RE: [WSG] The mystery gap issue

2008-11-11 Thread Peter Goddard
PNG transparency only works in IE7+ ...there are some workarounds easliy
found on Google.

 

hth

 

Peter Goddard

Developer/Programmer

PSI Global Ltd, Bowburn, Durham DH6 5AD, UK
T: +44 (0) 191 3774742
F: +44 (0) 191 3770769
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 






From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kristine Cummins
Sent: 11 November 2008 10:02
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] The mystery gap issue

 

Please check www.richardvonsaal.com/test/index.html

 

The gap is about 2 pixels high directly beneath the big image, and on
top of the footer div.

Stylesheet www.richardvonsaal.com/test/styles.html

 

I'm tearing hair at this point. Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

Another question: why is it that the .png file shows a white background
in older versions of IE? Is it because it hadn't adapted to this newer
file type? Should I not use the .png file type yet?

Thanks in advance,

Kristine

 


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RE: [WSG] .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict

2008-10-08 Thread Peter Goddard
Hi

 

I'm a front and backend developer using .NET and it is certainly tricky
to get those Visual Studio inserted items to validate. However there are
some best practices for this. Use web controls with full control over
the markup and the latest 3.5 version stuff certainly helps (FormView,
CSS Friendly Control Adapters etc). It's not impossible and there's
plenty of assistance available online. 

 

It does require more effort than just using the standard control
toolkits supplied by Microsoft and there are a raft of Control providers
(eg Telerik) that help. Basically, once those techniques are learned,
they can be adapted to suit any site.

 

Additionally, there are best practices available which enable the
placing of the server generated javascript to one area of the page
(after the html) and JSON/AJAX/MVC Framework techniques which can also
help.

 

.NET gets a lot of criticism for this and often justifiably but really
it's just a tool and you know what they say about workmen and their
tools

 

Validation isn't just the province of the PHP/LAMP crowd.

 

HTH

 

Peter

 

 

 

Peter Goddard

Developer/Programmer

PSI Global Ltd, Bowburn, Durham DH6 5AD, UK
T: +44 (0) 191 3774742
F: +44 (0) 191 3770769
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 






From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Todd Baker
Sent: 08 October 2008 13:01
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict

 

I'm also a front end developer working with .NET all the time.

 

.NET is a BASTARD to get to validate. Its possible but its hard work1

 

Visual Studio changes case on things like onClick etc and whilst they
are not biggies they are frustrating. As Chris pointed out it pumps out
heaps of script and getting it to write out nicely formated form
controls can be frustrating.

 

Those templates look interesting, thanks Tatham. 


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RE: [WSG] a a:hover

2008-03-20 Thread Peter Goddard
Try:

 

lia href=http://www.bittencourtlopes.com.br/; target=_blank 
title=Launch class=launchemLaunch/em/a/li

 

or

 

in stylesheet

 

li.launch a:hover

 

HTH

 

Peter Goddard

Developer/Programmer

PSI Global Ltd, Bowburn, Durham DH6 5AD, UK
T: +44 (0) 191 3774742
F: +44 (0) 191 3770769
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 






From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Laert Jansen
Sent: 20 March 2008 15:35
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] a a:hover

 

Olá! :)

I´m trying this: 

a.launch:hover {
color:#FF7400;
text-decoration:underline;
}


and html

li class=launcha href=http://www.bittencourtlopes.com.br/; 
target=_blank title=LaunchemLaunch/em/a/li

but is not working...Where´s my mistake? 

Thanks a lot!





On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:17 PM, Martin Heiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Olá!


on Thursday, March 20, 2008 at 15:38 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote:

 and the html where the word launch should have another a a:hover

 div class=menu
 ul
 liBittencourt Lopes/li
 lispanRole./spanWebsite design/li
 lispanAgency./spana
 href=http://www.220i.com.br;
target=_blank220i/a/li
 lia href=http://www.bittencourtlopes.com.br/;
 target=_blank title=LaunchemLaunch/em/a/li
 /ul
 /div

 How do I apply a different a ahover to this link?

If this hover should apply to all links under div.menu try:

div.menu a:hover {}

or give the link a class and define:

a.newclass:hover {}

regards

 Martin








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-- 
Laert Jansen
www.laertjansen.com

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RE: [WSG] Idiot's guide to JavaScript

2007-11-27 Thread Peter Goddard
I would endorse any recommendations for Jeremy Keith's book. Superb
stuff!

I would say it's a great place to start. You need to understand all the
issues he raises such as degradation (in the event of the client having
JS switched off in the browser etc. 

JK just has such a good way of explaining a good DOM scripting approach.

Sorry, I don't know the book you have.

HTH

Peter Goddard
Developer/Programmer

PSI Global Ltd, Bowburn, Durham DH6 5AD, UK
T: +44 (0) 191 3774742
F: +44 (0) 191 3770769
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rick Lecoat
Sent: 27 November 2007 14:05
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] Idiot's guide to JavaScript

On 27/11/07 (13:17) James said:

Hi Rick,

I can't comment on the Visual Quickstart book as I haven't read it, but
having only just started really looking at Javascript myself, I can
vouch for Jeremy Keith's book being very good indeed. I have found it
very easy to read (each chapter takes about 20-30 minutes to go through
properly) and it has meant I have been able to implement unobtrusive
DOM
scripting to enhance pages and solve problems I've had hanging around
for ages.

