrypt the email address and make use of a js.
This will avoid loads of problems specially spamming.

This is simple just follow the instructions here

http://jumk.de/nospam/stopspam.html


Fuji


On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:22 AM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   This is one of the thing I can't decide. At time, it seemed
   nothing wrong to have an email link (js encrypted, not mailto  
that

   shows email address nakely to Mr. Spam King), but as many people
   are actually using webmail, or sometimes access websites via
   public computer (internet cafe or library for instance), I find
   that having email link actually is causing usability for users.

   When client insists on having direct email link. What do you do  
so

   that it won't cause problem for above users?

   Thanks!

   tee




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Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?

2008-06-16 Thread Joseph Ortenzi


On Jun 16, 2008, at 13:08, Michael Persson wrote:


Thanks Chris,

These options are like the options of what size your website should  
have, and depending
on the target group your client have no idea for these technical  
matters as well as web standards.


You should have a target display size, even if they do not know what  
has occurred previously, that's part of your job. You can make an  
educated guess based on other sites or published information from  
places like the NN/Group or other websites.


I am working to make internet a more accessible place to use from  
any device
but im also a realist and i see that clients dont care to pay for my  
experience or expertise
and have not any interest in paying for something they do not  
understand or

have no idea how to use.
Doesn't sound like you are making your sites accessible, sounded like  
you wanted to avoid that goal. It is your job to
help them understand why standards are good, therefore you need to  
understand this yourself.


http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

Are you willing to work 3 days extra for each project to implement  
the usability / accessibility
regulations in order to follow the web standard in order to create a  
better website that the client will not

pay for or even understand what they are paying for...??
The whole point of coding to standards is writing good code in the  
first place. you should not be adding time to your project, just  
writing it properly in the fist place.

Then Chris you are my god of web development really impressive!!
There are many Gods on this list. But they aren't gods, just people  
who try to do their best. You can be one too! ;-)



Michael




Chris Taylor wrote:

Michael,

What if JavaScript isn't enabled or available on my smartphone? I  
presume your websites are not for people accessing the web while on  
the move, as well as people whose preference or requirement is to  
use a web client without JavaScript.


These standard[s] freaks you seem to think so little of *are*  
trying to make the web a better place for users - by levelling the  
playing field, making things fairer and ensuring we all stick to  
the same high standards. You can choose not to do that which is  
fine by me - my websites will gladly accept the visitors (and  
customers) who can't use yours.


Chris



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Persson

Sent: 16 June 2008 10:53
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?


The best way is a form that also has a secure SPAM code or just  
make a image

that search engines cannot read...

I believe that people that does not have Javascript working are not
using internet
for the purpose i produce websites for, and im sorry we cant accept  
all

kind of users.
Also users has to follow the standard where website production also  
is

based in
the clients need and NOT on web standards.

Standard freaks are trying to make things better for web standards  
and

not for the clients
or visitors in general...

There is a war and it will always be there until understanding  
from

all parts are met.

Michael



James Leslie wrote:


Why is this the best way? It means that anyone without JavaScript
enabled cannot contact you. Spam is a pain, but not giving a user  
the

basic opportunity of contacting you is a bigger problem IMO.
I think mailto's and spam filters are the best way to go, as they
are accessible for everyone.

J


*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Fuji kusaka
*Sent:* 13 June 2008 05:23
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?

Hi

The best way is to encrypt the email address and make use of a js.
This will avoid loads of problems specially spamming.

This is simple just follow the instructions here

http://jumk.de/nospam/stopspam.html


Fuji


On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:22 AM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   This is one of the thing I can't decide. At time, it seemed
   nothing wrong to have an email link (js encrypted, not mailto  
that

   shows email address nakely to Mr. Spam King), but as many people
   are actually using webmail, or sometimes access websites via
   public computer (internet cafe or library for instance), I find
   that having email link actually is causing usability for users.

   When client insists on having direct email link. What do you do  
so

   that it won't cause problem for above users?

   Thanks!

   tee




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Re: [WSG] MA in web development

2008-06-12 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

I agree TW.

A good course teaches you to fish, to borrow from the ancient adage.  
therefore html 4/5 is a non-issue.


Therefore any current course would include the complete understanding  
of BOTH current and emerging standards and any good student and  
practitioner will constantly be remaining aware of progress.


As for web _design_, this ALREADY includes: information architecture,  
wireframing, user-centred design research and implementation,  
prototyping accessibility and usability, as well as colour, layout,  
aesthetics.


design is not just appearance, it is also engineering, architecture  
and usability.



On Jun 12, 2008, at 11:10, Theresa Weber wrote:

I disagree - all knowledge that you learn in a course becomes  
outdated but you gain skills that allow you to continue to learn.   
Learning how to write valid and accessible HTML is a skill that can  
be taught and the graduate will then continue to improve and upgrade  
those skills as newer standards standards are released.


I liked the list that Andreas suggested.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery

Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 5:30 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] MA in web development

Personally I would see a course in Web Design pointless.

I am doing Computer Science, but with Computer Science the  
foundations tend to rarley change. If you set up a Masters in Web  
Design it's likley it would become invalid after a while, especially  
when HTML 5 and CSS 3 replace the current HTML and CSS.


If it's purley in design then it should cover usability,  
accessiblity, aesthetics, design blah blah. The stuff that is  
unlikley to change.


Personally though I would focus on Computer Science and if i wanted  
to be good at design take up a course in Art or Graphic Design. At  
least that way you can use your skills more widely.


James

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Kevin Lennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

aboehmer wrote:


It could contain a pile of subjects, depending on how far you want  
to take it. Here just some ideas:


HTML/CSS
Multimedia (Video, Flash, Podcasts, etc)
Basics in Programming (PHP/VB, etc)
Usability
Accessibility
Search Engine Optimisation
Basics in Graphic Design (Photoshop, Illustrator, etc)
Introduction to Networks/Hosting environments

You could even chuck in some electives of Business subjects.  
Masters students would probably want to get their head around  
Project Management as well...?


Hope this helps.

Andreas.


-Original message-
From: Jason Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:30:36 +1000
To: wsg wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] MA in web development



Hello everyone,

Last night a proposal has been hinted at me to put together an MA  
course in
web development for a UK University. That's all I have been told  
so far.


I was wondering what people were feeling such a course ought to  
contain.


I have my views of course, but would not like to influence the  
feedback at

this point.

All suggestions are very much appreciated.

