Re: [WSG] media queries: device-width vs max/min width

2011-09-25 Thread Joseph Taylor

Tee,

I agree with your thinking regarding a desktop user getting the 320px 
wide layout. It can seem silly. At the same time, responsive design 
isn't supposed to be something visible but something invisible.


I doubt desktop users are ever resizing their browser windows and 
gasping in astonishment when the layout conforms. Table and fluid 
layouts have been doing this always and no one has ever cared then 
either as a user.


Responsive developers are the only ones scaling the browser in and out 
and checking the results.


Yeah, there are a bunch of items that are frustrating with responsive 
design - especially if your fighting to get an element to change from 
one layout to another with out weirdness.


I've only made one responsive site so far and I had to really dumb it 
down to get used to the work method itself, the order I should be doing 
things, trying to gear for mobile first. I'm in the midst of a ton of 
experimentation.


Here's the site so far if my own code can help you at all: 
http://jacque.sitesbyjoe.com


I wouldn't user this building method on a client site unless they 
specifically wanted it at this point or until I figure out some more 
tricks to working this way. Would I offer it? Heck yes. I want to master 
the style and I'm sure you do too.


Keep at it.

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
/Web Designer/Developer/
--
Sites by Joe
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (508) 840-9657
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 9/25/11 5:38 PM, tee wrote:

I would love to hear what other think about the approach for device-width vs 
max/min width.

For myself, I have done a couple sites targeting device-width and really think 
this is better approach. The hype about responsive design got me to try out the 
max/min width approach, I find that I need to tackle more the the window 
resizes (and this means writing more CSS rules means penalizing touchscreen 
device user), and the experience can be quite awful seeing it from desktop 
browser.

I'm sort of in a defeated mood right now, really feel that except the ego to show off, 
I'm unable to find a convincing reason that desktop user needs to be given a 
responsive website anything smaller than 800px.

tee

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Re: [WSG] Breaking validation using noscript - Is there a solution?

2011-07-14 Thread Joseph Taylor
Not sure what to recommend for the noscript tag - Frank's idea is pretty 
good.


Just a thought, is the error really critical if it works? Using XHTML 
Strict, you're gonna have a tough time making the validator happy.


Nice job on the Tesco site by the way. Real nice. I especially like the 
two sections of links with changing images - that's just badass!


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
/Web Designer/Developer/
--
Sites by Joe
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (508) 840-9657
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 7/14/11 8:05 AM, Foskett, Mike wrote:


Hi Mike,

Thanks for the response.

noscript is illegal when placed in the head under  XHTML v1 strict.

Reports 3 errors:

1. noscript not allowed here.

2. document type doesn't allow link here.

3. end tag for object omitted - The killer failure as it refers to 
the /head element.


I tried a full URI too but it made no difference.

While  the same in the body reports one error, does not allow link here.

Server-side languages cannot detect JavaScript on / off on initial 
page request.


Regards

Mike Foskett

http://webSemantics.co.uk/ http://websemantics.co.uk/

*From:*li...@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Support

*Sent:* 14 July 2011 12:08
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] Breaking validation using noscript - Is there a 
solution?


On 14/07/2011 11:36, Foskett, Mike wrote:

Hi all,

Just finished a major update for Tesco's homepage.

http://www.tesco.com/

Tesco's are the UKs largest retailer and this page gets approximately 
1 million hits a day.


The page has been speed tweaked as much as possible given IT / server 
restraints.


Unfortunately the page now fails W3C formal grammar validation.

Because the page as designed was a massive 1.4MB (previously 260 Kb - 
330 Kb), JavaScript was used to fetch image upon demand rather than 
on-load or post-load.


This greatly reduced the impact on the servers (critical) and improved 
the initial page load speed.


Obviously a no JavaScript version was also required.

The image references cannot be in the standard CSS as IE loaded all 
the images, used or not:


.noJS .imgRef {background:url(...)}

Will not work.

All the image references were placed into a separate CSS noJS.css and 
the link in a noscript and this is where the validation breaks.


Apparently noscript is illegal in the head, and a noscript 
containing a link is illegal in the body.


noscript

link rel=stylesheet href=/homepages/default/noJS.compressed.css 
type=text/css media=all /


/noscript

I went for placing it in the body so the noscript is legal but the 
link reference is not.


I can see no alternative, and wondered if any of the list members had 
a more valid solution?


Regards,

Mike Foskett

http://webSemantics.co.uk/ http://websemantics.co.uk/



This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. 
The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco.


Tesco Stores Limited
Company Number: 519500
Registered in England
Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire 
EN8 9SL

VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31

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Failing that, could you not implement php to check whether there JS is 
enabled, if not, it can echo the StyleSheet.



--
Mike Flanagan
CCO Telford Computer Doctor
http://www.telfordpc.co.uk
  
i...@telfordpc.co.uk  mailto:i...@telfordpc.co.uk

0800 058 8914


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Re: [WSG] mobile

2011-06-09 Thread Joseph Taylor
I found the prev/next navigation in the portfolio confusing. 

I was expecting them to be side by side and at the bottom of the entry rather 
than bundled in the main nav. 

Sent via iPhone:

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer/Developer
---
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple  Elegant Web Design
http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (508) 840-9657


On Jun 9, 2011, at 5:11 PM, David Laakso da...@chelseacreekstudio.com wrote:

 Greetings from San Juan, Puerto Rico.
 
 re: http://chelseacreekstudio.com/
 
 Constructive comments are always welcome. Specifically we are interested to 
 know if the images within the portfolio section fill the window horizontally 
 in both portrait and landscape view in handsets smaller than 320 by 480.
 
 This end:
 mobile-- Samsung Galaxy Prevail for BoostMobile with Android/2.2.2.
 desktop--Mac 0S X 10.4.11.
 
 Thanks for your assistance.
 
 Best,
 Milagros Sanchez,
 Creative Director,
 Chelsea Creek Studio
 
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Re: [WSG] the image is not showing in IE7

2011-06-03 Thread Joseph Taylor

Try losing the double quotes like:

win.document.write('body style=background-color: 
#EBF2FA;h4Loading.../h4img src=ajax-loader.gif 
style=border:1px solid;/body');


If you have a url we can look at it might help. Is IE throwing any errors?

*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
/Web Designer/Developer/
--
Sites by Joe
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (508) 840-9657
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 6/3/11 10:34 AM, Mahendran Venkatesan wrote:


Hi Folks!

I just tried to open a popup window. And, dynamically i embed an image 
in the popup window. The image is not showing up in IE browsers. But 
it's being seen in FireFox.


the code looks like below:

--
win=window.open('','','width=200,height=100');

win.document.write(body style=\background-color: 
#EBF2FA;\h4Loading.../h4img src=\ajax-loader.gif\ 
style=\border:1px solid;\/body);

--

Any help on this would be much appreciated! :)


Thanks!
Venkatesan M

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Re: [WSG] Numbers groups like links - mobile

2011-01-27 Thread Joseph Taylor


  
  
You can wrap the phone numbers in an anchor tag:

a href=""1234567890/a

The "tel:" is sorta like the "mailto:" in a link but for phones.

  
  
  Joseph R. B. Taylor
Web Designer/Developer
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (855) WEB-DESN
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/27/11 3:48 PM, Leonardo Ferreira wrote:

  
  We're doing a mobile project for our e-commerce. Some issue I've a
  product code (676767 e.g.) and the markup understand that's a
  phone number. How can I fix this?
  
  Cheers.
  -- 

Nagem

  


  Leonardo Ferreira


  Webdesigner

  :: TI


  


  


  


  Tel.: +55 (81) 2121-2068 |
  Fax:+55 (81) 2121-2299
  


  


  



  


  


  
  


  
  


  
  


  
  


  
  


  
  


  


  

  

  
  
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Re: [WSG] Numbers groups like links - mobile

2011-01-27 Thread Joseph Taylor


  
  
Sorry, with webkit, this might do the trick:

meta name="format-detection" content="telephone=no" 


  
  
  Joseph R. B. Taylor
Web Designer/Developer
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (855) WEB-DESN
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/27/11 5:16 PM, Caleb Wong wrote:
I think what he means is is there any way to avoid the
  product code being regarded as phone number rather than a product
  code.
  
  
  
  On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Joseph
Taylor j...@sitesbyjoe.com
wrote:

   You can wrap the phone
numbers in an anchor tag:

a href=""1234567890/a

The "tel:" is sorta like the "mailto:" in a link but for
phones.

  Joseph R. B. Taylor
Web Designer/Developer
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (855) WEB-DESN
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/27/11 3:48 PM, Leonardo Ferreira wrote:
 We're doing a mobile project for
  our e-commerce. Some issue I've a product code (676767
  e.g.) and the markup understand that's a phone number.
  How can I fix this?
  
  Cheers.
  -- 

  


  Leonardo Ferreira


  Webdesigner :: TI


  


  


  


  Tel.: +55 (81)
2121-2068 | Fax:+55 (81) 2121-2299
  


  


  
  


  


  


  
  


  
  


  
  


  
  


  
  


  
  


  


  

  

  
  
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Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

2011-01-24 Thread Joseph Taylor
I use HTML5 as my doctype, but I don't use the new tags. It's wise to be 
very concerned about backwards compatibility.


Are they more semantic - I suppose. If IE doesn't understand the new 
tags I'd leave them be until another day.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
/Web Designer/Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (855) WEB-DESN
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/24/11 5:44 PM, grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au wrote:


Hello,

Could someone please clarify this for me. I realise that HTML5 has 
introduced new semantic elements such as header, aside etc., but 
does this really increase the expressive power of the markup? Can't 
the same thing be achieved in HTML 4.x using classes (e.g. p 
class=header)?


I am reluctant to move to HTML5 due to the issue of backwards 
compatibility.


I would be grateful for any replies.

Regards,

Grant Bailey
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Re: [WSG] Lightbox++ and mobiles etc

2011-01-18 Thread Joseph Taylor
If you're using a lightbox you must have some javascript in there 
somewhere so:


You can use javascript to detect your viewport size and only fire your 
lightboxes if it's of a certain size.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
/Web Designer/Developer/
--
Sites by Joe
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: http://j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/18/11 8:21 AM, designer wrote:


- Original Message -
*From:* David Laakso mailto:da...@chelseacreekstudio.com
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Sent:* Tuesday, January 18, 2011 12:34 PM
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] Lightbox++ and mobiles etc

On 1/18/11 6:49 AM, designer wrote:

I making an html5 site with a few galleries, each one being a
grid of images 4 rows of three thumbnails.  Clicking the
thumbnails provides a 600px wide image via lightbox++. The images
are all 600px wide, but the heights are different.
When it comes to making the galleries visible on a mobile phone I
do not have a problem since I've made the structure elastic and
the grid shrinks to 6 rows of 2 images. Fine.   BUT : clearly,
the lightbox images simply do not fit on the small screen and I
wondered if anyone has solved the problem of how to stop the
lightbox working on small screens? Media queries?
All suggestions welcome.
Many thanks,
Bob






Try it the other way around: lay it out in mobile first?
@media only screen and (max-width:480px),only screen and
(max-device-width:480px) {...}

Best,
~d




-- 
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/

  

  


Thanks David,
I've done that, no problem. But for 'normal folk on larger
screens' I want the lightbox to show the larger images. I don't
want two sites . . .
??
Bob





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Re: [WSG] mobile

2010-12-29 Thread Joseph Taylor
Looks superb on my iPhone!

Sent via iPhone:

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer/Developer
---
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple  Elegant Web Design
http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (609) 335-3076


On Dec 29, 2010, at 3:16 PM, David Laakso da...@chelseacreekstudio.com wrote:

 If anyone has time to check this site [portrait/landscape] in their mobile 
 device it is greatly appreciated.
 http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/
 
 Best,
 ~d
 
 
 
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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

2010-12-20 Thread Joseph Taylor

IE6 would not load the stylesheet if set up the line of HTML like this:

!--[if (gt IE 6)|!(IE)]!--  main stylesheet goes here  !--![endif]--

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 12/20/10 1:28 PM, Ty Hatch wrote:

http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 4:20 AM, tee weblis...@gmail.com 
mailto:weblis...@gmail.com wrote:


I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as
the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a
broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser,
rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style
sheet has switch off.

Can this be done?

Thanks!

tee

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Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet

2010-12-20 Thread Joseph Taylor

My 2 cents,

Your approach towards IE6 should be dictated by your site's audience. 
Watch your stats. If you have a lot of IE6 visitors, don't they deserve 
a decent page? If they're potential customers, wouldn't you want them to 
go through and make a transaction?


Think of the poor people using IE6. I've seen them come in the following 
flavors:


60% - Persons trapped in old Win2k network without the ability to 
install anything to their profile.
37% - Persons with an old computer with no knowledge of any alternative 
~ /I surf the web by clicking the E!/
3% - Hermits who refuse to upgrade as they still love their IE6's simple 
interface. I'm not kidding.


I still have Windows 2000 servers running web apps I made 10 years. Many 
swear it was Microsoft's last good OS!


At any rate, at least 2 out of the three groups above are potential 
customers. The stats for my own site show that 80% of my new customers 
are using IE, with a good 30% of that group still using IE6. Yeah, it 
kind of sucks, but web design is all about dealing with limitations, 
isn't it?


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 12/20/10 9:14 PM, Chad Kelly wrote:
- Original Message - From: Erickson, Kevin (DOE) 
kevin.erick...@doe.virginia.gov

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet


Yes. Thank you Felix! best viewed works much better. And then throw in
the fact that IE 6 was first release around 2001 and ask them if they
even care if they can see a site in a best viewed fashion. I am
thinking they are not. ;-) j/k.
All's good.

I know of some work places still useing Windows 2000.
Or rather, I have read that they have rolled back to it, after some 
applications and the like wouldn't run on XP, which means that IE6 is 
about the only thing they can run on Windows2000, unless they use 
Firefox, or some other browser.

As I don't think IE7 and 8 run on Win2K.
I also know that a lot of workplaces are swiching to Vista though, so 
with all these different versions of Windows floating around the 
place, and with MS still not dropping official support for IE6 untill 
2014 it is rather anoying.
All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a 
year or so.




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Re: [WSG] images against color backgrounds

2010-12-08 Thread Joseph Taylor

.png with alpha channel is the best way to go.

IE6 and lower can't handle the alpha channel and make the transparent 
background gray.


Based on my site audience I'll make fallback .gif replacements for the 
.png images (that look crappier but are at least transparent)


You can also make 8 bit .pngs (with no alpha channel) that behave just 
like .gif


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 12/8/10 4:01 PM, cat soul wrote:
I hope I'm not bending/breaking the purpose of the list but wanted 
opinions on best practices for preparing images for use on web pages 
where there are color backgrounds, and the image must have some of 
that background color in them.


Example: you want to place an image with a drop shadow, so in 
photoshop, you prepare your image with drop shadow, both of them in 
layers above the same background color as on the page. When you place 
such an image, flattened and jpg'd, it looks seamless.


Trouble comes when you want to change the background color on the 
page(s) where you've already prepped the images with a given 
color..then you have to change that, too, and re-jpg, re-place, etc..


Some images don't look right unless their lifted off the page with a 
drop shadow, IMHO...


cs


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Re: [WSG] images against color backgrounds

2010-12-08 Thread Joseph Taylor
Good point on the javascript repairs (there are a couple techniques of 
fixing .png support in IE6)


Trouble with this method is it can cause other troubles (like links over 
.png backgrounds etc) so be careful.


It all depends on what you're trying to do.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 12/8/10 5:11 PM, Henrik Madsen wrote:

.png with alpha channel is the best way to go.

IE6 and lower can't handle the alpha channel and make the transparent 
background gray.


Can be conditionally fixed with js, for example: 
http://www.dillerdesign.com/experiment/DD_belatedPNG/




Based on my site audience I'll make fallback .gif replacements for 
the .png images (that look crappier but are at least transparent)


You can also make 8 bit .pngs (with no alpha channel) that behave 
just like .gif


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 12/8/10 4:01 PM, cat soul wrote:
I hope I'm not bending/breaking the purpose of the list but wanted 
opinions on best practices for preparing images for use on web pages 
where there are color backgrounds, and the image must have some of 
that background color in them.


Example: you want to place an image with a drop shadow, so in 
photoshop, you prepare your image with drop shadow, both of them in 
layers above the same background color as on the page. When you 
place such an image, flattened and jpg'd, it looks seamless.


Trouble comes when you want to change the background color on the 
page(s) where you've already prepped the images with a given 
color..then you have to change that, too, and re-jpg, re-place, etc..


