[WSG] Test

2007-12-05 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi,

The duplicate posts are coming from a Globe IT server in the Netherlands.
I have blocked the IP address 217.148.170.240

So we'll see if this message comes back...

Please don't reply to this post.

Peter Firminger



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[WSG] Netscape 9

2007-06-06 Thread Peter Firminger
In case you hadn't heard:

http://www.avinio.blogspot.com/2007/06/netscape-navigator-90-released-first.
html

http://browser.netscape.com/

P



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RE: [WSG] what cms system [CLOSED AGAIN]

2006-01-26 Thread Peter Firminger



Please keep CMS discussion to the CMS list. Log into the WSG 
website and adjust your mail list preferences please.

This thread was closed a week ago.

Peter

  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  AlexorbitSent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:02 PMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] what cms 
  system
  hey buddy, joomla its the first CMS to apply a valid 
  xhtml+css plus Ajax admin functions... try do get it. http://joomla.orghere you can find a lot 
  of cms www.opensourcecms.comcheers
  2006/1/18, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  hello 
all,just a quick question,What one of these cms systems should i 
use?BTW im not a 
programmer.DrupalGeeklogMambo 
Open 
SourcePHP-Nuke 
phpWCMSphpWebSitePost-NukeSiteframeTYPO3XoopsThese 
are the options I can automatically install with a hosting package. 
Should i use one of these or try and setup text pattern on my 
own?-bestkvnmcwebn**The 
discussion list for 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor 
some hints on posting to the list  getting 
help**-- 
  Alex 
  Freire de AquinoGerente de projetos Orbitcom consultoria em 
  TecnologiaMiami Office [Orlando] +1 305 200-0736 Ext. 9157 UK 
  London0870 068 1966São Paulo +55 11 6864 1898Mobile +55 11 
  8514 3628http://www.orbitcom.com.br 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]---


RE: [WSG] .htm include file into another .htm

2006-01-18 Thread Peter Firminger
This thread is really off topic so let's leave it here, but to correct 
something (sorry Lachlan)...

This works on IIS as well, as long as it's a .shtml or .shtm file to tell IIS 
to parse it for any required processing (like an include) before serving it 
(unless your host doesn't allow them). ICYDK: IIS is Microsoft's Internet 
Information Server.

I tested all three you mentioned and they all worked on my IIS server (Win2k).

1.   !--#include virtual=/included.htm --
2.   !--#include virtual=included.htm --
3.   !--#include file=included.html --

P

 They're called server side includes and they work on Apache.  They've
 got nothing to do with frames.  I don't believe they're in
 any official
 standard, Apache is the only server I know of that implements
 them like
 that (though, I don't know much at all about other servers).


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RE: Re; Re: [WSG] br the correct use.

2006-01-13 Thread Peter Firminger
The much maligned br element is essential in our work. Sometimes we're not 
just doing poetry and addresses.

Take for example the archive page of this very message (the one I'm replying 
to).
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=C69ACE78-BB9A-910B-E6CC1A4A59BDF099

How else would I accurately display Lachlan's example below without br. I 
don't agree that pre/pre is the answer because this may well force the 
page into breaking due to width. Pre is pretty powerful and can break a layout 
very quickly if something unexpected is forced into it.

_

The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong:

div
paragraph 1br
br
paragraph 2br
br
paragraph 3
/div

In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive brs,
_


(here it is in case you don't want to look at the archive)

_

The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong:br /
br /
lt;divgt;br /
paragraph 1lt;brgt;br /
lt;brgt;br /
paragraph 2lt;brgt;br /
lt;brgt;br /
paragraph 3br /
lt;/divgt;br /
br /
In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive 
lt;brgt;s, 
br /
_

I could replace br /br / with /pp (and I usually do... There was a 
reason I didn't in this case but I can't recall now)

Remember, we are not marking this up by hand, we have to make sure it always 
works no matter what is thrown into it as content. I get the feeling that a 
lot of the time people focus too much on what is hand coded in static HTML 
pages (and therefore very predictable) when making assumptions like br is 
bad and even including hr as bad.

Broaden your view to what may be churned out of a CMS or other server-based 
system (a web-mail interface etc.)

A line break is semantic in my view. In the case of the aformentioned page, I 
believe it is very much like the poetry example. I'm expected to display the 
email the same as it was written (within the limitations of the page 
boundaries).

In this context, any arguments?

P


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[WSG] Vacation messages

2005-12-22 Thread Peter Firminger
Folks,

If you are going away and need to set a vacation message, please remember to 
log into the WSG site and take yourself off the WSG and CMS mailing lists 
until you return. Otherwise each person that sends mail to the list gets your 
vacation message and in some cases they go to the list.

As an incentive, I'll be deleting memberships that have set vacation messages 
without suspending themselves from the list(s). It's a self-serve system. 
Please don't write asking us to manage your membership for you.

To change your list preferences, go to 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_edit.cfm and select No mail from 
the WSG list and No mail from the CMS list.

Regards,

Peter Firminger

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[WSG] The closed XML editor thread (Newcomers and Web Standards)

2005-12-04 Thread Peter Firminger
This closed discussion is quite welcome and appropriate to continue on the CMS 
list.

If you are not on this list, log in to http://webstandardsgroup.org/ and 
follow the link Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions then 
select the Full CMS list radio button to participate.

Regards,

Peter Firminger

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RE: [WSG] To the admins

2005-11-19 Thread Peter Firminger
Absolutely, way off and it started over 2 weeks ago. Stop now!

P

 IMHO yours and therefor mine
 too, messages are
 OFF TOPIC right now.


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[WSG] List server commands

2005-11-05 Thread Peter Firminger
Folks,

Any of you that remember when this list server took commands via email,
please forget it ever happened.

The only way to edit your setting is to log in and set them on the website.

Even if you do manage to get a command to work, the next time the system
writes the subscription file from the member database (every time someone
joins, leaves or edits their settings), it will revert to your membership
settings.

Go to http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_edit.cfm and use your email
address and password to log in and select the lists and list-modes you
require. If you don't remember your password, use the Forgot Password?
form to retrieve it. Make sure you use the exact email address you initially
subscribed with, this may be different to the one the lists are sent to.

Please don't ask us to do it for you, it's a self-serve system. If you do
have trouble, the address to ask for help is [EMAIL PROTECTED], not the list
address.

Peter


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RE: [WSG] javascripts and standards [CLOSED]

2005-10-17 Thread Peter Firminger
Can we stop this discussion. The more we post the links to the list
discussing it the more they end up in mail-archive.com.

No it isn't an O'Reilly website. We all get it :)

It's like a send this to everyone you know virus warning email, becomes
the problem itself.

P


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RE: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5

2005-10-13 Thread Peter Firminger
But they may make your system vulnerable as they are not patched. There's a
very good reason Microsoft doesn't publish these for developers or anyone
else.

Not at all recommended on any machine you care about.

P

 Standalone versions of IE 4 and IE 5 are available at
 http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone. These will
 work even if you have a later version of IE installed.

 cheers,
 Geoff.


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RE: [WSG] IE team says no to hacks

2005-10-12 Thread Peter Firminger
If you've gone against all sane advice and used CSS hacks then you knew
exactly what you were in for with future browsers and potential problems.

I don't want to see an M$ bitch session develop here while Microsoft are
seemingly trying very hard do the right thing (at last). Obviously we have
to wait and see what the final release does.

At that point, I really hope you're (general) not going to charge your
customers if you have to fix up bugs (hacks) that you knowingly induced into
their websites if you didn't make it clear to them at the time that hacking
may require rectification in the future.

Sorry for the smug told you so, but many people including myself have made
this very clear over the whole life of WSG. You only have yourself to blame.

Peter

previously comment=I'm really sick of html emails on this list
It sounds more like they are taking a stand against the designers who tried
to work around those buggy problems. They aren't cleaning up their own act,
just making it harder to hack around them. IE 7 still has some of the quirky
implementations that make older versions of IE so difficult to design for.
/previously


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RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Peter Firminger
This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web
Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.

We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en)
people write out addresses.

It's part of the way we put text on a page, either with a pen, a thumbnail
dipped in tar or hitting (carriage-)return (a hangover from typewriters, aka
the Enter key) on a keyboard.

It's even still known as CR (carriage-return) or LF (line-feed) or both
(CRLF) within computer-based text terminology.

I know this metaphor has flaws. On a typewriter (excepting the later word
processing ones that were aware of the page size) you HAD to use a carriage
return or you'd go off the page. Same with a pen, you stop at the edge of
the paper and start a new line. But if I handwrite my address, I use line
breaks regardless of the width of the page.

No, it's not print (from a press or a pen) but we still need to follow the
same basics for the written word. I'm not talking about fontography, colour,
width of canvas (parchment/paper/screen) or positioning, these should be
separated from the content. They are akin to calligraphy in handwriting and
changing the ribbon colour (or ink) or the font on the piece of lead or the
golf ball on a typewriter. I'm talking about the basics of the written
word and they ARE semantic.

As for what a screen reader does, we're now talking about the spoken word
but I have never heard a screen reader say something like New line or
Line-feed when it encounters a brso it still works (if I'm wrong about
this please correct me).

A single br to force a line break is ok in this context.

brbr isn't (and never is). If you need two, mark it up correctly within
an appropriate block-level element (container).

P


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RE: ADMIN Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?

2005-09-27 Thread Peter Firminger
Big Thanks also to Thomas Marban from Austria who went to the trouble to set
up a WE05 Wiki.

http://futurefarm.net/we05/

Sorry, it only happened in the last 24 hours or so and we've been kinda busy
here setting everything up.

P


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot
 Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:52 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: ADMIN Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?

 In the interests of not boring the 95% of the list who aren't going,
 I've set up a Discuss thread.
 So thread closed, please, and go to
 http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/22.htm
 to comment and see what all the other attendees are doing :)

 Lea
 ~ yes, yes, I know I should have done this before I posted
 myself. Mea
 culpa!
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RE: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system [CLOSED]

2005-08-16 Thread Peter Firminger
There is a CMS list for this discussion. Please log into the WSG site and
add it to your lists in your login details.

Peter


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[WSG] Announcing: Happy Clog!

2005-08-12 Thread Peter Firminger
For our members in the Netherlands (though I'm sure most of you are aware 
already)...

http://kurafire.net/log/archive/2005/08/07/happy-clog


Regards,

Peter Firminger

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RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue

2005-08-11 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi Paul,

 Keep in mind that not many people here will want to help you
 sort out a
 design that uses tables for layout.

 Are we not being a bit classist?

I don't think so. This is from the guidelines:

---
We encourage people to ask for help on the list. One of the primary goals of
this group is to help members move towards building sites that are standards
compliant, so we do not want to stop members posting questions of this
nature to the list - in fact, we encourage it!
---

The site in question heavily uses tables, not just for simple layout issues
like multiple columns. It has a lot of other issues like px based font sizes
and even me with decent eyesight have difficulty reading some of the text
with no option to scale it up (in IE). There are some convention issues in
there. I strongly suggest thinking about naming conventions. Never make
class or ID names the same as element names (e.g. this site uses .body).

What I was trying to do was give the member possible reasons why no-one had
answered the post (they may have off list but we don't know that).

I looked at it at the time, hit the validator and closed the browser, I
assume others did the same. Later (as no-one had answered) I looked again
(in the code this time) and found a site that it will be very difficult to
diagnose due to the way it has been built.

I don't think I'm classist at all, if I go to help you with a problem and
you haven't done the basics to make it easy for me to help you, I don't have
the time spend wading through it. Who knows (without spending an hour on it)
what effect the 125 errors has on the issue in question. If it was using
tables to simply sort out a column issue or similar I wouldn't have
mentioned it.

I was trying to be gentle and still provide some level of help. I guess we
missed that train.

My apologies to Jeff as this has gone a bit deeper than I wanted it too and
maybe I should have handled it all off-list.

P


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[WSG] Sydney WSG Meeting - Now Tuesday 30 August

2005-08-10 Thread Peter Firminger
Rather than organise two events in a week and have Lisa Herrod do her 
presentation twice, the September Sydney WSG meeting has been combined with 
the Web Essentials Free Briefing so it is now to be held on TUESDAY 30 August 
in the theatre at the Museum. Also note the earlier start time of 6:00pm for 
6:30pm.

Please see http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event37.cfm

The upside is that there will be more in the presentations with the addition 
of the ever popular David Woodbridge and Robert Spriggs of the Royal Blind 
Society, the significantly better food and drinks are free, and you have a 
chance to win a free ticket to WE05!

RSVP is essential - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Regards,

Peter Firminger


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RE: [WSG] IE question - user style sheets

2005-08-04 Thread Peter Firminger
You have a usability/accessibility issue with the onChange event on the
style switcher. Take it out and add a button to submit it. Try NOT using
your mouse and tab through to that form instead, then try and arrow down and
you'll see the issue.

Even something like http://esrab.webboy.net/toolkit.cfm

P

 I'm using server-side scripts to switch Styles Sheets and keep user's
 preferences active:
 http://www.css-p.com/TNT/


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RE: [WSG] What not to do for colour blind users

2005-07-24 Thread Peter Firminger
For those that haven't seen it, the OzEmail page that James referred to is
http://homesite.service.ozemail.com.au/sidenav.html/help/systemstatus

To me the colour difference of the three ticks isn't distinguishable. I see
a tick and think, the service is fine. Bad use of both colour and
iconography. Any issue should have a cross rather than a tick to indicate a
problem. They did add the alt text following my complaints though so at
least I had some indication that the glass was half full.

Peter


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RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question

2005-07-23 Thread Peter Firminger



Are we done now?

Let me just say (as I wrote the offending line on the Max 
Design/Webboy sites) that I referred to ASP and not ASP.NET as not being a rapid 
development language (and I am right, it isn't... I used todo ASP sites). 