Regards,

Jason Grant
www.flexewebs.com/semantix



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Andreas Boehmer
User Experience Consultant

Addictive Media
Phone: (03) 9386 8907
Mobile: 0411 097 038
http://www.addictivemedia.com.au
Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development




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I am currently enrolled in a Web Design and Interactive Media BS  
degree program. I have been teaching myself for almost 4 years at  
home intensively prior to going into this venture. I have to say  
that is offering this degree is teaching its students many things  
that are not compliant with the international standards in general.


The fact of the matter is that I believe that the entire school is  
in it for the money more thne teaching the students the right  and  
professional way to be a web designer and developer. As far as  
curriculum goes be sure they teach the standards or dont get  
involved at all.First off. Secondly I would suggest that you include  
a few server side programming languages like PHP and JSP. Be sure to  
also cover in depth DBMS as well.


Other universities such as the University of Scranton offer MS  
degrees in Software Engineering which you may get some ideas from as  
well.


http://academic.scranton.edu/department/gradsch/gsofteng.htm

Hope that helps. I know after reading that I have decided to quit my  
current 

[WSG] Job posting

2008-06-03 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Hope this is not OT!

My parent company, Hoop Associates, are looking for a standards-savvy  
Digital Project Manager and a LAMP Web Developer to complement our  
expanding digital team.


Full details here: http://www.thisishoop.com/careers

Thank You
==
Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] Embed a flash file 100%

2008-05-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

nonsense!

You needn't use JS for this as it can be done without JS.

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/

Joe

On May 13, 2008, at 08:55, Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd wrote:


Hi Laert,
Try this

div id=flashcontent

   strongYou need to upgrade your Flash Player/strong
   This is replaced by the Flash content.
   Place your alternate content here and users without  
the Flash plugin or with
   Javascript turned off will see this. Content here  
allows you to leave out codenoscript/code
   tags. Include a link to a href=fullpage.html? 
detectflash=falsebypass the detection/a if you wish.

/div

script type=text/javascript
   // ![CDATA[

   var so = new SWFObject(main.swf, main, 100%,  
100%, 8, #ff);
   so.addVariable(flashVarText, this is passed in via  
FlashVars for example only);

   so.addParam(scale, scale);
   so.addParam(quality, high);
   so.addParam(wmode, transparent);
   so.write(flashcontent);

   // ]]
/script


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Laert Jansen

Sent: 13 May 2008 02:58
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Embed a flash file 100%

I´ve already set the height to 100%. The flash file is 778 x 560 px
I can´t find out why that white area is showing on the top.

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Michael Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:


Hi Laert,

I suggest you make it higher in order to fit 1024 768 screen in  
order to
eliminate the gap... im not a flash expert but I have published many  
sites

that are full size...

im using this, might make a difference

html, body {
   height: 100%;
   font-family:verdana;
}

michael


 :) thanks

 On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 2:09 PM, James Jeffery 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I had a quick peek but im having problems with this browser at  
college

 so
 i can't help until i get home

 Nice site btw.

 On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Laert Jansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


 wrote:

  Hey, thanks a lot. Here´s what I´m working on
  http://www.laertjansen.com/zecafreitas/
 
  Would you mind to take a look? :) I have a problem. The flash  
is the
  black portion only and it should be at the top...I mean, there  
should

 not
  exist that white area.any ideia of what am I doing wrong?
 
  thanks a lot
 
  On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 4:11 PM, James Jeffery 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   SWFObject is currently the best way to go about embedding  
flash.

  
   On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Michael Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


   wrote:
  
   
Hi Laert,
   
have a look at www.staff-jeans.com where I have a full  
flash site

wit ha
full flash independent on the screen size...
   
Michael
   
   
 Hello everyone.

 well, I´d like to know what´s the right way to embed a  
flash

 file
into the
 html without tables. The flash file is 100% width and  
height.


 Thanks a lot

 Laert

 --
 Laert Jansen
 www.laertjansen.com



 
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  --
  Laert Jansen
  www.laertjansen.com
 
   
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 --
 Laert Jansen
 www.laertjansen.com


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Re: [WSG] a list apart expired

2008-05-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Not from here it hasn't


whois results:

Domain Name: ALISTAPART.COM
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com
Name Server: NS1.PENDINGRENEWALDELETION.COM
Name Server: NS2.PENDINGRENEWALDELETION.COM
Status: clientTransferProhibited
Updated Date: 13-may-2008
Creation Date: 07-may-1998
Expiration Date: 06-may-2009


On May 13, 2008, at 11:55, Francisco Antunes wrote:


Can someone who know Zeldman let him know that the domain is expired:
http://www.alistapart.com/

Cheers,

Francisco.


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Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] Definition lists for testimonials

2008-05-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

how about using the  blockquote  cite attribute?

http://brainstormsandraves.com/articles/semantics/structure/

They mention using cite for a url (or email link) and title for the  
details.


seems to be compliant to me...




On May 13, 2008, at 16:31, Rick Lecoat wrote:


On 5 May 2008, at 19:04, Thierry Koblentz wrote:


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
] On

Behalf Of Rick Lecoat
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:26 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Definition lists for testimonials

Hi, I need to mark up a list of client testimonials. At first I was
going to do it with a UL but then I thought about the multi-part
nature of each 'item' (Client's quote, client's name, client's
company) and figured that a definition list might be a better  
option.

My only reservation about that is the fact that by using the
established structure:

dl
dt client's quote /dt
dd client's name /dd
dd client's company /dd
/dl


I think you're missing an important element: blockquote
but then it won't be allowed in a DT


Hi, just returning to this issue. Thierry, I had actually com to the  
same blockquote conclusion, and my solution last week to a list of  
testimonials was this:


div#testimonials
  ul
 li
blockquote
   p
   p.clientName
   p.clientCompany
/blockquote
 /li
 li
blockquote
   p
   p.clientName
   p.clientCompany
/blockquote
 /li
  /ul
/div

(that's simplified, obviously).

I'm going back over my markup to see if I can streamline it, and I'm  
wondering if the ul/li structure is needed. On the one hand it *is*  
semantically a list -- it's a list of testimonials after all. On the  
other hand a series of blockquotes wrapped in a div is much neater  
and less busy.


My question to the panel is: do you think that the unordered list  
markup is required semantically?


Cheers;
--
Rick Lecoat



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[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

2008-04-29 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
Most of what I've seen people put into ActiveX and .NET can be done  
otherwise by clever developers and still be standards compliant or at  
least, cross-browser-compliant.


If you need to write proprietary code that is browser specific you are  
not adhering to web standards. either it is important or it isn't, no  
fence-sitting allowed..



On Apr 29, 2008, at 17:19, Andrew Maben wrote:


On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:22 AM, James Jeffery wrote:

What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a  
feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla?