Some images don't look right unless their lifted off the page with a 
drop shadow, IMHO...


cs


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Re: [WSG] Fixed-position menus?

2010-11-23 Thread Joseph Taylor

Cat,

You can always use javascript to move the menu as you scroll to overcome 
IE6 lacking.


As far as how important is IE6? I guess that depends on your audience. 
The sites I work on have a (sadly) large percentage of IE6 users (10% +/-)


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 11/23/10 4:05 PM, cat soul wrote:

Here is a link illustrating what I mean:

http://thinkplan.org/menupersist.jpg

What are peoples' thoughts on this kind of menu? I'm told that IE 6 
doesn't support this kind of menu...IIRC, it involves


position: fixed;

How key is IE 6, and are people simply not going with this kind of 
fixed menu?


thank you!

cs


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Re: [WSG] HTML5 - Marking up forms

2010-11-10 Thread Joseph Taylor

Eric,

There are a ton of ways to do this. At the moment I stick with one of 
two formulas:


fieldset
legendMy Legend/legend
div
label for=My FieldMy Label/label
input type=text name=My Field
/div
/fieldset

Or if its a bunch of checkboxes or something:

fieldset
legendMy Legend/legend
div
label for=My Field
input type=checkbox name=My Field
Label for the checkbox
/label
label for=My Field
input type=checkbox name=My Field
Label for the checkbox
/label
label for=My Field
input type=checkbox name=My Field
Label for the checkbox
/label
/div
/fieldset

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 11/10/10 12:30 PM, Eric Taylor wrote:

Understandable; however, with the change in HTML5 from Definition Lists to Description 
lists, would it not be more semantically valuable to mark forms up usingdt  
anddd, for labels and inputs, providing the document with a more solid structure? 
As stated, my concern with this is the lack of grouping per item, when using Description 
Lists.

I understand that paragraphs may be easier to handle when marking up forms and 
doing the CSS; however, is it a meaningful method of marking up forms that 
supports the forward progression of HTML5 and front-end development in general?

This is the main reason I'm torn between Description lists and 
Unordered/Ordered lists. What makes most sense from a semantics view, and where 
is the balance between semantics and ease-of-use?

Eric Taylor
  Elements Aside /
http://www.elementsaside.com

On Nov 10, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Patrick H. Laukere...@splintered.co.uk  wrote:


On 10/11/2010 17:08, Eric Taylor wrote:

 From my experience, the best practice, currently, is using Description
lists; however, my concern with this method is the lack of semantic
grouping when using this set of elements.

Another method I have used is using an Unordered list to group each
field inside of a list item. However, this doesn't seem like it makes as
much sense, semantically, as the Description list.

What do you all think, and how do you go about marking up your forms in
HTML5?

HTML5 does not add any new semantics or constructs to mark up the structure of 
forms, it only adds new types, a few features (autofocus for instance) and 
validation functionality.

How you actually structure the lot is still as before (and there are still 
likely heated arguments over which way is good or not...personally, I just use 
paragraphs, as the extra structure of lists is just overkill in my opinion)

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re∑dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
__


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Re: [WSG] HTML5 - Marking up forms

2010-11-10 Thread Joseph Taylor

IE8 and earlier

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 11/10/10 3:45 PM, Kevin Rapley wrote:
I would be interested to gather your thoughts around this solution, 
using progress tags to mark progress through the form.


form action=# method=post
fieldset
legend class=visuallyhiddenForm legend text/legend

progress value=0.0 max=5.0
label for=text-example
span class=label
Label for text input
/span

span class=input
input type=text name=text-example id=text-example class=text /
/span
/label
/progress

progress value=1.0 max=5.0 class=radio-group
fieldset
legend class=visuallyhiddenForm legend text/legend

span class=label
Label for radio group
/span

div class=radiobutton-container
progress value=1.1 max=5.0
label for=radio-label-1
span class=input
input type=radio name=radio-group-name id=radio-label-1 /
/span

span class=label
Radio label
/span
/label
/progress

progress value=1.2 max=5.0
label for=radio-label-2
span class=input
input type=radio name=radio-group-name id=radio-label-2 /
/span

span class=label
Radio label
/span
/label
/progress

progress value=1.3 max=5.0
label for=radio-label-3
span class=input
input type=radio name=radio-group-name id=radio-label-3 /
/span

span class=label
Radio label
/span
/label
/progress
/div!-- / .radiobutton-container --
/fieldset
/progress!-- / .radio-group --

progress value=2.0 max=5.0 class=checkbox-group
fieldset
legend class=visuallyhiddenForm legend text/legend

span class=label
Label for checkbox group
/span

div class=checkbox-container
progress value=2.1 max=5.0
label for=checkbox-label-1
span class=input
input type=checkbox name=checkbox-label-1 id=checkbox-label-1 /
/span
span class=label
Checkbox label
/span
/label
/progress

progress value=2.2 max=5.0
label for=checkbox-label-2
span class=input
input type=checkbox name=checkbox-label-2 id=checkbox-label-2 /
/span
span class=label
Checkbox label
/span
/label
/progress

progress value=2.3 max=5.0
label for=checkbox-label-3
span class=input
input type=checkbox name=checkbox-label-3 id=checkbox-label-3 /
/span

span class=label
Checkbox label
/span
/label
/progress
/div!-- / .checkbox-container --
/fieldset
/progress!-- / .checkbox-group --

progress value=3.0 max=5.0
label for=select-box-label
span class=label
Option label text
/span

span class=input
select name=select-box-label id=select-box-label
option selected=selected data-skip=1Option text/option
optionOption text/option
optionOption text/option
optionOption text/option
optionOption text/option
/select
/span
/label
/progress

progress value=4.0 max=5.0
label for=select-box-label
span class=label
Option label text
/span

span class=input
select name=fancySelect class=combibox
option value=0 selected=selected data-skip=1Choose Your 
Product/option
option value=1 
data-icon=/graphics/structure/forms/products/iphone.png 
data-html-text=iPhone 4lt;igt;in stocklt;/igt;iPhone 4/option
option value=2 
data-icon=/graphics/structure/forms/products/ipod.png 
data-html-text=iPod lt;igt;in stocklt;/igt;iPod/option
option value=3 
data-icon=/graphics/structure/forms/products/air.png 
data-html-text=MacBook Airlt;igt;out of stocklt;/igt;MacBook 
Air/option
option value=4 
data-icon=/graphics/structure/forms/products/imac.png 
data-html-text=iMac Stationlt;igt;in stocklt;/igt;iMac 
Station/option

/select
/span
/label
/progress

progress value=5.0 max=5.0
label for=textarea-example
span class=label
Label for textarea
/span

span class=input
textarea name=textarea-example id=textarea-example class=text 
rows=10 cols=51/textarea

/span
/label
/progress

input type=submit value=Submit form class=button /
/fieldset
/form


Kevin Rapley
Yoo-zuh-buhl | User Experience Consultant
0115 714 2337 | 0772 345 7862
yoo-zuh-buhl.co.uk http://yoo-zuh-buhl.co.uk

Yoo-zuh-buhl, The Terrace, Cultural Quarter, Grantham Road, Lincoln, 
LN2 1BD


On 10/11/2010 19:37, Chris Price wrote:
On 10 November 2010 18:52, Thierry Koblentz 
thierry.koble...@gmail.com mailto:thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote:



I don't think lists should be used for this (there might be a case
for a OL in case of dependant selects, but that would be a
stretch). In the case of DL, I'd say that the relationship between
DTs and DDs is no better than the one created by the labels and
their for attribute.

fwiw, I use divs to wrap controls with their label, not because it
makes things easier to style, but because of the way the form
would look with no such wrapper and no styling.


I'm with you there Thierry

Fieldset is, by definition, a grouping within a form.
The legend describes the fieldset.
The label for and input id link to each other.
There is no subset of fieldset like dt is to dl or li is to ul so the 
only logical element would be a div which is neutral.


I can only imagine I would have 

Re: [WSG] Where are we with Frames?

2010-10-25 Thread Joseph Taylor
I'm sure this group would agree they are pretty much a no-no.  

Sent via iPhone:

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer/Developer
---
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple  Elegant Web Design
http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (609) 335-3076


On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:25 PM, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote:

 How do people here feel about frames?
 
 
 cs
 
 
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Re: [WSG] CSS rollovers for images?

2010-10-20 Thread Joseph Taylor
Good questions. I have yet to see definitive answers for most of these 
questions.


I've been thinking on this constantly as I try to alter my work flow to 
a format that will please all the devices.


Some things haven't changed:

Start with clean HTML that'll work on ANYTHING including JAWS etc.

Build upwards with your CSS from IE6 to modern browsers (or downwards 
from modern browsers to IE6)


Use javascript to add behaviors to your HTML/CSS in a progressive fashion.

The touch devices add a new dimension to the workflow. They may change 
the way you approach some items on a page (like a multi select widget) 
and you now have to pay more attention to the :active attribute in your 
CSS as that'll react to a touch vs. :hover - no biggie, right?


For the most part, the touch devices all use modern browsers which is 
pretty cool. I made an iphone version of my site using media queries, 
which was a lot of fun to do.


The touch devices open a new horizon - no IE!!!

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 10/20/10 10:44 AM, cat soul wrote:
Yes, and while we're on the topic of things that won't work on phones 
and iPadsis there anything else we need to know about that also 
won't play nice with those two handheld platforms?


Is a different design perspective in order now? Do we now design for 
the iPad and for phones, and have desktop and notebook users simply 
have that as what they see?


or are we back to sniffer scripts and multiple versions of our pages?


cs



On Oct 20, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Kevin Ireson wrote:


An excellent and very up to date point about accessibility.

*From:* tee mailto:weblis...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:57 AM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] CSS rollovers for images?

Caution with the use of hover for such purpose if you also want 
touchscreen device user able to use it.



In regards of touchscreen, this article explains it better than I can do.
http://trentwalton.com/2010/07/05/non-hover/

tee

On Oct 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Joseph Taylor wrote:

You could certainly do that with CSS. You'll want to add javascript 
to control how the image shows and fades, positioning etc.


For maximum accessibility, have the thumbnail link to the main 
image, then have your Javscript/CSS hijack the link and show the 
image. Everyone wins.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 10/19/10 4:13 PM, cat soul wrote:

Any thoughts on using CSS hover properties to show larger images?

The scenario I'm envisioning is one where you'd have small 
thumbnails of samples, and hovering the mouse over them would 
invoke a hover state in which a larger version of that same image 
would appear...Larger meaning 400x600 pixels, or in that 
neighborhood.


Is this not wise from a coding perspective? How about usability? Do 
web page visitors not expect this kind of behavior..would it be 
confusing to them as to what they're supposed to do, or what to 
expect?


I'm wanting to use CSS to do what javascript rollovers do, only 
without the javascript.



thanks for any feedback or opinions.

cs




This email has been scanned by Netintelligence
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Re: [WSG] CSS rollovers for images?

2010-10-20 Thread Joseph Taylor
Things are definitely better now than they once were in the world of 
browsers.


Sure, we have a number of IE's of varying inability to deal with plus a 
bunch of others.


Sure, we're constantly in a state of it doesn't work on everything yet.

Sure, not one tool we use can be relied on 100% of the time.

But

We finally have an environment where standards can flourish. Browser 
competition exists again. So much so that Microsft had no choice but to 
join in. This is good.


We have new toys like CSS3 that create enough excitement that browsers 
are scrambling to handle them.


While I've been continuously disappointed for the last decade on 
standards adoption etc, I remain optimistic that the future is bright.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 10/20/10 12:11 PM, cat soul wrote:
Well, you certainly busted wide open a huge can of worms, Joseph, and 
I salute you for it.

the one comfy thing in that, to me, is the no IE part.


Starting with clean HTML is easy enough, but everything else is 
squarely in the don't count on it category..revealing the lick and a 
promise nature of CSS and  Jscript...not that they are not worthy 
tools; they simply can't be counted upon to be properly supported...



but neither can HTML, which, IIRC, is the reason for CSS.


Yanno, folks...I am smelling the need for some kind of revolution 
here...That standards do not work reliably doesn't help anyone..not 
client, not end-user, not author/designer/developer.



Please don't groan, but my background is in Print. Luckily, I never 
had to write PostScript. Illustrator, PS, Quark, and later InDesign 
all do a fine job of it.



but just imagine if I DID have to write the post script, and to know 
variations for every single printing device?!?!


IMHO, we need some kind of lingua franca that works for all of these 
electronic gizmos once and for all...


but...things have been set in motion, and perhaps it's going to remain 
a bucket of stinky fish guts into the foreseeable future.



cs



On Oct 20, 2010, at 8:16 AM, Joseph Taylor wrote:

Good questions. I have yet to see definitive answers for most of 
these questions.


I've been thinking on this constantly as I try to alter my work flow 
to a format that will please all the devices.


Some things haven't changed:

Start with clean HTML that'll work on ANYTHING including JAWS etc.

Build upwards with your CSS from IE6 to modern browsers (or downwards 
from modern browsers to IE6)


Use javascript to add behaviors to your HTML/CSS in a progressive 
fashion.


The touch devices add a new dimension to the workflow. They may 
change the way you approach some items on a page (like a multi select 
widget) and you now have to pay more attention to the :active 
attribute in your CSS as that'll react to a touch vs. :hover - no 
biggie, right?


For the most part, the touch devices all use modern browsers which is 
pretty cool. I made an iphone version of my site using media queries, 
which was a lot of fun to do.


The touch devices open a new horizon - no IE!!!

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 10/20/10 10:44 AM, cat soul wrote:
Yes, and while we're on the topic of things that won't work on 
phones and iPadsis there anything else we need to know about 
that also won't play nice with those two handheld platforms?


Is a different design perspective in order now? Do we now design for 
the iPad and for phones, and have desktop and notebook users simply 
have that as what they see?


or are we back to sniffer scripts and multiple versions of our pages?


cs



On Oct 20, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Kevin Ireson wrote:


An excellent and very up to date point about accessibility.

*From:* tee mailto:weblis...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:57 AM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] CSS rollovers for images?

Caution with the use of hover for such purpose if you also want 
touchscreen device user able to use it.



In regards of touchscreen, this article explains it better than I 
can do.

http://trentwalton.com/2010/07/05/non-hover/

tee

On Oct 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Joseph Taylor wrote:

You could certainly do that with CSS. You'll want to add 
javascript to control how the image shows and fades, positioning etc.


For maximum accessibility, have the thumbnail link to the main 
image, then have your Javscript/CSS hijack the link and show the 
image. Everyone wins.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http

Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)

2010-10-20 Thread Joseph Taylor

Cat,

That's the holy trinity of web design: content, presentation and 
behavior. ;)


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 10/20/10 1:19 PM, cat soul wrote:

I thank you for that link, David.

The picture I am developing now is this: HTML and CSS should be used 
strictly for content, structure and formatting.


*Behaviors* are best left to things like Javascript.


Are these two statements ones that most here can buy into? Are they 
fair statements, accurate reflections of practice and real-world usage?


IOW, there are things we *can* do, and out of that, there are things 
we ought do, or ought not do, based on the demonstrable.



cs


On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:46 AM, David Dorward wrote:



On 20 Oct 2010, at 16:59, cat soul wrote:

will there be/can there be a  new command/property which can be read 
by each device the way it needs to be?


could there be soon a touch command so that you could write the 
code like:


hover, do this. If no hover, then touch, do this. If no touch, then 
__ and do this


We shouldn't need it.

We have :hover which can be thought of When the user is potentially 
about to activate something and we have :active which is When the 
user is activating something.


That should be enough until you start trying to use :hover for doing 
things beyond indicating the possibility of activation, and one you 
start doing that … http://www.cennydd.co.uk/2010/end-hover-abuse-now/


--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] CSS rollovers for images?

2010-10-19 Thread Joseph Taylor
You could certainly do that with CSS. You'll want to add javascript to 
control how the image shows and fades, positioning etc.


For maximum accessibility, have the thumbnail link to the main image, 
then have your Javscript/CSS hijack the link and show the image. 
Everyone wins.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 10/19/10 4:13 PM, cat soul wrote:

Any thoughts on using CSS hover properties to show larger images?

The scenario I'm envisioning is one where you'd have small thumbnails 
of samples, and hovering the mouse over them would invoke a hover 
state in which a larger version of that same image would 
appear...Larger meaning 400x600 pixels, or in that neighborhood.


Is this not wise from a coding perspective? How about usability? Do 
web page visitors not expect this kind of behavior..would it be 
confusing to them as to what they're supposed to do, or what to expect?


