RE: [WSG] Where is browser compatibility in wcag?

2009-04-08 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]

 to be accessible the site doesn't necessarily have to look great, but
at least the content should show up in all browsers, even the old ones,
right?  


Well, just talking WCAG 2, the requirement would be to use
accessibility-supported technologies (see
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#cc4 and
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#accessibility-supporteddef). This does not,
however, take into account - or make any special requirement/concession
to - potential browser bugs (as seems to be the case with what you're
mentioning regarding IE5 not showing anything) or user agents which do
not themselves conform or wrongly implement those technologies.


 I went through WCAG 1 and WCAG 2, and I expected an appropriate
guideline to show up under Priority 1 (or Level A), but nothing. Or am I
missing something in the obscure wording of the document that is WCAG?


WCAG's primary concern is to ensure accessibility for users with
disabilities, not universal access on all devices, operating systems,
user preferences, etc.

Having said that, I'd say that regardless of WCAG or not, it would be
best practice to try and work around browser bugs - particularly if
there's evidence that the site does still have a sizeable portion of
users coming in with IE5, making it a financially viable proposition. As
a last resort, you *could* implement some specific conditional comments
for version 5, for instance.

P

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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Patrick Lauke
 designer
 Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites?
The only one I can find is IE only:

I know you're probably asking because a client insists on having it,
but...have we not evolved yet beyond replicating browser functionality
in-page? Will there also be a make this my homepage link?

Sorry, being a grumpy bar-stewart today...

P

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RE: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question

2009-03-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Jon Gunderson

 I think this requirement is a little out dated, screen readers today
do a good job of telling people that a new window is open.

But, as discussed, the requirement actually doesn't concern itself
directly with links popping up new windows, but more things like the
page all of a sudden reloading, changing url, etc unexpectedly. So it's
not outdated.

P

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RE: [WSG] IE and the button element

2009-02-24 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Chris F.A. Johnson

 On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, John Horner wrote:
 1) Button elements don't need styling, they take their styling from 
 the user's operating system, which they are, I assume, familiar and 
 comfortable with. I won't be reinventing the wheel.

 Button elements are styled by the browser.

But the browser should, in normal circumstances, heed any OS preferences
(or at least, unless explicitly styled differently, present all those
controls with a consistent look and feel).

 2) Anchor elements don't have a built-in disabled mode, buttons
   do,

Disabled mode is just more styling.

It's also a functional change, as it disables the button (makes it
unclickable and does not trigger the specified onclick action).

 and again the styling comes directly from the OS and the user is 
 familiar with it.

 Anchor elements are styled by the browser.

I believe John meant the styling of the 'disabled' button, so same as
above applies.

P

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RE: [WSG] Code scan, complient to guidelines version 2.0

2009-02-24 Thread Patrick Lauke
 David Dorward

 I use siteSifter - http://www.sitesifter.co.uk/

With the usual caveat that automated testing tools can flag up false
positives and false negatives (for instance, on one site I just ran
through the free sitesifter service, it flagged the lack of
Content-Language in the HTTP header as a problem, while ignoring the
fact that the language is set with both lang=en and xml:lang=en in
the actual document).

Particularly in the case of the tech-agnostic WCAG 2, automated tools
can only really check the machine-checkable parts, and there only using
an interpretation of the WCAG 2 Techniques document for a specific
subset of technologies.

P

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RE: [WSG] Copyright Issues

2009-02-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
 James Milligan

 What about coming up with your own?Not meaning to sound rude, but it
could be an opportunity for you.

+1

Particularly since, if I remember correctly, you already ended up with
the same problem with your startrek-related site that forced you to take
it offline?

P

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RE: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-08 Thread Patrick Lauke
Bringing it all back to the core question: cite is an optional
attribute, so can be omitted when using the blockquote element.

P

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RE: [WSG]WCAG 2.0 enlarging text to 200% ?

2008-12-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Heather

 With WCAG 2.0 finally coming out yesterday - I was wondering how many
ctrl + clicks in (firefox for example) 200% is?

 I would say it was 3 but some colleagues argue 2 or 4 ? Any
suggestions?

I'd say conceptually that's quite a nitpicky argument...say a page broke
spectacularly after 4 resize steps...would they then argue but it
passes WCAG 2.0's SC, because it's 3 steps that go to 200%? Also, by
default, Firefox 3 has whole page zoom (text, images and all) enabled,
and has to explicitly be set to only resize text.

With that said, go to about:config and look for
toolkit.zoomManager.zoomValues, and this will show the various zoom
factors at each step. In my case (which should be the default) these
are:

.3, .5, .67, .8, .9, 1, 1.1, 1.2, 1.33, 1.5, 1.7, 2, 2.4, 3

So, nominally 200% (which, according to the Understanding... bit for
that SC, means 200%, that is, up to twice the width and height - so
really a 400% increase in total area) is actually 6 steps, if you want
to go purely by numbers.

P

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RE: [WSG] Downloading Fonts

2008-12-08 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Ted Drake

 Safari and firefox3 support the @font-face attribute. I don't know the
status of Opera and IE8.

I think current Opera doesn't, but the next version (Opera 10, currently
available as alpha) will http://www.opera.com/browser/next/

P

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RE: [WSG] inline-block effect

2008-12-02 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Brett Patterson
  what does OP mean?

Original Poster, i.e. the one who started this thread.

P

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RE: [WSG] RE: Tools or analytics to detect assistive devices

2008-11-20 Thread Patrick Lauke
 http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3775

The flash method (detect presence of software that hooks into MSAA) may
be of some help if you write a small swf that then pings Google
Analytics or similar. But worth noting this recent article
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=61

More fundamentally though, the stats - if you manage to collect them -
could be interpreted either way:

- we are getting an insignificant number of screenreader users, so it's
not worth bothering with accessibility (which also holds the additional
misconception that accessibility is just about the extreme case of blind
users with screenreaders, rather than the whole spectrum of different
users, needs, assistive technologies, etc)

or

- we are getting such an insignificant number of screenreader users
BECAUSE our site is so awful in terms of accessibility, so we really
need to improve it.

As for checking which users have trouble with certain pages, no stats
package will help I think. Best you can do is make a very prominent
help/contact link on all your pages and allow for users to send feedback
directly.

P

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RE: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2008-11-06 Thread Patrick Lauke
wondering what part of THREAD CLOSED people don't understand...


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RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming

2008-07-03 Thread Patrick Lauke
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark 
Stickley
Sent: 03 July 2008 14:56
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming


I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 
'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier 
and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden 
appearance of a horizontal scrollbar?
 

Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't 
make a difference to them?
 
P

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RE: [WSG] Forcing a vertical scrollbar in Firefox 3

2008-06-20 Thread Patrick Lauke
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 html { overflow-y: scroll; }

Ah, back in the days I tried it Opera wasn't playing ball. I now see that (at 
least Opera 9.5) understands this now.

Good stuff.

P

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RE: [WSG] Forcing a vertical scrollbar in Firefox 3

2008-06-20 Thread Patrick Lauke
 

 Mark Voss

 html{min-height:100.2%;}

even more subtle

html { min-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 1px; } 

http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/49/

P

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RE: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick Lauke
 jody tate

 Most of their recommendations  
 include URI examples that use the .html extension and the 
 site itself  
 appears to use .html extensions: 
 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/Cover.html.

In fact, there's some advice that advocates ditching file extensions altogether 
for future-proofing

http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI
and specifically http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI#remove

P

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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick Lauke
Well yes, you could mark it up as XML behind the scenes, but you shouldn't be 
sending XML to the browser. They might or might not be able to cope with it, 
but you'd be breaking validation (unless you used XHTML sent as actual XML and 
start namespacing things).
 
In simple terms, I'd mark up each stanza as a paragraph and slap line breaks in 
for each line.
 
P
 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James 
Jeffery
Sent: 19 June 2008 10:08
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Marking Up Poems


A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to 
use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this 
case.

Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?

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RE: [WSG] html vs. html

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Jonathan D'mello

 To go off on a tangent Patrick, this is getting to be a rather common
 excuse from some developers. If they don't want to change code, they
 say it will break W3C standards.

The core tenet of web standards is to choose the most 
semantically/structurally appropriate way to mark content up using official W3C 
standards. But hey, feel free to just start making up your own markup 
(stanza/stanza, line/line, word/word) and style it with 
CSS...visually, it will probably look fine, but don't be surprised if you run 
into serious interoperability problems and issues like assistive technology not 
being able to understand what the heck you actually meant with your made-up 
markup...

P

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RE: [WSG] HTML special characters coding

2008-06-18 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Rick Lecoat

 So let me see if I have this right: as long as my page declares an  
 encoding (I use UTF-8) I don't need to encode the entities, I 
 can just  
 type them straight into the markup. Is that correct?

Make sure that your whole environment is UTF-8 (your code editor, any database 
input forms /admin page you may have, etc). Then yes, it should all work fine.
 
 Will it validate? (I normally use an xhtml 1.0 strict doctype).

Yes.

P

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RE: [WSG] firefox 3 beta5

2008-05-20 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Korny Sietsma

 Release Candidate 1 is out now, so hopefully things will get more
 stable when Ubuntu picks it up, but at the moment it's a world of pain
 - at least for my configuration!

Beta5 and RC1 have been rock-solid on my systems (WinXP). And, as far as I 
understand, RC1 is fairly feature complete (with regards to its rendering 
engine), unless some major howlers are reported in the next few weeks. From 
experience, the majority of instability / weird behaviour in these situations 
comes from reuse of an old profile...when jumping to a major new version, I'd 
always advise to start with a completely fresh profile to avoid any 
incompatibilities.

P

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RE: [WSG] IE8 news

2008-03-05 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Tate Johnson

 I agree with your latter point. However, I fear that it 
 protects lazy  
 developers who refuse to adopt standards based practices. That said,  
 the more and more you look at the community on the whole; it seems  
 less ignorant today than at the start of the decade.

The problem is that those lazy or ignorant developers are *not* actually
part of the community...they may not even realise that there *is* a community.

P

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RE: [WSG] ie8 flash scripts

2008-03-04 Thread Patrick Lauke
  kevin mcmonagle

 hi,
 anyone know how ie8 will work with ufo flash detection js and and the 
 standard dreamweaver flv embedding scripts?
 thanks in advance
 kevin

There's not even a downloadable beta of ie8 out yet...so I think there won't be 
much of an answer beyond speculation?

P

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RE: [WSG] long description and its implementation

2008-02-04 Thread Patrick Lauke
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake
 Sent: 04 February 2008 14:41
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] long description and its implementation
 
 It's been a while since I've dealt with the issue of screen reader
 accessibility and UFO insertion. I thought I remembered ours 
 being screen
 reader accessible until using window mode: transparent.
 
 Here's a blog post about our solution.
 http://www.last-child.com/make-flash-accessible-to-screen-read
ers-in-transpa
 rent-window-mode/
 The flash movie is no longer on Yahoo Tech

Ah, bingo...I do set it as transparent (because sadly it needs to be, as the 
movie, when clicked, overlaps the buttons below).

As it's pretty much eye candy, I left it at that at the time (and then promptly 
forgot about it until now).

P 

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RE: [WSG] long description and its implementation

2008-02-04 Thread Patrick Lauke
Interesting...so what DO you get? Is that with JS enabled?

P 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Green
 Sent: 04 February 2008 14:23
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] long description and its implementation
 
 I checked www.salford.ac.uk with JAWS 7.10 and 9.0, and 
 neither of them see
 either the linked image or the Flash content.
 
 Steve


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RE: [WSG] Usability for downloading documents

2008-01-28 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Should we be making this decision for the user though? If, by 
 default, 
 PDFs open within the browser, then won't we be changing their user 
 experience by forcing them to open/save?

In principle yes, but because so many other sites have worked around this 
issue (usually by opening new windows, or forcing download), there is no real 
default that users are accustomed to. I've resorted to forcing download (yes, 
thus perpetuating the erosion of default myself...a vicious circle).

P

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RE: [WSG] BBC in Beta

2007-12-18 Thread Patrick Lauke
A few things I noticed (being ultra-critical perhaps at this stage):

First three links on the page are invisible skip links that don't show up, even 
on focus, plus there's another hidden link to accesskey definitions after the 
accessibility help link.

On the separate modules, it's initially confusing that clicking on the 
expand/contract triangle and clicking on the actual heading itself has 
different effects. I'd have expected clicking on a heading to trigger the 
expand/contract, not take me to that particular section on the site (maybe it's 
just me).

The design itself is not very subtle...the gradients are just a bit too heavy 
and give a bumpy appearance. The gradient in the chunky footer makes the text 
towards the bottom of the box (e.g. Healthy living, parenting...) a bit hard 
to read, as the contrast is far too low.

Search box has no LABEL, but a title attribute of searchfield. They could 
have wrapped the text in the legend of the fieldset as an actual label, perhaps

legendlabel for=searchfieldSearch/label/legend

or just have a hidden (positioned off-screen) label for it (maybe with search 
terms as label text).

Just navigating by keyboard and hitting Reset homepage brings up the 
lightbox-style confirm/cancel dialog. However, the focus isn't set to this box, 
to tabbing simply cycles through the *whole* page's links (behind the dimmed 
fog of war) before finally getting focus on the actual confirm/cancel buttons.

Speaking of buttons, confirm/cancel, reset homepage, save changes, cancel, edit 
etc should possibly be actual BUTTON elements, not regular A links (for the 
purists concerned with the distinction between links going somewhere and 
buttons performing an action).

Hitting the edit buttons when a module is collapsed has no apparent effect, 
in which case they should remain hidden until expanded.


Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3

2007-12-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
Assuming you mean on Windows, I've used WinDiff in the past and was reasonably 
happy with it (though purely to get an at a glance comparison, not to 
actually do any further processing of compared files - it doesn't seem to like 
UTF-8, for a start...)
 
P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon 
Cockayne
Sent: 17 December 2007 15:38
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] File comparison tool for Dreamweaver CS3


Hi there,

What file comparison tool would you recommend for Dreamweaver CS3?


http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Dreamweaver/9.0/help.html?content=WSc78c5058ca073340dcda9110b1f693f21-7edc.html
 states:

Before you start, you must install a third-party file comparison tool 
on your system. For more information on file comparison tools, use a web search 
engine such as Google Search to search for file comparison or diff tools. 
Dreamweaver works with most third-party tools.

Cheers,

Simon

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RE: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO

2007-12-03 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Matthew Pennell

 1) Many (most?) screenreaders do not read the title attribute by default.
 2) Many (most?) screenreaders are perfectly able to execute JavaScript, so 
 when the user clicks the link, what happens? It might announce that the 
 document structure has been updated (by the addition of the lightbox div 
 overlay), but that doesn't tell you where or what has happened. 
 3) Screen magnifier users might not be able to see the changes to the screen 
 when they click the lightbox link.
 4) If the link's href points to the image, how does that help people with 
 scripting disabled? They just get the picture, with no caption. 

Another one:

5) by default, lightbox scripts don't account for keyboard users very well; try 
tabbing to a lightbox image, activate it, then try to simply tab to the close 
button. in most situations, the caret/focus is still on the page: you've 
effectively tabbed to the next focusable element on the main page, but the 
lightbox is still there and blocking the view. yes, some lightboxes have added 
things like pressing X or ESC to close the lightbox, but that's not obvious to 
users.

