Re: [WSG] which tag to use for link to reference?

2012-07-02 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 02/07/2012 04:35, Teddy Knoy wrote:

These e-mails aren't intended for me, but I keep on receiving them.
Ted Knoy


Dear Ted, welcome to the wonderful world of email mailing lists. You 
must have signed yourself up at some point?



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Re: [WSG] which tag to use for link to reference?

2012-07-02 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 02/07/2012 13:39, Dan Freeman wrote:

The sup tag is definitely not presentational.  It’s good for the
browser to know what is superscripted.  Think about math and powers.

The browser will interpret these two things totally differently:

10^4

10sup4/sup (correct)

10span4/span (browser will think it’s 104 instead of 10^4 )



Arguably the semantics of mathematics are best conveyed with something 
like MathML, not HTML. sup really just means it's superscript - make 
it look tinier, and up a bit. Compare the semantics of


10sup4/sup vs 1supst/sup vs Msuplle/sup

clearly, not related at all, apart from the fact that they visually look 
the same in print. The meaning (it's a mathematical exponent vs an 
ordinal indicator vs an abbreviation for Mademoiselle) changes depending 
on context, so the semantics are certainly far from cut and dry.


IMHO of course,

P
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Re: [WSG] HTML5 input type=date / and you

2012-07-01 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 02/07/2012 01:55, James Ducker wrote:


element.valueAsDate

This property is designed to solve your locale woes, and it is also an
easy way to feature-detect a browser's native support for the date input
type. I haven't gone through all current browsers yet, so if you do use
this method, make sure to check that none of your browsers support the
property without implementing a date picker.

.valueAsDate, as you might have guessed, returns the input's value as a
Date object. Here's a super-simple feature detect:

if ( !myElement.valueAsDate ) {
// Implement my JavaScript datepicker
}


You can also simply test if the type of your input is reported as 
date. Older browsers that don't implement the new HTML5 types simply 
fall back to changing them - in the DOM itself - to type=text


if (!myElement.type === text) {
// fallback
}

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Re: [WSG] What is the best element?

2012-06-01 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 01/06/2012 21:00, Tom Livingston wrote:

a definition



What's most semantic and appropriate?


a definition list?

P
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Re: [WSG] minimal use of modernizr?

2012-05-12 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 12/05/2012 09:54, coder wrote:

I have a very simple html5 contact form which I'd like to keep that way.
However, the 'pattern' attribute isn't recognised by IE and I feel that
it surely must be possible to just use a bit of modernizr to make it
work. Example is:

label for=email accesskey=EEmail/label
input name=email id=email placeholder=Enter your Email Address
pattern=^[A-Za-z0-9](([_\.\-]?[a-zA-Z0-9]+)*)@([A-Za-z0-9]+)(([\.\-]?[a-zA-Z0-9]+)*)\.([A-Za-z]{2,})$
required type=email

I'm not a javascript person and I wonder if it is possible to just use a
bit of extracted code from jquery/modernizr without having to link to
the whole script, much of which is surplus code - i.e., just put a small
amount of script right in the page.


Modernizr doesn't polyfill/patch missing functionality (with the 
exception of a few minor things like making the new HTML5 semantic 
elements work in IE, for instance). Modernizr is primarily concerned 
with detecting support for features.


To patch in the functionality you're after, you'd need to conditionally 
load a full-on JS client-side form validation plugin/solution (and of 
course, you're still validating on the server as well, right?). 
Basically (in pseudocode), on load you want to:


- check via modernizr if native client-side form validation is available 
and working

- if it isn't, add a script that loads the JS-based form validation

Incidentally, if you're already specifying type=email, why are you also 
adding a pattern attribute? type=email is, effectively, a pre-baked 
regular expression/pattern in the browser, so you shouldn't need the 
extra pattern...


P
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Re: [WSG] minimal use of modernizr?

2012-05-12 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
...and just to test if a browser has support for things like the email 
type for inputs, the bare-bones test would be to check programmatically 
if the type of that particular input is reported as email. Older 
browsers default any type attribute they don't know back to text. So 
something like


input type=email id=email ...

if (document.getElementById('email').type == 'text') {
  // doesn't support type=email ... load JS-based validation script
}

P
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Re: [WSG] minimal use of modernizr?

2012-05-12 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 12/05/2012 10:31, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:

On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 9:54 AM, coderco...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk  wrote:


   input name=email id=email placeholder=Enter your Email
Address
pattern=^[A-Za-z0-9](([_\.\-]?[a-zA-Z0-9]+)*)@([A-Za-z0-9]+)(([\.\-]?[a-zA-Z0-9]+)*)\.([A-Za-z]{2,})$
required type=email


Note that's not a safe regex to validate email addresses. It will
exclude legitimate addresses like john.doe+la...@gmail.com.

I suggest just keeping it simple and checking for ^.*@.*$.


Or not using pattern/regexp at all and relying on the fact that browsers 
that support type=email should automagically do internal validation of 
the input against their baked-in pattern.


P
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility changer

2012-04-24 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 25/04/2012 01:15, James wrote:

We may have to think realtime accessibility standards?

James.


[big image with text and animated globe]

Not to have a go, but: speaking of accessibility, your signature (a big 
image, lots of textual information in the graphic, animation, and no alt 
text), is...sub-optimal in that respect.


P
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Re: [WSG] Semantic or no?

2012-03-02 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Run it through a validator and find out...

(spoilers: yes)

On 02/03/2012 16:39, Tom Livingston wrote:

Hello Listers,

Quick question (maybe).

I've seen a few sliders that use unordered lists as their base
structure, using LI's as each 'slide', and allow devs to put
anything (HTML structures, as opposed to just an image) into the LI's.

Is putting block elements into an LI really semantically ok/allowed?

TIA





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Re: [WSG] Combining media stylesheets - best practice

2012-03-01 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 02/03/2012 00:40, Ben Zeller wrote:

Hi everyone,
On a recent project we've decided to combine our @print media styles at the 
bottom of our main stylesheet. eg.
@media print { /* Print styles */}

In our global template, the stylesheet is imported with the media attribute 
screen. Using this attribute, the print styles are ignored.
link rel=stylesheet href=css/style.css media=screen


Logically. You're saying that those styles only apply to the screen 
media type. The fact that you then have definition for styles for print 
in there is irrelevant, as the browser won't look at those styles in the 
first place as you specifically said it's only for screen.



The following markup options offer a solution to the problem:

1.  link rel=stylesheet href=css/style.css
2.  link rel=stylesheet href=css/style.css media=all

I guess the question I have is whether there are any caveats with either 
method, and if there is a best practice solution?
The doc type is XHTML 1.0 Transitional if this is relevant.


No adverse effect using 1 (which, without media attribute, implicitly 
means all) or 2. Of course, the styles then also take effect on, say, 
projection media type etc, but apart from Opera when in full-screen 
mode, I don't think any other browser uses it (and you probably DO want 
your styles to also apply there).


P
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Re: [WSG] Read Speaker?

2012-02-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 21/02/2012 19:39, Steve Green wrote:

The merits of ReadSpeaker (and BrowseAloud, which is very similar) have
been discussed at great length in the accessibility community for the
best part of a decade.


Very strangely, just today there's been a thread about ReadSpeaker over 
on W3C WAI IG list 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2012JanMar/0143.html


Coincidence? Or have RS launched some kind of marketing campaign?

P
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Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 30/12/2011 17:32, coder wrote:

You just aren't getting this, are you Rob. We're talking about what you
do if you don't know there are options.


Again, let me turn this discussion around once more. Explain to us WHY 
you feel that it's important that your site open links in new tabs, 
rather than putting the onus on those who advocate leaving it the hell 
alone and just letting a link be a link (as that's what users will be 
used to - if they don't know they can right/middle/shift-click to open a 
new window, they'll experience the vast majority of the web in a single 
window...and that's how they know it/like it) to explain why you 
SHOULDN'T pop up a new tab/window.


Or, then again...can we just let this discussion die? We've been 
circling around the same pros and cons...and as it's a polarising issue 
and nobody from one camp is likely to convince somebody firmly in the 
other camp, it's fairly pointless beyond this.


P
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Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 29/12/2011 18:02, coder wrote:

I don't say having windows all over the place is something great per se,
but I do say that for most applications on a PC it is a emvery/em
tidy and very convenient way of handling masses of data which is related
(like my analogy of a web page in Dreamweaver or similar - I have my
markup in one window, my CSS in another, my file list in another frame
and my output in a browser etc etc etc.) Similarly, with mail, I
sometimes want to compare different mails so I need two (or more)open in
their own windows, whilst my 'list' of mails is displayed in another
frame as indeed are my contacts. And so it goes on. So, to move to your
specific point, it is needed sometimes to have a separate window - as a
pdf, for example. In these cases, the less PC literate amongst us (who
outnumber the literate by a great deal) have to be catered for - I do
this by making sure that if a new window is needed, they know this
because it tells them before they click.