I would suggest that even if the Visual Quickstart book is good, that
it
may be worth spending the time with the Keith book too.

Hope that helps,

James

Thanks James, that's really helpful.

I think I already know that I'm going to be buying Jeremy Keith's book,
truth be told (having been looking at a bunch of reviews of it on Amazon
etc since I posted to the list). Still, if anyone has an opinion on the
Visual Quickstart book as well, I'd be interested to hear it, just so I
know whether it's worth glancing at *at all*.

-- 
Rick Lecoat



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RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard
Dear Kevin

I'm a .net developer, working entirely in web standards and producing
semantically correct xhtml output from server side code. There is little
or no exra effort required to produce output on a web page (in ASP.NET -
a web form) that meets web standards. Your developer can output data to
the user interface using a Repeater control and item templates that you
can format for him. You don't need to develop composite controls for
this, although you can. In any event, if the output needs to be
formatted in a composite control then all well and good. This is just
extending the maintainability and reuse that both css in design and
object oriented code development (all .net is OO) promote. This concept
is tried and tested. The developer is essentially crossing boundaries
here. If he cannot accept the extra effort required to bring an .aspx
page into the design that you have produced, why not suggest that you
sit with him and iron out the bugs. I would even suggest that you
consider picking up the basics of aspx page development, not the code,
but the web controls that are available in .net and see if you can
suggest how you can work more closely on the output generated by the
server to ensure that he understands the benefits of a collaboration. 

I'm in the fortunate (IMHO) position of working on both aspects of the
web application, so I understand the dichotomy that exists in this
scenario. Basically, a coder is mostly concerned with the complex wiring
of an application and is basically satisfied that the application runs
correctly, behaves according to the specification and handles errors
gracefully, whilst operating as efficiently as the server environment
allows. The designer is anxious to control the output to the user
interface and to ensure this meets the design brief. The two parties are
really working towards the same goal. They just start from opposite ends
of the process. 

From what you say, selling the concept of web standards to the developer
is not going to be the answer. Instead try to encourage him to work with
you and ask him to help you understand the issues he faces. 

If you go to the meeting on Monday expecting a bloodbath, that is what
will happen irrespective of what attitude the developer brings to the
table. It will do neither you nor the developer any good if this
happens, and the cause of web standards will not have won any support. I
urge you to believe strongly enough in your arguments to not wield them
as a weapon. 

Believe it or not, Microsoft, who get plenty of criticism (sometimes
justifiably) have made all the tools available to developers to build
standards compliant applications. The Developer Qualifiactions (MCAD,
MCSD and the new Microsoft .net exams) all promote web standards based
application development. If the developer has chosen to work with this
technology, encourage him to embrace the principles of good application
design.

I wish you all the very best with this.

If I can be of any help please contact me off list.

Peter Goddard
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: 16 March 2006 22:03
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .net question

thanks geoff, i guess thats i will have to be level headed in my
aproach.

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RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard
 I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about
standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

Nice one Ben! Sack the designer!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Wong
Sent: 16 March 2006 23:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .net question

On 3/17/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you would like to see some examples of what im talking about heres 
 one of the 1st sites i did with the programmer in question. notice the

 special offers section and the reservations  form-when he got it there

 wasnt a table in site.
 http://www.shandonhotel.com/

What's wrong with the special offers section? I would've done it as a
table too. Maybe you could use a table, but it looks enough like
tablular data to use a table. I'm with you on the reservations form
though. I assume the programmer's done it as a user control if he's any
good.

Using a definition list for the content in the middle is going a bit
overboard, isn't it?

Personally, I don't see much evidence of him hacking up your design in
the site, apart from the reservation form. It could be much, much worse.

I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about
standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard
Thanks Ben

ASP.NET 2.0 makes this so much easier!

ATB

Peter 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Wong
Sent: 17 March 2006 10:38
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .net question

On 3/17/06, Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
 problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about

 standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

 Nice one Ben! Sack the designer!


Awww, I'm not that harsh. I'll give him some time to steer away from the
dark side. I've managed to stop him from using tables for structuring
the site. I'm working on weening him off using them for forms.

Anyway, I agree with your advice to Kevin. It would probably be good to
get involved in the coding up of your design in ASP.NET. You wouldn't
have to go all the way and become a full-on ASP.NET guru, just learn the
basic server controls and how they are rendered in the browser.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard



Hi Peter

Its pleasing that mysuggestion seems to be making 
sense, given that i am a stand alone developer in a small company and its my 
first .net role!

I think you are absolutely right, Peter, and your clear 
example illustrates that collaboration wins every time!

Lets all wish Kevin the best of luck in sorting out this 
issue. 

