Re: [WSG] Investigating the proposed alt attribute recommendations in HTML 5
Bob: No amount of descriptive prose will mean anything to to a blind reader. Vlad: I've never heard such sh*t in my life. I've been following this thread with interest, and I have to agree with Vlad (if not with his exact choice of words...). I was waiting to see what kind of response Bob's assertion would generate, but I thought I'd let those already involved in the discussion have first say... Language is what we have as our primary tool of communication. There are others, of course - Rothko's paintings speak volumes (even if the man himself lets them speak, choosing enigmatic reservation about their meaning) - but to presume that because someone is blind, they can't understand the content of a visual image via a word-based description is incredibly (ahem) short-sighted. They're blind, not brain-dead. I'd suggest the shortcoming is not in their ability to understand an 'alt' description, but in your ability, Bob, to write one. To bring this back on-topic: it's not feasible, of course, to include a thousand-word essay as an 'alt' parameter of an img tag, if that's what's necessary to communicate the image's meaning (although there are other methods of supplying such meta-info). But including succinct, meaningful 'alt' descriptions of visual and/or graphic content can make blind people's experience of the web immeasurably richer. The skill of writing those 'alt's is part of writing for the web in general - a tricky and quite specific discipline. Being a web designer doesn't automatically include qualification as a web *writer*. If you can't do it, give the job to someone who can. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Investigating the proposed alt attribute recommendations in HTML 5
On 10 Sep 2007, at 1:24 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote:
Perhaps then you (or anyone adhering to this view) can supply, as
an example, a useful description of the cited Rothko? Or maybe one
of Jackson Pollock's works? ('No. 5, 1948' might be good)
And since art is often intended to prompt an emotional reaction on
the part of the audience, write that description so the audience
has an opportunity to connect emotionally with the described work
without putting your own bias into it...
Ready, set, go! :-)
Thanks to Rahul for looking at the issue; he's saved me some time. Of
course it's possible to describe even an abstract painting. It may, as
I said, take a thousand words, or an essay, or even a whole book - but
it can be done. We have this thing called language that makes it
possible. Whether or not the description is useful is subjective.
Georg: ...the importance of anything on a web page depends entirely on
the individual visitor's interests at the time of visit.
As for your second paragraph: you miss the point. My job in describing
a painting, or a photograph, to a blind person is *not* to convey any
emotional response that I might have to the image. It's actually
imperative that I *don't* include any bias. Any emotional response
possible should be the reader's, not the writer's; I would never
presume to tell a blind person how or what to think. I reiterate:
they're blind, not brain-dead.
And:
I'm not saying we shouldn't provide /some/ data, I'm saying that
some people are trivializing the difficulty of creating *useful* and
*relevant* alt text for complex images, especially those intended to
convey *emotion* rather than simply information.
Exactly. Good alt text is not trivial, and it's not easy, when the
image/s are complex and/or conceptual. But an attitude of 'it's too
hard, leave it out' is just plain lazy.
To get back to the original topic of this thread; Georg again: ... the
main (original) issue here is about making the 'alt
attribute' itself optional _in_ a future specification. Sure, make it
optional. Then those who can't be bothered writing alt text, or lack
the skill to, don't have to. Their sites won't provide as rich an
experience for blind visitors as they might, but hey - they conform to
the spec, so they must be OK, right?
And, Bob - I refuse to carry this conversation any further, as it has
degenerated into a nit-picking excercise. At least, one person has the
sense/experience to know what I'm talking about. I notice that no-one
has taken up the challenge of providing an emotional alt tag...
Pulling out of a conversation just because people disagree with you is
a cop-out. As for for 'emotional alt tags' - don't even try. It's not
your job; see above.
N
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Re: [WSG] Investigating the proposed alt attribute recommendations in HTML 5
Hassan Schroeder wrote: You can get a certain amount of information from a photocopy of a grilled cheese sandwich, but it makes rather a dry meal :-) Absolutely. But this whole thread started with the issue of whether alt text should be optional in HTML5. A photocopy may be a poor, 2-dimensional representation of the real thing, but a blank piece of paper isn't anything at all... Which is more useful? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property
Julián Landerreche wrote: I have tested this in: - Firefox 2.0.0.6 (both Win and Linux) Hmm. Not convinced that it's a bug; your line-wrapped link appears as you want in FF2.0.0.6/Mac OSX - ? To look at the issue laterally, if your fixed-width table requires that long links wrap, why invoke the no-wrap rule at all? Obviously this snippet gives no clue as to the broader context, but what if you leave white-space at its default setting of normal - by omitting it? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] When is invalid CSS okay?
On 23 Aug 2007, at 3:07 AM, David Hucklesby wrote: After all, if I write about the Sheraton Centre in Manhattan, my U.S. spell checker tells me I misspelled Centre. So do I change the spelling? I think not. Hmm. Interesting example. 'Sheraton Center' is a placename - a proper noun. Have you ever tried to use 'text-align: centre'? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Lower portion of lower case y does not appear in h1 in IE7
On 11 Aug 2007, at 10:01 AM, Joyce Evans wrote:
When I view the following link (which I’m working on) in IE7, the
lower portion of the “y” in the word “Physician” does not appear. I
see the entire “y” in IE 6 and FF 2 but not in IE7. This text is
sitting within an h1 tag within a #title tag. Does anyone have an
idea why I can’t see the lower portion of “y”?
Hi Joyce
Apart from the fact that you really shouldn't be using px to define the
size of your h1 text, try adding line-height to the h1 rule in your
css, and then tweaking the padding:
h1 {
color: #ff;
text-align: right;
font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 20px;
line-height: 22px ;
padding: 9px 62px 0 0;
margin: 0;
}
Tested in IE7/XP; haven't looked at 6...