Alas, all too many... can you say ActiveX? how about .NET?  
Whatcha gonna do when boss/client demands some glitzy gizmo found on  
some IE-only site? I mean universal access is a wonderful ideal, but  
let's face it, it's still a pretty hard sell.


And to be fair, M$ has put forward the occasional useful innovation...

Andrew






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Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] seo / standards question

2008-04-14 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

but it makes sense to make sense! ;-)

worth the effort


On Apr 14, 2008, at 10:17, kevin mcmonagle wrote:

That makes good sense Matijs but it would take some work to get my  
cms to do that.

Maybe a dl would be the best comprimise?
Is there a huge difference between using that structure and a  
definition list?


-thanks
kevin

Matijs wrote:

I'd go for nested lists

ul
   liheading 1
   ul
   liitem 1/li
   ...
   /ul
   /li
   liheading 2
   ul

etc...

And use h's where they are actual headings like Dave Woods suggested.

Gr.

Matijs

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:


   list



   On Apr 09, 2008, at 14:36, kevin mcmonagle wrote:

   hi,
   im generating a list of page links from my cms, its not really
   for a nav bar just a section of the site that has a number of
   related articles.

   im  using h2 for the over all list label but am wondering what
   to use for the list break tags.

   right now im using li with the title of each page like this.


   h2section title/h2
   ul
   liapage name 1/a/li
   liapage name 2/a/li
   ...
   /ul



   but im wondering if i should use h2's instead?

   would google give more importance to the h2s?
   plus it really is a list of page  headings so i guess
   semantically it could go either way right?


   so either:
   h2section title/h2

   h3apage name/a/h3
   h3apage name2/a/h3
   ...


   thanks in advance


   -kevin mcmonagle

   www.mcmonagledesign.com http://www.mcmonagledesign.com
   www.donegalimage.com http://www.donegalimage.com










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[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] need some help

2008-04-11 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Generally, yes, but not necessarily.
Can I see some links?

On Apr 11, 2008, at 06:53, John Horner wrote:


Does the coder need to be in London?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi
Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2008 10:00 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] need some help

Hi All London Standardistas!

Hope this little job request is agreeable to the list.

I need some quick template creation help (paid) for 2-3 days next week
possibly. Anyone got some time available?
You need to be a whizz at fully-compliant XHTML/CSS and modifying a
basic template to several (6) different variations.
My deadline got squeezed and I need my OOP coders concentrating on the
back-end and interface functionality.
==
Joe Ortenzi
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Re: [WSG] need some help

2008-04-11 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
well, no slicing as it must be crafted out of Xhtml according to  
existing plans

design is already done.

On Apr 10, 2008, at 21:28, Spirit Q.9 Gaming wrote:


Hi Joe,

Just slice xhtml or must design and slice?

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Максим Косак  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Sorry man, i'm too busy

2008/4/10, Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Hi All London Standardistas!

Hope this little job request is agreeable to the list.

I need some quick template creation help (paid) for 2-3 days next  
week possibly. Anyone got some time available?
You need to be a whizz at fully-compliant XHTML/CSS and modifying a  
basic template to several (6) different variations.
My deadline got squeezed and I need my OOP coders concentrating on  
the back-end and interface functionality.

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--
http://spirit.q9-gaming.com/en/
Spirit's Inside: Blog  Design
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Re: [WSG] Standard for committing changes to a database?

2008-04-11 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

who is your target audience?

If they are basic desktop users and not technical, then you want to  
use language they understand rather than the technical language.


Commit changes is too technical, and you should never mix the  
commits in any one view. I like the Save changes suggestion.


by:

In some places, changes are committed as soon as you enter them, a  
bit

like how Microsoft Access operates. In other places, the user has to
specifically save to commit changes, like MYOB.


Are you saying these differences are on one page or view or in  
different pages or views?


Personally, I would be pretty pissed off if, while editing a record,  
some items commit instantly and others only commit on save. The  
instant commits would make me think the others were instant too and/or  
the on save commits would make me think my changes would commit only  
after the save. If you mix things up like this you need to be pretty  
clear some are destructive and others less so.


If you were to do this you would definitely need to have a revert  
function that takes the record completely back to where it was before  
any changes were carried out.


I agree with Elizabeth in that you should let people modify their view/ 
page before any commit.


Joe


On Apr 11, 2008, at 04:33, Elizabeth Spiegel wrote:


Hi Jessica

As a user, I am really annoyed by applications that don't work  
consistently
- they're much harder to learn (at work I have to use one that  
labels the

same tool a 'Power search' in one place and an 'Advanced search' in
another).

I would prefer to see a 'save changes' button (or similar) as the  
consistent
approach - it provides an opportunity to review before you save  
something

awful.

Elizabeth
Web editor
www.spiegelweb.com.au

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Jessica Enders
Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2008 11:38 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Standard for committing changes to a database?

Hi everyone

I am currently reviewing a desktop application that involves mostly  
viewing

and changing records in a database (via a nice GUI front end).

In some places, changes are committed as soon as you enter them, a  
bit

like how Microsoft Access operates. In other places, the user has to
specifically save to commit changes, like MYOB.

Any opinions on when one approach should be used over the other and  
whether

the inconsistency matters?

Thanks in anticipation,


Jessica Enders
Director
Formulate Information Design

http://formulate.com.au

Phone: (02) 6116 8765
Fax: (02) 8456 5916
PO Box 5108
Braddon ACT 2612




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Re: [WSG] Dreamweaver8

2008-04-10 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
for RegEx, grep searches as described here on the Mac, try BBEdit or  
Textmate, or the free Text Wrangler.



On Apr 10, 2008, at 02:05, Michael MD wrote:






one thing I
miss about dreamweaver is that you can do a 'search all' and
get a list of all instances of the thing you are searching for
rather than cycling through a 'find...find...find...'
list. So far it's the only program I've used that does that
and I really notice not having it.



My favourite general-purpose text editor is UltraEdit, which does  
what
you describe: returns a list of files containg your search string,  
and

the entire line(s) that contain that string. It's not a web-specific
tool, but does beat everything else I have tried to date.



Sounds interesting - I'll check it out.


Normally I use grep for searching in multiple files (returns a list of
matching files and lines) - nothing else I've seen is faster than this
classic unix command-line tool (windows users: there are windows  
versions of
it - or you can install cygwin, which comes with it. Mac OSX users  
probably

already have it!)

.. but yes ... it would be nice to be able to do this kind of thing  
without
leaving my text editor... some kind of regex search/replace would be  
nice

too!

(but for me to use it in the real world it must start up quickly - I'm
impatient! :)






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[WSG] need some help

2008-04-10 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Hi All London Standardistas!

Hope this little job request is agreeable to the list.