I'm wanting to use CSS to do what javascript rollovers do, only 
without the javascript.



thanks for any feedback or opinions.

cs


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Re: [WSG] Long documents

2010-10-16 Thread Joseph Taylor
I personally haven't encountered any standards describing such, but it's 
very common to see long articles break into multiple pages. Also creates 
more ad places if that's your thing.


Others in the group might think differently of course.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 10/16/10 6:19 PM, grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au wrote:

Hello,

Is there any standard (official or otherwise) that limits the length 
of single web pages?


I edit an online journal which contains articles of up to 7000 words. 
Currently each article resides on a single web page which the viewer 
must scroll to read. Some of the articles are 10-20 'screens' in length.


If anyone could clarify whether there is a standard and, if so, how 
such documents should be presented, I would be grateful. If you want 
to look at the journal I'm talking about see www.baileyandireland.com.


Thank you,

Grant Bailey
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Re: [WSG] HELP WITH SETTING UP A CMS PROJECT

2010-09-15 Thread Joseph Taylor

 Mark,

Marvin has been a member of this group for a long time and he's to be 
commended for his never-ceasing efforts to develop websites without the 
gift of sight.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 9/15/10 12:30 PM, Mark Host wrote:
Does nobody see that this email is spam?  The email makes no sense.  
Why would someone write a formal document for a star trek site *they 
*are /writing /themselves?


Here's your first tip starvin Marvin.  TURN CAPS LOCK OFF.


--
Mark Host

On 9/15/2010 7:42 AM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

HI.
THINKING ABOUT REWRITING MY STAR TREK SITE AND THINKING ABOUT USING A 
CMS.

LIKE JOOMLA, WORD PRESS, AND DROOPLE 7 WHEN IT COMES OUT.
SO DOWNLOADED WAMP SERVER 2, AND GOT JOOMLA.
BUT HAVING A BIT OF TROUBLE SETTING IT UP WITH JAWS.
ANY ONE HAD EXPERIENCE WITH A CMS SYSTEM.
AND WHAT DO I NEED TO SET IT UP.
WILL BE WRITING A FORMAL REQUIREMENTS DOCUMENT OF THE PROJECT, AND 
THE TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS AND OUTLINING WHAT I WANT FOR THE PROJECT.

THEN WHICH TOOL TO USE FOR THIS PROJECT.
SO NO NEED TO BANG MY HEAD FOR CODING, USING SQL, AND GOT STUCK WITH 
THE CURRENT PROJECT.

GOT WRITERS BLOCK, OR CODERS BLOCK.
SO WAS THINKING OF MAYBE GOING WITH THIS APPORACH.
IF ANY ONE HAS DONE THIS BEFORE.
SO DO I JUST THEN TAKE MY TEXT, LINKS, AND MAYBE SET OUT WHAT 
NAVIGATION I WILL USE.

ETC.
ANY HELP WOULD BE GRATEFULLY APPRECIATED.
MARVIN.
PS: A LBIND COMPUTER USER, USING THE JAWS FOR WINDOWS SCREEN READER 
FROM HTTP://WWW.FREEDOMSCIENTIFIC.COM http://WWW.FREEDOMSCIENTIFIC.COM


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Re: [WSG] Yes or No? HTML5 FOR WEB DESIGNERS

2010-08-17 Thread Joseph Taylor
 I've read DOM Scripting by Jeremy Keith and it was a fine book for 
what it was.


Haven't read this one though.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 8/17/10 10:49 AM, jeffrey morin wrote:
Does anyone have an opinion on whether the book, HTML5 FOR WEB 
DESIGNERS by Jeremy Keith is worth the purchase? I want to learn more 
about HTML5 but am turned off by the shameless promotion they've done 
for this book. Does anyone have any suggestions on other books or if 
this is worth it?


Thanks,
Jeff

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Re: [WSG] help

2010-04-02 Thread Joseph Taylor

Oh no! Marvin!

Best of Luck!!!

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 4/3/10 2:32 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

hi.
well lost all my project a couple of months ago.
dodgy system restore.
corrupted hard disk.
so with my toshiba satellite a300 you can set it back to default 
factory settings.

thus wiping the drive.
so lost all my projects, data, e-mails, links, contacts, etc.
and my music.
but been able to get most of the music back from a friend.
now got a external 1 tb external drive.
tried a few recovery programs.
but either not accessible.
did find one called recover my files, but to recover, you had to pay 
for the version.

problem, i do not have a credit card or pay pal account.
so, any one used recovery software that works with a screen reader, 
and is free.

marvin.

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[WSG] Ie7 test?

2010-02-18 Thread Joseph Taylor

Can anyone guess why the columns overlap?

http://freemealcenter.com

Thanks!

Sent via iPhone:

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer/Developer
---
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple  Elegant Web Design
http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (609) 335-3076



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Re: [WSG] the mysteries of overflow: hidden

2010-02-10 Thread Joseph Taylor
If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that that overflow:hidden 
doesn't hide overflow?


My own use of overflow:hidden has only been in conjunction with a 
stated height. In this case overflow:hidden hides anything that goes 
beyond the stated height of the element the rule has been attached to.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 2/10/10 1:50 PM, Jody Tate wrote:

(I'm a list lurker. Also, apologies if this has been covered before.)

In CSS, setting a div to overflow: hidden solves a problem it shouldn't--at 
least from the name of the property and value, it seems like it shouldn't.

Often I'll have text, e.g. an h1, overflowing its containing/parent div, but setting the 
containing/parent div to overflow: hidden causes the parent div to set its 
height in a way that the formerly overflowing text no longer overflows.

I've seen this happen for years. Another developer showed me this fix years ago. But over 
the years, I've never read an explanation why overflow: hidden fixes a 
problem its name implies it wouldn't.

Have others seen this? Any explanations?

-jody




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Re: [WSG] fonts

2010-02-02 Thread Joseph Taylor

Marvin,

You don't need to have Arial on your PC to use it in your work. Others 
should have to have it, or any fallback you declare in your stylesheet.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 2/1/10 11:28 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

hi.
i have verdana.
and it reads the name.
but only have got Arial Blakc.
not just plain Arial
what is the correct name for Arial Black.
or where can i download the Arial font.
marvin.




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Re: [WSG] fonts

2010-02-01 Thread Joseph Taylor

Yes Marvin,

That combination is fine.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 2/1/10 4:01 AM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

hi.
so the font for my style sheet.
is it coded correctly.
just that have b een off line for the past few days.
had a faulty power pack for my toshiba and had to order one and got it today
in australia.
a toshiba power pack.
now, so do i put say verdana for my body and arial for headings, links, etc.
marvin.




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Re: [WSG] :: makeready ::

2010-01-26 Thread Joseph Taylor

David,

I missed the items other mentioned, but it looks fine right now.  The 
only item I wonder about is the thick border below the navigation that 
touches the double border directly below it. I'd use one or the other 
rather than both.  That's me though. It looks like a CSS oops to me. 
No normal people will mind it though.


If the client's happy leave it be.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/26/10 8:26 AM, David Laakso wrote:

Lesley Lutomski wrote:

Hi David,



I also have a problem with the double border on the menu items, 
combined with the underlining of the links - too many lines too close 
together. I have neurological problems, which may partly account for 
my reaction here, but I asked my husband and he also finds it a bit 
busy and distracting.


Could I suggest removing the underline and spacing the menu items 
slightly further apart, or using a single rather than double border?  
(I  do actually like the double border.)  Also, changing the blue to 
an orange or red that would be less jarring against the brown would 
be a big improvement.




Lesley







markup
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/mhr/














Still a  neurological problem for you now, Lesley?

~d










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Re: [WSG] my site

2010-01-21 Thread Joseph Taylor

Marvin,

I see you fixed the paragraph before the body tag.

I'm re-validating your page and will send back some more tips.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/21/10 7:04 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

hi.
here's the url to my site i cam currently working on.
okay go and read the code.
and point out to me what errors i have and how to fix.
any advice would be fine.
well will work on the index page.
and if i can improve it any better as a blind person.
let me know.
willing to take any advice, or pointers.
marvin.

http://www.raulferrer.com/joe/html/




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Re: [WSG] my site

2010-01-21 Thread Joseph Taylor

Marvin,

As I send over items I notice - for now forget about HTML 4.01 or HTML 5 
and stay with XHTML for the moment.


Things to fix then get back to me:

Inside the div tag with the id of banner_new you have double break 
tags surrounding both the first level heading and the image. I see the 
same thing in the navigation area.


I'd rather see you use CSS to create those spaces.

For the heading element you could use this CSS:

div#banner_new h1 { margin: 20px 0; }

For the navigation:

div#navigation { margin: 20px 0; }

This would put a 20 pixel space at the top and bottom of the elements.

If you choose to leave the break tags in place (it's your call), you 
need to add the forward slash prior to closing the tag so they validate.


Try those changes and get back to me.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/21/10 7:04 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

hi.
here's the url to my site i cam currently working on.
okay go and read the code.
and point out to me what errors i have and how to fix.
any advice would be fine.
well will work on the index page.
and if i can improve it any better as a blind person.
let me know.
willing to take any advice, or pointers.
marvin.

http://www.raulferrer.com/joe/html/




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Re: [WSG] vallidation problems

2010-01-20 Thread Joseph Taylor

Code example or URL?

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/20/10 10:14 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

hi.
so how do i fix all my vallidation problems and my css.
at a loss.
what do i do.
maybe try to copy the navigation stuff.
do not want to take out thebr /
was vallidating in the copyright page.
how to fix.
please help me with this one.
page.
and the link which i will paste.
having similar issues with the other pages.
also maybe can help with the css.
need a white background colour.
please help.
getting frustrated.
my code looks real good.
but not sure it is not vallidating.
could i try any other validators.
that might vallidate my code.
marvin.

http://validator.w3.org/check#result


http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator




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Re: [WSG] vallidation problems

2010-01-20 Thread Joseph Taylor

Marvin,

You can email me with a link and I'll help you best I can.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/20/10 10:27 PM, Russ Weakley wrote:

Marvin,

In this case I would suggest direct mentoring by a WSG member. Someone 
who can take your pages, validate then and show you each isse and how 
it was fixed. It is often very hard to address all of these issues on 
the list itself, and pushing too many questions out at a time tends to 
freak other members out.


Is anyone on the WSG list interested is stepping in here to do some 
direct help - i.e. become a short term mentor?


Thanks
Russ


On 21/01/2010, at 2:14 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:


hi.
so how do i fix all my vallidation problems and my css.
at a loss.
what do i do.
maybe try to copy the navigation stuff.
do not want to take out the br /
was vallidating in the copyright page.
how to fix.
please help me with this one.
page.
and the link which i will paste.
having similar issues with the other pages.
also maybe can help with the css.
need a white background colour.
please help.
getting frustrated.
my code looks real good.
but not sure it is not vallidating.
could i try any other validators.
that might vallidate my code.
marvin.




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Re: [WSG] google chrome frame

2010-01-04 Thread Joseph Taylor

Tee,

IE6 is out there. Heck, IE5 is still out there (I made the decision to 
ignore IE5 already). How you deal with IE6 (or not) is up to you.


Personally, I still have to check IE6 and at least make sure my layouts 
are working properly. I try to do little things like limiting my use of 
.png files to a minimum so things don't look too ugly. IE6 is around, 
but it's old enough that I only go so far to make their experience match 
that of a modern browser.


I'd love to ignore IE6 too, but real people without a choice are using 
it in the workplace everyday.  A couple of my clients have an office 
full of Windows 2000 workstations.


The Chrome frame you mention can't be expected to be widely adopted on 
systems where the users can't even install anything period.


They probably use Chrome at home though.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Web Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 1/3/10 4:32 AM, tee wrote:
This new kid has been showing up in a number of sites' stats that I 
built.


Wonder if this may spread the use of HTML 5, also curious what benefit 
will it be for us web developers to push IE6 down to 18th level of hell.


For those corporations that are still using W2K and IE6, will IE6 
renders like Google Chrome if user installs Google Chrome Frame and 
that a site has it implemented?


It seems to be.

Quote: Users running Internet Explorer with Google Chrome Frame 
installed will automatically have their pages rendered by Google 
Chrome Frame


However it does not answered if we need to worry about fixing IE6 or not.

tee


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Re: [WSG] skip links

2009-10-28 Thread Joseph Taylor

Mark,

I just add something like this to things that are for mobile/text-only:

style type=text/css media=screen.noscreen { text-index: -3000px; 
}/style

a class=noscreen href=#placeSkip Link/a

It's not perfect (keyboard users with a full blown browser will have to 
tab through them but won't see the links) but combining that concept 
with a little user agent sniffing on the server side of things improve 
your odds of satisfying the needs of everyone.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 10/28/09 8:19 PM, Mark Huppert wrote:

Thanks for that Steve - but I was trying answer the question:
Can anyone point me to the best way of providing a 'skip nav' 
procedure which is invisible to sighted readers 


regards

Mark



*From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Green

*Sent:* Thursday, 29 October 2009 11:01 AM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* RE: [WSG] skip links

A 1-pixel image works for screen reader users but it is no use for 
sighted people who use keyboard navigation.



*From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Huppert

*Sent:* 28 October 2009 23:37
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* RE: [WSG] skip links

spot the typo 

regards

Mark



*From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Huppert

*Sent:* Thursday, 29 October 2009 10:34 AM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* RE: [WSG] skip links

Steve
One way to do it is make a transparent gif of 1px x 1px. Then
embed that in your link with no text. Have an ALT or a TITLE with
'skip navigation'
a href=#top img title=Skip navigation alt=Skip navigation 
src=/screens/dot/gif  //a

regards

Mark


Mark Huppert
Library Systems and Web Coordinator
Division of Information
R.G. Menzies Building (#2)
The Australian National University
ACTON ACT 0200

T: +61 02 6125 2752
F: +61 02 6125 4063
W: http://anulib.anu.edu.au/about/

CRICOS Provider #00120C



*From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Green

*Sent:* Thursday, 29 October 2009 12:52 AM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* RE: [WSG] skip links

I always point people to http://blackwidows.co.uk/. The links are 
accessible to screen readers and are displayed when they have focus so 
they are accessible to sighted users who use keyboard navigation.


*From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *designer

*Sent:* 28 October 2009 13:37
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* [WSG] skip links

Can anyone point me to the best way of providing a 'skip nav' 
procedure which is invisible to sighted readers but is picked up by 
screen readers?  It seems a can of worms - I've searched and read 
about it, but (of course) it is impossible to find out which way is 
recommended by real world web designers who have actually used a 
bullet-proof approach.

I'd be really grateful . . .
Thanks,
Bob



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Re: [WSG] How to: mulitiple input fields with one label

2009-07-12 Thread Joseph Taylor

Tee,

It looks like you should (warning - people will argue about this) markup 
up a table, with the column headings as the labels at the top. Be sure 
to specify the scope=col attribute.


Then in each cell markup your inputs as normal, add your labels and hide 
with css. Not very elegant, but honestly it seems to be the most logical 
approach for EVERYONE to be able to understand everything in the form.


I don't see a reasonable way for the initial labels to apply to a series 
of inputs like that otherwise.


That is, if this layout is necessary.

Hopefully that helps!

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 7/11/09 11:44 PM, tee wrote:
I need to make a form that looks similar to this one which allows user 
to enter up to X number of product info


http://www.hardware.com/services/asset-recovery/

Prefer not to use absolution position + negative text-indent to pull 
the label texts off the screen starts from line 2 however I can't 
think of a better way to have the line 1's labels associate to line 2 
- line 10 input fields and drop-down lists' IDs.


Is this doable ?

tee



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Re: [WSG] working with line-height

2009-07-01 Thread Joseph Taylor

Ben,

On the spacing, the spaces you're fighting with are a combination of 
line-height, margin and padding.


Each browser will implement their own defaults, so resetting the 
defaults with a reset stylesheet has become a popular technique.


For example, if you apply a line like this to your page:

* {
  margin: 0 !important;
  padding: 0 !important;
  }

You should see everything collapse.

Follow that with a:

line-height: XXpx;

and you should see the results you're looking for.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 7/1/09 11:57 AM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Ben Lau wrote:


I frequently have to work with pixel-perfect design,


There is no such thing.


and I'm always having trouble with line-height in particular. Please
take a look at this example:
http://www.hellobenlau.net/wsg/index.html


Where you state, This text size is 11px. it is not; it is 18px
in my browser.

I'm wondering if there was a way to top align the text to its 
line-height.
So say, with text size 20px, could the top of the 'T' be aligned to 
the top

of the pink box?


