Re: [WSG] Hotlinking prevention does not work

2009-03-21 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

This is not the place to discuss such problems.
This mailing list is to be used for discussions
based around Web Standards.


I don't disagree, but darn, web standards related or not I was curious to 
see the responses. :(


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Marking up news

2009-02-19 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

i would not suggest to use h1 for our news cause what benefit


I agree. That was just for demonstration purposes... I would certainly 
suggest using whatever heading would be appropriate and semantic. I didn't 
have that info so I created a new document and dropped the news in just so I 
could show the markup.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Marking up news

2009-02-19 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Essential,


Hi, it is going to be a list of news events and
will hopefully when I figure it out print the info
to RSS that's why I was thinking of the DL so it's
just a list of some events rather that full news?


I'm sorry, I guess I don't realy understand what you're after. I mean I 
understand you want a list, but you also asked for the best markup. You see, 
naturally I guess I shy away from the list idea to begin with.


With the source order and how it's displayed, plus the addendum of a date, 
naturally forms an order so to speak so I thought the best approach was to 
make the marking up part as simple as possible. In other words I couldn't 
think of a reason for a list.


That said, if for some reason it _must_ be listed, I guess this would be 
about as clean as it can be (the span assumes you want the date to be styled 
differently)...


ul
li
 h#Heading/Title/h#
  pspanThe Date/span - The excerpt/content./p
/li
li
 h#Heading/Title/h#
  pspanThe Date/span - The excerpt/content./p
/li
/ul

...but again, I don't think this brings anything to the table that would be 
considered beneficial or more accessible. Albeit these may not be 
particularly detrimental solutions, I just didn't/don't understand why the 
list is needed to begin with.


I don't really recommend an ordered list because, as said, the date and 
physical order is enough in this case. And I don't really recommend a DL 
either because I would assume you'd use the definition title element for the 
title, but doing so would make those titles more difficult for screen reader 
users as they wouldn't be able to use the DT as navigation aids as they can 
and do with headings.


I must disclaim again, though, I don't really understand your final goal or 
what exactly you're after so if a list is necessary...


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Marking up news

2009-02-19 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Essential,


h4News Title/h4 (h1, h2 and h3 are already being used within the page
for heading and sub heading)
p class=news_dateNews Date/p
p class=news_contentNews Content/p


That works. You might be able to get rid of that what-will-be-repetitive 
news_content class if you wrap the thing in a div (id=news), then the 
CSS would be like.


#news { }
#news h4 { }
#news p { }
#news p .news_date { }

Or use something else if you have it available and skip the div. Just a 
thought. Either way what you're using should serve both you and your readers 
well. Good job.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Marking up news

2009-02-19 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Don't avoid using a headline level just because 
it's already being used within the page.


Good call, Paul.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] A Semi-Transparent Background Color?

2009-02-11 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Brett,

I was wondering why there was no 
implementation to allow a semi-transparent 
background color using CSS?


Would this worn text technique using an image work for you?

http://www.khmerang.com/index.php?p=95

Maybe you can use a dotted color/clear GIF to perform as you want. 


HTH

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Clearing a row with floated list li

2009-01-29 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Paul,


 I want to clear every third list item and start a new row


I haven't tested this so I may very well be wrong, but since you have fixed 
width LIs, if you confine the width of the UL so it only accommodates three 
LIs will the 4th LI drop to the next line?


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-07 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi James,


quotes are being scraped from other sites
how would I cite them?


Something like this might work well:

blockquote cite=http://site.com/quotesource;
pQuoted text goes here./p
pcitea href=http://site.com/quotedperson;Quoted 
Person/a/cite/p

/blockquote

The link within the cite element is optional, they may be the same or 
different as shown, and the cite attribute itself is optional, used only 
when the quote, as you say, is scraped from another site. :)


Hope that helps.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com


- Original Message - 
From: James Jeffery jamesjeffery@googlemail.com

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 5:58 PM
Subject: [WSG] Blockquote


I'm developing a site. A quote site infact. For the quotes I think it's 
wise

to use blockquote ... but, the quotes are being scraped from other sites
so how would I cite them? Could I use a wiki url for the author? And what 
if

the author is unknown or has no wiki page.

Do I *need* to include the cite attribute?


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Question about change color of numbers in OL list

2008-11-06 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Anton,


My idea with inner span:

CSS code:
li { color: red; }
li span { color: blue; }



As far as I know that about as good a solution as it gets. I'm not aware of 
another way to get the job done.


Mike 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from?

2008-11-05 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Are these away on leave notices from people who
manage the webstandardsgroup.org site? Or individual
people? It is kinda getting annoying?


From members, Brett. And, yes, it's an annoying, on-going issue. I do wish 
those emails could somehow be flagged. This is the only mailing list I 
belong to where I get those so I suspect it is solvable.


Sorry to all for exacerbating the problem by replying, but Brett's question 
was legit and it gave me an opportunity to give my opinion about this 
persistent issue.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] RE: Accessible and cross browser online slide system

2008-10-22 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

I can offer this, though I'm not sure if it meets your needs.

http://green-beast.com/autorun/

Cheers.
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + h6 in place of legend

2008-10-16 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Ben,


I've always used label arount input fields [...]
I don't think I've ever seen any recommendation against it.


Here's one for you:
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254

I haven't been paying attention to this, and someone's probably already said 
it (if so, sorry), but it's also worth noting that only form elements will 
be read in a screen reader's forms mode. Being as such, it's better to style 
the legend to look like an h6 rather than substituting it for one.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Uppercase Tag Names

2008-09-26 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi James,


they said to use uppercase text for
tag names and lowercase for attributes.
I have to do it because otherwise I
will lose a mark.


That's a shame they're enforcing that. In HTML 4.01 either upper or 
lowercase is acceptable, but uppercase usage isn't forward-compatible into 
more modern doctypes. In general it's frowned upon and not considered a best 
practice.


I guess you have to live with it for school; you don't want to anger the 
master and all that, but then again if others chime in with what I'm saying, 
perhaps a slew of anonymous forwarded emails to the poers-that-be might be 
for the general good.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Img List Style not displaying for Print Preview

2008-09-11 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Kristine,


I created a print style sheet and for some
reason, my image for the ul list style is
not displaying


To the best of my knowledge background images don't get printed, even if you 
add it to the style sheet. To ensure they're printed I'm pretty sure you 
have to embed them.


Hope this helps.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Accesbility Help

2008-09-04 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi eBiz,

In this article [1] I explain the how-to a bit and offer some additional 
solutions. Perhaps you could integrate those code snippets in your order 
form.


[1] http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=220

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim



- Original Message - 
From: Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:41 AM
Subject: [WSG] Accesbility Help



http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net Click the Essential eBiz Solutions
logo to visit our home page


Hi All,


   This is a mixed question, I have a contact form that I'm
building. I want to add a human verifier to the forms but not a captcha 
one

because they are far from accessible, I'm not that good at PHP though to
figure it out, I already use the Mikes Green Beast form for general 
contact
but this will be to process order request. I've trawled the internet but 
all

I can find is captcha solutions, can any one point me in the right
direction?





Many thanks


Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd

6 Gibson Place

Meir

Stoke-on-Trent



www.essentialebizsolutions.net

Disclaimer: This email and its attachments may be confidential and are
intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any
views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not
necessarily represent those of Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd. If you are 
not
the intended recipient of this email and its attachments then please 
contact

the sender and do not use or forward this e-mail to anyone.

Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd, Registered in England and Wales Company
Registration No: 57200784. Registered Office: 6, Gibson Place, Meir,
Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, ST3 5PQ.

Please consider the environmental impact of printing this e-mail.

CONFIDENTIAL: This email is intended for and confidential to the named
recipient. If you have received a copy in error, please accept our 
apologies

and destroy it. You may not use or disclose the contents of this e-mail to
anyone, nor take copies of it. The only copies permitted are to be made by
the named recipient and for the purpose of completing successful 
electronic

transmission to the named recipient and then only on condition that these
copies, with this notice attached, are kept confidential until destruction

Hosting Plans http://www.krystal.co.uk/aff/aff.php?id=135_1



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Accesbility Help

2008-09-04 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Joseph,


?php
// check the answer
if ($_POST['human_verifier'] != 'blue')
{
// incorrect
echo 'Robot! Get out!');
}
else
{
// correct
echo 'Welcome, Human.';
}
?


You can make that a little more foolproof by setting the case of the text 
before matching, upper or lower it doesn't matter, but either way it'll 
prevent answers like Blue, BLUE, bLuE, etc. from triggering the Robot! Get 
out! error.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim




- Original Message - 
From: Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accesbility Help


If you want to avoid captchas, my recommendation would be to add a 
question that would foil a robot. Just explain that this field is for that 
specifically.


Something like:

fieldset
legendHuman Verification/legend

pThis section is used to thwart evil spam robots. Fill in the correct 
answer./p


div
labelWhat color is the sky? (hint: blue)/label
input type=text name=human_verifier
/div
/fieldset

You're PHP would be:

?php
// check the answer
if ($_POST['human_verifier'] != 'blue')
{
// incorrect
echo 'Robot! Get out!');
}
else
{
// correct
echo 'Welcome, Human.';
}
?

This is obviously a very, very simple solution but it has worked on 
reducing/removing form spam on a couple of my sites quite well while being 
an accessible solution. I'm welcome to an contradictory thoughts on this.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd wrote:


* Click the Essential eBiz Solutions logo to visit our home page 
http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net *



  * Hi All, *


  * This is a mixed question, I have a contact form that I’m building.
  I want to add a human verifier to the forms but not a captcha one
  because they are far from accessible, I’m not that good at PHP
  though to figure it out, I already use the Mikes Green Beast form
  for general contact but this will be to process order request. I’ve
  trawled the internet but all I can find is captcha solutions, can
  any one point me in the right direction? *


  * *


  * Many thanks *

Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd

6 Gibson Place

Meir

Stoke-on-Trent

www.essentialebizsolutions.net http://www.essentialebizsolutions.net

** Disclaimer ** : This email and its attachments may be confidential and 
are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is 
addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author 
and do not necessarily represent those of Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this email and its attachments 
then please contact the sender and do not use or forward this e-mail to 
anyone.


Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd, Registered in England and Wales Company 
Registration No: 57200784. Registered Office: 6, Gibson Place , Meir, 
Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire , ST3 5PQ .


Please consider the environmental impact of printing this e-mail.

CONFIDENTIAL: This email is intended for and confidential to the named 
recipient. If you have received a copy in error, please accept our 
apologies and destroy it. You may not use or disclose the contents of 
this e-mail to anyone, nor take copies of it. The only copies permitted 
are to be made by the named recipient and for the purpose of completing 
successful electronic transmission to the named recipient and then only 
on condition that these copies, with this notice attached, are kept 
confidential until destruction


Hosting Plans http://www.krystal.co.uk/aff/aff.php?id=135_1


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility

2008-08-27 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Jason,

I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture 
and then use

image maps to get to the actual links.


That's not necessarily an inaccessible method, not completely anyway. Take 
my MapPop [1] for example. It's a list and CSS driven. works with keyboard. 
Downside is two-fold. Text cannot be resized, goes blind with images off 
(though not to the blind).


As others noted, there are alternatives your client may not be aware of and 
could take a liking to if you show him/her.


- Image replacement [2]. The right technique (not one that hides the text 
offscreen) is largely accessible. Drawback is the text cannot be resized.


- Embedded images. This can be effective. Drawbacks include not being able 
to effectively do a mouseover (though an experimental technique [3] is 
available). The other drawback is text resize. preload images or use sprites 
for best uncached performance.


- Straight CSS backgrounds. This was provided already but if the client can 
be convinced it would be the most accessible method since the text *should* 
be able to be enlarged. No example given by me, but what was provided is 
fine. Can use a separate image (or part of a larger image like a map)


- Images with text. Text to one side, image to the other, sharing the same 
anchor within a list item. No example given.


You might be able to come pretty close to satisfying your client without 
have to pull back too much, and without a huge sacfrifice to access.


Hope this helps.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim

[1] MapPop. This could be close to what's wanted. 
http://green-beast.com/experiments/css_map_pop.php


[2] Dave Shea has a list of techniques. I like the Gilder/Levin method. 
http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/


[3] CSS embedded  image replacement. This is flawed but I bet if a sprite 
was used instead of two images it might just have some merit. 
http://green-beast.com/experiments/css_image_replacement.php





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings

2008-08-05 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
On lists like these, newbies can become gurus. And the cycle unselfishly 
gets repeated. :)


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Should we design for 800x600 screens?

2008-06-09 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

By subject...

Should we design for 800x600 screens


Design for? Not necessarily. Accommodate? Yes.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Large Background Images

2008-05-13 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Chris,

bandwidth. However standards are still a concern, what perils of  wisdom 
for using a full-page BG can the list cultivate?


Hard on those with a slow connection, but I cannot foresee another issue 
unless the background is a big animated GIF ;-)


You can offer a removal tool for those users easily enough. I do that on my 
hosting company's site [1] because with the masthead and background images 
and all, it could be hard on dial-up and slower DSL users. Granted they 
still have to load the page initially (it's usable without backgrounds but I 
want them on page load for aesthetics), but it's helpful to them when they 
explore the site and on return visits. This is one way to handle the 
conundrum of being backwards compatible, so to speak.


This particular changer uses PHP and a cookie to manage the option. It 
places the new styles in the head with a single property: background-image : 
none; applied to the various elements. The link to it is on the sidebar 
under Page Tools -- the link says Remove Backgrounds.


[1] http://gbhxonline.com

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] The Problem of adjacent links

2008-05-08 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Bob,


I have run into a problem with having two adjacent
links at the top of a page.


You can use a list as someone mentioned, you can also add a hidden 
character. Example:


div id=sitelink
p
  [a href=sitemap.htmlSite Map/a
span | /span
  a href=../../core/noticeboard.htmlHome/a]
/p
  /div

The span would be style with:

div#sitelink span {
 position : absolute;
 left : -9000px;
}

Cheers.
Mike Cherim 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Images

2008-05-08 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi James,


do you need the border, height, and width or should that
be done in the style sheet or is it needed?


Exactly what Tony said regarding width and height, they're beneficial. Lose 
the border attribute, though. That should be done in the style sheet as you 
suspected.


Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Image links

2008-05-01 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Venkatesan,


Is there any chance 'img' can be a parent of 'anchor' tag?


How about this then:

a img, img a {
 text-decoration : none;
}

This is a fuller version with some interaction as a usability enahancement.

img, a img, img a {
 text-decoration : none;
 border : 2px solid #ccc; /* try the background color if wanted */
 font-size : 80%;  /* allows more alt text without overflow issues */
}

img a:hover, img a:focus {
 border : 2px solid #999;
}

img a:active{  /* focus in IE, onkeypress for all else (?) */
 border : 2px solid #000;
}

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
www.green-beast-com



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Image links

2008-05-01 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

it should be:

a img {

}


Ah, yeah, duh, sorry can't do img a. Drop that from my previous example 
please. It's late, I'll Tweet my goof and go to bed :)


Mike 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Form best practice

2008-04-20 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

you've come across a good form
design, functionality, semantics or interaction.


I humbly submit my own.
http://green-beast.com/gbcf-v3/

Cheers.
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Hanging indents

2008-03-21 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello Rob,


facing the great problem of trying to make
the screen look like print.


Good point. I had that issue with a site I recently made. The client wanted 
every entry to look like it did in print. For example, the print version 
used uppercase headings. The client was adding this content to the site, and 
making the headings uppercase (which were not the style of the site). I 
suggested that I could make a style to make the headings uppercase without 
actually making them uppercase. I also noted that unlike the Word version, 
these are real headings so it should be better if anything. But my client 
said that wouldn't fly. The entries were legal documents and had to be 
exact. I argued the point a bit, but I'm not a lawyer, so I gave up.


Cheers.
Mike





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Hanging indents

2008-03-20 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Elizabeth,


I'm trying to get the clauses to appear with a hanging indent


Try adding a div to the body of content you want this treatment in (saving 
on a lot of p.classes and extraneous markup), then put this in the CSS.


div.clauses p {
 margin-left : 50px;
 text-indent : -40px;
}

The margin will create a nice gap for the indents, the neg margin should 
make what you want, first line only. The difference in measurement keep the 
indent from hitting the wall so to speak, but this could also be 
accomplished by adding padding to the div.


div.clauses {
 padding : 10px;
}

div.clauses p {
 margin-left : 40px;
 text-indent : -40px;
}

Someone might say it's a job for an ordered list, but the complex numbers 
make that impossible, moreover, these items are numbered, this is true, but 
not really ordered.



in IE 6 and started tearing my hair out.


Well, we can't have that so I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



[WSG] WCAG 2 implementation site

2008-03-11 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
I don't recall who had asked for the link, but I have finally launched the 
WCAG 2 implementation site that was mentioned. Info about it as well as a 
link to the site can be found here: http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=221.


Cheers.
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction and myths

2008-03-09 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

I didn't know robots text
was important for accessibility, however I learned from the
accessites team that it is.


Tee,

The reasons we (Accessites) look for a robots.txt file is because it keeps 
honest bots from wasting their time and your bandwidth indexing 
directories/files you don't want indexed. We don't look at this as part of a 
web accessibility requirement. Our focus is on quality sites for which 
accessibility must be an integral part. Thus, we like to see things like a 
robots.txt file, PICS label, semantics, good looks, and more, of course.


Regarding a site map, that we like to see for accessibility and not for bots 
at all. A site map is important to accessibility as some user will seek out 
a site map right away to grasp a site's overview and offerings. For some 
users, this is the best way to begin the exploration of a site. In my 
opinion, html site maps don't have anything to do with indexing other than 
just being another indexable page.


It is my understanding, though, that an XML site map can help indexing but 
being that I've never used one or looked into it much, I can neither confirm 
or deny this.


Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction and myths

2008-03-09 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

That seems incredibly arbitrary when a robots.txt is purely optional -
especially as the default spider behavior is to index all unless told
otherwise. So you're penalizing people by having your robot behave in the
opposite manner? And regarding PICS labels, most people don't know how to
set them or don't have the requisite server access. How do you justify
these?


John,

We don't necessarily penalize for not having one, we just credit for having 
one (offering one is not part of our criteria [1]). It's something we like 
to see. For the reasons I stated: we grade a site on many levels, and we see 
that providing a robots.txt as a positive thing that helps make a 
site/domain complete. Same with a PICS label, it's not a requirement, though 
I believe a PICS label can actually help with access in that some schools 
districts won't allow network access to site that doesn't claim to be 
appropriate for the level of the students the system serves.


Regarding requisite server access I don't understand. The PICS label is 
put into the head of the document. If a developer doesn't understand how to 
get a PICS label or can't add one to the head and don't have access to such, 
I doubt they'd be submitting a site for possible awarding.


But, regardless, the main point of my reply was to clarify that the 
robots.txt file has no bearing on the site's accessibility (that I'm aware 
of) and that's it's just one of the many things we look for in a quality 
submission.


Cheers.
Mike

[1] http://accessites.org/site/criteria/




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] SEO, fact or fiction

2008-03-06 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello Michael,

Accessibility is far more important to SEO than most standards, affecting 
SEO directly, that is. Think of Googlebot as a blind user and you can see 
why I mention accessibility.


I have gotten emails before, filled with promises of being number one on 
Google (but under what search terms wasn't specified). It's crap. Some of 
those spam blogs and send bulk emails. Many can't be found on searches 
themselves so what good they would do for me is highly suspect. I delete 
those emails. Legit or not I see it as spam.