HTH
N
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Re: [WSG] opinions on the sale of .com.au domain names
On 9 Aug 2007, at 10:38 AM, WebScience Australia wrote: Please reply with your business name, contact name and hone number, and the answers to the two questions. Offlist, of course, as this is waaay OT... N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 font not set in IE
On 17 Jul 2007, at 8:40 PM, Nick Roper wrote: http://dev.logical.co.uk/castlewelding/final/gates_railings.php The font for the h1 should be Garamond - as it is for the menus at the left. However it refuses to render in FF/Windows - although it is fine on FF/Mac. The other weird thing is that FF/Windows renders Garamond for the menus but not the h1. I have stared at it until I can't see wood for trees any more. I even tried adding an inline style attribute into the H1 tag - but that didn't work either. Am I missing something startlingly obvious? Umm... possibly that a font won't render if it's not present on the machine? I see Verdana for both H1 and the LH menu, because I don't have Garamond in my default set of fonts; I'd have to activate it with Suitcase if I want it. It would be a good idea to specify a family of fonts in your css, instead of just the one - that way you're supplying a fallback style for those that don't have Garamond. Choose fonts that are present on most OSs for best results. Maybe Palatino, or Georgia? See http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html for a handy list of common fonts for both 'doze and Mac. HTH N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: 2. If I don't include a dreaded hack in my css (which I'd really like to remove because my style sheet doesn't validate) So use a Conditional Comment - ? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-size 62.5% problem
On 2 Jul 2007, at 3:10 PM, Felix Miata wrote: Paul Collins apparently typed: I seem to be having trouble assigning the font-size:62.5% Please note that... Toldja. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x
On 2 Jul 2007, at 6:09 PM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: I guess I was hoping to fix the problem(s), rather than just rely on a hack. Other suggestions appreciated. Fair enough, but I'd say your chances of getting the one set of css rules to display correctly in all browsers are pretty slim - especially if you want to include browsers as flawed as Exploder 5.x. Even MS themselves accept how hard this is - hence CCs. I routinely serve as many as three alternative stylesheets vis CCs for different versions of IE. They only need to contain a handful of rules necessary to override the correct values served to compliant browsers. Whether you consider CCs a hack is, I guess, subjective. But your code will validate, and they're easy to remove with a global search and replace if and when the time comes that you don't need them any more. Why beat your head against the wall of buggy browsers when the manufacturer themselves supplies a workaround? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] scope, cols and colgroups
On 30 Jun 2007, at 4:11 PM, Stuart Foulstone wrote: Surely you don't mean that ;-) On Sat, June 30, 2007 2:49 am, Chris Price wrote: My thinking was that my real aim is to make the data useful so just making it valid or logical may not be my prime concern. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Yes, I did a double-take at this myself. Logical is subjective - but invalid is not useful. It's just a pain. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] scope, cols and colgroups
On 30 Jun 2007, at 6:07 PM, Chris Price wrote: I didn't say I would be happy for it to be invalid but poor design that validates isn't useful. No, you said, .. so just making it valid or logical may not be my prime concern. The point is, and the reason Philippe pointed out that your code wasn't valid, is that it's impossible (well, bloody difficult) to debug invalid code. Time and time again, on this list, we see requests for 'problems' regarding invalid code. Validating your code is not only sound practice; it's the first step - every time - in debugging. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?
On 30 Jun 2007, at 9:58 AM, Sander Aarts wrote: So you don't care at all about the cognitively challenged visitors to your site then? You're challenging me now as I don't have a clue what your talking about. How does adding 'skip links' make a site less usable/accessible for cognitively challenged people? I think that was an ironic reference to the KISS principle... N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?
On 30 Jun 2007, at 11:34 AM, Sander Aarts wrote: My 'skip to' menu is like a map of the page and I believe it benefits more people than it hinders. Can't argue with belief. If it works for you (but more importantly, for your visitors), go for it. But at the risk of presuming to take up Michael's pov for him, I understood him to be questioning whether making a page more complex actually improves usability. OK, your pages might be complex, and so you feel the need to provide 'road maps' for people to find their way around more easily - but if the page is so complex that you need to provide a map of the navigation and content, don't you think that maybe your page is too complicated? It suggests a review of the IA as a whole. (Granted, I have no idea of the content of your site, so I accept I'm talking in a general sense, but still...) Taken to (an admittedly illogical) extreme, you'd end up with a page, a map of skip links to explain what's there, and a map of the map to explain what's there, and... Do you do any user testing with the target group of visitors for whom you're providing this extra 'benefit' to see if it actually works for them? Or is it just your belief? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?
On 28 Jun 2007, at 6:50 PM, Frank Palinkas wrote: If the global site navigation on a page is marked up below the content... Hang on - if your nav is *below* the content, wouldn't the link be better as 'skip to navigation'? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page Structure
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...with a paper doc the user always gets to see the front cover. Unless they're blind. Thing about markup is, we can structure it for many more purposes than hard copy info can be. The most important blind visitor? Google... (Which I think is where this thread started.) Anyway, the web/hard copy comparison is always going to break down sooner or later. The. Web. Is. Not. Print. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page Structure
On 28 Jun 2007, at 11:03 PM, Sunday John wrote: The company logo is the image image and the representative of the company on the internet. Without the existience of the company the logo won't exist and without the branding the website wouldn't have come anyway! The content should just be readable and not to dominate the site. I think readability is alot different from donimations of content. So, lets even looked at it from this angle the company logo is part of the content :) True, to a point, but we're discussing searchability. How can you search for a company when you don't know it exists? You search for the goods or services that you want - don't you? Once you've found a company's site, then you know they exist, sure - but you wouldn't find them if the structure of their markup favoured searches on 'Billy Bob's Fab Shop'. You'd be searching on whatever it is that Billy Bob sells. That's why the page content is more important than the 'brand' - as far as SEs are concerned. Remember, too, that if you feel the need, you can style the company name and/or tagline as big, bold and bright as you like - and still put it in a p, or even a div. Your h1 could be 6px high and #ccc on #fff, but it still carries more semantic weight in the markup... N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page Structure
On 28 Jun 2007, at 11:41 PM, Sunday John wrote: Does a content based site respond to search engine than a well meta-tag, keyword e.t.c site? It's pretty much accepted now that meta name=keywords don't carry nearly as much weight as keywords (= search terms) in the actual content of a page. And Google - if you look at the results - returns your search term/s in the context of the page content, not the page title or meta name=description, although of course they're important too. The best advice I've ever found about optimising pages for SE results is: don't try and out-think a SE; it's too complex. Just concentrate on good, meaningful content, marked up in a semantically logical way. 'How to code for SE rankings' is just too big a subject to cover in a few words. Have a look at Danny Sullivan's site [1] or Google's own tips for webmasters [2] for good info. [1] http://searchenginewatch.com/ [2] http://www.google.com/webmasters/ N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page Structure
Sander Aarts wrote: How can you search for a company when you don't know it exists? How do you find out what goods a certain company sells if don't know what they are? Sorry, Sander, but that logic escapes me. Of course I don't know what goods a certain company sells if I don't know they exist. But I know what goods I'm looking for, so that's what I'll search on. You search for the goods or services that you want - don't you? Not always. If I want to know what campagnes Amnesty International is currently running, I don't want to search for every undemocratic country in the world. Not if you know how to use a search engine, no. And you're presuming that I know that Amnesty International exists - which is the whole point. What if I don't? I'd search on human rights abuses. You just can't tell how people are searching for information. You only know know on which keywords you defenitly want to be found. And I think that the name of the organisation is an important one (you don't want to disapoint people who already know your name). Exactly. But I still contend that my company name, being most likely more unique than any name of goods or services that I provide, doesn't require as much semantic weight in my markup and it will *still* be easily found by those who already know I exist - but that the strongest weight is given to the name/s and description/s of what I'm offering, because *I* think that's what the majority of searchers will be looking for. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page Structure
