[WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

2009-11-01 Thread Kat


Gday all,

We're all agreed that tables should only be used for tabular data, and 
should be marked up properly for accessibility.



*WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 links about table accessibility and specific markup*

WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 5.2 says For data tables that have two or more 
logical levels of row or column headers, use markup to associate data 
cells and header cells. [Priority 1]

http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/#tech-table-structure
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#identifying-table-rows-columns

And in a working draft for WCAG 2.0, HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0*, 
Section 7.5,  Identifying groups of rows: Use thead to group repeated 
table headers, tfoot for repeated table footers, and tbody for other 
groups of rows. (optional)

http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_rowgroup

Section 7.6 Identifying groups of columns: Use the colgroup and col 
elements to group columns. (optional)

http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_colgroup

Noting, that both are optional, under WCAG 2.0 (working draft).


*XHTML Basic 1.1*
Now that there are more and more handheld devices being used to access 
the web, I have been thinking that some websites might benefit from 
moving to a different markup: XHTML Basic 1.1, particularly if the 
majority of their user-base are on handheld devices. This way they can 
serve up something the majority of their audience can use and also allow 
access through a desk- or lap-top device.



*Questions*
XHTML Basic 1.1 does not include thead, tbody and tfoot, along with col 
and colgroup, which is mentioned under WCAG 1.0 and WCAG 2.0 for 
acessible complex data tables.

http://www.w3.org/2007/09/dtd-comparison.html

Can a complex table be accessible without these elements, or do we, as 
developers, accept the loss of accessibility (both on a practical and 
compliance level) on data tables with the advent of the mobile web**?


As much as I might like to support the argument that complex tables 
should never appear on mobiles, I'm not sure it's realistic. There may 
be a time when a complex table in XHTML Basic 1.1 is served up to both 
handheld, and desk- and lap- top devices. In that event, what can the 
developer do?


Kat

* Wow, that's a working draft from 2003, SIX years ago. Can that be true?

** Not my preferred option.


Is this too complex for a Monday morning?



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Re: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

2009-11-01 Thread Kat

Steve Green wrote:

I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience complex data
tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because they have great
difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking them up perfectly
semantically doesn't help.

If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are read
sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no sense of
the structure and relationships with the column and row headings.

If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row headers are
read in addition to the cell contents. This provides structural information
but the user has to mentally separate the header and cell data before adding
them to their mental model. This is difficult enough with simple tables but
I don't recall even highly proficient screen reader users successfully
navigating complex tables during user testing.

What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit from
the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I can't think
of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. search engines, news
scrapers etc) that programmatically access websites that would benefit from
this either.



Thanks for that Steve! :)

Then would the answer, perhaps, be to give a small succinct paragraph 
about the tabular data, with the most important points (if they exist), 
and perhaps a link to contact details if the user wanted to know more? 
And not worry about thead, tfoot, tbody, col, colgroup, etc? Would that 
be an acceptable accessibility alternative?


Kat



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[WSG] Embedding XML in HTML

2007-03-02 Thread Kat


Gday,

I don't understand what's going on:

1. I cannot find any xml element in the HTML 4.01 standard

2. I cannot find any reference to the datafld attribute for span.
(Other than being reserved for possible future use: 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/dtd.html)


Both of these are mentioned on this W3Schools XML tutorial site:
http://www.w3schools.com/xml/xml_data_island.asp

Is what the W3Schools site discusses as per the standards, and if so, 
where is it mentioned on the W3C?


Kat
NB. I am, of course, assuming that when W3Schools says HTML, it means 
exactly that, and not XHTML.






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[WSG] Validating and validators

2006-03-16 Thread Kat

Gday,

For a good while now I have been using A Real Validator to validate my 
html offline.


Recently, I went back and did a quick search to see what sort of 
validators are around, and I came across a couple of interesting things:


1. What are your opinions of SGML-parsers vs linters? Do both have their 
place? Do they have different roles?


2. Is Validome an SGML parser or linter?

3. How accurate do you believe is Validome's statement of errors?
http://www.validome.org/lang/en/errors/ALL

4. What is the most successful way in ensuring correct and valid html 
and or xhtml (considering different validators have different errors)?


Kat

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[WSG] AIMIA Awards

2006-02-27 Thread Kat


Gday,

I find this list filled with dynamic, inspirational people. I come away 
being motivated and energised. I love youse guys. :)


Today, I came across AIMIA (Australian Interactive Media Industry 
Association - http://www.aimia.com.au/) that are having their 12th 
Annual AIMIA awards. Is anyone a member of this group? Does anyone know 
anything about them? Is anyone a finalist?