Natural, ethical SEO is best:

1) Good use of (page name first) titles.
2) Make sure your site is accessible (*standards required here).
3) Interesting, well-written content. Offer something.
4) Concise meta descriptions.
5) Give it time and your steady effort.

Price for that advice:

Free.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] IE8 news

2008-03-05 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Thomas,


One thing I noticed was some oddness with :hover behaviour


I remember when IE7 came out (RC1 I think) I had to add [1] a:hover {} to 
the head of my documents else it didn't work at all. I added it within my 
@import statement with empty braces, like this:


style type=text/css media=screen
@import mystylesheet.css; a:hover { }
/style

I really have top wonder if this is more of the same. What oddness are you 
seeing?


I can't say I'll be installing it too soon. I did that with 7 and it just 
led to a bunch of changes (bug fixes) that I didn't need to make by the time 
RC2 came out.


Cheers.
Mike 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Browser Text Resizing and the Ill Effects It May Cause

2008-03-03 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Jason,

yes I do.. You can do the same thing with pictures it's really a cool 
effect, and helps maintain the ratio of the entire page pretty well..


I have a demo up (Currently using php to process the size of the  image) 
if anyone wants to look: HTTP://www.raoset.com/dev/global7/


I don't mean to pick, but is it really a good tradeoff to have download an 
895kb image just so it can be enlarged with the text. It seems like everyone 
(including your bandwidth resources) will take a big hit just so the image 
can grow.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] IE8 news

2008-03-03 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/03/microsoft-s-interoperability-principles-and-ie8.aspx


That's awesome. A unified industry can move forward. Those who want to 
embrace it will get with the program, and those who don't can stay in 
IE7-ville until... well, until they get with the program, at their leisure. 
At least those who have been playing the game won't have to play games with 
funky new meta tags.


It's nice to see the voice of web standards being heard.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field

2008-02-26 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Matt,


I guess I would prefer verbose and have them fill the
form out once than have them have them misinterpret
and have to fix errors, [...]


I agree.


[...] which I imagine can be tedious
using a screen reader. Is this the case?


Can be a horror show. My understanding is that client side (using JavaScript 
alerts) is actually pretty accessible.


For server side, my v2 [1] form script bookmarks the success/error message 
(#results) bringing the user directly to the message. The message tells them 
what's wrong, they go back and fix the issue. Going back doesn't take them 
directly to the culprit input so they have to navigate to it. This is the 
version (modified a bit more) I'm using (have to for now) on the site I had 
mentioned. The error management was noted, favorably.


Even better, dare I say the best way, is how I manage errors on my v3 [2] 
form. The user is directed to the error, on the same page, and links are 
provided taking the user directly to the culprit input/s. All errors now do 
this, and some take it a step further. For example, if the anti-spam 
question is wrong the script returns the error, a link, and also gives the 
user the right answer (my attempt to better satisfy the needs of those with 
cognitive disabilities). Also, there is a honeypot input (to lure 'bots). 
Users are told to keep it empty in the label, but if they mistakenly fill it 
in they are notified of the error, the input is cleared for them, and they 
are given a link to the submit and asked to try again. Balancing 
accessibility and the security is delicate.



It would be great if you could keep us posted
about any feedback you get in March when the
site goes live.


Will do. Nothing's perfect so I'm sure I'll get useful feedback from people 
who see it. Hope so anyway.



what I think I will do is run a few simple A\B tests
on some of my sites and log the amount of JavaScript
errors for each of the different methods described


That'd be great, Matt. Thanks.

Mike

Live Demo Forms:
[1] http://green-beast.com/gbcf/gbcf_form.php
[2] http://green-beast.com/gbcf-v3/test-form.php







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



[WSG] Special site check invitation (for one)

2008-02-26 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello all,

I am looking for a volunteer to check out a web site for me. I need another 
set of eyes. This volunteer needs the following:


1) Access to an extra wide viewport (beyond 1024).
2) A solid knowledge of CSS so if a bug is found, together we might be able 
to find a fix (you will be properly credited if it comes to this).
3) Different browsers on which to look (FF IE6,7, OP, Safari) on Windows. 
Mac, too, would be beneficial but not necessary.

4) A static IP so you can be added to the approved viewer's array.

If you meet the requirements and you're interested in helping, please 
contact me off-list. At which point I will announce here a volunteer was 
found.


Thanks.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Special site check invitation (COMPLETE)

2008-02-26 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello all,

Thank you to all who volunteered. I owe you one :)

I did actually extend the invitation to three people -- more the merrier, 
right?


Cheers.
Mike



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field

2008-02-25 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Matt,


that the following legend is
superflous and prevents logical grouping.


 fieldset
 legendRequired/legend
 label for=nameName (required) input name=name
 label for=emailEmail (required) input name=email
 /fieldset


I agree, actually. With that example (and the image one I gave) using the 
word required, in the case of a user listening with a setting that reads the 
legends (default), would make it too verbose. It'd read:


Required Name Required
Required Email Required

Though I guess there'd be no missing it. ;-)

The use of the Required legend seems to work well with the asterisk, with 
its meaning defined in a non-associated label (one with no for attribute). 
It's a compromise method. I do have one form on a real-deal AAA WCAG 2.0 
site I made (to be officially announced Mar. 11-12th) with this specific 
configuration. It's open now by invite to a few disabled users/testers and a 
couple of key WCAG 2.0 Editors, and I got more very positive comments about 
that particular set-up tonight... a few minutes ago actually.



fieldset
legendPersonal Details/legend

label for=nameName  span class=required(required)/span/label
input name=name


That is a solid method for sure, but there's only one problem and that is to 
*some* users (default settings) it might sound too verbose.


Personal Details Name Required
Personal Details Email Required
Personal Details Phone

The problem is not the technique, yours or mine, or any of the other 
accessible methods. It's the myriad configurations possible that really 
challenge us. There are so many variables (not even including those of 
sighted users) that while there are a number of feasible methods, there 
seems no perfect one-size fits-all answer. It's all a compromise.


Mike



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation

2008-02-11 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Tee,

I suppose I can turn off the server-side validation if client-side 
validation is used, but I am concerned with the accessibility issue


You can have it both ways. The JavaScript can work before anything is even 
submitted to the server (very AJAXy) so the server-side validation isn't 
even used -- unless the JS isn't supported.


Perfectly accessible provided the error management is accessible for users 
who have JavaScript but can't use all features (provide for non-sighted and 
keyboard), or those who have JS enabled on their browser, but have scripts 
blocked at another point such as a firewall or router. Make sure JS isn't 
required to use the form.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Decorative bolding

2008-02-11 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Do I:
a. Use the b tag, or...
b. Use a span tag and bold it using CSS?



I'd use span, b is deprecated



Actually it's not deprecated, not in HTML 4, 5 or XHTML 1. If ever there was 
a case for the use the 'b' element, this might be a good one.


---

Strong is important so, as Rachel stated, it isn't appropriate. A span is 
fine as others have pointed out, but the b element might also be a sound 
choice in this case. The b element is a highlight of sorts. That is its 
semantic value, its role as an element in a web document.



From HTML 5:

blockquote
The b element represents a span of text to be stylistically offset from the 
normal prose without conveying any extra importance, such as key words in a 
document abstract, product names in a review, or other spans of text whose 
typical typographic presentation is boldened.

/blockquote

It is bold without the importance, at least that is its default rendering. 
Remember, just because it is bold might not necessarily mean that it is a 
style. All elements have a default rendering. Strong is bold and so are 
headings. They all have a role, and we don't think of those as a style.


A better way to answer the original question might be to ask: Do you want 
the value retained in the mark-up, or is it purely a style that painted 
onto the presentational layer? Or, worded another way, should the boldened 
treatment exist without styles?


If it should, then the b might be best. Otherwise I heartily agreee that the 
span element should be used.


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-08 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Rachel,

I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready 


For better or worse, it's published:
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254

Cheers.
Mike




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms)

2008-02-08 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Thomas,


In HTML4 it's a font style element on the line with b and i etc


I guess I've always considered it a font-sizing element more than a styling 
thing, though the final result is a visual style. I've always felt it has a 
meaning of being less important than the surrounding text. An afterthought, 
a byline, some fineprint, or supporting sub-text.



can we say that small has a semantic meaning now?


I always felt it did in an odd sort of way. I judge its use again with 
styles off. If I really want the text to be smaller to effectively separate 
its meaning from the surrounding text, then I use the small element. If it 
shouldn't be, or if I'm not sure or can't decide, or I don't care one way or 
the other, then I don't use it. If I still want it to appear smaller for 
some reason I will likely use a span element instead to style the text in 
question without dimishing its value as it relate to the surrounding 
content. However, when I usually want text to be smaller, then it is usually 
because I feel it *is* less important falling into one of the categories I 
mentioned, so I usually end up using the small tag. I may use it more than 
some people for this reason.


Same thing applies to the b element, but differently. The b element is meant 
to be a highlight. I end up never using it because I always end up asking 
myself why I want to highlight something. My answer always guides me. If 
it's purely stylistic then I use a span, but I usually want to hightlight a 
word because it is meant to be spoken with emphasis (inflection) so I'll end 
up using em. Or it may be more important than the surrouding (a common 
reason to highlight a word or phrase), then I use the important element: 
strong. b is one of those I don't really have a use for. I use the i element 
more regularly becuase the W3C is more clear about it, and its uses are more 
distinct and meaningful


My thoughts on those two elements are spelled out in more detail here: 
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=222


Cheers.
Mike








I think this might be one of those double-edged swords. 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-08 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello Thomas,


But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with
a br between the label and input.


I know developers are mostly split down the middle about this issue that 
I've seen. To me, and perhaps this is really silly, but I really like my 
sites to look and be just as usable with styles off as they are with styles 
on, and I find adding breaks really neatens up the form visually when 
viewing the site without styles, organizing it a bit. To me that's a 
positive thing.


I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the 
form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No 
negatives that I'm aware of.


Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to adding 
a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to that 
end either.