I really don't care what languages other people use, they all do 
the same thing essentially but some take less scripting than others. That par 
refers to whatWE do and whyWE use ColdFusion to do it(huge dev 
cost benefits for our customers). We turn down many job offers that specify PHP 
or ASP(.NET) as we could not quote competitively. That's just us. Not saying CF 
is better, just better for me.

As for CF output, take a look at the source of http://www.frogsaustralia.net.au/- 
totally CF driven from a custom-built CMS and (I think) very neat source 
code.

Now, so that this email isn't a total OT waste of time, a 
giggle...

Take a look at what http://www.content.com.au/claim to 
do as a businessand then look at the source code of the pages. 
Notone line of text to be seen! Not even a descriptive page title or any 
metadata whatsoever. I love it! 

No comments on this please, it isn't worth discussing. We can just 
feel superior in our collective wisdom.

P



  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  csslistSent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:20 AMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net 
  general question
  Well no, what you say now isnt wrong but 
  what you said before certainly was.Before you basically implied the cfm 
  created bad markup and now you say it's the developer which is what it should 
  be." I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in 
  respect to web standards compliance"Thats not true 
  at all, not even close.But I totally agree that it's all in how the 
  developer does that makes it go :)
  
  From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, 
  July 23, 2005 2:11 PMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net 
  general question
  
  Er, 
  wwwhat??
  
  If you use the 
  controls provided by MS (validation controls etc), then yes, the code is junk. 
  But who in their right mind uses those anyway? Who has ever used those? That 
  aside, how else does .NET mangle code? I am sorry but that was not a good 
  reply. I have built sites in XHTML STRICT/CSS that uses .NET code behind and 
  VALIDATES 100%. If you are in the habit of dragging and dropping your websites 
  into existence then no, it won’t validate, but then I suspect it won’t 
  validate in any language.
  
  At the end of the day 
  it is down to the developer, their lack of knowledge and sloppy coding which 
  makes a language produce sloppy code. 
  
  Explain to me how 
  that is wrong.
  
  W
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslistSent: 23 July 2005 18:27To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net 
  general question
  
  what?thats a big 
  load of BS!what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling 
  your code?if you do a simple google search you will find out the what 
  mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is 
  what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at 
  frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your 
  code).coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout 
  code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your 
  pages.Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer 
  ;)most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which 
  you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to "unmangle" 
  what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to 
  anyone!!!"The code I have seen being churned out 
  lookslike it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space 
  etc. "then you are comparing what 
  you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, 
  those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple 
  solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with 
  cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the 
  whitespace."ASP.NET does not produce code that is 
  capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric 
  Meyer's Picking a 
  Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you 
  can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce 
  XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning 
  (all right, fudging)."
  
  
  
  From: 
  "wayne" 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 
  PMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net 
  general questionI think you will find that coldfusion 
  makes life harder in respect toweb standards compliance. The code I have 
  seen being churned out lookslike it has gone 

RE: SPAM: RE: [WSG] Longhorn Avalon - seismic shift for web standards?

2005-07-14 Thread Peter Firminger
Now cut that out (smile or no smile)!

I use Windows machines exclusively and prefer to browse using IE as that's
what my main audience uses. I pick up many things that Russ on his non
Win/IE combination misses (not that he doesn't check but they are not his
defaults and things do slip through).

I'll check on the boutique browsers but until one of them gains the market
share, IE is the default target. Keep in mind that I am an application
developer, not a designer so I care little about the 'look', that's for the
designer to look after.

I am a huge standards advocate, but I'm also a realist that has real clients
with real audiences.

The previous comment was a good one.

 But, if you're in the business of building web apps that target a
specific platform.. :)

This reference to web applications could mean an Intranet Application
(known audience technology) for booking resources, filling in leave
applications, database editing, phone lists etc. or a CMS Administration
console or an online banking tool where you can specify (or test for) a
specific user_agent and design a really great application in that framework.

I often limit CMS Administration consoles to IE as I may well use an inline
HTML editor (an Ektron one for example) that invokes a dll on the client. In
my experience this is a lot more stable than Java applets and other stuff
that will allow stand-alone (non operating system-integrated) browsers to
use them.

Peter

 hmmmI smell Troll...

 You don't work for Microsoft do you David?

 :)


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RE: [WSG] help or web standards group?

2005-07-11 Thread Peter Firminger
I totally concur with Lea (which happens with amazing regularity).

We have discussed this matter in the past (along with creating online fora
to move some of the newbie stuff off the list) but the general consensus was
that this was and still is the best way to do it to cover all levels.

If you'd like to use a forum environment, take a look at the stuff over at
Port80 in Perth. http://www.port80.asn.au/forums/

Let's not complain about the lower-end traffic if we're not injecting the
higher-end topics ourselves.

So, let's talk about XML/XSLT, SVG, what's happening with AJAX etc.
(see http://www.w3.org/2005/07/05-tagmem-minutes.html#item03 for a thought
starter, at least to see some of the W3 process on emergence).

P

 I like the concept, but my experience of multiple lists for the one
 group is that posts are constantly made on the 'wrong' list, driving
 everyone mad, or some of the lists simply aren't used - look at this
 group.  Demand drove the creation of the CMS list, but its traffic is
 minimal.


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RE: [WSG] Image Thumnail Advice [THREAD CLOSED]

2005-07-02 Thread Peter Firminger



Ok, enough on 
that thanks. 

This is a 
'PhotoShop how to'rather thana Web Standards 
discussion.

Peter


RE: [WSG] Survey of Accessible Websites in New Zealand and Australia

2005-06-27 Thread Peter Firminger
Please please send these to the address mentioned ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) and
not to the list.

Bruce stated that he will post the report to the list when completed so we
don't need to see your responses.

Peter


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Re: [WSG] Will HTML be nicer to PHP than XHTML? [ADMIN]

2005-06-27 Thread Peter Firminger
We're pushing the OT limits with this thread.

I understand it's importance to some people but PHP is NOT a standard and we
don't want to go too much further into it here. Many list members don't use
PHP and this is just noise to them.

I'm not closing the thread but please limit your posts on this topic to only
crucial information that hasn't been said before.

If you move the thread to the CMS list you can go for it as hard as you like
without bothering designers and others that have no interest.

Peter


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RE: SPAM: RE: [WSG] Site check with a problem and something new

2005-06-14 Thread Peter Firminger
Hmmm...

 I don't have a certain answer, but I have a questions; Why are you
 trying to get your website to work on IE on a Mac?? (OS9)?? You know
 that IE on a mac has been ditched in the new OSX (Tiger). And
 Safari is
 the dominent Browser. You should have a message appear on
 your site for
 any users that are using MAC IE that says Download Firefox or Use
 Safari, don't use this piece of junk browser Just my 2 pence. It's a
 fair comment. Im sure others agree.

Absolutely not, you should be making your site accessible to everyone
regardless of which browser/os they use and if you can't make it work, make
sure it degrades gracefully.

Messages saying anything like that are entirely what web standards are
against.

Get FireBug? Get censored... Don't you dare tell me what browser to use.
would be my answer and you'd lose a customer. It may be okay for blogs and
personal sites but many of us do real business websites and there are still
people with old browsers that have money to spend or need access to
information (be it Government or any other information).

If we take your example above, why not tell everyone not using IE 6 on
Windows to go away and get the dominant browser/os?

The question was a perfectly legitimate one.

Peter


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RE: [WSG] WSG Meetings for the rest of us

2005-06-10 Thread Peter Firminger
Sorry folks been busy so this has gone unanswered so far by the listkeepers.

First of all, we just hit 2000 members! That is a moving target though and
it may take a week to stabilise over that figure.

Also, Let me take the time to thank our Core group of members, the people
that run the meetings and helped set up WSG in the early days. They do a
heap of work in their own areas and keep a close eye on the list and it's
many little trip-ups. Be nice to them, they're working hard for you and get
nothing but my heartfelt thanks in return. Want to be a WSG core member?
Start a meeting group!

Which brings me back to the topic.

Whenever I ask about setting up meetings (outside Australia) I get very
little response, so I don't initiate anything any more. It's entirely up to
you to start the process.

So here's what you have to do.

Log in to the members section of the WSG site and scroll down. Follow the
link City totals
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_view.cfm#totals

Look for your city and those nearby. Remember, we generally have no idea
about your geography (and whether Boston and Cambridge MA are close enough
to each other for example). You may want to scroll up and look in the list
above that as that may be easier to see everyone in your area.

Side note: This is why we ask you to be general about your area/city in your
login details... Good time to check what others in your area have done and
change yours to the most common format, London people I particularly mean
you. The list is sorted by Country, State, City.

If there are more than 8 people near you, you have a chance (and by no means
a guarantee) of setting up a regular meeting. We actually find 20 is about
the right number. See suggested list below.

Let Russ and I know on info@webboy.net that YOU are interested in being a
group organiser, and that you have some ideas about a venue (preferably
free, with internet access and a projector), and what other cities in the
list are in close proximity and we will contact (BCC) the members in those
areas directly asking if they are interested and if we can give their
address to YOU the proposed organiser. You will probably need to have two
organisers so the second may also come out of that list.

In Australia, Russ and I (and sometimes John Allsopp) try very hard to make
an appearance at the first meeting to help out (as we are doing in Perth
this month and hopefully very soon in Canberra) but off-shore it's a little
difficult.

We will try our best to help. We have had some interest in Austin TX and
Sacramento CA but nothing has come of them yet (we need to give Sacramento
more time though, it was very recent).

Here's what I think are worth looking at (and again there may be well more
in these areas listed under different suburb names etc.):

42 - London England - UK  (Really no excuses here! Someone?)
31 - Perth WA - Australia (22nd June! Just 11 sleeps now... AND a weekend
for me in Margaret River)
25 - Canberra ACT - Australia (working on it and will probably be daytime
meetings for Gov audience)
18 - Chicago IL - USA
16 - San Francisco CA - USA
15 - Toronto Ontario - Canada (Come on Toronto... Beat the USA to the 1st
Nth American meeting)
14 - New York NY - USA (and there are more if you take in Brooklyn etc.)
13 - Copenhagen - Denmark
13 - Brighton East Sussex - UK
12 - Adelaide SA - Australia
12 - Dallas TX - USA
11 - Auckland - New Zealand
11 - Washington DC/VA/MD - USA
10 - Chennai Tamil Nadu - India
10 - Boston MA - USA
10 - Portland OR - USA
10 - Sacramento CA - USA (working on it)
10 - Seattle WA - USA
9  - Manchester Lancashire - UK
9  - Rio de Janeiro - Brasil
8  - Vancouver British Columbia - Canada
8  - Stockholm - Sweden
8  - Houston TX - USA
8  - Los Angeles CA - USA
8  - Philadelphia PA - USA

I don't believe you can pull it off at all with less than 8 but check the
list, I may have missed something obvious.

On the question of video...

It takes a lot of time to edit a presentation (to get screenshots in etc)
and then a lot of bandwidth to serve them up. For live streaming, you'll
need good bandwidth at the venue. We don't have that luxury.

There is also the issue of IP for the presenter (though I think that most
would probably agree to it), and then there is accessibility, transcriptions
etc. as previously mentioned on the list.

I would estimate 4-8 hours to produce a 40 min presentation (without
captions) that would end up at 160-400mb.

I really don't have time so I'm afraid that without significant corporate
sponsorship to hire someone or someone else doing it voluntarily, this isn't
likely (at least for Sydney). Other cities may prove me wrong, I know our
very competitive friends in Brisbane were looking into it.

Peter


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[WSG] RE: Possible Virus

2005-06-07 Thread Peter Firminger
Yeah thanks, we know. No need to repost it or send it to us. I'm trying to
find a solution that won't screw up a lot of member's filters.

Please just delete these if they continue. A word of advice. NEVER open any
attachment from this list. We don't allow attachments (it's in the
guidelines) so any attachment is probably a virus.

Peter


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[WSG] A test

2005-06-07 Thread Peter Firminger
I have just blacklisted the [EMAIL PROTECTED] address and this is to 
check that the list actually still works (as that is the list owner account).

Sorry, no other way to test it and this is the only solution I can think of 
without changing the address it's sent from which may affect the filters 
people use.

Fingers crossed!

Regards,

Peter Firminger

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+614 12932269
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[WSG] A test from the blocked address

2005-06-07 Thread Peter Firminger
Hopefully, this won't be seen...


Regards,

Peter Firminger

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RE: [WSG] problem with utf-8 page encoding

2005-06-05 Thread Peter Firminger



Hi Vaska,

You really need to give us the URL of the page that this occurs 
onso others can test it.

We also need to know os/ver and browser/ver it occurs on to 
emulate it.

Opening it as 
a local file is not a good test (unless the page is destined for a CD-ROM or 
Kiosk). These things can get complicated by the charset the server sends in the 
request header as well as the font specified in the CSS and what fonts are 
installed on your machine etc.Thus, the code snippet below really doesn't tell us 
much. 

Please try a 
version of your page in valid HTML 4.01 Transitional and see if the behaviour is 
the same. As you're not using an XML prologue (like ?xml version="1.0" 
encoding="utf-8"? ) in your XHTML page I wonder if the behaviouris an 
xml parser thing. May be way off with that as well. Just a 
thought.

Unicode isn't 
a simple fix-all solution. It makes it easy for simple things like European 
keyboard inputs (French, German, Spanish etc.) but once you get to the non-latin 
charsets it gets difficult.I don't believe (though I haven't read the docs 
for a while now) that all the characters required for a universal solution are 
included in UTF-8. From (distant) memory you have to go to something like UTF-16 
or UTF-32 to get anywhere near the number of characters required for all 
languages and I don't know that browser support is very good with those and I 
don't think they were even intended for web use.