But if I remember correctly, the thread starter asked about opening 
external websites in new windows. And this goes back to the heart of the 
matter: it's not necessarily about masses of data to compare, or 
contextual information that needs to be seen in parallel, or even PDF 
(which, depending on browser settings, may even open directly in Acrobat 
Reader for some users, meaning they're potentially left with a new, yet 
empty, window/tab). It's about the assumption that visitors won't want 
to leave MY website, I want to keep them here...let the external link 
open somewhere else.


P
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Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
What I'm still not getting from this whole discussion is: it seems that 
throughout the thread those of us opposed to launching new windows/tabs 
have had to justify why we're opposed to them.


Can I just turn this around? To those on this discussion so adamant that 
popping up a new window is a good thing...explain WHY! Is it the age-old 
but if I link out of my site, users won't know how to get back to my 
site...I don't want to lose visitors stance?


P
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Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 21/12/2011 12:16, coder wrote:

In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the web
designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a link'. In
my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To
say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, because he/she doesn't
know they've got a choice, and what happens depends upon what the
designer has coded.


A tired argument, but based on the premises that:

- most users don't know they can open links explicitly in a new window/tab
- the vast majority of links out on t'internet are simply that, straight 
links, with no extra target=_blank or similar


the fact that a link takes them away to another site is, as a 
consequence, the expected behaviour that those non-savvy users have. By 
trying to be extra good (here, let me open this in a new window for 
you), designers may arguably be breaking that expectation and confusing 
those users, rather than helping them.


The argument is slightly different for small pop-ups inside web 
applications, but that sort of behaviour doesn't work well on 
mobiles/tablets, if we want to include those in the discussion.


TL;DR just use straight links.

P
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Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote:

Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab
is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click
option right there on your web page.


Ah, but then do you also need explain about tap-and-hold context menus 
on touchscreens? Or about keyboard shortcut equivalents, for all 
browser/OS combinations? And for those who do know, does it not sound 
patronising? It's a difficult balancing act, and I generally take the - 
maybe hardline - attitude that it's not our job to educate users about 
how to use their browsers. As long as our site works for them, we 
shouldn't require them to learn new commands/ways of working (this 
reminds me of my many futile attempts to get 
parents/wife/friends/colleagues to correctly use features in 
software...and then being reminded of http://xkcd.com/763/ )


:)

P
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Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 21/12/2011 19:44, Hassan Schroeder wrote:

On 12/19/11 6:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote:


Muchof my research suggests that the recommended practice is to

  keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances.

Most of the responses to this seem to focus on the evils of opening
a new *window*.

I'm under the impression that Webkit browsers (Chrome, Safari) open
a new *tab* by default, which to me seems fine. It's obvious it's a
different tab, the original page is right next to it, etc.

Firefox has an option to set this behavior; anyone know what any of
the IEs do? (Heh, I don't even know which IE versions support tabs.)

Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply
to opening a new tab?


My main objection is: let the user decide. If they never knew they could 
do it, then that's their expected behaviour - that once they activate a 
link, they're taken to another place. Most of them know about the back 
button functionality. And if they DO know about opening links in new 
windows/tabs, and maybe even have their browser configured especially, 
then they're power users and again let them decide.


Nonetheless, make it clear if a link is going to a completely separate 
site. Don't make it look like any other link within your current site, 
if possible. Or change the wording a la for more information, visit the 
a href=http://...;Blahblah company site/a. - take away the 
surprise from it.


P
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Re: [WSG] Farewell (was : Out of Office)

2011-12-16 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
'tis the season for folks on mailing lists to clutter everybody's inbox 
with discussions over out of office replies cluttering their inbox...


recursion? self-fulfilling prophecy?

In fairness though, picking up on the other topic: Marvin, as much as we 
sympathise with the difficulties you may be experiencing in getting 
inaccessible systems etc installed on your own...that's not quite the 
point of this mailing list. List mums and dads...agree or disagree?


P
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Re: [WSG] w3c mobile validator and html5?

2011-12-12 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 12/12/2011 17:18, Nancy Johnson wrote:

I noticed this validator only checks for xhtml 1.1 basic or mp1.2.  Is
it going to checking again html5?  http://validator.w3.org/mobile/


Not to my knowledge, no. You could argue that it's aimed at older 
generations of phones/browsers.



What about media queries...   Is the mobile checker suitable for if
you are creating one set of htmls code and  for mulitple devices?


No.

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Re: [WSG] Divs for tabular data

2011-12-05 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Tabular data should be marked up as actual tables. Anything else is a 
perversion of standards. Screenreaders, to take the technical extreme of the 
spectrum, have special controls and functionalities for users to navigate 
tables (moving between rows/columns directly, getting info on associated 
headers, getting a count of rows/cells and where the current focus is) that are 
impossible to replicate with anything other than table markup. So, as much as I 
sympathise with the developers' it's easier take, it won't cut it I'm afraid.

P

--
Patrick H. Lauke


On 5 Dec 2011, at 07:22, David McKinnon david...@mac.com wrote:

 OK, so I'm working on a project in which the developers are laying out 
 tabular data using divs.
 The site is using the 960 CSS grid system so making the 'tables' work just 
 means applying the appropriate class to align each div/table cell to the grid.
 They say this is good because:
 It's fast
 They can manipulate the resulting DOM much more easily than they could with a 
 table
 Developers find it easier to, say, add or remove columns from the tables, 
 without having to edit the code all the way down the table (no wysiwyg 
 editors here!)
 To me this doesn't seem very good because:
 It's not very semantic (although they've used micro data in the class names 
 for some divs)
 It doesn't seem very accessible -- I might be wrong about this, but to me 
 good semantics is foundational to accessibility
 There's a lot of markup -- I know tables aren't exactly light on code, but 
 they seem quite light and efficient in comparison
 It doesn't seem to me like the code will be very easy to maintain for anyone 
 but the developers.
 
 The lead developers assure me that this is good practice for speed and 
 efficiency, but I'm not convinced.
 Nevertheless, I don't want to be advocating tables as best practice if they 
 aren't.
 
 What do you think? Are tables too hard for the real world in large sites or 
 web apps where large amounts of DOM manipulation is required? Or have these 
 guys taken the 'Tables are bad' thing a bit too far?
 
 Kind regards,
 David
  
 
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Re: [WSG] Wrapping text before float drop

2011-11-03 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 03/11/2011 17:52, Stevio wrote:

If I have two floats side by side, both are floated left as follow:

.myfloat{
float:left;
}

and both contain text as follows:

div class=myfloatLonger amount of text. Longer amount of text.
Longer amount of text. Longer amount of text./div
div class=myfloatSmall amount of text./div

Is there any way to prevent the second div from dropping below the first
div when the viewport is narrowed, without specifying widths for either
of the floats?

What I would like is for the text in the first div to wrap before the
second float drops below the first. Is this possible without using widths?


Not tested, but I'd start with a min-width:50% (with caveat that if I 
remember right, IE6 and below doesn't support min/max widths)



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Re: [WSG] Opera Mini fontsize settings

2011-10-13 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
settings  font size (3rd option down)

or am i missing something?

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On 13 Oct 2011, at 13:55, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote:

 I clearly remember OM used to have this feature, but in my recent upgrade, 
 it's gone. Anybody knows about this? This list has Opera Inc employee(s), and 
 I wonder if you are aware of this.
 
 Thanks!
 
 tee
 
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Re: [WSG] HTML5 Elements question

2011-08-17 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 17/08/2011 15:04, Tom Livingston wrote:

Just trying to get a better grip on the proper use of the new
elements. I have a site with a persistent nav of the site on the top
of the page and on a couple pages, a large designed grid with nice
hover effects that mirrors the persistent nav. The persistent nav has
role=navigation and I was thinking the grids should also be the nav
element sans role. Am I tracking this right? Or is the grid not a case
for the nav element? The grids and top nav are site-wide navigation
within large sections of the site, not the ENTIRE site as a whole -
it's based on what group you fall in, like members etc.


If I understand it right, I'd say that yes, nav seems appropriate for 
the grid as well - though keep in mind that there's no ONE TRUE WAY(TM) 
to mark anything up semantically, so opinions may vary ;)


P
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Re: [WSG] Breaking validation using noscript - Is there a solution?