On 29 Jun 2007, at 5:44 AM, Sander Aarts wrote: Nick Gleitzman schreef: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...with a paper doc the user always gets to see the front cover. Unless they're blind. Well, they wont be seeing anything else then either, so semantics and hierarchy of headings doesn't really matter in that case. Unless they have it in braille maybe, but then they will probably start with the front cover as well. Exactly - which is why I said, later in the same post, that comparisons between web and print are pointless. But if you insist, supplying your nice glossy brochure or whatever with braille for unsighted people is *exactly* what we're talking about - Michael was referring to the 'visual weight' of the branding on a site or a document. Semantic XHTML gives us a way of providing that weight to blind visitors - by choosing the appropriate h* we can get their assistive technology device (whatever that may be) to tell them thata certain piece of info is more important. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page Structure
On 27 Jun 2007, at 6:43 PM, James Jeffery wrote: H1 should be your company name, or logo. h1img src= alt=/h1 Some people like to use IR (Image Replacement) for logos, but a logo is your brand, just as your name is your brand, so i wouldnt use IR on a logo. Tagline should be H2. Im not sure on what you mean by page content, i wouldnt wrap the whole content in a H*, thats abusing the H* element. h1logo or company name/h1 h2tagline/h2 . PAGE CONTENT .. Your page content might consist of a number of elements, Divs, Lists, Paragraphs ect. But the important thing to remember is use the H* element where a heading is needed. Hmm. Not sure I agree with this. I think the advice Ed's been given is good - if SE results are essential to the success of the page, then I would put 'Rugby World Cup 2007 Packages' in the h1. I know the convention is to use h1 for the 'brand', but then every page on a site has the same h1... What about the title tag? It's important for SE rankings, too - I put the 'brand' info (Co. name, tagline) in it and then the same info in the body doesn't need to take up the all-important h1. Are Ed's clients' customers more likely to search on 'Glory Days' or 'Rugby World Cup 2007 Packages'? HTH N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Table Problem
On 26 Jun 2007, at 8:45 AM, Olajide Olaolorun wrote: Can some help me with this problem: http://www.olajideolaolorun.com/problem.html Its right when i view it in Firefox, but in IE, its problematic. Can anyone help me out as to why it is not aligning right? Firstly, I assume that you mean 'aligning correctly', not aligning to the right... Your code contains this: tr td valign=top width=30% align=leftStrONGName:/StrONG/td tdinput type=text name=Name size=30/td /tr Note that the td containing the input has no ' align=left ', as the td containing the text does. I think adding this will improve your layout. BUT - your code has many errors. You should validate it before posting a request for help here, as many simple problems can be solved by validating your code: you can't, for instance, use StrONG with a XHTML Doctype. Must be lower case. Your use of inline font tags, non-breaking spaces, and some would say the table for layout at all, goes against the whole ethic of Web Standards. All your presentational instructions should be handled by css, either in the head of your file, or called from an external stylesheet. With respect, it looks like you're a beginner, or at least a novice, with HTML. If this is the case, I suggest you use a HTML4 Doctype (or no doctype at all), and leave XHTML until you know a bit more about what you're doing... HTH Nick ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tackling tabular data + per row form input
On 22 Jun 2007, at 5:41 PM, C. Bergström wrote: ...a clean and valid html way to display tabular data... ...is a table - isn't it? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Container Background Image Does Not Appear in Firefox
Joyce Evans wrote:
I’m new to this group, and I’m not sure if it’s okay to post a
question, but here it is:
I’ve designed a website and am now creating the CSS for the home
page. This is the CSS for my main container div:
#container {
width: 760px;
background-color: #00;
color: #00;
margin: 0 auto;
padding: 0;
text-align: left;
background-image: url(images/bg_container.jpg);
background-repeat: repeat-y;
}
The problem is that the bg_container.jpg image does not appear in
Mozilla Firefox; however it appears in IE 7. bg_container.jpg is 760
px wide with the first pixel and the last pixel being black. All the
pixels in between are white, thus creating a thin black border on the
left and right hand sides of the 760 px container. In the latest
version of Firefox, I do not see these two black lines.
Hi, Joyce, and welcome.
Of course it's OK; that's what we're here for!
It's difficult to tell what the problem might be just from your post,
because you don't say whether your css is in the HTML file or a
separate css file - in any case, if you can, it's always a good idea to
post a link to a live page where we can see your code in action.
A couple of points, though:
First, your #container div has a black background, but you're filling
it with a white image file - so you'd need too be aware of any problems
this might create with legibility of the content that sits over the top
of that background;
Second, is there any reason why you're using a bg img instead of simply
using left anf right borders on the #container div?
Third, if you do need to use that image as the bg, consider a gif
instead of the jpeg. It will be a lot smaller in file size, and
sharper, too, if you knock out all the colours in it except black and
white...
HTH
Nick
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Re: [WSG] Web Publishing Guide [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
On 18 Jun 2007, at 1:18 PM, dwain wrote: Dale, Tim wrote: Today, AGIMO released the Web Publishing Guide this is nice, but do you have anything for the unites states along this line? With respect, don't you think that guidelines for the US would better be written by someone in that country, rather than here in Australia? N (puzzled) ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] force download a media file
On 13 Jun 2007, at 8:10 PM, SJL wrote: I have this problem where i want to force download... I actually want the save as window to appear and give the choice to the viewer. Hmm. I've been following this thread, with its discussion of headers, MIME types and content-disposition, and I have to say that your post suggests a fundamental dilemma, even before you get to all the server-side shenanigans: you can't force your visitors to do anything - and especially not if you want to 'give them choice' as well! The web is unique, in that it's a user-configurable medium. In the same way that we shouldn't try to serve the same pixel-perfect layouts to every visitor, you shouldn't expect to be able to 'force' your visitors to download a file. If their browser is configured with a helper app that handles your file inline, let it happen! Savvy surfers expect a measure of control - or at least the illusion of control - over their experience. That's why you hear, over and over, not to use pop-ups, new windows, or other practices that take that control out of their hands. They don't like it - and they'll go somewhere else. 'Podcasts' all over the web (and I quote the word because it's becoming a generic term for a downloadable audio file) are supplemented with a single, simple instruction: 'Right-click (or Control-click) and choose Save As...' Now *that's* giving your visitors choice. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Michael MD wrote: Speaking of Mac browsers - a friend called me on the weekend and said he can't find anything newer than IE5 for OS9 but won't upgrade to OSX because it would be way too slow on his G3. (and he doesn't have the money to buy a new machine) now that is something to think about! Speaks volumes for the longevity of Macs, if you ask me. It's equivalent to saying, 'I can only run IE 4.x because I only have a 386 (486? What do I know?) processor and Win 95.' Or whatever. How many 386/486 machines do you still see out there? Tell your friend he should be able to run Netscape 7 without too much fuss. Cameron Singe wrote: I normally use the university macs for testing, the scary thing is they still have IE 5.5 as the default browser Nope. IE for Mac stopped at 5.2.3 - and don't make the mistake of comparing IE 5.x/Mac with IE5.x/Win. They're completely different programs; they just happen to have similar names. Felix Miata wrote: If all you use it for is running Safari or IE5 or Camino, a G3 is way more than plenty fast enough to run OS X. Yes, but Michael didn't say his friend was 'just' looking to use a browser. I got the impression he's still using his G3 for all his computing needs. There again, at least you can dual boot a G3. Stiil a pain to have to reboot just to surf the web... N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Nick Roper wrote: Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea to use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely to get is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively. The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt sites which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even Word docs, which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as probably an abuse of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation. What if I don't have Word installed (and why should I?)? The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled over time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using HTML in favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have it pointed out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply out of touch with what's needed. HTH (a bit) N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?