I had a look at some of the finalists and although they seem to require 
WCAG Priority 1 Accessibility, to reach that, don't your websites need 
to actually validate (at least some of their finalists don't)? Have I 
misunderstood?


I rather think it's a good idea - but I think it misses a certain 
something (tableless design, validation, accessibility, etc). There are 
so many designers/developers on this list (and elsewhere) doing so many 
amazing things - why don't they ever get recognised for the good things 
they do? They deserve it more!! Would there be a way to give them the 
recognition they deserve?


Kat



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[WSG] What is ... XHTML Questions

2006-02-23 Thread Kat

G'day,

I had written a huge email with a ton of questions, that I realised many 
really boiled down to one:


How did that one guy, 'beandizzy', pass all three tests?
http://www.goer.org/Journal/2003/Apr/index.html#results

How do I replicate those efforts?

Oh and:

1.What is the difference between the doctype and the standard namespace? 
What does this namespace provide: 'html 
xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lan=en ' that isn't provided 
by the doctype?


2.blockquoteAn XML declaration is not required in all XML documents; 
however XHTML document authors are strongly encouraged to use XML 
declarations in all their documents. Such a declaration is required when 
the character encoding of the document is other than the default UTF-8 
or UTF-16 and no encoding was determined by a higher-level 
protocol./blockquote

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/

Is the XML declaration the XML prolog: ?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8 ?
So if your character encoding is UTF-8, thus it is OK not to have this 
XML prolog? Or should that last 'and' have been an 'or' in the specs: 
Such a declaration is required when the character encoding of the 
document is other than the default UTF-8 or UTF-16 *OR* no encoding was 
determined by a higher-level protocol ? Thus if the server sends the 
character encoding as UTF-8, then this prolog is not needed?


Kat

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[WSG] A legitimate case for pop-ups

2006-02-20 Thread Kat


I never thought the day would come when there actually was a legitimate 
use for pop-ups!


It's legitimate to use pop-ups, if a court judge orders you to :)
http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,18214048%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html

Kat :)

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Re: [WSG] occam's razor again - was [ TARGET in 4.01 Strict ]

2006-02-16 Thread Kat

blqberi wrote:




I agree, but just how low do you go?..  on my current job I maintain my dept's 
intranet site... things are so painfully simple a 2 year old could use the site 
with ease... unfortunately the adults using the site still have difficulty, or 
maybe these are less than ordinary users... I dunno.  I think that in making it 
too simple it takes away the point of literacy for some... i.e. they don't 
attempt to learn.

 



This is an extremely common reaction I receive when I complain about 
usability issues to individuals within companies about their website. 
Oh, you must be a moron. I don't know why I persist in telling people 
the difficulties I experience in using their sites. If you receive an 
email from a user letting you know of their difficulties, be thankful 
and polite. Don't in any way indicate that they are a moron because that 
was a rare occasion, and most users will never tell you, they just won't 
shop with you again.


Simply because you work with it, and you know it, doesn't mean that 
other people do. They have a different mental model than you do. They 
think differently. They perceive differently.


Example in case: Take the current Adelaide Fringe Website. 
http://www.adelaidefringe.com.au/ticketing/Home.aspx
Who is this website for? The organisers have a mixed mental model of 
themselves, the caterers, the volunteers and the performers. The actual 
audience is left last in their organising frame of mind. They perceived 
the audience as buying tickets.


But the audience comes to the website to find out about performers and 
events, and their only chance of using this system is to click on the 
link labeled Tickets and Merchandise. on the bottom left. I didn't 
perceive myself as wanting to buy a ticket (just yet). I perceived 
myself as wanting to find out information about who was performing, what 
events were on.


I emailed them with the task I was attempting to accomplish and the 
difficulties I had with it, and I got the same reaction: Oh, you must 
be a moron.


I was fortunate enough to know from other sources that a particular 
performer was coming to Adelaide to perform, and found out the 
information that way. The Adelaide Fringe failed me totally.


So it's not a matter of people being stupid. It's a matter of *you* 
understanding how *they* work. If they can't use your website, you 
aren't communicating successfully. You aren't selling your ideas across. 
The onus is on you.


Kat


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[WSG] Questions about Data Tables and Accessibility

2006-02-02 Thread Kat


Hehehe

I found something productive to do!

For a Good While Now I have been covering my eyes with my hands and 
singing la la la at the top of my lungs to avoid the fact I don't 
really know how to construct accessible data tables.


So I sat down with an old data table that has another nested, and tried 
to make that more semantic. Despite researching things, I still have a 
few questions (some are easier than others) :


1. when abbreviating number to no. does the period belong within the 
abbreviation element?

   eg. abbr title=numberno./abbr or abbr title=numberno/abbr.

