RE: [WSG] Definition list formatting problem in IE

2004-05-27 Thread P.H.Lauke
Have you tried *not* floating the dd?

#apiresults dt
{
width: 8em;
float: left;
clear: left;
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
font-weight: normal;
}

#apiresults dd
{
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}

Should be enough.

Patrick

 -Original Message-
 From: Miles Tillinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 27 May 2004 08:09
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Definition list formatting problem in IE
 
 
 Update!
 
 Added width: 50em; to dd and it stopped it from floating to 
 the right.  But now the dd wraps at a fixed width!  I want it 
 to go 100% but it won't play ball...
 
 Mt.
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Miles Tillinger 
  Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 3:26 PM
  To: Web Standards Group (E-mail)
  Subject: [WSG] Definition list formatting problem in IE
  
  
  Surprise!  A formatting problem in IE...
  
  In IE5+ and Opera, the second dd, which contains the Category 
  links, is jumping up and floating to the right of the first 
  dd with the URL.  It displays fine in Firefox and Netscape 7.
  
  html/css is at http://www.streetdaddy.com/wsg/index2.html
  
  Thanks in advance,
  
  Miles.
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RE: [WSG] Fwd: remove p widows/orphans?

2004-05-27 Thread P.H.Lauke
As widows/orphans in paragraphs depend heavily on
various factors (screen/window and font size, to name a few),
there is no reliable way I'm aware of that could help you here,
I'm afraid.
 
Unrelated to this issue, but interesting nonetheless in the
context of widows/orphans:
 
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/page.html#break-inside
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here)

2004-05-26 Thread P.H.Lauke
Title: Message



Ok, 
the proper general term for this is "Assistive Technology" (AT for 
short).

Text/braille browsers: Lynx and BrailleSurf
Screenreaders and speech browsers: Dolphin Supernova, JAWS, IBM HPR, 
pwWebSpeak, WindowsEyes.
Most 
of these have demo versions you can download. Howerver, I would say that - 
unless you actually know
what 
you're doing when using these browsers - it may do more harm than good to test 
in these (especially
the 
screenreaders), as your testing will not reflect the way a regular user would 
employ them. There are
many 
setting etc (e.g. verbosity settings) that are not ideal in the default. Also, 
many people make the mistake
of 
listening to the entire output of the screenreader, whereas visually impaired 
users will skip through a page at
high 
speed, then often backtrack and slow down as needed (similar to visually 
skim-reading the page).
Without good command of the software, your testing will be inherently 
flawed.

Patrick

Patrick H. 
LaukeWebmaster / University of Salfordhttp://www.salford.ac.uk 


  -Original Message-From: Jamie Mason 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 26 May 2004 
  11:16To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: [WSG] 
  Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here)
  Hi,
  I recently 
  downloaded standalone versions of old versions of the major browsers for 
  testing (and am aware of the imperfections of these) but was curious after 
  reading the post on 'Lynx'...
  
  Does anyone know 
  the names (and ideally urls) to download speech, textbrowsers etc? I 
  know nothing about these and would really love a chance to be able to test my 
  work on these directly. Apologies for not knowing the correct pc term for 
  categorising these.
  
  Thanks in 
  advance,
  
  
  Jamie Mason: Design
  
  


RE: [WSG] Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here)

2004-05-26 Thread P.H.Lauke
 It's a real heads-up to listen to a 
 website the way
 the people using speech software like JAWS hear it.

Or, as I always say: it's a real eye opener ;)
(and before anybody pipes up about how un-PC this is, a colleague
of mine who is visually impaired often uses that phrase as well - for
a bit of shock value)

P
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RE: [WSG] Good DOM tutorial?

2004-05-24 Thread P.H.Lauke
This got me started fairly quickly with my JS DOM experiments
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/tutorials/index.php?tut=0part=24
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] IE. Stopping a table from stretching past the containing div

2004-05-24 Thread P.H.Lauke
Check your table's width, padding and margin. In the worst case, drop the width from
100% to something like 99.5%. I may be wrong, but I think this is another instance of
the box model problem IE has...
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] Tables are bad because...

2004-05-19 Thread P.H.Lauke
 From: Chris Blown 
[...]
 One of the things that I find hard to believe in this whole debate is
 that tables are some how seen as a non standards based approach.

I see that view a lot from people who just discovered the beauty of CSS,
and are going a bit mad in the fight to kill off tables, even when they're
the appropriate markup to use (tabular data).

 Of
 course an argument could be made that tables only exist in 
 the standard
 for legacy reasons, since dropping them would break the whole web.