Don't believe 
me though as I am certainly not an expert in the field and I am very rusty in my 
recollection, go and read the specs for yourself in your own context. There 
aremyriad resources on this subject online. Some of them listed in http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat18.cfm

Bottom line 
is that if you're doing Arabic or Chinese or Koreanetc. 
characters,you may still need to be conservative and do it in a 
basic way like http://www.gt.nsw.gov.au/information/chinese.htmusing 
something specific like meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; 
charset=big5" lang="zh" and maybe (I have been led to believe) suggest a 
decent default font family for this charset.

No need to apologise 
about using tables. It really bugs me that "tables" have such a bad name round 
here that people feel they have to apologise even when using them correctly. 
Yes, you'll probably be ridiculed if you use them for page layout but don't feel 
even the slightest bit bad about using them for their intended 
purpose.

Peter


This 
  is my header...!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 
  Transitional//EN" 
  "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"html 
  xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang='en' 
  lang='en'headtitlePage 
  title/titlemeta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; 
  charset=utf-8" /td width='60%' class='cell-doc' 
  xml:lang='zh' lang='zh'~{6(~} ~{;[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~{4N~}~{Q!Pc~}/td


RE: [WSG] Regarding foreign languages

2005-06-02 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi Vaska,

 Am I allowed to ask about non-CSS things here?

WSG is not just a CSS list. Your question is entirely appropriate as it is
dealing with firm Web Standards.

 In particular, I'm trying to deal with how to handle inputs
 of Chinese
 characters via some forms.  What I'm wondering is...

One thing you need to watch is what the application or web server is
expecting from the form. In ColdFusion MX there are times when you have to
tell the ColdFusion server to expect a certain encoding from form posts.

E.g. cfscriptsetencoding(form, UTF-8);/cfscript

I don't know whether PHP and other server-side languages have this need or
whether they work it out themselves. Not that I want to start that
discussion here (as server-side technology is off topic) but as a concept,
it may well be part of the problem and I just wanted to add it to your debug
process.

Peter


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RE: [WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified advert solution [MOVE TO CMS LIST]

2005-05-31 Thread Peter Firminger
This is really a topic for the CMS list. Please carry on the conversation
there.

Regards,

Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Nicol
 Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:09 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified
 advert solution

 Hello everyone,

 I am seraching for a standards-compliant classified ad solution.

 The best non-compliant solution I've found is this:
 http://www.geodesicsolutions.com/products/classifieds/classifi
 eds_enterprise.htm

 Does anyone know of a standards-compliant solution that is
 comparable to this?

 Cheers
 David
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RE: [WSG] CMS list archive?

2005-05-24 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi tee,

As you've found both lists are bundled together in the local archive, but
the CMS list is separate in mail-archive.com (which Russ Weakley redesigned
for them a while back btw):

http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/

Or (a little easier to remember)

http://www.mail-archive.com/cms@webstandardsgroup.org/

Regards,

Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee
 Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:48 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] CMS list archive?

 Hi Russ or Peter,

 Where can I get to CMS list archive on WSG website? I don't see it in
 mail-archive.com.

 I saw a couple of thread on 
 http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm after logged
 in, but it's
 hard to find related topic that I am interested in. It mix
 with WSG thread.

 Regards,

 tee

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RE: [WSG] mambo and web standards [MOVED TO CMS]

2005-05-17 Thread Peter Firminger
Absolutely correct Lawrence.

I (as a CMS developer) understand very well the need for standards compliant
systems and a place to discuss the issues. That is why encourage anyone that
is interested (and sadly, many developers are not) to join and use the
WSG-CMS list. Just log in to http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/ and select
it from the mail lists in your email preferences.

Please move this thread to that list for any further discussion so that
those who are not interested don't need to see the traffic, that is indeed
off-topic, on the mail WSG list.

Regards,

Peter


 It'd be better to discuss in depth on the WSG-CMS list (which I'm also
 on), but suffice to say web standards is an aim of Mambo..
 What that aim
 comprimises and how well it achieves it is more appropriate for the
 WSG-CMS list.


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RE: [WSG] Online payments [CLOSED]

2005-05-13 Thread Peter Firminger
Yeah WAY OT,

Please respond to Erwin off list.

This list only covers web standards, if the brief was bigger than that it
would explode and become unusable. There are no web standards involved in
server-side technologies and tasks like card processing.

We have a CMS list to discuss the output of these types of systems and how
to make them standards compliant. If this had been asked on the CMS list I
wouldn't have minded a bit. Erwin, I suggest you subscribe to it and ask the
question there.

Log into http://webstandardsgroup.org/members/ and change your email
preferences to receive that list.

If you want to discuss this issue (the thread closure) please write to
info@webboy.net and NOT the list. I will unsubscribe anyone discussing it on
list. It's not negotiable! We're trying to keep the noise down and this is
noise.

The Guidelines (that you all agreed to on joining) cover this very clearly.

What the list covers and does not cover

The mail list covers any topic associated with web standards including:

Implementing Web Standards - eg: technologies such as HTML, XHTML, CSS, DOM,
UAAG, RDF, XML
Discussing best practice in these technologies
Announcements of tools that can help build standards compliant sites
Accessibility and semantically correct markup
W3C specifications, drafts and proposals
Useful resources that promote knowledge in Web Standards
Site reviews and critiques
Assistance with aspects of web standards such as site checking, layout
issues etc.

The mail list does not cover:

Non-Web Standards related issues and support
Discussion of server-side scripting beyond that directly involved with Web
Standards
Discussion of content management/web publishing system issues beyond those
directly involved with Web Standards (there is a CMS list for that purpose,
see the resources section for details)
Detailed software support such as using a browser, installing a server,
installing any tools etc.
Product and service advertisements of a purely commercial nature
Employment opportunities

Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erwin Heiser
 Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 4:39 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: SPAM: [WSG] Online payments

 Hi all,
 Sorry if this is slightly OT.
 I¹m starting a website for a hotel and they would like to
 implement some
 kind of on-line reservation system with possible credit card
 payments. Since
 I have never done something like this before, are there any
 good (commercial
 or not) PHP-solutions available for this?
 Could I do this myself or do I have to call in a programmer?
 Any and all suggestions welcome...


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RE: [WSG] Privacy Statements - THREAD CLOSED

2005-05-09 Thread Peter Firminger
Goodbye!

P

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:23 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; russ - maxdesign
 Cc: Web Standards Group
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Privacy Statements - THREAD CLOSED


 Umm, exactly what planet are you on?

 Can you supply a valid reason why this is not something that
 should be
 either in
 or out of the standards (best practices) for site design?


 Quoting russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

  THREAD CLOSED
 
  Please reply to Leigh off-list. This is definitely
 off-topic - has nothing
  to do with web standards.
 
  If you have a problem with the closing of this thread,
 please do not post to
  the list. Instead, email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Thanks
  Russ
 
 
 
  Hi all
 
  what are the pro's and cons of offering a privacy
 statement? a lot of people
  think a site looks more legit with a privacy statement,
 do you agree?
 
  leigh
 
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Re: [WSG] Juicy Studio offline [CLOSED]

2005-05-03 Thread Peter Firminger
Way OT now folks.

Please send suggestions to Gez at the email address mentioned on the page
(as Douglas correctly asked you to do).

P

  Visit his site for more information about the situation and how to
  contact him with suggestions.
 
  http://juicystudio.com/
 
  Thank you!


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RE: [WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS

2005-04-20 Thread Peter Firminger
quote
There is nothing wrong with any of the above except they're being touted
by...guess who?...people who offer web design services specializing
in...guess what?...Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS. These are
simply tools. Remember, nobody gets excited about the tools used to build a
house (Please tell me what brand of hammers you used!). People get excited
about how the house looks and performs.
/quote

It's got nothing what-so-ever to do with the brand of hammer used, it's to
do with the material. You can build a perfectly good house using asbestos
products but why would you when they are proven to be bad.

I don't tell anyone that a standards-based design will make more money than
a table layout, but there are significant savings in building, maintaining
and serving a standards based website. Whether the developer passes these
savings onto the client or not is a matter often discussed. We do and we get
penalised for it often by people thinking our quotes are too cheap to be
realistic.

I've never liked this guy much anyway. His domain name is entirely
appropriate for the site it holds.

P

 Interesting thoughts from Vincent Flanders:
 http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/biggest-web-design-mistakes-in-2004.html

 Go to number 3: Mystical belief in the power of Web
 Standards, Usability,
 and tableless CSS

 What do you think?

 Stephen


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RE: [WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS

2005-04-20 Thread Peter Firminger
Further more (this rubbish by or about people justifying their inability to
do a job right really annoys me).

A person developing a website is expected to produce a product that serves
HTML or XHTML and through that some other files (images, stylesheets etc.)
to a browser. Lets just go with the HTML for now. Doesn't matter what
server-side scripting used or anything, just the output to the browser.

If that code is not valid HTML, then they simply haven't done their job.

Lets take an example kids. Russ loves to give me analogies so here's one
right back at you buddy.

We all know, at least vaguely, what written music looks like. There are 5
lines (and occasionally others briefly written above or below those) and
there are documented symbols for key, tempo and of course the notes.

Lets say we now draw 6 lines, don't put the key it's to be played in and
just use x to mark the notes instead of the correct symbols that denote
the duration of each note.

It's great... I can do it in an email as plain text.


--
x
--x---
x   x
--x---x---x---
x   x  x  x
--

--

--

But it aint music!

The poor violinist trying to make sense of it is going to have a lot of
trouble interpreting it. They may decide to ignore the bottom line and try
to play each x as a note but they have no sense of the duration of the
notes, the key it was designed for or the speed at which they should play
it.

Yes standards are important. If that guy built a house, I wouldn't be buying
it.

P

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stevio
 Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:49 PM
 To: Web Standards Group
 Subject: [WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards,
 Usability, and tableless CSS

 Interesting thoughts from Vincent Flanders:
 http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/biggest-web-design-mistakes-in
-2004.html

 Go to number 3: Mystical belief in the power of Web
 Standards, Usability,
 and tableless CSS

 What do you think?

 Stephen



 --
 No virus found in this outgoing message.
 Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
 Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.18 - Release Date: 19/04/2005

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RE: [WSG] Adobe Buys Macromedia [CLOSED and Moved to Blog]

2005-04-18 Thread Peter Firminger


 Oh, and sorry...this is fairly off topic. Apologies...

 Patrick


Yes I was thinking the same. Very interesting news with on-topic
repercussions down the track but not really a valid discussion point here
and now. However, I have set up a page in the WSG Blog for this
discussion...

http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/20.htm

P


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[WSG] Housekeeping [ADMIN]

2005-04-14 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi,

Getting a few complaints lately about useless traffic and untrimmed posts.

If your answer to a post is Looks fine on mine or Thanks for the help then 
please post it directly to the sender rather than the list. 1600+ other people 
really don't need to see it.

I can't tell you how on every mail client but as far as I know you can get the 
posters direct address from the From address. In Outlook it is shown as:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Peter Firminger [EMAIL PROTECTED]

and by double clicking Peter Firminger you are given the address in a 
dialogue box to copy.

The alternative is for me to set the list to Reply to sender instead of 
Reply to list but that would be more painful for everyone replying and would 
mean some of the great advice didn't get to everyone so please think about it 
when replying.

Please trim all previous unrelated material (including the WSG footer and 
peoples signatures) from a post when answering. Just keep what is absolutely 
necessary for context.

Please try and remember to send plain text emails rather than HTML emails to 
the list.

For those that keep asking, to unsubscribe (delete your membership) log in to 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/ and use the link Unsubscribe - Delete 
Membership. If you abandon your login email address (change jobs etc.) please 
delete your membership and resubscribe under your new address.

Please don't write to me asking to unsubscribe you.

To change which lists you are on (WSG, CMS and their digest versions) use the 
link Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions. Use this option 
when you are going on leave (vacation) and are setting a Vacation Message and 
set both lists to No Mail. You will still get infrequent messages from the 
Announce list which all members are subscribed to.

If you stop getting WSG mail it is likely that your emails have been bouncing 
and we have set you to No Mail, you may see an error message in the Note to 
member field. Please deal with the cause of the error before resubscribing to 
the list.

The digest versions (in a lot of mail clients) suck. We know and there's 
nothing we can do about it at this stage.

If you use SpamArrest to filter your emails, please use another email address 
for your WSG membership. SpamArrest are proven spammers and you DO NOT have 
the right to put other people's email addresses into their database. You may 
agree to their Terms of Service but I don't and you are violating my privacy 
by giving them my address.

Please reply off-list if you really need to, these are not topics for open 
discussion that will add to the traffic.

Regards,

Peter Firminger

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RE: [WSG] Page views per month, peak rates in an hour [CLOSED]

2005-03-28 Thread Peter Firminger
Way off topic... Please reply to Siggy off list.

Listdad

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sigurd Magnusson
 Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:38 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: SPAM: [WSG] Page views per month, peak rates in an hour

 Untitled DocumentHi all,

 A little off-topic, but after a look around the internet I've
 come up blank:

 I'm trying to lump the popularity of websites into groups
 based on the total
 number of page views per month, and also learn the peak rate
 of page views
 per hour.

 E.g. a standard banking website in New Zealand might recieve
 15 million page
 views per month, which is around 27,000 page views an hour
 (if you decided 6
 hours a night were idle), but in lunch times, that rate might
 be more like
 50,000, etc.

 I imagine in New Zealand it would be groups such as 10M+,
 1-10M, 50k-1M that
 would be--it would be interesting to learn the quantity and
 general examples
 of websites in those categories. Finally, it would be useful
 to learn how
 much higher than average the 'peak hour' is.

 Does anyone have resources or information on this;
 Australiasian would be
 most useful but other areas would atleast give me ideas!

 Siggy

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[WSG] CMS List

2005-03-14 Thread Peter Firminger
You are using them old command method to subscribe and this has been
disabled. Log into the WSG site and change your email prefs to include the
CMS list.