2. How to tell when one table or two tables is better? When is it better 
to split up the data?
  What happens if you have two columns with the same name? Is this bad 
table structure?
 
  I have two colgroups that contain the same information,
  just placing the information in different units. Should I split that 
into one table for one unit,

  and another table for the next unit?

3. Are colgroups only for presentation or is there some way to use them to
  demarcate which data has closer relationships? Are there ids, headers 
or something involved?
  How is it done? Is there some sort of way that someone using the 
accessibility features can choose one or other

  colgroup?

4. In what order do headers go on table cell data?  Does this matter?

5. Does it cause difficulty if you snub a caption because the table is 
the main (only) element in the page, and thus what would be the table 
caption really belongs in the level 1 heading?


6. If you have a table-header that spans two rows - is it seen as the 
table header for both rows?
  This would mean that there would be a double-up with table cells 
having the same headers. The data is correct
  because both sets of data in each row do apply to that particular 
table header. How do I put that in a straightforwards
  fashion to reduce the odds of confusing someone using the 
accessibility features?


  For example:

thead
  tr
 thHeadings/th
 thA/th
 thB/th
 thC/th
  /tr
/thead
tbody
tr
  td rowspan=2 scope=rowTable Row Header/td
  tdData 1a/td
  tdData 1b/td
  tdData 1c/td
/tr

tr
  tdData 2a/td
  tdData 2b/td
  tdData 2c/td
/tr
/tbody

7. What is the best thing to do? To place scope or headers, or scope and 
headers?


I will appreciate any questions answered,

Thank you :)

Kat



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[WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media

2006-01-30 Thread Kat


In the AustralianIT there is an article about the new redesign of the 
Sunbeam website (www.sunbeam.com.au). I looked it up and it seems to fit 
Joe Clark's description of a Failed Redesign. 
http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,17957834%5E24169%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html


My question is: is web-standards really considered a part of the 
professionalism of web people considering that even the IT media 
(AustralianIT) ignores this aspect?


Admittedly, it comes from the same people who confused AJAX with the 
Dutch Ajax Football team :)


Maybe there is a member of Clear Blue Day here on this list and can 
explain why they have chosen what they have?


Kat



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Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media

2006-01-30 Thread Kat

Kat wrote:



Maybe there is a member of Clear Blue Day here on this list and can 
explain why they have chosen what they have?




I sent an email with questions about two of their decisions : why 
table-based layout and why not include character encoding?


Their answer  was that they used the table-based layout because they did 
not like the way style sheets render in IE, and that encoding is not 
utilised for search engine reasons.


Does the character-encoding in your web-page reduce your search engine 
positioning?




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[WSG] Semantic Addresses (WAS br the correct use)

2006-01-14 Thread Kat


This is what happens when uni students are on holidays and have nothing 
defined set to do! ;)


Lachlan Hunt, Peter Firminger et al. was talking about the use of br / 
for addresses, (and I am not saying they are right or wrong!!!), I just 
want to explore an idea I had while reading their posts.


I've been thinking about marking up addresses, since the question came 
up yesterday. I have checked the archives, and either my search-fu is 
weak, or I can't find this material in it. Some have said some of what I 
have also said here. I am not deliberatly plagiarising them, as I wrote 
those bits before I had finished reading all the archives on this 
subject, that I could find. :) But I did read the archives


Jukka K Korpela talks about it a bit 
(http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/address.html) but makes his 
decision on presentation, rather than semantics. Should we make 
decisions about mark-up based on default presentation for non-css 
browsers? There are hints towards what I'm suggesting in the responses 
to Dan Cederholm's Simplequiz 
(http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2004/08/04/sq.html).


What I actually am saying:
Addresses used to have punctuation at the end of every line, to denote 
the end of that line, until the habit faded out, and Australia Post 
complained that their machines got confused. (Good example of the end 
user having to change their ways to suit service provider!) I think that 
when we read addresses aloud to others, we respect the former 
punctuation and add pauses, so that the listener can know that one part 
has finished and we are beginning another. Taking Lachlan Hunt's 
example, he has marked up the address as a paragraph with line breaks, 
and delimited by commas. But woudn't that semantically be the same as :  
p123 George Street, Sydney NSW 2000, Australia,/p which is 
essentially a comma delimited list?


I think that an address can be considered as a list of instructions, in 
a specific order, to find our location, or to send to a location we can 
find. Kind of like a recipe.


Step one: Make sure you send the package to me, and not to another 
member of my household.

Step Two: My household is number 123 on George Street,
Step Three: Which is in the suburb of Sydney,
Step Four: within the state of NSW,
Step Five: with a postcode of 2000,
Step  Six:  and that is all in Australia.

If we were either Adrian Mole or JK Rowling, we may add further steps 
for The World, The Universe.