Well, for tabular data, there is *no* equivalent with the same
semantic and structural properties of a well written, multi-row, multi-column
table. Using divs and spans and stuff to recreate a table look without
tables for tabular data shows a complete misunderstanding of what the
actual purpose of the markup is all about. Yes, you may end up eliminating
every single table, and get a nice glowing warm feeling...but you've effectively
broken any relationship which was defined between the various headings and
the data cells, turning well formatted tabular information into a meaningless
mess...

 does the fact that we use them for other purposes make it wrong? 

Of course not. However, by the same reasoning, it doesn't make it right
to pervert the element's original purpose, the same way that blockquote should
not be perverted to get visual indentations, for instance...it doesn't make
the actual blockquote element wrong, but it shouldn't be used in that way.
It's the perversion of purpose that is wrong.

 The popular response to Andy's article that using the odd 
 table without
 nesting them, is simple practical advice. I don't really think the odd
 table is that detrimental to our efforts of advocating web standards. 

Exactly. As long as the designers/developers are making the decision in 
full knowledge that there might be a better way to handle the situation without
having to resort to tables, but that - due to time constraints, need for
legacy browser support (in a visual/layout sense), work with multiple authors
who may not be up to speed with table-less layout - in this particular situation
using a table will do for now.

Just going through this email, I hope I'm not giving the impression that
I'm in disagreement with you...I see that we're both coming from the same
pragmatic approach. Just filling in the other side of the argument kind of thing...

Patrick

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http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] height problem

2004-05-19 Thread P.H.Lauke
 I'd suggest the best option would be to make it a background image on
 the body tag. Your body tag is going to be your top level containing
 block so it will always stretch to the height of your content.

Maybe being pedantic, but the top level container would be the HTML element,
and backgrounds that are meant to stretch to the entire window/viewport
should be placed as style rules to it. Otherwise, it can happen that, if the
content is too short, the background itself will only appear behind the
content, resulting in even more white space at the bottom.
(although I seem to recall that this problem only appears once you start
sending XHTML strict with a proper XML mime type)

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
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RE: [WSG] height problem

2004-05-19 Thread P.H.Lauke
 From: Mordechai Peller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 I recall reading somewhere that you can style the title element.
 
Interestingly enough, I was playing with that the other night...
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/details.php?id=34
Works best in Firefox / Gecko based browsers at the moment...
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
N.X+inZv+hymjl.f.wq(b(,)azX)i

RE: [WSG] Tables are dead?

2004-05-17 Thread P.H.Lauke
Off topic really, insofar as it doesn't directly solve your problem...but your post
actually made me think the other way around, if you will...how to display a
table, containing tabular data, in a more sexy way.
 
A first attempt, still riddled with bugs, can be seen here
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/details?id=36
 
For what it's worth, I do think that your data would be best served with a table,
but probably more along the lines of the one in my experiment, which of course
fails miserably in IE...
 
At least I hope this sparks some further ideas,
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk http://www.salford.ac.uk 


RE: [WSG] CSS calendar

2004-05-14 Thread P.H.Lauke
I'd argue that calendars are a prime example of tabular data, so I
would strongly advise against attempting any table-less, pure-css solution that
can convey the exact same semantic structure that a properly built table
with correct THs with row and column scope can give...

Anyway, this could help http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/projects/03/

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 -Original Message-
 From: Barbara Dozetos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 14 May 2004 14:11
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] CSS calendar
 
 
 Hello all,
 
 Anyone have examples of calendars created with CSS?  I want 
 to create a 
 calendar for our clients to see when we have training scheduled, etc. 
 and I'm curious to see what others have managed.
 
 Thanks.
 
 Barb
 
 -- 
 Barbara Dozetos   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Physician's Computer Company  Marketing Team
 1 Main St., Ste 7 802-846-5532
 Winooski, VT 05404
 
 
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RE: [WSG] Design Philosophy

2004-05-12 Thread P.H.Lauke

 Can I copy your statement, paste it in Illustrator, make it 
 prettty  bold, and
 post it here at work on the bulletin board? Please?!

You could, but then you'd just show that you haven't understood
the basic premise behind his statement...as you're effectively
trying to force a certain visual presentation onto users, rather
than letting them decide how it should be presented...
Unless it's meant to be an ironic statement...

;)

P
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Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
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RE: [WSG] Design Philosophy

2004-05-12 Thread P.H.Lauke
 Yes, but are there any really hard statistics about what the 
 public is 
 doing.  We know roughly 7% don't use or diable javascript.  But what 
 about disabling styles?

rant type=unfocussed rambling
Why is that relevant? Heck, it's almost like we're going back to the
old how many % of users still run at 800x600...lamers

We know it's 7% ? Do we ? Lies, statistics and lies...it always comes
down to *your* particular audience.