Align it to the top of its container.


How does the 'gap' above and below the text gets calculated?


What do the W3C specs say? If they don't say, then browsers can
use whatever formula they like.





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Re: [WSG] Accessible websites

2009-07-01 Thread Joseph Taylor
In the big picture, many things will use your website that won't use 
javascript. Like a search engine spider. Or a crappy cell phone.


At the very least make sure your basic site functions don't rely on 
javascript to work. Same thing with images.


The arguments/links below from Ted are valuble if you want to look deeper.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 7/1/09 12:39 PM, Ted Drake wrote:

At Yahoo! we build our sites to work without JS and then add progressive
enhancement.
I don't have the stats in front of me, but we find a much larger number of
users without JS.

Take a look at this page:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news
With JS enabled and disabled you'll see all of the customization
functionality works.

The personalization features were built by Dirk Ginader who also made this
presentation  on why and how you should build sites for everyone.

http://www.slideshare.net/ginader/the-5-layers-of-web-accessibility

Ted DRAKE



-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Chris Dimmock
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible websites (was: accessible free web hosting
account)

I'll just address one you raised Jens.
Google does not currently parse external Javascript files. So unless
Fairfax uses simple inline Javascript, and exposes spiderable URLS,
that's probably good enough for most of us to use progressive
enhancement methodology . Ask Lucas. When he gets back from SG

Chris
http://www.cogentis.com.au


   

Is there any other strong arguments for making pages available,
without javascript enabled?
   

I'd like to know too. On the Sydney Morning Herald in June less than
0.5% of users had JS disabled. Maybe we should drop that support?
Anyone willing to share their numbers/reasons?
 



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Re: [WSG] working with line-height

2009-07-01 Thread Joseph Taylor

David,

What form elements / what browsers do you mean?  I'm curious as I 
haven't seen anyone make comments against reset stylesheets as of yet.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 7/1/09 7:49 PM, David Hucklesby wrote:

Joseph Taylor wrote re: http://www.hellobenlau.net/wsg/index.html

Ben,

On the spacing, the spaces you're fighting with are a combination of
 line-height, margin and padding.

Each browser will implement their own defaults, so resetting the 
defaults with a reset stylesheet has become a popular technique.


For example, if you apply a line like this to your page:

* { margin: 0 !important; padding: 0 !important; }

You should see everything collapse.

Follow that with a:

line-height: XXpx;

and you should see the results you're looking for.



Begging your pardon, but I think this solution may lead to new problems.
Using that margin and padding reset is likely to stop some form
elements working in older browsers. Better to define the margins and
padding you want on the elements that need them, in my opinion.

Specifying the line-height in pixels works differently from browser to
browser, some browsers increasing the line-height along with text size,
while others retain the same pixel height when text is enlarged.

I hesitate to post this, as I wish I had something more constructive to
contribute. Sadly, I don't know how to achieve what Ben asks.

Cordially,
David
--



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Re: [WSG] working with line-height

2009-07-01 Thread Joseph Taylor

To clarify what I do in the real world:

I use a reset stylesheet then reapply my own defaults so my own form 
elements appear fine.


You're correct about the !important declaration - that shouldn't be 
there for the resets.  My mistake.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 7/1/09 10:31 PM, Mark Henderson wrote:

Joseph Taylor wrote:
   

David,

What form elements / what browsers do you mean?  I'm curious as I
 

haven't seen
   

anyone make comments against reset stylesheets as of yet.

 


To reiterate David's point, I sent the below earlier (but due to server
updates many months ago my *true* email was changed, so it never made
it).

**

   

Ben,

On the spacing, the spaces you're fighting with are a combination of
line-height, margin and padding.

Each browser will implement their own defaults, so resetting the
defaults with a reset stylesheet has become a popular technique.
 


Agreed, and there are various implementations out there that do the job,
such as:

http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/01/reset-reloaded/

although I personally find that to be slight overkill.


   

For example, if you apply a line like this to your page:

* {
   margin: 0 !important;
   padding: 0 !important;
   }

You should see everything collapse.

Follow that with a:

line-height: XXpx;

and you should see the results you're looking for.

 


That's a very big negative, given the use of !important on the global
reset (* {}) such an approach cannot be recommended. Actually, unless
I'm mistaken (and it is possible), the global reset has some issues with
forms and various other elements that once set cannot be undone, and has
since fallen by the way. There are other methods of achieving similar
results however (see Eric Meyer's reset link above).  At the very least,
if the global reset is your preferred choice, do *not* use !important
with it or all your margins and paddings are going to disappear on all
elements, and you are in for a world of hurt. Maybe you're a masochist
and that isn't such a bad thing :-P.

HTH
Mark


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Re: [WSG] Right div dropping below left floated div when browser resized

2009-06-30 Thread Joseph Taylor

IE6 will drop your content down to a place where it'll fit.

You need to do something like this:

my_container {
  min-width: XXpx;
  _width: XXpx; /* just for IE6 */
 }

IE6 needs specified width and then it'll behave like it was given a 
min-width.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 6/30/09 4:42 PM, Stevio wrote:
I have two divs as follows (no link sorry, web page is protected) - a 
left div for navigation, a right div containing a header and table 
(with tabular data).


The problem is that when the browser window is reduced in size, to the 
point that the table can no longer shrink to fit inside the available 
space, the table (but not the whole right div) drops down so that the 
top of the table is in line with the bottom of the left navigation 
div. This problem occurs in IE6 but not IE7 or Firefox.


Any ideas how I can fix this so the table just stays in place like it 
should when the horizontal scrollbar appears?


Code is below. Thanks.


div id=navigation
--content--
/div

div id=mainbody
h2My List/h2
div
table class=TableList
--table content--
/table
/div

CSS is:
#navigation {
float: left;
width: 180px;
margin-top: 20px;
margin-bottom: 10px;
margin-left: 9px;
margin-right: 9px;
padding-left: 1px;
padding-right: 1px;
background: #FF;
border-top: 2px solid #336699;
border-bottom: 2px solid #336699;
}
#mainbody {
margin-left: 210px;
margin-top: 20px;
margin-bottom: 20px;
margin-right: 20px;
border: 0px solid black;
}


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Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

2009-06-03 Thread Joseph Taylor
I took a look at your source code - there are a whole bunch of issues 
beginning with oddities in your HTML - things like:


!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN 
http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd;

HTML lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;

Your saying the DocType is HTML 4.01 Transitional, but then you're 
linking to the XHTML namespace - that's probably confusing IE right from 
the get go. Using Transitional DocTypes also pisses IE off.


ul 

Weird spacees in your tags? That's begging for IE weirdness.

Try starting with perfect HTML that's of the Strict DocType whether it's 
HTML or XHTML.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 6/3/09 9:14 PM, Breton Slivka wrote:

I have a stripped down example of it here. The bug only occurs in IE
7, and possibly ie6, and it occurs in IE8 running in compatibility
mode. I cannot be sure whether it happens in IE8 in IE8 mode or not.
(MS have made the compatibility mode interface so bloody complex I
can't figure out whether I'm in it or not at any given time).

The example is here:

http://zenpsycho.com/iebug.htm

On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of
the screen, and a view cart link on the right hand side which is NOT
clickable, but which should be clickable.

The ingredients of this bug appear to be:
* a left floated element followed by
* an italic styled element nested directly inside a p tag, which are
both preceded by
* a menu with links that are floated to the right

Combine these things together, and the right hand side of the screen
becomes unclickable. (you can have a huge column of links on the right
hand side, and they're all useless). What really bothers me about this
one, is that the spell is mysteriously broken (the bug goes away) if
you change this:

Pspanv/span/P

to this:

Pspanv/spannbsp;/P

Just what on earth is going on here?


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Re: [WSG] using skip links

2009-05-13 Thread Joseph Taylor

If the skip link is serving a valid purpose I see no problem using it.

Keep in mind the purpose of the skip link - does the promotion contain  
items that would slow keyboard navigation? if not you probably do not  
need it.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer/Developer
---
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple  Elegant Web Design
http://sitesbyjoe.com
Phone: (609) 335-3076


On May 13, 2009, at 8:17 AM, Jon Gunderson jong...@gmail.com wrote:


One idea is the first skip should be skip to title and the second
link skip to content.

a second ideas is for your second link to  be skip over promotion

It is not clear to me why there would need to be promotional material
between the heading and the content.  COuld you send a link of an
example?

Jon


On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 8:30 PM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi all,

I am to build templates for a page, and below is a pseudo example  
of my code

order:

-skip to #content-
[div#navigation]
a name=content/a
[h1]
[div#promotion]
[div.content]

I've always believed my h1 should always come after the 'content'  
anchor (or
within a #content div), so when screen reader skips my navigation  
to the
content, they're able to read the h1 as well. Ideally I'd like to  
connect
the h1 and div.content together, however I'm stuck with the  
div#promotion in

between as I need to adhere to the visual layout.

I was thinking of inserting another skip link to .content (and add  
another

anchor name before it), so it'll read as:

-skip to #pageContent-
[div#navigation]
a name=pageContent/a
[h1]
-skip promotion to #content-
[div#promotion]
a name=content/a
[div.content]

My question is, is it bad to have a skip link right after you've  
skipped

from the top?
(hope I've explained it well...)

Thanks,
Ben

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Re: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ...

2009-04-06 Thread Joseph Taylor

Sadly, many sites get built this way.

Sent from the iphone of:

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer/Developer
---
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple  Elegant Web Design
Phone: (609) 335-3076


On Apr 6, 2009, at 1:21 PM, Rick Faircloth  
r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote:



Sounds like a nightmare, Mike.



I wonder if the former web designer has any real claim

to copyright on the site’s original graphics, or did the client

pay to be owner of the site’s graphics in their original agreement?



Rick



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:42 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ...



You might be amused to learn about the site I was given to rebuild  
this week.It was built by a photographer who had a mac and some  
free software, and the client said the problem was she had to get  
someone to update it for her every time she changed anything in her  
business.  She wanted a content management system.




That’s no problem for me – that’s mostly what I do .   But I  
was appalled when I saw the site she was asking me to rebuild .. .   
here’s what I found – the work of a woman who was claiming to be  
a professional web designer:




[A]  the site consisted of 8 html pages

[B]  each page consisted of some invalid html code produced by a  
WYSIWYG app, presumably used incorrectly since most WYSIWYG apps are  
CAPABLE of  producing valid code.


[C] the content on each page consisted of a single image for the  
header 1169px x 168px  and another jpg image with all the text,  
photos etc  702px x 961px


[D]  because of the sizes of the header image and the body image,
none of the pages could ever possibly line up across the page  
without a lot of tinkering about.


[E]  the html contained no content whatever, except the name of the  
designer


[F]  all links inside the pages were using image maps – something I  
haven’t used for about  ten years.  I don’t think I’d even  
remember how to do that now if I had to.


[G]  the layout problems caused by the different widths of the  
header and the image in the body were corrected by nesting tables  
with lots of cells and a transparent spacer gif to stretch the cells  
out.   I didn’t bother working out why there were so many of these s 
pacer tables,  I knew at a glance I wasn’t going to be needing anyth 
ing in this code!


[H] because my client has had such trouble getting her site updated  
on a timely basis,  she has taken the site away and is hosting it  
with me,  which has sparked off a war between my client and her  
former web designer,   complaining that I have taken her site by  
using a web archive, in violation of her rights to copyright.  (As a  
first step, I used a browser to copy the files from her existing  
site, so I could see what’s in there,  just in case the former desig 
ner decided to take it off line.Which she did.   So it was a goo 
d precaution.   Then while my client and I are discussing her new si 
te,  I put the existing one up in her new hosting space with me just 
 so the site stays alive while we work out what to do.You can al 
most hear the former web designer frothing at the mouth as she rants 
 and raves on the phone DEMANDING that I pull everything down off th 
e web within ONE HOUR – OR ELSE!!)




It’s like a cat fight.I’m expecting to see them both pulling  
each others hair, biting, and rolling in the mud any time soon.




Anyway, I’d done quite a few sites now that I’ve enhanced by  
making them standards compliant, but I think this is the most extrem 
e case I’ve seen – well since I tried Frontpage v2.0 all those  
years ago.




Maybe I can write it up as a case study later when the new site is  
up.  If the client agrees.








Cheers

Mike Kear

Windsor, NSW, Australia

0422 985 585

Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer

AFP Webworks Pty Ltd

http://afpwebworks.com

Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month




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Re: [WSG] Exemples to use microformats?

2009-02-23 Thread Joseph Taylor
Here's one I made for news entries on a page that uses the hcard 
microformat:


http://onewebguy.com/2008/02/23/marking-up-a-list-of-articles/

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com



Ronaldo Bitencourt - Webmaster wrote:
I am looking for example to use microformtas, something relatively new 
here in brazil, someone can help me with some links?



Tkss

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Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs

2009-02-09 Thread Joseph Taylor

Ben,

That's a great link. It also shows that an extra empty element, while  
it may be the easy way out works across the board without side  
effects of any kind.


Yes it is mixing content and presentation.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer/Developer
---
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple  Elegant Web Design
Phone: (609) 335-3076


On Feb 9, 2009, at 3:23 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com 
 wrote:



On 9/2/09 07:45, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

How can CSS overflow replace div style=clear:both;/div?


See http://www.ejeliot.com/blog/59

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs

2009-02-09 Thread Joseph Taylor
While the nbsp; does represent nothing in a way, it is something  
and I would say that it's use would be slighty worse than a purely  
empty element.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer/Developer
---
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple  Elegant Web Design
Phone: (609) 335-3076


On Feb 9, 2009, at 5:47 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com 
 wrote:



On 9/2/09 02:44, Gerard Hynes (Gmail) wrote:

I'm not expert about screen readers, but I did run a site I upgraded
through JAWS with some interesting results. The site had alot of
pnbsp;/p  due to the CMS they were using and JAWS would  
translate

this to/speak out blank which wasn't ideal. Am not sure if it would
do the same forp/p  ordiv/div  ordiv /.


Precise behavior will vary with publisher styling of the DOM,  
platform, browser (and version), screen reader (and version), user  
configuration, and the commands used when reading that part of the  
page.


For example, JAWS 10 has a concept of blank lines. It will read  
out blank as you step through a document if you come to something  
that matches that concept. The following variations:


pbar/p
pbaz/p

p style=margin: 0;padding: 0;bar/p
p style=margin: 0;padding: 0;baz/p

pbar/p
pnbsp;/p
pnbsp;/p
pbaz/p

pbar/p
div/div
pbaz/p

pbar/p
div/div
div/div
pbaz/p

are _all_ read:

bar
blank
baz

It also has a configuration setting for whether blank lines should  
be spoken with the Say All command. If this is off (as it is by  
default), then the above variations would all be read:


bar
baz

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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Re: [WSG] seeking JavaScript Bible comments

2009-02-08 Thread Joseph Taylor
I wouldn't worry about document.write examples too much. 

You just need to keep in mind that the book is designed to teach the 
language from scratch, and quite possibly the reader hasn't scripted 
before.


Starting from point zero, document.write is a good way to get started 
learning and making things happen fast. I'll guess that the Bible-series 
programming books aren't necessarily considering standardistas.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com



MichaelMD wrote:
Also, the first examples of JavaScript tend to use document.write when 
illustrating the simplest parts of the language. Usage of document.write 
should be banned from day one. Encourage the readers to test simple 



A decade ago (Netscape 4 era) I used document.write in some javascript
widgets for people display some content from another site by using a
script tag. 


They still work in current browsers but javascript has come a long way
since then!





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Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs

2009-02-08 Thread Joseph Taylor
Agreed. An empty div is nothing. Same thing with an empty spans etc... 


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
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Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com



Christian Montoya wrote:

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote:
  

Hi all,

Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your
HTML document?



No.

p.s. ignore all the long-winded answers.

  



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Re: [WSG] Browser / OS Test on website.

2009-01-13 Thread Joseph Taylor

Looks real good!

The list item icons aren't showing up in IE6 - no biggie.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com



Danny Croft wrote:

Hi All,

I was wondering if any of you get a spare minute, could you cast your 
professional eyes over a site I just put online. Its only a small 
online resume type site. But I'd be interested to see if anyone could 
find any issues with it or had any suggestions for items that I may 
have missed. I have done some testing and it passed the online W3C 
Validation Service for both the markup and CSS. Also if anyone is 
running an OS other than OSX (v 10.5.6) then I'd be interested in your 
results on any of the current browers.


Like I said, only if you get a minute.