All the best

Peter Goddard



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter 
OtterySent: 17 March 2006 10:48To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] .net 
question
Peter Goddard wrote:
-- I would even suggest that 
you-- consider picking up the basics of aspx page development, not the 
code,-- but the web controls that are available in .net and see if you 
can -- suggest how you can work more closely ...a great 
informative post Peter.Another vote here for the collaborative 
approach.I was in a similar situation with a .NET dev guy and took the "what 
can I do to make this easier for you" approach to the meeting. He ended up 
installing Visual Studio on my machine, pointed me in the direction of the 
templates  repeatable elements, and I looked after all the html/css 
framework for him. the collaboration had other knock-on positive side effects 
and he's now an avid css advocate :) cheers,pete 
o


RE: [WSG] ASP, PHP and Ruby - oh my!

2006-01-26 Thread Peter Goddard
I'll echo Wayne's comment. Has nobody heard of ASP.Net or .NET 2.0
Framework. It's the only serious rival to Java and PHP. 

If you are developing server side code then .NET/Java/PHP are the way to
go. If you want a rich user experience with application like UI then
ajax/atlas will interface with the server side code without posting back
to the server and refreshing the page. The only limit is your
imagination!

All of this can produce standards based semantically correct output with
a rich UI. I think this is a reasonable expectation for larger
developments but it will filter down to small projects too in time.

Oh ... Someone already called it Web 2.0! Hype maybe, but all of this
combined is what we all will be doing before long. I don't consider this
to be off topic. Surely standards are there to preserve the user
experience.

Oh and BTW. If anyone wants to pay for me to take a course in Ruby,
I'll happily change my arguments :) 

So that makes you qualified to speak then?

Hmm

Peter



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sent: 26 January 2006 14:50
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] ASP, PHP and Ruby - oh my!

Guys and Gals,

There's certainly a mass of hype surrounding Ruby these days.

It raises this question for me.

I usually still use classic ASP for my server-side stuff, but have begun
playing with PHP as well, since ASP is obviously over whether its a good
tool or not.

Now Ruby is pounding on my door, claiming to be the next best thing.

Are many of you already using Ruby?  Thus far, I've only seen that it
increases the add/update/delete coding speed.

If the general feeling among is that this will become the method of
choice in the future, perhaps I should come on board

If you want to keep this list clean, just email me your thoughts if you
like.

Thanks,
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [WSG] No Helpdesk software based on webstandards?

2006-01-10 Thread Peter Goddard
Hi Sander

I had to develop my own in c# asp.net2.0 to ensure standards
compatability. This uses IIS, .net framwork 2.0 and sqlServer 2000.
It didn't take all that long as really it was a request tracking system
rather than a full blown intranet solution. But .net 2.0 is easy to
shape into valid web standards and writes as compliant xhtml 1.1. Its
pretty quick to code as well. I'd suggest a home grown approach if they
can wait while you specify, model and code.

Unfortunately, my employers own the intellectual copyright so I can't
pass it on.

You could check out the dotnetnuke portal modules to see if any can be
adapted.

Good luck!

Peter 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sander van Dragt
Sent: 10 January 2006 15:28
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] No Helpdesk software based on webstandards?

Hello list,
For the college I am working for I am looking for new helpdesk software
for internal use on the college intranet. However I am unable to find
any solution that's based on webstandards, the code on all software that
we've come across is horribly and I would spent too much time cleaning
up everything to consider it.

Google search for 'helpdesk webstandards' doesn't turn up anything
either, it seems the helpdesk software creators live seperated from the
webstandards. Therefore as a last resort I was hoping perhaps one of the
people here would have some experience of the software I look for.

Preferably it could be based on IIS, ASP, SQL Server but alternatives
will be considered, seeing as there aren't many contenders.
--
Best regards,
Sander van Dragt
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RE: [WSG] Standards and The DataGrid

2005-11-08 Thread Peter Goddard



Chris

Could you give me an example of what you are providing and 
what styles they are referring to. Is it a table css formatting issue or an 
output issue. 

could you provide a copy of the Datagrid declaration and 
the html output which the client has issue with.

Please contact me off list if you would 
like.

regards

Peter


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris 
KennonSent: 07 November 2005 17:07To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Standards and The 
DataGrid
Hi,

The client is having trouble:


"Just to update you, we're having some issues making your styles work 
within
the program, as the generated table does not have TD's and TH's in 
the
traditional sense per se."

The application is running on IE 6.

Thanks,
Christopher Kennon


On Nov 7, 2005, at 6:18 AM, Peter Goddard wrote:

  Chris
  
  Just off the top of my head, but .net 2.0 offers the new GridView 
  web
  control and most output I have tested in .net 2.0 has been 
compliant
  markup, if a little verbose. The DataGrid was a web control offered 
  as
  part of .net 1.x and has now been replaced by the GridView. Most of 
  the
  enhancements are to do with easier databinding routines and the the 
  new
  declarative datasource controls.
  
  What issues with table markup does your client think they have? The 
  data
  returned to a databound control is ideal for presentation on a 
  tabular
  format. It is, after all a table of data that is being 
  diplayed.
  
  If you have issues with the DataGrid, why not grab back control of 
  the
  output in a Repeater control. There are even scripts that will 
allow
  paging with the repeater. Check out 4guysfromrolla or msdn. I 
  wouldn't
  like to script sorting on columns however.
  
  HTH
  
  Peter
  
  
  
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  On Behalf Of Chris Kennon
  Sent: 07 November 2005 13:54
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Subject: [WSG] Standards and The DataGrid
  
  Hi,
  
  Can someone offer standards based guidelines when working with the 
  
  MS .Net's standard grid component. According to my client 
this
  component has issues with td  th elements.
  