After a lot of soul-searching, I added a lightbox to our site, but made some 
modifications to its code and implementation. Still far from perfect, but I 
only use them for added interest, not really important content (though yes, we 
can argue that *any* content added is important, and should therefore be 
exposed completely to screen reader users):

1) the ALT reads Photo: [title of image] (click to enlarge)
2) yes, that's still a problem. I'm hoping that soon we'll be able to drop some 
ARIA stuff in there to alleviate the problem.
3) yes, also still problematic.
4) I've spent a bit of time working on this with additional scripting. 
Basically, the non-javascript link points to our photo gallery page. With 
javascript enabled, there's an additional script that modifies the href value 
of the lightbox links and adds a further GET parameter to the URL. the photo 
gallery page at the receiving end looks for this parameter, and if present 
simply pushes out the image on its own. Hope that makes sense...see it in 
action (with and without javascript) at http://www.salford.ac.uk/about/special/ 
for instance.
I use slimbox with mootools, and my additional script that does this is pretty 
straightforward
http://webhost.salford.ac.uk/common/slimbox_custom.js
5) i've modified the original slimbox to also close when a user tabs, to at 
least make it more friendly to sighted keyboard users.

In short, there's still no perfect solution, but I had to make a pragmatic 
decision in this regard.

I'm ready to be tarred and feathered now :)

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
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RE: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO

2007-12-03 Thread Patrick Lauke
Wow, nobody decided whether or not it was a good idea or not. Screen readers 
sit on top of the regular browser (in most cases on Windows, Internet 
Explorer). They don't support javascript, they read the browser's DOM. The DOM 
is affected by javascript. As users work their way through a page, they are 
simply using the browser. If there's any js behaviour associated with links or 
other tabbable elements, the browser fires these off as usual.
 
Now, as for title: screen readers support them (insofar as they can read the 
title information from the DOM). Whether or not they automatically read title 
out or not is a matter of user preferences. By default, they don't (but the 
title is still available to users if they trigger that particular functionality 
in the screen reader or set it as a preference).
 
P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY 






From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jixor - 
Stephen I
Sent: 03 December 2007 10:47
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO


Wow who decided it was a good idea to have screen readers support 
javascript and not title attributes!

You could make make the image point to an html file with the same 
filename and folder as the image then the javascript could replace with .htm 
with .jpg.

Matthew Pennell wrote: 

On Dec 3, 2007 7:48 AM, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:


When I have used them the caption has always come form 
the link's title attribute so I would assume that to be accessible?



Accessible to whom?

Some points to bear in mind:

1) Many (most?) screenreaders do not read the title attribute 
by default.

2) Many (most?) screenreaders are perfectly able to execute 
JavaScript, so when the user clicks the link, what happens? It might announce 
that the document structure has been updated (by the addition of the lightbox 
div overlay), but that doesn't tell you where or what has happened. 

3) Screen magnifier users might not be able to see the changes 
to the screen when they click the lightbox link.

4) If the link's href points to the image, how does that help 
people with scripting disabled? They just get the picture, with no caption. 

Your solution is good inasmuch as it doesn't rely 100% on 
JavaScript, but there are still many accessibility issues to consider.

- Matthew.


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RE: [WSG] Appropriate use of the ABBR tag and Roman Numerals

2007-11-29 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Matthew Pennell

 It's not an abbreviated form of the full date by any stretch of the 
 imagination.

Tell that to the microformats crowd - they've practically stretched the idea of 
abbreviation to anything, just so they can fit their machine readable data 
into the page...

 Why not just use a span (or whatever other tag is convenient): 
[...]
 Functionally it's exactly the same as using ABBR.

Except that screen readers won't expand spans or read out their title in any 
way. Though one could argue that screen readers should have their own 
heuristics to spot (the more unambiguous) roman numerals and read them out 
accordingly.

I think maybe the more fundamental question for Tate: why are you using roman 
numerals if you know they're going to confuse people?

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
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University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
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RE: [WSG] Appropriate use of the ABBR tag and Roman Numerals

2007-11-29 Thread Patrick Lauke
 E Michael Brandt

 How about dfn title=Year 2007MMVII/dfn ?

I think this may stretch the meaning of DFN. A defining instance is the 
occurrence of the term where the term is defined. It does not enclose the 
actual definition. It also should only occur once per page for each defined 
term.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
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Room 113, Faraday House
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RE: [WSG] how a href with javascript pass in A level

2007-10-23 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Gaspar

 I think this should get a manual check or warning.

You should ALWAYS do human checks of whatever an automated validation tools 
tells you, unless it's something purely technical (e.g. does markup validate to 
spec).

P

Patrick H. Lauke
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RE: [WSG] Encoded mailto links

2007-10-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Rick Lecoat

 Is there a way out what seems, to my inexperienced eyes, like 
 a catch-22
 situation?

Fix your spam issues at the mail server + mail client end, not at the web page 
end, would be my advice.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
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University of Salford
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RE: [WSG] Encoded mailto links

2007-10-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
Because you can't detect when a screen reader is there or not...
 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Or Golan
Sent: 17 October 2007 15:33
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Encoded mailto links



Why not simply display the email address as a simple mailto only when 
the browser is a screen reader? 


On 10/17/07, Rick Lecoat  [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote: 

On 17/10/07 (14:16) Patrick said:

Fix your spam issues at the mail server + mail client end, not 
at the 
web page end, would be my advice.

David said:
I, long ago, gave up trying. Methods are either highly 
ineffective,
or block out users you want as well as spam bots. I take the 
view
that email addresses are going to end up on spam lists 
eventually no 
matter what I do, and just run spam filtering software.

So the general consensus would seem to be forgeddabowdit.
I wondered if that would be the result, but I'm surprised that 
there
isn't a workaround -- only because almost everything else that 
I thought 
would be impossible some clever person has found a way to do.

To join with Andrew Maben, however, I'd be curious to know 
whether
spambots decode encoded entity text, eg:

'user'
becomes 
'#117;#115;#101;#114;'

(ignore quote marks).


I assume that they can read them perfectly easily -- browsers 
can, after
all -- but it'd be good to know for sure.
Same question for screen readers. 

--
Rick Lecoat




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RE: [WSG] Encoded mailto links

2007-10-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Rick Lecoat

 To join with Andrew Maben, however, I'd be curious to know whether
 spambots decode encoded entity text, eg:
 
 'user' 
 becomes 
 '#117;#115;#101;#114;' 
 
 (ignore quote marks). 
 
 
 I assume that they can read them perfectly easily -- browsers 
 can, after
 all -- but it'd be good to know for sure.
 Same question for screen readers.

All that would take for a spambot is to do a two-pass: replace all encoded 
entities, then scan the result for email-address-like patterns. Trivial. And 
once an email address is harvested by one bot, it's likely to end up on lists 
that are then sold and shared around...so even if not all spambots will bother 
with a two-pass, it's not a safe way to go about things...and I'd say it's more 
trouble than it's worth (makes editing the page a pain for non-techie users, 
for instance).

P

Patrick H. Lauke
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Room 113, Faraday House
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RE: [WSG] Encoded mailto links

2007-10-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Rick Lecoat

 If you are talking about actually hiding markup from certain agent
 types, I'd certainly like to know your method.

Screen readers run on top of normal browsers like IE of Firefox, so 
user-agent-wise you won't be able to really distinguish them. You *may* be able 
to catch some specialised talking browsers, but who uses those nowadays?

P

Patrick H. Lauke
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RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-08 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Gary Barber

 Why bother taking the time to make something that is good 
 quality when 
 at the end of the day the client just wants cheap and functional and 
 looks nice.  

Professionalism?

 So the client says Why should I use you with your standards and 
 accessibility,  Cowboy Design Joe here is half the cost and looks the 
 same, same Google ranking.

I find that building stuff with standards has dramatically reduced my 
development time, which in turn reflects quite favourably to the cost I can 
quote when doing my occasional bits of freelance. Of course, at the same time 
I'm also quite picky as to which projects I take...and if the initial 
discussion with a client already starts off with something like that guy can 
do it cheaper, then that's not the kind of client I want/need (as in the long 
run, they'll ALWAYS be more trouble than they're worth).