Yes, we have to give up a level of control on how our pages are presented
(if you want pixel perfect, go back to print, or use flash/PDF/etc), but
we gain flexible delivery based on user preferences. We're not forcing our
visual sensibilities onto users that don't want them (e.g. those surfing
with a simple text browsers couldn't give a damn about lines and lines of
markup relating to presentation, or stylesheets). However, that's obviously
*not* the same as saying that we should therefore not care about presentation
at all.
/rant

P
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RE: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad

2004-05-06 Thread P.H.Lauke
 -Original Message-
 From: Andy Budd
[snip]
 Whereas I can see a good reason to use semantic HTML, is there really 
 much point in worrying if your ID's/classes have semantic meaning. 
 Becasue they are user defined, there probably is never going to be a 
 time when that information will be used by another machine.


I haven't read the article in question yet, but this just caught my eye...
A fair point, but in my mind it makes sense to still keep IDs/classes semantic,
mainly for your own sake as a developer, and to make things easier to maintain
in future.
An example: when I first started in this job, I went through all the code
left by my predecessor. She had obviously dabbled with CSS, but obviously not
understood the idea of separation of content and presentation at all, leading to
wonderful things like

a href=blah.html class=redlinkblah/a

with

.redlink { color: red; }

This was all fine and dandy...until the corporate identity guidelines changed and
all links needed to be make green instead of red. As a quick fix, I did

.redlink { color: green; }

Great...so now I had a class redlink making things green. Intuitive...
I ended up simplifying the entire CSS anyway, removing the need for any such classes
in most cases, but if I hadn't, I would have had to go through the entire site and
find/replace redlink with greenlink or something as well...

Same with things like floatLeft...what if you later decide that you don't want
to float it at all? Heck, even col1 does imply that it's one of many columns...what 
if
you later redo the whole CSS and the whole block is on its own, i.e. not a column 
anymore?

As always, every web developer needs to get a clear idea of how far down the 
eradication
of presentational markup and IDs/classnames they want to go. Often I do make hard and 
fast
calls about certain class names, for instance, when I know that a page is only going 
to be
needed for a few months or something. For longer term pages and site sections, I try a 
bit
harder to keep the content as presentation-agnostic as possible, classnames and all...

My GBP0.02 anyway,

Patrick
p.s.: and now I'll go off and read the article, to see if I'm now wildly off topic

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] IE 6 problem

2004-04-29 Thread P.H.Lauke

 Now, can someone tell me why that 
 works?  Doesn't 
 this entirely defeat the purpose of end tags?  I thought spaces were 
 ignored.

Simple answer: IE is a buggy browser. It tries, it's better than previous
versions, but it's still plagued with annoying problems like this one.
Yes, in theory the spaces should have no ill effect there, but IE disagrees...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
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RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

2004-04-26 Thread P.H.Lauke
As far as I'm aware, those are handled by the user agent and
outside of the remit of CSS, if you will...
Personally, it would strike me as being an interference with
the users' expected behaviour if you changed that...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 -Original Message-
 From: Barbara Dozetos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 26 April 2004 14:47
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] print headers/footers
 
 
 Hi all --
 
 Me again, working on a print style sheet.  Is there some way 
 to control 
 the headers and footers that are automatically added to a 
 page printed 
 from a browser?  Can I add something to the line where the 
 page numbers are?
 
 Barb
 
 -- 
 Barbara Dozetos   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Physician's Computer Company  Marketing Team
 1 Main St., Ste 7 802-846-5532
 Winooski, VT 05404
 
 
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RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

2004-04-26 Thread P.H.Lauke
In this particular case though, I'm assuming the styling that Barbara is after is only 
an extra feature, some eye candy, and that the printouts still make sense on 
browsers that don't support print styles...so, as well meant as the warning was, let's 
not lose sight of the real issues.

If I say our site is designed to look nice in browsers that support 
standards-compliant code, for instance, I'm not discriminating against users of 
old/alternate browsers as long as it degrades gracefully and still makes sense without 
the styles...

Of course, if Barbara was hoping to put essential information in purely CSS generated 
headers/footers, which would not appear in browsers which don't support print styles, 
then yes, your point is valid...

P

 -Original Message-
 From: Robert O'Neill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 26 April 2004 15:26
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] print headers/footers
 
 
 Just a quick note to all UK designers out there (can't speak for other countries), 
 if you design with 'most of our
 visitors' in mind be afraid, very afraid. A printed page with headers and footers 
 stating Disabilities
  Discrimination Act 1995 could be heading your way soon. 
 