On 6 Jun 2007, at 2:59 PM, John Faulds wrote: Well if we're going to talk about 'pedanticness' it has to be pointed out that there's no such word; the word you're looking for is 'pedantry'. Pedanticity? ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?
Raine wrote: Let me be so bold as to nip this thread in the bud... Gee, sorry. I just thought, given the intensity that some people display here, a little levity every now and then helps the medicine go down - or something... Look what fun we can have: ... often tiresome ... display ... and ... trivial ... insistence on precision ... and excessively subtle reasoning. BTW, was there a point to posting the same definition twice? N ;o) ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ie word wrap mess-help
On 7 Jun 2007, at 8:34 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hi can anyone suggest how i might get this definition list to wrap around First, and always, validate your code. Your dl doesn't contain a dt... N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Help with css cascade problem from external style to internal style
On 7 Jun 2007, at 2:25 PM, JS Bracher wrote: Once I realized the problem was a specificity issue, I changed the internal style block to: li#index a, li#index a:hover ... Hopefully you changed the HTML as well, because the sample you originally posted had the id of 'index' on the a, not the li - ? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
On 5 Jun 2007, at 3:34 PM, Jackie Reid wrote: The fact the validator passed it also seemed to me to say that it could be used in this way. If fieldset can't be used this way why does it pass validation? Forgot this point: valid doesn't mean correct, or sensible. It's really easy to write code that validates, but which is semantic rubbish. The Validator is a great tool for checking the correctness of markup, but it can't interpret context - it's just a dumb piece of software. Oh, and while we're talking semantics: fieldset = set of fields - doesn't it? Comes back to those tables again. You can - they'll validate just fine, if you do 'em right. But does that mean you should? How robust will your markup be, over time and across technologies? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
On 5 Jun 2007, at 6:13 PM, Patrick Lauke wrote: No need to debate it...w3schools is a cr*ppy resource, full stop. That's an opinion, which of course you're entitled to (happens that I agree with you) - but I couldn't resist taking a look. And right there on their Home page: W3Schools provides material for training only. We do not warrant the correctness of its contents. The risk from using it lies entirely with the user. Well, yes. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
Barney Carroll wrote: ...a deceased squirrel foetus Wow. What an image. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?
Lucien Stals wrote: I suspect that the following code... fieldsetlegendstaff details/legend dl dtemail/dtdd[EMAIL PROTECTED]/dd dtphone/dtdd12345678/dd /dl /fieldset Is perfectly valid, semantic markup which a screen reader would render just fine. Logical, no doubt of it. But see Steve Green's post which said, JAWS ... can only enter 'forms mode' when a form control has focus. Does that mean that JAWS won't read the contents of the legend element because it's not in 'forms mode'? And if not, how important is it for clarification of what follows that the legend be read? If the answer to that is 'not', or 'optional', there's not much point in including it - is there? But can I point out, Ben, that at no time did anyone ever suggest placing form elements in the middle of general content. I'm not sure where you got that one from. I understood Ben to be referring to the fieldset element itself. But if a fieldset is a form element, and is used out of context of a form and its controls, then it *is* ...a form element cropping up in the middle of general content... - isn't it? Don't you just love circular arguments? Whoops, discussions? N PS Before anyone gets bent out of shape by minimal quotes from previous posts changing their context or meaning, can I respectfully remind them that the previous posts and threads are always there for refererence? ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
On 5 Jun 2007, at 11:41 AM, Lucien Stals wrote: ...the fieldset itself can contain anything... Huh? Where in the spec does it say that?! And why would you want to use something for which it's not intended? It would surely, at best, be semantically confusing. Some legacy code I just picked up contains multiple instances of this, and other equally dubious logic: span style=font-weight: bold;blah/span What's wrong with b/b? (OK, it should be strong/strong, but this is an old page without even a DOCTYPE - presumably from the good ol' days of HTML3.2) Similarly, why use a fieldset when a simple div will do? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommended screen size
On 2 Jun 2007, at 12:29 PM, Katrina wrote: that position is about to undergo a 360 degree change tongue-in-cheek ...which will bring it back to where it started... /tongue-in-cheek N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] layout/font site test - please
On 2 Jun 2007, at 8:06 PM, Designer wrote: I've used a simple table Nothing wrong with that, if NN4.x is in your group of target browsers. But you might like to consider adding a rule to your css so that the content of the RH column is anchored to the top of the cell - at present it's displaying default behaviour of valign=middle, making it drop lower as the viewport is narrowed... N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ie positioning help needed
On 3 Jun 2007, at 8:44 AM, Mark Hedley wrote: ...for IE6 and to be fair... who uses it still?! How about 56% of your audience?! http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2007/May/browser.php N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] OT on list
Hi folks Is it just me. or have a whole slew of recent posts been OT? CMS: there's a CMS list just for you guys. Please use it... Photoshop and JAWS: sorry, Marvin, but that's just OT for this list. Can we get back to the on topic issues of Web Standards, perchance? Check the guidelines - if you you need to preface a post with, This is probably OT, but... then it is. So don't post... Thanks N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] OT on list
Stuart Foulstone wrote: Assistive technology off topic? Barney Carroll wrote: It's worth making the point: Don't get intimidated by this - JAWS is a perfectly legitimate thing to discuss here. When it's used to access Photoshop - which in my experience doesn't have a whole lot to do with Web Standards - yes, it's OT. Just to fill in a small blank for those who don't know: Marvin, who asked the original question, is blind, so the use of JAWS is immensely more relevant to him than it is to we sighted members. But the simple fact remains, that while I hope that Marvin can get the help and advice he needs, this ain't the place to ask. Barney Carroll also wrote: But I digress: Let's see how popular we can make this thread. A web standards list about grammar, oblique self-references and wilful misunderstanding, that's what we could all do with. Hehehe. You guys crack me up. Anyone like to hear what I did on my holidays? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
kevin mcmonagle wrote: I am going to start with the sliding doors 2.0 article on ala. Does anyone have any advice or examples regarding a sideways tabular nav bar? You've got the right starting point - but be aware that (in my previous experience) IE/Win (of course...) doesn't honour the background image change on mouseover - unless the bg img is in the a. Hmm - occurs to me that the js fix for Exploder that's used for Suckerfish dropdowns [1] may be adaptable to your tabs - ? But then, of course, you've got to think about degradation when js is disabled... [1] www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
kevin mcmonagle wrote: Thanks nick i might need to implement that js fix. The sliding doors method, or any that ive seen, only works if all the tabs are the same colour. Ah. Of course. I'm sure you could make your design work, but there would be a lot of classes and/or ids involved to target the specific tabs, and a whole lot of css as a consequence... I will have to change my design cause i dont have time to figure id out-in fact even if i did have the time that would be a tough nut to crack. Your call, of course - you know how much time you have. But better to find out now whether your design is viable, than many hours into wrestling with it! N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] making form elements the same height