IMHO, of course.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
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RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-08 Thread Patrick Lauke
 And here's me thinking that WCAG 1.0  _WAS_ a web standard !?

Guideline, not standard.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
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RE: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-05 Thread Patrick Lauke
Ok everybody...welcome to the *Web Standards Group* mailing list, where we 
discuss *Web Standards*. For discussions on history, sociology, politics, law, 
morals, capitalism, communism, etc, I'm sure there are other places...
 
For those who don't think the DDA and ADA should apply in certain situations, 
and that certain decisions by judges are wrong, take it up with your 
congressman / councillor / equivalent to get legislation changed. No point 
moaning about it here. IANAL, YANAL, and this isn't a legal mailing list.
 
P

Patrick H. Lauke
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RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Patrick Lauke
If you're doing business in a country (as in your company has offices and/or 
stores in that country), that country's legislation applies.
 
P




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris 
Wilson
Sent: 03 October 2007 23:58
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard



Those are all well and good, but utterly useless in a global 
marketplace. Should I be under your countries guidelines? Mine? What if I'm 
international? All of them? What if country As guidelines are incompatible with 
country Bs... Or should legislation hinge on guidelines proposed, created, and 
managed by a non government body (WSG)?

You are all so quick to support legislation, but do you have any 
concept of how that would change the web, a concept not just of the 
accesability impact but the real impact? 





On 10/3/07, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

 Which idea of accessability should be imposed? Yours? Mine?

There are clearly defined ideas of accessibility for most 
countries - such
as the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0:
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/

Or Section 508 in the case of America:
http://www.section508.gov/

In Australia, for example, web accessibility hinges on the 
Disability Act of 
1992
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/dda1992264/

And is backed up by HEREOC's World Wide Web Access: Disability 
Discrimination Act Advisory Notes:

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/standards/www_3/www_3.html#s3_3

In June 2000, the Online Council, representing the 
Commonwealth and all 
State and Territory governments, agreed that the Worldwide Web 
Consortium's
Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 will be the common 
best practice
standard for all Australian government websites.

All this will change soon when WCAG2 hits the stands  :)

Thanks
Russ





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RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Jermayn Parker

 1992
 that is 15 years ago :shock:
 surely its time for a new updated version that includes up to date web
 version of rules etc.
 
 If you want businesses and websites to follow these standards 
 they need
 to be update

Because, you know...they've simply been ignoring 15 year old guidelines because 
they felt they didn't apply to them anymore...
They're probably avidly reviewing the current final stages of WCAG 2.0 and 
simply biding their time until it becomes an official W3C recommendation. Oh, 
even if they did, though, the issue of ALT attributes hasn't changed in the new 
version either...maybe they're holding out for 3.0?

P

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RE: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Julie Romanowski

 Please visit Michelle Malkin's site and post your comments -
 http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/03/blind-shoppers-get-green-
 light-to-s
 ue-target-over-website/.

It's reassuring to see the exact same idiotic views still being bandied around, 
most of them along the the web is visual and what next? blind people suing X

I'm not even going to jump into the fray this time around, as there's nothing 
new from when the lawsuit story first broke 
http://brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2006/the-webdev-communitys-response-to-the-target-lawsuit/

P

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RE: XHTML/HTML/Standards Conformance was Re: [WSG] Accessible - Standard Compliant - Club Membership System

2007-09-18 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Marghanita da Cruz

 While exploring the standards compliance/XHTML/HTML issue,
 I  was surprised by the variation in the display of Alt text.
 On the small sample, the XHTML/HTML did not seem to make a 
 jot of difference.
 
 The screen shots are available at
 http://www.ramin.com.au/linux/html-strawpolls.shtml

I'm not quite sure what correlation you're trying to find here...the doctype an 
author uses and the default behaviour of browsers should be two completely 
separate things.

P

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RE: [WSG] Speaking of alt tags . . .

2007-09-11 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Tee G. Peng

 Hmmm, I didn't think about that. My clients asked me how to add  
 *decorative* images by themselves, I asked are they any meaning/ 
 purpose of those images, are they echo to your content, they said no  
 I just wanted my page looks nice in certain area. I told them sorry  
 you can't do that, because if it's decorative purposes I 
 already took  
 care of it in the CSS.

For small/medium sites, it may be possible that you've already catered for all 
decorative situations in your CSS. But if your CMS solution is far more 
generic, and you need to accommodate for a wide variety of content pages, all 
with different decorative needs that may not be known from the start, this may 
not always be the case.

 I guess this is just how one interprets 'decorative' :)

I don't think we're in disagreement here. Just that I'm thinking of far more 
generic CMS deployments on large scale sites.

P

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RE: [WSG] lack of 'lang' attribute fails WAI

2007-09-07 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Tee G. Peng

 I am working on a bilingual site (chinese/english) that needs 
 to pass  
 at least WCAG AA, the site is UTF-8 charset and I didn't use lang  
 attribute in the meta because it's a bilingual site.
[...]
 What do you propose I should do to make the 'failure' goes away?

Is every page on your site in both chinese and english, all in one page? If so, 
as long as you're marking up the changes when you move from the chinese to the 
english section of your page, I'd say you can pick one or the other as the 
nominal language for the whole page.

P

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RE: [WSG] Investigating the proposed alt attribute recommendations in HTML 5

2007-08-30 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Alastair Campbell

 Does the HTML working group have to take into account 
 accessibility guidelines?
 
 What I mean is, does it have to make alt mandatory because WCAG (any
 version) does?

I don't think HTML5 is expected to be rolled out until 5 years or so. In that 
sense, WCAG 1 would probably not apply anymore, and because of WCAG 2's tech 
agnostic approach in the normative document it wouldn't be a problem (it would 
only require a new techniques document for HTML5).

P

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RE: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

2007-06-05 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Lucien Stals

 For a comparison, the w3schools site defines fieldset as The fieldset
 element draws a box around its containing elements. And that's the
 complete sentence. Note no mention of form controls.
 
 I leave it to others to debate the authority of the w3schools 
 site, and
 it's a debate worth having.

No need to debate it...w3schools is a cr*ppy resource, full stop. The 
definition of theirs that you quoted above is a case in point...they define an 
element by its visual effect? I haven't checked the site, can't be bothered, 
but I wouldn't be surprised if for blockquote they say it indents text...

 But I am a pragmatic 
 coder and if
 I wish to group thematically related elements (*not* necessarily form
 controls), then I'm free to use the fieldset if I wish to. Sure a DIV
 would work. But a DIV is void of semantic. It's the refuge of the
 unimaginative who want to wrap everything in excess tags with no
 semantic meaning just to hang CSS off.

The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class attributes, 
offer a generic mechanism for *adding structure* to documents.

Divining hidden meaning from the HTML specifications, conveniently ignoring 
certain parts of the descriptions, and then intimating I'm sure this is what 
the W3C *meant* to say is the refuge of...?

P

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RE: [WSG] Photo gallery markup semantics

2007-05-22 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Peter Leing

 I think the issue may be with how the browser is handling 
 spaces/tabs/carriage returns in the html file. Removing the 
 spacing in your page through firebug produced a similar 
 affect as the table display.

Can't guarantee how robust this would be in all situations, but I've just been 
playing with word-spacing to override the space without having to change the 
HTML itself. Seems to work ok in IE 6, IE 7, Firefox 2.0, Mozilla 1.7, Opera 
9.2 on WinXP. Not sure how Safari would handle it...

div { word-spacing: -.3em; }
ul, li { word-spacing: -.3em; }

I'd probably say that it's still worth fixing this at the HTML level, but I 
thought it would be an interesting little tidbit to share...

P

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RE: [WSG] Photo gallery markup semantics

2007-05-22 Thread Patrick Lauke
 
 Andrew Maben

 This may be heresy, but I think this might
 be a perfectly legitimate use of a (properly
 marked-up) table?