Link: http://dannythewebdev.com   (almost forgot to add the link)

Cheers,

Danny

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Re: [WSG] First Attempt

2008-11-25 Thread Joseph Taylor
If we plan on working in the web design world, you'll find that the real 
world (at least for the moment) is far from standardized.


Frames, iframes, flash, nested table madness - it's out there on both 
old sites _and_ new.  Sometimes you have to go in and fix something on 
one of these sites...you might join a firm that strictly uses 
dreamweaver and contribute as their cms solution. It's a mad world!


Plan on learning how to do each style as at some point you'll have to do 
it. 

Hand coding, dreamweaver (and pals) - plan on being familiar with both 
styles of development. /The yucky, proprietary dreamweaver template 
setup made me eventually ditch the software altogether. (using Coda 
right now) /CSS, javascript and jquery (and pals) - expect to have to 
deal with them all eventually. We'll skip server-side scripting/etc to 
be nice.


If your cms of choice offers page caching, you can eliminate many of 
those unnecessary database requests etc.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Michael MD wrote:

The way to make it work is to stop writing static HTML sites.  Instead
use one of the many freely available open source CMS frameworks and
simply hand code the templates for them once (making hand coded changes
for other customer sites as required).  That's what we do with Drupal.



I would not recommend this for sites on shared servers unless they 
really do need a full-featured CMS.

Speed is important .. why add bloat if its not needed?

A mysql server in a typical ISP shared hosting environment often 
struggles to handle a large number of statements per second
from hundreds of sites  ..  especially when some of the sites are 
being hit hard by crawlers.
..most off-the-shelf CMS do way too many lookups to show even a simple 
page


Drupal, Wordpress and Joomla are very bad in this regard (doing around 
15-40 mysql lookups for each page!)
 ... Xoops seems better with its file-based caching but may still be 
overkill in a lot of cases.


A lot of this waste comes from storing stats in mysql, looking up user 
data, etc ...
(and in some cases attempting to use mysql even for caching! bad.. 
bad.. bad..)


If you are not using user logins then why do all those extra lookups?

I think part of the problem might be that a lot of  CMS developers are 
not testing on busy shared servers or high-traffic sites.
(they are probably only testing on dedicated servers where they have 
mysql to themselves and the bottlenecks might be elsewhere)


I'm not going to tell people to spend extra cash for a dedicated 
server if all they want is a few simple static pages.






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Re: [WSG] img cannot be contained within the body?

2008-11-06 Thread Joseph Taylor
If you're using XHTML, inline elements (like imgs) need to be contained
within a block level element (like a div).

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 3:04 PM, James Jeffery 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 A very silly question that I cannot believe I am asking.

 I have never had to use img within the body tag. I was playing about with
 a test case for a client and happened to put img directly within the body
 (was for an image on screen with next and prev. links ... a gallery).

 I validated, and it was saying img needs to be contained. I checked the
 specs but could not see anything that was stating this.

 In the real application it wouldn't be directly within the body, because it
 would be within a page section div anyway, but am just curious.

 James.

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-- 
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Re: [WSG] .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict

2008-10-07 Thread Joseph Taylor

Correction on these links:

http://www.mucu4u.org.nz/Home_61.aspx
http://www.oneeast.co.nz/
http://www.colorfastsigns.co.nz/Home_34.aspx

The first fails as HTML 4.01 Strict - no good
The 2nd fails as HTML 4.01 Strict - no good
The 3rd fails as HTML 4.01 Transitional - no good

None are using XHTML 1.0, let alone the strict version.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Robin Gorry wrote:

http://www.mucu4u.org.nz/Home_61.aspx
http://www.oneeast.co.nz/
http://www.colorfastsigns.co.nz/Home_34.aspx



Robin Gorry
Senior Web Developer
Xplore Net Solutions



Xplore.net Website of the Week:  Weleda (Australia) - www.weleda.com.au 



Weleda has a range of anthroposophic medicine - the simple yet powerful
way to utilise nature's medicines to stimulate the body to 'heal
itself'.  Until recently their website did not accurately reflect their
brand and they had no easy way to profile their product range to their
Australian consumers.
  


The new Weleda website is powered by the Xsite content manager, Xforms,
Xshop, Xmembers and Xtend. Combined, this powerful toolset enables
Weleda staff to add/edit/delete pages, text and imagery throughout their
site, create online forms and surveys, provide an online product
catalogue and issue logins to restricted access areas on their website.



f:  00 64 (0)6 834 24 86
e : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: www.xplore.net


Take control of your website - ask me today about Xsite-tomorrows
Content Management System

CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and
may also be privileged.
If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately
and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any
purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Anthony Milner
Sent: 08 October 2008 15:23
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict

Hi,

I was having a *chat* with some .NET developer colleagues and they
challenged me to find a .NET site that achieves XHTML 1.0 strict
compliance. Hoping to prove to them that it can be done.

Does anybody know of some .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict (or even
transitional)?

Thanks,
Anthony

 



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Re: [WSG] Accessible menu lists - using the pipe character as separator?

2008-09-27 Thread Joseph Taylor
A screen reader would read out each pipe character, resulting in a mild 
annoyance I would think.  Is it accessible?  Sure, the device can 
certainly handle the links and separator.


In the end though, the separator is a visual item, not part of the 
information.  The beginning and end of each link handle the separation 
on that level.


That said, CSS should be used to handle that visual aspect of the links.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Tim Gieseking wrote:

Agree with the list of links, and use a CSS border for a separator.

I have no evidence for you, but it sure seems to me that a pipe 
character would be the opposite of best practice.



On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Svip [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


How about a list of links?  If you want a separator, use some CSS
styles.  But for what you are asking, you are probably looking for
an ul list.

Regards,
Svip

2008/9/27 Daisy Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hello all

I can't seem to find a definitive answer on this via Google -
is it best practice to use something like the pipe character (
| ) to separate links in
a menu so that screenreader software pauses between the list
items? Any recommended articles dealing with accessible menus
in general?

Daisy



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Re: [WSG] Copycat site

2008-09-08 Thread Joseph Taylor

Everyone (newbies to the list especially):

Just a reminder about the purpose of this list and some of the things 
that happen on here you should be aware of:


  1. This list's purpose is discussing items related to web standards. 
 Sometimes the lines of what fits here are blurred and thats ok. 
 I've been on the list for 2 years now (I think) and I've seen

 many, many topics come and go that range from appropriate to
 completely inappropriate.

  2. Occasionally off-topic discussions go so far that the admins have
 to come in and give everyone a knock it off!. It happens. 
 Sometimes new members get upset when scolded for such things.  Its

 no big deal.  Many of the members on this list are extremely
 knowledgeable and have been on this list for a long time and are
 frequent contributors and help A LOT of newbies.

  3. These same people have seen many many newbies come and go, many
 with the same OT discussions they want to throw out at everyone -
 like in this instance copycat sites.  That topic does not belong
 here. Plain and simple.

  4. Grandma used to say, You'll catch more flies with honey than with
 vinegar.  In this case, the veteren member could not have put the
 OT reminder more nicely.  In fact in 2 years its the most clear
 and pleasant way I may have seen, yet...

  5. Then another global round of thousands if emails need to get
 generated so the other member can complain in the manner they were
 addressed. Then this email(there will be a bunch more too)

  6. My point?  This isn't Myspace.  Leave the snippy remarks at the
 hair salon where they belong.  This is supposed to be a community
 of clever minds and intelligent discussions - regarding web standards.

Sorry - I just couldn't help myself from writing this post.  I was once 
the snippy newbie to who yelled at members everytime I was mildly 
insultedit happens but hopefully we can rise above it.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Yes Adam, you're right - I will remember that for future posts...

Maybe you can remember your social graces when replying.

Quoting Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


...and this is related to web standards how?
I don't mind these posts - but please mark them [OT]

- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: [WSG] Copycat site


This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally 
 in the online world.


I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to  
the  point of having the same tabs in the navigation


www.foryoung.com
COPY OF
www.webdesignerwall.com

___
Christian Fagan
Fagan Design
fagandesign.com.au


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Re: [WSG] Copycat site

2008-09-08 Thread Joseph Taylor

Matthew Pennell wrote:
On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Just a reminder about the purpose of this list and some of the
things that happen on here you should be aware of:


You missed out Don't top-post and trim replies... ;)

--

- Matthew


Good call!

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] Accesbility Help

2008-09-04 Thread Joseph Taylor
If you want to avoid captchas, my recommendation would be to add a 
question that would foil a robot. Just explain that this field is for 
that specifically.


Something like:

fieldset
legendHuman Verification/legend

pThis section is used to thwart evil spam robots. Fill in the correct 
answer./p


div
labelWhat color is the sky? (hint: blue)/label
input type=text name=human_verifier
/div
/fieldset

You're PHP would be:

?php
// check the answer
if ($_POST['human_verifier'] != 'blue')
{
// incorrect
echo 'Robot! Get out!');
}
else
{
// correct
echo 'Welcome, Human.';
}
?

This is obviously a very, very simple solution but it has worked on 
reducing/removing form spam on a couple of my sites quite well while 
being an accessible solution. I'm welcome to an contradictory thoughts 
on this.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd wrote:


* Click the Essential eBiz Solutions logo to visit our home page 
http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net *



  * Hi All, *


  * This is a mixed question, I have a contact form that I’m building.
  I want to add a human verifier to the forms but not a captcha one
  because they are far from accessible, I’m not that good at PHP
  though to figure it out, I already use the Mikes Green Beast form
  for general contact but this will be to process order request. I’ve
  trawled the internet but all I can find is captcha solutions, can
  any one point me in the right direction? *


  * *


  * Many thanks *

Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd

6 Gibson Place

Meir

Stoke-on-Trent

www.essentialebizsolutions.net http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net

** Disclaimer ** : This email and its attachments may be confidential 
and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is 
addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the 
author and do not necessarily represent those of Essential eBiz 
Solutions Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient of this email and 
its attachments then please contact the sender and do not use or 
forward this e-mail to anyone.


Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd, Registered in England and Wales Company 
Registration No: 57200784. Registered Office: 6, Gibson Place , Meir, 
Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire , ST3 5PQ .


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this e-mail to anyone, nor take copies of it. The only copies 
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Re: [WSG] Accesbility Help

2008-09-04 Thread Joseph Taylor

Good call.

?php
// check the answer
if (strtolower($_POST['human_verifier']) != 'blue')
{
// incorrect
echo 'Robot! Get out!');
}
else
{
// correct
echo 'Welcome, Human.';
}
?

I agree that Mike's form is well made too.  It takes my concept and adds 
in all the other pieces you'd want for the complete solution.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:

Hi Joseph,


?php
// check the answer
if ($_POST['human_verifier'] != 'blue')
{
// incorrect
echo 'Robot! Get out!');
}
else
{
// correct
echo 'Welcome, Human.';
}
?


You can make that a little more foolproof by setting the case of the 
text before matching, upper or lower it doesn't matter, but either way 
it'll prevent answers like Blue, BLUE, bLuE, etc. from triggering the 
Robot! Get out! error.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim




- Original Message - From: Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accesbility Help


If you want to avoid captchas, my recommendation would be to add a 
question that would foil a robot. Just explain that this field is for 
that specifically.


Something like:

fieldset
legendHuman Verification/legend

pThis section is used to thwart evil spam robots. Fill in the 
correct answer./p


div
labelWhat color is the sky? (hint: blue)/label
input type=text name=human_verifier
/div
/fieldset

You're PHP would be:

?php
// check the answer
if ($_POST['human_verifier'] != 'blue')
{
// incorrect
echo 'Robot! Get out!');
}
else
{
// correct
echo 'Welcome, Human.';
}
?

This is obviously a very, very simple solution but it has worked on 
reducing/removing form spam on a couple of my sites quite well while 
being an accessible solution. I'm welcome to an contradictory 
thoughts on this.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd wrote:


* Click the Essential eBiz Solutions logo to visit our home page 
http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net *



  * Hi All, *


  * This is a mixed question, I have a contact form that I’m building.
  I want to add a human verifier to the forms but not a captcha one
  because they are far from accessible, I’m not that good at PHP
  though to figure it out, I already use the Mikes Green Beast form
  for general contact but this will be to process order request. I’ve
  trawled the internet but all I can find is captcha solutions, can
  any one point me in the right direction? *


  * *


  * Many thanks *

Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd

6 Gibson Place

Meir

Stoke-on-Trent

www.essentialebizsolutions.net http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net

** Disclaimer ** : This email and its attachments may be 
confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual 
to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely 
those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of 
Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient 
of this email and its attachments then please contact the sender and 
do not use or forward this e-mail to anyone.


Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd, Registered in England and Wales 
Company Registration No: 57200784. Registered Office: 6, Gibson 
Place , Meir, Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire , ST3 5PQ .


Please consider the environmental impact of printing this e-mail.

CONFIDENTIAL: This email is intended for and confidential to the 
named recipient. If you have received a copy in error, please accept 
our apologies and destroy it. You may not use or disclose the 
contents of this e-mail to anyone, nor take copies of it. The only 
copies permitted are to be made by the named recipient and for the 
purpose of completing successful electronic transmission to the 
named recipient and then only on condition that these copies, with 
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Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE

2008-09-01 Thread Joseph Taylor

My 2 cents:

I've been coding CSS layouts since 2003.  I've probably laid out several 
hundred sites at this point.


Today, I always code on FF first (yes for the tools).  Yes, Opera 
renders a little more accurately.  Once you learn little CSS tricks to 
stabilize floated items, their containers etc your pages should look 
good in Opera and Safari first run when coded on FF.


Once you learn the troublespots in IE (widths with padding, dealing with 
heights) they're easy to spot and fix.  Many of the issues can be solved 
by one extra element in your html (or one less depending).


Best way to troubleshoot if you haven't dealt with all the bugs is to 
remove stuff from your page until you can isolate your trouble spot.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



huzairy rezuan wrote:
I think that I've read about this in Andy Clarke's Transcending CSS 
book. Maybe it's under the Progressive Enhancement approach.


On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 9:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi David,

I wouldnt say that I code for Firefox, more that I code in
immaculate standards compliant code and that it seems to work best
in Firefox, Safari and Opera ;)

You are right though - make for standard complient browsers and
then use conditional statements for IE. Most of the time these are
to fix very minimal spacing issues.

This isnt much but this article on sitepoint defines that firefox
is the browser for web developers:
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/08/29/would-you-switch-to-ie8/

Darren Lovelock
Munkyonline.co.uk http://Munkyonline.co.uk


Quoting David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

Hi,

For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for
Firefox, hack for IE.

That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser,
and then
making adjustments for non-standard behaviour.
I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my
boss said
who says?.

I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer.
Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a
conference
or something and it got stuck in my head.

Is this the way anyone works?
Is it the best way to work?
Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of
googling this afternoon turned up not very much.

Thanks,
David

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Re: [WSG] how to use images and text in a menue

2008-08-28 Thread Joseph Taylor

Or you could:

style type=text/css
/* 
-

I'm assuming you've already reset the
padding and margins on all elements involved
-*/

ul#nav li {
 background: url(my-image.jpg) no-repeat;
 }

ul#nav li a {
 padding-top: ?px; // match the height of the image
 display: block;
 // you may or may not need this
 min-height: ?px;
 _height: ?px; // a little fix for ie6 and friends
 }
/style

!--HTML--
ul id=nav
 lia href=my-page.htmMy Page/a/li
/ul


That's the way I'd do it.  There are many, many ways to achieve this effect.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Svip wrote:

Try style=background:url(images/home.png) no-repeat top left; width:
imagewidthpx; height: imageheightpx; for the first a.

I'd probably do something like this:

lia href=# id=home-linkHome/a/li

Then in CSS:

#home-link {
  background: url(images/home.png) no-repeat top left;
  width: WIDTHpx;
  height: HEIGHTpx;
  overflow: hidden;
  padding-top: HEIGHTpx;
}

That way, people using a graphical browser won't see the text, but
people using a text-based browser and search engines will see the
text.  Of course, you could just use alt= in the img / tag, but
that is not pretty either.

Regards,
Svip

2008/8/28 Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  

How would people suggest if I have a menu with an image on top and text
underneath and I want both the text and the image as a link

I'm thinking of making them link items and use css to move the image on top
of the text.  Does that sound semantically correct.

lia href=#img src=images/home.png //a /li
lia href=#HOME/a/li

--
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



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Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Joseph Taylor
People have already said this, but an unordered list, a little css and 
some sprites allow for very graphically rich navigation that is usable 
in almost all circumstances.  I have been putting image replaced 
navigation on all my sites for some time.  You could even use a big 
photograph.