  Respectfully,
  Chris
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RE: [WSG] Standards and The DataGrid

2005-11-07 Thread Peter Goddard
Chris

Just off the top of my head, but .net 2.0 offers the new GridView web
control and most output I have tested in .net 2.0 has been compliant
markup, if a little verbose. The DataGrid was a web control offered as
part of .net 1.x and has now been replaced by the GridView. Most of the
enhancements are to do with easier databinding routines and the the new
declarative datasource controls. 

What issues with table markup does your client think they have? The data
returned to a databound control is ideal for presentation on a tabular
format. It is, after all a table of data that is being diplayed. 

If you have issues with the DataGrid, why not grab back control of the
output in a Repeater control. There are even scripts that will allow
paging with the repeater. Check out 4guysfromrolla or msdn. I wouldn't
like to script sorting on columns however.

HTH

Peter 

  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Kennon
Sent: 07 November 2005 13:54
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Standards and The DataGrid

Hi,

Can someone offer standards based guidelines when working with the   
MS .Net's standard grid component.  According to my client this
component has issues with td  th elements.

Respectfully,
Chris
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RE: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE - amended

2005-10-10 Thread Peter Goddard
Mary

Do you have a border on the a:link element? I think the bouncing is
because all the link styles should have bottom border (even if the color
is transparent) although a pale gray would look nice, which goes darker
on rollover.

#navlist a 
{
text-align: left;
margin-right: 10px;
display:block;
float:left;
}

#navlist a:link, #navlist a:visited
{
border-bottom: 2px solid transparent;
}

#navlist a:hover, #navlist a:active
{
border-bottom: 2px solid #color of your choice;
}

HTH

Peter


 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary Wright
Sent: 10 October 2005 16:11
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE - amended

Ah, the logo has appeared again now. Image is still jumping, tho'.

Mary

On 10 Oct 2005, at 15:23, Graham Cook wrote:

 You need to change your  navlist a  as follows

 #navlist a {
  text-align: left;
  margin-right: 10px;
   display:block;
  float:left;
  }
 Graham Cook
 UA Oz

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Mary Wright
 Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 11:41 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE

 Hi,

 I'm starting a new website and have a border-bottom style on the 
 a:hover menu links. It works perfectly in Safari but doesn't show up 
 at all in MSIE on the PC. Would a kind person take a look and tell me 
 where I'm going wrong?

 The page is at www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge, css at 
 www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge/css/basic.css. Both validate.

 Many thanks,

 Mary

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RE: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.

2005-08-17 Thread Peter Goddard
Stephen

Nice design, and great work. Is the curve at the bottom of the page parallel 
with the curve on the banner? It looks slightly out to me but it could just be 
my eyesight! Lol

Always pleasing to see good UK design.

Well done!

Peter 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Francis 
Johnson
Sent: 17 August 2005 15:32
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.

Hi all, I have been a lurker on this list for a short while. I have a request 
regarding a web site that I have been working on. The site can be found at:

http://www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/

I am looking for general comments regarding this site, its functionality and 
usability. If there are any glaring issues that can be seen at a glance,or any 
comments that arise from a quick look at the site design, I would very much 
appreciate hearing them. Thanks in advanced to any takers.

Regards
Stephen Johnson
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RE: [WSG] Does anyone still design for 640x480?

2005-08-03 Thread Peter Goddard
For what its worth..

I'm developing an intranet solution for a manufacturing company. Whilst all 
users have screens capable of at least 1024 x 768 or even higher a few 'older' 
users typically set their monitors at 800 x 600 which restricts my application 
to a fixed width 700+px container div centred in the browser window. Many of 
the applications would be easier to design for 1024 res as the controls needed 
are hard to squeeze into a two col layout. Its frustrating because as a company 
we will not force them to use 1024 as minimum. 

I guess its down to what the client wants.

As far as 640 x 480 ... I'd have to say no! I haven't come across a requirement 
to do this myself on either small or larger projects. 

Peter

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Philippe 
Wittenbergh
Sent: 03 August 2005 14:34
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Does anyone still design for 640x480?


On 3 Aug 2005, at 8:58 pm, Michael Kear wrote:

 For example, I usually design pages that work well in screens 800x600 
 or larger but in smaller screens, everything will be there but if 
 lines have wrapped horribly or tabs and boxes have dropped down to a 
 new line, I'm not going to worry.


 Is that what you are all doing nowdays?   What sizes are you designing 
 for?

Besides desktop/laptop computers with ever wider screen resolution (but that 
doesn't mean people will have their browser window maximalised), there are 
other players on the market.

Sony last week released a patch/firmware upgrade for their PSP Game console. 
Guess what ? It includes a browser [1].
Max width of the screen is 480px. Depending on your target audience, you might 
want to think about it.

Or people have their MacMini connected to a TV, and then sit away from it, like 
you would be watching TV, find your text pretty small, and zoom up a few 
notches.