P

 I know this might be slightly off toic, but the CMS listserv
 on WSG won't allow
 me to subscribe:

 Sorry, the mailing list cms@webstandardsgroup.org does not
 allow subscriptions.


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RE: [WSG] 2 questions: antispam code Doc type...

2005-03-07 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi Devendra,

 Character Encoding mismatch!
 The character encoding specified in the HTTP header (utf-8)
 is different from the value in the meta element
 (iso-8859-1). I will use the value from the HTTP header
 (utf-8) for this validation.

ColdFusionMX serves a character encoding in the http header that is UTF-8 by
default (silly decision by Macromedia really). To change this put the
following CF code in your Application.cfm file (or in the document itself if
you don't use Application.cfm).

cfheader name=Content-Type value=text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

I'm sending this to the list because it relates directly to validation of
ColdFusion applications that use anything apart from UTF-8 as a charset in
the page metadata and may help others as well.

So while I'm here I'll offer the method I use nowadays for email links. Mine
are all ColdFusion but the process should work for any decent server-side
language.

Consider setting up a database table with 3 fields. Uid, email and name and
put all the contacts you require for email links in there. Then create a
form page like /email.cfm and make the links something like:

a href=/email.cfm?uid=7F81CF11-A34F-41D5-53FFD89A1D579563Email Some
Person/a

On that form, you could query the database to get the name of the email
contact so that the user is confident they are not just on a general contact
form. Do some error trapping here to make sure that you actually have a
contact with that UID. If yes, give them a form, if no, maybe say 'Sorry no
user matches your request' and give them a generic form to contact the
general email address.

On submission of that form, use the UID to query the database and get the
email address for your CFMAIL tag (or the php/whatever equivalent). The
email address is never exposed on the pages, not even in a hidden form field
in the source, and they can't guess the UIDs to automate it.

P


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[WSG] [ADMIN] Site review requests and new Brisbane organiser

2005-02-22 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi all,

When asking for site reviews please A) put at least the client name or domain 
name (not the full path if it's deeper, and no need for http:// or www.) in 
the title so that the subject lines are a little easier to separate and B) put 
your email address in the message for those that don't know how to get it from 
the message easily. e.g.

Site review: widgets.com
Site review: Widgets Inc

When answering a site review post, if you're just saying something like Hey 
nice colo(u)rs, didn't like the widget then please consider the rest of the 
list and send it directly to the person that sent it.

If you do go into a specific issue that others will learn from then please 
feel free to answer to the list.

Not trying to squash discussion and help, just trying to cut down on traffic 
that isn't really of any use to anyone else.

While I'm here I'd like to welcome Avril Bowie to the WSG Core team. Avril 
will be sharing the WSG Brisbane duties with Lea de Groot.

Regards,

Peter Firminger

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RE: [WSG] FW: Site review

2005-02-21 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi James,

As the page http://www.organicexpo.com.au/exhibitors/index.php validates as
XHTML 1.0 Strict, this may not mean anything but I have had errors or
warnings from validators about white space in html comments in the past.

!--comment-- wasn't acceptable as there needed to be a space either inside
the delimiters (--) as in
!-- comment --. Seems this has been changed in the specs, or at least the
validators. I would still suggest doing it that way anyway. This also means
that ColdFusion comments !--- comment --- should not really be used on
pages that are not parsed by ColdFusion (removing them from the source).

The links without hrefs in the footer are inaccessible.

a onclick=javascript:newWindow('../articles/terms.php')terms and
conditions/a

Without JavaScript (many smartphones etc. simply don't have it), this won't
work and they can't read your terms. A potential legal issue. The code we
use (in HTML and only when we really need to) is:

a href=page.htm target=targetname onClick=window.open('',
'targetname','toolbar=0,location=0,directories=0,status=0,menubar=0,scrollba
rs=auto,resizable=0,width=310,height=300') title=Link text (opens in a new
window)Link text/a

This is very stable code that works everywhere.

So, either don't use XHTML if you want accessible links to popup windows
(due to the lack of the target attribute) or don't use popup windows at all,
loading the terms and conditions and privacy policy in the full window. The
latter is obviously preferable as people using screen readers without the
aid of vision may not know the new window has opened and get completely lost
on a page with no navigation aids.

Just my thoughts...

P


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RE: [WSG] Tentative validation

2005-02-09 Thread Peter Firminger
You have a mixed doctype, the declaration says strict but the uri points to
the transitional dtd.

P

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul
 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 11:28 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Tentative validation

 Thanks I added a content type in my header but it is telling me the
 issue lies with this line:

 !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd;
 and I should
 change it to the new xhtml 1.1 transitional doctype, how does that
 doctype differ from what I am using, besides replacing Strict with
 Transitional.

 Paul

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Isac Backlund
 Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:44 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Tentative validation


 Paul skrev:

  When I am validating I always seem to only tentatively
 validate ( i.e
  http://www.speakupnow.ca/wu/audiovideo.php ) , is there something I
  can add to my code to make it fully validate?
 
  Paul

 Hi.
 Try adding at content-type

 meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html;
 charset=iso-8859-1

 mv icaaq



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RE: [WSG] Re: XHTML Strict alternative to ol start=11

2005-02-08 Thread Peter Firminger
Can I just offer an opinion here.

When thinking of semantics it sometimes helps to go back 20 years and use
pen and paper.

If you were writing a big list (numbering each item) in a small notepad you
would, on successive pages, keep the numbering going. So on the second page,
the first item may be number 11.

Putting that into a search result context, the 500 results from a search are
one list. If you are kind enough to break that into pages, the list is still
the same one so starting the list on the second page from record 11 and
numbering it that way is, in my view, correct.

Now, depending on how you do it you can only make that page only available
to someone that already saw the first page (using form method post)
however most of us have search results that can be linked to (using method
get in a form or dynamically writing a link with a query string).

E.g. http://www.seaslugforum.net/list.cfm?startrow=31

You'll note the text Messages 31 to 60 of 8740 to put the list in context.

I see no problem with this. In fact if the list on the second page started
at 1 I think it would be more confusing.

P


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RE: [WSG] CSS / JavaScript Problem

2005-01-29 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi Jacobus,

You'll need to resend this to the list as it was blocked and only sent to me
because you had a read receipt request on it.

Regards,

Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jacobus van Niekerk
 Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 5:33 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] CSS / JavaScript Problem


 Anybody have a solution for the following:

 I have a default style for a element:

 #s1 {height: 215px;}

 In some of the pages I need to update this value to auto, and I use
 !important setting to enforce this, via a updates.css file:

 #s1 {height: auto !important;}

 Now here is the problem:
 I now have to look at 2 elements, via JavaScript, in the doc,
 check which
 has the highest high value and assign that value to both
 elements. No matter
 what value I assign to both elements, the previous !important setting
 overrides the new values.

 Is there any way I can override the !important setting via JavaScript?

 I need a solution quite urgent, and will keep digging into
 this myself, but
 if anybody knows how, I would really appreciate this.

 Thanks in advance!


 Kind Regards
 Jacobus van Niekerk

 Creative Consultant
 

 web: http://www.catics.com/  |  http://www.freelancecontractors.com
 tel: + 27 21 982 7805

 

 --
 No virus found in this outgoing message.
 Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
 Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.4 - Release Date: 2005/01/25


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RE: [WSG] Is sending abusive spam doing standards good or harm?

2005-01-06 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi all,

 If you have any specific concerns please forward them to
 info@webboy.net or
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I'll just mention that you can't write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] as it's
a closed list and you'll be rejected posting to it unless you are
subscribed. Sorry Mark :(

I am working on another form of communication for list admin or core group
contact to take some pressure off info@webboy.net which is also our business
address. I'll let you know when I come up with something.

P


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[WSG Announce] ADMIN: Changes to WSG login system

2005-01-03 Thread Peter Firminger
This is a one-way list for WSG Announcements



Hi everyone.

You will probably get this message twice as I am cross posting to two lists to 
make sure you all see it (in case some spam filtering loses the post from 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and if you don't get the post with [WSG 
Announce] in the subject please adjust your settings to receive it).

I have made significant changes to the WSG login system. In making these 
changes I tried very hard to keep all subscriptions the same as they were 
(including people that asked me to suspend them while on vacation) but there 
is a chance that something may have gone wrong so please be kind and either 
fix up your subscription by logging in and selecting Edit your login details 
or let me know if there is something wrong that you can't fix.

If you encounter any errors on the site please let me know telling me what you 
did to get the error and please also send the error message text.

There are now three WSG lists.

[WSG Announce] A new one-way list that everyone is subscribed to.
[WSG] The main discussion list.
[WSG CMS] The content management list.

The [WSG Announce] is compulsory and is based on your login email. We will use 
this for announcements of various kinds including Russ's Links for light 
reading as suggested by many people in the recent survey. Only we can post to 
it so the traffic will be very light.

The reason for it is so that we could give you the option not to receive the 
main list and still have contact with you. This was requested by many members.

The [WSG] main list (also available in a digest version) is now optional and 
you can change the address that this is sent to (to differ from your login 
email).

The [WSG CMS] list (also available in a digest version) is also now an option 
when you log into the WSG site and select Edit your login details.

You still can't change your Login Email (which is also used for the [WSG 
Announce] list) but you can change the address that the other two lists are 
sent to and you can select full, digest or no mail from the other two lists 
whenever you like. This means that you can suspend yourself from the list when 
going on vacation etc.

If you requested to be suspended manually by us over the new year period, when 
you return you can log in and resurrect your account yourself.

A few things to note. All previous instructions about changing to digest mode 
or subscribing to the CMS list are now superseded. The list server no longer 
takes commands to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only way to change modes, 
subscribe or unsubscribe is via editing your login details.

Please take a moment to log in and look at your details. While doing this, 
please make sure your City is relevant to your general area. EG: If you live 
in a suburb close to Washington DC then put Washington DC as your city as we 
use this info to see where we have enough people to start a meeting group. We 
don't know the geography of most places so we may not know that Cambridge MA 
is a short distance from Boston MA etc. Please be general about it.

When you update your details, the confirming email now tells you which lists 
you are subscribed to (and the address they are subscribed under). REMEMBER: 
If you change the address the lists are sent to you must post to the list from 
that address or it will be rejected.

I will be looking at all the bouncing accounts from the list and setting them 
to no mail over the next few days. I'll also be looking closely at the bounces 
I get from this post and deleting anyone with fatal errors.

If you want to change your login email address, then you still need to log in, 
unsubscribe and re-subscribe with the new address.

At this point there is no confirmation process for the new list address 
field but I will be implementing one in the near future. This will mean that 
when you change the List address you will be temporarily unsubscribed from 
the lists until you respond to a confirmation email (follow a link in the 
email), the same as when you join. This is A) for making sure bounces are 
minimised because of typos and B) making sure that it is your address.

We are now looking at redesigning the WSG site. This will change the look, 
make the structure more semantically correct, change the way the resources 
section is presented and add a new Jobs section for advertising (standards 
related) positions vacant.

Please do not respond to the WSG list. Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] to 
discuss 
anything in this email.

Regards,

Peter Firminger




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[WSG] ADMIN: Changes to WSG login system

2005-01-03 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi everyone.

You will probably get this message twice as I am cross posting to two lists to 
make sure you all see it (in case some spam filtering loses the post from 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and if you don't get the post with [WSG 
Announce] in the subject please adjust your settings to receive it).

I have made significant changes to the WSG login system. In making these 
changes I tried very hard to keep all subscriptions the same as they were 
(including people that asked me to suspend them while on vacation) but there 
is a chance that something may have gone wrong so please be kind and either 
fix up your subscription by logging in and selecting Edit your login details 
or let me know if there is something wrong that you can't fix.

If you encounter any errors on the site please let me know telling me what you 
did to get the error and please also send the error message text.

There are now three WSG lists.

[WSG Announce] A new one-way list that everyone is subscribed to.
[WSG] The main discussion list.
[WSG CMS] The content management list.

The [WSG Announce] is compulsory and is based on your login email. We will use 
this for announcements of various kinds including Russ's Links for light 
reading as suggested by many people in the recent survey. Only we can post to 
it so the traffic will be very light.

The reason for it is so that we could give you the option not to receive the 
main list and still have contact with you. This was requested by many members.

The [WSG] main list (also available in a digest version) is now optional and 
you can change the address that this is sent to (to differ from your login 
email).

The [WSG CMS] list (also available in a digest version) is also now an option 
when you log into the WSG site and select Edit your login details.

You still can't change your Login Email (which is also used for the [WSG 
Announce] list) but you can change the address that the other two lists are 
sent to and you can select full, digest or no mail from the other two lists 
whenever you like. This means that you can suspend yourself from the list when 
going on vacation etc.

If you requested to be suspended manually by us over the new year period, when 
you return you can log in and resurrect your account yourself.

A few things to note. All previous instructions about changing to digest mode 
or subscribing to the CMS list are now superseded. The list server no longer 
takes commands to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only way to change modes, 
subscribe or unsubscribe is via editing your login details.

Please take a moment to log in and look at your details. While doing this, 
please make sure your City is relevant to your general area. EG: If you live 
in a suburb close to Washington DC then put Washington DC as your city as we 
use this info to see where we have enough people to start a meeting group. We 
don't know the geography of most places so we may not know that Cambridge MA 
is a short distance from Boston MA etc. Please be general about it.

When you update your details, the confirming email now tells you which lists 
you are subscribed to (and the address they are subscribed under). REMEMBER: 
If you change the address the lists are sent to you must post to the list from 
that address or it will be rejected.

I will be looking at all the bouncing accounts from the list and setting them 
to no mail over the next few days. I'll also be looking closely at the bounces 
I get from this post and deleting anyone with fatal errors.

If you want to change your login email address, then you still need to log in, 
unsubscribe and re-subscribe with the new address.

