[WSG] Re: about the SWF searchability and Improved Flash indexing by Google
SWF searchability FAQ http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplayer/articles/swf_searchability.html?devc on=f1http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplayer/articles/swf_searchability.html?devcon=f1 Improved Flash indexing http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/ This could probably going to be one of the top discussions on the web for the next weeks, months, years... being that it has already been one of the top discussions on the web during the last weeks, months, years... One part of me says: I hate Flash, I have been there a while, it's out of my abilities to master it. Another part of me says: it's fair that other web technologies also have their place on the web. And another part of me says: content is the king, so it's important to have access to any content in any format And yet another part of me says: but Flash seems not to be the right tool for delivering content (I may be really wrong...) I'm here, full of questions, having fears about _my_ future and the future of _the web_ PS: I love the collection of links for light reading that Russ send every week. PS2: excuse my english *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Does that mean we should drop the ABBR element because IE can't handle it properly? You have the answer: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/how-to_fix_the_ABBR_element.asp ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] accessibility/usability in a poll: check a radio button when focusing on a text input field
Hi. Probably this can't be done without (unobstrusive) Javascript. In simple polls, sometimes there is an Other option that is also provided with a text input so visitors can give some feedback on this other option. Like this: ( ) Option 1 (o) Option 2 ( ) Option 3 ( ) Other: [ I prefer this option because... ] The problem is: In that example, the user has filled in the text input on the Other option, but the selected radio is still the Option 2 So, when the user focus/clicks directly on the text input field, the corresponding radio button (Other) isn't selected. Then, he submits the poll, but because he didn't choose the Other option, he really didn't submit the option he thought he has chosen. The desired behavior (selecting the Other radio button when focusing on the text input field) will probably be easily achievable with some JS, right? But here I am, asking to this list if you know a better approach to this issue. Thanks. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Although since the beginning I wasn't convinced (that's why I started this thread) about using fieldset/legend for adding structural labels to non-form content (particularly, action links or site nav links), I'm still not convinced by exposed counter arguments against using it. I wasn't convinced at first because: - fieldset/legends are used in forms to group controls. This is common usage/practice, and even more, it's the usage recommended by the W3C, as some of you already remarked on this thread, .ç - couldn't find any research nor articles in favor or against this practice, particularly, when it concerns to possible issues on accessibility. I wasn't convinced by counter arguments because: - this isn't a CSS/JS issue. In fact, the idea is to have it as structural labels/markup, that will be probably invisible for sighted users. I'm not trying to achieve something fancy, although I have said that fieldset+legend looks fine, and more important, *helpful* for users when CSS is disabled (browser default CSS) And also, not convinced because of this other reasoning (hope it's not a fallacy): - if it validates (true) and - if the W3C doesn't explicitly says anything about not using fieldset/legend outside forms (¿true?) then - it could be used to add semantics or meaning in a new way outside forms. Let me add other real-world examples of using/combining HTML elements/attributes to create new semantics, all well known by us: - ul li a = a navigation menu - div + abbr + span + predifined classes = microformats (chunks of HTML with added meaning). As Jason stated above: divs are for separating components/sections of a page and can be semantically very strong, especially when given a meaningful class or id name Probably, at first, nobody though that by combining an unordered list of items with links could be seen as a navigation. In fact, before the Web Standards mindset change, not too many people were doing nav menus that way. And that's probably my point: trying to add new semantics and better accessibility with current HTML elements. Of course, if the fieldset/legend *really* hurts accessibility, print this thread, delete it and burn the printed copy to ashes. @Ted wrote: Go for the header and div. it's semantic and the header gives screen readers (and Opera) something to navigate with. Probably this is the most common way of doing it. But we all know the problems that arise when using headings: it's pretty hard to establish with level of heading should go for different navigational/secondary content on a page. If we think and rethink a webpage as a document, I really doubt that a navigation menu, or a skip to menu, or even the footer deserve a heading. Haven't you ever think that you were mis-using or wasting headings for the sake of semantics? If we take a look to manual/scientific books (a kind of document, probably the parent of a web pages), there are sometimes notes or boxes with little complementary content on the margins of the page. Although most of the times, they are marked up as a heading and a little paragraph, I've seen also some of this side notes as fieldset+legend+content. I'm not trying to say that fieldset/legends could be used to mark side notations of an article on webpages. Again, the primary use I can think is about adding structural labels. Hope someone could do further research regarding usability/accessibility, which is what should decide the benefits or cons of this proposed practice and what could lead us to have better common practices with current set of HTML elements. Thanks. On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Jason Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Julian, One more subtle point here (after taking this discussion into the office with guys that work with me) a point was made today that within DOM fieldset is part of the form hence you cannot reference a fieldset through DOM unless it is inside a form, so it is definitely a wrong approach to use it in that way, especially if you want to do fancy JavaScript stuff with it all. Hope this helps. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 5/21/08, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, there were a number of sites that began using fieldsets and legends outside of forms. You may still find documentation talking about how nice it is to work with. Unfortunately, fieldsets and legends are only for forms and you shouldn't use them otherwise. I've actually been dealing with this recently in the zemanta firefox plugin. This inserts a fieldset with a list of links for adding related content to blog posts. I logged a bug and they'll fix it in a future release. But it just goes to show this is a commonly misused pattern. People were also using fieldsets simply because they contain floats -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
[WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2]. The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3]. It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML. Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading (h*n* class=structural) even just a simple strong class=structural, and if necessary, hide them by CSS I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com. Example: div id=main-nav strong class=structuralMain navigation/strong !-- or h*n*Main navigation/h*n* -- ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /div So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this: fieldset id=main-nav legend class=structuralMain navigation/legend ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /fieldset Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so, it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense. fieldset id=actions legend class=structuralYou can do the following/legend ul liaCreate/a/li liaDelete/a/li liaEdit/a/li /ul /fieldset Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers): 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a form? 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural labels enhance accessibility)? 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this? Thanks. Julián. [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/ [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928 [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
@Jason and @Svip quoted: Svip wrote: I do disagree with Julián's approach. Also, if I may add, strong should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and only in a case where you have a strong point to make, and not a replacement for making bold text. I'm *not* using it as a replacing for making bold text. I use strong to make the text (the content of the structural markup) strong (emphasized). Have you take a look at NetRelations.se [1] source (or better, disable the CSS to see the structural markup in action). In fact, in my example, this strong element is child of a block element (div), so it's not only semantic (see below paragraph) but also valid [2] (inline element validate as child of a block element and sibling of another one). Back to the *semantics* of this: divstrongmain navigation/strong //.../div I repeat: that's semantic, for me: this text is strong, it's important, and no, it's not a paragraph or a heading (we could disagree). Yes, it would not be the most perfect semantic out there, but perfect semantics aren't achievable by current XHTML elements . Not everything out there fits perfect on being a paragraph, or a heading, or an unordered list or whatever (lets not talk about the semantics of div and span). I agree, web pages are documents, web pages should look as documents and should make sense with/without CSS enabled (dont' forget that CSS disabled is, in fact, browser default CSS, and not a totally reseted CSS). So, if reading a site with CSS disabled (default browser CSS), the semantics are given to us (sighted people) by visual formatting of elements (headings are bold, have bigger size, blockquotes are indented, etc), and structural mark-up adds semantic help for people with are visual impaired (but not blind), cognitive disabilities, or even, people using a device with no support for CSS. So, if reading a site with a screen reader, semantics are given by speech (pronunciation and/or help speech), and in consequence, a text marked by strong will be read with emphasis. Then, the structural markup (the strong) on my example has its semantics, it's important to be read loud. Again, no, it's not a heading (but could be), nor a paragraph (does every chunck of text out there on the web deserve to be a paragraph, if it isn't a heading nor a list)? Jason wrote: Needless to say that your application should progressively enhancehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancementthrough the presentation layers. the basic (X)HTML page should make total sense with everything (images, css, javascript and flash) switched off and nicely 'upgrade' as you add each new piece of technology to it. Adding structural markup is, in fact, progressive enhancement, as the research [3] I linked on the first post. The question here is: *how to markup the structural markup? which is the best way?* - using headings, as, for example, in 456bereastreet [4] ? - using strong, as, for example, NetRelations.se [1] ? - using the fieldset+legend approach as suggested in this thread? About the last one. Yes, the W3C tells about using fieldset and legend for adding structure to forms. So, case closed? It doesn't say anywhere (aparently) not to use them outside form and this, combined with the fact that both tags validates being outside, *this make it possible to rethink its semantics*. Of course, a research on accessibility/usability regarding using fieldsets and legends for structural markup should be done before claiming it hurts the user experience. Do you have facts about this affecting visitors negatively? Progressive enhancement is not just for sighted people. Accessibility can and should be enhanced if possible. Ideally, accessibility should be good (if not perfect) since the moment you start building a site, and not as an layer of enhancement added later, if there is time. Thanks for your replies (and excuse my english). [1] http://www.netrelations.se [2] http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg30004.html [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm [4] http://www.456bereastreet.com On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2]. The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3]. It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML. Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading (hn class=structural) even just a simple strong class=structural, and if necessary, hide them by CSS I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com. Example: div id=main-nav strong class=structuralMain navigation/strong
Re: [WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property
To look at the issue laterally, if your fixed-width table requires thatlong links wrap, why invoke the no-wrap rule at all? Obviously this snippet gives no clue as to the broader context, but what if you leave white-space at its default setting of normal - by omitting it? The context is: an HTML newsletter (designed for looking good at e-mail clients) that's also posted in Craigslist. The CSS rule is applied by craigslist.css, so there is no-way I can avoid that. Also, I can't apply inline styling to a elements because they are totally stripped out by CL. That's why I'm applying them to parent and child of the a elements (CL doesn't strip them). That's why i'm using nasty mark-up. Since you applied the white-space: normal to a span element which is not a block-level element it is ignored. By changing the span to a div *or* adding display:block to the span's style, you will get the effect you were expecting. Ok. Thanks for that one, Kepler! It worked fine. And yes that is the expected behaviour. 'Width' on table and td/th is more like 'min-width' (idem dito for 'height'). Thanks for that one, Philippe. See ya at TxP forums ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property
Hi all.