 Unless your designing an Intranet or a network site that is not available to the 
 public, design your site with 
 everybody in mind, regardless of what your user reports tell you. 
 
 One of the main reasons for standards is accessibility to all.
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RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

2004-04-26 Thread P.H.Lauke
Actually, by default most browsers (nowadays anyway) seem to
leave out background images (and colours...and borders...etc) on printouts;
this needs to be explicitly *enabled*.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 -Original Message-
 From: Bert Doorn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 26 April 2004 16:17
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [WSG] print headers/footers
 
 
 G'day
 
 A graphical page background should repeat on each page when 
 printed (unless
 the user has turned printing of images and backgrounds off), 
 so perhaps put
 the logo in as a background (for the print style sheet) and 
 add appropriate
 padding to the page.
 
 Regards
 -- 
 Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
 www.betterwebdesign.com.au
 Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Barbara Dozetos
 Sent: Monday, 26 April 2004 10:18 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] print headers/footers
 
 
 I've done that with a header for the print version only, but 
 because we 
 can't reliably control page breaks, I'm lost on how to make sure our 
 logo shows up on each printed page.  All is fine if it prints out to 
 only one page, or even two, because I can use both a header and a 
 footer, but the pages in between are left without the logo.
 
 
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RE: [Maybe Spam] RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

2004-04-26 Thread P.H.Lauke
However, if it comes to court, the case will - in my mind anyway - have to be made 
about specific features that are or aren't discriminating, and not (just) general 
principles. As I said - and I don't think we're disagreeing here, just want to spell 
it out - you *can* design for the majority, as long as you ensure that your design 
degrades gracefully and meaningfully for the minorities. Otherwise, you just end up 
design to the lowest of the lowest common denominators, and we may as well just do 
unstyled html 2.0 or something.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 Original Message-
 From: Robert O'Neill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 26 April 2004 16:16
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [Maybe Spam] RE: [WSG] print headers/footers


 It was not Barbara's features I was highlighting (please don't take that the wrong 
 way), just the fact that 
 generally designing a web site for a majority, inherently means you are 
 discriminating against a minority.
 
 Minorities rule in a court of law.
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RE: [WSG] print headers/footers

2004-04-26 Thread P.H.Lauke
 From: Barbara Dozetos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[snip]
 but 
 because we 
 can't reliably control page breaks,

Page-break-after should be supported since IE4.0 (not tested
it though) http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html#page-break-props

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] A discussion leads to an idea - Dynamic CSS!

2004-04-23 Thread P.H.Lauke
 Has anyone ever toyed with this idea before and if so what were the
 results???

I'm amazed how people seem to suddenly get this A-HA! moment. In the last
few months I've read various forum discussions, blog entries and
articles about wouldn't it be great to create your CSS via PHP/ASP/etc?

I did something like this about 4 years ago. It worked pretty fine, but
the main problem is that you risk putting extra strain on the server, as
the dynamic stylesheet needs to be created at every single request, and
can't be cached on the user's machine. So any bandwidth-saving benefits
that the separation of content and presentation might have go up in smoke.
You can limit the damage slightly by having a main, static stylesheet that
contains the bulk of styling and can be cached, and a second minimal one
for the few dynamic properties you want to have. At least this way only
the small one needs to be generated and sent to the browser.

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
External Relations Division 
Faraday House 
University of Salford 
Greater Manchester 
M5 4WT 

Tel: +44 (0) 161 295 4779

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RE: [WSG] style sheet for print

2004-04-23 Thread P.H.Lauke
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/articles/webrev/21.html 
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RE: [WSG] Valid Flash...

2004-04-13 Thread P.H.Lauke
Could anybody confirm if this new method solves the non-streaming problem
of the Flash Satay method ? http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay

Cheers,

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 -Original Message-
 From: Chris Bentley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 13 April 2004 10:07
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] Valid Flash...
 
 
 The imitable Ian Hickson has some valid HTML to embed 
 Macromedia Flash 
 files using only the OBJECT tag...
 
 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2004Apr/0071.html
 
 Cheers,
 chris.
 
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RE: [WSG] Impressive CSS Example

2004-04-03 Thread P.H.Lauke
I said it to a few colleagues at the time, and I still hold the same opinion now: it's 
cute, for sure, but here we are, talking about semantic, structurally sound markup, 
and the division between presentation and content...and then something like this comes 
along which is perverting markup (albeit with clean enough divs) for presentational 
purposes. This is about as web standards minded as ASCII art, in my view...
 