2011-07-15 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Regarding the tapping twice bit: Mobile Safari on iOS has special 
logic built-in to emulate onmouseover / hover events for situations 
where that action triggers a change in the page (DOM change or something 
that gets changed in terms of display:none / visibility:hidden etc).


See the breakdown of the One Finger Events on 
http://developer.apple.com/library/safari/#documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariWebContent/HandlingEvents/HandlingEvents.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40006511-SW1


Worth noting though that other mobile browsers don't currently have that 
particular heuristic (though I know of at least one that's planning to 
add something similar).


P
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Re: [WSG] Google Les Paul tribute

2011-06-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 09/06/2011 12:05, Grant Bailey wrote:

Hello,

Today's Google home page has an interactive guitar in honour of Les
Paul. It makes sounds when you 'strum' the strings.

I was wondering what technologies Google used to create this incredible
element. It does not appear to be Flash ... does anyone know.


View Source...

And yes, it does use flash (rather than the audio element) for the 
actual sound playback...


P
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Re: [WSG] Accessible Modal/Lightbox Code

2011-05-17 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 17/05/2011 17:05, Carl Heaton wrote:

You are mainly looking for CSS3 type things as full accessibility means
no Javascript.


Not really, it just means that there must be an alternative if JS isn't 
available, which usually means loading the image itself at a minimum.


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Re: [WSG] Mobile detection using CSS media queries

2011-05-03 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Also worth adding that mobile browsers generally lie about their width, 
so to get mediaqueries to be effective you need to get them to behave 
nice and report their real viewport dimensions (and, in the case of 
high-dpi devices on android, also need to tell them not to lie again 
with their dpi adjustment).


The Opera article already mentions this, but still worth having a look 
at my recent preso (slide 50 onwards) 
http://www.slideshare.net/redux/mobilefriendly (don't be put off by the 
title slide in russian, the rest is in english ;) )


P
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Re: [WSG] nav or menu?

2011-01-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 09/01/2011 13:32, Jason Grant wrote:

This is a 'too early' post as HTML5 nav nor menu aren't really
supported yet in any major browsers.

So, we are speculating about how browsers might interpret these elements.

You can read the HTML5 spec and see what is says about those tags, but
at the end of the day browser implementation is going to dictate what is
right or wrong.

For now I would strongly suggest not putting either in your code, as you
are simply adding bloat which serves no purpose whatsoever (until
browsers start implementing these tags).

Focus on the code which is going to deliver some value to your UI.


nav doesn't have any new functionality of behaviour...it's simply a 
new structural element to denote navigation in a machine-readable way 
(like header, footer, aside, etc). It's a slightly more specific 
alternative to the generic div. Even once all browsers natively 
support it (giving it default block-level styling, amongst other 
things), they won't do anything different with it afaik. It's safe to 
use (with the usual caveat of IE support for unknown elements like this 
having to be plugged in via html5shim and default display:block styling 
having to be explicitly given).


menu on the other hand is a planned interactive element. it is indeed 
meant for context menus, toolbars, etc, and once supported browsers will 
actually do something new and different with it.


So long story short: between the two, I'd opt for nav. And (if you can 
live with the IE need for scripting) it's safe to use, though you won't 
get any benefit from it as such (other than more explicit semantics 
which *may* be of benefit to tools like screenreaders or search engine 
bots in future). But yes, failing all that, there's nothing wrong with a 
traditional div id=nav or whatever...


P
--
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Re: [WSG] Detecting Mobile user agent - what methods work best?

2011-01-07 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 07/01/2011 04:10, Mike Kear wrote:

I have to convert a client site to enable phone users to use the site
and I was wondering what is the best method to detect the mobile user
agent and switch the css sheet?

As far as I have seen, there are a few ways to do this - which is best?
(or maybe the way to put it is 'least bad')

[A] a link at the top of the normal page, linking to a mobile version of
the page. (yuk)

[B] javascript detection (but there are thousands of mobile devices to
detect. YUK )

[C] Use CSS @media handheld (but many mobile phones don't support the
handheld media type )

[D] server side detection using CGI.User_Agent (but there are so many
user agents to detect)

[E] screen resolution detection (but is that reliable?)


[F] CSS3 Media Queries http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/ - making 
your site adaptive 
http://www.slideshare.net/redux/making-your-site-mobilefriendly-thoughtworks-manchester-geeknights-17112010


P
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Re: [WSG] Touch screens

2010-11-16 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 16/11/2010 09:07, Michael MD wrote:

I don't see how either if these would actually simulate touch screen
behaviour without a way to emulate the actual touch screen.


your mouse emulates your finger. there's no hover, you click the mouse 
to press your finger on the screen, you keep the mouse button pressed 
and move the mouse to emulate moving the finger across the screen.



Multiple mice?


This makes me think you want to emulate multitouch/gestures, which I 
don't think is all that relevant in the case of, say, menus and such on 
pages (but yes, if you want to specifically try doing stuff with new 
touch events on supported devices, you may have to actually get such a 
device as far as I know)


P
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Re: [WSG] best formatting for alt text

2010-11-12 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 13/11/2010 01:23, cat soul wrote:

Right..I noticed this while playing around, and I wondered whether it
represents an opportunity by making sure that it has some desired
formatting, or whether those who rely upon alt information just want
normal, smallish text.


those who rely on alt would roughly fall into two categories: users of 
assistive technology (blind/partially sighted) and those users who 
knowingly turned off image loading. for the first group, visual 
formatting will be irrelevant - just make sure the image is contained in 
the most logical parent block - so if the image was, for instance, a 
heading (not doing any css image replacement, just putting straight 
images in the markup), then obviously the entire image would be wrapped 
in the appropriate heading element. for the latter group, again the alt 
will be usually formatted the same way as text in the same place would 
be, so the previous also applies (e.g. if it's a heading, wrap it as a 
heading). you could, if you wanted to, go beyond that and explicitly 
style text properties on the img element in your css, but i don't think 
there's any real need for it provided that the alt makes sense in context.


P
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Re: [WSG] HTML5 - Marking up forms

2010-11-10 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 10/11/2010 17:08, Eric Taylor wrote:

 From my experience, the best practice, currently, is using Description
lists; however, my concern with this method is the lack of semantic
grouping when using this set of elements.

Another method I have used is using an Unordered list to group each
field inside of a list item. However, this doesn't seem like it makes as
much sense, semantically, as the Description list.

What do you all think, and how do you go about marking up your forms in
HTML5?


HTML5 does not add any new semantics or constructs to mark up the 
structure of forms, it only adds new types, a few features (autofocus 
for instance) and validation functionality.


How you actually structure the lot is still as before (and there are 
still likely heated arguments over which way is good or 
not...personally, I just use paragraphs, as the extra structure of lists 
is just overkill in my opinion)


P
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Re: [WSG] lazyweb://schema.agnostic.URLs

2010-11-10 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 10/11/2010 18:38, Micky Hulse wrote:

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Russ Weakleyr...@maxdesign.com.au  wrote:

Yikes! It all seemed so easy... suspiciously easy!  :)


Haha! Too true!

Back to the drawing board I guess. :D


It really just depends on what you're trying to do though. The bug 
apparently only affects stylesheets, and the whole reason I'm assuming 
you'd want to use the protocol-less syntax is to have shared assets 
between http and https versions that are cached even when moving from 
insecure to secure. If you can live with the tiny overhead of just 
having the stylesheet recalled twice, it's not a huge deal imho (not 
optimal, but not a deal-breaker). If you're holding all the files you 
reference (like css) one the same server anyway, a simple 
/path/to/stylesheet.css path relative to the root of the current 
server will work fine and avoid the double download...so really, the 
only issue (when you'd want to use //foo.com/stylesheet.css) is when 
you want to reference a stylesheet from another domain using the same 
protocol as the one you're currently using...an edge-case, I'd argue?


P


Dang, I am still undecided about weather or not I should adopt this
technique! On one hand, the no-http site was very convicing as to why
one should stop using HTTP... On the other hand, if IE can't get it
right...

Anyway, thanks all for the interesting thread!


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Re: [WSG] CSS rollovers for images?

2010-10-20 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 20/10/2010 10:44, cat soul wrote:

Yes, and while we're on the topic of things that won't work on phones
and iPadsis there anything else we need to know about that also
won't play nice with those two handheld platforms?


A gentle reminder that iDevices are not the only platform that has touch 
interfaces, and that Mobile Safari is not the only browser on devices 
with touch interfaces.


Interestingly enough, the old problems of hover/mouse based interactions 
that we've been preaching against for ages with regards to (keyboard) 
accessibility have now reappeared in terms of touchscreen interfaces, 
where hovering doesn't work (reliably - some devices have weird 
heuristics where a click can be interpreted as a hover in certain 
conditions).