Posting what you're trying to do will get you better answers than basic 
generic responses like this.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
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/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Jason Pruim wrote:
Honestly, I think he just wants a very specific look... He also thinks 
it looks neater then using plain txt


I'll talk to him about it and let him know about the possible down 
falls with the whole thing... After I read up on image maps that is :) 
I'm assuming they rely on some sort of client side script? But I 
haven't googled yet so feel free to ignore the question :)



On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


You're right about a client like that being a pain in the rear.

I had a client who wanted customers to contact them via email,
but didn't want to use a contact form and didn't want them to just
use a link to email from the website.  He was dead-set against forms
even though they were the answer.  He was so hard to work with, I
eventually cut him loose.  (Glad I got 50% of the cost up front! :o)

I imagine this image-map client was just after a certain look and
had been told by someone that an image map was the answer and wasn't
open to other solutions which are better and provide the same results.

Rick


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

Hi Rick,

If any client were to tell me how to code their website I would
probably tell them to go elsewhere. The client is more than likely
going to be a pain throughout the project and then also when making
payment.

Obviously this is within reason - design aspects - of course they
decide. When it comes to the coding, the client most certainly does
not know best! If they want it to be of a high quality and well
optimised then I will make it using the best of my abilities. There's
no reason that they should specify how it is coded, unless they're a
developer and they need it formatted in a specific way.

This must not be a normal customer anyway if they know about image
maps. I'm interested to know why they requested it in the first place..

Quoting Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Darren...

I find your comment, I would most certainly not allow the use of
an image map, interesting.

What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your client demands 
it?


You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a 
client

wants to do something that you don't like?

Rick


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

Hi Jason,

I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are
only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or
similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation.

For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an
unordered list:

ul id=nav
li class=img1link1/li
li class=img2link1/li
li class=img3link1/li
/ul

Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then
set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a

Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and
width of the link.

Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully
accessible menu.

Darren Lovelock
Munkyonline.co.uk

Quoting Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Good Morning everyone!

I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.

I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not 
better

then image maps.

Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I 
don't

know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him
since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.

Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!

Thanks everyone!






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Re: [WSG] W3C Validation Question

2008-08-26 Thread Joseph Taylor

Well for starters you're missing your opening html tag...

Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Nancy Johnson wrote:

I just ran the following page through the W3C validator.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ewr/instances.cfm and the only thing it
didn't like was the way I displayed the metatags. I got 4 errors.
These are metatags that have been there long before I came and
integrated them into the new style sheet.  I don't feel comfortable
deleting them.

Any thoughts?

Nancy


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Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell

2008-08-07 Thread Joseph Taylor
If the markup has to stay as it is now, your problems are probably 
coming from images for one thing.   IE7 adds the 3 pixel padding to the 
bottom of the images so getting equal heights will be tough.


You should be able to get the cells to behave somewhat with this classic:

td {
   min-height: 50px;
   _height: 50px; /* for  IE7 */
   }

Then again...

Why IS this 2 different tables?  It seems the data in the left table is 
part of the grid of the 2nd table.


Putting the tables together in markup would alleviate the issues you are 
having in the presentation and make the relationship of the data more 
proper.


I'd do something like this:

table
   captionAllocation Table/caption
   thead
  tr
 th scope=colRoom Type amp; Period Totals/th
 th scope=rowDate/th
 th scope=colTue 05 Aug/th
 etc...

You can mix up td and th as long as you specify what the headers are 
covering, be it a column or row.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



kevin mcmonagle wrote:

Ok here it is-Im just putting this up here as a last ditch effort.

http://67.199.64.89/newtable3.html

Can anyone offer advice on fixing/locking table cell/row height across 
browsers?



The main problem is making the two adjacent tables appear to be one 
continuous table. Getting the cell  height to line up is proving very 
difficult, maybe impossible.  It aligns ok in ff3 but breaks in ie6 
and ie7 both in different ways. Im using the height  html attribute 
right now because i cant think of another way to fix the height of 
cells with the differnt kinds of different data in them.


Im trying to fix a broken .net  layout with css and html.
Its never going to validate, theres nothing i can do about that.

-best
kevin














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Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell

2008-08-07 Thread Joseph Taylor

Kevin,

If I may make a recommendation, adjust the background color of your 
cells to match the bottom color of your background gradients so when 
text gets enlarged it still looks smooth inside the cell rather than 
having the graphic cut off.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



kevin mcmonagle wrote:
yes for some reason programmer needs two tables which was the  big 
issue  for me.

I have the height alignments just about worked out  now though.
Regarding the color, there isnt much color in the table layout, unless 
you counting black which is a shade like white.
The input boxes have to be color coded i need to adjust those as they 
are quite busy at the  moment.

-thanks
kevin



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Re: [WSG] Marking up a Calendar

2008-08-05 Thread Joseph Taylor

Definitely a table for a calendar, like:

table
   captionAugust 2008/caption
   thead
  tr
 th scope=colSun/th
 th scope=colMon/th
 th scope=colTue/th
 th scope=colWed/th
 th scope=colThu/th
 th scope=colFri/th
 th scope=colSat/th
  /tr
   /thead
   tbody
  tr
 td1/td
 td2/td
 you get the idea.

We would mark up a calendar as a list only if we weren't planning 
displaying the dates based on the day of the week.  Like a funky 
futuristic calendar.


A time line would be marked up as a list for sure.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
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--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
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Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Bruce wrote:


8bits Media wrote:

We currently have a project that includes a calendar in the design.  
The dilemma I currently have, is what is the best way to mark the  
calendar up? Should we use tables, or is it more semantically 
correct  these days to use an unordered list?


I'd be very interested to here peoples thoughts on the matter.

Thanks,

Nick Lazar
8bits Media


To me a calendar is columns and rows of data, so a table works fine.

Bruce
bkdesign solutions



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Re: [WSG] dl question

2008-08-04 Thread Joseph Taylor
To clarify, when people use a definition list for something other than 
actual definitions and terms, they usually use the dt's and dd's to 
represent the relationship of the items within the dl.


For example - markup for a list of properties for sale:

dl
   dtPhoto of Property/dt
   dtAddress of Property/dt
   ddPrice of Property/dd
   ddBeds and Baths/dd
/dl
dl
   dtPhoto of Property/dt
   dtAddress of Property/dt
   ddPrice of Property/dd
   ddBeds and Baths/dd
/dl
dl
   dtPhoto of Property/dt
   dtAddress of Property/dt
   ddPrice of Property/dd
   ddBeds and Baths/dd
/dl
dl
   dtPhoto of Property/dt
   dtAddress of Property/dt
   ddPrice of Property/dd
   ddBeds and Baths/dd
/dl

In this case the dt's handle the terms, or way we identify a property 
- by a picture of it or by address.


The dd's handle the attributes of the property: bedrooms, baths, price 
etc.


You can apply this principle to almost any information - sometimes a 
tabular layout works even better - it just depends on your needs.


The dl used in this examples works great on crappy cellphones since 
its elements stack.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
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Stuart Foulstone wrote:

A dl is a LIST of definition terms and their description.

dt is a definition term to be described (not title).

dd is description of the definition term.


See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3


On Mon, August 4, 2008 4:20 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Hi all,

I was under the impression a dl could only contain one dt and one
or many dd's.

But I have just come across a piece of code that uses multiple dt's
in the one dl

Upon further investigation, it seems this is legitimate
practicebut does it make sense?!?!

Semantically, isn't the whole point of a dl to use definition data
tags (dd's) to describe a definition title (dt)!? Does it make
sense to have multiple definition titles in the same dl?! Or does it
make more sense to have a seperate dl for each dt??
__
Christian Fagan
Fagan Design
fagandesign.com.au


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Re: IE6 support - was - Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?

2008-08-04 Thread Joseph Taylor

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The opposite is true as well.  I don't do work for large entities - only 
very small local businesses so I can share their own situation.  Theres 
no question in my mind that these entities make up a huge share of 
computer usage.


This typical office I work has computers that fall into these groups:

The new computers (usually just a couple reserved for the people on them 
constantly like secretaries etc) - always Dells with either XP sp2 or 
Vista.  Both have IE7 installed.  This covers occasional laptops people 
bring from home etc too.


The normal computers (all Dell Dimensions with celerons and around 3-4 
years old)  These computers represent the business's major technology 
investment and all have IE6 and are slow as hell.


The old computers (they all seem to still have ONE floating around) that 
has wither win2000, ME, or 98 (its true!) that are typically hidden in 
the back of the office.


Point being, large organizations making major migrations to ease the 
burden of web development isn't going to happen at a rate that would 
please us.  Most of these organizations will only migrate if something 
disastrous happens. 

I imagine: As CEOs iron out what to do with profits for the year do you 
really think any one of them are saying I was gonna pocket this money 
or spend it on my mistress, but instead lets get the work force some new 
computers, I noticed that images using alpha channels are not displaying 
properly for the slaves.  I say probably not


My 2 cents.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
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--
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/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
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James Ellis wrote:

Hi Mike

No worries, not interested in war, but I do understand.

I guess the one big answer about why change is that, over time, sites will 
just stop working to their full efficiency. There is also the big one called 
security (or lack of). I hope, but I don't think, that this fabled desktop 
image would include FF3, Safari 3 or Opera 9.5 as the default browser :D even 
IE7 gives me the odd grey hair still.


I can only think the organisations that can't upgrade  are those completely 
welded to IE6 because their interfaces only work in that browser OR those that 
are still using Windows 95/98/2000. If their IT setup is structured that way 
wellthey've got their own hole to dig out of.


I guess what I'm getting at is that for new clients or redevelopments, we can 
do a lot to educate clients and customers and following on from that improve  
our lot as developers -- maybe even hasten IE6's demise.


Thanks!
James


On Monday 04 August 2008 20:23:10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Not wanting to hijack the PNG thread, so I've altered the subject.

I understand the issues involve in huge migrations, it's not
that easy..
  

At the risk of starting a war, it doesn't sound like you do understand.

Before even starting to plan a migration, any decent corporation, of
whatever size, must first demonstrate a business advantage to the task.
The bigger the organisation is, the more likely they will have a desktop
image (XP Pro) that can be applied to any machine they buy in,
regardless of what is on it, so neither hardware obsolescence nor the
withdrawal of software support holds a big fear for most.

The true question is not 'why not upgrade to IE7?'  but actually 'why
change?'.
I can give numerous reasons to upgrade to FF, but no real reasons to
upgrade to IE7.


As an aside, I am not at all worried by this - it was the longevity of
IE4 that did most to make people aware of the alternatives; hopefully
IE6 will have the same effect: a little more short-term pain for some
long-term gain as they switch to Safari.

Regards,
Mike





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Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?

2008-08-03 Thread Joseph Taylor
In the end IE6 isn't going to be 100% if you're using .png files.  Even 
the javascripts out there cause odd bugs - things like link over .png 
backgrounds not working etc.


My advice and what I do in actual practice - use conditional comments to 
address IE6 and lower and replace all instances of .png with a .gif.


Yes, it doesn't look as nice the .pngs, but then again everything looks 
like crap on them - just look at the non-aliased text!


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
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Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Сергей Кириченко wrote:

not to use png with alpha in IE6 )
just like  adobe.com (look at drop-down menu in different browsers)

sri ni пишет:

Hi All,

What is the best *solution *for IE6 PNG issue?

--
Thanks,
Srini Perumal


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Re: [WSG] Validation

2008-07-03 Thread Joseph Taylor
Many parts of the object tag can make a validator upset - especially 
the embed portion.  You're best bet is to add the flash using 
javascript via one of the popular scripts like swfobject, ufo etc...


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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Fuji kusaka wrote:


Hi everyone,

I have a flash animation in my webpage and this causes a big problem 
when i have to validate the page.


Can someone help me out?
--
Fuji kusaka
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Re: [WSG] Help with div tags in Dreamweaver CS3

2008-06-12 Thread Joseph Taylor

Susan,

Firstly,

If you're making this page in wysiwyg mode, there's not much we can do 
to help.


If not,

For your flash backgrounds, add:

param name=wmode value=transparent

and a wmode=transparent to your flash code.

A one column center aligned page is really easy:

html
   head
   style type=text/css
   body {
   margin: 0;
   padding: 0;
   }

   div#one_column {
   margin: 0 auto;
   width: 780px;
   }
   /style
   /head
   body
   div id=one_column
   ...assorted content of your choosing with alignment etc 
taken care of

   /div
   /body
/html

Layout using CSS takes a little getting used to.   Learn the quirks 
involvesWhen you run into trouble, go backwards and remove things until 
you isolate your problem element(s) and then a well worded search


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
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Susan Levin wrote:
Hello everyone. I am pretty new to Dreamweaver and CSS and Flash. I 
have created pieces for a new website and I desperately want to make 
the jump to using CSS for all placement...but don't know where to 
start. My client is patiently waiting and I am pulling my hair out by 
now. A comp of what I am trying to get my master page to look like can 
be found here:


http://www.thewowfactorcakes.com/comp.html


And here is the page that is up and waiting for some placement help:

http://www.thewowfactorcakes.com/

I need first of all the make the white background go away for both the 
handwriting swf file and the fade in and fade out images file below that. 

I created this page from a one column fixed centered template in 
Dreamweaver CS3. 
Can anyone come to my rescue? Sincerely, mango2020





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Re: [WSG] Reset CSS

2008-06-10 Thread Joseph Taylor
The reset.css (in the form you mention) first came about from css 
developers who set the same defaults again and again as they made 
sites.  They obviously realized they repeated themselves and eventually 
created a separate stylesheet to handle that.  I did this myself (I 
chose the name global.css).


I'd end up with a css structure like:

/CSS/
-
- reset.css (set universal defaults)
- screen.css (set screen defaults)
- mypage.css (page specific styles)
- print.css (set print defaults)
- handheld.css (small screen defaults)

As far as using frameworks, its a great idea that has far to go still so 
use sparingly.  I prefer the http://960.gs framework.  Low on bloat.  
Again use sparingly.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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Miles Menegon wrote:

Hello all,
 
Wondering what your thoughts are on whether to use  a 'reset' 
framework for CSS.  I've noticed that quite a few people on the list 
use it to try to overcome default browser behaviour / user-defined 
browser preferences.
 
I understand the benefit of trying to level the playing field in terms 
of cross-browser rendering, but shouldn't we be giving users at least 
some control over how they like to view the web?  And by using a 
'reset' framework, aren't we just compensating for poor standards 
compliance on behalf of IE?  How does a reset framework compare with 
an IE-only stylesheet, for instance?
 
Thoughts...
 
M
 


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Re: [WSG] Stumped need suggestions - how to highlight two links at once

2008-06-04 Thread Joseph Taylor

You would want to use an external javascript file.

Your javascript file would need to:

  1. watch the links in question for a mouseover event
  2. if the event fires change something visual about the link and
 whichever other link meets a set of criteria.

To be more specific, you'd have to post code/url

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Likely, James A. wrote:


Hello,

I need help/suggestions.

Want to highlight two links at once if you rollover on of them. I 
attached an example to make things easier.


Basically if you rollover the risks on the right side of the page, the 
same link would highlight in the left navigation.  I am able to get 
this working using target and hover if they are in the same li but 
as you can see that would not be the case for this. I am stumped and 
not sure where to look.


Does any one have any suggestions on how this could be done while 
keeping web standards in mind?


Thanks for the help!

James


hrascreen.jpg


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Re: [WSG] Definition lists for testimonials

2008-05-05 Thread Joseph Taylor
Definition Lists are wonderful markup tools.  They do create a nice 
relationship between element pairs and I find myself sometimes using 
them for lists of real estate properties for sale:


Something like:

dl
   dtproperty photo //dt
   dtaddress, city st zip/dt
   ddprice/dd
   ddbeds / baths/dd
/dl

You can style them well in a wide range of ways and without any styling, 
additionally the raw dl display natural indentation also explains the 
relationship.


Browsing properties

The  photo/address (what I would say we humans consider the property's 
definition term)


Then, descriptive features like bedrooms, baths etc (which are to be 
considered the definition description).


At the same time, microformats could be used...

div class=vcard
   div class=testimonial...Testimonial Text/div
   div class=orgName of Client's Company/div
/div

Or even something like:

p class=testimonialI want to take the time to let you know that 
both of

our websites get many compliments daily. You did a great
job. Thanks. span class=fromClient Name/span/p//

Joseph R. B. Taylor
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Rick Lecoat wrote:
Hi, I need to mark up a list of client testimonials. At first I was 
going to do it with a UL but then I thought about the multi-part 
nature of each 'item' (Client's quote, client's name, client's 
company) and figured that a definition list might be a better option. 
My only reservation about that is the fact that by using the 
established structure:


dl
dt client's quote /dt
dd client's name /dd
dd client's company /dd
/dl

...the 'term' will be way longer than the two 'definitions'. But 
clearly the client name and company name should come after the quotation.