Patrick

-Original Message- 
From: Darian Cabot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sat 03/04/2004 13:09 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] Impressive CSS Example



The power of CSS!! hehehe (This dude has way too much time) (_) I didn't
check it's validity :P

Check it out...
http://www.designdetector.com/tips/3DBorderDemo2.html

Darian Cabot
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Cabot Consultants Pty Ltd
Software Engineer / Website Design
http://www.cabotconsultants.com.au
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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winmail.dat

RE: [WSG] Calling for some assistance...

2004-04-01 Thread P.H.Lauke
You just need to add extra padding to the relevant bits, if I'm not mistaken...

#navigation
{
clear: both;
text-align: left;
padding: 15px;
padding-bottom: 4px; /* changed */
}

#navigation a
{
text-decoration: none;
color: #000;
border: 1px solid #000;
border-bottom: 0px;
padding-bottom: 5px; /* changed */
padding-top: 5px;
padding-left: 10px;
padding-right: 10px;
background-color: #DDF;
}

#navigation a.current
{
background-color: #CCF;
padding-bottom: 6px; /* changed */
font-weight: bold;
}

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
-Original Message-
From: Chris Stratford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01 April 2004 15:13
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Calling for some assistance...


Hey guys,

sorry but im having a few troubles with my tabbed layout.
I have coded it all myself, and i think it looks great.
(Russ, took your advice and its a list now too, so it degrades well!)

Now - im just having a problem with the text, being a little too low, its nearly 
sitting on the bottom border:
www.neester.com/tdir

as you will see its very close, i just want, maye a 4 pixel gap between the text, and 
the box... but without seperatinng them, and i have tried so much, and it just keeps 
seperating the tabs and the box...

any help would be appreciated.

Reply OFF LIST, if you are simply sending me advice, and the information isnt really 
relevant to the list etc...
you get my drift - thanks heaps fellas!

-- 
Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://www.neester.com
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RE: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)

2004-03-31 Thread P.H.Lauke
 From: Leo J. O'Campo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[...]
 A good point... but if someone elects to turn off javascript they do it
 at their own disadvantage.

*cough* accessibility *cough*

Also don't forget that in some instances the specific setup/capabilities of machines 
is not up to the individual users (e.g. large corporates with draconian IT departments)

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
University of Salford
www.salford.ac.uk

winmail.dat

[WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)

2004-03-30 Thread P.H.Lauke
What you describe can only be achieved with javascript, if you want to
avoid server calls and do it all in a single document...the page needs to
keep track of which link has been pressed, for instance...something that
CSS is not meant for...
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
University of Salford 
www.salford.ac.uk
winmail.dat

RE: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)

2004-03-30 Thread P.H.Lauke
I beg to differ. If you re-read the thread starter, you'll see that the question was 
about clicking a link, and making one thing visible, clicking another, and another 
one becomes visible. You can't toggle things on/off via clicks, and then let the user 
move out of the element to do something on the rest of the page. It's true you can use 
:hover/:focus, but that doesn't solve the original problem as far as I understood it.
 
P

-Original Message- 
From: Leo J. O'Campo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wed 31/03/2004 02:18 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do 
some things)



Patrick

It can be done in CSS by toggling the display visibility with the
a:hover and positioning.

Leo

On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 04:41  PM, P.H.Lauke wrote:

 What you describe can only be achieved with javascript, if you want to
 avoid server calls and do it all in a single document...the page needs
 to
 keep track of which link has been pressed, for instance...something
 that
 CSS is not meant for...

 Patrick
 
 Patrick H. Lauke
 Webmaster
 University of Salford
 www.salford.ac.uk
 winmail.dat

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N.X+inZv+hymjl.f.wq(b(,)azX)i

RE: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)

2004-03-30 Thread P.H.Lauke
 And seeing most people use IE, you might as well use javascript.

Whether or not people use IE has nothing to do with whether or not they have 
javascript enabled or not. 
Available, yes...but not necessarily enabled.
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
University of Salford 
www.salford.ac.uk http://www.salford.ac.uk 
winmail.dat

RE: [WSG] What tha!?

2004-03-29 Thread P.H.Lauke
Your server is erroneously sending the CSS as text/html, which is the wrong MIME type 
as it should be text/css.
 
Check your server config.
 
p.s.: apologies if this formats wrong...outlook web client is buggy
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster
External Relations Division 
Faraday House 
University of Salford 
Greater Manchester 
M5 4WT 

Tel: +44 (0) 161 295 4779

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
webteam: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


-Original Message- 
From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tue 30/03/2004 00:51 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] What tha!?


I just checked my site www.cinema4duser.com in Mozilla and it wasn't applying 
CSS. what the A#%^$* have I done?? 

Thanks 
Peter 


Universal Head  
Design That Works. 