I need some quick template creation help (paid) for 2-3 days next week  
possibly. Anyone got some time available?
You need to be a whizz at fully-compliant XHTML/CSS and modifying a  
basic template to several (6) different variations.
My deadline got squeezed and I need my OOP coders concentrating on the  
back-end and interface functionality.

==
Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] seo / standards question

2008-04-09 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

list


On Apr 09, 2008, at 14:36, kevin mcmonagle wrote:


hi,
im generating a list of page links from my cms, its not really for a  
nav bar just a section of the site that has a number of related  
articles.


im  using h2 for the over all list label but am wondering what to  
use for the list break tags.


right now im using li with the title of each page like this.


h2section title/h2
ul
liapage name 1/a/li
liapage name 2/a/li
...
/ul



but im wondering if i should use h2's instead?

would google give more importance to the h2s?
plus it really is a list of page  headings so i guess semantically  
it could go either way right?



so either:
h2section title/h2

h3apage name/a/h3
h3apage name2/a/h3
...


thanks in advance


-kevin mcmonagle

www.mcmonagledesign.com
www.donegalimage.com








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Re: [WSG] Client cannot view website

2008-04-08 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

broken HTML

rule one: verify the HTML/CSS as any problems are usually in there:


body id=facilities
div id=container
div id=header/div

Hope this helps.

joe


On Apr 08, 2008, at 16:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Hi Lyn,

I can see all the pages except facilities.html jumps out of frame  
and the pale green background disappears using IE 7 rest of site  
seems ok


All works well in FireFox and Netscape.. So it seems you have a  
problem with your header or css which could be causing it not to  
work correctly with IE 6


Regards

Dave...
- Original Message -
From: Lynette Smith
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:00 AM
Subject: [WSG] Client cannot view website

I hope this post is allowed. Just had a call from a client to say he  
cannot see all of his website.  He does not seem very computer  
literate.  He says he can see the first bit ( header and the  
navigation bar underneath the header),  but below is just a green  
blank page.


I can see nothing wrong with the site which has been up for ages and  
am thinking it is his computer though I have no idea what could be  
wrong.  He uses IE.


Is there anything I can get him to check.. Url is www.bourkebridgeinn.com.au

Thanks

Lyn
www.westernwebdesign.com.au

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Re: [WSG] Best password strength indicator?

2008-03-27 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

tried moo tools or JQuery?

Joe

On Mar 27, 2008, at 09:37, Sigurd Magnusson wrote:

Am looking for an intuitive and elegant example of a password field  
with an strength indicator that updates as you type each character.


I've seen plenty around, and off the top of my head I quite like  
Google's* (although I'd say it should show small amount of red graph  
to begin with, portraying instantly that the line is a strength  
indicator).

* https://www.google.com/accounts/NewAccount

Can anyone let me know if there's one they feel is significantly  
better than that? I'm keen for one that is compact. Some are over  
the top and make the user have to think an unnecessarily extra amount.


For instance, this MSN one contains intuitive elements but is  
cluttered with too much instruction.
https://accountservices.passport.net/reg.srf? 
roid=2sl=1vv=400lc=1033



Sigurd Magnusson,
SilverStripe






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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

2008-03-27 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

is it on this page?

http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/


On Mar 27, 2008, at 12:47, dwain wrote:

with my haslayout problem, the div around the pictures shrink  
wrapped while the nav div, containing a ul, and along with the ul  
sized to 100% of the wrapper.

dwain

On 3/27/08, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Please clarify dwain.

have you got two examples, one shrink-wrapping (??) the other not?

Do you mean one div will only be as large as the content within it  
and the other will retain a fixed size regardless of content?


Joe
On Mar 27 2008, at 05:07, dwain wrote:
after my experience tonight i was wondering why some divs will  
shrink wrap their contents while others don't.  any takers?


dwain

--
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky
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www.joiz.com



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dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky
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Re: [WSG] ie7 and firefox

2008-03-25 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

or maybe your border attribute needs a diaper? ;-)


#formdivtext{
border:1px #BCBCBC soild;
margin-right:2px;
}


Joe

On Mar 25, 2008, at 13:22, Kyle Hudson wrote:


Try resetting your page with an example such as:

* {
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
line-height: 1.25px;
}

etc.

Also is your  browser in standards or quirks mode?

You gave a brief description and no XHTML, this may help us more.

Kyle

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]@R KULEKCÝ

Sent: 25 March 2008 13:06
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] ie7 and firefox

i have a search form and

#formdiv{
 text-align:right;
 padding:3px;
 padding-right:4px;
}

#formdivtext{
border:1px #BCBCBC soild;
margin-right:2px;
}


my css file is this.
But in ie7 form height is very big but in firefox height is suitable  
for my claim!

what can i do to organize it?

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Re: [WSG] Flash on top of Flash

2008-03-03 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
I agree. I thought having a main menu in Flash is not compliant with  
Web Standards.


Why must your navigation be in Flash?


On Feb 29, 2008, at 09:14, Breton Slivka wrote:

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Anthony Milner  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi,

I have two flash files - 1 contains a flash menu the other contains  
an

animation. We are trying to position them on top of each other...



I don't know, I might be mistaken, but given that this is the web
standards group mailing list, I thought we were supposed to discourage
this sort of behavior.

You could solve all kinds of problems by just not having a flash menu
to begin with.


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Re: [WSG] Where did I come from?

2008-01-18 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

But why?
everyone knows about the back button, don't they? So you don't really  
need to help them. And if the previous site was yours and you want to  
see if they went from your site A to your site B then you could  
probably do this with sessions or by passing a variable forward  
through the link using a server-side language like ASP or PHP.


If all you want to do is allow them to go back to where they were  
before they came to you, tell them about the back button in their  
browser.


One option is to set up Google Analytics on the site, so you can see  
the referrers without any messy coding, otherwise, it's really none of  
your business is it?


You could create a function on all of your pages that, if they have  
never been there before and don't have your cookie, to ask them where  
they came from and show them their back button, but really, it isn't  
any of your business.


So I suppose the web Standards part of this question is about polite  
behaviour?


Joe


On Jan 18, 2008, at 14:24, Simon Cockayne wrote:


Hi,

I am on a webpage...how do I know what page the browser was  
previously showing.


I think Javascript History object is the ticket...but STRICT mode in  
Firefox seems to tell me that I don't have permission to access it.


NOTE: I don't want to use the History object to go back or  
forward...I just want to know what the previous page was...so I can  
create a button to go back to it...


Cheers,

Simon



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Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers

2008-01-15 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
There is no need to style the forms strongly but you can try to  
explicitly coax the style to be more uniform by applying CSS  
intelligently.
BTW: Buttons should be buttons and not an obscure graphic acting as a  
link or calling JavaScript.