First: sorry, I'm double posting this on two lists so anyone can confirm
this (before reporting to Mozilla).
The issue is simple (you will see it better by just creating a testing
html with the snippet below):
- there is a white-space:nowrap property (in the stylesheet) applied to
the a element .
- then, that rule is override with some inline styling applied
(white-space:normal) on two elements: one that wraps the a elements and
one that is wrapped by the a element (that also contains the text).
- the text inside the a elements is a very very very long link.
- and the link is inside a table with a fixed with.
- every tested browser (but FF) honors both the width of the table and the
white-space:normal applied to both the parent and children of the a
elements.
- but Firefox just expands the table width and doesn't break the link in
multiple lines as expected.
The snippet:
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=es lang=es
head
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 /
titleTest/title
style type=text/css
table {background-color: #efefef;}
a {white-space:nowrap;}
/style
/head
body id=default
table width=175
tr
td
strong style=white-space:normal;
a href=#span
style=white-space:normal;color:green;Very very very very very very very
very very very very very very very long link/span/a
/strong
/td
/tr
/table
/body
/html
I have tested this in:
- Firefox 2.0.0.6 (both Win and Linux)
- IE6
- IE7
- Opera 9.22/Win
- Safari 3 beta.
The only one that isn't working as expected is Mozilla Firefox.
Please, if someone can confirm this issue as a bug and tell me exactly how
to report it to Mozilla (or even better, if someone has some experience
reporting bugs to Mozilla)...
Thanks and sorry for my english.
Julián
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[WSG] an inline element (inside a block element) sibling of another block element
Hi all, Suppose: div pI deserve to be a block/p aI don't deserve to be a block/a /div The a element has a block parent (div) as element. But it also has a sibling element (p), which is a block element. *Would you say it's valid?* I've been searching (not too much) but haven't find too much about this. In this article [1], the author talks about *anonymous block boxes*: For elements containing a mix of block-level elements and inline-level elements (or plain text), so-called anonymous block boxes are generated so that the principal block box then contains nothing but block boxes. [1] An his example is: div A line of plain text. pA paragraph./p Another line of text. /div which is slightly different to the one I posted. So, is it valid to mix inline and block elements (as siblings) as long as the inline elements are children of a block element? Thanks in advance and excuse my english. Julián Landerreche [1]: http://www.autisticcuckoo.net/archive.php?id=2005/01/12/block-vs-inline-2 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] advices for using headings more correctly
Hi. Thanks to everyone that give me advices about how to use headings (and how to dont mess nor waste them). and I hope to hear few more approachs about how to use headings consistently across homepage and internal pages. h1 AND WEBSITE NAME/TITLE I wouldn't recommend using an h1 for the website title. If you're concerned with identifying the website (for example to screen readers) then include the website name/title in the title element, e.g: I like this approach. So, the idea is: "dont waste an h1 for the website title in each page". I like that. It seems to be redundant to include the site name in every page in an h1. I'm looking at some pages where h1 for the website name is only used in the homepage. Then, in internal/content pages, the h1 usually goes for the section name or the article title. Of course, this second approach seems to need a little more development for the stylesheet. Thanks for the advices. Julin Andy Kirkwood|Motive wrote: Hi Julin, SEMANTICS EXTRACTOR Sometimes a view that approximates the semantics of the content can be useful. Fortunately the W3C have just such a tool: http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html . This will likely affirm Paul's point regarding an h3 as a 'parent' to an h2 element (i.e. don't). INDEX vs CONTENT PAGES It's also worth distinguishing between index and content pages when considering use of heading elements to impose structure. (An index page being an entry-point to a section of a website, for example a list of recent articles structured by topic.) For this type of page you might want to re-jig the hierarchies, e.g.: h1Articles/h1 h2Topic/h2 h3Article title/h3 h3Article title/h3 h3Article title/h3 h2Topic/h2 h3Article title/h3 h3Article title/h3 h3Article title/h3 If you have articles and guide on the same page, then this would be one of the rare instances where multiple h1 elements may be appropriate. h1 AND WEBSITE NAME/TITLE I wouldn't recommend using an h1 for the website title. If you're concerned with identifying the website (for example to screen readers) then include the website name/title in the title element, e.g: head titleContent title | Website name/title /head body h1Content title/h1 ... /body See 'Typical user scenario: 1-7 for an outline of how a screen reader may interpret page elements': http://www.standards-schmandards.com/index.php?2005/01/10/13-browsing-habits For more on the title element http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/meta.php Best regards,