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore 
NSW 2048 Australia 
T (+612) 9517 1466 
F (+612) 9565 4747 
E [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
W www.universalhead.com 

b*'+-~u
+zmy-jwZ ?ub~gz'-x-^+-mx!zZ

RE: [WSG] tab navigation in CSS

2004-03-23 Thread P.H.Lauke
The classics:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors/ 
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors/ 

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors2/

Hope this helps,
 
Patrick

-Original Message- 
From: Barbara Dozetos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tue 23/03/2004 19:38 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] tab navigation in CSS



Hello,

I'm wondering if anyone on this list could direct me to an example of a
good tab navigation bar done in CSS.  I want to create something similar
to the navigation on Amazon.com or apple.com -- in CSS, of course.

Thanks!

Barb

--
Barbara Dozetos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Physician's Computer CompanyMarketing Team
1 Main St., Ste 7   802-846-5532
Winooski, VT 05404


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winmail.dat

RE: [WSG] Help us redesign the WSG site

2004-03-22 Thread P.H.Lauke
I'd second that...I'll get my Door to my garden prepped for conversion :)
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=041%2F041%2Ecss

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 -Original Message-
 From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 22 March 2004 11:19
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Help us redesign the WSG site
 
 
 How about doing a Zen Garden type thing and allow people to skin the 
 WSG site.
 
 Just a thought.
 
 
 Andy Budd
 
 http://www.message.uk.com/
 
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RE: [WSG] A rave about h1's

2004-03-18 Thread P.H.Lauke
 From: Jeremy Flint [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I do believe that he said officially, not really speaking 
 for himself,
 but for the CSS community that supported that method as a 
 whole. 

rant
Well...I'm part of the CSS community, and I was not consulted
on this...so how presumptuous of him to officially deprecate
it...

I hereby officially deprecate the use of tables for layout,
not really speaking for myself, but for the whole UK academic
webmaster community that supported that method as a whole...
so you see, my statement carries just about as much weight as
his...
/rant

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

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RE: [WSG] transitional, accessible popups?

2004-03-18 Thread P.H.Lauke
Change 

onclick=window.open('index.cfm?id=23',

to

onclick=window.open(this.href,

This way, if you change your link's href,
you don't have to remember to change it in the 
javascript as well.

Also...while we're on sitepoint, you could
just look at Ian Lloyd's perfect pop-up
article http://www.sitepoint.com/article/perfect-pop-up

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] Only IE or Actual CSS Rule

2004-03-17 Thread P.H.Lauke
 From: russ weakley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[snip]
 Did I cover myself  :)

Yup, your behind is safe for now ;)

P 
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RE: [WSG] Superscript Text

2004-03-15 Thread P.H.Lauke
The purist's answer would of course be to use MathML
(and to heck with missing native support in IE) to mark it
up properly from a semantic point of view... ;-)
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk http://www.salford.ac.uk 
 
b*'+-~u
+

RE: [WSG] Overcoming Rejections

2004-03-13 Thread P.H.Lauke
rejections or reservations ? If it's the latter, then any of the various
Making a business case for accessibility type articles, extolling the benefits
of CSS, plus a reminder that the majority of today's browsers can cope with CSS
layouts just fine (except, of course, the boss' wife's Netscape 4.7, and she is often
the benchmark).
If it's outright rejection...remember that the boss/client is always right. You
can't force good things onto them, and in many cases - depending on the audience -
a nice hybrid/transitional layout is just fine - and, provided it's valid xhtml, can 
still
be mechanically un-tabled at a later date.
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk http://www.salford.ac.uk 

-Original Message- 
From: Jaime Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sat 13/03/2004 23:16 
To: WSG - CSS List 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] Overcoming Rejections




What will be the most appropriate way to overcome rejections from clients or
bosses when it comes to implementation of site with CSS instead of  tables.

Rejection such as browser compatibility saying that no worries about that
when using tables for layout even when explanations have been given.


With Regards
Jaime Wong
~~
SODesires Design Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~


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yr,_mjl.

RE: [WSG] Minor gripe

2004-03-12 Thread P.H.Lauke

Care to elaborate as to why ?
I usually wrap long-ish URLs in opening and closing brackets,
as that guarantees that they'll still be clickable even if
the line they're on is wrapped...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 -Original Message-
 From: LC 55 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 12 March 2004 12:42
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] Minor gripe
 
 
 
 Hi everyone... a little OT (may be) A short time ago Peter 
 Firmonger wrote to say could anyone who uses an Out of 
 office auto email, to please desist.
 So here is my tuppence worth.
 