At this point there is no confirmation process for the new list address 
field but I will be implementing one in the near future. This will mean that 
when you change the List address you will be temporarily unsubscribed from 
the lists until you respond to a confirmation email (follow a link in the 
email), the same as when you join. This is A) for making sure bounces are 
minimised because of typos and B) making sure that it is your address.

We are now looking at redesigning the WSG site. This will change the look, 
make the structure more semantically correct, change the way the resources 
section is presented and add a new Jobs section for advertising (standards 
related) positions vacant.

Please do not respond to the WSG list. Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] to 
discuss 
anything in this email.

Regards,

Peter Firminger


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RE: [WSG] PHP script [ADMIN] THREAD CLOSED

2004-12-03 Thread Peter Firminger
Yeah thanks Warren, but we'll look after the traffic control please. Your
post just adds to the noise.

Please reply to Angus off list about his PHP issues.

PHP is not a web standard and is not for discussion here. The guidelines
do point this out.

P

 Pretty off topic.

 WP



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[WSG] [ADMIN] Listdad rave (please don't reply on list)

2004-12-02 Thread Peter Firminger
Hey list,

A number of things to cover. Please read on.


New Zealand:
I am stunned by the RSVPs for the upcoming meeting in Wellington. By my 
reckoning, over 50 people will attend next Thursday evening and it's their 
first meeting. You Kiwis! Always a surprise up your sleeves. Mike Brown and 
Terry Wood have certainly earned their places in the WSG core team. If only my 
passport was current... That's going to be some party!

Next year is going to be very interesting for meeting groups. We will be 
starting Perth and Canberra in the new year and there have been quite a few 
other cities suggested in the survey (see below).

__
Texas:
If you're in the Dallas or Fort Worth region, you should have received an 
off-list email about a potential meeting. I have only had two responses so far 
so please let me know if you're interested or if you're not interested so I 
know not to ask again ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).


Traffic:
With over 100 posts a day lately, it's time again to ask that we cut down on 
frivolous posts. One of the most frequent complaints we get is about the 
signal-to-noise ratio on the list.

Please stay on topic, no matter how clever your reply is. Send it back to the 
sender for a laugh, not the list please.

We're not trying to stifle on-topic posts in any way. Signal is good, noise is 
bad. (Community is good too... Laughter is the best medicine (*(c) Readers 
Digest?)... Torn now... Noise is bad, let's leave it there.) If you have a 
question, please ask it, that's what the list is for.

If you're just thanking someone for their input, do it directly. We can all 
assume you are being courteous and don't need to see it on the list.

Also:

* Turn off read receipt requests when posting to WSG. This is a daily 
problem for me as I get most of the receipts (to the list's reply address).
* If you're going away over the holiday season and will be setting a vacation 
message, please unsubscribe before you do or send me an email 
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) asking to be temporarily suspended and then remind me when 
you return to reinstate your subscription. We will terminate the membership of 
any member that has Out-of-office or vacation messages without notice from 
now on.
* Please try to remember to set your message to plain text. HTML email causes 
sooo many issues on a list. We are still waiting for SmarterTools to give us 
the option of forcing only the plain text component of posts to the mailing 
list. This may be a while yet.

__
Subject lines:
Far too many Site check please (or similar) subject lines lately.

People are happy to check your site and report back (hopefully directly to you 
and not the list unless there is a real lesson for everyone to learn and 
certainly NOT Looks fine to me replies) but it would help if you point out 
in the subject exactly what you need help with.

So, Site check - webboy.net - Nav may be an issue is far better than just 
Site check (and no, I don't want an appraisal of my website, we know it 
needs work but it's way down the list :)

___
Validation:
Please remember to validate your mark-up/css and repair any errors before 
asking for help (unless you need help with the validator results) and please 
supply a link to the site/page AND the css file (if the css isn't contained in 
the head of the same page).

This is a very important step. A lot of the problem you are wanting solved may 
well be caused by invalid mark-up. It also shows others that you are making a 
concerted effort and are not asking people to do your coding for you.

___
Survey:
If you haven't already responded, can I remind you about the WSG Member 
Survey.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=44544720503 (yes we know but the reporting 
this system does is excellent)

The results of this survey will help shape the future of the group and the 
suggestions we are getting are fantastic. We have had responses from about 10% 
of the membership (by numbers) and the bigger the sample and range of ideas, 
the better the result. If there's something you don't (or do) like, please use 
this opportunity to let us know.

We will be making significant changes to the website and membership process 
over the holiday season, and many of the changes will come from the 
suggestions in the survey. If you don't speak up now, your suggestions will 
not be part of the process.
___

Spirit:
Play nice on the list please. Telling someone their site is crap is not nice 
(even if it is crap) and we will not be tolerating on-list rudeness any more. 
It's far easier to dump an ill-mannered poster than to put up with it and the 
successive posts (on- and off-list).

As suggested, If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing. The only type of 
criticism on the list should be constructive criticism.

That is all...

P


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RE: [WSG] My site is broken in Opera

2004-12-02 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi Alan,

I strongly suggest putting the binary stuff into a background image. Google
etc. will hate what you have there as will screen readers. Interesting
effect but not a good idea unless maybe you put it at the end of the code
order. Personally, I'd lose it and use an image as a css background.

Is that why you have the mathml doctype? Can't see that it is mathml at all.
It's just 1s 0s and nbsp;s. No formulae or anything mathematical to be
seen. It's valid but not necessary and may choke older browsers.

Also, semantically very poor. Use HTML elements as they were designed. They
are not just for (default) visual behaviour, they are structural. Headings
have more weight and are used by machines (search engines, screen readers
etc.) for real semantic purpose. A div is not the same as a p even
though they are both block level elements. The default settings (for devices
that ignore the css) will make is pretty well unusable.

As with most things, be careful what you ask for. The reason we do what we
do here is to stop the need for code forking (different page/stylesheets for
different browsers). It's not a good thing to do as you don't know what will
happen. How are you determining the user agent? Opera (by default) ids
itself as IE and is indeed getting the IE stylesheet (though you mentioned
other browsers so this is probably not the issue).

My advice, back to basics. Lose all the internal divs (apart from the
containers maybe) and use hn p etc. as they should be used and you won't
have to style every little spacer div and have a huge stylesheet that really
doesn't need to be there. This should solve the issue.

By the way, there is absolutely nothing on that page that would require
using separate stylesheets if it were semantically correct code. It's the
complexity of your HTML that makes it hard for cross browser compatibility.
Saying IE doesn't like web standards is in fact wrong. It does them quite
well if you use them the right way. Just a few little things to be aware of,
none of which should apply to your page.

So:

div class=entrytitlespan class=contentheadThe Wise Words of Google -
25 November 2004/span/div
(etc... Not putting all that here)

Should be just:

h2The Wise Words of Google - 25 November 2004/h2

p
Here's a list of what google thinks of me:
/p
p
jellybean is herebr /
jellybean is a perl object server with an http interfacebr /
jellybean is a gdr dogbr /
jellybean is an enchantingbr /
jellybean is a cat pookabr /
jellybean is preposition the doorbr /
jellybean is about 12br /
jellybean is here to help
/p
p
I got this from a href=http://www.googlism.com/;googlism.com/a.
/p



Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Trick
 Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 4:18 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] My site is broken in Opera

 Hi,
 I finished a nice update for my website, added a browser detection
 script on my css because IE doensn't like web standards.
 Now my site works in all the browsers I have exept for Opera, and I
 don't know why, can anyone help me with this?
 the url is http://jellybean.uni.cc
 n.b. it uses style.css in firefox/mozilla, and styleie.css all other
 browsers
 All the pages on the site are valid xhtml+xml and both css
 files are valid.
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RE: [WSG] W3C REFERER FIX?

2004-11-29 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi,

 yeah it works on my slave machine running sp1, but I tend not
 to have that
 connected, as it will just get eaten by the web (yours is
 still alive?). it

The web never ate my machine pre SP2. Maybe I am more careful about where I
browse.

 looks like it is a sp2 IE thing stripping the headers out.
 amongst other
 things. this in itself is an example of a browser/OS affecting
 accessibility.

I have IE 6.02 on WinXP SP2 and it all works fine for me so please don't
jump to conclusions blaming Microsoft.

I suggest that it is a Norton AntiVirus or Norton Personal Firewall problem
(explicit but educated stab in the dark). If you are indeed running any of
the Symantec suite of products (lets call them CodeBreakers), shut them down
for a minute, reload the page and try the referrer link again.

If that doesn't work, keep looking (proxy server etc.), it ain't SP2 or I
would have the same problem.

P


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RE: [WSG] Defining A Definition List

2004-11-29 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi,

 Is a list with one item really a list?

Yes absolutely. If there is one person in a room and you are asked to list
the names of the people in the room then the list will have one name.

P


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RE: [WSG] Defining A Definition List

2004-11-28 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi,

 Your second example is not valid; h3 element cannot be
 contained in dl

Quite correct but it can be within the dd.

 in such way. the first one is ok, but why don't you consider
 such scenario:

 h2News/h2
 div id=news-001
  h3News Name  Date/h3
  pNews content here.../p
 /div

 or something similar to that. Imho, lists are not really to
 be used in such
 situations.

Sorry Czeslaw, I disagree entirely with this. Definition lists are entirely
appropriate for any name/value set and are quite different to other (ordered
and unordered) lists. A div is far less semantically appropriate IMHO.

A better approach may be:

h2News/h2
dl id=news!-- id only needed if you need to style this differently to
other DLs --
dtArticle 1 name/dt
ddemdate/em/dd
dd
particle 1 content/p
particle 1 content/p
/dd
/dl

Then you will have granular control over the style of the decendants of the
#news DL element so you could style (for example) the p element to have no
top-margin and sit up under the date.

P


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[WSG] PHP is OT

2004-11-28 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi folks,

No more PHP discussions please. It's no more a web standard than ColdFusion 
etc. There are other places for those discussions. If it does happen to come 
up, please answer off list.

Regards,

Listdad


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RE: [WSG] Unsubscribing

2004-11-21 Thread Peter Firminger
These messages really should be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] rather than the
list. Not to stop people publicly complaining but to keep the non-standards
traffic down for everyone else.

No to the forum, this has been discussed before.

Yes to the no-mail membership but not until I have time over xmas.

I still maintain it's kinda pointless though. The membership is to the list.
There's nothing else (apart from the ability to add resources to the
website) to be a member of. Non-members are welcome at the meetings. If you
don't want the mailing list what are you joining for?

As I've said before, I'm happy to charge you a joining fee, send you a
little WSG member badge and tell you the secret handshake, but I really
don't think you'll pay.

Once I do it, if you're a member but not on the list you won't be able to
post to the list.

A reminder about the rss feed of the list. Not perfect but not in your inbox
either. http://webstandardsgroup.org/rss.cfm

I'd prefer responses off list please -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]

P

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aaron Holbrook
 Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 8:04 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Unsubscribing

 Why not just create this kind of atmosphere in a forum, instead of an
 email group?

 Just a thought, people could check it on their own time - instead of
 filtering through dozens of emails each day (which I'm sure no one
 puts at the top of their list).

 Aaron Holbrook


 On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:59:58 -0500, Rob McCormack - ReadPlease Corp.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  This is an excellent suggestion.
 
  As good as it is... there is too much email for me
  to digest.
 
  ~Rob
 
 
  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
  Rob McCormack, P. Eng.
   President
   ReadPlease Corporation
   Software that lets your computer talk
   121 Cherry Ridge Road
   Thunder Bay, ON, Canada
   P7G 1A7
Time Zone: ET, GMT-4,  New York Time
Toll free: 877-768-6720
 
Phone: 807-474-7702
Fax:   807-768-1285
Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web:  http://readplease.com
 
  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
 
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Aaron DC [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 3:12 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: [WSG] Unsubscribing
 
 
 
  Just a suggestion:
 
  I'd like to remain a member on the website but do not have
 time to read any
  emails at the moment. I went to the website to unsubscribe
 and it's a dual
  function - unsubscribe AND delete your membership.  I'm
 unsubscribing, hope
  you dont take it personally. Would seem like a good idea
 (tm) to maintain
  membership but not email people.
 
  Aaron
 
 
  Atomic Software
  http://www.atomic-software.com.au
 
  phone: +61 409 430 231
  email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [WSG] Help With a weird link style

2004-11-21 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi Genau Jr,

The first step when asking for help is always to get the page code valid
first.

See http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://novo.meucarronovo.com.br/

Most of your problems seem to stem from unescaped ampersands () in links (I
haven't looked too far down as there are 153 errors).

So, your link to:

http://www.meucarronovo.com.br/cgi-bin/advertpro/banners.pl?region=0campaig
n=74banner=52publisher=0mode=CLICKbust=203939timestamp=20041122044306

Must be converted to:

http://www.meucarronovo.com.br/cgi-bin/advertpro/banners.pl?region=0amp;cam
paign=74amp;banner=52amp;publisher=0amp;mode=CLICKamp;bust=203939amp;ti
mestamp=20041122044306

Etc. all the way through your page. If the links come out of a dynamic
system or CMS then you need to have that system escape the ampersands or
give up on XHTML altogether.

Once all the links are finished you'll probably have some other errors to
fix. If you need help fixing those, please ask for help.

When you get a This Page Is Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional! message on the
validator, let us know if you still have problems with your initial enquiry.

Regards,

Peter

-
sorry. The correct link is http://novo.meucarronovo.com.br

without www



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RE: [WSG] Font size... [ADMIN - CLOSED AGAIN]

2004-11-20 Thread Peter Firminger
Felix.

A thread closed by a core member is not to be opened again. Period!

The topic has been exhausted.

If you have fresh information on the topic after a thread has been closed,
send it directly to the person and not to the list.

Peter


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RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Font size and arrogance

2004-11-19 Thread Peter Firminger
Be nice Iain!