Is this actually un-semantic or is it just slightly counter-intuitive? 
Can a DT be 10 times the length of its DDs?
Alternatively, should I be looking at a blockquote/paragraph 
combination instead? (that doesn't feel as elegant because it lacks 
the self-contained nature of a DT/DD set).


Suggestions welcome.
--
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-05 Thread Joseph Taylor
I've used flash sites that have been poorly done - confusing interfaces 
etc.  Awful Experience.


I've used flash sites that have been built well.  Excellent experience.

Accessible?  Not really, but...

If you're providing a fall-back HTML version you're covered.

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Michael Persson wrote:

The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have
produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones.

What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full
flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in
general??

I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the
usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i
very difficult and difficult to use.

Michael Persson



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Re: R: [WSG] Alternative to align = center?

2008-05-04 Thread Joseph Taylor
I suppose it wouldn't matter if you used a class or id, but the id can 
be linked to from within the document, so if your page had a table of 
contents or something, you could jump from point to point.


Id's have to be unique on the page, so they are perfect for attaching to 
the unique sections of the document, so you could structure a document like:


div id=header
   div id=logo /
   div id=nav /
/div
div id=content /
   div id=main_content /
   div id=sub_content /
/div
div id=footer /

This makes css more specific. I can easily say make all text in my main 
content 100%, but sub content should be smaller and lighter lets say:


#main_content {
   font-size: 100%;
   color: #000;
   }

#sub_content {
   font-size: 80%;
   color: #666;
   }

Or you could get really specific, lets say the only links on the page 
that wouldn't be underlined would be links within unordered list items 
that are nested within other list items, and only in the subcontent section:


#subcontent ul li ul li a {
   text-decoration: none;
   }

Any other links in lists would be left alone.  This specificity with no 
extra classes - all thanks to one id set on a parent element.


As far separation, the less classes etc you have in your document the 
better I say since the raw document needs none.  As soon as you add 
classes etc you begin to intertwine the two.  Obviously its a huge 
improvement from tag soup even with a bunch of classes all over the place.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
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Michael Horowitz wrote:
Can you explain to me a little bit more of the  theory of why you 
would want to use and id vs a class called center is this type of 
situation.


Trying to understand more how this becomes an issue of separating 
presentation and content.


Thanks

Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Joseph Taylor wrote:
FYI - Adding such a named class, especially with the name center or 
center goes against separation of presentation and content.


In a situation where your HTML looks like:

div
div class=centre
my images /
/div
div class=centre
my images /
/div
div class=centre
my images /
/div
/div

You should change it to something like:

div id=my_section
div
my images /
/div
div
my images /
/div
div
my images /
/div
/div


Then your CSS rule could look more like:

#my_section div {
text-align: center;
margin: 5px;
}

One day you'll wish that div didn't have the class name of center, 
especially if there are a bunch of them. Just give an id to the 
container that would hold them all and use your css selectors to 
isolate the elements you wish to style.


In the end, either choice will create the same effect. This one is a 
little more future proof.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
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Stuart Foulstone wrote:

Or use a CSS class to do the same,

div class=”centre” 

and

.centre {
  text-align: center;
}

On Sat, May 3, 2008 10:22 am, Diego La Monica wrote:
 

What about div style=”text-align: center” ?





Diego La Monica

Web 2.0 - Standards - Accessibilità

mobile: +39 3337235382 - skype: diego.la.monica

web: http://diegolamonica.info - http://jastegg.it



  _

Da: Simon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Inviato: sabato 3 maggio 2008 11.15
A: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Oggetto: [WSG] Alternative to align = center?



Hi,



I know that the align attribute such as div align=”center” is not
allowed
in XHTML Strict, but it got me thinking on what the possible 
alternatives

are for a dynamic environment such as a forum?



For instance if I know the image width or the total width of all the
images
will be the same I usually put them in a wrapper with a fixed width 
and

use
margin: 5px auto as an example.



What happens if you will never know the width of the images or how 
many

images someone may post, as happens on a forum I run. I’ve resorted to
creating a bbcode tag that uses div align=”center” as that is the 
only

way
I can think of.



Are these scenarios always doomed to use transitional doctypes and
deprecated code?



I’d be interested in your opinions



Cheers

Simon


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Re: R: [WSG] Alternative to align = center?

2008-05-04 Thread Joseph Taylor
Yes, its really easy to add class names as you need them and there is a 
level where it seems both logical and usefuul.


Sadly that is not the reality though.  Patrick hit the nail in the head 
when he mentioned changing designs and having that once relevant class 
name end up attaching styles that no longer match the name you 
originally chose.


Adding a class name of centre is just as bad as picking something like 
red. 

If you take a step back when preparing to apply classes to things, 
you'll find that you are always thinking all the links in the nav 
section or something to that effect, hence using the single class or id 
on the parent element and selectors to achieve what you want.


To climb down fro the soapbox and into a working reality you have to 
break these rules sometimes.  Every page I've ever made that uses any 
floats has somewhere a:


div class=clear/div

with matching css:

div.clear {
   clear: both;
   }

I could come up with fancy workarounds but in the midst of deadlines 
I'll add one superfluous element anytime.


Same thing with my navigations:

I always:

ul
   lia href=#Link Textspan/span/a/li
/ul

Yes, the extra span shouldn't be there. Having it there always me to 
perform elegant image replacements and degrades gracefully.  The mere 
site of that HTML may send some of our members to instantly flame that 
practice.


The bottom line is that there is a pleasant middle ground that exists 
between perfect standards compliance and accomplishing what you want.  
Like anything else you should only break the rules if you know the rules 
- just in case


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
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/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
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IceKat wrote:
How is using a name which is descriptive and easy to remember and 
understand (like for those coming in after you've written the code) 
going against that separation? It's not actually putting the styling 
in the html and if anything it saves coding. If you have a class of 
center then you can define it in your stylesheet as

.center{
   text-align: center
}
and anything has that attribute, including divs, headings, paragraphs 
etc. Imagine creating and writing a class for everything like that 
which needs it! You'd wind up with 50 extra lines of code and a bigger 
file and therefore longer download time.


Plus if it's a class then you don't have to worry about it being used 
more than once on a page and you know exactly which name to use when 
you need that attribute as will anyone else who comes across it later.


IceKat


Joseph Taylor wrote:
FYI - Adding such a named class, especially with the name center or 
center goes against separation of presentation and content.


In a situation where your HTML looks like:

div
div class=centre
my images /
/div
div class=centre
my images /
/div
div class=centre
my images /
/div
/div

You should change it to something like:

div id=my_section
div
my images /
/div
div
my images /
/div
div
my images /
/div
/div


Then your CSS rule could look more like:

#my_section div {
text-align: center;
margin: 5px;
}

One day you'll wish that div didn't have the class name of center, 
especially if there are a bunch of them. Just give an id to the 
container that would hold them all and use your css selectors to 
isolate the elements you wish to style.


In the end, either choice will create the same effect. This one is a 
little more future proof.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Stuart Foulstone wrote:

Or use a CSS class to do the same,

div class=”centre” 

and

.centre {
  text-align: center;
}

On Sat, May 3, 2008 10:22 am, Diego La Monica wrote:
 

What about div style=”text-align: center” ?





Diego La Monica

Web 2.0 - Standards - Accessibilità

mobile: +39 3337235382 - skype: diego.la.monica

web: http://diegolamonica.info - http://jastegg.it



  _

Da: Simon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Inviato: sabato 3 maggio 2008 11.15
A: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Oggetto: [WSG] Alternative to align = center?



Hi,



I know that the align attribute such as div align=”center” is not
allowed
in XHTML Strict, but it got me thinking on what the possible 
alternatives

are for a dynamic environment such as a forum?



For instance if I know the image width or the total width of all the
images
will be the same I usually put them in a wrapper with a fixed width 
and

use
margin: 5px auto as an example.



What happens if you will never know the width of the images or how 
many

images someone may post, as happens on a forum I run. I’ve resorted to
creating a bbcode tag that uses div align=”center” as that is the 
only

way
I can think

Re: R: [WSG] Alternative to align = center?

2008-05-03 Thread Joseph Taylor
FYI - Adding such a named class, especially with the name center or 
center goes against separation of presentation and content.


In a situation where your HTML looks like:

div
div class=centre
my images /
/div
div class=centre
my images /
/div
div class=centre
my images /
/div
/div

You should change it to something like:

div id=my_section
div
my images /
/div
div
my images /
/div
div
my images /
/div
/div


Then your CSS rule could look more like:

#my_section div {
text-align: center;
margin: 5px;
}

One day you'll wish that div didn't have the class name of center, 
especially if there are a bunch of them. Just give an id to the 
container that would hold them all and use your css selectors to isolate 
the elements you wish to style.


In the end, either choice will create the same effect. This one is a 
little more future proof.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Stuart Foulstone wrote:

Or use a CSS class to do the same,

div class=”centre” 

and

.centre {
  text-align: center;
}

On Sat, May 3, 2008 10:22 am, Diego La Monica wrote:
  

What about div style=”text-align: center” ?





Diego La Monica

Web 2.0 - Standards - Accessibilità

mobile: +39 3337235382 - skype: diego.la.monica

web: http://diegolamonica.info - http://jastegg.it



  _

Da: Simon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Inviato: sabato 3 maggio 2008 11.15
A: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Oggetto: [WSG] Alternative to align = center?



Hi,



I know that the align attribute such as div align=”center” is not
allowed
in XHTML Strict, but it got me thinking on what the possible alternatives
are for a dynamic environment such as a forum?



For instance if I know the image width or the total width of all the
images
will be the same I usually put them in a wrapper with a fixed width and
use
margin: 5px auto as an example.



What happens if you will never know the width of the images or how many
images someone may post, as happens on a forum I run. I’ve resorted to
creating a bbcode tag that uses div align=”center” as that is the only
way
I can think of.



Are these scenarios always doomed to use transitional doctypes and
deprecated code?



I’d be interested in your opinions



Cheers

Simon


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Re: [WSG] will this ever validate?(swfobject 2.0)

2008-05-01 Thread Joseph Taylor
All the javascript methods for embedding flash use a script within the 
page to replace a div with the flash code, which is another way 
validation fails.  If you write an unobtrusive script that adds the 
script tag to the page once the dom loads, you can write  a fallback for 
the flash for non-script people and everyone should be happy.


A proper fallback would be an image, or paragraph outlining the content 
of the movie etc.


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James Jeffery wrote:
Embedding flash has always been and issue and always will be in HTML 
4.01. There are lots of methods but there are problems with all of 
them (as i'm aware). I think the best way of doing it is follow what 
the SWFObject documentation recommends.
 
You could always dynamically include the Flash, but that would cause 
problems for users without JavaScript.
 
Im not aware of the HTML 5 developments (i know, i know, i should be 
but im a busy guy) but maybe there is a fix in the future.
 
Regards



 
On 5/1/08, *kevin mcmonagle* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi,

Im trying  swf object 2.0.

http://www.seaviewnightclub.com/mockup2.html

Im using the static-standards compliant method that uses
conditional comments.
I thought it would validate better than this.  Theres a lot of
unclosed errors on the param tags. Should i just self close those
i wonder? Theres also errors with ids being defined twice.

Is anyone else usign swfobject 2.0 here, if so are you using
dynamic or static method and why?

-best
kevin




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Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-30 Thread Joseph Taylor

Patrick,

To clarify the below statement:

It's really aimed at people who are newer to this stuff and who may be 
confused/ignorant about doctypes and/or just using whatever doctype 
Dreamweaver defaults to or whatever, after reading through both Thierry 
and Russ's example links and thinking about everyone on this list who 
may be using XHTML served as text/html simply because its newer 
combined with my own learning over the years and my statement is based on:


Lowest common denominator - HTML
MimeType issues (IE and application-xml)

Both of these points can be dug into further and turned into another 
HTML vs XHTML conversationbut lets not.


So to re-state my previous statement in its new publicized version:

If you're new to doctypes and want to play it safe, or are learning css 
etc, stick with HTML 4.01 Strict while the work is completed on 
(X)HTML5.  Sure, you can use XHTML as it exists in any of its flavors if 
you wish, but if you aren't aware of little issues involvedwhy?


Please, again I'm not trying to start another HTML vs. XHTML thread I swear.

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Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Joseph Taylor wrote:

Great information and clarification everyone.
If anyone hasn't taken an underlying message away from the 
conversation so far, it is to use HTML 4.01 Strict for you web 
documents when possible...


I wonder where you're getting that message from, to be honest...

P



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Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-30 Thread Joseph Taylor

Andrew,

Of course its based on taste.  Personally I prefer the stricter coding 
rules of XHTML, but I've found that WYSIWYG editors for the CMSs I 
produce for clients are far happier in a plain ol' HTML environment.  
Its probably the editor I usebut none are perfect!


My own site is XHTML 1.0 Strict.

All the commercial work I do is in HTML 4.01 Strict.

I haven't done a site with a transitional doctype since 2005 when I had 
first learned about the doctypes and the role they play in the rendering 
of your documents by browsers.


In the end, any of the doctypes, strict or transitional, will allow a 
user to view the information on a page.  No one has been able to prove 
hands-down the best way to go one way or the other.


IMO HTML 4.01 is now a closed book.  Its safe It is what it is and its 
clear that eventually HTML5 will step in.  I feel the XHTML has a more 
haphazard future in the fact that there are a couple branches running - 
perhaps someone could quickly clarify the status/future of:


XHTML 1.0
XHTML 1.1
XHTML 2
XHTML5

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Andrew Maben wrote:

On Apr 30, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Joseph Taylor wrote:


stick with HTML 4.01 Strict while the work is completed on (X)HTML5



IMHO (and given the depth and breadth of the replies to my original 
post I'm feeling very humble right now, as well as extremely grateful 
to you all) -  I do think that given the current state of the art this 
is the best approach, at least for me. But, indeed, let's not get into 
XHTML vs. HTML - I understand and respect the XHTML proponents' 
viewpoint, but in the end isn't it a choice based on personal taste?


Andrew






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Re: [WSG] JS Image Slider

2008-04-29 Thread Joseph Taylor
The non-js version could also hold all the images and the css overflow 
property could be used to force a little scroll bar to scroll through 
them, almost re-creating the effect your going for.


JS would step in to improve...  What your saying is fine too.

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James Jeffery wrote:
Im looking on creating an image slider. Basically a 400px x 200px box 
that you can slide along and reveal more images. They will hold the 
'latest' image uploads. Each slide will have about 4-5 images, you 
scoll accross and you view more.


I want to do this so that users without Javascript enabled can still 
see the images. Would it be best to create the box and to start with 
display the first 4-5 images and if JS is disabled then they get the 
first few. The images are selected at random from the new galleries.


If the user has JS enabled then they can view all the images. There 
will be a limit of 15 images in the slider box. I can load the images 
into an array using PHP and then use JS to extract the images that 
wouldn't get displayed if the user has JS disabled.


Anyone got any views on it? I was looking at the Yahoo Design Pattern 
for a similar thing.




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Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-29 Thread Joseph Taylor
The transitional doctype was created to simply allow an easier 
transition between doctypes as people updated their sites to newer, 
more advanced doctypes.


In the past it meant changing HTML3.2 pages to HTML 4.1.

More recently it meant moving towards and XHTML 1x strict doctypes from 
something else.


Honestly, in the end there isn't too much difference other than allowing 
for some extra elements and attributes that are banned in strict, e.g. 
the target attribute for links, font tags etc...


Strict is certainly the way all doctypes are supposed to be in an 
information utopia. However, transitional isn't going away.


It'll be a tough argument to make to a non-nerd. Your argument might be 
better based in true facts and statistics vs. the good fight.


For example, I don't use the strict doctype because, its better, cooler 
etc.  I use it because it makes IE6 more predictable as the traditional 
doctype puts the browser into quirks mode which makes for a few more css 
display oddities.


Accessibility falls on deaf ears frequently.  Replace that argument with 
the case of cellphone users etc having an acceptable experience.  Does 
your site work on a crappy phone?


Usability should be a prime concern - perhaps the ultimate concern. 
Accessibility, standards - all these things are under the umbrella of 
usability.  A truly usable site would be valid, using recommended 
standards and accessible to all.


The zealots will argue to only use strict no matter what!  Tell that to 
godaddy, yahoo or any of those other big companies using SiteBuilder to 
fill the web with a bunch of crap transitional documents.