[1] browser is the Japanese developed Netfront 
http://www.access.co.jp/english/products/nf.html

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://emps.l-c-n.com/

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RE: [WSG] background images fluid

2005-08-01 Thread Peter Goddard
Hi Bruce

I've come up against this myself when going for a liquid 3 column layout with a 
header graphic that I want to span all three columns at the top. You could 
'sniff' the browser width/screen res, but I don't like doing that myself. The 
solutuion I came up with is pretty much the solution that Vicki suggested. 

I think this is a real limitation. Even Eric Meyer's site suffers this 'banner 
won't stretch' problem (try viewing http://www.meyerweb.com/ at 1600px screen 
width to see what I mean). 

The only alternative I have come up with is using a fixed width which sets the 
max width of a container div to the width of the banner.

Strange, this never used to be a problem with table based layouts! Lol ... Only 
kidding!

   

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: 01 August 2005 12:13
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] background images fluid


Andreas Boehmer wrote:

 Can you give an example of what you mean?

A header or banner at the top. I can put an image in there:
div id=banner
img src=anything.jpg width=100% height=120px alt=mynicebanner / /div

It will size according to the resolution. Stretch and shrink.
But I cannot make it do that in the stylesheet as a background image.
Is there a way?
Thanks everyone for answering, I should have been more specific.

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign Solutions.
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RE: [WSG] Form Builder

2005-07-20 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: Form Builder



Hi Erwin

I see no issues with client side form validation and web 
standards, some validation should always be in place when accepting user input. 
This can either be done on the server (which requires a postback event to be 
triggered which means at least one round trip to the server before the input is 
accepted. On a busy site this would be expensive on resources. Hence, the 
optimum solution is the have the client browser perform validation BEFORE 
submission to the server. The has no impact on the standards applied to the site 
other than the fact that any user feedback (x)html that is generated from the 
_javascript_ should be in a w3c standard for the doctype.

From a security standpoint always validate user input from 
an untrusted source to prevent any client side injection 
attacks.

Personally I would rather develop the validation tools and 
forms myself. As I use .net this is a snip (especially in the beta of asp.net 
2.0 as the markup generated here is xhtml compliant).

It will be interesting to see what others in the group come 
back with.

HTH

Peter Goddard


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erwin 
HeiserSent: 20 July 2005 13:06To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Form 
Builder
Hi all,I stumbled across this Formbuilder 
application this morning:http://www.formassembly.com/Has 
anyone here ever used it on a site?They claim to produce valid forms but 
most of the example forms do not pass the W3C validator.And where does the 
group stand on client-side (_javascript_) form validation?Thanks,Erwin 
Heiser 
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RE: [WSG] A web culture

2005-06-30 Thread Peter Goddard



Hi all

The internet has been instrumental for musicians/artists 
trying to make a living, for those without recording contracts/commissions or 
for those who want to stay independent. The same applies to other art areas. 


Like anything web driven, its out there, all you have to do 
is look for it.

Unsigned bands/singers/composers
Podcasting
Painters
Theatre Groups

All of these take advantage of a wider audience than ever 
before available. We as web-developers/designers are there to help them. If you 
are passionate about any of these things get involved! The extent of this 
goes far beyond a couple of mediocre films. Look at the seed changes in culture 
in web enabled countries, you'll find plenty of evidence that the web has 
changed a great deal about the way we live our lives. 

As far as books go, do an Amazon search for Matt Beaumont, 
he's right there on the button ('E: a novel', the E before Christmas). 


Its a good discussion point, but not for this list perhaps. 


All the best

Peter Goddard


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Piero 
FissoreSent: 30 June 2005 10:31To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] A web 
culture

Why there is not any movie, song or books (novels) that deal about web? I 
mean, it's an instrument that have changed our live (and it will change it 
again). It seams like art isn't interested in.
Why? Why do not exist a web culture?
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RE: [WSG] Urgent navigation problem

2005-04-28 Thread Peter Goddard
Hi Mary

All looks ok to me, have you solved this one?

Peter 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mary Wright
Sent: 28 April 2005 10:49
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Urgent navigation problem

I've just removed the table from the home page to see if that would be a
temporary solution but it didn't work. Now there's a new problem - if
you look at www.ragamuffinbridal.co.uk/pages/resale.html, you'll see a
table of dress details. Each cell should have a pink border, but
suddenly they've disappeared. What's going on?

Mary

On 28 Apr 2005, at 10:22, Mary Wright wrote:

 Can someone help me with a site I'm working on at 
 www.ragamuffinbridal.co.uk. The home page is fine in IE for PC, but in

 the other pages, the navigation style disappears. It's the same in all

 pages when looked at in other PC and Mac browsers. Everything was fine

 until I just updated the home page with a table (Yes, I know I
 shouldn't...) table id=homepage to accommodate the sale button.

 What have I done wrong? This is a live site so if anyone can help me 
 correct things before the client has a fit, I'd be really grateful!

 CSS is at www.ragamuffinbridal.co.uk/styles/first.css

 Mary

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RE: [WSG] Alistapart vs Digital-Web

2005-04-14 Thread Peter Goddard



ALA gets my vote every time, although new article 
submissions are suspended at the moment. Jeffrey Zeldman 
rules!