Tables are for tabular data (where rows/columns have a
very strictly determined relationship, and moving cells
around changes the meaning of the data). The data in
this case(the images) isn't tabular. Ergo, no,
it's not legitimate if you want to go by the standards.

P

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RE: [WSG] Hack for all IE versions including 7

2007-05-18 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Stuart Foulstone

 If you want to do hacks then you shouldn't pretend to do valid coding.

And broken browsers shouldn't pretend to follow the spec then...until that day, 
a small hack or workaround, if done cleanly, is perfectly acceptable.

P

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RE: [WSG] Semantics and small

2007-05-16 Thread Patrick Lauke
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim

 sub/sub Subscript lower than the text
 sup/sup Superscript higher than the text, maybe just a number 
 linked to a date in the page footer
 Or in a stylesheet make a class of smaller text.

Those three examples are all presentational.

P

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RE: [WSG] strong v's b , em v's i

2007-04-23 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Robby Jennings wrote:
  I've found this list of  depreciated tags 
  http://www.html-reference.com/depreciated.htm which lists 
 strong and 
  em as depreciated.   I thought the b tag would be depreciated.

The fact that they confused (based on the filename) depreciate with *deprecate* 
made me chuckle...

depreciate: to reduce the purchasing value of (money)

Them tags are getting cheaper every day...

P

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RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

2007-04-13 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Nick Fitzsimons

 Surely
 
 label for=searchBox
 input type=text id=searchBox name=q
 button type=submitSearch/button
 /label
 
 would therefore keep everybody happy?

Depends on AT support (whether or not a screenreader would actually be able to 
make sense of this construct and expose Search as explicit label for the 
search box when focussed on). Personally, I wouldn't have too many problems 
with this if support was consistent.

P

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RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

2007-04-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Stuart Foulstone

 If you're only concerned about providing form accessibility for
 screenreaders, and no other disability, you could use the 
 method below or
 a transparent.gif with appropriate alt-text would work too.

Not necessarily just for screenreader accessibility. If the input itself is 
large enough, there's no problem for users with motor problems. And arguably, 
having a button immediately adjacent to the text input that says Search (and, 
I'm assuming, having it in a logical common place used by most other sites, 
like top-right) is enough visual labelling, so omitting a visible label for 
that text input shouldn't really cause accessibility issues for other 
audiences...

P

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RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

2007-04-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Stuart Foulstone

 Sorry, I thought we were discussing labels for form input 
 boxes (not just
 one-box input search forms).

I was specifically talking about the type of form Bojana mentions in the thread 
starter.

 However, generally speaking, making assumptions about 
 accessibility based
 on the visual positioning of elements in a logical common 
 place used by
 most other sites is not a good idea.

I'm not making assumptions. I'm saying that, for sighted users, having a text 
input box with no visible label and a button that says Search immediately 
next to it is labelling enough.

 Better to design to Web standards rather the standard of 
 other Websites.

You seem to be getting a tad confused here. Am I talking about abandoning web 
standards? No.
Is it worth looking at other websites for common design patterns that users are 
already familiar with? Yes.

These aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm saying that having a label element that is moved off-left via CSS - keeping 
it in the markup, but not visible - is an acceptable solution in this case, and 
doing so would not pose accessibility problems to other user groups (e.g. 
sighted users with motor impairments, provided the text input offers a large 
enough clickable area in itself).

P

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RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)

2007-04-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Nick Fitzsimons

 Surely
 
 label for=searchBox
 input type=text id=searchBox name=q
 button type=submitSearch/button
 /label
 
 would therefore keep everybody happy?

Depends on AT support (whether or not a screenreader would actually be able to 
make sense of this construct and expose Search as explicit label for the 
search box when focussed on). Personally, I wouldn't have too many problems 
with this if support was consistent.

P

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RE: [WSG] Validation problem

2006-03-01 Thread Patrick Lauke
 McIvor Lee

 The phrasing of the Cynthia results page suggests that there 
 are alternative
 methods to pass this particular checkpoint without using a 
 label, but I don't
 know of one.

Adding a title attribute to the form element (in this case,
the SELECT) is one of these alternatives.

P

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RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

2006-02-24 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Ian Anderson

 To consider two extreme examples if the MSNBC logo was linked to the 
 home page, alt text of MSNBC would be the least helpful,

although that is the exact equivalent of what happens visually for
sighted users, and they then use their acquired knowledge to understand
that it links back to the homepage of the site.

 and alt text 
 of Home would be the most correct.

but then you've removed the branding/identification from the page.

How about a dual approach of using ALT that describes the image (MSNBC)
and a title on the link to provide additional advisory information of
where the link is going to ('MSNBC home page'), i.e.

a href= title=MSNBC home pageimg ... alt=MSNBC //a

P

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RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

2006-02-24 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Ian Anderson

 Great minds and all that? If you reread the previous bit of my post 
 you'll see:
 
 'So, the logo should say something like MSNBC home page'

Yes, but you seemed to suggest having that as the ALT, whereas I'd say
it's more appropriate to just have MSNBC as the ALT and have the
MSNBC home page as the TITLE on the link. But yeh, in principle we're
on the same tracks :)

P

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RE: [WSG] Font Sizes - Best practice

2006-02-20 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Lachlan Hunt

  but lot's of people (mostly designers) who prefer smaller 
 font-sizes.
 
 It's unfortunate that so many designers prefer small font 
 sizes.  They 
 fail to realise that while they may think small fonts may 
 look good from 
 a design perspective and are easily readable on their massive, 
 super-high resolution, 21 monitors, it actually looks really 
 awful and 
 is extremely difficult for many users to read.

A far more fundamental group of people (which I already mentioned
in my first email on this discussion) is of course that of
the clients who pay for web design/development. Yes, we as developers
can educate them, but when they see their competitor sites (and
even big sites from the likes of IBM and co.) *all* setting a slightly
smaller default font size, they expect the same on their site as well.
A yes, but all those other sites are wrong and I do it the right way
argument won't hold much weight in that situation, I'm afraid...

Patrick

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RE: [WSG] Question - th appearing in scope of another th

2006-02-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Jamie Mason

 When a new th appears, does it append to the previous header?
 Or replace/start again the context of it's scope?  Is it something
 that is/can be affected by use of tbody's possibly? Or should this
 never occur and the structure of the data be rethought?

I may be wrong, but I'd suspect that this is the level at which
you need to start using headers attributes.

Patrick

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RE: [WSG] site check: FONT sizes

2006-02-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
 kvnmcwebn

 lisa,
 If you provide the user with a Javascript pop-up window that they
   right-click to display a pretty flash-based font-increasing
  app, the user
   could increase the font as much as they like.
  
   It's known as the 'Clydesdale Hack'.
 
 
 can you give me an example of the this?...it sounds like this 
 would be a
 tough nut to crack for me.
 

Lisa forgot to put the sarcasm tags around her content. She wasn't being
serious there...

 are there other recommended options for a font volume controller,
 swicthing style sheets/skins  etc..

I'm fairly hardline and say that this is not the type of functionality
we as web *content* developers should be bothering with. The onus is
squarely on the *browser* to provide this functionality to the user.

Patrick

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RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-10 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Conyers, Dwayne, Mr

 While I believe accessibility is an important design issue, 
 is there legal
 precedent for suing someone for poor design?

Does the Ramada/Priceline debacle count?

http://news.com.com/Travel+sites+agree+to+changes+for+the+blind/2100-1038_3-5318568.html

P

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RE: [WSG] list's with header text

2006-01-31 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Lea de Groot

 Wouldn't
 h2 for=mylist/h2
 ol id=mylist/ol
 be nice? :)

So what do you do when you have 2 or more elements that the heading refers to?

h2 for=mypara1 mypara2/h2
p id=mypara1/p
p id=mypara2/p

etc?

It's not really a scalable solution, IMHO.

As someone already mentioned, the source order should be enough to inform what 
the heading refers to, without the need for explicit association.