I will say this, though, I do respect the choice made by those who choose 
not to use it. So much so that the third version of my contact form script 
has a configuration variable called $add_breaks to which entering yes will 
add them in and entering no remove them. Each to their own I figured. No 
harm either way that I know of so I may as well be accommodating :)


Cheers.
Mike


- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms


Very interesting article. I'm reevaluating my options about lists on 
forms.


But I'm not sure I feel comfortable with a br between the label and 
input. Semantically it looks like it separates them, even though the FOR 
attributes connects them.


If the br came after the input then both the label and the input 
ends up in the same line without any CSS styling.


- Original Message - 
From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms



Hi Rachel,


I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready


For better or worse, it's published:
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254

Cheers.
Mike




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Small element (was:Styling forms)

2008-02-08 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello Thomas,


One of your examples:
p
iWhy does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times/i,
   he thought.
/p

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use:
p
qWhy does this semantic markup stuff have to be so unclear at times/q,
   he thought.
/p
...since it's quoting a person's though?


It's not really a quote, though. And the context belongs to the thinker. 
Thus I feel the i element is more appropriate in this case. With the i 
it'll semantically identified and a thought or dream, whereas with q it'd 
be a quote and, I think, slightly off mark. And then there's IE and the q 
requiring some sort of workaround.



As for:
p
The nematicidal marigold,
i lang=laTagetes minutum/i,
can grow to 8-10 feet.
/p

wouldn't that be better as:
p
The nematicidal marigold,
dfnTagetes minutum/dfn,
can grow to 8-10 feet.
/p
As this then defines what Tagetes minutum is?


I think using the defining instance element would be good in this case, 
especially being that the new term is defined to a certain extent 
immediately following the term, and it would provide the appropriate default 
styling (foreign language in italics). It would perhaps be an even better 
choice than that which I chose. I do think adding in the language attribute 
would complete the picture: dfn lang=laTagetes minutum/dfn


Cheers.
Mike



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-08 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi Thierry,


As a side note, I style these BRs with display:none.


I'm curious, what effect does that have on the styled page?Do you do 
something like...


label {
 display : block;
}

br {
 display : none;
}

Thanks.
Mike


- Original Message - 
From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Styling forms



On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com
I don't think the break use has any bearing on the accessibility of the
form's elements so that doesn't seem to have bearing on my decision. No
negatives that I'm aware of.

Semantically speaking, I think the introduction of a break is akin to
adding
a slight pause. I don't think that has any bearing on accessibility to
that
end either.


I use the line break because without it and without styles support, labels 
and input fields appear next to each other.
I think this may be confusing to some people; they could visually 
associate a label with the wrong input field.


As a side note, I style these BRs with display:none.

--
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-08 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
I don't use display:block, most of the time I float everything and use 
the label to clear.
Depending on the width of the labels I may use text-align:right; to move 
the text in the label toward the text box.
I also set the widths in EMs, to avoid the text to wrap if it grows. With 
the fieldset width set in pixels, when these elements grow, they simply 
pile up without breaking anything.
If I kill the BRs it is just to make sure they don't create any vertical 
space.




Thanks Thierry.

Mike



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-07 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit.


I agree. :)

Mike


- Original Message - 
From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Styling forms



On Behalf Of Thomas Thomassen
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms

While I see your point, what I find to be troublesome is that Label and
Input are inline elements. While it's easy to wrap the Inputs in Labels
and
make the Labels block elements, with just plain HTML and no CSS that
means a
form's elements will end up all in one long line.



fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit.


--
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-07 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Still need some extra elements to organise them.
Such as lists.


I don't know why that would be. Proper use of form elements is the only 
organizational support needed. In my opinion, use of any other non-form 
elements on form's isn't necessary, or advantageous and, if not careful, can 
actually take away from the form.


Just like a p doesn't need a td, a label + input combo doesn't need an 
li.


Old conversation, I know, but I just had to chime in.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/








- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms


Fieldsets and Labels is present in HTML4 as well. Don't see anything new 
about that. Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists.
 - Original Message - 
 From: Joe Ortenzi

 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:36 AM
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms


 Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements?


 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/


 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms


 It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than 
paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl



 JOe


 On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote:


   There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as 
a
   list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be 
wrong.



   The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a
   list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset
   element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped.
   Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form
   controls.


   Steve






   -Original Message-
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On

   Behalf Of Michael Horowitz
   Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38
   To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
   Subject: [WSG] Styling forms


   I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them 
up
   as ordered lists and other using paragraphs.  What are the arguments for 
the

   different markup types.


   --
   Michael Horowitz
   Your Computer Consultant
   http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
   561-394-9079






   ***
   List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
   Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
   Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   ***






   ***
   List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
   Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
   Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   ***




 Joe Ortenzi
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.joiz.com





 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-07 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello Thomas,


How does screenreaders treat using just
labelinput//label?


I'm writing an article on just that thing now. Jaws is okay with it, but 
Windows Eyes chokes on it. That in itself may not be too-too important due 
to the number of users, but I'm  99.99% sure that Safari on Mac users will 
have difficulty (at best) actually inputting content in such a form input. I 
can't replicate this on Safari for Windows, but I have gotten lots of 
feedback to go on.


I actually just updated both of my version two contact forms today to 
correct this (v3 was already fixed). I've been fixing forms all day 
actually.


I have come to the conclusion that the only proper method is...

   label for=fooFoo Text/label
   input id=foo

Though I suppose input alt=Foo Text would also be okay.

Cheers.
Mike




- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms


hm... this thread has given me a thinker.
How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label?

form
 fieldset
   labelFoo: input id=foo//label
   labelBar: input id=bar//label
 /fieldset
/form

How will it present the form? If it's all inline, will it be read 
continuous, or will there be a break between the elements?


 - Original Message - 
 From: Joe Ortenzi

 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:31 PM
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms


 Well done Alexey!


 Are we not confusing semantics with presentational here?


 if it is OK to strip the presentational out of a list element (when we use 
a list for a navigation group and want our navigation elements in a row 
instead of a column) what is wrong with supplanting the inline quality of a 
label/input group by designating it a block element, and then group several 
form elements, or even each label input group with fieldsets?



 BTW: br / is the equivalent of a force carriage return and thus belongs 
within paragraphs, i thought!



 Joe


 On Feb 7 2008, at 19:55, Алексей Новиков wrote:


   On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz
   Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM
   To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
   Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms


   TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit.


   BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't.


   --
   Regards,
   Alexey Novikov
   http://studiomade.ru






   ***
   List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
   Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
   Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   ***




 Joe Ortenzi
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.joiz.com





 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Definition List appropriate for FAQ?

2008-01-17 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello Christian,

I've been trying to decide which is more semantically correct for an FAQ 
[...]

definition list is probably the most appropriate


My vote is in favor of a DL. I feel it is absolutely the most appropriate 
element to use in such a case.


Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com

Join Accessible Web Developers on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=7010678585





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] autostrech rounded css rectangle

2008-01-10 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello Naveen,


help me to get an autostretch rounded css rectangle.


Would this meet your needs? It can be a rectangle if you want.
http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_smart_corners.php

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.

2007-12-20 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Don't forget, with all the best barriers in place, one can always transcribe 
the content so the only real solution, as James wrote:



If you don't want information copied from
your web page then don't put in on the web. period.


Holiday cheers.
Mike Cherim



- Original Message - 
From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Preventing copying of text from web page.



Hi

This is an oft asked question by a lot of clients and relies on a basic
misundertanding of how documents are passed around the internet.
Basically, it is impossible (see examples below). If you don't want
information copied from your web page then don't put in on the web. 
period.


Additionally, copy+paste is one of the most fundamental actions on any 
device,

disabling it is pretty rude and nigh on impossible anway - on some desktop
environments you can determine your own keystrokes to copy and paste that 
are

known only to you and can't be detected by client side code
e.g Ctrl-Alt-Tab-C for copying

Examples:
1. Lets disable right click functionaity!
results:
- users lose functionality
- easy workaround

workaround 1:
$ wget http://www.example.com/  'copy of your home page.html'
workaround 2:
install some firefox extension to ignore right click disable requests by a
page
workaround 3:
use the google cache or the web archive
workaround 4:
take it out of the brower cache - where it is copied anyway

2. Let's encrypt the html!
results:
no such thing - it's encoding, not encryption. When you encode something
anyone can decode it.  If it is encryption you'd have to pass a shared key 
to

a public resource or expect your visitors to have that encryption key.
slows down page rendering - it has to be decoded by JS usually.

workaround 1:
- decode_function(html)  'decoded copy.html'

3. Let's disable the printer requests!
- see workaround 1.3,1.1,1.4

4. Use images / flash / pdf to render content
- content generally inaccessible to search engines and screen readers
- decode with OCR technology (crackers can easily do this with captchas)

5. transparent image over content
- adblock the image
workaround 1:
- save as  file.html  html only

Copyright infringment is best left up to the lawyers - but then there is 
the

argument of content being in the public domain anyway.

If you are in a closed intranet environment one way to do it would be to
employ someone who runs around everytime a page is rendered in a browser 
and

shouts very loudly remember not to copy and paste! :)


Thanks
James

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:48:17 am Nick Roper wrote:

Hi,

We have been asked by a client whether it is possible to any extent to
prevent/deter users from copying content from a particular web page.

The page will comprise two main areas:

1) Selection options in the form of select lists, check boxes etc.

2) Once the criteria have been selected then a 'Search' button will
initiate a script that will query the database and display resulting
text records in tabular format.

The requirement is that the the user should be able to view the
resulting output, but not to be able to copy/paste to other applications.

Is this possible to achieve in a way that is standards-compliant - or
indeed in any way at all? One suggestion has been to apply a transparent
image over the results table - but not sure if this could be done with
CSS etc?

If this is considered off-topic then I would welcome suggestions for
more appropriate forums.

Many thanks in anticipation.