If you keep your head on your shoulders there should be little problem  
with subtle form styling.


Joe

On Jan 14, 2008, at 13:42, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:


With respect to form elements, I believe you will find that what the  
proper Mac browsers do is perfectly 'legal'. What is more, Windows  
users don't generally appreciate it when form elements are styled so  
strongly that they are no longer recognisable, which is why so many  
usability (and I don't mean accessibility) guru's advice is: don't  
do it.


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Re: [WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page

2007-11-20 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

safari 3 on 10.4.11 is ok though... matches what I see in firefox


On Nov 20, 2007, at 13:27, Andrew Maben wrote:


There was a note on Macintouch about this page:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/renew/renew_833.html

Safari 2.0.4 on Mac OS 10.4.10 shows a blank page, but viewing page  
source is quite interesting - anyone care to comment?



Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.




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Re: [WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page

2007-11-20 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

personally, I expect US and UK government sites to fail validation
;-)

On Nov 20, 2007, at 15:46, Andrew Maben wrote:

My point was not that there are environments in which it works, but  
the fact that a government page is totally inaccessible in Safari  
2.0.4 on Mac OS 10.4.10.  The comments I'd hoped to provoke would  
refer to the coding practices resulting in the interesting page  
source vis a vis web standards...


Andrew

On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Crocker Ryan (rc) wrote:


Looks good in IE 6  IE 7 also.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:23 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page

safari 3 on 10.4.11 is ok though... matches what I see in firefox

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Re: [WSG] Invisible US Passport renewal page

2007-11-20 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

hmm...
base href=http://www.um.dk/CMS.Web/Templates/Front%20Pages/ 
FrontPage.aspx/


empty spans, empty p tags, table structure where not necessary...

half-hearted I'd say.

On Nov 20, 2007, at 17:33, Kim Kruse wrote:

Well the Danish foreign ministry http://www.um.dk/en passes html  
validation. The guys that build it obviously wanted it to validate  
(look at the comments) but that didn't make it accessible or more  
usable.



Joseph Ortenzi skrev:
personally, I expect US and UK government sites to fail  
validation

;-)




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Re: [WSG] London Meetup for people interested in an informal discussion around web standards

2007-10-12 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Thanks Nick, etc.

So sounds like the Web Standards London is allied (loosely!) with Web  
Standards group (webstandardsgroup.org),


Web Standards London likes  structured lectures followed by beer

Pub Standards is developers talking about beer, with some Standards talk

Web Standards Meetup London talks about web standards with beer and  
wine and cola or coffee in attendance.


Sounds like plenty of room for everyone here. Anyone mind if I  
progress with gettingt attention for the group I just started (Web  
Standards Meetup London)?


On Oct 11, 2007, at 12:00, Ross Bruniges wrote:


Heya guys,

Just to confirm that Pub Standards is not the only web standards  
meet-ups and going the list will only get you messages about pub  
standards events - nothing else. The mailer is also specifically  
for Beer related talk - though from time to time web standards is  
mentioned


If you are looking for speakers and presentations then pub  
standards is not for you - it is really all about the beer and just  
a coincidence that everyone who attends are web devs ;


For general meet-ups with presentations and such (like Geek Dinners  
or things similar) then it really is best to just keep a close eye  
on upcoming.yahoo.com for things as they pop up from time to time -  
you will also get a good idea of who to follow so that you can see  
when things are occuring as they say they are attending or watching.


By all means please come to pub standards, its a hell of a lot of  
fun but don't expect to learn too much :


- Original Message 
From: Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, 11 October, 2007 11:20:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] London Meetup for people interested in an  
informal discussion around web standards


On 11 Oct 2007, at 10:58, Joseph Ortenzi wrote:


Thanks Karl, but the pubstandards group appears to have withered
away and died, unfortunately. at least the UK one.



Erm...
http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/290703/

Next pubstandards UK meetup is next Thursday :-)

HTH,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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[WSG] London meeting

2007-10-11 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Can someone in the London group help clarify something for me?

I joined the WSG and found that there were no events scheduled for  
London since July 06.
I subsequently discover there have been several interesting events in  
London, but  no notice at all in the WSG events calendar.
The last page I found for the WSG London meetings (http:// 
muffinresearch.co.uk/wsg/) asks me to join the WSG list but I am  
wondering why join the WSG list for London meetings if they do not  
post them on the WSG site?


Can I know why WSGLondon do not make use of the WSG list? I have  
started an informal discussion group for London and would really like  
to help support the more structured WSGL presentations with a monthly  
discussion group, and possibly some planning and organising  
assistance but cannot get a hold of any WSGL people.


Are you out there, people?

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Re: [WSG] London Meetup for people interested in an informal discussion around web standards

2007-10-11 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
Thanks Karl, but the pubstandards group appears to have withered  
away and died, unfortunately. at least the UK one.


On Oct 10, 2007, at 23:56, Karl Lurman wrote:


Joe,

Great to see gatherings of like-minded folk all over the place. As a
side note, have you heard about Pubstandards UK?

http://www.pubstandards.co.uk/

Website has kind of died off, but they have a mailing list that has
updates on meetings (Generally something on every week or so from what
I hear, with Sub-standards). Some very interesting webby people get
involved...

For Australian Melbournites, there is also Pubstandards:

http://www.pubstandards.org

Karl



On 10/9/07, Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

For the Attention of those of you in London, UK.

WS Meetup London Group

I hope this isn't an infringement of the mailing list. Apologies  
if I got it
wrong. Sorry for the short notice but there has been a bit of an  
internal

debate on the merits of letting you all know about this.

For those of you who are not aware, there is a site called Meetup  
dot com
that allows people to create a regular group meeting among people  
who wish
to meet and discuss a topic. anything from books, television  
programs,
games, etc. whatever your interests it helps you find others then  
start a
group. For the past year or so there have been over 100 people who  
expressed
an interest in joining a Web Standards Meetup Group and I managed  
to get a

few dozen interested in joining these past weeks.

There will be an inagural meeting of the Web Standards London  
Meetup Group
TONIGHT for anyone interested in discussing issues around  
implementing Web

Standards.
This is in no way connected to WASP or Web Standards Group dot org  
and arose

from my experiences in various meetups around London.

The aim of this meetup is to have informal discussions or very short
presentations (15 mins max) in a pub or coffee-house and to open  
the floor
to informal discussions, support, sharing and commiserate. If  
possible I
would very much like to help promote the WSG London branch through  
this.
They don't seem to be posting their events on the  
webstandardsgroup.org site
since July 2006, even though you get to join the London branch by  
joining

WSG.org.