Patrick

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RE: [WSG] list's with header text

2006-01-31 Thread Patrick Lauke
 kvnmcwebn

 patrick wrote
 As someone already mentioned, the source order should be 
 enough to inform
 what the heading refers to, without the need for explicit 
 association.
 
 sorry i dont understand this could someone please explain?

If you have a heading, followed by some other content (but not a heading of 
same or higher importance), the heading can be assumed to refer to that 
content. Fairly simple.

h1This heading refers to what comes after it/h1
pthis is part of what the h1 refers to/p
pthis is also part of what the h1 refers to/p
h1Another heading/h1
pthis is now part of what the other heading refers to/p
pthis is also part of what the other heading refers to/p

I.e.: the order in which the elements are present in the source code should be 
enough to determine which heading refers to what...

Patrick

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RE: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq

2006-01-30 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Anders Nawroth

 Does the toggle function have to be connected to a a element, or do 
 JS-enabled screen readers recognize onClick events attached to other 
 elements?

The function needs to be attached to an element that receives focus, i.e.
an element that users can tab to via the keyboard. Links, form elements,
image map areas and objects.

P

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RE: [WSG] .htm include file into another .htm

2006-01-18 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Svip

 Actually, the best way would be to use PHP,

If it's only a case of including a piece of static content inside another page, 
there's really no advantage in using PHP over simple server-side includes.

 and besides, we do not
 tend to call them HTM pages, but rather HTML pages.

Possibly just a question of preference?

 Which would not include your comment mark, and I do not know either
 if your way is a standard, as I have never heard of it. Besides, I
 hate frames, and thus would not suggest your way.

As Lachlan already mentioned, it's nothing to do with frames, but it's an 
Apache specific functionality.
More generally, it's not really important from a web standards point of view 
what happens server-side...only the final output which is sent to the user 
agent. i.e. you can use Perl scripts, SSIs, PHP, whatever...as long as the 
final HTML document that the browser displays adheres to markup/css standards.

 Note: When using PHP, you probably need to name your original file
 with .php at the end.

Depends on how the server is set up. You can even configure it to process .htm 
and .html files. On the same note, the default file extension for SSIs is 
.shtml, which again can be changed in the server's configuration.

P

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RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?

2005-12-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Al Sparber
 
 From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Please, no more silly statements like that. This is the Web Standards
 Group. To take it a step further, the html coding can never be table
 based. That's hacking, not coding.
 
 ---
 
 I hope you are joking.

Al, maybe Christian's wording was a bit brusque, but looking at the facts:

a) the standard clearly states Tables should not be used purely as a means to 
layout document content http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html - this 
makes the use of tables for layout pretty much a practice contrary to the 
standard (I have been known to call it a perversion of the standard, myself)
b) this list is for the Web Standards Group

True, from a pragmatic (as in need to support older browsers) point of view 
table based layouts are sometimes a necessary evil, but from a standards point 
of view Christian is right, IMHO.

P

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RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?

2005-12-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Are tables unauthorized?
 I never said that tables are meant for design. But even by w3.org
 standards they are  used for displaying tabular data .

Tabular data is, of course, a completely different matter. Using tables
is of course the best, most semantic way to present that sort of
information. In fact, any attempts at recreating a table, but just
with spans, divs and similar, is a futile, nay illogical exercise, as
the end result can never have the same level of explicit association
and relationship between the various data cells and the headings.

But I can see how the thread starter's question seemed to imply a
complete site layout, rather than tabular data specifically.

P

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RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?

2005-12-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Al Sparber

 I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word 
 should. 
 Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a 
 suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are 
 obligatory :-)

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective RECOMMENDED, mean that there
   may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
   particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
   carefully weighed before choosing a different course.

So yes, compatibility with older browsers would be one of those valid
reasons...but ignoring a particular item to me means going against/outside
of the standard/specification, thus hacking/perverting. Maybe just me
being pedantic (me? never!) ;-)


 What I am saying is that they are not the opposite of CSS.

But CSS is the de-facto preferred way of defining layout of (X)HTML
documents, and using tables for layout is a case of ignoring a particular
item in the HTML spec.

Ah well, it probably does come down to the interpretation of how strong
a recommendation should really is.

P

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RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?

2005-12-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Bob Schwartz

 I've found the need to use one table as a base layout because 
 I still  
 cannot get a div to expand in height (no height defined) to 
 incompass  
 its nested content as a table cell does.

If your nested content is positioned absolutely, then there is
currently no plain vanilla way to get the div to expand.
If your nested content is floated, you can use a clearing element
(with clear: left|right|both; as appropriate) as the last item
in the div.

P

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RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?

2005-12-12 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Bob Schwartz

 Couldn't  the if floated solution be considered a hack? :-}
 
 It is starting to sound as if my reasons for using one table 
 once-and- 
 awhile are still valid and that there are still some height issues  
 with divs.

If you're floating or absolutely positioning things, a table cell
won't help you either. Are you just after an equivalent of

td align=center 

which would equate to something like

div#container { text-align: center; } /* for IE */
div#container whatever { margin: 0 auto; width: whatever; text-align: left; )

?

As aleady noted on this thread, centering does not necessarily
need floating in a CSS world...

P

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RE: [WSG] UK Government Web standards - IE and serving issues...

2005-12-02 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Cameron Edwards

 Following some of the very interesting UK .gov mails of late, 
 I've been
 involved in a fierce debate about serving XHTML 1.0 STRICT either as
 application/xhtml+xml or text/html, content negotiation and the like -
 whether, in fact, the world is ready for XHTML etc

Hmm...that old chestnut...right, my current view:

A large part of the world is ready for XHTML served as application/xhtml+xml,
but IE isn't (and won't, even in version 7), and neither are older browsers
which may still be in use (particularly in Govt and Education). So, by
just using application/xhtml+xml you are excluding any user agents that don't
know what to do with it right from the start (imagine your grandmother with
her IE6 going to her local council website - after you finally got her to use
the interweb - to find information on some opening times or whatever, only
to be presented with a Open / Save as... dialog).

Add to that the draconian error handling of application/xhtml+xml aware user
agents...one unescaped character or br instead of br/ and the entire
house of cards fall apart. Yes, you should have systems etc in place to ensure
that this sort of thing doesn't happen (e.g. if you have content authors, give
them an XHTML compliant editing environment, and run any external source such
as integrated news feeds through a validator and fix them on the fly), but
stuff can slip through in the most unusual of places.

Although heavily frowned upon, you can use text/html (it's a SHOULD NOT rather
than a MUST NOT) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/
The use of 'text/html' for XHTML SHOULD be limited for the purpose of rendering
on existing HTML user agents, and SHOULD be limited to [XHTML1] documents which
follow the HTML Compatibility Guidelines.

Content negotiation, if done properly, works as an acceptable fallback mechanism
to deliver XHTML 1.0 to HTML user agents.

Of course, for the last two points, there is a fundamental philosophical issue
that HTML user agents will see your XHTML as broken HTML...but off hand I can't
remember if this causes any *actual* issues or if it's just a but in theory
we're doing a bad thing kind of deal.

With all of the above points many will ask: *why* do you need to actually use
XHTML? There is no practical gain from the user perspective in using
HTML compatible XHTML, not mixed with any other X languages, over simply going
for HTML 4.01 Strict (and avoiding the use of attributes/elements that have
been deprecated in XHTML). One of the only situations I came across was when I
recently needed to run an existing page through XSLT to turn it into something 
else
... I couldn't have run an HTML 4 page through the transform (as noted on 
another
recent thread here, I believe). The counter argument here would obviously be
that the XHTML document should not be the final repository of information, that 
there
should be a generic XML file which is then transformed to HTML 4.01 and any 
other
required format. Ho hum...

Sorry...hope my slightly twisty arguments and stream of consciousness type
ramblings made some kind of sense...