Regards,





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] typepad css problem

2007-12-12 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello Michael,


trying to create a button affect
a:{
[...]
}

but it is not working.


Remove the colon after the anchor element, or add the word link (a:link) 
after it. Do bear in mind, as written, it may affect links you don't want it 
to so you will either want to specify it with a class or ID [1], or assign 
it to a parent [2].


--
[1]

a class=foo href=/Foo/a

a.foo {
 your : styles;
}

--
[2]

p class=fooa href=/Foo/a

p.foo a {
 your : styles;
}

--

Make sense?

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Appropriate use of the ABBR tag and Roman Numerals

2007-11-29 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Tate,

 I'm in the process of representing the date in Roman Numerals. I'm
 concerned this may confuse potential users, and would like to display
 an optional tooltip in the standard Gregorian  format. Would it be
 considered semantically appropriate to make use of the abbr tag?

Or maybe a defining instance? 

dfn title=The year 2007MMVII/dfn

I think that might have more inherent value.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Markup question

2007-11-28 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hi John,

I would use either a definition list or plain old headings and paragraphs. I 
say this because while they are numbered, I wouldn't think they are actually 
ordered.

An ordered list should be used if the ordering is specific (think driving 
directions), but a club constitution wouldn't be ordered. I would think the 
numbers are used to identify the content sections but not the ordering.

To retain this probable meaning, a heading with the number as part of the 
heading would be the most logical, most light-weight, and most accessible 
solution. This could be followed by the same within the paragraphs, perhaps 
adding a strong tag to the number to show importance (that is officially 
what strong is for).

My secondary suggestion would be a DL as I wrote, but again with the numbers 
added in as content.

Respectively,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com



- Original Message - 
From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:19 PM
Subject: [WSG] Markup question


I have to mark up a club constitution where all the paragraphs are
numbered but there are also headings that are supposed to relate to
paragraphs, e.g.:

Heading 1

1. Paragraph goes here

2. Paragraph goes here

3. Paragraph goes here

Heading 2

4. Paragraph goes here

5. Paragraph goes here

Heading 3

6. Paragraph goes here

etc.

An ordered list seems like the most obvious choice but what would I do
with the headings which fall outside of the list items?

-- 
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Less than and greater than in UTF-8 encoded HTML

2007-11-14 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Simon,

 How should I code less than  and greater than  
 signs in UTF-8 encoded HTML?
 The quick brown fox said 3 is less than 4, then he wrote 3  4.

The quick brown fox said 3 is less than 4, then he wrote 3 lt; 4.

Greater than, , is written as gt;

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Web Form Best Practices

2007-11-14 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Howard,

 some form templates
 Any help focusing my search?

I can offer a demo form [1] and a post about some (hopefully) best practices 
[2]. There is also an accessible form builder [3] at Accessify.com. No 
templates per se, but maybe these will be helpful.

[1] http://green-beast.com/gbcf/
[2] http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=206
[3] 
http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/accessibility-tools/form-builder/

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
Mike



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] CSS help

2007-11-01 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Rob,

 I don't have (or know how to have) a structured 
 system of building my style sheets. 

Maybe this will help? 

A CSS Starter File
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=109

Cheers.
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

2007-10-31 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
I can offer this simple method:
http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_smart_corners.php

I prefer spans over divs because divs do have semantic value as divisions 
whereas span are like puffs of air in that they serve as nothing more than a 
hook for styles, etc. I'd rather offer a span to accept the background than 
a full div.

That's my take on it anyway.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

2007-10-31 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
 Mike check out the example I posted earlier and you 
 can see how it can be done without all the extra markup.

I need a link please.

Mike


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

2007-10-31 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
 http://jixor.com/Stuff/Web/Panes

Thanks. That's clever and simple.

Cheers.
Mike



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] How z-index works

2007-10-29 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
 I'd appreciate any comments that would help me improve
 this tool:
 http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp

That's really cool Thierry :-)

Mike



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] How z-index works

2007-10-29 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
 BTW: congrats for your move with the Guild :)  [1]

Thank you.

Cheers.
Mike

[1] http://accessites.org/site/2007/10/accessites-and-gawds-cooperate/




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-26 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
 If an image is purely for presentation then use CSS
 and apply it as a background image.

I personally don't think of this as some hard-and-fast rule, or even a 
rule-of-thumb since it's often impractical. I will often apply a decorative 
or supporting image for visual purposes, but if I have to add classed 
mark-up (to style it) and a CSS entry for every decorative image on my sites 
it'd seriously get out-of-hand quicky.

I feel it is best to first assess the image which then tells me what to do 
with it. I did make a blog entry [1]  year about this assessment protocol, 
and I have addressed the topic more generally this year in another entry 
[2].

Not everyone will agree with these, but it's what I've managed to sort out 
for myself. To me it makes sense.

[1] The Alt and Accessibility
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=81
[2] Adding Embedded Images to a Web Page
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=203

Cheers.
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links - and mail sender

2007-10-19 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Anders,

 Is there any way to protect this from being used as
 a way to send out spam? You can't really know that
 people enter their own emailaddress ...

A person could use it to send the copy to someone else, but then again 
people are the most difficult to control. I do offer an IP blacklist with 
this to deal with people if necessary (a weak control at best since not 
everyone has a static IP). A robot shouldn't be able to do it, though. The 
form has a number of measures to prevent 'bot submissions and exploitation, 
one of which is a honeypot (a baited input) which someone had mentioned 
before.

That said, even though people are the most difficult to control, they don't 
seem to be the real problem. The problem seems to be with 'bots so that's 
the form's main focus.

Cheers.
Mike







- Original Message - 
From: Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links - and mail sender


Hi!

Mike at Green-Beast.com skrev:
 I offer that in my contact form. It's a config option. The contact form
 owner can enable/disable offering a get-a-copy option to his/her visitors.

Is there any way to protect this from being used as a way to send out
spam? You can't really know that people enter their own emailaddress ...


/anders




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links - and mail sender

2007-10-19 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
 Good point, Patrick. I'll certainly consider offering
 a checkbox as a UI option for 'send me a copy of
 the contents of this form'.

 I'd certainly be interested if this could be done in
 php by assigning the user's mail address as a
 string, then posting to it.  Anyone done that?

I offer that in my contact form. It's a config option. The contact form 
owner can enable/disable offering a get-a-copy option to his/her visitors.

http://green-beast.com/blog/?page_id=71 (Stand alone version)
http://green-beast.com/blog/?page_id=136 (WordPress version)

Cheers.
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links

2007-10-18 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Thanks for the heads up on that, Patrick. I'm going to contact him and ask 
he remove that.

Domain registration records is another source I think. :-(

Cheers.
Mike


- Original Message - 
From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links


Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:

 My personal policy is to never put an email address on the web unless it's
 written out using plain text

The problem there is that, quite often, you don't have much control over
things like web-based email archives, e.g.
http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=cherim

(though admittedly there are only 3 hits, matching an old email address
of yours, but still...all it takes is one occurrence somewhere on the web)

oh, this was interesting (check the first post there)

http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2312012


-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links

2007-10-17 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Or Golan wrote:
 Why not simply display the email address as a simple
 mailto only when the browser is a screen reader?

A screen reader attaches to a visual browser as an add-on thus it cannot be 
detected. It's a shame as that would solve some problems. Text browsers can 
be detected, but screen readers cannot. Moreover, once that is relied upon 
it can be spoofed.

I created two experimental solutions. [1] One was found out due to browser 
spoofing and I now get a spam or two each week. [2] My other experiment has 
proven itself effective thus far, and to the best of my knowledge it is 
quite accessible.

I agree with Patrick that solving the issue on the site isn't the best way, 
but only to a degree as it leaves two things up in the air. One is a problem 
for me in that I cannot apply filters because I need to gauge solution 
effectiveness. The other is exposing my email and filtering on the mail 
server will still make the email available to harvesters. Harvesters don't 
just use your email to send you spam, but they also use it as a from or 
reply-to on spam sent to others. It'll look like it came from you.

My personal policy is to never put an email address on the web unless it's 
written out using plain text so it's understandable to people but not 
understandable to robots (Send mail to mikecherim at this domain... etc). 
Most obfuscation techniques I've seen either don't work well or they aren't 
accessible to all. As far as character encoding doesn't work (using server 
side tech or JS), though it is accessible.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/

[1] Somewhat effective but not completely:
http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_hide_email.php
[2] So far so good (knock-on-wood):
http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_email_protector.php




- Original Message - 
From: Or Golan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links


Why not simply display the email address as a simple mailto only when the
browser is a screen reader?

On 10/17/07, Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 17/10/07 (14:16) Patrick said:

 Fix your spam issues at the mail server + mail client end, not at the
 web page end, would be my advice.

 David said:
 I, long ago, gave up trying. Methods are either highly ineffective,
 or block out users you want as well as spam bots. I take the view
 that email addresses are going to end up on spam lists eventually no
 matter what I do, and just run spam filtering software.

 So the general consensus would seem to be forgeddabowdit.
 I wondered if that would be the result, but I'm surprised that there
 isn't a workaround -- only because almost everything else that I thought
 would be impossible some clever person has found a way to do.

 To join with Andrew Maben, however, I'd be curious to know whether
 spambots decode encoded entity text, eg:

 'user'
 becomes
 '#117;#115;#101;#114;'

 (ignore quote marks).


 I assume that they can read them perfectly easily -- browsers can, after
 all -- but it'd be good to know for sure.
 Same question for screen readers.

 --
 Rick Lecoat



 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Story Boards

2007-10-10 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
 doing a project for my website development course.
 now, part of the requirements says that i need to
 create a story board to represent what content is
 to be displayed on each page.

Hello Marvin,

Could something like this possibly work for you?
http://green-beast.com/autorun/

There are some in-use examples on the Summary page, one being a 
step-by-step CSS tutorial, another for a presentation, and a third being 
used to showcase some land.