 When someone requires us all to view a link...can they please 
 refrain from using the '' at the end of the url. As in: 
 
 http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
 
 Please take the bracket of the url and simply use: 
 
 http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
 
 Now my little rant is over...please, have a good weekend everyone.
 
 Regards, JG
 
 _
 Why Pay $35 for a .COM, .NET or .ORG Web Address? iDotz.Net 
 offers Cool Domains @ Great Prices! Starting @ $8.75 Go: 
 http://www.idotz.net
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RE: [WSG] Definition list wish

2004-03-11 Thread P.H.Lauke

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what semantic meaning the example
tries to convey in the first place ?

A list of terms, which can have one or more descriptions ?

And how, in that case, is the use of UL bad ? Sure, UL is
generic, but it does get semantic meaning from its constituent
list items, in this case definition lists.

Or are we splitting hairs here ?

Moreover...are we not getting too specific with hypothetical
DLI elements and such ? I'm all for having very specific
tags when it comes to *storing* data (in XML, then you can write
your own super-specific, semantically charged tags DTD/Schema),
but is it really a good idea to clutter XHTML (which still is
primarily a way of marking up content for the web) to make
it fit specific semantic requirements ?

Patrick

 -Original Message-
 From: Lea de Groot 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 11 March 2004 10:38
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Definition list wish
 
 
 
 On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:20:35 -, P.H.Lauke wrote:
  What's wrong with
  
  ul
  li
  dl
  dtAlbatross/dt
  ddA sea bird/dd
  ddA tasty snack at the movies/dd
  /dl
  /li
  li
  dl
  dtSwallow/dt
  ddCoconut delivery system/dd
  /dl
  /li
  /ul
 
 Once again the two elements have been separated into two different 
 lists, removing semantic information.
 Bad, bad thing ;)
 
 Lea
 -- 
 Lea de Groot
 Elysian Systems
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RE: [WSG] Lists weird br / requirement

2004-03-10 Thread P.H.Lauke
*visually* you'd have a table...but what about the structure
underneath the shiny facade ?
 
Patrick

-Original Message- 
From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wed 10/03/2004 23:57 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [WSG] Lists  weird br / requirement




I believe Calendars would be a great use of floats, just set a height
and width, float left limit the row float to seven days and you have a
cascading day based calendar.

Cheers
James

Jaime Wong wrote:

Just a quick question Russ to make sure I understand better.

Calendars and events (with dates and venue) or even for e.g. certain
competition results (with points) would be more suitable to be done with
tables rather than CSS right?


With Regards
Jaime Wong

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winmail.dat

RE: [WSG] Whats going on

2004-03-09 Thread P.H.Lauke



Stab 
in the dark time: could it be that for some reason today the content of that 
site was not valid xhtml, and some browsers started behaving funny because of 
that and not applying styles the way they should ? Or are you calling multiple 
stylesheets, and the sheet with all the positioning was not being served quickly 
enough by the server (did it work again on refresh atthe time 
?)

We may 
need some more info to make a correct diagnosis...otherwise, put it down to sh*t 
happens..."the inter-web was having a bad day" type thing...

Patrick

Patrick H. 
LaukeWebmaster / University of Salfordhttp://www.salford.ac.uk 


  -Original Message-From: Jackie Reid 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 09 March 2004 
  11:07To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Whats 
  going on
  Hi you lot
  
  Can someone please explain this to 
  me...
  
  I have had a site up and running for a couple of 
  months and doing its thing just fine. Now today out of nowhere it suddenly 
  decides that absolute positioning is out and all those sections of the site 
  simply disappeared from view.
  
  After much tooing and frowing I decided to 
  try floating them instead and Voila there are all the bits i couldnt see 
  before. WHY WHY WHY...Why would this have 
  happened. Got me totally beat.
  
  Anyone had any problems like this before and if 
  so what the heck was it.
  
  (must admit that im pretty proud of myself for 
  sorting it but thats not the point really)
  
  
  Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
  Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
  4035
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


RE: [WSG] Lists weird br / requirement

2004-03-09 Thread P.H.Lauke
Frank,
 
your main problem from what I can see is that, as you're floating everything,
you need to use a lot of clear, but as you're still removing things from the
normal flow, you're getting issues with having the container elements, which have
the background colours applied, to show through properly...as there's nothing
in them anymore, with all that floating.
 
Assuming you want to go with the definition list idea, here's something I cooked
up in a few minutes. It might not be perfect, but seems to work ok.
 
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/archives/definition_lists/
 
and the styles at
 
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/archives/definition_lists/style.css
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk http://www.salford.ac.uk/  
 

-Original Message- 
From: Frank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tue 09/03/2004 15:55 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] Lists  weird br / requirement




Hey all,

I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm working on.
I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each record in a
DIV, with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list.