P
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Re: [WSG] HTM5 Semantic markup overly done?

2010-10-01 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 01/10/2010 15:22, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

Hi Tee,


I thought this is suffice but then I am not sure as these HTML5 tags
are still too new for me.

  section id=articles

   article
h2.../h2
p.../p
 /article


   article
h2.../h2
p.../p
 /article

  /section


What about something like this?

ol id=articles
   li
 article
   header
 h1a href=#Article Title/a/h1
   /header
   pLorem ipsum dolor sit amet, .../p
 /article
   /li
   li
 article
   header
 h1a href=#Article Title/a/h1
   /header
   pgiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat
   non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est
   laborum./p
 /article
   /li
/ol


let's not get into list-itis again... ;)

to answer the thread starter: there will probably be no clear single 
answer about what is and isn't too much semantic markup. it will come 
down to your own personal preference, i'd say...whatever you feel 
comfortable with (particularly as currently there's no practical benefit 
of using these new structural constructs - e.g. there's no crawlers 
looking specifically for articles to syndicate etc).


P
--
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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

2010-09-29 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 29/09/2010 09:59, Sam Sherlock wrote:

So ie pre ie9 is still going to be out there; I think that ie9 should be
released as an xp version also

the other browsers all make versions that work for xp and support html5;
though though some things would only work on ie9 (pinning tasks)


let's not get confused here. pinning tasks and all the other stuff that 
MS has been touting recently has nothing to do with HTML5, CSS3, or 
anything else. It's their proprietary meta element additions ... 
http://camendesign.com/blog/stop_this_madness


also, as already mentioned, but worth reiterating because of the 
thread's subject line: H.264 is merely a video codec. there are other 
codecs out there in use (ogg theora and webm). it's the fundamental 
behind it - the video element in HTML5 and its native support in 
browsers - that is the technology to be discussed (and whether or not 
that can supplant flash in certain generic use cases), not the 
(royalty/patent-encumbered) h.264 codec.


P
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Re: [WSG] CSS support of HTML5 tags not ready yet?

2010-09-28 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 28/09/2010 07:12, David Dorward wrote:

On 27 Sep 2010, at 22:46, tee wrote:

Quote Hugo, It will create those elements for IE6-8 (and older browsers with lack 
of HTML5 support) in DOM. I suppose DOM will still work in older IEs when CSS is 
off yes?



Yes


To clarify though: the DOM will be messed up in IE without the JS 
training wheels (document.createElement('header') etc) telling it that 
there's these new elements. For instance, if I recall correctly, having 
something like


headerblah/header

will make IE think that there are a header element and a /header 
element, so the DOM will look something like


header
textnode
/header

where the three are siblings, rather than

header
-- textnode

where textnode is child of the header node

P
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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 19/08/2010 10:13, David Storey wrote:

So the section or article elements could be taken out of context and
displayed elsewhere but retain their h1 headings.


You could, but I still use the h1 to h2 inside the sections because no
browser uses the sectioning algorithm for thing like styling.


Also worth pointing out that, to my knowledge, no AT/screen reader 
currently supports it either, so this may cause some issues for these 
users at present.


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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 19/08/2010 11:51, Rob Crowther wrote:

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Also worth pointing out that, to my knowledge, no AT/screen reader
currently supports it either, so this may cause some issues for these
users at present.


Similarly the native semantics of elements like header and nav don't yet
have any impact on screen readers which support the similar ARIA roles
(unless NVDA added support?) so you should add them even when there's
duplication:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/content-models.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-aria


However, with the new outline/sectioning algorithm, you can potentially 
go well over the classic h1-h6 number of heading levels, while the ARIA 
additional hints only allow mapping back to those six levels. In 
principle though, absolutely.


P
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Re: [WSG] attribute selectors and validation

2010-07-02 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 02/07/2010 13:09, designer wrote:

In a recent links for light reading  reference was made to a very
interesting article by Chris Coyier on attribute selectors such as 'rel'.

http://css-tricks.com/attribute-selectors/

At the very basic level, the article exemplifies
h1[rel=external]{color : red;} used with the html:

h1 rel=externalAttribute Equals/h1

I tried this, and several other really useful examples, but later found
that the validator doesn't like it/them, saying:

there is no attribute rel
You have used the attribute named above in your document, but the
document type you are using does not support that attribute for this
element. This error is often caused by incorrect use of the Strict
document type with a document that uses frames (e.g. you must use the
Transitional document type to get the target attribute), or by using
vendor proprietary extensions such as marginheight (this is usually
fixed by using CSS to achieve the desired effect instead).

Do we just ignore this? I always thought of 'rel' being used with links,
but on playing about I find that div rel=whatever works fine too.


I think the example used in that article is quite unfortunate and a bit 
removed from real world use...why would you have a rel on the h1 or div? 
Makes no sense semantically, and seemed a very stilted bit of code just 
so he could then show the example with attribute selectors.


I'd say no, don't ignore it. Stick with valid markup. In the case of the 
h1 there it seems far more logical to use a class name...just because 
you can now do attribute selectors, doesn't mean that the old tried 
techniques are not valid.


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Re: [WSG] possible to exclude handheld stylesheet for specific devices?

2010-05-14 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 14/05/2010 22:35, tee wrote:

I want to serve a style sheet for mobile devices and the idea is to support as 
many devices as possible, however iphone and Andriod are pickup up the style 
sheet.  Hopefully iPad isn't.

Is possible to exclude these two devices as I wanted to offer better user 
experience for the two devices' users?


Use CSS3 mediaqueries to target the different device sizes (i.e. offer 
better experience based on capabilities - in this case, bigger screens - 
and not specific devices).


As luck would have it, Russ made the mother of all presentations about 
it recently http://www.slideshare.net/maxdesign/css3-media-queries


P
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Re: [WSG] blockquote

2010-04-04 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 04/04/2010 10:38, Chris Price wrote:

Blockquote is one of those tags that was badly misused for styling
purposes. Now it can only be used within a block level element, namely
p. I like to use the q tag because it introduces quote marks in Firefox.

I can't see what value it now has. Being a block quote you would assume
it is a block element but if it requires a container it just seems to be
an unnecessary layer. Wouldn't it be better to simply encase a quote in
a p and give a class 'blockquote'?


blockquote allows you to pull together multiple paragraphs as part of a 
single quote. just having separate paragraphs with qs would just not 
mark them as being part of the same quote, rather than separate quotes. 
*if* you've only got a single-paragraph quote, this line gets blurry 
though. one thing blockquote does have that q doesn't is also the cite 
attribute (as minimally useful as it is today).


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

2010-01-31 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 31/01/2010 22:50, Andrew Stewart wrote:

Whilst I think there are some silly impenetrable sites on the internet,
I don't think web developers should really be that concerned with
accessibility - not because it isn't worth it, but because we have
hardly any power over what the user sees. The real people that should be
concentrating on accessibility are people working on creating browsers
and operating systems because they can really do something about it.


Garbage in, garbage out. If you don't structure your content properly, 
add necessary hooks, and generally show basic awareness of what the 
problems are and circumvent them, there is no magical pixie-dust-powered 
technology in the browser or OS that can accessify your content.


And, for the last time, can we drop this whole accessibility = 
non-JavaScript solution according to WCAG 1 slant? WCAG 2 has been out 
for over a year now, and that's the yardstick we use. And yes, WCAG 2 
allows for scripting, or any other accessibility-supported technologies. 
But that still means that these technologies need to be used in a 
responsible and correct way...because that's the power over what the 
user sees.


P
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

2010-01-31 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 31/01/2010 21:05, Jason Grant wrote:

Now for us to say that a solution costing £26M to develop, should have
another £1M invested into accessibility (testing, implementing, etc.)
is a bit of a far fetched argument to be honest. The way the given PLC
looks at it is that 'we just won't employ disabled people for this
role as they will not be able to meet our targets anyway - we will
sign-post them to another role they can do'.


Which, in the UK, is a very clear-cut case of discrimination. The DDA 
mandates reasonable adjustments in the workplace, which should normally 
be taken pre-emptively. The 'we just won't employ disabled people for 
this role is a potent mix of ignorance and arrogance.


P
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

2010-01-31 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 31/01/2010 23:46, Andrew Stewart wrote:

Sorry to ask again, but please explain how the site could be made
accessible whilst maintaining the same ease of use?


Step one: make the flash itself keyboard accessible
http://www.google.com/search?q=flash+keyboard+access

Kbd users can then tab from one control to the next, and use arrow keys 
to move sliders left/right.