[WSG] advices for using headings more correctly
I know this is a topic that often comes back to the list. Well, it comes back again. I'm having some troubles when trying to think how headings should be used, and I'm always thinking about simplify the site structure, but that simplification always seems to mean "strip out content". Summary of this e-mail: I want to know some good practices about using heading tags. Specially for the first three levels (h1, h2, h3) that are usually the most used tags for headings, and that I often find myself doing "malabares" to create a good site structure using headings. I'm a bit lost. Suppose this basic content: My site title ...navigation... My section name Latest Articles Article 1 Title paragraph Article 2 Title paragraph ..etc.. How will you mark it up? I think the usual (clasic) mark-up is h1My site titleh1 ...navigation... h2My section name/h2 h3Latest Articles/h3 h4Article 1 Title/h4 pparagraph/p h4Article 2 Title/h4 pparagraph/p But I would like to know if the following is a valid way too (i'm not talking about valid code, but valid content structure). h1My site titleh1 ...navigation... hr / h1My section name/h1 *h3Latest Articles/h3* h2Article 1 Title/h2 pparagraph/p h2Article 2 Title/h2 pparagraph/p Notice that I'm using h1 level headings twice, but *most important* is that i'm using an h3 heading *before* and h2 heading. Why? I want to give *more relevance to the "Articles Titles"* than to the "Latest Articles" heading, because that last one is more a kind of "separation heading". I think the "Latest articles" as a level 3 heading more like a visual/semantic/structure aid for users to know what is the content that comes below that heading. So, I find myself lost and this are some questions I have: 1. Should I mark-up "Latest Articles" with another tag that is not a heading tag? The problem here is that if I mark it up with anything else, it's probably that I will use stylesheet to "transform" it into a heading, and that is something I want to avoid. 2. Or should I keep a minor-level heading (h3 before h2) to mark it up? 3. Should I include My Site Title wrapped by a heading in all pages? Should I include My Section Name? 4. Or should I start directly with a h1/h2 applied to the most relevant content in the page (articles in this case)? 5. Should I avoid to repeat headings of the same level in the same page? 6. Anything else I should know about the world of headings? Thanks in advance and excuse my english. Julin
Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Rimantas Liubertas wrote: H1, which is spared for more appropriate usage — i.e. main header of the page - About us, Products, etc. So, wich tag would you use to put your company/site name if you use H1 to mark-up the section name? OK. the site name can be in the title tag, but I think we all want to display it also inside a tag (wich one if not H1?) inside the content (body). I use to display site/company name in H1 and use H2 to section names. So, regarding this thread, I think I would try: div id=header a href=home.htmimg src=logo.jpg alt=Company name //a h1Company name/h1 /div The problem here seems to be if the logo img also includes the company name... So your company name is showed twice (in the image and in the h1). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Hi all, I have been reading few articles (like http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html) about avoiding Verdana font. But I cant get the whole point in this issue. I mean: I understand that if you use a tiny font-size (like 10px or 0.64em or 64% applied to the body) you will get into problems with all fallback fonts (especialy with Times New Roman). But if you specify a higher font-size value, like 0.8em or 80%, you get a nice Verdana size and if the browser falls back to a font like Times New Roman, it is still very readable. So, please, can someone point me what am I missing about avoiding Verdana? Thanks in advance and excuse my english Julián Landerreche ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Page templates submitted for review (discard previous mail)
As long as I know, you shouldnt serve XHTML 1.1 as text/html. You should serve it as text/xml, or application/xhtml+xml I read it may be... dangerous! But, of course, I dont really understand what I'm talking about I'm just repeating what I have read on several sites. Julián Christian Montoya wrote: LOL, I can't help but laugh on this one. There's two tiny little links with absolute positioning placing them thousands of pixels to the RIGHT... and somehow they aren't lost on the page. They ought to be placed thousands of pixels to the TOP, so that they won't make a scrollbar appear. On 9/28/05, *Kenny Graham* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: semi-related: your main site (fastwrite.com http://fastwrite.com) scrolls horizontally forever in firefox ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] navigation: li display:inline or li float:left?