Taking Lachlan Hunt's example (with the addition of a name):
p
  Joe Bloggs,br
  123 George Street,br
  Sydney NSW 2000br
  Australia
/p

Couldn't that be marked up something like (the name could be changed to 
a heading or something):


ol class=street-address
  li class=nameJoe Bloggs/li
  li class=street123 George Street/li
  li class=suburbSydney/li
  li class=stateNSW/li
  li class=countryAustralia/li
/ol

And with a little bit of CSS, make it look 'right' (remove bullets, 
positioning, etc)?


What do you think (other than I should find myself something more 
productive to do)?


I really enjoy reading and being part of this list, it makes me think 
about all sorts of things I would never have given any consideration to 
previously! So thank you all! :)


Kat

NB. I mean no offence or harm by this to anyone, and I'm sorry if it 
causes any offence. I know that this kind of discussion can become 
heated, and has done in the past, and that some have very strong ideas 
about how this is best done. I'm not criticising anything, I want to ask 
people on this list, who I greatly admire, and respect, their opinions.


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Re: Re; Re: [WSG] br the correct use.

2006-01-13 Thread Kat


I want to ask something that's on the same line as the original poster, 
but a little bit in another direction.

Sorry!




But, for example, marking up a postal address, a poem or something 
where line breaks are semantically important, then the use of br is ok.


p
   123 George Street,br
   Sydney NSW 2000br
   Australia
/p



For poems and addresses, wouldn't the pre element be OK as well? 
Particularly for poems where the use of space both before and after is 
important?


so:
pre
  123 George Street,
  Sydney NSW 2000
  Australia
/pre

?

Kat

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[WSG] HTML Numeric and Named Entities

2006-01-10 Thread Kat


I am aware that #151; is an incorrect character entity for the em dash, 
that the correct entity is #8212;.


But I was mucking about on the W3C Character entity references in HTML 4
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/sgml/entities.html

and noted that the named entity references are now linked to the decimal 
character entity reference, so that mdash refers to


#8212;.


Is it safe to use the named references that formerly refered to the control 
characters?

If you have used these named references in the past, so long as you have(update to) the correct character encoding, 
do these automatically refer to the correct entities?


Kat




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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

2005-12-19 Thread Kat


In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over  
again … and … the core of the solution to that problem. When we  
build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just  
very little work has been done trying to capture and document them.  
That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do.


 I've started with site level patterns.

I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the  
patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and  
contribute your thoughts and experience




Gday,

Keep in mind I am just a student, but isn't something that describes it 
at site level more a framework rather than a pattern?


From Wikipedia A design pattern isn't a finished design that can be 
transformed directly into code 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_%28computer_programming%29; it is a 
description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in 
many different situations. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29

Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic complex 
issues, such as dynamic binding?


But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store. It's 
quite specific for a particular area.


Again from Wikipedia, a Framework can be considered as the processes 
and technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the skeleton upon 
which various objects are integrated for a given solution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework

So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton like 
which allowed integration with other various objects, and thus more 
framelike?


Point out to me where I have gone wrong.

Kat




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[WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms

2005-12-13 Thread Kat

Gday,

I was writing in my blog and was using acronyms and abbreviations and I 
realised I didn't know something about the right way of doing things, 
and I'm fairly confident someone here would.


This may be off topic because it's a question of accessible and/or 
semantics. It may be also a little bit persnickety.


I understand the difference between acronym and abbreviation, in that an 
acronym is pronounced as a word, is treated as a word, while an 
abbreviation is pronounced as a succession of letters.


While I was writing, I definately used an abbreviation, created from the 
first letter of the phrase, eg, HTML. In this case it was one of my uni 
subjects, ISMR (Information Systems Maintenance and Re-engineering.)


But in the next paragraph, I used the same convention of taking the 
first letter of each word in the phrase to create AIM (Accessible 
Interactive Multimedia).


The Question:

Since it can be an acronym, should I mark it up as an acronym, or should 
I stick to the convention I used earlier in the page to refer to other 
subjects and use abbreviation? It can be pronounced as the word 'aim' or 
as each individual letters.


What makes more sense from the accessibility point of view?
What makes more sense from the semantic point of view?

Or is this just a personal choice and has absolutely no effect 
whatsoever on the end result? Am I over analysing this to death?


Kat
I have this feeling there's an important point I'm missing somewhere.




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RE: [WSG] accessible and stylish forms

2004-05-27 Thread Kat Rasmussen
Title: Message




This 
might be the one: http://www.aplus.co.yu/dots/109/

  
  -Original Message-
  I 
  saw a web site that described how to create fully accessible forms and make 
  them look purty. Does anyone know where that would 
  be?