On 25 May 2007, at 5:18 PM, Taco Fleur wrote: http://www.clickfind.com.au/test-index.html I am trying to get the form elements the same height Hi Taco Form Submit buttons are system-level widgets - they're different shapes and sizes according to which browser/OS combination is in use. They're notoriously difficult to style, as in most instances, being generated at the system level, they just won't accept css styling. Have you thought about using a custom image, which you can make the size you want? This is only a partial answer, of course, as an image (unless it's sized in ems or %) won't enlarge as the text is enlarged. You already have a problem in that regard, as one level of enlargement is enough to cause your Submit button to wrap to the next line... (I'm viewing in Safari/Mac - and the Submit button also doesn't resize with text - it's just pushed around.) BTW, 5,712,590 million = 5,712,590,000,000 N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
On 25 May 2007, at 11:44 AM, Felisimina Jom wrote: We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using javascript? Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? You'll need to create a series of graphics of the whole country with the various states highlighted as you require. Then use css to define which graphic appears on hover - note the whole graphic is replaced, not just the state under the cursor. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
On 25 May 2007, at 1:22 PM, Tim wrote: So what do you know about change management Nick? Comment on the research Nick, stick to the issue instead of trying so pathetically to belt me up. The page is not intended for you Nick. Take a bex and have a good lie down. Tim Reply made offlist as debates of qualifications and recommended medications are definitely OT. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
On 25 May 2007, at 1:58 PM, Lachlan Hardy wrote: Reply made offlist as debates of qualifications and recommended medications are definitely OT. /* Admin */ Agreed. This thread is now closed as the majority of content appears to be OT, and is certainly not conducive to helping anybody This list is for discussing and debating web standards and close-related topics. I would prefer this was done in a friendly helpful manner. The list rules *require* that this is done politely and professionally Keep this in mind Thanks Lachlan Hardy At the risk of incurring further admin wrath, I'd just like to share that it only took two more emails offlist before Tim resorted to the irrefutable intellectual argument of telling me to f**k off. Speaks volumes, really. Communicate with him at your own risk. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
On 23 May 2007, at 7:36 AM, John Faulds wrote: I doubt there's any laws in Australia that prohibit me having sex with a wombat - doesn't mean it's something that's OK to do though Damn. ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] width of inline lists
On 20 May 2007, at 10:02 PM, Designer wrote:
div#menu li{
width : 250px;
display : inline;
list-style-type : none;
}
snip
and, of course, the 'width : 250px' is just ignored. I've tried
setting a width on the a but that doesn't work either.
MUST I use a table?
No, just use float:left instead of display:inline for the li.
N
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Re: [WSG] width of inline lists
On 20 May 2007, at 10:02 PM, Designer wrote: Has anyone got a (simple) workaround for the fact that I want to specify the width of each li in an inline list? (which is not allowed). Sorry, previous answer was incomplete. Not allowed? By whom/what? Float the lis left, give each one an id and you can customise widths to your heart's content. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
On 16 May 2007, at 7:28 PM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: What would you have done in this situation? Find another client - or risk sounding like a whiner yourself. At the end of the day, you can give clients informed choice, but you can't *make* them follow your advice. If they can't see the benefits of a standards-based approach, sack 'em if it hurts too much to work with 'em. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
On 16 May 2007, at 11:28 PM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: http://www.wizwebz.co.uk ... http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/zen/ sample.css OK, enough - I quit. How can I possibly compete with these world-class designers? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] strong v's b , em v's i
Robby Jennings wrote: I've found this list of depreciated tags http://www.html-reference.com/depreciated.htm which lists strong and em as depreciated. I thought the b tag would be depreciated. Don't like the look of that page much. Must be old. Very vague, infers that HTML4.0 is new, doesn't mention doctypes... here's a better reference [1] - straight from the source, and no mention of deprecation for *any* of those four elements. Of course, that's HTML4.0. If you're planning to code to a flavour of XHTML, things change. There, b and i are definitely deprecated, but I think your source is wrong in saying that strong and em are also... b and i are presentational, and so are considered to have no place in html markup. Personally, I use inline strong and em elements because they can be styled conventionally - or not, as a design requires - via css but still maintain a basic level of control over semantic emphasis within the text. As a quick aside to the main issue, but staying with the theme of correctness, elements which are recommended not to be used are deprecated. Depreciation is what happens to your shiny new car/PC/camera/iPod the moment you take it out of its box. Kind of ironic that html-reference.com have this error embedded so deep it's in the filename... [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/elements.html N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] What do we say if we don't say click?
John Horner wrote: I'm looking at a design involving image thumbnails and the instruction to click images for larger version -- I have the idea that saying click is wrong, or rather the assumption that everyone is using a mouse is wrong. So, how would you word this instruction, or otherwise inform users that a small image links to a larger one? Images are linked to larger versions seems to passive-voice to me, and I can't think of any generic term for using a link. I racked my brain over this one, too (I build a lot of image galleries), and finally settled on 'Select an image to enlarge'. Long translation: 'Use whatever navigation method your browsing device employs to select an image thumbnail and hit enter to see an enlarged version.' Works for me. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] How to mark up a flowchart?
Hi all I have to incorporate a couple of simple flowcharts into the content of a site I'm building, I'm scratching my head about the best way to mark up this info in a semantically meaningful way. A generic example can be seen here: http://www.omnivision.com.au/test/flowchart/ I'd be interested in the list's response. Thanks Nick ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] alternative to target=_blank in xhtml 1.1
Gallagher, Robin wrote: Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the results open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do this in xhtml 1.1? Umm... teach 'em how to use the software? A good browser allows the choice of a new window - or tab - with a modifier key added to the mouse click. If all else fails, or you tell us that they're stuck on IE/Win, then right-click Open in new window. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Strange empty XHTML element issues in IE FF
On 22 Feb 2006, at 9:16 AM, Paul Hempsall wrote: Issue 1: In the Head section of my XHTML I had an empty script element (see below). IE refused to load the page. FF had no problem with this. script type=text/javascript src=nav.js/ To get IE past this line in the markup I had to change the text to read: script type=text/javascript src=nav.js/script Issue 2: In the body of my document I have an empty div. IE rendered the page correctly. FF didn't close the element, so my CSS didn't get implemented correctly. div class=clear/ To allow FF to process the div, I had to modify the line to: div class=clear/div Easy. In both cases, 'self-closing' elements is incorrect. Both script and div need full closing: /script and /div, whether they're empty or not. HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Plain text v HTML on this list
A frequent request, which occasionally needs to be remade: could list members please use plain text for posting? It makes the posts much smaller in file size, which is kinder to those who only have dialup connections (yes, there are still some), but more importantly, makes the posts more legible. I, for one, tend to skip over posts which are rendered in my mail client in teeny tiny text... Thx N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Strange empty XHTML element issues in IE FF