First, thanks to Paul for answering. Paul Sturgess wrote: Regarding your reverse-order menu... I think you've floated each list item right. What you need to do is float each item left but contain all the items in one div and float the div right, *not* the list items. I tried this, but I cant achieve to right-align the horizontal menu in Firefox. It works in IE6/Win: the horizontal menu is floated to the right, so it's right-aligned. But in FF... This is some kind of challenge: - try to right-align to the div#outer, the menu (ul#nav) in the example site made by Andrew Krespanis (http://leftjustified.net/site-in-an-hour/site/). If anyone try to do it following the idea suggested by Paul (read above), you will need to add a wrapping div (like div#menu) to the ul#nav, and float it to the right. I have tried that and dont have success yet... Maybe, it's *imposible* to right-align the menu in the GeneriCo design proposed by A. Krespanis by using floated lis and floated div (wrapping the menu). Is this a challenge or this is an easy thing to achieve? Thanks in advance. Julián Landerreche ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] font-family- system value
Felix Miata wrote:
In control panel open the fonts folder and double click 8514SYS.FON. I
think that's what you are looking at, AFAIK included with all doze
versions back at least as far as Win95.
The weird thing is that I dont have any 8514SYS.FON in my font folder,
nor any system.ttf nor similar font. I have checked all the fonts in
Fonts folder but there is no one that looks as the system font...
System font appears in my Character Map!!
A mistery.
http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/Font/font-system.html
The font used in the URL that you gave me is the one I want to use. I
have checked the CSS of that page. The rule is:
body{
font-family: system;
}
I will use the same rule, but with some alternative fonts... and then I
will check it out in all possible systems.
Thanks Felix.
And excuse my poor english
JL
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Re: [WSG] font-family- system value
Felix Miata wrote: Which system font? In CSS2 CSS3 system fonts have special meaning: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/Font/fonts-system.html http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#font-shorthand http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-fonts-20020802/#font-shorthand I talk about a font named System... You can see an screenshot of the font System in the Character Map: http://www.midi-midi.com.ar/img/systemfont.jpg do everybody have this font? is it a default in all OS system? (or at least... in MS Windows) It doesn have a TT (TrueType) icon nor a O icon (I dont know what the O means...). I like this System font... it is very pixelated... I think this is the font useb by windows when you run out of RAM memory and you get those black and with dialogues like Violation in -0. Exception blablabla... Ignore / Retry Any advice? BTW, thanks Felix . ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] font-family- system value
Hi, i'm testing some fonts in a new design, and I want to know is if it safe to use the System font value. In the character map (WinXP), the System font doesnt show any icon (nor the T nor the O ring). The System font is the one that usually is displayed when your (old) computer runs out of RAM memory and you get an horrible dialog box with Ignore or Cancel buttons. This System font doesnt seems to have a bold variant, nor a small-caps variants. But I like and *I want to use it*. My question is: ¿is it safe? ¿Is this System font in all systems (Win, Linux, Mac) or at least in all Windows machines? Thanks in advance Julián ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] position:relative applied to div with same class
Hi, I am trying to use position:relative applied to a div, and then, position an element with position:absolute ((the tag of the element is nested in the div class=product) The div has a class name (product) that isnt unique, it is used in various divs in the same page. The problem is that Mozilla Firefox seems to position the absolut-positioned element always relative to the first div class=product and not to the parent div of the absolut-positioned element. But IE6 does it as I want it: the absolut-positioned element is always positioned relative to its parent div class=product Wich one is correct? and how can I solve this? Thanks in advance and excuse my english. JL ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Pure CSS Pop-ups using images... but as background-images in span
M,
I think the solution is here...
http://www.tanfa.co.uk/css/articles/pure-css-popups-bug.asp
but I cant get it to work yet in IE.
My set of rules are
div.maincont a {
position: relative;
}
div.maincont a span {
display: none;
}
div.maincont a:hover span {
text-indent: 0;
display:block;
position: absolute;
top: 0;
left: 225px;
width: 320px;
height: 425px;
padding: 0;
margin: 0;
z-index: 10;
background: url(tsunami_9.jpg) left center no-repeat;
}
any advice?
Thanks in advance and excuse my english.
JL
Julián Landerreche wrote:
Hi,
I'm playing with both Pure CSS Popup technics developed by Eric Meyer.
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo.html
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo2.html
I'm wondering if there is any issue by doing a merging between both
technics.
I want to show popup images, but not by using img tags (the second
technic).