Patrick

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RE: [WSG] UK Government Web standards - IE and serving issues...

2005-12-02 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Daisy

 Could we drop the sexist (it's never a grandfather!), ageist digs at 
 people who simply had the misfortune to be born 10, 20, 50 
 years too early?

Fair enough, my sincere apologies. In my defence, the example was actually
based on a real life example from a colleague of mine.

Replace my previous statement with something non-gender/non-age
specific phrase to signify users who may have a average computer skills
and are not tech savvy.

Patrick

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political correctness (was RE: [WSG] UK Government Web standards - IE and serving issues...)

2005-12-02 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Lachlan Hunt

 I'll be sure to make sure all my future examples use 
 non-technologically inclined, gender indeterminent homo sapien 
 instead.  Sure it's a mouthful, but we mustn't be sexist.

You can go overboard on political correctness, certainly...but Daisy's
comment is very valid in my opinion. And yes, my original reply was
(uncharacteristically for me) devoid of sarcasm.

P

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N���.�Ȩ�X���+��i��n�Z�֫v�+��h��y�m�쵩�j�l��.f���.�ץ�w�q(��b��(��,�)උazX����)��

the basics of Firefox (was RE: [WSG] BBC E-mail: Overhaul for Firefox web browser)

2005-12-01 Thread Patrick Lauke



Welcome to the Firefox support list...aeh...

Anyway, the installation block has been in Firefox for ages (at least 
since 0.9, I think). Did you then actually click the "Edit Options" button, like 
it says right there? Can't be more explicit than that...

Patrick

  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al 
  KendallSent: 01 December 2005 11:18To: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] BBC E-mail: Overhaul 
  for Firefox web browser
  I've used Firefox as my defualt browers for some time now and 
  wouldn't go back. Recently I changed to Thunderbird for my 
  e-mails. But having just downloaded the latest versions i'm 
  getting frustrated with Firefox and trying to install a new theme. 
  If i click on install I get an error bar pop up saying that Software 
  Installation is disabled (see attached img). I've changed all the 
  settings I can find without sucess. Then I tried right click on 
  the install link, downloaded it and then slected tools/menu themes but not 
  luck there. Not recongnised. Thunderbird works fine that 
  way. CheersAl


RE: [WSG] firefox 1.5 is official

2005-11-30 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Artemis

 the snow falls more smoothly in FF 1.5.

Firefox 1.5 - now with even smoother snow!

Now that's a new marketing angle... :)

P

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RE: [WSG] FF1.5 and Web Dev. T/B

2005-11-30 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Stuart Sherwood

 Outline selected isn't working properly for me either.
 
 Stephen Stagg wrote:
 
  Is it just me or does the ‘Disable Images’ option on the Web 
  Developers Toolbar not work with FF1.5?

Did you do a clean install (with a fresh profile) or an upgrade? Sometimes, 
although it shouldn't happen, an upgrade can leave some rubbish behind that 
prevents things from working 100%.

P

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RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-18 Thread Patrick Lauke
 
 Rick Faaberg

 On 11/18/05 2:16 AM James Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 sent this out:
 
  I think part of the problem here is that

 You have many valid thoughts, and you express them well. :-)

So what, most of the ramblings of Geoff and I posted were invalid
and badly expressed? ;)

Nah, just pulling your leg. Glad to see more people jumping in on
the conversation.

P

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RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Geoff Deering

 Okay, so if this was implemented in user agents, what would be your 
 educated estimate of percentage of users who would configure this and 
 therefore avoid this problem of interpreting the incorrect 
 state of form 
 controls?

I'd estimate it to be roughly the same as the percentage of users that have 
reconfigured their OS to use different default colours which would make them 
get confused by *judiciously* styled form controls.

Patrick

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RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Geoff Deering

 I'd estimate it to be roughly the same as the percentage of 
 users that have reconfigured their OS to use different 
 default colours which would make them get confused by 
 *judiciously* styled form controls.

 And what percentage of users that access those web pages would you 
 expect that to be?

You tell me...as they're the ones that you mentioned as a group
that would potentially have problems with designers styling form
controls in the first place, if I recall correctly...

 it just says it changes the background color, because this is
 under the control of the custom settings of the users desktop

Anyway, I think we've bored the rest of the WSG list enough with
this fundamental philosophical difference. You advocate not
styling form controls at all to avoid any potential problems;
I say that judicious styling, combined with more refined and obvious
browser controls (it should be fairly easy to find the overrides, not
buried under 3-4 levels of options), plus possibly alternate
style sheets / site preferences, should not be a major problem as
long as designers are made aware of the potential problems and
don't just make arbitrary design choices (which anybody who calls
hHimself a designer shouldn't anyway). There's probably no way to
get our two views closer, so I'll agree to disagree once again :)

P

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RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-16 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Geoff Deering

 Secondly, by this recommendation you are actually addressing the flip 
 side of the problem I am trying to address.
 
 The case you are addressing here is
 1) A recommendation of how to deal with styles that may 
 conflict with a 
 form element that is in an activated state.
 2) What I was addressing was dealing with styles that may 
 conflict with 
 a form element that is in a non activated state.

Aeh...I don't see how recommending that users should have the ability to 
override the designer's style suggestions if they're proving to be confusing 
only addresses 1 and not 2.

 Either way, that these recommendation could be feasible in 
 practice, is 
 for the functions within the user agent being able to detect at least 
 two conditions;
[...]
 I can't see how this type of functionality will ever be added 
 to a user 
 agent because it goes against the fundamental interface principles of 
 OSs.  The WAI/UAAG would come under scrutiny if they did 
 this.  And with 
 all the bugs and unimplemented recommendations in user agent 
 development, I can't see this ever seeing the light of day.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but this functionality *already exists* in user agents 
(although it's a tad on the crude side, I'm hoping to see a more granular 
control)

As for UAAG, this is an implementation of guideline 4 Ensure user control of 
rendering
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-USERAGENT/guidelines.html#gl-user-control-styles
Ensure that the user can select preferred styles (e.g., colors, size of 
rendered text, and synthesized speech characteristics) from choices offered by 
the user agent. Allow the user to override author-specified styles and user 
agent default styles.

Are we now talking completely across purposes?

Patrick

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RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-15 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Geoff Deering

 The problem is that web designers are now implementing designs that 
 convey meaning to form controls, that they are not intending 
 to imply in their design,

Which, again, is a sign of a bad designer, and a problem that should be solved 
by educating the designer, not simply saying that inputs should not be styled. 
A far more open recommendation would be along the lines of feel free to style 
form controls, but ensure that you maintain clear and unequivocal visual clues 
as to the type, state, etc of the individual controls, in sympathy with system 
defaults and user expectations.

 this will degrade the user experience because of purely visual 
 design degrading the inherent meaning of a standard interface between 
 user and form element state.

Carefully considered, as opposed to purely visual, design (and yes, there IS 
a difference, despite the general feeling evident in certain factions of the 
WAI that all design is just bad) has its place in enhancing and visually 
integrating form controls in an overall site design.

P

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RE: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Patrick Lauke
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I think it depends on 1) whether 
 it's important that the news scroller be
 accessible by search engines

...or, you know...*actual people* trying to use the site...

P

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RE: [WSG] hover div fill query

2005-11-14 Thread Patrick Lauke
 ivanovitch

 The demo page is at http://imeet.com.au/aa2/ - it's cut right backto
 highlight my problem. Ignore the content, and the site URL

 I'm trying to find a way to make blocks of text in a div (item) to
 display the hover background for the entire div, and not just the
 linked text. 

Adding

.item a { display: block; }

to your stylesheet solved it for me (in Firefox anyway, not tested in anything 
else)

Patrick

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RE: [WSG] CSS and PHP

2005-11-14 Thread Patrick Lauke
 designer

 I'm new to PHP/mySQL and I'm finding that some peculiar things 
 happen, such as /body and /html appear in the middle of the code. 