On 22 Feb 2006, at 10:00 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Nick Gleitzman wrote: Easy. In both cases, 'self-closing' elements is incorrect. Both script and div need full closing: /script and /div, whether they're empty or not. To expand on that answer: unless you're sending XHTML with an XML or XHTML+XML MIME type, you must follow the compatibility guidelines under Appendix C of the XHTML 1.0 spec. This particular case is covered under C.3... C.3 Element Minimization and Empty Element Content Given an empty instance of an element whose content model is not EMPTY (for example, an empty title or paragraph) do not use the minimized form (e.g. use p /p and not p /). http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#C_3 P Thanks, Patrick and Lachlan, for that clarification. I was so distracted by trying to make out Paul's miniscule font size that I didn't read his first line properly... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team
On 10 Feb 2006, at 10:49 AM, Cade Whitbourn wrote: Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the developer community in fixing sites for IE7. I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with all the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify. I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar contact from the IE7CPTTM yet? C a d e W h i t b o u r n Web Designer - Web Projects and Business Development Australian Stock Exchange www.asx.com.au Hmm. ASX, hey? Well, they sure know where the money is... Maybe they're starting at the top and working their way down? Or maybe they just have a vested interest - ? N (Cynical? Me? Naah...) ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Background-Image download order
Is there any logic I can apply (ordering CSS etc) that will affect the order the browser requests and downloads background images? Bear this in mind, too - some browsers will call *all* images specified with the background property in your CSS file, whether they're needed for that page or not. I fell foul of this one, and was wondering why my first page was taking ges to render. The solution? Boring, but multiple CSS files, one for each page, containing only the bg image declarations for that page. HTH... Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Background-Image download order
On 2 Feb 2006, at 1:24 PM, Ric Raftis wrote: Nick Gleitzman wrote: Boring, but multiple CSS files, one for each page, containing only the bg image declarations for that page. Maybe I've missed something, but why wouldn't you just have the one css file but declare the background image in the head section of each individual page? You could, of course, but I use external files for the same reason that I don't include the whole CSS file in the head - separation of of content and presentation. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Background-Image download order
On 2 Feb 2006, at 1:18 PM, kvnmcwebn wrote: nick Bear this in mind, too - some browsers will call *all* images specified with the background property in your CSS file, whether they're needed for that page or not. errr.. what browsers? Safari, from memory... it was a while ago. Later versions may have seen a fix. Sorry, don't have time to test right now... I wonder what would happen if the seperate stylesheets were alled called in from one importer stylesheet? would that make any sense? Uh - wouldn't that result in the same problem? If a browser reads a CSS file, it will process all the other files called by it - won't it? N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] li background image
On 14 Dec 2005, at 11:19 AM, Nathan Wheatley wrote: it does not work. I can't see why it does not, but after measuring the pixel height of the buttons the above outputs, the height is only 15px. Is there a way to force the 26px height? Add 'line-height: 26px' to your declaration for li... HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Safari not loading website
We are using relative links in Javascript to open the attachments. Could please anyone shed light on what might be causing this. Well, you've answered your own question! Use absolute paths in your links. (and... Lotus Notes?! Ouch...) N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Validate a PNG?
On 9 Nov 2005, at 7:02 PM, Absalom Media wrote: ...and the requirements state XHTML and CSS compliance as a specific requirement for submission to the contest. The twist is that the designs must be submitted as PNG or JPG... Huh? Sounds to me like the organisers just don't know what they're talking about. Unless their intention is to vet designs as images, and only look at the code of shortlisted entries - ? Weird. Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] is this a tabular data?
On 30 Oct 2005, at 11:43 PM, Jad Madi wrote: I'm not sure if i'm going to use defining trick, what I know about standards markup and symantic, is to use the tag by it's meaning rather than by How it look like, If that is so, can you do any better with your class names than 'pinktext' and 'bold'? What if it gets changed to green, italic text? N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool search plugi n!
On 7 Oct 2005, at 9:15 AM, Drake, Ted C. wrote: it is going to make my life much easier Ted, speaking of which - HTML messages, untrimmed - up to 34KB, and counting. Do us a favour? Thx - N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions
James Oppenheim wrote: I tend to use underscore for class and id, try very much to stay away from two word file names. This is a question (discussion?) that comes up every couple of months here on the list - ultimately, I reckon you'll get as many 'conventions' in use as you've offered suggestions. I think it's very much down to the individual - and the ease with which other members of a team (or inheritors of legacy code) can work with your css. I believe there are strong arguments for creating filenames that result in logical, human-readable URLs. Underscores in class id names are not a good idea - some browsers don't read them properly, and the styles aren't rendered properly, if at all... from memory, an early Safari was one such. HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hiding Headings
Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
1. Put the H1 in there, but set it's display to none on the style
sheet.
2. Set the header overflow to hidden, then set the top padding on the
H1 to be a pixel more than the header's height - thereby hiding the
heading text.
One problem I discovered with the second method - you can drag the
content in Firefox, revealing the heading...
Which approach is better? Do search engine spiders know the heading
is hidden in scenario one and skip that text? Is there a known
workaround for the issue caused by scenario two?
Instead of {display: none}, use {margin-left: 999px}. Visitors won't
see the H1 text, but Search Engines will; and nothing to see if content
dragged...
N
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Re: [WSG] computer arts mag article/review
On 26 Sep 2005, at 9:50 AM, Duncan Heal wrote: Incidentally, is there some sort of 'real' designer certificate I can get?! ;) Yup, it's called a cheque from a satisfied client. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] computer arts mag article/review
On 26 Sep 2005, at 10:11 AM, kvnmcwebn wrote: Do most wsg members - who do both the design and mark up - actually go to code when the design is done without looking back? I try but alway end up going back and forth to make improvments. It eats time. This is probably the biggest benefit of the whole web standards process for me, i mean the time it saves when i decide to change something after im 30 pages into a site. I guess part of my question is when do you know the design is there from a wsg point of view? Is it when you know the client will go wow that looks nice? maybe this is o.t. and too subjective a topic No, I don't think it's OT. To qualify my tongue-in-cheek comment about a cheque - design is not a static process. It's a continuum. And with this medium in particular, unlike print where sooner or later a commitment has to be made, the design process carries right into production. Many clients will continue to request changes as they 'live with' the designs we supply, and coding to Standards, as you say, makes incorporating those changes much, much easier - regardless of what stage of development a site is at. That's not to say we shouldn't charge for those changes, of course. Careful control of 'scope creep' and a clear agreement about what constitutes author's corrections should always be in place... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] UTF and IE/Mac - extra character?
Hi all
I'd really appreciate it if anyone can shed light on this non-critical
but annoying anomaly.
I've just built a couple of pages using UTF encoding, rather than
iso-8859-1, and all is as expected, except that in IE/Mac, if you View
Source, there's a single character ('?') as the very first character of
the file - and it renders. Thought at first it might be a localhost
thing, but it happens with the online version as well... This character
is not evident when Viewing Source with any other browser - or in the
HTML file.
HTML is written with BBEdit; I've set prefs to save files as UTF-8
(tried with and without BOM - makes no difference).
Any ideas, anyone?
Page is at http://www.omnivision.com.au/reed/index.htm
Thanks
Nick
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Re: [WSG] UTF and IE/Mac - extra character?