Your boss is a business man. If the dollars and cent of what you propose 
don't make sense - forget it.  Make your future additions valid.  Change 
one page on the site to a slimmer strict doctype and see if you can find 
some ways to show that one is superior, be it bandwidth, cellphone 
performance or whatever.


Good luck!

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Andrew Maben wrote:
I'm finding myself having to justify my work methods to a boss who has 
almost zero interest in usability, accessibility or standards. (Though 
I have managed to get into the long-term plan: ...website that is 
compliant with W3C standards and Section 508...)


One question that has been raised is if site X has pages that 
validate as transitional, why do you have to produce pages that 
validate as strict?


To my embarrassment I don't have a ready answer - I realise that it's 
something that I've essentially taken on faith.


Any one care to help fill in the blanks?

Pages that validate as strict are superior to transitional because 
___.


It is important to serve pages that validate as strict because 
___.


Thanks in advance.

Andrew






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Re: [WSG] JS Image Slider

2008-04-29 Thread Joseph Taylor

An example? Text-only browsers. No visual styles!

However, a list of images is exactly what you're serving to the visitor, 
right?


Ugly, yes.  Semantically correct? Quite.

Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that plenty of text-only users 
frequently encounter lists of images and wouldn't be thrown off by it.


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Andrew Freedman wrote:

James Jeffery provided the following information on 30/04/2008 12:27 AM:
that will mean that users without CSS will get a bunch of images in a 
list


You have users that block CSS??

I have never come across that.  Can you give an instance as to where 
and why you would cater for these visitors?


Thanks.
Andrew


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Re: [WSG] JS Image Slider

2008-04-29 Thread Joseph Taylor
I'll chime in to mention that people who intentionally turn off CSS, or 
use their own specific styles to override defaults represent a TINY 
percentage of users. TINY.


For me personally, testing without CSS is a mute point since I spend a 
fair amount of time creating a nice naked document to begin with.


There isn't any other reliable method - especially since we can't 
predict what one of these user-defined stylesheets would contain.


Good point to bring up though.

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Mark Harris wrote:

Andrew Freedman wrote:

James Jeffery provided the following information on 30/04/2008 12:27 AM:
that will mean that users without CSS will get a bunch of images in 
a list


You have users that block CSS??

I have never come across that.  Can you give an instance as to where 
and why you would cater for these visitors?


Perhaps not block, but who substitute your css for one of their own 
which is better for their browsing experience. It may be a high 
contrast big text version to help with poor vision, it may be 
something that expands the clickable field around an object (by 
increasing external padding - to be honest, I don't even know if 
that's possible) if they have mobility issues, or they may just have a 
fascination for purple and beige as their link colours. I don't think 
you can ever assume that a user is going to use your css as you intended.


I turn off css all the time when I'm testing for accessibility - 
always have.


mark


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Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-29 Thread Joseph Taylor
Great information and clarification everyone. 

If anyone hasn't taken an underlying message away from the conversation 
so far, it is to use HTML 4.01 Strict for you web documents when possible...


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Nikita The Spider The Spider wrote:

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

I'm finding myself having to justify my work methods to a boss who has
almost zero interest in usability, accessibility or standards. (Though I
have managed to get into the long-term plan: ...website that is compliant
with W3C standards and Section 508...)

One question that has been raised is if site X has pages that validate as
transitional, why do you have to produce pages that validate as strict?



One argument against the use of transitional doctypes is that they're
now more than eight years old which makes them about half as old as
the Web itself. Do you want to base your site on what was status quo
half a Web lifetime ago?

Good luck

  



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Re: [WSG] Question on YUI

2008-04-28 Thread Joseph Taylor

YUI / Blueprint / jQuery / MooTools / Scriptaculous / Code Igniter /
Cake PHP etc.

The thing you need to remember with any framework - use only what you need.

Does using a framework mean you need to construct a menu with
javascript?  Heck no.  Do you need to use any of the supplied tools? No.

Should you use it to aid in specific tasks that it helps with?  Sure.

I was against frameworks for a long time - but now I use, Code Igniter
for my PHP work (again, only as necessary), jQuery for my Javascript (as
needed), and I'm using a modded version of the 960 grid system along
with my regular css.

In no event do I exclusive rely on the framework (though I've really dug
into Code Igniter) and I always write my own stuff along side.  I
wouldn't recommend using any framework until you're comfortable with the
tools its built for first.

I'd never use YUI until I knew how to replicate many of the things it
accomplishes by hand first.  I wouldn't use jQuery if I wasn't
comfortable writing scripts from scratch.  Same thing with Code Igniter
and PHP.

I've done some many layouts that use hand-written floats and clears to
mimic grid systems that I finally said, Why not?  In the end its a
couple superfluous div tags with  presentational class names Many
will cry blasphemy, and I'd be one if I hadn't properly weighed the
options and discovered a middle ground that seems to work.

Point: A new tool in the tool box can help speed up certain tasks, but
no framework or tool is the be all, end all of web development in any form.

At least not yet.  The frameworks are for the most part wonderfully made
and thought out.

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James Jeffery wrote:

I see.
 
Cheers for the reply.
 
On 4/28/08, *David Dorward* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On 28 Apr 2008, at 11:35, James Jeffery wrote:

Call me wrong but from my knowledge relying soley on
JavaScript and JSON for a menu is a bad idea when
accessibility is concerned.



Generally speaking, yes, although there are exceptions.

Do they expect the users to create alternatives for users who
would not be using Javascipt?


Yes.

The example that i quickly looked over is:
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/menu/topnavfromjswithanim.html


http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/menu/topnavfrommarkupwithanim.html 
is
the same menu built from markup instead of JS.

-- 
David Dorward

http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Strange things indeed

2008-04-26 Thread Joseph Taylor
I'll assume the margin/padding/border reset is part of a complete css 
reset/restyle attempt.


You don't need to set all borders to 0 - I can't think of any bordered 
elements other than the button offhand and you'd add in the table border 
settings as part of your css reset separately.


That said, the beginning of your css file be:

* {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}

For tables:

table {
border: 0;
border-collapse: collapse;
}

This would replace what you have and have the desired effects.

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Bob Schwartz wrote:

That did it, thanks a lot.

Now if I could just figure out IE6 on my quotes.


Would this be doing it?

/* Neutralize styling */
* {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
border: 0;
}

By removing the border margin and padding from every element, your
buttons is just a grey square. You might need to be more specific
about which elements to reset.

--
Josh Nunn || 040-888-4168 || http://nunnone.com


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Re: [WSG] Flash on top of Flash

2008-03-03 Thread Joseph Taylor
Using flash for your navigation is fine.  Just set it up so its an 
enhancement to a regular ol' ul/li nav rather than the only alternative.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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Joseph Ortenzi wrote:
I agree. I thought having a main menu in Flash is not compliant with 
Web Standards.


Why must your navigation be in Flash?


On Feb 29, 2008, at 09:14, Breton Slivka wrote:

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Anthony Milner 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi,

I have two flash files - 1 contains a flash menu the other contains an
animation. We are trying to position them on top of each other...



I don't know, I might be mistaken, but given that this is the web
standards group mailing list, I thought we were supposed to discourage
this sort of behavior.

You could solve all kinds of problems by just not having a flash menu
to begin with.


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Re: [WSG] multiple css style sheets

2008-02-27 Thread Joseph Taylor
I see no reason not to use multiple stylesheets other than a smaller 
download time.


Each stylesheet should be separated only if it serves a purpose of course.

For example, most of my sites currently use this formula:

!-- CSS --

link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=all href=/css/global.css
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=screen, projection 
href=/css/screen.css
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=screen, projection 
href=/css/homepage.css
!--[if lt IE 7]
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=screen, projection 
href=/css/ie.css
![endif]--
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=print href=/css/print.css 
  

I could probably add a handheld stylesheet to that setup.

The global stylesheet handles the global styles for all media types and 
performs some resets to standardize areas where browsers differ.


The screen stylesheet handles the universal screen styles.

The homepage stylesheet handles elements that are unique to the 
homepage. (or subpage if thats the case)


The ie stylesheet handles box model fixes etc for ie6 and under

Finally, the print stylesheet handles print display.

Needless to say, one stylesheet couldn't be this flexible.

As far as conflicting rules, typically the browser would render 
whichever rule came last, overwriting any previously set styles while 
inheriting those that are not affected.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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Michael Horowitz wrote:
Just inherited a site and saw pages with multiple style sheets.  Is 
there a reason for that and how does the browser determine what to use 
if there is a conflict





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[WSG] Linux Page Test Please

2008-02-27 Thread Joseph Taylor

Good Linux users:

Can I ask you to take this page for a spin and reply off-list if you 
encounter a problem?


http://allturf.sitesbyjoe.com/

Thanks!
--

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Re: [WSG] PHP includes

2008-02-05 Thread Joseph Taylor
You don't need to add any styles to the include file.  Keep in mind the 
php does its stuff long before any css rules get applied which happens 
only after the dom is loaded into the user's browser.


I cannot speak for SSI as I've never used it once. Always did asp/php 
includes.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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Michael Horowitz wrote:
If I am including a menu using the PHP include command but the actuual 
menu is an html list does the included file need to have its code 
including the css style sheet or will it use the style sheet of the 
page it is included to.


Also is their a preference in web standards for using PHP includes or 
something like SSI?





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[WSG] Page Rendering Test Please

2008-01-22 Thread Joseph Taylor

Can my IE7/Opera/Linux friends please take this page for a test ride?

http://www.ellicottmack.com/home/homepage

Just send me a personal note if you notice a rendering issue.

Thanks a bunch!
--

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Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers

2008-01-12 Thread Joseph Taylor
I would try to get an old cheap G3 or something on ebay, you can get 
them very cheaply and often with OSX installed.


The rendering differences between Firefox etc will be similar, but the 
respective font sizes will be a little different (a little smaller on 
the mac).


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Peter Mount wrote:

Hi

I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new 
PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for 
Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for 
that.


Is there a difference between Mac versions of browsers like Firefox 
and Safari or can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my 
web sites to behave the same on the Mac?


Currently my main OS is Kubuntu but I'll soon be trialling Red Hat 
Desktop 5 Multi OS.


Thanks




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Re: [WSG] Javascript based ASP Form Mail script?

2007-11-29 Thread Joseph Taylor
You're better off asking your web host about that one.  ASP usually 
needs a 3rd party component to send email reliably.  I've seen CDONTS 
turned off many times.


My old ASP scripts use the SmartMail component which has been 
discontinued by the creator.  If you mean ASP.NET thats another story.  
Thanks to things like that I switch to PHP and now life makes sense again.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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James O'Neill wrote:

Greetings all,

Does anyone know of a solid and robust Javascript based ASP Form Mail 
script that outputs a compliant confirmation email as well?


Thanx



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Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI

2007-10-12 Thread Joseph Taylor
I haven't tried Yahoo's library, but jQuery is just great.  I only use 
it lightly (getting DOM elements, applying classes etc), but its been 
very nice to work with so far.  No code issues.


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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Simon,

jQuery won't introduce any errors automatically, so unless you tell it to
do something that will generate invalid HTML or CSS it will be fine. I
assume the same is true of YUI.

- Andrew Ingram

  

Hi,

Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ?

Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps?

Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance,
error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate?

*I LOVE those little green lights.

Cheers,

Simon





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Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-08 Thread Joseph Taylor

McLaughlin, Gail G wrote:
We always ask the client if they require that the site comply 
with accessibility.



Why not say Would you like a shitty website, or a good quality 
website?  Well-made shouldn't be an extra feature...


In fact, since its clearly cheaper and easier to make a crappy website, 
why don't you just mock up pages in Illustrator, save the whole thing as 
an image with no alt attribute, and use that instead of a real page?  
Thats real cheap and easy.  Heck, there are people that actually do 
that!  Most people will never know!


I cannot tell anyone how to run their own business, or design a website 
for that matter, but I want to state for the record that anyone on this 
list should be doing there very best to make the best sites they can.  
Adding alt attributes to images and doing other minor things that make 
pages more adaptable to devices and more user-friendly is the right 
thing to do.


Blind people?  Accessibility is not about blind people.

As a designer/developer I don't really care about blind people.  I don't 
consider them (gasp!).


I do consider PDAs, cellphones, text-only browsers, screenreaders and 
google. 

I take the responsibility upon myself to deliver a product that works on 
all of them.  I also make no guarantees.  I don't mention accessibility 
or other browsers, etc to the client since the aren't considered with 
the computing world beyond their own desktop for the most part.


Those who do ask get the speech of the year and come away knowing that 
it's a major part of my methodology.  I do it for my own satisfaction. 
Each site is a little better than the last and comes a little closer to 
being the perfectly marked-up document that it should be to properly 
function of all devices.


Does this take longer or cost more?  I'll say not.  My PHP coding goes 
10 times faster since I use the codeigniter framework to handle the 
typical BS, my javascript goes 10 time faster since I use jQuery to 
handle the typical BS, and I have written enough sites that I have a 
pretty good process going, the result being a better site put together 
more quickly.


For some developers it will take longer and cost more. I know people 
that shudder to think of making a navigation bar by hand, forever stuck 
to dreamweaver's horribly bloated javascript rollover menu.  For them 
its simply not an option.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-08 Thread Joseph Taylor
I'm glad to hear that so many of us are experts on law and other topics 
that have nothing to do with web standards whatsoever.


What does this suit have to do with web standards?

Well, perhaps down the road somewhere more strict governing will be put 
in place. 


Do we want the government involved with web page construction?  No.

Maybe this is an opportunity to point out the exact failure in the site, 
offer a fix, and then go through our own commerce sites to make sure we 
don't have any similar problems.


Maybe the more entrepreneurial of us will spam store owners offering 
shopping cart repair services.


Maybe, just maybe this will get thrown out of court and quickly forgotten.

Maybe, target will fess up to being an evil corporation and explain the 
whole problem was the inability of the English speaking executives to 
clearly explain the problem to the developers in China that earn $0.15 
an hour working on the site, reminding us why to hire local people.


Hopefully something positive will come from it.

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Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-08 Thread Joseph Taylor


Gary Barber wrote:
Oh I agree with what is being said.  But consider, for a moment. You 
ask do you want a good quality web site. The clients replies, 
quality means expensive. As long as it looks good I don't care.


So the client says Why should I use you with your standards and 
accessibility,  Cowboy Design Joe here is half the cost and looks the 
same, same Google ranking.


Thats the true cost of Accessibility.

I hope you're not saying this in fear of losing business to cowboy design!

I'd tell them to call Cowboy Design then.  The web is too important to 
cut corners before you even start.  It'll be that same person calling me 
in a year or two saying that they hate their site.


There's plenty of people all around me that build crap sites for cheap. 
Always will be.


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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-03 Thread Joseph Taylor

To add to the colorful discussion...

There is certainly merit behind being able to design a site the way you 
want.  I've written private web applications where javascript was 
required - cookies too.


In the public sphere, its a whole different story.  Yes, you can choose 
to visit a website, just like you can choose to visit the local library.


The library is required to offer some level of accessibility to disabled 
visitors.  A website should do the same, especially in an instance where 
it is designed for the general public seeking public information.


On the target suit, at a glance it does seem frivolous. Blind people 
shopping online does seem crazy since we tend to think of the web in 
such visual terms.


In reality, the suit is a result of target's basic refusal to change the 
checkout process on the site so a screenreader or other device can 
checkout using the shopping system.  If I remember correctly there were 
given a year if not more to do so and still didn't with the suit being 
the consequence.


We all know that this would not be difficult to do.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
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Steve Green wrote:
I think you'll find the people of Tibet didn't build Mount Everest and 
weren't even able to influence its design.
 
Target chose to design their site the way they did, and a professional 
designer would have known that they were excluding some people from 
using the website. In the face of such wilful or ignorant behaviour I 
believe it is necessary to legislate. Sure it's inconvenient to have 
to worry about people with disabilities and incur additional costs to 
support them, but it's a mark of a civilised country that we do. At 
least where I live.
 
Steve
 



*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Chris Wilson

*Sent:* 03 October 2007 22:51
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard


Or do you think that your right to 'do what the hell you like' 
outweighs other people's right to be treated equally?


Be treated equally? They have to CHOOSE to visit the site. So, because 
they want (want need)to do something, others should accommodate?


I want to visit the summit of mount everest... I suppose the people of 
tibet should install an escalator just so I can reach the top due to 
my less-then-perfect phisical status. Damn them for not allowing me to 
the summit, I'm going to sue.


Idiocy.

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