Final warning.

Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Iain Harrison
 Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 7:53 PM
 To: Lothar B. Baier
 Subject: Re[2]: [WSG] Font size and arrogance

 Hello Lothar,

 Thursday, November 18, 2004, 8:06:50 PM, you wrote:

  On every computer I know, it is possible to
  reduce the screenresolution to get bigger text to the screen.

 You've never used an LCD screen that only works well at one
 resolution? You've never used a PDA?

 I don't think you understand the issue of accessibility at all. In
 many countries, laws have been needed to force people like you to
 catch up.

  So, when
  sobody with a handicap on his eyesight uses to set the
 screenresolution
  to the max. possible, he should not blame a webdesigner for
 no longer
  being able to read the text on a website. I design all my
 websites on a
  computer with the screenresolution set appropriate to the
 size of the
  screen I use. If the user does the same, he will be able to
 read, what
  is written there. If  not, it's not my fault.

 If I build a road for you, don't you worry about the six-inch-high
 jagged rocks sticking out of the surface, or the eight-inch-deep
 potholes in the road, or the 1:2 gradients. They don't matter.

 I drive a big 4x4 and that drives along the road with no trouble at
 all. I build the road for my car with a surface appropriate for the
 vehicle I use. If the user does the same, he will be able to travel,
 along that road. If not, it's not my fault.

 --
 Best regards,
  Iainmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: Re[3]: [WSG] Question to the others ...

2004-11-14 Thread Peter Firminger
 This is relevant in several respects:

 Firstly, we have to realise that there are some brain-dead mail
 filtering systems out there, and have to be careful about the words
 we use or quote in emails.

I don't agree, I can be blue to people I know in person but profanity
(including that mild but inelegant word) is simply not appropriate for this
list. We have people of all ages and many cultures/religions including some
clergy that won't appreciate the 'potty-type'.

Don't do it and it won't be a problem. Common sense and courtesy rules and
that means respect everyone.

 Secondly, the people behind these filters need to know that they are
 having their email censored for them.

They probably do.

 Fourthly, we need to be wary of this stupidity spreading to
 HTML filtering.

Maybe.

 What happens when bottom is considered too rude by a growing wave
 of prudery? margin-beneath, anyone?

Now you're stretching :)

 And fifthly, be careful when inventing class names that they won't
 be a rude word in any possible language in the world!

Why would you use anything like that? Why take the chance of embarrassing
anyone?

  Iain

End of discussion.

Thanks,

Peter


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RE: HMMMM! RE: [WSG] Lakshmi Satyanarayana/ESS/NSW_AG is out of the office.

2004-11-11 Thread Peter Firminger
Obviously, you don't need to reply to these on list.

We see them too and deal with them.

P

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sam Hutchinson
 Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:17 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: H! RE: [WSG] Lakshmi Satyanarayana/ESS/NSW_AG is
 out of the office.

 Oh joy, an out of office reply to every post all the way
 until January!


 sam
 ___
 CREATIVE SOLUTIONS FOR WEB, PRINT  MEDIA
 http://www.sammyco.co.uk/




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 05:00
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] Lakshmi Satyanarayana/ESS/NSW_AG is out of the office.


 I will be out of the office starting  12/11/2004 and will not
 return until
 05/01/2005.

 I will respond to your message when I return. For Infolink,
 Lawlink or any
 other website Queries/Support please contact Megan O' Brien
 or Jane Floyd
 by Phone or Email. Alternatively you can contact Web Services
 by mailing at
 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 This message is intended for the addressee named and may
 contain privileged
 or confidential information.  If you are not the intended
 recipient you must
 not use, disclose, copy or distribute this communication.  If you have
 received this message in error please delete the email and notify the
 sender.

 Web Site

 http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au
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RE: [WSG] Site check...

2004-11-07 Thread Peter Firminger
Some of this stuff is done best directly to the author, not the list... Use
your good judgement when replying please. If it's just a Looks good or an
unrelated question then the 1170+ others really don't need the traffic. If
it's a standards related issue or question that may help others learn
something, then the list is the correct choice.

New topic.

Let me point something out here. Please don't abuse or be rude to core
members when they contact you about breaches of etiquette or the list
guidelines (usually off list). I hear do about it and I won't stand for it.
These people are helping make this list a better service for everyone.
They're doing it for nothing and they deserve complete respect.

Obviously this is aimed at a few specific individuals that can go elsewhere
for help if they don't like the rules here.

Thanks,

ListDad


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RE: [WSG] QuickTime and XHTML validation

2004-11-05 Thread Peter Firminger
The problem with that is that (on my machine and at the time 64k ISDN
connection) it took about 3 minutes for the content to display, I assume
because it was loading the QT first. The source code was all there while
waiting to render.

 Try this:
 http://realdev1.realise.com/rossa/rendertest/quicktime.html


P



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RE: [WSG] links with same names

2004-11-03 Thread Peter Firminger
Predictable is a good thing. Expectations met! Usability has a lot to do
with predictability. The 'kiss' principle is always a good place to start.

 The whole Find out more about ... at the bottom of each page looks too
 predictable.

You can adjust the words to suit the site e.g.:

Find out more about title
More about title
Read title
More on title
Full text: title

Depends on how your titles are written and how you are accessing them
(hand coding or dynamic content output). If it's a custom built CMS you
could even add a data field specifically for this link (a short title
maybe). If it's hand coded then you can write a friendly link each time.

P


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[ADMIN] RE: [WSG] OT: We need some international help! Urgently!

2004-10-29 Thread Peter Firminger
A perfect example of what not to send to this list. Throwing in the line
and of cause a lot of webstandard skills (sic) does not put it on-topic.

I suggest all new members read the guidelines (see the link in the footer).

Traffic (and signal-to-noise ratio) is an issue on this list (especially for
me who gets all the bounces - 471 of them yesterday) and with over 1100
addresses we must remain focussed and not abuse it. FYI, we handle 35,000 -
50,000 messages per week for this list alone.

Had Dietmar read the guidelines and asked first I (probably) would have
supplied an accepted, very brief format to do this advertisement.

Sending this type of post without approval will have you deleted from the
list. If in doubt, ask first!

I say again. PLEASE READ THE GUIDELINES!

Answer Dietmar off list if you must.

ListGrump


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RE: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li

2004-10-28 Thread Peter Firminger
I notice that some people nest the input within the legend whereas I don't:

Example:

label for=nameName:br /
input type=text name=name id=name size=55 //label

or mine:

label for=nameName:/labelbr /
input type=text name=name id=name size=55 /

Does it make any difference? The ID ties them together anyway so I think
not.

P


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Web Usability
 Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:35 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li

 One benefit of using fieldset and legend for screen reader
 users is that
 nearly all readers will read the legend before every input
 label within a
 fieldset. This can be very helpful with forms that require the same
 information within different sections of the form. For
 example, if you need
 put in name, phone number etc for a number of different
 people, the form
 input labels for each person will be the same - the layout of
 the form may
 make the different sections of the form obvious for visual
 users of the
 site, but the difference may not be obvious if you can't see.
 However, when
 you use fieldset and legend (with say a legend of purchaser
 for one person)
 then the reader will read the labels within this fieldset as
 purchaser name,
 purchaser phone number etc.

 An article with some more information about form
 accessibility can be found
 at http://www.usability.com.au/resources/forms.cfm

 Hope this is helpful
 Roger

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Susan R. Grossman
 Sent: Friday, 29 October 2004 1:28 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li


   Firstly, am I using fieldset and legend in the correct
 semantic manner?

 My understanding is that fieldset is meant to group all the similar
 form elements together, not to diferentiate each input.A group of
 numbered questions are all related to each other,  and the entire
 thing should be in one fieldset with one legend.   If you were to add
 a second group of numbered questions starting the numbers over again
 because they are related to each other, but not to the first group of
 numbered questions, then you would use a second fieldset and legend.
 (a new one, not nested)

 At least this  is how I've interepreted and used the fieldset.   An
 everyday example is a login form.   The fieldset goes around the
 username and password text boxes as well as the radio button for
 remembering your password, with the legend on the login text.   Any
 other fields like submitting for a lost password would be in a
 separate fieldset with new legend of forgotten password.

 --
 Susan R. Grossman
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li

2004-10-28 Thread Peter Firminger
Yes, my use of the word legend should have read label. D'oh!

P


 However in relation to legend, a whole bunch of labels and
 inputs can be
 presented within one legend.

 Roger


 I notice that some people nest the input within the legend
 whereas I don't:


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RE: RE: [WSG] how so I stop all the postings coming to my email box?

2004-10-19 Thread Peter Firminger
Means I screwed up! Still tweaking it...

Thanks for this.

P

 WSG's feed page (http://webstandardsgroup.org/rss.cfm) gives
 me this error when
 I viewed it (FF 1.0PR, Win XP):

 + + + + + + + + + + + CODE + + + + + + + + + +
 XML Parsing Error: not well-formed
 Location: http://webstandardsgroup.org/rss.cfm
 Line Number 250, Column 100:

 description![CDATA[gt; Is there any way to force word
 wrap, even on single
 --
 -^
 + + + + + + + + + + + /CODE + + + + + + + + + +

 don't know what it means.

 later,
 Zulema


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RE: [WSG] how so I stop all the postings coming to my email box?

2004-10-18 Thread Peter Firminger



Hi Casey,

While answering your question I am also answering some other 
enquiries I have had recently so it's of interest to all (otherwise I'd answer 
off list).

Joining WSG simply means joiningthe WSGmailing list. 
That's all there is (well, you can also add resources to the website as a 
member). I don't know what people expect for nothing. A badge or jacket? A 
secret handshake?

Yes, digest mode will gather all the emails sent in a day and give 
them to you in one email. Probably a good idea to try it and see what it does. 
Most people with any list experience know what digest mode is, so I didn't think 
it needed explanation.

It's quite clear in the terms of joining that you are joining a 
mailing list and the join message from the list server confirms it further. I'll 
look at the language and adjust if I think it's unclear.

We don't have "boards" to read, we have a mailing list and given 
the complexity of the subject,there is often a lot of list traffic. This 
means that it's working as intended and nearly 1100 people around the world get 
answers to many questions and read some interesting debates on important issues 
like the correct use of elements within HTML and XHTML (semantics) and the 
appropriate uses of the languages.

We get private emails from many members thanking us and saying how 
much the discussions have helped them, even though they didn't ask the initial 
question.

I'm really not sure what you were expecting (boards?) but this is 
a mailing list, and seemingly a very effective one.


Having said all that, when I get some time (or when someone offers 
to pay me while I do it 'cause I do have to eat and paying work comes first) I 
am looking at adding some fields to the member database so that you can be a 
member and not be on the mail list. 

This however means you won't be able to post to the list. 


We will give you some methods to read the list without receiving 
it in your mailbox. These include the current methods: The members archive 
(http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm 
), the public archive (http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/ 
) and an RSS feed (http://webstandardsgroup.org/rss.cfm 
) you can read in something like FeedDemon. The date/time order in these is a 
little off butthey seem to work fine.

No, there will not be a NewsGroup, a forum or a message board. The 
only method of getting help will be the mailing list as that is the root of this 
group.

Personally, the mail list (with some filters inthe email 
client) works perfectly for me. Others choose a web-based email account (yahoo, 
hotmailor gmail) for reading the list posts. I have been testing the RSS 
feed and it's really no different.

For those that have asked about list features, SmarterMail 2.0 has 
now been released and I'll be installing it soon so we may get a better Digest 
mode and hopefully (I haven't seen whether they implemented our suggestions) see 
the end of HTML email on the list altogether.

Finally, let me point out that Russ and I (and the other core 
members) cannot watch the list every minute of the day. We have businesses to 
run and clients to keep happy. So not getting an answer within an hour is really 
not surprising from agroup (not club) with no membership fees. Also, we 
are in an entirely different time zone to you in Arizona (though our server is 
actually in Phoenix), all the core group are in eastern 
Australia.

Welcome to the group Casey, I hope this clears up your 
questions.

Regards,
Peter Firminger

  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SRGSent: 
  Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:19 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] how so I stop all the 
  postings coming to my email box?
  
  
  Hi, 
  I just JOINED your group last night and now find my email box bomb-barred with 
  to many messages / how do I stop them and still 
  remain a member of your group. I simple want to read the messages 
  from your boards. Is that what the Digest Mode does, because that is not 
  clearly indicated as to its actual function. 
  Thanks 
  for your help. 
Casey


RE: [WSG] web photo album [ADMIN]

2004-10-14 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi folks,

This isn't on topic at all. We don't talk about specific web applications on
this list, just the concepts surrounding the output of any system. Please
continue this discussion on the CMS list as that is far more appropriate
(the content being the images in this case). See the resources section of
the website for details of joining the CMS list.

Regards,

Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Czeiger
 Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 1:00 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] web photo album

 Umm,

 Don't know if this is what you guys are after, but you can
 check out and use
 the code here:

 http://www.grafx.com.au/dik

 All done in XHTML, CSS and JavaScript.
 No database, no PHP.
 All you need is to use Photoshop's Automate feature and do
 a bulk rename
 in Windows for the images and thumbnails.
 You can add captions via a caption.js file.

 Someone might find this fun...

 :o)

 Richard



 - Original Message -
 From: Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 12:49 PM
 Subject: Re: [WSG] web photo album


 PS If you want to see it working in real life, im currently setting it
 up for some travel photos at http://www.bhatt.id.au/photos/

 Neerav Bhatt
 http://www.bhatt.id.au
 Web Development  IT consultancy

 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav

 Neerav wrote:
  I have just found a great solution
 
  http://singapore.sourceforge.net/
 
  singapore is yet another open source PHP based image gallery web
  application.
 
  What makes singapore different from the hundreds of other similar
  scripts is that it is specifically geared towards displaying
  photographic art and as such looks much nicer than most
 galleries. See it.
 