Please visit: http://webstandards.meetup.com/130/ if you
are interested in joining this group, which, as some have  
mentioned in the

discussion, is not designed to supplant but instead to compliment the
existing WSG.org. London group.

http://webstandards.meetup.com/130/


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[WSG] London Meetup for people interested in an informal discussion around web standards

2007-10-09 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

For the Attention of those of you in London, UK.

WS Meetup London Group

I hope this isn't an infringement of the mailing list. Apologies if I  
got it wrong. Sorry for the short notice but there has been a bit of  
an internal debate on the merits of letting you all know about this.


For those of you who are not aware, there is a site called Meetup dot  
com that allows people to create a regular group meeting among people  
who wish to meet and discuss a topic. anything from books, television  
programs, games, etc. whatever your interests it helps you find  
others then start a group. For the past year or so there have been  
over 100 people who expressed an interest in joining a Web Standards  
Meetup Group and I managed to get a few dozen interested in joining  
these past weeks.


There will be an inagural meeting of the Web Standards London Meetup  
Group TONIGHT for anyone interested in discussing issues around  
implementing Web Standards.
This is in no way connected to WASP or Web Standards Group dot org  
and arose from my experiences in various meetups around London.


The aim of this meetup is to have informal discussions or very short  
presentations (15 mins max) in a pub or coffee-house and to open the  
floor to informal discussions, support, sharing and commiserate. If  
possible I would very much like to help promote the WSG London branch  
through this. They don't seem to be posting their events on the  
webstandardsgroup.org site since July 2006, even though you get to  
join the London branch by joining WSG.org.


Please visit: http://webstandards.meetup.com/130/ if you are  
interested in joining this group, which, as some have mentioned in  
the discussion, is not designed to supplant but instead to compliment  
the existing WSG.org. London group.


http://webstandards.meetup.com/130/

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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-05 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

oops!

Target are not offering a website to help clients. You can bet your  
last penny they have a website to make it easier to reach more  
customers and convince them to spend their money with Traget.


Period!
Don't be so ignorant. There is nothing in Target's behaviour that  
says they want to make life easier for their customers. If ther DID  
they would make it accessible!


sheesh!

They were asked to fix a tiny thing that would be so easy it is  
laughable. they said we don't want to make the site easier to use or  
accessible by a vociferous and disadvantaged group of keen shoppers.
Imagine if target said let's improve the site, make a big deal about  
it and show how we lead the pack in an inclusive society


... yeah I though it was funny too!



On Oct 04, 2007, at 01:40, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:

What Target offer is an additional service to their clients. They  
don’t have to offer a website, they just do it to make it easier  
for their customers (and of course to sell more products).




If they are being sued for having an inaccessible website, they  
might as well turn around and take the site down. That doesn’t help  
anybody.




It’s like suing your local gym for not turning on the volume of the  
TVs they’ve got hanging of their walls. They could do it, it’s easy  
to do, it would make a small group of people happy, but they chose  
not to.




That’s the right of every private company: they can choose what  
services they offer and they can choose in what format those  
services come. If you do not like it, then you go and shop  
somewhere else.




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Green

Sent: Thursday, 4 October 2007 8:11 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard



I think you'll find the people of Tibet didn't build Mount Everest  
and weren't even able to influence its design.




Target chose to design their site the way they did, and a  
professional designer would have known that they were excluding  
some people from using the website. In the face of such wilful or  
ignorant behaviour I believe it is necessary to legislate. Sure  
it's inconvenient to have to worry about people with disabilities  
and incur additional costs to support them, but it's a mark of a  
civilised country that we do. At least where I live.




Steve





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson

Sent: 03 October 2007 22:51
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard


Or do you think that your right to 'do what the hell you like'  
outweighs other people's right to be treated equally?


Be treated equally? They have to CHOOSE to visit the site. So,  
because they want (want need)to do something, others should  
accommodate?


I want to visit the summit of mount everest... I suppose the people  
of tibet should install an escalator just so I can reach the top  
due to my less-then-perfect phisical status. Damn them for not  
allowing me to the summit, I'm going to sue.


Idiocy.

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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
I thought legislature and regulation are constitutionally separate in  
the US?



On Oct 04, 2007, at 06:01, Michael MD wrote:

Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government  
entity should be telling a private business what it must do and  
that includes telling a business
it must provide health coverage, or spend a certain percentage on  
it and what the covereage must include.  If that business accepts  
government monies, then
the ball game changes.  Of course the private businesses should do  
some things,  accessible websites may be one of them but it is not  
the governments job to

force it.


The Target website is probably a case of ignorance in management there
I think the best response to ignorance is education ... not  
lawsuits...


(yes it is probably different if there is government funding  
involved - but even then I think education should be attempted  
first and perhaps accessability could be made part of the  
conditions for getting the funding)





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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
RalphNader legislatively proved that you cannot budget the risks  
involved in the 70's with the famous Ford Pinto debacle.
they forgot to include the bad press or legal challenge when ignoring  
the rights of the community.


On Oct 04, 2007, at 06:24, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:


I really have to wonder just how ignorant Target really is, or was the
decision to implement or act based on a calculated risk. I believe  
many
larger corporations will make some decisions based on the  
probability of the
plan backfiring (or them getting caught) versus the plan's  
profitability.


An example could be a manufacturer faced with a flaw found in their
production. They might weight the risks, even calculate settlement  
amounts
in advance, then look at recall costs... ultimately taking the low  
road. Am

I wary of large corporations? Yes, and government too. I founded a
corporation 15 years ago, a small one, but I have had some exposure  
to some

things that were, well, less than cool I'll say.

Target sort of proved they are in the latter category because they  
were
informed of the problems and the specifics of how to address them,  
yet they
chose not to act. Hindsight may tell them that this was foolish, or  
maybe
they're a really stubborn company. But there may be another  
possibility. Who

knows, maybe they are members of some business club/group/union whose
members begged them to fight it so a precedent wouldn't be set and  
thus they

wouldn't have to act themselves. Just speculation, right?

@Steve Olive:

Some people have mentioned converting books into
Braille and audio formats as too difficult. This is wrong
and there are specific exemptions in copyright legislation
that permit this, without the publishers' express permission.


I was the person stating that copies in Braille are made for  
copyrighted
books in the US (for free, so easy), with the copyright holders  
permission.

Two things you mentioned specifically prompted me to respond:

1) Audio formats.
This is true. It's been a couple of years since I've filled out an
application but if I recall seeing Braille and Phonographs Records  
(if I

recall the terminology). Thanks for reminding me of this.