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Piero 
FissoreSent: 14 April 2005 13:39To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Alistapart vs 
Digital-Web
Alistapart is a leader in wd on-line magazine. But what do you think 
about www.digital-web.com? It's growing 
everyday, maybe the best navigation-system on the web, a nice approach to web 
design, simple and complete.So: what do you think about?:)P.S. Logically, I still love ala.


RE: [WSG] Site Critique

2005-02-22 Thread Peter Goddard
Hi Debra

Overall, a nice design, just one point. In IE6 win xp, the background
image/floorplan in the content area moves when switching between high
contrast/low contrast. I haven't looked into why, no time right now, but
when this has happened to me it's been a background positioning issue.

Good work!

Regards

Peter

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Debra Reese
Sent: 19 February 2005 04:05
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Site Critique

Hi List Members!
Could anyone spare a moment to give some general comments about a site I

am working on?

The site is:
http://marketstreetgrill.net

I'd like to hear from willing Mac users. I am working on a PC.
This is my first public critique ever, so please don't lambaste me for 
any glaring errors. I want to improve, so I'll appreciate your honest 
constructive criticism.
Please e-mail me off-list at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Debra


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RE: [WSG] Any ASP.Net standards people here?

2005-01-27 Thread Peter Goddard
Hi David

Yes another .Net developer here. Just getting to grips with Visual
Studio 2003. I think 2005 version will correct a lot of issues. There
are some useful articles on MSDN too.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: 26 January 2005 17:59
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Any ASP.Net standards people here?

I was just wondering if there are any ASP.Net developers on the list 
other than me...

If there are, you're probably aware of the issues involved with working 
with ASP.Net, such as the server-controls, and the engine overriding the

ID= attribute for elements that have been 'runnated'.

...And any techniques you use to maintain full control over the code

(Btw, if any of you are there, do you have much experience with the 
ASP.Net 1.1 implementation of Master pages?)

Ciao!

--
-David R
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RE: SPAM-LOW: RE: [WSG] .php extension

2005-01-26 Thread Peter Goddard








You seem pretty keen on it. J



Frankly, this is off list, so I am not
going to get into the debate. I have used PHP in the enterprise, but Im
a .NET developer now, and all this

my interpreted/compiled language is
better than yours crap is just nonsense. I couldnt give a damn
what coldfusions user base is, or if it is larger than PHP5.

Id recommend PHP to anyone
wanting to get into Object Oriented programming without their brains exploding!




A transition to a compiled language from
there is relatively painless.



Most of the users of this list are either
struggling with web standards and accessibility and CSS or they already know
their stuff (you know who you are) and want to help those who are struggling.



This doesnt help solve the problem
the original poster had.



If he hasnt given up yet!



Peter





-Original
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of csslist
Sent: 25
 January 2005 09:15
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: re: SPAM-LOW: RE: [WSG]
.php extension



BTW surely you are not suggesting that Coldfusion is
a serious
competitor for PHP5? - not one for this list though? :-)

a serious competitor? haha
php wont catch up to coldfusions user base for a long time and that probably
wont happen at all unless php takes on an underlying structure from either java
or .net.
last stats i saw cfm was pretty far infront
an quite honestly the only real reason i have heard anyone say they dont use
cfm is the cost and for most of us there really is no cost unless ur building
an enterprised sized app then the $1200 is far a bargain in time saved
programming and if it is a enterprised app it most likely wont be done in php
anyway.
i dont see how u can compare php to cfm at all, especially not power wise now
that cfm has a j2ee backbone and can run jsp tags right and has all that java
power to run on not to mention all the new goodies in blackstone (flash forms,
reporting, sms, 1 tag codes for pdf or flashpaper output, etc...)

so usually it comes down to basically ppl being severely under-informed about
coldfusion.
not to mention cfm  flash run hand in hand together, whoo hoo

and u dont have to rely on someones cruddy programming and hacks for things
such as amfphp when its built into cfm

but to each his own :)













From:
Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005
3:43 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: SPAM-LOW: RE: [WSG] .php
extension

If your host has set up Apache correctly, naming the file anything.php
should enable you to view it in your browser. 

Do you have Apache installed on your development machine? 
Does the file work there? 
Have you got the same Apache version as your host? 
Have you got the same version of PHP as your host?
Could you provide a link to the source code?
Have you tried posting to one of the excellent php forums - (eg
Sitepoint.com)

The chances are that your host is running Apache 1.3. with PHP4.

BTW surely you are not suggesting that Coldfusion is a serious
competitor for PHP5? - not one for this list though? :-)

Hope this helps

Peter



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of csslist
Sent: 20 January 2005 22:47
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .php extension

is the page titled index.php or default.php?
if so then u need to have the host set up your site to look for either
one by default and also flush the cash

u should also take a look at coldfusion ;)


-- Original Message --
From: Bruce 
Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:30:45 -0500

Paul wrote:

I have a template that I have created and am creating all my pages
from
that. I have named this file x.html but when I try and rename it to
x.php, because I have some dynamic content on it, nothing displays.
Any
ideas why this happens ?

Paul
 


This may sound dumb, but I switched to php a few times, if you don't 
delete the old html file the browser will pick that up instead. But I'm

sure you thought of that :-)
Bruce Prochnau
www.bkdesign.ca
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RE: [WSG] .php extension

2005-01-25 Thread Peter Goddard
If your host has set up Apache correctly, naming the file anything.php
should enable you to view it in your browser. 