  It does NOT require MySQL or other database programs since all image
  information is stored in flat text CSV files (although an
 optional MySQL
  backend is planned for a future release).
 
  singapore also implements an info in filename system
 where artist and
  title information can be coded into the directory and file
 names meaning
  no database is required at all. More...
  Current features:
 
  * Flexible modes of operation:
o Can store image info in CSV files on server (no
 database), or
o Can store image info in directory and file names
 (no setup), or
o Can function without any extra image info.
  * Multi language support
  * Support for unlimited depth of nested sub-galleries
  * Support for skins and templates
  * Very easy setup
  * Web based admin to add, delete  edit images and galleries
  * Automatically generates thumbnails (requires GD or
 ImageMagick)
  * Generated thumbnails are cached for speed
  * Images may be stored on a different server
  * Image viewing statistics
  * User defined image information such as location
 taken, camera used
  etc.
  * XHTML 1.0 and CSS 2.0 compatible output only (no
 JavaScript and no
  cookies)
 
  Neerav Bhatt
  http://www.bhatt.id.au
  Web Development  IT consultancy
 
  http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
  http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
 
  john wrote:
 
  Hello, WSG.
 
  In the process of getting some of my sites up to par with
 standards, I'm
  trying to find a clean alternative to the clunky photo albums I
  currently have.  I could do it all by hand, but it would
 be extremely
  time-consuming (not to mention that I have a wife and kid
 that prevent
  me spending what time I have!), so can anybody please tell
 me if any
  software exists that can create clean thumbnailed albums
 using XHTML
  and CSS?
 
  Thanks a million.
 
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RE: [WSG] CSS Validation query

2004-10-13 Thread Peter Firminger
Interesting,

You may have flummoxed it with the double color reference

background-color : #05695c;
color : #000;
font-family : Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size : 80%;
color : #02486c;

Try removing the black one (color : #000;) and see if it fixes it.

P

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jackie Reid
 Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:13 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] CSS Validation query

 Hi everyone

 im a bit confused here - trying to validate my css and i get
 this warning

 Line : 0 font-family: You are encouraged to offer a generic
 family as a
 last alternative

 what do they mean... i always do that and get the no errors
 or warnings
 reply...

 whats going on.. ?

 Jackie

 www.jobfitsystem.com/about.asp
 www.jobfitsystem.com/styles/jobfit2.css

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RE: [WSG] CSS Validation query

2004-10-13 Thread Peter Firminger
Just a heads up, always look for No errors or warnings. You can get the
congrats but still have warnings if you scroll down. Jackie's concern was a
warning even though it was valid css.

P


 Congratulations!

 Valid CSS!This document validates as CSS!

 Is what I get when I validate the CSS directly, or through the site!!
 Dunno what's going on. I quickly checked and you've got a generic font
 on the 3 font-families. I'd just say it's the validator being stupid.


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RE: [WSG] Is XHTML harmful?

2004-10-06 Thread Peter Firminger
Hmmm...

 but it was also pointed out 

 paste
 Note that a strict interpretation of the WAI WCAG 1.0 guidelines would
 indicate that you MUST use XHTML 1.0 if you intent to comply
 with WAI AA
 guidelines. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/

Um, no. Not MUST at all. This is misinterpreting the facts.

 Checkpoints:
 11.1 Use W3C technologies when they are available and
 appropriate for a
 task and use the latest versions when supported. [Priority 2]
 /paste

I would think that IE's non support of the correct mime type means that
when supported fails, and as for appropriate, that's a judgement call
based on personal preference.

HTML 4.01 is still entirely appropriate for general content mark-up and IS
the latest version of HTML. What they mean here is that HTML 4.0 is not
appropriate, (and it's debateable whether HTML 3.2 is either... By version
do they mean the language or the subset? HTML 3.2 is the latest version of
HTML 3)

XHTML did not replace HTML or it would have been called HTML 5.0.

P


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RE: [WSG] IE topnav problems

2004-10-04 Thread Peter Firminger
Um, local machines won't work out here!

P

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake
 Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:37 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] IE topnav problems

 I am stumped on this issue.

 Our top nav has a simple tab setup.  It looks proper in
 firefox, there should be a thin white line separating the top
 nav from the subnav.
 In IE, there appears to be 2px of bottom padding or margin on
 the top nav and it is hiding the white line. I've tried all
 sorts of arrangements for this and cannot find a solution.

 Here's an appropriate example:
 http://tcdpc:8100/csa/help.do

 Here's the appropriate css:
 http://tcdpc:8100/csa/css/nav.css

 I've got a hack I can add to fillup some of the space but I'd
 rather get it to work properly. I've got a launch date of
 tuesday so any help out there is much appreciated.

 Thanks
 Ted

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RE: [WSG] Web standards planet

2004-09-12 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi Jad,

I'm afraid I don't really see the point. All these blogs tend to interlink
anyway so there's really nothing new here and there are many sites that do
this kind of linking (e.g. http://dezwozhere.com/links.html among heaps of
others). A site with no content isn't really of any value to anyone.

Also, the naming is very confusing. W3 is an abbreviation (of sorts) for
World Wide Web not Web Standards so using W3 Planet and Web Standards
Planet together just doesn't work.

Sorry to be so blunt. I'd suggest you put a bit (lot) more thought into the
concept.

Regards,

Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jad Madi
 Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:08 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] Web standards planet

 Greetings

 Yesterday I got nice idea, so I start working on it actually W3 planet
  try to connect Web standards related bloggers, and web standards
 related sites within one website.
 please check http://www.w3planet.info/

 guys your feedback is worthy

 Thank you
 Jad madi
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RE: [WSG] Change defaults in IE with CSS style sheet

2004-09-08 Thread Peter Firminger
Go to Tools | Internet Options and at the bottom of the General tab click
the Accessibility button and add your stylesheet there.

P

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph
 Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 11:59 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] Change defaults in IE with CSS style sheet

 Hi everyone

 I am wondering if anyone knows how to change the defaults in
 browsers like
 IE.

 I recall someone showed how a user can make their default
 font say Arial,
 10, etc with particular colour like black on white background. Its all
 configured in a CSS file. So it over rides the CSS style that
 a website
 uses.

 I'd like to do some testing of a site and trying to factor
 this scenario in.

 Off-list responses welcomed..

 Ralph


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[WSG] Sorry for the huge email folks

2004-08-11 Thread Peter Firminger
Obviously that was meant to be sent to Kay directly.

Regards,

Peter Firminger

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+612 4998 3388

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[WSG] [ADMIN] A plea for plain text to the list

2004-08-05 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi folks,

In the last couple of days I have been getting many bounces from the list by
mail servers blocking posts as spam because they are in HTML or Outlook Rich
Text format.

Can I again ask that you try to remember to set your emails to plain text
rather than HTML when posting to the list.

If your email program (Outlook specifically) is set to Outlook Rich Text
then you really should change this to HTML (or even better, plain text) as it
is pretty well unsupported by any other email client as far as I can see.

There seems to be at least one person posting in this format. I haven't
investigated as to who it is and I'd rather not go into it.

No discussion required on this topic but if you have a specific query, please
email us directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Regards,

Listdad


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RE: [WSG] Why do (some) web developers user Firefox? [ADMIN] Wind it up please

2004-07-29 Thread Peter Firminger
I think we're done on this pretty well OT subject now thanks.

P


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RE: [WSG] CMS [ADMIN] Moved to CMS List

2004-07-29 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi,

There is a specific WSG list for CMS matters. Please join and use that list
for this discussion.

http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource131.cfm for details.

P

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Deering
 Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 11:48 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [WSG] CMS

  -Original Message-
  From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
 
  Hi Geoff,
 
  But still it is no guarantee to maintain the sites
  standards compliance when you hand it over to the client
 
  Actually, we are working hard to address this specific
 issue. Check out
  http://xstandard.com
 
  Regards,
  -Vlad
  XStandard Development Team
  XHTML Strict / 1.1 WYSIWYG Editor

 Yes, this is good, and many CMS's have similar editors built in;
 Cocoon/Lenya and Plone.  But one still has to sign off to customer
 explicitly stating that if they meddle with the code your warranty of
 standards compliance and accessibility is then void.

 The other problem is contracts specifically specifying that
 they must comply
 with ATAG.  I have not seen one yet, but I am sure it is
 coming, especially
 in government contracts.

 Unfortunately, from the developers side, ATAG is a rather
 naive document, I
 would never sign a contract that references ATAG compliance.
 Why, because
 all web based authoring tools must comply with WCAG1 P1.
 Show me one decent
 one that works with scripting turned off?

 Does xstandard meet this requirement?

 I think this is a reasonable accessibility request for web
 sites, but to
 deny the type of authoring environments via web forms that
 only scripting
 can deliver, is putting an almost impossible criteria on this type of
 authoring environment.  It would mean you could only do
 simple processing of
 text like wrapping p around line breaks.

 If you don't think this is an issue, I have been in
 situations where I have
 had to comply to the letter of the specifications, and in
 some cases write
 detailed explanations of our code referencing a series of
 templates and show
 that that code on deliverable, is standard and accessible.
 And I wouldn't
 be so naive as to believe that no one will ever sue you for
 the holes in
 ATAG.  It will happen if ATAG is not cleaned up and clarified.

 Geoff

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RE: [WSG] A California meeting? was Brisbane July Meeting - Report

2004-07-17 Thread Peter Firminger
Hey folks,

We don't need on-list confirmations of where you are thanks. If your details
are right in the login database then we know.

Thanks,

Peter


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[WSG] Meetings in new cities

2004-07-16 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi all,

If you want to see how many people are in your area (and if you have over
ten you can probably start a meeting group) please log into the site, scroll
down on the member home page to Country/Member count and click View Details
(or just go to http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_view.cfm )

Scroll down about 2/3 of the page and you'll see City totals.

Check your city and if you have a good number of people, let us know
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and we can contact the people in your area to see if there
is any interest.

Perth and Canberra, we'll be onto you soon. London and New York are also
candidates for our first non-Australian meeting groups.

P


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RE: [WSG] A California meeting? was Brisbane July Meeting - Report

2004-07-16 Thread Peter Firminger

 Marina Del Rey, CA is a suburb of Los Angeles, California.
 Paradise!!! :-)

 Best,
 Jim Barricks

Might be best to list yourself as Los Angeles then, or is it really too far
spread? I've only seen the airport :)

This is why we ask for the general city rather than suburbs or sattelite
cities. I suspect there are some pretty close to Boston that list their
city/suburb locally as well (Cambridge etc.).

If you're interested in a meeting in your area, it might be a good idea to
change your location to one that shows the closet major city you're prepared
to travel to for a meeting.

Oh, and please be neat, check the list to see the way others have entered
the state etc. Use proper capitalisation. US states should be your two
letter code (Uppercase). I keep an eye on it and adjust accordingly but it's
time consuming. Also, check the spelling of your country. Some are entered
in the local version and some in the English dirivitave (e.g. Brasil instead
of Brazil, Espana instead of Spain).

P


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RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)

2004-07-08 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi Scott,

The process is open. Join W3C, get on a working group and contribute to
you're heart's content. But you'll need to know a lot more than you do now.
No offence but I think you'll be out of your depth just getting out of the
elevator (as I would be).

http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/Joining

It's very easy to criticise the process but very few (360) actually make the
huge effort to be involved, sit on a working group, attend the workshops,
contribute to the discussions and actually do something about it. I trust
the people that are there and that they are a very balanced and incredibly
clever group.

http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List

Obviously the majority of them are corporate. They have the resources to
actually pay someone to be involved and fly them around to wherever the
meetings are, and they will have a person that is an expert in the field. I
wouldn't want just anyone (me, you etc.) sitting on these committees wasting
their time.

Read some of the transcripts of the meetings and see what's involved. Like
this one from June:

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-cdf-discuss/2004Jun/att-0
000/2004jun01.html

A side point (from the above workshop)... I love this statement:

Bert Bos: Nearly 10 years ago, HTML was in danger. Extensions for layout
made HTML less useful, proprietary extensions, etc. so we created
stylesheets. CSS is now being taken up, but HTML is in danger again.
JavaScript is the worst invention ever.

And this:

Hakon Lie: Bert started his presenation by saying he joined W3C to save
HTML. How do you save something? How do you save a village? An endangered
species? Do we save it by freezeing it? Or by doing something totally
differetrn? Evolve it? EDo we want a revolution or an evolution?

P


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RE: [WSG] Jobs and the list - where else?

2004-07-07 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi,

Russ is in New Zealand at the moment and the end of the financial year was
not good for either of us.

For the moment I don't have time to build a new section for job ads, but
it's in the list of things to do.  I don't believe it's a good solution
though as it will still require people to actively go there to look for new
positions. It's not the role of WSG to be a listing agency so I only want
the occasional one on the list and this has strict guidelines on formatting
and wording. If you really need to post one, please write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
first and we'll give you the format and permission to post it.

As for other places, if it's in Australia then try listing on
www.webdesigners.net.au and I'm sure there are others as well.

Regards,

Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neerav
 Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:12 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Jobs and the list - where else?

 Graeme

 Great minds obviously think alike! I sent this email to
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] a
 week ago and have recvd no. I guess it got lost in his inbox, so ill
 post it here instead where all the moderators and members can read it:

 

  Russ
 
  Id like to put an idea to you as one of the WSG head
 honchos ... what do you think of this train of thought...
 
  1. Developers who are a member of the WSG are more likely
 to use web standards in their work than developers who are not
 
  2. Therefore they are more likely to employ / contract out
 work to fellow WSG members, because WSG members are more
 likely than not to have skills they require
 
  3. Currently there is nothing stopping people from
 privately asking other WSG members if they know of
 job/contract opportunities by email, at the bi-monthly
 meetings or networking like on Thursday night, but it would
 be easier if WSG members who wanted to be contacted by:
  - prospective WSG member employees/contractors,
  - other WSG member companies to whom they can partner with
 
  Could add themselves to some kind of listing/directory
 available for viewing once logged into the WSG site. This
 could be beneficial for all members if done well.