Is the application accessible to you? I tried my best to make it so but it 
was challenging.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-03 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
 Better yet, since not everyone can see, lets require
 all publications to include a braille copy

Copyrighted publications in the US are copied to Braille for the most part 
(with copyright holder's permission) by the Library of Congress.

 I want to visit the summit of mount everest... I suppose
 the people of tibet should install an escalator just so I
 can reach the top due to my less-then-perfect phisical
 status.

Mount Everest?! Please, get serious. If you're going to provide a 
comparison, use something logical. Your comparison is akin to comparing an 
apple to a hippopotamus. Not even close.

Let's instead compare the brick-n-mortar Target stores with the web site. 
Are you against the law that requires access to their stores, ramps, parking 
spots, wider doors, restroom aids, etc. Where is the line drawn? Why did 
that law come to be? It is the result of the courts because businesses 
didn't do it on their own and had to be pushed. The ADA spoke for a 
minority.

Businesses are notorious for doing the very least that they can until the 
law tells them otherwise. Notorious! It's all about numbers, money, and risk 
management. I despise lawsuits, but this one is for the greater good, and as 
has been proven in the past, necessary.

It's hard enough living with a disability without the ignorant, the selfish, 
or the greedy making life harder. Target spent millions making their stores 
accessible. To make the site accessible is so much less. So much easier for 
them. And yet, left to command themselves, they did nothing. In fact, once 
asked to correct the issues the first time all they did was complain, try to 
justify their crappy site, and took little to no action.

Choice? Cut off your legs and see how limited choice gets. The web is easy 
access for lots of people who have certain difficulties, even with full ADA 
compliance in a physical location. My cousin was a quadriplegic and she 
hardly went anywhere because it was a huge hassle doing anything. Give her a 
pointed stick, put it in her mouth, and place a computer in front of her, 
though, and she was free to roam and happy as a lark. She literally drooled 
over the experience! I can't see how any business or site can justify the 
failure to remove the barriers that would have blocked her access.

I better stop now.

Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Title links in navigation elements

2007-10-02 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Cole,

 I'm a little confused: are TITLE attributes required
 for a href navigation elements? Won't screen
 readers verbalize the contents of the wording
 between a href tags?

They will read the linked text and a screen reader user will normally turn 
off title expansion (I think it's off by default). So, text rules.

The title attribute is a very weak conveyence of information. If it's 
important it should be as text. Personally, I use the title attribute mostly 
to expand information on external links, but this is only readily available 
to mouse (pointer) users so I try to add some clarity within the context.

Here's an example of how I might use it (extracted from an actual usage at 
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=214):

[...] I decided to ask my Swedish friend a 
href=http://www.autisticcuckoo.net/; title=Autistic CuckooTommy 
Olsson/a on board to co-author the project.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Form styling

2007-09-26 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hi John,

 With your labels set to display: block, you don't realy
 need the extra br at the end of each one. ;)

You're right, of course, but I think it's a good idea to keep the breaks. 
Not everyone supports styles so the breaks keep the form neat without them.

My 2 cents.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim

Just relaunched as v5: http://greenmethods.com/



- Original Message - 
From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Form styling


http://www.dave-woods.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/accessible-forms1.html

With your labels set to display: block, you don't realy need the extra
br at the end of each one. ;)


-- 
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Simple, almost silly, question:

2007-09-18 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Micky,

It sort of looks like you answered your own question:

 Would it make more sense to style a sub-headline [...]

Being that you called it a sub-headline is probably indicative of how you 
think of this line and how you should mark it up. Though, if you don't want 
it to be styled or look like a heading you can change that in your style 
sheet while keeping the semantics intact.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/




- Original Message - 
From: Micky Hulse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 5:25 PM
Subject: [WSG] Simple, almost silly, question:


Hi,

I have a headline styled as an H2, like so:

h2Headline for main story/h2

Would it make more sense to style a sub-headline as an h3 or as a
non-header?

I was thinking this made sense:

h2Headline for main story/h2
h3This is the subhead for the main story/h3

Thoughts? :)

Thanks in advance!
Cheers,
Micky

-- 
Wishlist: http://tinyurl.com/22xonb
   Switch: http://browsehappy.com/
 BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8
   My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Popup 'box' on hover

2007-08-23 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
How about this: http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_map_pop.php? This 
could be adapted easily I think.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim


- Original Message - 
From: Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:23 AM
Subject: [WSG] Popup 'box' on hover


Hi,

A client would like functionality similar to that used on
istockphoto.com - i.e. that a 'popup' window is displayed with a larger
image and some text when the user hovers over a thumbnail image. e.g.

Can I do this with CSS in a standards-compliant and works cross-browser
way? Any pointers or references to example code gratefully received.

Thanks,

Nick

-- 
Nick Roper
partner
logical elements



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script

2007-08-02 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Ryan Moore wrote:
 I'm looking for a Stylesheet Switcher Script
 that users can use to dynamically change
 text sizes on the fly.

Hello Ryan,

One might argue that offering a style changer solely to increase font size 
is something to reconsider, and I would agree, but then again, there's no 
real harm in doing this.

Here are two PHP scripts that you are welcome to use.

1) PHP Font Sizer: This lightweight script is a straight-up font sizer offer 
the user 4 values (default settings are 100%, 120%, 140%, 160%). This script 
requires the user accepts cookies and it doesn't check for this unlike the 
next option. This script was made in July of 2006 and could probably be 
tweaked, but that's always the case.
http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_font_sizer.php

2) PHP Style Changer: This smart script first tests to see if the user 
accepts cookies. If they do accept cookies then the script user interface 
(simple text link) will be available to them. If they don't allow cookies 
they can get a message saying a script is available to them if they decide 
to change that settings, or, better yet, just don't offer the feature they 
can't use. Just make sure the text size is adequate upon landing. This 
script is optimized for two style sheets, but it can be extended with a 
little effort. This script was made in Sept of 2006 and could probably be 
tweaked, but that's always the case.
http://mikecherim.com/experiments/php_style_changer.php

The advantage to these is that they are both server-side scripts so they 
don't require that the user have JavaScript enabled in addition to cookies.

Hope this is useful to you.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Users can choose to open a new window or tab if they want to (though many 
will need to be taught this). If the choice is made for them by implementing 
the target attribute, the power of choice and preference is taken from them 
and it's irretrievable.

Personally I prefer links to open in the same Window. But that's me. And I 
don't want to force my preference on anyone. That's why it's nicer to leave 
it to the user to decide. The only way to let users decide is to open links 
in the same window by default and teach said users a function of their 
browser they may not be aware of. Or to provide some preference control 
widget.

My two cents.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim


- Original Message - 
From: Ryan Lin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank


Well,

I am just gathering more argument points so that the clients have
nothing to say but to agree and accept the concept. :)

Hassan Schroeder wrote:
 Ryan Lin wrote:

 With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link
 via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself
 believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be
 user decision, not wed designer/developer.

 Why? If you have logical arguments about this, beyond believing,
 why can't you use them to convince your clients?

 Just askin' :-)




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?

2007-06-21 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Richard Ishida wrote:
 It's annoying that it doesn't work so well in Opera,
 but I'd rather give the problem to Opera users than
 IE users.  This also seems a much more sensible
 approach. I guess I should contact Opera and see if
 we can't get this 'fixed'.

I'm bummed it doesn't work as well in Opera. I just realized that last night 
before I sent it (hence the after thought disclaimer). It's a usability 
issue because Opera users will think they can click something when they 
can't. Can't rely on a title attribute of course thus I think the best 
option is to make the visible text more clear -- temporary solution, anyway.

What I just did on my daughter's blog (http://sarahcherim.com/) is change 
the label text

From:

Use PayPal to give Sarah some college money as a way of saying thanks 
and good luck!

To:

Click the dancing cow to give Sarah some college money with PayPal as a 
way of saying thanks and good luck! 

And that way at least the what to do clue is visible to Opera users, and 
everyone else can get away with missing the cow and clicking the text so 
it's more like an enhancement. I had to do something. Still didn't add the 
legend, but I'll do that when I have more time to fool with it so it doesn't 
change the look.

Just a thought.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***pixel.gif

Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?

2007-06-20 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Thierry Koblentz wrote:
 I came up with this:
 http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/button.asp
 But it requires to move the text out of the button :(

I'm sort of just catching the end of this, but are you guys talking about 
something like what I did on my daughter's blog [1]?

[1] http://sarahcherim.com/ (look at the Contribution Cow on the sidebar)

I didn't use button (not sure if that's was the point or just making 
clickable image/text form posting).

Cheers.
Mike Cherim

PS. Just a little disclaimer, looking at the image/text form on that site I 
realized I should have used a legend instead of the heading. It's not 
clickable in Opera either, by the way -- just the image.
 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

2007-06-04 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Lucien Stals wrote:

 But a DIV is void of semantic.

Hello Lucien,

I'm pretty sure a fieldset should only be used to group form controls. But 
others have written that. The reason I'm responding is because of that 
written above. A div does have semantic value in that it's a division or 
section. As far as I know the only element that offers nothing but air is 
the lowly span.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields

2007-05-28 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Frank Palinkas wrote:

 For simple forms, I really like the technique
 of separating Required from Optional fields.
 Instead of dividing the form into two fieldsets
 (Required/Optional) would it be
 semantically/accessibly correct to instead
 use a header element (for example h4) to
 separate/identify the two areas?

Even though officially it is not, I sort of think of a legend as a 
heading -- a specialized, single purpose form-section heading, if you will. 
I like your idea, but those headings might be skipped in the user has a 
screen reader in form's mode ... I think (someone please confirm). If this 
is indeed a fact, some users would miss them which might confuse the form's 
use even more.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout

2007-05-27 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Katrina wrote:

 I note that in Mike's example, he using
 a br / in order to achieve a block-level
 style visual. Surely that should be avoidable?
 http://green-beast.com/gbcf/gbcf_form.php

Certainly it would be avoidable using label { display : block; } but I 
wanted the form to retain its current organization regardless of 
CSS-controls. I do believe this is an acceptable (as in non-harmful) use of 
the break element.