First thing I thought when reading your message: BOM. And indeed, it is there. I remember, when I still used BBEdit @version 7, I had a hard time getting rid of it. I think you have to set it first in the application prefs, save without BOM, before opening any document. Thanks, Philippe. That did it. I needed to set the prefs, then open a new doc, paste the code into it from the old one, and save. Voila - errant character gone. Cheers N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the struggle to get valid
On 10 Sep 2005, at 7:18 AM, Drake, Ted C. wrote: I hope everyone has a nice weekend. I thought I'd share a little code I stumbled upon on one of our legacy includes. pbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbr br brbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbr I'm tempted to extend that to 'I hope everyone has a break (or 32) over the weekend...' N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 9:31 AM, Paul Bennett wrote: be glad you're learning about web standards now - it'll make getting a good job a lot easier. The capability of my tutors wasn't much better than yours. Even Zeldman has lamented lately (sorry - googled and couldn't find the entry) that Universities can teach molecular physics but apparently are unable to teach standards-compliant web design. ...which just goes to prove the value of the Web itself as a community - and of lists like this. To paraphrase that old saw again: 'Those that can, do - and share. Those that can't, just get in the way.' BTW, just out of interest, I searched JZ's site for 'physics' with his internal search (Atomz?) and got only 3 references - to 'fiasco'. Kinda apt, though... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators
On 8 Sep 2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Thanks for the heads up, Lisa - that's really good to know. I did preface that adage with '(cynical)' - and I realise that my comments about education were a vast generalisation. So, newbies of the world, take note - Sydney is the place to be, if you want to learn how to do it right! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 10:43 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: But not everybody can afford this kind of employment mix. If you are a full time lecturer all you can rely on is books, training courses and seminars to learn from. What about the web itself? That's actually no different to being a student, with the exception that the lecturer has got a full time job in addition to having to learn all the stuff they have to then teach. ...and that's no different from having a full-time job as a developer, and having to research - and learn - all the new stuff. This industry makes it really hard to be a good long-term teacher, I think. If you are professor of mathematics you can pretty much rely on things not changing too much over the years. But teaching web development or something similar requires you to be learning new things non-stop. Of course it does - as does any field that is based on emerging, and rapidly changing, technology. Sorry, but 'I haven't got time' is a copout, IMO. I think what's more relevant is how long it takes for curriculum changes to be formulated, approved, and implemented - which takes time, because of the administrative structure of so many educational institutions. I know - I've worked on curriculum development committees in the past, and it took two years for the changes to reach the students - by which time the real world had moved on... N __ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 10:43 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: H This is going way off-topic, right? No, no - I've enjoyed the couple of heatedly debated threads over the past couple of days far more than the 'please fix my code' posts - without please or thank you - that are such a prominent feature of this list. It *is* a discussion group, isn't it? And I think that formal education of Standards is a critical way to get the word out there... and so, on topic. Admin, if you disagree, I'm sure we'll hear from you... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Troubleshooting page in Internet Explorer Mac
On 4 Sep 2005, at 8:33 PM, Officelink wrote: I'm having problems with the following page: http://www.officelinkonline.com.au/test/ It works fine in all modern browsers except Internet Explorer for the mac where the divs are stretching way over to the right for some reason. A quick look suggests that the problem lies with the nav block - if you disable the link to p7pmh2.css, you lose the styling of the nav, of course, but the rest of the page renders correctly. Seems that something in p7pmh2.css is conflicting with something in main.css... Sorry to be vague, but it's late... HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
Mordechai Peller wrote: In general, you should recommend that they examine the code of well written, semantically correct pages. Sure, but first you have to teach them to recognise such things... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Randomly load images into the background-image selector...
On 24 Aug 2005, at 6:47 PM, Bennie, Jack wrote: Does anyone know any neat code [JScript/CSS - not PHP] that can randomly load a selection of images into the 'background-image' selector? Which makes me wonder - will a browser call and execute javascript if it's contained within, or linked from, a CSS file? N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Center aligning links with a specified height
On 23 Aug 2005, at 7:48 AM, Kenny Graham wrote:
Try keeping them inline, and setting line-height to 40px. As long as
word-wrap doesn't become a factor, that should work fine. But since
you're using pixels, I'm guessing word-wrap would already cause
problems anyway.
Hmm... line-height on the a works for me in Safari 1.3/OSX 10.3.9 and
IE6/WInXP, but not in Firefox - strange.
I do, however, offer this solution to the centering issue - see my
modifications to your code at
http://www.omnivision.com.au/test/center_test.htm
Note that, when testing, I use backgrounds rather than borders to
identify the various elements; I find this gives a more accurate idea
of layout. If you have a number of nested elements, all those borders
add up to extra space...
I've left your CSS rules that I've disabled in the code, but commented
out so you can see what they were.
Note also that the inline-block solution doesn't work in IE5/Mac...
I think the key to centering the list is in an extra containing div
(id=shell) that allows the whole footer to be centered, with no fixed
width, so that {margin: 0 auto} works to center it, and it then expands
to the the width of its content (the ul). This extra div is
semantically null, I guess, but I'll take it as a viable solution!
Now for that height issue...
HTH
N
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Re: [WSG] Center aligning links with a specified height
On 23 Aug 2005, at 8:41 AM, Adam Burmister ((DSL AK)) wrote: Could somebody please check it in Safari? Hmm again - not quite. See http://www.omnivision.com.au/test/safari.gif Sorry, gotta go to work right now - I'll check in later and see how you're doing... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE in Virtual PC
On 20 Aug 2005, at 7:48 AM, Chris Kennon wrote: Would some knowledgeable participant enlighten on the behavior of IE in Virtual PC for the MAC? Respectfully, C PS I hope my questions are not banal, due to the absences of replies, I'm beginning to feel like the carrier of something contagious :) Well, not banal, maybe, but certainly a little vague... (at least this one). The answer that first comes to mind is - it displays web sites. Now, what is it that you really want to know? N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE in Virtual PC
On 21 Aug 2005, at 10:31 PM, Chris Kennon wrote: Does IE in Virtual PC display the same quirks as the XP, 2000 version of IE? I'm a MAC OS user, but would like to test CSS in IE before going to Browser CAM. Hope this clarifies :) C PS The wit of this list is just a sharp as the knowledge. Thanks for the compliment, Chris (I think). Philippe has pretty much answered the question. You load Win OS into VPC from original MS disks, so there's no reason to suspect anything will be different... I run WIn 2K and XP on VP7 on a 2x2GHz G5, and it's still much slower than a native Wintel box, as the processor is emulated by the software, but it's plenty good enough for testing. I've never come across anything that renders differently... HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE in Virtual PC
On 22 Aug 2005, at 12:18 AM, Jan Brasna wrote: Does this statement imply the machine hosting Virtual PC and IE becomes vulnerable to malicious software? No. Only the guest OS (WXP, W2K) is vulnerable. It runs in sandbox. no reason to suspect anything will be different Colors are different (due to the matter of Mac's different gamma). It's straightforward to set up a monitor profile with a gamma that matches a PC's. How does using VPC, compare to just using Browser Cam? You can try behavior or interaction too. ...and resize browser windows, zoom text etc, to check effectiveness of liquid design. Personally, I find being able to test CSS variations (box model hacks, for instance) in real time, in a real browser environment, an invaluable dvelopment tool, and one that was well worth the expense. Heck, I covered the cost of the software in the time I saved testing the first site I built after I installed it! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Getting an image to slide behind another, not drop below
On 12 Aug 2005, at 5:17 AM, Richard Lake wrote: if I could somehow get the right hand image slide to behind the left hand image instead of drop beneath it then I can support widths of less than 770 without the header breaking. Is there a way of doing this? Richard, check out my site; I do just this in my header (well, reversed LR, but you'll get the idea). Help yourself... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash 100% wide layout issues - resorting to javascript - eek!