2) Without the publishers' express permission
I recall seeing a checkbox asking me if it was okay that copies  
in the
above mentioned formats be made. Like I said, it's been a couple of  
years...

is it an automatic conversion that's done with all applicable works
nowadays?

Thanks. Again, sorry to all if this email strays off topic too much.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim



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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Bless you Kat for a very intelligent and reasoned argument.


On Oct 04, 2007, at 09:44, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Quoting Or Golan [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

First things first. I am a complete and total grammar snob; I think  
it is because I see myself as a designer. Punctuation is important,  
as is spacing and capitalisation. They do not hinder you, contrary,  
they promote your argument, as it makes you seem educated and  
reasoned.


This entire thread seems to have lost all proper respect for our  
poor punctuation. It's disgraceful.



Secondly, I agree with Tony. We create a government to create a  
social fabric we are happy with. Are we happy with children being  
exploited, for example, are we happy with children under the age of  
six spending all day in a mine? No? Then we legislate against it,  
and all have to abide by it. That is point of a government.


Accessibility is about recognising everyone's difference. We all  
have differing capabilities and needs. Accessibility is ensuring a  
giving environment where everyone is welcome, regardless of those  
needs. So we legislate accessibility to promote a mannerly  
interaction with other members of our community.




it doesn't mean the law should force them to do it.


What should the law force them to do? How about treating their  
workers carefully? Protecting their safety? What about race? Is it  
OK that some businesses will supply goods and services to some  
races, but not to others? What about gender? Is it OK to  
discriminate based on gender? If you say no to these ideas, why say  
discrimination based on ability is OK?


Yes, there should be moral and legal compulsion, on all, to do the  
correct thing. What sort of community do we want to live in?


As far as I was aware, this is a web standards list, and  
accessibility is but one of the many standards. Those who are pro- 
standards are also pro-accessibility.


Kat



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Re: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
I agree, reading her blog she seems to be a knee-jerk reactionary  
Republican who wants government support when they get shafted and  
government to lay off when others accuse them of shafting.


Someone earlier said she was intelligent - I find little evidence of  
this.



On Oct 04, 2007, at 08:13, John Horner wrote:

There's one thing nobody has mentioned so far, which is Michelle  
Malkin
is what I personally would call an extreme right-winger. She's a  
regular

on Fox News, and she's been compared to Anne Coulter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Malkin

I find the idea that we'll drop her a polite, well-meaning email and
she'll come around to our way of thinking rather unlikely. Our efforts
would be better directed elsewhere.

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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Two mistakes.

As already mentioned, they do, in legislation, need to make the site  
accessible or at least show the attempt to, NOT to say we don't want  
to so we won't.
If they bar people who speak Spanish from the shop they are also  
being discriminatory, both to the Spanish they are barring simply  
because they speak Spanish and to the users of the site because there  
is not a version non-Spanish speakers can use.


YOu keep using examples to support your case that are faulty because  
they ARE legislated ()rightly) against. Barring Spanish-speakers from  
a shop is the same as banning someone from the shop with a whites  
only sign. I am amazed you can't see this!



On Oct 04, 2007, at 08:59, Or Golan wrote:

even if making their site accessible to the blind costs target 0  
dollars and 0 work, even if they need to just flip a button and  
bang - their site is accessible, it doesn't mean the law should  
force them to do it.


what i really don't understand is why did the blind people sued  
target..if target doesn't want to make their site accessible it's  
their right to do it. there is no reason for the government to  
force its will on a private company. you can and you should make  
the stores accessible to everyone, but telling the stores how to  
make their sites is like telling them what services should the  
staff give to the people who come in. it's like Andreas said, the  
company is allowed to choose what service it wants to give to the  
public. if a company doesn't want to make a site, they are allowed  
to. but if they make a site, it doesn't mean they have to make it  
available to everyone. if they choose to make a Spanish site so  
that they won't have to have people who speak spanish in the shop,  
but still be able to sell to the Hispanic community, is it  
discrimination against english-speakers?




On 10/4/07, Karl Lurman  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Russ, time to step in the ring perhaps?

On 10/4/07, Joe Ortenzi  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 yes for an old site I no longer need. but been too busy fixing  
sites that

 people actually need and use.

 fair nuff. you gonna sue me?



 On Oct 3 2007, at 23:33, Chris Wilson wrote:

 If you are going to argue for standards and accesability, follow  
your own
 advice first. Captain table layout over here. You don't even have  
alt tags

 on your images. Hypocritical aren't ya?


 
 
 
 
 
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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

*SIGH*

I know, that JAWS Activex/AD statement floored me, it really did  
How did he get on this list? Might be a newb like me but I though  
he'd know better than that.


This is why it is taking me ages to recruit a LAMP developer who know  
who webstandards.org are and what they are for!


Personally I am seriously entertained by this discussion.

There iss quite a lot of old skool versus new school in this debate,  
alongside the usual political big/small government issue. Good to se  
the new school is in the majority though. But as my Venezuelan  
brother-in-law says, we're preaching to the  
convertible [sic:converted] which is not only poetic but charming!


Anyone want to conclude the thread or is this one going to fly forever?
Joe


On Oct 04, 2007, at 11:21, Rob Crowther wrote:


Mike Brown wrote:
[Mike - see, the problem is this guy is only a part-time web  
developer. If he was full-time, he'd totally have time and be able  
to solve the verbalise the text into every spoken language  
problem.]




The funny thing for me was his later comment - someone else  
mentioned JAWS, he obviously went away and did some 'research', and  
from that concluded that JAWS required a website built with Active  
Directory (the Microsoft network management system) instead of  
standard web technologies.  But the frightening part about it was  
that everyone seemed to take him seriously and value his 'expertise'.


Rob

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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

oops!

Target are not offering a website to help clients. You can bet your  
last penny they have a website to make it easier to reach more  
customers and convince them to spend their money with Traget.

Period!
There is nothing in Target's behaviour that says they want to make  
life easier for their customers. If ther DID they would make it  
accessible!


sheesh!

They were asked to fix a tiny thing that would be so easy to fix  it  
is laughable. They said we don't want to make the site easier to use  
or accessible by a vociferous and disadvantaged group of keen  
shoppers, willing to politely show how it can be done.
Imagine if target said let's improve the site, make a big deal about  
it and show how we lead the pack in an inclusive society


... yeah I though it was funny too!

Target could have been the shop somewhere else leader, if it wanted  
to...


Your analogy, again, fails. we are not saying make the site  
accessible to the blind but painful for the sighted. The opposite in  
fact.