Do you have Apache installed on your development machine? 
Does the file work there? 
Have you got the same Apache version as your host? 
Have you got the same version of PHP as your host?
Could you provide a link to the source code?
Have you tried posting to one of the excellent php forums - (eg
Sitepoint.com)

The chances are that your host is running Apache 1.3. with PHP4.

BTW surely you are not suggesting that Coldfusion is a serious
competitor for PHP5? - not one for this list though? :-)

Hope this helps

Peter



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of csslist
Sent: 20 January 2005 22:47
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .php extension

is the page titled index.php or default.php?
if so then u need to have the host set up your site to look for either
one by default and also flush the cash

u should also take a look at coldfusion ;)


-- Original Message --
From: Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Date:  Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:30:45 -0500

Paul wrote:

I have a template that I have created and am creating all my pages
from
that. I have named this file x.html but when I try and rename it to
x.php, because I have some dynamic content on it, nothing displays.
Any
ideas why this happens ?

Paul
  


This may sound dumb, but I switched to php a few times, if you don't 
delete the old html file the browser will pick that up instead. But I'm

sure you thought of that :-)
Bruce Prochnau
www.bkdesign.ca
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RE: [WSG] Tables inside a div

2004-12-21 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] Tables inside a div





Javier


In the html tag type


table id=somename


in the CSS


#somename
{
 width: 90%;
}


that should do it.


If you know the width of the containing div you could always set the width of the #somename to a pixel value.


HTH


Peter Goddard
Web Developer/IT
PSI Global Ltd
Tel +44 (0)191 3770550
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-Original Message-
From: Javier Leyba [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 21 December 2004 10:12
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Tables inside a div



Hi


I've a page with div layouts but inside a div I need to show some data
inside a table.


How could I set table width to be a 90% of div width size ?


If I set a table width=90% it takes a 90% of whole page instead of
div...


Thanks in advance


jl





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RE: [WSG] Site review plz

2004-12-16 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] Site review plz







Dear Jacobus


The site looks good to me. I also followed the link to Catics.


On the about us page you have the word 'ourselfs' (ourselves!) and webstandards is two words not hyphenated either (I hate that). I haven't looked for any more.

Am I too pedantic? You bet I am! If this is your business site, spell check it at least.


Good clear designs and easy to read.


The text sizer is useful, but the white text on the largest size clashes with the gradient background. Perhaps this could be rescaled to be slightly higher so that the text in the footer doesn't overlap the white area.

ATB


Peter


-Original Message-
From: Jacobus van Niekerk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 16 December 2004 08:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Site review plz


Hi all,


The url: http://www.azapi.com/


We are launching a new XHTML/CSS based CMS soon and would really appreciate
your comments. We have launched the brochureware site already, and the CMS
is 99% finished, it will launch mid Jan 2005.


I look forward to your response!


Kind Regards
Jacobus van Niekerk


Creative Consultant



web: http://www.catics.com/ | http://www.freelancecontractors.com
tel: + 27 21 982 7805





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RE: [WSG] 2 columns layout

2004-10-08 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] 2 columns layout





Javier


One technique I have found very useful is called 'Faux Columns' 
Try the following link for a good overview.


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/



Peter Goddard
Web Developer/IT
PSI Global Ltd



-Original Message-
From: Javier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 08 October 2004 10:23
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] 2 columns layout



Hi


I'm a little bit new to css and I'm trying to make my personal blog with a
tableless layout.


I'm made a layout with a centered fixed width div container and two float
div's, one for contents and one one for menu with a different background
color. 


Everything it's ok except when contents column gets larger and then my
design lost the effect I looking for putting a background color in menu
column. Menu column appear like a little rectangle at the top of the right
column.


I decided to make a trick placing a vertically repeated background image in
container div that simulates 2 columns, but Mozilla refuse to show it.. :(


How could I solve this ? It's possible to define a verticall size of a div
?


Thanks in advance


jl




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[WSG] RE: [WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?

2004-10-05 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?





I would discourage anyone from keeping with old mark-up habits where tags are left open. It is a legacy from browsers that ignored such semantics. Don't count on a browsers 'interpretation' of the DOM to get it right, feed the browser good code and it will reward you in the long run. 

It's lazy, it's 1994, don't do it!


Peter Goddard
Web Developer/IT
PSI Global Ltd



-Original Message-
From: Parker Torrence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 05 October 2004 01:19
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?


Yes you can
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html
section 10.2
see DEPRECATED EXAMPLE:


~parker



On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 05:46:20 +1000, Andrew Sione Taumoefolau
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Marky,
 
  My friend is asking me if i can use tags
 
  ul
  ol/ol
  /ul
 
 No, you can't. Unordered lists can only have list items as child
 elements.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Andrew Taumoefolau
 
 
 
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RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

2004-10-05 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts





Just because the table contains links to an edit page doesn't need for it to be defined in a form. Surely the solution is to present the information in a table and then style the 'edit' links with css, taking advantage of the querystring.

Eg:tda href="" title=Edit this itemEdit/a/td


where 'xxx' is the server side file extension and 'nn' is the identifier for the item to be edited.


Then css can be applied by assigning an 'id' to the table itself.
A Contextual selector in action.