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

2010-01-31 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 31/01/2010 23:23, Andrew Stewart wrote:

My point about OS/browsers is that they can easily adjust the colours
displayed to the screen for the whole operating system, which makes the
whole computer more useable by colour blind users. Which is a much
better solution than spending hours removing reds/greens etc from your
site because it can be adjusted for specific users and will work with
every website/application.


So it's really not so much we have hardly any power over what the user 
sees, but rather I can't be bothered spending any time looking at the 
few most common colour combinations that can cause problems for users 
who are colour blind and avoiding those, so let the OS/Browser deal with 
it.


True, the OS/Browser/AT can work around your colour choices, but only if 
you implement them correctly. E.g. they can override colours you set in 
your CSS, but not in Flash, or in images. So again, you need to actually 
be aware how to build things properly. Simply saying that it shouldn't 
be your responsibility is not a carte blanche for not doing anything at all.


P
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

2010-01-31 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 01/02/2010 00:24, Jason Grant wrote:

@Thierry
Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in
'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end).


Even large corporations can be as misguided as you, Jason.


Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML?
Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in
'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running'
the HTML5 spec.


And they're also part of the effort for accessibility
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#acknowledgments

Whether they then follow the guidance they themselves have worked on is 
another matter, as with any large corporation. However, this does not 
give you a get-out-of-jail-free card.


Hey, http://www.google.co.uk still uses tables (!!!) for layout. Maybe I 
should stop using CSS altogether then, if they don't either?



I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why their
AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where
'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean:
time, money and skill, as outlined in my article.


For the last time: accessibility != making it work without JavaScript. 
It does mean that, with JavaScript, it's still accessible and usable 
(with keyboard, or screenreader, or screen magnifier, etc).



Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to continue
down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route?


Look, let's do it this way: let's agree to disagree. You can go off and 
feel that you've proven your point, while the rest of us can get on with 
actually understanding the implications of modern, standards-based, 
usable and accessible web development.


P
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

2010-01-30 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 30/01/2010 16:57, Jason Grant wrote:

@Paul Novitski Harsh wording Sir. That's all I can say. As a UXD
working on 12 million target user Government portal the only thing I
can try and be is broad, emphatic and deep, but I also develop apps in
my own spare time and have a wife and child to feed and maybe live a
bit of life in spare minutes. In first instance 'full accessibility'
is a must. In second, it might not be.


That depends on your definition and understanding of full 
accessibility. Are we talking WCAG 1, WCAG 2, ...?



@Peter Mount To some extent we are playing with fire developing
however we are developing. Sometimes (within Intranet systems
specially) we are specifically told by the client to develop for
IE6/IE7 and not care about other browsers as the client is trying to
save cash on testing (dev and UAT) and so on. Bottom line, there are
circumstances within which 'playing with fire' is what the client
wants.


That's a different argument to what you make in your blog post, which 
does not mention clients at all - just the argument that in those 
situations accessibility is irrelevant. There is a difference.



@Oliver Boermans IE6 / Intranets reply. Today we make a decision to
use JQuery as a framework for AJAX/JS. In two year JQuery gets dropped
by browsers for whatever reason and browsers no longer support it. We
are once again 'playing with fire'. Do you know exactly what future
holds? How do we know that everything we are doing today will not have
to be re-written in 2-3 years time to be compatible. HTML4 --  HTML5
is a perfect example of a case where technology will imply some
changes need to be made in order for things to keep up with time. Just
a thought.


So, what are you getting at? Yes, let's make the intranet completely 
inaccessible and just wait until an employee with disabilities gets 
hired, then redo it all?


Looking at your comments on the blog, I note we should be able to get 
away with single A accessibility and a solid mobile solution instead. 
Accessibility is not a matter of getting away with anything. It's 
about providing the best solutions for the widest possible audiences. 
You seem to have a dichotomy of UX vs Accessibility, for some reason.


And again you seem to be stuck on the no JavaScript mindset. Is THAT 
really the crux of your argument? Are you hung up on WCAG 1? Is your 
blog post simply boiling down to I want to use JavaScript, but WCAG 1 
won't let me, but for UX it's great, and I can't be bothered to do a 
no-JS parallel solution? If so, WCAG 2 of course allows JS, if it's 
used correctly.


So I can finally understand the principles behind WCAG2.0.

I get the impression that you still don't, I'm afraid. By saying that 
accessibility does not matter in certain situations, you're implicitly 
saying that WCAG 2 doesn't matter.


P
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!

2010-01-29 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 29/01/2010 14:09, Jason Grant wrote:

I was going to post a big debate on 'Why accessibility doesn't matter'
to this list, but have delegated it to a blog post on the similar
subject instead.

I feel there has been LOADS of 'accessibility is a must' type
discussion on this list, but at the same time I feel that there is
loads of arguments which are essentially 'accessibility for the sake
of accessibility'.

My point is that we are heading towards the times where 'relevant
accessibility' is more important than 'accessibility' per se.

Please have a read of my article and comment via email or on the blog itself.

http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/accessibility-does-not-matter/


I'm sorry to say that, in my opinion, your argumentation is confused, 
ill informed, and misguided. More detail in my comment.


P
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Re: [WSG] developing a web strategy...

2009-12-01 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 02/12/2009 00:43, Andrew Harris wrote:

* obviously, a web strategy will include, at some point, a discussion
of web standards, so there's the tie-in!


At the risk of taking this even further off topic: maybe it's just a 
question of bad nomenclature, but web strategies are a broad term that 
needs refining a lot more. If - as it used to be the case when I was web 
editor for a uni - this strategy covers external-facing marketing 
website(s), it should really be an extension of the overall marketing 
strategy (and outline how the marketing objectives would be met via the 
website). If it also needs to cover internal sites or even broad 
provision of IT for teaching and learning provisions, there's obviously 
further strategies that it needs to hang off. But in both cases, I 
actually found that discussions about web standards, accessibility, etc 
are best served by having separate web publication guidelines, and have 
the strategy simply refer to them.


IMHO, anyway,

P
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Re: [WSG] Trip down memory lane

2009-10-26 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 27/10/2009 00:05, Susie Gardner-Brown wrote:

Geocities is closing down! So xkcd did a commemorative ‘reprise’ of
their site ... http://xkcd.com/499/


I think Bruce Lawson's tribute from a few years ago is also quite 
fitting now.


http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2004/zengarden/

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Re: [WSG] opera 10 and access keys

2009-10-06 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Luc wrote:


Does anybody know if Opera 10 has problems with access keys? The list
pops up but just shows a blank window.



http://www.dzinelabs.com/sandbox/New_site_layout/maxtest.html


Works fine for me in Opera 10 final - Shift+Esc brings up the list of 
2,3,4,5 and 6

http://www.opera.com/browser/tutorials/nomouse/#access

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Re: [WSG] Print Preview Cut off after 1pg

2009-07-02 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Kristine Cummins wrote:
I implemented a style sheet and works fine, however all pages are being 
cut off after one page. Any idears?


 


Site: http://wfdj.sbw.org/
CSS: http://wfdj.sbw.org/m/styles-print.css


From what I remember, the culprit is usually floating. Try removing the 
main big floats (for the navigation, content, etc) in your styles and 
see if that helps.


P
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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Rick Faircloth wrote:


Although that single link provides a lot of

convenience for the user, they could still visit all 11 plus sites

to register their site on delicious, digg, google, facebook, twitter, etc…


That assumes that the users will want to bookmark the page/site on all 
11 social bookmarking sites, rather than only on the one, maybe two they 
use, if any. And assuming that, if they indeed regularly use those 
social bookmarking sites, they haven't already got a bookmarklet or 
similar at hand to facilitate that function on all other sites as well 
that don't provide the in-page bookmarking function.


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Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Rick Faircloth wrote:

Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these
days, who knows what things will be like then!


Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;)

P
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Re: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question

2009-03-12 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Glen Wallis wrote:

I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider opening 
a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to conform to 
Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0.


*3.2.2 On Input:* Changing the setting of any user interface component 
does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has 
been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A)


I believe the issue here is changing the setting. When a user is 
activating a link, it's not a change of settings...it's an actual action 
to navigate. So it's desirable to still let users know that a new window 
will pop up, but not essential. Compare this to a change of context (new 
window or otherwise) when, say, a user simply changes the selected 
option in a select element (old-school navigation dropdown selects).


P
--
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Re: [WSG] IE and the button element

2009-02-23 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 2:10 PM,  michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote:
 Surely the button element is REQUIRED to be enclosed in a form ??

Is it though? Just looking at HTML 4.01, I don't think it's
forbidden/invalid to have form elements outside of form
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-BUTTON and even
in HTML 5 I don't get the impression they have to
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/forms.html#the-button-element

(Sorry, genuine question...not trying to be facetious).