Roger that. I gave up after Hi all'. Plain text, please, people?! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ On 9 Aug 2005, at 8:05 PM, Rick Faaberg wrote: On 8/9/05 3:00 AM Brendan Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: I've come crawling back with some issues. I never seem to be much help to anyone else - I hope someone can help me here. Grey tiny text. del msg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] bi-lingual page?
On 10 Aug 2005, at 8:55 AM, Barry Beattie wrote: hi all this is the first time I've done anything like this but I'm wondering what it takes to display two languages (and therefore two charsets) on the same page? - English and German the content will be a side-by-side translation of each language thanx barry.b Barry, search the archive for this list - there was this exact question a month or two ago, and answers on how to use inline charsets for each language - I think what you need is there. HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Message size (was: Site Check: Broadleaf)
On 25 Jul 2005, at 5:08 PM, Edward Clarke wrote: Yes – I think 120kb is big (not huge though). If there is a way to make it smaller, feel free to suggest and I’ll implement. As an aside, please spare a thought for those of us on this list stuck on 56k lines? The messages in this thread are now approaching 50K - and growing. Please - trim replies, and use plain text! Thx - N __ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sliding Panels
On 15 Jul 2005, at 4:34 AM, Chris Kennon wrote: Has anyone a sliding panel solution, such as this(http://www.siteexperts.com/tips/techniques), that is cross-browser and standards compliant ? Your sample: Directory Listing Denied. This Virtual Directory does not allow contents to be listed. But try Doug Bowman's Sliding Doors: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors/ and http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors2/ N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] are underscores a problem
Drake, Ted C. wrote: But then I thought I should check to see if there would be any problems using an underscore in an id or class. Is it one of the legal characters? Don't know about 'legal', but I have had problems with certain browsers in the past ignoring css rules applied to classes and/or ids with underscores in their names. Early version/s of Safari come to mind; there may be others - and the issue may have been fixed in later releases. If I sound vague, it's because I fixed the problem by never again using underscores in id/class names, so I haven't tested for it lately... HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE's doing it again
On 5 Jul 2005, at 2:15 AM, Wayne Godfrey wrote: My problem is in the header and specifically the subnav which, in IE, throws the rest of the layout out of whack. The logo and main nav are fixed in size, but I would like the subnav font to size up or down as the rest of the layout does. Wayne, broken layout, as I see it in IE5.2/Mac, is that subnav links lie on the same line as navbar, immediately to right of Advertise link - and they should be on their own line, below and centered. Yes? If so, I fixed this by adding clear:both to the css declaration for #subnav ul. Display is now the same in IE5 as in Safari, FF. Aagh - just checked the page in IE6/Win. See what you mean - that's quite a mess. Sorry, haven't got *that* much time right now... your css file is just too long to deconstruct quickly. At a glance, though, it looks like IE's broken box model implementation... Hope the 'clear' gets you started, at least. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] trouble with extra width in IE PC
On 29 Jun 2005, at 7:23 AM, Bruce Gilbert wrote:
I am having a devil of a time trying to fix a problem with page not
aligning correctly width wise in IE on the PC.
If you are on IE on the PC and go to
http://www.inspired-evolution.com/Hireme.php you will see what I mean.
The dark blue area to the right of 'hire me' has extra padding or
something wich make it extend on the right beyond the header and top
navigation.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, add
div { border: 1px solid #f00 ; }
to your css file and view the results. You'll see that your
div#breadcrumbs is the culprit - width+padding exceeds the width of the
containing div, and pushes out to the right. IE6 is rendering this such
that the div#main_content is stretching with it.
The fix? Not sure; I've only time to locate the problem. Try adding
padding-left to Breadcrumbs Home link instead of to the enclosing
div; or reduce the width of div#breadcrumbs.
HTH
Nick
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Re: [WSG] Picky, picky, picky
On 25 Jun 2005, at 4:37 PM, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote:
I'm almost embarrased to ask this because it's such a minor detail,
but it's driving me crazy.
First, the link: http://www.x7m.us/_testing/index2.htm
This is a new design I'm just starting to build. If you look at it in
FF/Netscape/Opera it's perfect (the latest versions of those browsers,
anyway). If you look at it in IE6 the headline image (Quality.
Reliability. Reputation.) within the h1 sits about 6 pixels lower than
it should, which of course pushes everything else down as well.
This head is suppose to align with the nav bar you see on the left. In
FF, Netscape, and Opera it does. Perfect. IE, of course, well...
I've tried everything I can think of to correct this, and I've come to
the conclusion that it's something going on with the h1. But I've
tried everything there too, including zeroing the top margin and top
padding on the h1 without result. Besides, all of these things are
already zeroed at the top of the style sheet.
Can someone spot the error of my ways when it comes to the IE
rendering?
Cole
Add this:
div { border: 1px solid #f00 }
to your css and look at the page in IE6, compared to FF. You'll see
that the extra space is actually being generated by your div
id=topEdgeH. Doesn't affect the logo placeholder, because it's
positioned absolutely - but it does push the h1 down.
Fix? You could play with the div id=topEdgeH to try and stop the
extra space (height? line-height?), or simply add
_margin-bottom: 290px;
to it for IE6 - adjust to taste.
Other comments: I realise this is a WIP, but your h1img/h1 format
is completely inaccessible - you don't even have alt text.
I suspect if you run your CSS through the validator, you'll find some
errors - I noticed some instances of 'color: Black', and I don't think
you can use upper case for color names (although I'll happily stand
corrected).
More generally - I really don't think CSS needs to be this complex. I
believe you're creating more potential management headaches for
yourself with your CSS than you need to. Try Googling 'descendent
selectors' and learn how to get rid of that long list of classes. If
they're in your CSS, they're cluttering your markup, somewhere
(presumably on L2 pages). And what if you decide to change the colour
of the elements you have styled by 'class='red' to another colour? Try
to label CSS rules for function, rather than appearance. You'll sleep
better somewhere down the line...
And one design comment: your main headline (the one in question) has a
LH border, imaged, of red. So do your links, on hover. I immediately
presumed that the headline was a link as well...
All the above just my 2c, but HTH -
Nick
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Re: [WSG] Picky, picky, picky
On 25 Jun 2005, at 8:20 PM, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote: The height of the div was already declared (although 10px instead of 9px like it should be - fixed that). Line-height, zero padding hasn't solved the problem. I actually had a similar problem - but only with 2px extra space - on a recent build. I fixed it by using a 12px high gif as the background to a 10px high div... maybe a variation on this technique is worth a try? Yep, that works, but now the CSS won't validate due to the _. Complete validation - previous to deployment - is a must. Well, if 100% hack-free code is a requisite, then maybe you have to live with the extra space. After all, your code is correct - it's IE that's broken. You can't take responsibilty for that... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