So, my idea is to add an empty (or not) span tag inside the a tag.
Example:
a href=http://www.mydomain.com/; Link text spantext/span/a
Then, in the stylesheet, I add something like this:
a span {
display: none;
background: url(image.jpg) left center no-repeat;
}
a:hover span {
display: block;
position: absolute;
top: 0;
left: 225px;
width: 320px;
height: 425px;
z-index: 10;
background: url(image.jpg) left center no-repeat;
}
I'm testing it and it seems to work flawlessly in Mozilla Firefox 1.0.6
But it doesnt work... guess where... in IE 6!!
Why it doesnt work? What am I doing wrong?
It seems to be exactly the SAME technic used by Eric Meyer in the Pure
CSS Popup technics.
Thanks in advance.
Julián Landerreche
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Pure CSS Pop-ups using images... but as background-images in span
Hi,
Well,
Now, I have understood the solution.
I need to add a property to the a:hover rule.
a:hover {
border: none;
}
Voilà!
Now it works in IE6...
Weird, weird bug...
Julián
Julián Landerreche wrote:
Hi,
I'm playing with both Pure CSS Popup technics developed by Eric Meyer.
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo.html
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo2.html
I'm wondering if there is any issue by doing a merging between both
technics.
I want to show popup images, but not by using img tags (the second
technic).
So, my idea is to add an empty (or not) span tag inside the a tag.
Example:
a href=http://www.mydomain.com/; Link text spantext/span/a
Then, in the stylesheet, I add something like this:
a span {
display: none;
background: url(image.jpg) left center no-repeat;
}
a:hover span {
display: block;
position: absolute;
top: 0;
left: 225px;
width: 320px;
height: 425px;
z-index: 10;
background: url(image.jpg) left center no-repeat;
}
I'm testing it and it seems to work flawlessly in Mozilla Firefox 1.0.6
But it doesnt work... guess where... in IE 6!!
Why it doesnt work? What am I doing wrong?
It seems to be exactly the SAME technic used by Eric Meyer in the Pure
CSS Popup technics.
Thanks in advance.
Julián Landerreche
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Firefox float/clear:both ¿bug?
Hi all, my website (in development) seems to have a circunstancial bug in Mozilla Firefox. I have a floated div, followed by an empty div with clear:both applied. Then, it comes the content. But, the magic of the empty div doesnt seems to work (so, the div float isnt cleared in both sides). The content appears next to the floated div... following the shape of the content div. -screenshot: http://www.efectoscluster.com.ar/images/float_bug_ff/firefox_bug.jpg but.. read this: I have the Web Developer Toolbar for FF installed... and if I hide/show it, my website is suddenly fixed, and the bug dissapears!!! And my website is rendered as it should be. -screenshot (webdeveloper toolbar showed): http://www.efectoscluster.com.ar/images/float_bug_ff/firefox_webdeveloper_showed.jpg but... read this: if I do a total refresh (ctrl + F5) of my site, the bug appears again! AND in IE6/Win, my website is rendered perfectly, as it should be: -screenshot http://www.efectoscluster.com.ar/images/float_bug_ff/iexplorer.jpg If you want to check it in your browser, this is the URL: http://www.efectoscluster.com.ar/index.php Please, can anyone reveal me this mistery? Thanks in advance and excuse my english. Julián Landerreche ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox float/clear:both ¿bug?
Mmmm.
I have discovered that it has something to do with some properties in
the class clearboth in the CSS
My CSS:
.clearboth {
clear: both;
}
div.clearboth {
width: 0;
height: 0;
line-height: 0;
font-size: 0px;
}
If I remove the second rule (or remove the set of properties), the page
is displayed correctly.
BUT I still cant understand why swaping the visibility of Web Developer
Toolbar, it gets fixed.
For those that cannot see the bug, please check the screenshots in the
first e-mail of this thread.
Thanks, and any ilumination is appreciated.
JL
Julián Landerreche wrote:
Hi all,
my website (in development) seems to have a circunstancial bug in
Mozilla Firefox.
I have a floated div, followed by an empty div with clear:both
applied. Then, it comes the content.
But, the magic of the empty div doesnt seems to work (so, the div
float isnt cleared in both sides).
The content appears next to the floated div... following the shape of
the content div.
-screenshot:
http://www.efectoscluster.com.ar/images/float_bug_ff/firefox_bug.jpg
but.. read this:
I have the Web Developer Toolbar for FF installed... and if I
hide/show it, my website is suddenly fixed, and the bug
dissapears!!! And my website is rendered as it should be.