P
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Re: [WSG] IE and the button element

2009-02-23 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Robert O'Rourke r...@sanchothefat.com wrote:

 I don't really know how toread the DTDs properly

Yeah, it's obscure for sure.

 !ELEMENT BUTTON
 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-BUTTON - -
(%flow; http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/sgml/dtd.html#flow)*
 -(A|%formctrl;
 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/sgml/dtd.html#formctrl|FORM|FIELDSET)
-- push button --

Using Toolman's excellent 2005 article The Art of Reading a DTD
http://www.autisticcuckoo.net/archive.php?id=2005/05/01/art-of-reading-dtd
I think the above can be decyphered as:

!ELEMENT BUTTON - -
 (%flow;)* -(A|%formctrl;|FORM|FIELDSET)
 -- push button --

opening and closing tags are required, it can contain any number of
flow elements (block or inline), but can't CONTAIN links, other form
controls, forms or fieldsets.

P
-- 
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Re: [WSG] WSG Digest

2009-02-15 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

rvalenzu...@mapfreseguros.cl wrote:

Dessde el 9 al 27 de Febrero me encontraré de vacaciones.


Counting down the days...

P
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Re: [WSG] A Semi-Transparent Background Color?

2009-02-11 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Brett Patterson wrote:

Hi all,

I was wondering why there was no implementation to allow a 
semi-transparent background color using CSS? If there is, is there a 
link that would point me in the direction to figure out how to go about 
implementing it on a Web page?


RGBA in CSS3, if you're only targetting the latest browser versions
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#rgba-color

P
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Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript

2009-01-26 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

David Lane wrote:

Given the increased number of threats and the availability of slick
script blocker extensions for Firefox like NoScript
(http://noscript.net/) it's only going to get more common, particularly
among security conscious people. I certainly use it, only enabling
Javascript for a site I'm visiting when I can see what benefit it has to
me.


As good as it is to hear anecdotal evidence from expert users such as 
list members here, I'd say it's much more important to bring some actual 
live user stats to the table. Most normal users don't even know that 
the internet is not just the blue E on their desktop, or what 
javascript is, or how to install extensions, or what security threats 
are. Heck, most don't even know that they can zoom/text resize/print 
most of the time, without having a widget or icon on the actual pages.


P
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Re: [WSG] Microformats Accessibility

2009-01-20 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Michael MD md...@spraci.com wrote:

 ...btw looking at the examples draws attention to a big usability problem
 with so-called human dates...
 (which has little to do with microformats or markup .. its more a problem
 with culture and education)


 If something like February 9th appears on a page is that really
 human-friendly?
 .  what year is that?   is it coming up ? ... or am I looking at an old
 page about something from last year? ...

Ah yes, the we know screenreader users are having problems with full
ISO...but *actually* they're better because they're more unambiguous
argument.

Strangely, humans have been using human-friendly date/time formats
since...forever, and have coped fine with ambiguity for the most part.
Human communications are by their very nature fuzzy and ambiguous,
and usually this fuzziness is then clarified through additional
knowledge (is this blog from the US or from the UK?, when you say
'dinner at 8' i assume you mean 8PM/20:00?, etc).

Yes, in a completely ideal world, if microformats weren't creating
actual problems to certain users as in this case, I too would jump on
the we're disambiguating the web, one datetime at a time bandwagon.
But for the time being, while there are known problems, I'd rather
wait until the uf community makes a concerted effort to take all the
proposed alternatives that can solve the issue into consideration and
adopt the best-of-breed one.

 Do you really want to hide a machine date when that may the only thing on
 the page you can use to tell what the date actually is?

Ok, in both cases, the onus is on the authors of those pages and how
ambiguous they are in the content creation. You bemoan the fact that
authors haven't made it clear what date/time they actually mean, but
then expect the same authors to also put unambiguous full ISO datetime
microformats around their fuzzy information? The real solution here is
to get these content authors to actually write their information in a
clearer way (in clear text), I would suggest.

 It would certainly be nice if people were to learn to write human dates
 more clearly!

 Lets ban those yearless dates, dd/mm/ and mm/dd/ sillyness and
 anything with two digit years!

Absolutely! Sorry, just seen that we're actually saying the same thing
here, so nice one.

P
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Re: [WSG] Microformats Accessibility

2009-01-19 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

As the lord of microformats Tantek seems so vehemently opposed  to it, I 
sincerely doubt it will happen any time soon. It's now been roughly 
three years since the debate around ABBR issues first started, and 
little visible progress seems to have been made. Who knows, maybe the 
cynic in me will be pleasantly surprised, but I won't hold my breath...


A timely blog post by Andy...and this marks the third anniversary of the 
same issues being rehashed


http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/designing_around_haccessibility/

though Ben Ward's efforts are to be noted...see

http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/designing_around_haccessibility/#r356

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Re: [WSG] Microformats Accessibility

2009-01-18 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Ben Rowe wrote:


Obviously it is a clash of HTML standards VS accessibility.


Actually, it's a clash of microformats' misappropriation of HTML 
standards VS accessibility...


An empty span won't kill anybody though. What you lose in code purity 
you gain in a slightly more accessible solution (as long as tools that 
consume those microformats actually recognise the span solution...been a 
while since I checked if that's the case - otherwise, it's purely academic).


P
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Re: [WSG] Microformats Accessibility

2009-01-18 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Anthony Ziebell wrote:


Just a note... for now the following should be used instead:

/span class=namehuman valuespan class=valuemachine 
value/span/span/


And rely on CSS to display:none that nested span?

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Re: [WSG] Microformats Accessibility

2009-01-18 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Anthony Ziebell wrote:
Yes, until the brainstorm is approved and made standard. Hopefully soon, 


As the lord of microformats Tantek seems so vehemently opposed  to it, I 
sincerely doubt it will happen any time soon. It's now been roughly 
three years since the debate around ABBR issues first started, and 
little visible progress seems to have been made. Who knows, maybe the 
cynic in me will be pleasantly surprised, but I won't hold my breath...


P
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Re: [WSG] SEO and Flash

2009-01-14 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Christie Mason wrote:

It seems that SEs are beginning to index text in Flash.  Maybe the same will
be true of screen readers, some day.

http://www.seochat.com/c/a/Search-Engine-Optimization-Help/Search-Engine-Ind
exing-for-Flash-Websites-is-Improving/#?kc=EWKNLINF01142009STR5


The needs of search engines and those of screen readers (and their 
users) are quite different. In the case of Google and co, they just need 
to trawl through all the unstructured text to index according to 
keywords. Screen readers need to actually understand the structure, and 
most importantly dynamic changes, relationships of elements, etc. And, 
with well-authored flash, it's possible even today to have a reasonably 
accessible experience even for screen reader users.


P
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Re: [WSG] too much accessibility - fieldset and legends

2008-11-27 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

tee wrote:

Quote BIM: I don’t see that the W3c intention and the JAWS screen reader 
implementation are necessarily at odds; JAWS has a “duty” to keep users 
informed that they are in the same group, and this is one way of 
achieving it.


Has a duty as being overly helpful that turns to  absurdity and 
annoyance?


Absurdity only if you're not wise about the length/wording of your 
legend text. Annoyance...that's surely up to screenreader users to 
decide for themselves? Unless you've got feedback from actual 
screenreader users stating that it's annoying, it sounds a touch 
patronising as a sighted developer to call the feature annoying.


Does BIM a memebr here too? I am sorry, but I think his logic and reason 
are at fault.


Is it relevant to this discussion that Bim is actually a blind 
screenreader user herself?


An annoyance is an annoyance whether the legend is one word or 10 words 
long. One word of legend text, if repeated 10 times to me over and over 
on every page I visit. It's an annoyance.


But is it an annoyance to somebody who can't actually see your form and 
has to rely on auditory cues to know where they are within the form?


P
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Re: [WSG] Text-only version

2008-11-20 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Rob Enslin wrote:

I'm involved in a CMS-based website project where the supplier has 
provided me with a breakdown of costs - before I sign it off.


One of the items highlighted in the breakdown is a footer-accessed link 
for a text-only version. The supplier claims it's the same technology 
used/developed by the BBC - called Betsie.


In this day and age, a text-only version benefits nobody anymore. It's 
unnecessary, if the actual site is built properly. Ask the supplier to 
leave it out. Oh, Betsie is also quite antiquated and, incidentally, 
open source http://betsie.sourceforge.net/


P
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Re: [WSG] Text-only version

2008-11-20 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Steve Green wrote:
You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you 
can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes.