 --
 Neerav Bhatt
 http://www.bhatt.id.au
 Web Development  IT consultancy
 Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27

 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav

 Graeme Merrall wrote:
  Hi all.
  According to the list guidelines
  (http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm),  job
 opportunities
  should not be posted.  Is there an appropriate alternative for WSG
  people?
 
  Cheers,
   Graeme
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RE: [WSG] THREAD CLOSED - Redesigning smh.com.au theage.com.au with css

2004-06-21 Thread Peter Firminger
Title: RE: [WSG] Redesigning smh.com.au & theage.com.au with css



Sorry folks, nothing really wrong here but the subject 
line is giving me grief.Some Governmentspam filters see ; in the 
subject and throw it back to me and I'm getting swamped. Stupid really but there 
you go.

If you must answer it please remove amp; from the 
subject line.

No discussion on this matter 
please.

P

  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter 
  OtterySent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:18 AMTo: 
  '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: [WSG] Redesigning 
  smh.com.au amp; theage.com.au with css
  
  Hiya,
  sorry, dont mean to add to the list traffic too much 
  but just wanted to point out that your Mozilla extension added in some of its 
  own styles etc when used to copy and paste those styles Amit. (changed colour 
  values to rbg and added things like "border: medium 
  none"...)
  cheers,
  pete
  
 I was just going to say 
that Pete :)
 use firefox/mozilla and 
dig out the CSS with the 'web developer 
extension.
 Here you go 
Nancy.

 
Regards,
 Amit 
Karmakar
 
www.karmakars.com

snip pasted smh css was 
here/snip


RE: [WSG] OT: Intranet Search utility [ANSWER TO SENDER ONLY PLEASE]

2004-06-14 Thread Peter Firminger
Please answer this off list as it has nothing to do with Web Standards.

P

 I am looking for a (preferably free) software to be able to
 do searches
 on an Intranet site. The Intranet is hosted on a local Unix Server.
 Any inputs would be greatly appreciated.


 Regards,
 Amit Karmakar
 www.karmakars.com


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RE: [WSG] Interesting reading

2004-06-14 Thread Peter Firminger
 Then again, according to the article (rant): changing
 standards = OXYMORON

That's why there are different versions and subversions. 3.2, 4.0 and 4.01
are all different beasts. They don't change. If you're an idiot that doesn't
think a doctype is required because you don't understand it, then what do
you expect?

The author doesn't understand what a standard is. Putting features into a
browser outside the standard doesn't make the browser non-compliant. It's
when they don't implement something that is in the standard (or get the
implementation wrong as in the box model) that the problem occurs.

If IE7 puts in some support for new proprietary tags that are undefined in
any standard, fine, as long as we don't use them and discourage anyone else
from doing so. The same reason that client-side VBScript failed will
prevail.

Who is this person? http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_07.aspx
makes it even worse. He hasn't a clue. Just because you store the content in
a database doesn't mean that it needs to be output in a table.

It's not worth the effort responding. It's like talking to a confirmed
racist. They make up whatever excuses they can satisfy themselves with.
He'll feel like a fool when he eventually gets it as it'll all be in the
wayback machine for posterity. Obviously why his name isn't on it.

I don't care if Yahoo! uses invalid code. A) I don't (and refuse to) use it
and B) I don't have to maintain it. A perfectly named company describing the
people that run it :)

Let it go.

P


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[WSG] Category for Standards-based applications

2004-06-13 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi List,

I have added (at the request of Bert Doorn) a resources section for server
applications that output valid code.

Bert's question included the following:

-
In order to further promote standards compliant (x)html and css websites, I
wonder if we could as a group provide a list/database of commonly used
server-side scripts that are designed to output standards compliant code (or
can do so with minor configuration).  I don't see anything like it in the
resources.

I am thinking in terms of ASP/PHP/whatever scripts in categories like (to
mention just a handful):

Shopping Carts
Content Management Systems
Forums
Blogs
Classified Ads

There are of course lots of script archives out there, but it's hard to find
scripts that don't use tables nested n levels deep, font elements and other
assorted crap.
-

I've added Movable Type and Farcry to start with so please add any others that
you know of (and feel free to edit the text of my entries).

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat25.cfm

Personally, I don't know that there are a lot of these available off-the-shelf
yet. I guess that's where groups like this come in and our clever developers
start making them available to the world.

Regards,

Peter


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RE: [WSG] file extensions

2004-06-12 Thread Peter Firminger



Not a good idea for the average website. If you're running 
amazon.com then there would be a reason to do it but for most of us maintenance 
would be an issue.

P

  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher 
  KennonSent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 9:28 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] file 
  extensions
  Hi,Below is the url and excerpt from the passage in 
  question. I've tried it and it works. The images are displayed, but someone 
  looking over the code commented that it appeared that an image was used, but 
  the extension was missing. Thus the question was inspired.Chrishttp://www.sitepoint.com/article/effective-website-acceleration/218. 
  Remove or reduce file extensions. Interestingly, 
  there really is little value to including file extensions such as .gif, . jpg , .js, and so on. The browser does not 
  rely on these values to render a page; rather it uses the MIME type header in 
  the response. Knowing this, we might take: img 
  src="" and 
  shorten it to: img 
  src="" If 
  combined with file renaming, this might produce: img 
  src="" Don't 
  be scared by how strange this technique looks; your actual file will still be 
  sA.gif. It's just the end user who won't see it that way! In order to take advantage of 
  this more advanced technique, however, you do need to make modifications to 
  your server. The main thing you will have to do is to enable something called 
  "content negotiation," which may be native to your server or require an 
  extension such as 
  mod_negotation for Apache or Port80's 
  pageXchanger for IIS. The downside to this is that it may cause a slight 
  performance hit on your server. However, the benefits of 
  adding content negotiation far outweigh the costs. Clean URLs improve both 
  security and portability of your sites, and even allow for adaptive content 
  delivery whereby you can send different image types or languages to users 
  based upon their browser's capabilities or system preferences! See 
"Towards Next Generation 
  URLs" by the same 
  authors for more information. Note: Extension-less URLs 
  will not hurt your search engine ranking. Port80 Software, as well as major 
  sites like the W3C, use this technique and have suffered no ill effects. On Saturday, June 12, 2004, at 03:34 
  PM, Jason Turnbull wrote:
  
Just finished article from a reputable web site, specializing 
  in bestpractices. They suggest omitting the file extensions .gif , 
  .jpg and.png from image files for bandwidth conservation. 
Chris, Whats the URL for this article. I'm finding it 
hard to grasp thereasoning, does it save on bandwidth as the images 
don't get 
displayed?:-)RegardsJason*The 
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[WSG] Workshop on the W3C's Semantic Web Services Activity

2004-06-11 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi list,

For our Queensland members (or anyone else that has a travel budget to get
them to Brisbane for a Queensland mid-winter weekend):



The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is a non-for-profit, vendor-neutral
international Web standards organisation that develops interoperable
technologies (specifications, guidelines, software, and tools) to lead the Web
to its full potential. W3C is a forum for information, commerce,
communication, and collective understanding.

You are invited to a free W3C workshop on the W3C's Semantic Web Services
Activity to be held at:

9:30am to 10:30am
Monday, 21 June 2004
IIB, Level 2, Leighton Building,
143 Coronation Drive (entry off Little Cribb Street), Milton
http://www.iib.qld.gov.au/map.asp

RSVP at: http://w3c.dstc.edu.au/events/bne2workshop_jun04.html

Semantic Web Services
=

Web services are transforming the Internet from a collection of information
into a distributed computational device. They enable software applications to
be distributed, accessed and executed via the Web. But current web service
technologies (UDDI, WSDL, and SOAP) provide limited support for automating
service discovery, service configuration and service composition (i.e.,
realizing complex workflows with Web services). In order to fully employ the
potential of web services, they need to be appropriately described. Semantic
Web Services combines Semantic Web technology with Web Service technology to
enable automated and dynamic Web service discovery, execution and composition
through new technologies such as OWL-S (Ontology Web Language for Services).

This presentation will provide an overview of the Semantic Web Services
vision, describe recent technological developments (such as OWL-S), and
demonstrate potential applications of Semantic Web services through a number
of case studies.

Bio
===

Dr Jane Hunter is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Distributed Systems
Technology (DSTC) Cooperative Research Centre, at the University of
Queensland. She is also Project Leader of DSTC's MAENAD (Multimedia Access for
Enterprises across Networks And Domains) project which is developing indexing,
archival, discovery, analysis, integration, management and preservation tools
and services to enable knowledge management, mining and capture within the
educational, cultural and scientific domains. She is currently the liaison
between MPEG (Moving Pictures Experts Group) and W3C, a member of the Dublin
Core Advisory Board and the W3C Web Ontology Language Working group and on the
Editorial board of Elsevier's Journal of Web Semantics.


This project is funded under the Commonwealth Government's Innovation Access
Program. An initiative of Backing Australia's Ability, the Commonwealth
Government's commitment to Innovation and supported by DSTC, the Information
Industries Bureau, ATUG and The Web Standards Group.


URIs:
=

AusIndustry: http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/

DSTC: http://www.dstc.edu.au/

IIB: http://www.iib.qld.gov.au/

ATUG: http://www.atug.com.au/

Web Standards Group: http://webstandardsgroup.org/

W3C Australian Office: http://w3c.dstc.edu.au/

W3C Semantic Web Services Interest Group: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/swsig/



No replies to the list please.

Regards,

Peter


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[WSG] G RATED LIST

2004-06-10 Thread Peter Firminger
 LOL

Yeah, I'm not laughing! You should see the bounces I get from many many
(Government) mail servers that block anything containing the f word
(probably when it is in a URL).

New rule (I really didn't think we had to make a rule about this)

Anyone using profanity on this list in future will be dumped with extreme
prejudice. Even if they're in urls. We have many members from many
cultures/religions AND we have students as well, some quite young. I will
not stand for anything that can possibly offend any member, especially when
it adds to the weight of bounces into my inbox.

We are definitely G RATED. Crap is the worst word I'll allow on the list.

Don't answer, it isn't negotiable.

 and you'll probably like this:
 http://www...


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RE: [WSG] meta http-equiv :- CORRECTION

2004-06-09 Thread Peter Firminger
Nope sorry,

 The correct content type or MIME type for an XHTML document is
 application/xhtml+xml.

This (mime type issue) is only required for XHTML 1.1. You don't have to do
it for XHTML 1.0 Transitional (which the example was).

The answer to Jamie's original question is to have a look at the source of
some valid XHTML documents (like http://we04.com/ off the top of my bald
head) to see what others use or paste the code you sent us into a validator
(I suggest http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/direct.html for direct
input) or even more simple, validate it in your code editor. If you're not
using a code editor (notepad isn't a code editor it's a text editor) get
one!

It's simply amazing what google will show you on these topics as well!

http://www.google.com/search?q=xhtml+mime+type

http://www.google.com/search?q=xhtml+doctype

Sorry Jamie, just trying to teach people how to fish (on a very well
documented issue) instead of catching and cooking it. Sorry if this approach
offends anyone but if it saves just 10% of the stuff coming into my inbox
it's worth it (66 posts and 161 bounces from this list so far today).

Peter


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RE: [WSG] Standard Hacks?

2004-06-09 Thread Peter Firminger
Russ and I have discussed this at length and we have come to the opinion
that the @import rule (when used in that manner) is indeed a hack but a
harmless one.

The reasoning is that it exploits a bug or particular behaviour in a
browser. In this case, older browsers don't understand it at all and they
ignore it so that the real styles that will break them can be put in there
safely.

We believe (and maintain) that it is harmless as we can't envisage any
browser manufacturer not obeying it in the future as it is actually the
preferred method.

Regards,

Peter


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harwood
 Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:35 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Standard Hacks?

 media=screen is not a hack, thats statin the proper display
 device target for
 the relavent stylesheet.

 Hacks are things like the IE Underscore hack, they tend to be
 workarounds for CSS
 properties that are not yet implemented in certain browsers
 or that need slightly
 differnt values, theres differnt hacks for each of the dodgy browsers.

 But you sould always look towards creating your site hack
 free as that is the
 best was to make sure its backward/forward and bloody even
 sideways compatible!

 Hacks are for the Cowbot webdesigner who hasnt done his job
 right in the first
 place! ( or for a client thats given too much hassle and not
 enough cash to make
 the recode cost effective! ;] )

 Mark
 www.phunky.co.uk

 On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:11 , J4Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent:

 Well; I am surprised, but pleased actually, that so many of
 you are saying
 that hacks are not part of the Standards Arsenal. I had got
 the impression
 that I needed to become familiar with gadzillian hacks and
 be able to draw
 the appropriate one out of the woodwork every ten lines of
 CSS code. But I
 am getting the message that one can produce Standards
 Compliant pages
 without hacking.
 
 I am not quite totally convinced, though, and some of the
 replies have gone
 in the direction of supporting a big fat list, if not
 including some
 hacks in standard templates.
 
 I wondered if there are some workarounds that people on this
 list use
 habitually and forget they use them, so I did a quick sample
 of some of the
 URLs at the bottom of peoples' posts and the only hack I
 found so far (but
 I have not searched very thoroughly) was on the
 webstandards.org.au site :
 
 @import
 url(/stylesheets/wsg_advanced.css);
 
 media=screen
 
 Is the import hack a candidate for first (or sole) item on
 the list of
 standard hacks?
 
 It seems pretty essential to me to get version 4 browsers to degrade
 gracefully.
 
 I am enjoying learning from those who have been in this game
 much longer
 than me.
 
 John
 
 
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