The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate row-colours.  For some
reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working.  It just won't work.
I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet is being laid
out, or if I'm just not doing something properly.

I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
display properly in the DIV, I have to add br clear=all / just before
closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom border of the
DIV.

Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having:

a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating rows should
be visible, but they're not)

b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG

Here's a link to the stylesheet:
a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css


Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you!


Frank Manno
Design Interactive Group
www.di-group.net
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b*'+-~u
+

RE: [WSG] IE7 fixes CSS glitches for IE

2004-03-08 Thread P.H.Lauke

Then again, as Microsoft will be shoving Longhorn down everybody's throat
through OEM sales, having it pre-installed on all new PCs, and probably
bombard the general populace with a full-spectrum advertising/conversion
campaign (not to mention the myriad of applications that, all of a sudden,
will be Longhorn only - as is currently the case for XP with most of the
audio/video editing software that in the past I've been using on my humble
Win2k box), it may still have a positive impact.
Far more worrying is the fact that - I suspect - the main focus of Longhorn
will shift towards XAML/Avalon/Sparkle, and guess which browser/OS will be
the only one supporting that for a while ?

Just thoughts,

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 -Original Message-
 From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 08 March 2004 09:55
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] IE7 fixes CSS glitches for IE
 
 
 
 A small glitch however is that IE7 will not be able as a standalone 
 browser, only integrated in the next release of windows (longhorn?)
 
 so while it sounds nice ... its a furphy in its real life effects
 
 -- 
 Neerav Bhatt
 http://www.bhatt.id.au
 
 Geoff Bowers wrote:
  
  Saw this little gem on Sean Corfields blog just now.. looks 
 like a very 
  interesting project.  I especially like how its been implemented.
  
  http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/
  IE7 invokes a DHTML behavior to load and parse all style 
 sheets into a 
  form that Explorer can understand. You can then use most 
 CSS2 selectors 
  without having to resort to CSS hacks.
  
  -- geoff
  http://www.daemon.com.au/
  
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RE: [WSG] Style Switcher and IE

2004-03-08 Thread P.H.Lauke

Alternatively...is IE set to such a high security level that it's not
accepting cookies at all, or not accepting cookies of sites without a
P3P certificate ? Worth checking as well, while you're at it...
http://www.google.com/search?q=IE+P3P+cookies

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 -Original Message-
 From: Jaime Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 08 March 2004 15:08
 To: WSG - CSS List
 Subject: [WSG] Style Switcher and IE
 
 
 
 Hi I am not sure if it is appropriate to seek help for some javascript
 issues with styleswitcher here but I hope someone will be able to help
 because I have no idea what went wrong all of a sudden.
  
 I am using the style switcher at http://www.alistapart
 com/articles/alternate/ on my site and all of a sudden IE 
 seems to have a
 problem with it (used to work and no changes has been done 
 with it). It will
 not remember the selected style and upon every reload, it 
 will switch back
 to the default style.
  
 But when working with dreamweaver, and by using the preview 
 option, the
 style registers in IE. It only doesn't work when the site goes live.
  
 All other browsers are working fine.
  
 This is what I have in head
  
 link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=screen href=.
 /scripts/css/style_glass/glassStyle.css /
 link rel=alternate stylesheet type=text/css media=screen title=
 simple href=../scripts/css/style_simple/simpleStyle.css /
  
 and in the body..
  
 lia href=# title=Switch to Glass Style 
 onclick=setActiveStyleSheet('
 , 1);return false; onmouseover=MM_swapImage('styles','','.
 /images/global/styles/tt_select.gif',1) 
 onmouseout=MM_swapImgRestore()
 img src=../images/global/styles/style01_glass.gif 
 alt=Switch to Glass
 Style width=22 height=21 //a/li
  
 The script for switcher from above:
 onclick=setActiveStyleSheet('', 1);return false;
  
 lia href=# title=Switch to Simple Style 
 onclick=setActiveStyleSheet(
 simple', 1);return false; onmouseover=MM_swapImage('styles','','.
 /images/global/styles/tt_select.gif',1) 
 onmouseout=MM_swapImgRestore()
 img src=../images/global/styles/style02_simple.gif 
 alt=Switch to Simple
 Style width=20 height=21 //a/li
  
 The script for switcher from above:
 onclick=setActiveStyleSheet('simple', 1);return false;
  
  
 The javascript is what I downloaded from http://www.alistapart
 com/articles/alternate/
 
 
 
  
 With Regards
 Jaime Wong
 ~~
 SODesires Design Team
 http://www.sodesires.com
 ~~
  
 
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