Unless you set your user agent to do that, because presumably that's 
something you'd need on all sites, not just one particular one.


P
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Re: [WSG] re: Semantic use of rel and rev in anchors

2008-10-20 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Sorry, resending this, as I don't think my gmail account is signed up
to the list. (if it posted anyway, apologies for the doubler)

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Foskett, Mike
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Could someone tell me if the following use of rel and rev are semantically 
 accurate?

 Not quite sure I follow from your code, but to voice it out:

 a href=#tandc rev=appendixTCs/a

 Roughly, this says: the current page is the appendix of the place I'm
 linking to

 a href=tandc.html rel=appendixTCs/a

 The place I'm linking to is the appendix of the current page

 If I half understand your reasoning, you'd want this the other way
 around: the link somewhere in your page TO the TC uses rel, and then
 the link in the TCs that links back to the page per se (and
 presumably closes the popup?) would use the rev...but the link text
 itself should read something like back to the page, rather than
 TCs.

 --
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Re: [WSG] Web dev or design certificates

2008-08-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I agree on the markup.  But I think that only 10-20% of all sites 
nowdays on the internet are designed to standards.


But it's very suspect when the site of a company that sells expensive 
certification packages is itself quite badly constructed, don't you think?


P
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Re: [WSG] Lawsuits for inaccessible websites

2008-08-16 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

kate wrote:
In Australia, websites are covered by Disability Discrimination 
legislation,


Wow!
Idon't think ours are (UK)


Yes, they are.

P
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Re: [WSG] input type image

2008-07-14 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Taco Fleur wrote:

I have a question in regards to styling a submit button.

I have the following HTML
input name=doSearch type=image id=btnGo value=GO
src=/certainedge/_resource/generic/image/btn_go.jpg alt=GO



Following is the CSS I used, which I hoped would change the image, but
it doesn't.

input#btnGo {
background: url(/proximer/_resource/generic/image/btn_go.jpg)!important
top left no-repeat;
}


It probably works, but the background image is neatly covered by the 
actual image of the button itself.



Would it be acceptable to just use a input of type submit and leave
the value empty?
input name=btnGo type=submit id=btnGo


Not really, as the value in the case of these buttons is the actual 
label (that would, for instance, be read out by screen readers).


What are you actually trying to achieve?

P
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Re: [WSG] Book ideas for updating skills to modern html xhtml standards

2008-07-13 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Michael Horowitz wrote:
Is there a good book (something like Oreilly's nutsshell series) that 
works as a good desk reference for (x)html standards people recommend?


A few suggestions would be Paul Haine's XHTML Mastery 
http://www.amazon.com/HTML-Mastery-Semantics-Standards-Styling/dp/1590597656 


and Ian Lloyd's Sitepoint book http://www.sitepoint.com/books/htmlref1/

P
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Re: [WSG] Standards compliance and Autocomplete

2008-06-30 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Lisa Herrod wrote:
Just wondering if there is a standards compliant way of implementing 
'autocomplete' on forms, which I believe is proprietry...?


Not tested it, but...could you inject the autocomplete=off via 
javascript to the form element?


An example might be that there is a login and password field on a 
banking site and you don't want the browser to remember the data. I 
realise there are ways around this and that smart people can still work 
it out :)


Again, not tested, but unless I'm mistaken: when using https, the 
browser doesn't cache/autocomplete (I may be talking out of my rear 
here, but it does ring a vague bell).


If all else fails, I'd rather have an invalid attribute (with a good 
rationale why it was used) that doesn't have adverse effects (as opposed 
to invalid elements, which have the potential of messing up the DOM more 
dramatically) any day if it actually provides an improvement to usability.


P
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Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate

2008-06-24 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

kevin mcmonagle wrote:
Using swf object 2.0 embeded swfs as an xhtml sites primary navigation - 
what are the liabilities?


without flash, no navigation; not crawled/indexed by search engines; not 
keyboard-accessible in firefox; even in other browsers, not accessible 
unless you make damn sure your flash itself is accessible; wouldn't work 
on devices like iPhone and co...


more?

P
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RE: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Quoting Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Jonathan D'mello



To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
say it will break W3C standards.


Sorry, I just re-read this and realised that I completely got the  
wrong conversation. I thought for some reason that this was in reply  
to the [WSG] Marking Up Poems discussion, and that it was in defense  
of not following standards. Crikey...


Profuse apologies! I obviously haven't had enough coffee this  
morning...disregard my passionate reply rant...


P
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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Andrew Harris wrote:

A poem is, essentially, a block quotation, is it not?


Not if it's your own poem you're putting on your own page.

P
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Re: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-18 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Rob Enslin wrote:

I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages 
where previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the 
support staff and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard 
file extensions (or rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard)


Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to actually point 
out where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be...


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Re: [WSG] HTML special characters coding

2008-06-17 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Matthew Holloway wrote:


(I use XHTML and I also want to be parseable as XML so aside from XMLs
inbuilt entities of lt; gt; amp; quot; and apos; I tend to use
NCRs...).


Beyond the inbuilt entities I tend to just use the characters directly 
in the markup and specify UTF-8 encoding. Has been working reasonably 
well in all modern browsers.


P
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Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute

2008-05-27 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

kate wrote:
The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called 
the attribute tag.


or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people...

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Re: [WSG] Accessibility for HTML Email

2008-05-17 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I'm guessing you don't actually administer a corporate size
spam-filtering 'solution' do you?  


I have spamassassin on the server, and thunderbird as client - and I 
rarely see spam make it through those and into my inbox. Does that count?


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility for HTML Email

2008-05-15 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote:

I like the idea of a title tag being used i.e.-
a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title=e-mail address -
[EMAIL PROTECTED]first name last name/a


so what if i want to copy/paste the email from the page to another 
document or something?


P
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility for HTML Email

2008-05-15 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote:

Although spam is a big red flag for many.


Which should ideally be solved at the email server + email client end, 
in my view.


P
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Re: [WSG] The Problem of adjacent links

2008-05-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Rob Kirton wrote:

I'd be highly surprised if a screen reader manages to read CSS.  Most 
struggle with HTML


But the screen reader doesn't need to read the CSS, as the DOM already 
makes it quite clear where each link starts/stops, and screen readers 
can easily distinguish between them even without any characters, gaps, 
whatever between them...


P
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Re: R: [WSG] Alternative to align = center?

2008-05-04 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Stuart Foulstone wrote:


It is quite easy to remember what this class name does, but if you wish to
use some more obscure name, feel free.


And if, at a later date, you change the CSS for a different layout, you 
potentially end up with class names that suggest one thing when they 
actually do another (e.g. .centre { float: left; } ) ...


P
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Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-30 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Joseph Taylor wrote:
Great information and clarification everyone. 

If anyone hasn't taken an underlying message away from the conversation 
so far, it is to use HTML 4.01 Strict for you web documents when possible...


I wonder where you're getting that message from, to be honest...

P
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Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-29 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Andrew Maben wrote:
I'm finding myself having to justify my work methods to a boss who has 
almost zero interest in usability, accessibility or standards. (Though I 
have managed to get into the long-term plan: ...website that is 
compliant with W3C standards and Section 508...)


One question that has been raised is if site X has pages that validate 
as transitional, why do you have to produce pages that validate as strict?


Personally, I find that it's actually no more difficult to validate to 
strict, so my answer would be along those lines...but obviously don't 
know your particular situation (e.g. lots of decentralised content 
authors, a heterogeneous team of authors with different skills, a 
hideous CMS WYSIWYG tool that outputs all sorts of rubbish, etc)


Pages that validate as strict are superior to transitional because 
___.




There's not really a clear-cut answer. Again, speaking personally, I 
find that using strict helps in my quality assurance of other authors' 
work, because strict removed most of the presentational 
elements/attributes, whose presence often points to the likelihood of 
inaccessible content. By running third-party pages through strict 
validation, I can instantly see if they stuck in font elements or the like.


That is not to mean that it's not possible to make royally inaccessible 
pages in strict, mind...it just helps quickly identifying common old 
sources of problems from the HTML 4 days...


It is important to serve pages that validate as strict because 
___.


Serving them as strict is irrelevant, in my mind. You could in fact 
still have transitional pages, just run them through the validator set 
to strict for the reason above.


IMHO, of course.

P
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Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-29 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Pages that validate as strict are superior to transitional because 
___.




There's not really a clear-cut answer. Again, speaking personally, I 
find that using strict helps in my quality assurance of other authors' 
work, because strict removed most of the presentational 
elements/attributes, whose presence often points to the likelihood of 
inaccessible content. By running third-party pages through strict 
validation, I can instantly see if they stuck in font elements or the like.