Making the site accessible ADDS to the experience, it does not remove  
pleasure from one group to give it to the other - EVERYONE benefits.
A better analogy would be to supply everyone in the gym with a socket  
in all the machines so they can bring their own headphones and set  
their own volumes, like mine does. WIN-WIN.



On Oct 04, 2007, at 01:40, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:

What Target offer is an additional service to their clients. They  
don’t have to offer a website, they just do it to make it easier  
for their customers (and of course to sell more products).




If they are being sued for having an inaccessible website, they  
might as well turn around and take the site down. That doesn’t help  
anybody.




It’s like suing your local gym for not turning on the volume of the  
TVs they’ve got hanging of their walls. They could do it, it’s easy  
to do, it would make a small group of people happy, but they chose  
not to.




That’s the right of every private company: they can choose what  
services they offer and they can choose in what format those  
services come. If you do not like it, then you go and shop  
somewhere else.




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Green

Sent: Thursday, 4 October 2007 8:11 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard



I think you'll find the people of Tibet didn't build Mount Everest  
and weren't even able to influence its design.




Target chose to design their site the way they did, and a  
professional designer would have known that they were excluding  
some people from using the website. In the face of such wilful or  
ignorant behaviour I believe it is necessary to legislate. Sure  
it's inconvenient to have to worry about people with disabilities  
and incur additional costs to support them, but it's a mark of a  
civilised country that we do. At least where I live.




Steve





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson

Sent: 03 October 2007 22:51
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard


Or do you think that your right to 'do what the hell you like'  
outweighs other people's right to be treated equally?


Be treated equally? They have to CHOOSE to visit the site. So,  
because they want (want need)to do something, others should  
accommodate?


I want to visit the summit of mount everest... I suppose the people  
of tibet should install an escalator just so I can reach the top  
due to my less-then-perfect phisical status. Damn them for not  
allowing me to the summit, I'm going to sue.


Idiocy.

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Joe Ortenzi
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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Sorry I have to disagree some of these points.
Comments among your text 

On Oct 04, 2007, at 01:56, Steve Green wrote:

can anybody help me understand where the idea that accessibility  
costs

money comes from?

It certainly can do depending on the content of your site and the  
target
audience. I would concede that it probably doesn't cost more to  
produce a
standards-compliant static website (i.e. has semantic structure and  
is valid

HTML and CSS) but that is only the first step in making a website
accessible.


...but a very big one IMHO.


We've discussed many examples here, and I encounter them every day  
in our
work. Obvious ones are the provision of captions, transcripts and  
audio

descriptions for multimedia; that does not come cheap.
... but do provide value! And you can easily separate crucial  
information, like a user's manual, from advertising, our widgets are  
20% better than theirs! and prioritise the crucial translations (but  
you KNOW they will prioritise the non-crucial at times don't you ;-))


It is not trivial to accommodate text resizing and screen widths  
ranging

from less than 800px wide to upwards of 1600px while maintaining an
acceptable layout. Especially so if someone else told you what the  
layout

has to be.
A fixed layout solves this and this is not an accessibility issue  
exactly, more a design and usability one.


Converting artwork into accessible code takes more time than  
slicing and
dicing a PhotoShop image. Making interactive content accessible  
(such as

discovery-based e-learning applications) can be seriously challenging.
Yes, but the experience makes the site much better, so it has a  
return on the investment.


And then there's the cost of maintaining the accessibility of a  
site on an

ongoing basis when most CMSs don't enforce the creation of accessible
content. Big sites might have many dozens of content authors, none  
of whom
gives a monkeys about accessibility so you need periodic or ongoing  
testing

and repair to prevent the accessibility from degrading.
we build our own cms's -and cms's can also be hacked if they truly  
are template based. Separation of structure from content os one of  
the cornerstones so you should not be choosing CMS's that won't let  
you do this.




So yes, it often does cost more. These costs may well be offset to  
some
extent by savings and other kinds of benefits but we need to be  
able to
quantify this before we can make sweeping statements that it  
doesn't cost
I remember reading some people putting a cost value on this but  
forget where I read it. You can bet Target have a very clear  
understanding of the value of accessible design right now.

any more.

Steve



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain
Sent: 04 October 2007 00:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

I must be having a stupid attack as I can't find anywhere on the  
site where

I can register and then comment.

As for the left / right -  Accessibility/ Freedom agrument (it doesn't
deserve to be called a debate) it leaves me with the feeling that I  
would
not wish to be trapped in a lift (elevator) or even a medium sized  
country

with most of these people.

All that said; can anybody help me understand where the idea that
accessibility costs money comes from?

Agreed, updating an existing site may cost money, however creating  
a clean
semantic and accessibile site can be done at the same price as a  
nasty old
site and if we all take the semantic thing to heart who knows they  
should be

less expensive than todays sites.

The final puzzle is quite why Target are happy to spend more than they
should simply to discriminate against a significant proportion of  
their

potential market.

Seems plain dumb to me.



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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Please compare like with like.
Target and your local grocery store are not a valid comparison.
target were approached, had the issue politely explained, were shown  
suggestions as to how it could be fixed, were given both financial  
and legislative reasons to do so and decided to say no.


I don' wwanna stop usin' slaves coz they's cheaper to manage than  
cattle and they work in my financial favour.

My farm, my business, my decision, so get off my land!
So take your northern ways back to New York with ya!

...h.

The legislature is supposed to be a check on business poractices for  
the benefit of the populace in general.



On Oct 04, 2007, at 02:00, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Behalf Of Breton Slivka
Sent: Thursday, 4 October 2007 10:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Target is a business, and they ain't in the business of
making art.

We are talking about a business that, despite one of the comments on
that blog, HAS made a concious decision to exclude a portion of the
populace from using their website. I know this because I've seen the
reasoning before. Who cares about blind people? they're a small part
of the population anyway. Let's just make the whole thing flash.


Yes, they are a business. They are trying to make money. Like all  
of us. All
of their decisions were conscious and based on the premise to make  
money:
use flash for marketing purposes. Save money by getting in a crappy  
web
development company. Save money by not targeting a select group of  
people.


So what? Are you blaming them for running a business? We all have  
to make
these kind of decisions: how do we save money, who are the customer  
groups
we are trying to address... If you don't make those decisions you  
are a

crappy business person and your business won't exist for very long.

Whether their decisions were right or wrong in our eyes is not the  
point.
They have got the right to make those decisions because they are a  
private

company.

Would anybody go and sue the local grocery store for having an  
inaccessible
website? No. Because nobody would expect them to spend much time or  
money or
effort into building a website that works. So where do you draw the  
line? If
a company earns millions of dollars then they should suddenly have  
to be
liable for making their websites accessible? But if the company  
only earns a

few thousands of dollars then it's all fine?

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