-screenshot (webdeveloper toolbar showed):
http://www.efectoscluster.com.ar/images/float_bug_ff/firefox_webdeveloper_showed.jpg
but... read this:
if I do a total refresh (ctrl + F5) of my site, the bug appears again!
AND in IE6/Win, my website is rendered perfectly, as it should be:
-screenshot
http://www.efectoscluster.com.ar/images/float_bug_ff/iexplorer.jpg
If you want to check it in your browser, this is the URL:
http://www.efectoscluster.com.ar/index.php
Please, can anyone reveal me this mistery?
Thanks in advance and excuse my english.
Julián Landerreche
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Firefox float/clear:both ¿bug?
If I remove the second rule (or remove the set of properties), the page is displayed correctly. No, it doesnt display correctly It seems that the empty div must have some content (like .) to clear the floated div. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] correct use of BR tag
Hi, this is a doubt I have always when I'm going to use the br / tag. Should it be an space after/before (or both) the tag or should I leave no-spaces? Examples: 1. The cat isbr /in the kitchen (no spaces between the tag and the words) 2. The cat is br /in the kitchen (one space before the tag) 3. The cat isbr / in the kitchen (one space after the tag) 4. The cat is br / in the kitchen (one space before and after the tag) Wich one do you think its more correct? In W3CSchools I have seen they use the example 1 when explaining the use of br / tag. Thanks in advance and excuse my english. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Pure CSS Pop-ups using images... but as background-images in span
Hi,
I'm playing with both Pure CSS Popup technics developed by Eric Meyer.
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo.html
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo2.html
I'm wondering if there is any issue by doing a merging between both
technics.
I want to show popup images, but not by using img tags (the second
technic).
So, my idea is to add an empty (or not) span tag inside the a tag.
Example:
a href=http://www.mydomain.com/; Link text spantext/span/a
Then, in the stylesheet, I add something like this:
a span {
display: none;
background: url(image.jpg) left center no-repeat;
}
a:hover span {
display: block;
position: absolute;
top: 0;
left: 225px;
width: 320px;
height: 425px;
z-index: 10;
background: url(image.jpg) left center no-repeat;
}
I'm testing it and it seems to work flawlessly in Mozilla Firefox 1.0.6
But it doesnt work... guess where... in IE 6!!
Why it doesnt work? What am I doing wrong?
It seems to be exactly the SAME technic used by Eric Meyer in the Pure
CSS Popup technics.
Thanks in advance.
Julián Landerreche
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Pure CSS Pop-ups using images... but as background-images in span
Hi,
Well,
Now, I have understood the solution.
I need to add a property to the a:hover rule.
a:hover {
border: none;
}
Voilà!
Now it works in IE6...
Weird, weird bug...
Julián
Julián Landerreche wrote:
Hi,
I'm playing with both Pure CSS Popup technics developed by Eric Meyer.
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo.html
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/popups/demo2.html
I'm wondering if there is any issue by doing a merging between both
technics.
I want to show popup images, but not by using img tags (the second
technic).
So, my idea is to add an empty (or not) span tag inside the a tag.
Example:
a href=http://www.mydomain.com/; Link text spantext/span/a
Then, in the stylesheet, I add something like this:
a span {
display: none;
background: url(image.jpg) left center no-repeat;
}
a:hover span {
display: block;
position: absolute;
top: 0;
left: 225px;
width: 320px;
height: 425px;
z-index: 10;
background: url(image.jpg) left center no-repeat;
}
I'm testing it and it seems to work flawlessly in Mozilla Firefox 1.0.6
But it doesnt work... guess where... in IE 6!!
Why it doesnt work? What am I doing wrong?
It seems to be exactly the SAME technic used by Eric Meyer in the Pure
CSS Popup technics.
Thanks in advance.