Additionally: of course, presentational elements/attributes that fail 
validation as strict also point to an incomplete separation of content 
and presentation. This can cause major headaches when/if you want to 
make your same site/pages work across different media (print, mobile, etc).


By doing a bit of additional work at the content entry / page creation 
stage (making sure it validates as strict), you can save a lot of time 
and cost later on by not having to develop a completely separate 
printer friendly page or a separate mobile version (though, of course, 
with mobile there's the argument that you may still need a separate, 
streamlined version of your site that only shows the content/features 
that are relevant to somebody visiting your site on the go - e.g. more 
important to have quick access to latest news, important contact phone 
numbers and travel directions to your physical offices, rather than a 
whole raft of pages devoted to the history of your company etc)


And, of course, once presentation is reasonably separate from content, 
it can be less painful to move to a complete site reskin/refresh. Again, 
bit of extra work up front, lots of savings in the future.


P
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Re: [WSG] transitional vs. strict

2008-04-29 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Joseph Taylor wrote:

For example, I don't use the strict doctype because, its better, cooler 
etc.  I use it because it makes IE6 more predictable as the traditional 
doctype puts the browser into quirks mode which makes for a few more css 
display oddities.


Hah, blissfully forgot about that one. Another very strong point: more 
predictable = less time and money wasted on workarounds and CSS acrobatics.


P
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Re: [WSG] Path semantics

2008-04-14 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On Mon, April 14, 2008 3:25 pm, Samuel Santos wrote:

Semantically speaking, what is the right HTML/XHTML element to represent a
path or a file name?
Would it be samp, kbd, or simply code?



var could work, at a stretch...

P
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Re: [WSG] Centering Elements

2008-04-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Chris Kennon wrote:

I yet to devise an elegant solution centering all elements within 
div#innerContainer. Would a gifted Standardista offer an elegant 
backward compatible solution?


div#innerContainer { text-align: center; }

div#innerContainer * { margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; }

?

P
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Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is u deprecated?]

2008-03-31 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Of course, this all also depends on the target audience of your site.  
If it's something aimed at the middle-/upper-class 11-16 market, for  
instance, you can start to assume a higher IT literacy level.


As with anything, absolutely everything is relative :)

P
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Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is u deprecated?]

2008-03-31 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Quoting Roberto Castaldo [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


But our challenge (for all of us who make the Web) is to find out and
apply rules which can be useful for the largest majority of users, and we
must do it for the Web, not for other media; any Web user should be (or
become) used to reasonable Web conventions, not to books ones, problems may
occur when conventions coming from different media are scrumbled without any
kind of criterion or common sense.

That's my opinion is that underlined text CAN generate misunderstanding, and
misunderstanding with Web sites navigation should be avoided at all. So I
simply avoid underlined text, and use bold or some other typographic effect
(font size/design + color) instead.


Oh, assolutamente. I wasn't advocating use of underline itself for  
older audiences - I was actually thinking about the opposite  
situation: times when you *can* drop the underline, if the context  
makes it clear enough that something is a link (e.g. left-hand  
navigation bars).


P
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Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

2008-03-30 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Justin Sinclair wrote:
I'm curious - I've read something similar to the following quote a bunch 
of times: 




Abusing em just for italics or strong just for bolding,
when no

 emphasis is intended is the same *sort of* abuse as

using tables for

 layout. It is only abuse of a slightly lesser

degree.




Are there really torrents of em and strong abuse out in the real world?

Most of the presentational uses of strong and em in paragraph text are 
semantic. People want text bolded in a paragraph to give it emphasis, to 
make it pop out of the surrounds - to make it strong. This seems to 
me entirely semantic.


Not sure how torrential the abuses are, but the ones I see most often 
are similar to the situations I see every day when people author 
documents quickly in Word: instead of defining Heading 1, Heading 2, 
etc, most people quickly write down their document and simply make the 
paragraphs that are headings bold, italic, bump up the font size a bit, 
etc, until it looks like the document they have in mind. Then, they 
always complain that, once the document gets large, they always have to 
manually create their tables of content, keep track of page numbers when 
they copy/paste/rearrange sections, etc. Or, slightly less evil, they do 
define things as Heading X, but then don't like the style that's 
assigned and simply use bold/italic and set different fonts/sizes 
manually, for each occurrence, rather than diving into the CSS-like 
functions of Word to define the document's overall style.


P
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Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Nancy Gill wrote:
Actually, this link from the W3C suggests the use of both target and 
title .. target to open the window and title to tell the user that a new 
window will open.
 



  Example 2: A link that opens in a new window

In HTML 4.01 the |target=_blank| attribute can be used on an anchor 
element to indicate that the URI specified by the href attribute will be 
opened in a new window. This example shows using the |title| attribute 
of the anchor element to provide information that the link will be 
opened in a new window.


a href=http://example.com/subscribe.html; 
 target=_blank 
 title=link opens in new window

 Subscribe to email notifications about breaking news
/a

from this article:

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H33.html

Nancy


That WCAG2 technique does not suggest the use of target. It merely 
says that if people *do* use target that way, *then* that link can be 
complemented with a title, i.e. that page is about the title attribute, 
not the use of target per se, and it neither approves or disapproves of 
its use.


P
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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

dwain wrote:



On 3/23/08, *Matijs* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello Dwain,

Are you at liberty to elaborate on the reasons for wanting to
support NN4?

Thanks!


Matijs


been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards.


The latest version of NN4 came out in 1998. Zeldman's book came out in 
first edition in 2003, and at that time there may have still been some 
NN4 users out there. Nowadays, NN4 is irrelevant, unless you know for 
sure (from your website's stats) that a sizeable part of your audience 
is using this dinosaur of web browsers...


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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Re: [WSG] Spolsky on IE8 flag

2008-03-18 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Lea de Groot wrote:

Joel Spolsky has published an ... interesting article
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html


Ok, I actually sat down and read Joel's convoluted prose...

DOCTYPE is a myth.
A mortal web designer who attaches a DOCTYPE tag to their web page 
saying, “this is standard HTML,” is committing an act of hubris. There 
is no way they know that.


Joel seems to be confusing HTML - which is quite strictly standardised - 
with CSS/DOM.


In the real world where people are imperfect, you can’t have a standard 
with just a spec–you must have a super-strict reference implementation, 
and everybody has to test against the reference implementation.


Reference implementation for content marked up in HTML is the W3C 
validator...again, confused about CSS/DOM?


Enough ugly hacks. 8 billion existing web pages be damned.

The fact that those 8 billion pages actually work fine in all other 
browsers, who all seem to have managed to agree on an interpretation of 
CSS/DOM by working together, ironing out test cases, etc, doesn't 
matter? Are MS joining the party?


They are usually websites which were carefully constructed to conform 
to web standards. But IE 6 and IE 7 didn’t really conform to the specs, 
so these sites have little hacks in them that say, “on Internet 
Explorer… move this thing 17 pixels to the right to compensate for IE’s 
bug.”


So they're standard, plus some crap thrown in for non-standard IE. And 
they do browser-sniffing or take advantage of CSS hacks, rather than 
progressive enhancement, conditional comments, and any other modern 
practices.


Mmhmm. All you smug idealists are laughing at this newbie/idjit. The 
consumer is not an idiot. She’s your wife. So stop laughing. 98% of the 
world will install IE8 and say, “It has bugs and I can’t see my sites.”


If my wife installed an early developer-release beta on her machine, I'd 
laugh at her, yes. Same as running a nightly release of something like 
Firefox and then complaining about breakages.


It's also worth remembering that the MS releases these early betas 
EXACTLY because currently sites break badly with its new rendering 
engine. Partly, that's due to new bugs and unfinished parts of the 
rendering engine, but also so that the development teams for those sites 
can test early, remove the IE-specific cruft that now compensate for 
bugs from 6 and 7 that simply aren't there anymore, and do some proper 
version testing rather than simply sniffing for IE or not.
Will there still be sites that, once IE8 is *actually* released to the 
public, still break? Yes, just as there were sites that broke when IE7 
came out. Mompop websites will break quite spectacularly. Sites on 
CD-ROM? I have quite a few old Amiga games that only run in emulation...


I still say the article is extremely long, confused and confusing.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] Spolsky on IE8 flag

2008-03-17 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Lea de Groot wrote:

Joel Spolsky has published an ... interesting article
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html


Far too long, and his point is buried somewhere...

IE8b1 is a very rough beta...heck, I'd call it an alpha. They have 
serious rendering issues so far, but I doubt that they'll make it into 
the final version, what with that interoperability policy looming over 
the IE team's head.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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