 If the fieldset to contain label/input pairs is true

It probably shouldn't be used for pairing as you describe, but rather a 
group of inputs that all share some common-ground. In my case I use them to 
contain groups of required versus non-required inputs as well as the type of 
information sought (contact info, etc.). I should have probably not done 
that to the submit type input though. That, I'm thinking it would have 
better left in the form's main fieldset and not given its own since it's 
grouped in with the form itself (a whole-form control) so to speak.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim


- Original Message - 
From: Katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout


Nick Fitzsimons wrote:

 While I agree that use of lists, tables or definition lists is mere
 abuse, a fieldset is for grouping thematically related controls and
 labels:
 http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET

So a hypothetical (semantic!) form could/should look something like this
(I'm sure there are at least a million things wrong with my example -
pretend those errors aren't there):


form action= method=
fieldsetlegendThe legend for the form/legend

   fieldsetlabel for=nameYou Name/labelinput type=text
name=name id=name/fieldset
   fieldsetlabel for=poetFavourite poet/labelinput
type=text id=poet name=poet/fieldset
   fieldsetlabel for=dinosaurFavourite dinsaur/labelinput
type=text name=dinosaur id=dinosaur/fieldset

/fieldset
/form


My point being that fieldset could be used to wrap label and input pairs?

I always thought you had to have a group of controls (more than one
input field).

I note that in Mike's example, he using a br / in order to achieve a
block-level style visual. Surely that should be avoidable?
http://green-beast.com/gbcf/gbcf_form.php

If the fieldset to contain label/input pairs is true, it would be
exciting because it would mean that the form would look reasonable in
vanilla and could maintain semantics.

Kat


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields

2007-05-27 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Paul Novitski wrote:

 As Thierry indicates, the original rationale behind
 this structure was undoubtedly simply to avoid
 cluttering a form occupying limited real estate
 with the word 'required' beside every required field.

That's why I like my technique of using fieldsets to group the required 
inputs. It serves the purpose, doesn't clutter, and doesn't rely on 
symbolism (and extra mark-up to make said symbolism more accessible).

 fieldset
  legendRequired Contact Info:/legend
   label for=nameEnter your full name:br /
input type=text id=name name=name value= /
   /label
   label for=emailEnter your email address:br /
input type=text id=email name=email value= /
   /label
 /fieldset

 fieldset
  legendOptional Contact Info:/legend
   label for=phoneEnter your phone number:br /
input type=text id=phone name=phone value= /
   /label
   label for=urlEnter your web site address:br /
input type=text id=url name=url value=http://; /
   /label
 /fieldset

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields

2007-05-27 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Paul Novitski wrote:

 What if it were simply the word required?

   pEnter your contact information:/p

   fieldset
   legendRequired:/legend

   label for=nameName:br /
   input type=text id=name name=name value= /
   /label
   ...

 That would vocalize required name,
 required email address,
 required password, etc.

Oh, Paul, you da man. I do like that suggestion very much. It is aurally 
perfect (a lot less wordy) and visually precise. Very good!

Cheers.
Mike







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields

2007-05-27 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Mordechai Peller wrote:

 Interesting; but what if you need (as is commonly 
 the case) non-required fields interspersed with 
 required ones?

Optional I suppose. Just group them accordingly using the technique.

fieldset
  legendOptional:/legend
labelPhone 
  input [...] /
/label
labelWeb site 
  input [...] /
/label
/fieldset

In a new fieldset grouping optional inputs.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields

2007-05-27 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
John Faulds wrote:

 But sometimes at least one phone number might
 be required but others are optional (e.g. mobile,
 home, fax etc) - doesn't seem as logical to split
 your phone number fields up into different
 groupings.

Great point, John. That's a conundrum for sure. And it will happen, the 
frequency thereof is probably in proportion to a form's complexity. In the 
example you illustrate it might be okay to stick to the required/optional 
thing, like so.

Enter contact info in the form below.

fieldset
legend: required
label/input: name
label/input: email
label/input: phone

fieldset
legend: optional
label/input: fax
label/inout: web

But I can definitely see instances where that just woudn't do and the 
logical groupings wouldn't allow such an easy solution. That's when we'd 
have to revisit one of the other methods we've been comtemplating I suppose, 
treating each occurence independantly unless a one-size-fits-all solution is 
found. A likely candidate might be putting the word in the in the label.

fieldset
legend: foo stuff
label/input: required foo one
label/input: optional foo two
label/input: required foo red
label/input: optional foo blue

:-)

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields

2007-05-27 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Terrence Wood wrote:

 Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:

 A likely candidate might be putting the
 word in the in the label.

 which will bring us back to doe. doe a deer,
 a female deer [from the sound of music]...

 I said:
 How about just including (required) on the
 end of each label,

 Then, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
 Some clients do not want this at all, they
 think it pollutes the visual.


Hello Terrence,

Yep. That's why I preceded that with:

 That's when we'd have to revisit one of the
 other methods we've been contemplating I suppose.

If that's the client's request it'd be time to wear one of the two hats we 
are forced to put on sometimes:

1) Wizard hat to figure out the best way deal with the situation at hand.
2) Salesman hat to convince the client of the benefits of usability and 
accessibility.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/








***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields

2007-05-26 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Thierry,

 What about marking up * used in forms with ABBR elements?

In your example you left the text instruction.

 pFields marked with * (asterisk) are required./p

Thus I'd say further treatment is unnecessary. And if you change that by 
removing the text instruction, there's no guarantee the user will get the 
expansion. In fact, if what I understand is correct in that most screen 
reader users don't expland abbreviations, they would only get asterisk 
spoken to them. They might wonder what its significance is.

Then again, and this may be a dangerous assumption on anyone's part, one 
might argue that an asterisk within a form label means that it is required 
and that this is a given... that everyone knows it. Or do they? :-/

---

As an aside, if something of this sort was a viable solution, I would lean 
towards using the defining instance element, DFN, to mark this up.

dfn title=Require field*/dfn

But the same issue applies to DFN as it pertains to the expansion of 
titles -- I think.

That's my two cents, anyway. I'll be interested in what others have to say 
about this.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/ 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout

2007-05-25 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Karl Lurman wrote:
 How am I going to highlight the label input
 pair without a container div? A fieldset?

Hello Karl,

I will add a div or paragraph to a form if needed. A division in the form 
normally marked by color or a border is okay (as that slight meaning will be 
carried by the Div in the same way) and if -- I don't usually -- I'm after a 
style I can't seem to achieve with the form's own elements. I just don't 
feel a table or list is the right way. Paragraph elements for errors if 
they're on the same page are okay, and spans are like little bundles of air 
so they're okay. I don't want to add something to the form that is going to 
disrupt its inherent goodness, so to speak.

Now, regarding your example, I wonder if something like this could be done 
in the partial form example below (?). Just thinking out loud. It's late 
here so I haven't the time to test it...

pFields marked with * (asterisk) are required./p

labelspan*/span Name: ?php echo $error; ?
input value= /
/label

- Note: Error would be empty if not applicable. And the script outputted 
error would be in an unclassed span like the asterisk.

Okay, now here's the proposed CSS...

label {
  display : block;
  width : 99%;
  height : auto;
  padding : 5px 10px;
  margin : 5px;
  text-align : right;
  border : 1px solid #000;
  background-color : #eee;
}

label span {
  color : red;
  font-weight : bold;
}

input {
  width : 30%;
  text-align : left;
  margin : 5px;
  display : inline;
  border : 1px solid #666;
  background-color : #f9f9f9;
}

I'm *guessing* the input will display within the somewhat styled label. But 
like I wrote, I didn't test it, I'd most likely have to fuss with it. And if 
I had to have the styling but couldn't figure it out eventually, I think the 
best remaining solution would be a Div so that's what I'd use too.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout

2007-05-25 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Good morning :-)

I should have expanded my example a little more since I do use the for 
attribute in labels, even when directly (implicitly?) associated:

form
  fieldset
legendSend us your contact info/legend
  pFields marked with * (asterisk) are required./p
label for=namespan*/span Name: ?php echo error(); ?
  input type=text id=name name=name value= /
/label
label for=emailspan*/span Email: ?php echo error(); ?
  input type=text id=email name=email value= /
/label
label for=urlWeb site:
  input type=text id=url name=url value= /
/label
   /fieldset
/form

(Note: The labels/names were chosen to best accommodate autofill users.)

Karl Lurman wrote:
 About putting the error in the label, not
 sure on that one either. Is
 an error a label after all...

Me neither actually, just not sure. In a way I think it's smart for 
accessibility in that it changes that label (changes what it says and what 
it means), and for locating the offense I think it's smart. On my form the 
errors are on a different screen with a #results bookmark so when submitted 
the user is brought directly to the result of their action (same for the 
success confirmation message), but getting back can be problematic. Either 
way, for screen reader users it can't be easy to know:

1) The results of their action.
2) How/where to fix the result if needed if unsuccessful.

 Man, I hope for us all that the new HTML and
 XHTML standards cover form semantics better...

Hehe, that might be a good thing. Take out some of the gray areas. It'll 
have to be pretty complete though since most of the gray areas are 
content-related and there are so many unique situations :-)

Cheers and happy Friday!
Mike Cherim







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout

2007-05-25 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
David Dorward wrote:
 Why not?

In response to... Stuart Foulstone wrote:
 The for attribute should NOT be used when 
 the label tag encloses the label text.

My question exactly. I can't see that it is in any way harmful. 

Cheers.
Mike Cherim



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces

2007-05-24 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
David Laakso wrote

 Notepad.

Me too. In my head I establish the looks of the design have a feel for 
colors, and know of some images, or a good idea of what I want in the end 
anyway (I can see the final product in my mind's eye), but I don't mock it 
up. I go right to Notepad and begin the structure.

If I did mock it up as an image first, I'd use Fireworks, though.

Cheers.