Julián Landerreche
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Border-style: double Experiments
Hi all, well, I think this is my first e-mail to this great list (or at least, one of the first ones). I have been reading since more than 1 year, and I have learned a lot. I have been experimenting with double borders in CSS. They are really cool. Lot of weird/cool effects can be achieved by using double borders and playing with margins, paddings, floatings and backgrounds... lot of fun. Well, I'am far away to finish the site but I want to share (and show) my experiment (that maybe has some mutuations until I finish the site). --- http://www.efectoscluster.com.ar/index.php -- I have only tested it in Mozilla Firefox 1.0.5/Win and IE6/Win. I really dont care other browsers... ;) (the true is : dont have any other browser installed, and here in Argentina, most people uses IE6, but thats another story...). Thanks! Julián Landerreche Midi-midi | Servicio técnico especializado para músicos Efectos Cluster | efectos analógicos e insumos para músicos ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] choosing encoding, charset and using special characters
Hi all, my name is Julián, i'm from Buenos Aires, Argentina. I have read this great tutorial (http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/tutorial-char-enc/) recommended by WSG . The article makes things more clearly to me, but not totally.. I feel this topic (choosing encoding and using special characters) is a difficult one to be understood by newbies in standards (as I am) and not newbies. But I think it´s a bit difficult for me, because I write in spanish, so I usually need to use special characters like é, á or ñ. I have choose to use the ISO-8859-1 as charset for my webpages. And I use to code special characters with html entity references. Example: é = eacute; ú = uacute; ñ = ntilde; etc. Well, let me ask a few questions: 1) Question: Is there a way to use special characters directly in the code? I would like to use directly é or ú or ñ, and not to code them as html entities references. Hey, dont think I'm a lazy boy: just suppose this situation: if I have a blog, I cannot expect that people (who post comments on my blog) knows how to use html entities referencies. Surely, they will prefer to type the special characters (é, ú, á). I wont like that if they use special characters in a post, then the post cant correctly displayed (i.e. by showing those weird characters like the black ? or é or ú ...) 2) I have seen a lot of webpages that directly use the special character and dont code them as html entities. This pages are displayed correctly. Question: Is this a good or bad practice (to use special characters in code, instead of entities)? 3. In Google results, I found that those special characters arent always correctly displayed. Example: my webpage title in a two Google searchs result. i). servicio técnico especializado para músicos (b!) a. encoding: UTF-8 b. charset: ISO-8859-1 (from a page managed by Textpattern) ii). servicio técnico especializado para músicos a. encoding: ISO-5-8859-1 b. charset: ISO-8859-1 (from a page managed by other script, or from hardcoded pages) Question: Is there a way to force or override the encoding (not the charset) directly from the page code? I think that my textpattern managed pages should have ISO-8850-1 encoding. (This is a question I also must do in textpattern forums, because I dont know why pages managed by TXP have UTF-8 encoding, as there isnt any any line in my whole site headers that shows utf-8) 3. If I change to UTF-8... a. wich are the advantages / disvantages? b. I have test it in few of my pages - all special characters (not encoded as entities) are incorrectly displayed... yucks! -- Well, I think that's all, just to start. I would like to read more resources about encoding and charset, and also read experiences from the people of this list. Y también me gustaría leer experiencias de gente que habla (y escribe páginas) en español, ¿hay alguien en la lista? Gracias a todos! Thank you! Excuse my poor english! Julián Landerreche Buenos Aires, Argentina www.midi-midi.com.ar (not finished yet) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards, HTML email and Hotmail
Hi, you can find useful information here: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/cssemail/ Mannequin Ian Fenn wrote: Hi, My client is so pleased with their new standards-based website that they want to use the design as the basis of their monthly HTML email. I've embedded the stylesheet into the html source and made a few other changes and all seems well in Outlook and a few other email clients. The trouble I'm having is that Hotmail seems to remove all stylesheet references to external images so that global navigation disappears. Is there a way round this or do I have no choice but to code the page the old-fashioned way? All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media Ltd http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] discussion at juicy studio: It's all in the MIME
After reading this (http://www.juicystudio.com/all-in-the-mime.asp) my beliefs in XHTML has been shaked. What is this all about? Is it a bad practice to serve XHTML as text/html? is it harmful? what are the disvantages? The thuth is I cant understand what is this all about, and I didnt really understood the whole article (for example, what's that tag soup expression means?). After reading the article (and some related articles) I feel i'm doing things in the wrong way (because I serve xhtml as text/html, without even really understand what does it mean). I'm newbie in web-standards practice, but I have strong beliefs in standards and i like to do the things in the right way. I hope to hear clarifing and reassuring words from all the list, and specially from the gurus of WSG. regards Mannequin pd: excuse my poor english. Paul Farrell wrote: I have been following this discussion (belatedly) It's all in the MIME http://www.juicystudio.com/all-in-the-mime.asp first paragraph: There have been a lot of articles recently about web standards; in particular, using XHTML and serving it as text/html. Personally, I'm not that bothered whether people serve XHTML as text/html, but think it's important that authors understand why this is wrong. Although I'm not bothered about content developers serving XHTML as text/html, I don't agree with people encouraging content developers to deliver XHTML as text/html. I wondered what other memebrs on the list thought about it and its implications? with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd. Firstly, as a new member, I can't believe it took me so long to find WSG. As I understand it, the problem with serving XHTML as text/html is that an user agents view the code as 'tag soup', and therefore present malformed code normally. I think that as long as a developer regularly validates their code, they can continue to serve XHTML as text/html until MSIE supports application/xhtml+xml. Once again, great list. Although I find myself sitting here immersed in these email when I really should be working. Regards Paul Farrell ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