Difficult to know without seeing a URL and the associated PHP code.
Sound like an error in the PHP to me, though...

 $myurl=testdate.php?houseID=$housenamechangeID=$changeover;

 causes problems in that the generated pages don't validate: the 
 ampersands seem to confuse the validator.

As with any other XHTML,  needs to be encoded as amp;

$myurl=testdate.php?houseID=$housenameamp;changeID=$changeover;

 Or am I overtired and making a mess of things?

Possibly :)

P

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RE: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?

2005-11-01 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Seona Bellamy

 I know that there were some really good articles floating around on
 the list a while back when someone was asking how to sell web
 standards to clients.

MACCAWS is fairly nice http://www.maccaws.org/kit/

Just to give my GBP0.02 on the issue, I usually (unless clients
specifically enquire) just say that I follow current best practices
in terms of web standards and accessibility

P
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RE: [WSG] Listing images vertically

2005-10-25 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Jad Madi

 I would like to know whats the standards way to list images Vertical
 and Horizental
 is there anything against using
 img src= alt= /br /img src= alt= / for the 
 vertical listing?

You've used the magic word twice already in your question...if you're
listing, that would suggest that you'd want a list...

ul
liimg ... //li
liimg ... //li
...
/ul

P
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RE: [WSG] Link behavior

2005-10-21 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Bruce

 I should add the site is http://www.bkdesign.ca

 My links in my sidebar on a new main site I am doing are underlined.
 But the underline starts someplace in the middle of the link, not at the 
 beginning.???

Don't ask me why (though I suspect it's because a is an inline element, so 
applying padding
to the top/bottom is creating some confusion), but the culprit seems to be the 
padding
applied to #sidebar a

Change padding: 3px 0px; to just padding: 0; and the underline works properly 
again.

Patrick
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RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-11 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Townson, Chris

 (I think Patrick might have been making a point
 earlier that logos might come under the category of 'illustration')

 The cons:
 - I think that something that is text (i.e. the company name) 
 gets marked up
 as an image

I would argue (without sounding too much like a marketeer or graphic
designer) that a logo (particularly if it's not just just text in
a specific typeface, but also includes swooshes, ticks, whatver) 
is more than just a visual representation of text,
in the same way that a head and shoulders passport photo of a person is
not just a visual representation of the person's name - and nobody would
hopefully argue that my photo should be marked up as my name and then image
replaced with the photo. It's part of the company's identity, and as such
is content - to a certain extent anyway.

Patrick
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RE: [WSG] DW 8 standards

2005-10-10 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Jad Madi

 is there any good reviews of Dreamweaver 8 and web standards? do you
 recommend using it to achieve standards compliant sites?
 any advantages/disadvantages?

Apparently it's quite good. I'd recommend having a look at
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/dreamweaver-8-standards
(and the book that this is taken from, 
http://www.sitepoint.com/books/dreamweaver1/ )

Patrick
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RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-10 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Townson, Chris

 b) You always have a sensible H1 for which all H2s are 
 genuine subheadings.

and what, h1img src=logo.jpg alt=Company name //h1
is not genuine?

Patrick
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RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-10 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Townson, Chris

 This would be due to the point about indexicality I mentioned.

This would be the point where I'd say the whole discussion on semantics
risks disappearing up it own behind...no offense.
You want to do web design, eh? Well, get onto the semiotics and linguistics
course for the next 10 years and then we'll talk about it...

 Ideally, a heading is something which describes and 
 encapsulates that which
 comes thereafter. Because an logo is indexical, it alone 
 (usually) describes
 nothing - it requires a context for that.

I'd say it defines that what follows belongs to the entity identified
by said logo...but I think we may end up in rather philosophical
discussions here and lose touch with reality ;)

 However, in response to that, I would ask:
 Is an image tag the correct way (semantically) to mark-up that text?

A company's identity is more than just its name. The logo, the typeface used,
the colours, all play an integral part, imho. Hence an image seems to me
the best compromise (until we get sophisticated mechanisms like SVG to work
consistently in all browsers).

 I can see your point and 
 wouldn't want
 to be total pedant on the issue :D

Still good to have a principled discussion though...makes our
lives as standardistas soo much more mysterious to the outside world ;)

P
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RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-10 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Townson, Chris

 I agree with your point here completely. However, in 
 pragmatic (;)) terms,
 with current technology, text is just the only solution which conveys
 meaning to _all_ users (not just those using graphical 
 browsers on a desktop
 PC)

The only problem with having an image of a short piece of text, with proper
alt, comes when users need to resize the text, granted. Apart from that,
an image with proper alt is just as good to non graphical browsers. There
is also the argument that, once users have such low vision that they require
screen magnification, even bitmapped images don't necessarily look worse
than normal screen magnified text, as even with many current magnification
software solutions the software simply blows up the frame buffer (i.e. pixels)
once you go over a certain size, if I remember correctly...

But yeh...it's maybe not 100% ideal, but it isn't intrinsically bad either.
Let's agree to disagree though :)

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[WSG] Ian Lloyd interviews Matt May

2005-10-07 Thread Patrick Lauke
Apologies for cross posting:

Interview with Matt May
http://www.accessify.com/2005/10/interview-with-matt-may.asp


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RE: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac

2005-09-21 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Golding, Antony

 Try adding the 'onclick' code into an 'onkeypress' entry also...

However, in Firefox - and, if I recall correctly, Mozilla (Seamonkey) as
well - a tab also counts as a keypress. Therefore, simply tabbing to the
link and attempting to tab to the next one will trigger the onkeypress
event. In this case, the user starts tabbing, and all of a sudden the
print dialog comes up...

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RE: [WSG] ol displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

2005-09-21 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Daniel Nitsche

 There is something on this very topic in the WCAG:
 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#lists

And the clincher on that still is
Until either CSS2 is widely supported or user agents
allow users to control rendering of lists through other means,
authors should consider providing contextual clues in
unnumbered nested lists.

Another consideration is also that this seems to me, in this
particular case, to contradict

6.1 Organize documents so they may be read without style
sheets. For example, when an HTML document is rendered
without associated style sheets, it must still be possible
to read the document.

If the numbering is set via CSS2, then without an associated
style sheet the numbering won't match (if, for instance, you're
doing a table of contents with the numbering reflecting the
number given to sections/headings).

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RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com

2005-09-21 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Rimantas Liubertas

 Maybe just throw 
 the info and leave
 all the rest for the users to control? Paint it yourself style of web.

Oh, and incidentally, that seems to be what some people on the WWW Style
list (Orion being the loudest proponent) would like to see in the future
*shudder*

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Sep/0105.html

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RE: [WSG] The Big Lie about CSS

2005-09-19 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Marco van Hylckama Vlieg

 One can either 
 manipulate the way
 output looks by dynamically changing the CSS or by 
 dynamically changing
 the HTML output. I prefer the latter to be honest.

But the question is: why do you prefer it? Just gut feeling,
or any valuable/measurable reason?
Also: of course, if you have dynamically generated pages,
template driven CMSs etc, it's easy to change the HTML output.
However, for those still publishing sites by hand, without
an automated system behind it, a change in the markup on all
pages would require a complete re-upload of the entire site.
Thinking about systems like Blogger where (from what I
gather...not using it myself) individual blog entries are
actually written out as complete HTML files, a change to
the markup on all pages would require a complete rebuild of
the site as well.

Patrick
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RE: [WSG] The Big Lie about CSS

2005-09-19 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Tom Livingston

 I disagree. span style=color:#f00;some_text/span is puttiing  
 presentation in the markup. class=red is still a class that can be  
 changes in the sheet. In my mind, the word red in this case 
 is just a word, not a color.

It's just a word, but it does have presentational associations. Sure,
to a machine it doesn't make a difference, and it's not breaking any
technical standards, but it makes maintenance and generally working
with pages highly confusing. Same for classnames such as left/right
or bigbrownbox.

See also:

http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/goodclassnames

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