Mike Cherim





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout

2007-05-24 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Mariusz Nowak wrote:

 And other way - where it is written in
 specs that forms cannot contain tabular
 data? I would never use tables for anything
 else as for tabular data.. and it may
 happen that form constitutes tabular data.
 In such case I think we should use table
 element to structure that.

I think may be some confusion, Mariusz, because so far this discussion has 
been about putting a form in a separate structure such as a table or dl to 
contain or organize the form, not about putting a structure (like a table) 
in a form. It's the latter you seem to be talking about. I, too, was a bit 
confused by your first post because of this.

Cheers.

Mike Cherim






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout

2007-05-24 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Sander Aarts wrote:

 Does a form not have a sort of QA going on then!?

Hello Sander,

If one tries hard enough, it seems anything can be considered a list of 
sorts.

For example: A web page is a list of headings and content paragraphs, but we 
wouldn't use a list to layout an entire web page, so we instead use the 
appropriate mark-up: Headings and paragraphs.

A form is a list of controls and their related inputs, but we wouldn't use a 
list to organize form controls, so we'd use fieldsets/legends, labels and 
inputs. Using the QA scenario which you might use to try and justify the 
use of a DL to organize a form, let's swap out the elements with their 
appropriate ones (which need to be used anyway).

DL = Fieldset
??  = Legend
DT = Label (the Q)
DD = Input (the A)

It seems to me the form has everything we need to properly organize it. Once 
it's made we can add then a few styles and layout rules with CSS to make it 
look good. This means the DL isn't needed and would serve only as extraneous 
mark-up.

On my contact form I use something like this:

form
  fieldset
legendMy Form/legend

  fieldset
legendRequired Contact Info/legend
  labelName: input //label
  labelEmail: input //label
   /fieldset

  fieldset
legendOptional Contact Info/legend
  labelPhone: input //label
  labelWeb Site: input //label
   /fieldset

  fieldset
legendRequired Message/legend
  labelYour Comments: textarea //label
   /fieldset

   input value=Submit /
 /fieldset
/form

See a real (somewhat styled) example:  http://green-beast.com/gbcf/ (Demo 
Form)

Using this is satifies all of the needs of users and spec requirements. No 
definition list necessary or needed.

That's my thinking on it anyway. I certainly wasn't trying to make a case 
for using a list, any list, for a form.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map

2007-05-24 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Felisimina wrote:
 We are trying to put together a map of 
 Australia where the states appear on 
 hover and are clickable.

 As I understand it, the hover state can't 
 be used in area so I wonder if there is 
 a way to display the States on hover 
 without using javascript?

Hello Felisimina,

This might be a decent solution for you.

http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_map_pop.php

Cheers.
Mike Cherim





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout

2007-05-24 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Mariusz,

 substituting dt with label or
 dd with input doesn't seem
 right to me at all... you can't just swap
 them

I'm not really saying to swap them. I'm not pro-list or -table for form 
layout, I was just trying to pair the elements to show that form elements 
can serve in the same way (as they should). For example, instead of DT, use 
Label and leave the DT in the dictionary.

The point of my comments, though, was what I have been saying all along. You 
simply don't need additional structure to put a form on a page. All you need 
are the form-related elements: Form, fieldset, legend, label, input 
(varied), and textarea. Using these elements and CSS you can lay out a form 
and, if this done properly, it's good to go, semantic, valid, accessible, 
and actually fairly controllable. There is actually a lot one can do without 
having to introduce something like a list or table structure. Try clever 
floats, et. al.

But, as a disclaimer I should add that it's best probably to not do too 
much. If a form is styled it should probably be done minimally (if it ain't 
broken...). It is true that the legend element and how it relates to the 
fieldset can be a challenge (John Faulds has a good article about messing 
with legends [1]). It's also true not all browsers will support focus, and 
inputs like checkboxes, radio buttons, will display differently in different 
browsers, but there is a lot you can do without introducing anything else, 
especially in terms of positioning/layout. Roger Johansson has a good 
reference on form styling [2].

 Your example is simple form with really
 one thematic group and you have
 4 fieldsets there (?!).

Yes. I felt the groupings I chose were appropriate.

F1 - The Form
F2 - Required
F3 - Optional
F4 - Required again.
Submit

The Requireds are separated by the Optional, but I wanted to maintain the 
order I chose:

The Form
Required Name and Email
Optional Phone and URL
Required Comments
Submit

[1] http://www.tyssendesign.com.au/articles/css/legends-of-style/
[2] 
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200701/styling_form_controls_with_css_revisited/

Sorry if I was unclear in my previous posts. Hopefully my message is clearer 
this time 'round.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/








***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout

2007-05-22 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Steve Green wrote:
 No, a form is not a list of form controls [...]

I agree. A form is not a list, nor is it tabular data. I know this was 
originally a demonstration to show the lesser of two evils, but evil is evil 
so less wrong still isn't right. What I don't understand is why there is 
this exploration of form layout structures to begin with when a form in of 
itself is it's own form layout structure. All the needed tools already 
exist.

Why is a div needed, for instance, when the fieldset is already a 
container -- the proper container I might add -- for these form controls. 
Start with a proper form with all the right elements and you have something 
which looks good, is functional, and is perfectly accessible, and that's 
without styles. Then add CSS to the equation and it makes the need for 
additional structures and elements pretty unnecessary.

Granted the differences between browsers can create challenges, some of 
which simply cannot be overcome, but those generally affect the styling of 
specific inputs like checkboxes as one example. But laying out a form is 
straightforward and I can't see a need for anything else.

 Definition lists are the new tables.

I'm not aware of this, but I won't disagree. I'm just not aware of rampant 
abuse (but I do believe it and I'm not surprised). I just wrote a simple 
tutorial post [1] on my blog concerning lists and what they should be used 
for. For a definition list I could only really come up with three examples:

1) A glossary
2) FAQs
3) An interview transcript (when combined with blockquotes).
(All have a sort of QA thing goin' on.)

I suppose there are other semantic uses for this HTML structure of elements, 
but I was hardpressed to come up with any that weren't pushing the envelope 
too much.

Just my two cents.

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim

[1] http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=185








***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Semantics and small

2007-05-16 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

 For less important, there currently isn't an
 alternative, so small (albeit presentational)
 may be the only option ... or just going for a
 span, which is semantically just as meaningless.

FWIW, I use the small element on my blog, on my latest WordPress theme, and 
for Accessites [1] -- all use the same theme. On the home page the small 
element contains the tag line, and it contains the article/page title on 
inside pages. Like so:
h1span/spanAccessites.org
smallbr /The Art of Accessibility/small/h1How correct or 
semantically pure this method is I do not know. I am comfortable with it is 
all. The span is meaningless, but does happen to contain the [replacement] 
image over the still accessible text, the small break is a pause and 
conveniently breaks the line into two lines, then displays the secondary 
text that is in a way visually better -- without styles, that is, as it's 
not seen if styles are enabled. Moreover, I don't think it's in any way 
damaging doing it this way, and it's not bad for feeding search engines.

This is the only time I will use h1 on any page. Next up is h2.

I also use small to contain author credit line and other bits of less 
important content. Again, this is a practice I feel comfortable with. I'm 
not saying it is the right way. There are many methods as have been explored 
here. This one just happens to be mine.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim

[1] http://accessites.org/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms

2007-05-14 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Greg,

If I understand what you're asking, I *think* you could do something like 
this:

label for=amtBalance is within input type=text name=amt id=amt 
value=$ / of my credit limit /label

Then you can style the label to look right by controlling font-size, etc, 
and you could even style that input to look as it does in the email.

input#amt {
  border : 0;
  border-bottom : 1px solid #000;
}

I really don't understand what you're asking for regarding the select at the 
end.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/



- Original Message - 
From: Greg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:23 PM
Subject: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms


I have a dilemma that I hope someone can advise me on.  A client wants a 
fairly complex form that will have input fields in the middle of a line of 
text (think adlibs), and then a select box at the end of the line. For 
example:

[th]  Alert  ...  [th]  Status or delivery choice
[td]  Balance is within $_  of my credit limit[td]  select 
box [email/sms/both]

I hope that example made sense.  The problem we are facing is with screen 
readers, and our approach so far has been to create invisible labels with 
css.

Is there a more accessible way to make this type of form more accessible?

Thanks in advance,

Greg

 
http://www.wolkinsphotography.com
http://www.catscape.com







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage

2007-05-11 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Michael Brockington wrote:

 I'm not 100% sure this is the case, but
 what a screen reader _should_ do is to
 _read_ an acronym   and to _spell out_
 an abreviation.  Even if that is not yet
 the case, it seems likely in the future,
 assuming that we all use the correct
 elements in the first place...

That is my thinking on the matter too. If it is meant to be spoken (RADAR), 
it is the acronym-type of abbreviation. It is known that an acronym is a 
special type of abbreviation and in my mind this is determined by how it is 
handled by the reader. This is my rule-of-thumb when I'm deciding which is 
more proper to use in a given instance. I like having this as my 
rule-of-thumb because it takes the individual instance brainwork out of it. 
In other words I can have a consistent practice to rely on.

As abbreviations go, provided this thinking is correct, the acronym is 
somewhat uncommon. We wouldn't see it very often I suspect if IE supported 
abbr. If IE offered the proper support, I suspect there would be a far 
greater number of proper instances on the web since I feel most people use 
acronym for the styling and IE support.

Of course I cannot effectively support this by looking it up on the web 
because the lines on this have been blurred significantly over time so the 
dictionaries are of little help. I *think* I originally read this rule in 
the book, The Elements of Style (which is sort of a universally-accepted 
writer's rule book).

Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage

2007-05-10 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Hello Criag,

 Just how extensive should our use of the acronym tag be?

Not very, IMO.

We have some food for thought for you at Accessites. 
http://accessites.org/site/2007/02/dealing-with-acronyms-abbreviations/

Cheers.
Mike



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



  1   2   >