CSS:


Table#edit_table a
{
display: block;
border: 2px outset #064;
background-color: #042;
font-weight: bold;
color: #ddd;
text-decoration: none;
/* Optional width attribute */
width: 60px;
}


/* Now Pseudo classes can be used to define the Links behaviour if required... */


table#edit_table a:hover
{
background-color: #546;
color: #fff;
}


If styled this way, any table with the id of edit_table in the site will have links styled as buttons with rollover effects.

As you can see, the edit buttons don't need to be in an HTML form. 
Styling forms is a whole other issue... the thread on that will be very interesting ... anyone care to kick things off

How about a little ...style a login form 'competition'
Two fields and a button. It will be fun to see how everyone approaches it.


Eg...
form method=post
Name:input type=text name=username /
Password:input type=password name=pwd
input type=submit value=Login
/form


Peter Goddard
Web Developer/IT
PSI Global Ltd



-Original Message-
From: Ryan Sabir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 05 October 2004 08:05
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re[2]: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts



RF I vote for it's tabular data - use a table.


Cool, thought so...


I was thinking that because it was more a navigation device to edit
items, rather than a display of tabular information, it would be
better implemented a different way.


at the end of the day its just a table I guess.


thanks! You'll be hearing from me again...



---
Ryan Sabir
Newgency Pty Ltd
2a Broughton St
Paddington 2021
Sydney, Australia
Ph (02) 9331 2133
Fax (02) 9331 5199
Mobile: 0411 512 454
http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig 


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RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

2004-10-05 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts





I see what you are getting at.


I don't see the problem with laying out a form as a table but I would give the table at least an id attribute of, for example formtable.

The alternative is to set the form up in a div of its own and then use span elements to align the label with the input.

form id=inputform
span class=labelName: /span
span class=inputinput type=text name=username //span
br /
span class=labelPassword: /span
span class=inputinput type=password name=pwd //span
/form


CSS: 


form#inputform 
{
display: block;
border: 1px solid #064;
padding: 10px;
font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;
background-color: #ddd;
width: 500px;
}


form#inputform span.label
{
text-align: right;
padding: 5px;
width: 100px;
}


form#inputform span.input
{
text-align: left;
padding: 5px;
width: 250px;
}


input
{
border: 1px solid #064;
width: 200px;
}


Just one approach, but the one I prefer. 


Peter Goddard
Web Developer/IT
PSI Global Ltd



-Original Message-
From: Tony Crockford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 05 October 2004 10:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts


At 09:47 on Tuesday, 05 Oct 2004, Peter Goddard wrote:


 Just because the table contains links to an edit page doesn't need for 
 it to
 be defined in a form. Surely the solution is to present the information 
 in a
 table and then style the 'edit' links with css, taking advantage of the
 querystring.


Sure, that makes sense.


so we're saying it's okay to have a table with buttons in it, but we 
shouldn't have a form laid out as a table semantically speaking.


I'm not trolling, just looking for best practice guidance.


A list of items with edit delete buttons is okay as a table, but the edit 
page should be a form laid out without tables?


;o)


-- 
 listening to: R. Carlos Nakai - Shaman's Call [stopped]


http://wiki.workalone.co.uk
http://www.xebit.net
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RE: [WSG] Semantic status of images in headers

2004-10-04 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] Semantic status of images in headers





Hugh


I think you are right. There is some debate about the use of image replacement techniques and how effective they are from a standards perspective. The best technique I have seen was devised by Todd Fahrner and is detailed at Jeffrey Zeldman's A List Apart.

Try the following links:


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dynatext/
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/
http://www.alistapart.com/authors/toddfahrner/
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/_javascript_replacement/


and Douglas Bowman has his well respected opinion on the matter here:-


http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/replace_text/


HTH


Peter




-Original Message-
From: Hugh Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 04 October 2004 08:55
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Semantic status of images in headers


A client of mine is teaching himself CSS. I took a look at some of his 
code today (at his request) and saw that while he had set up a 
hierarchy of headers (h1, h2, h3) in the HTML, he had done no more than 
put an image inside each of them, with an alt tag. One of them was a 
white rectangle inside the h1 tag, with an alt=Welcome.


My advice to him was that having the h1 tags around images doesn't turn 
them or their alt tags into proper headers. A text reader will still 
read the image as an image, and a web crawler won't find the h1 text 
it's looking for.


Then I had a tiny doubt. I thought it conceivable that an alt tag for 
an image inside an h tag could inherit status from its position. But it 
doesn't does it? Can anyone confirm what I told him?


Example:


h2img src="" alt=A great big foo. width=40px 
height=40px //h2


-Hugh Todd


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RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

2004-10-04 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning





Dear Johnathan


I would recommend you read this short article.


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/doctype/


IMHO the setting of a DOCTYPE is an essential step in the migration to standards based web development. You have a valid point that if you want to simply set a font-family or size attribute for pages, and that is all you want to do, then the doctype you employ is largely irrelevant. But it should be mentioned that it would be unusual in a site's design/re-design, that this is all you want to accomplish with css. To be certain that browsers display the presentational instructions consistently, a doctype is essential to ensure browsers are in 'Standards' mode and not 'quirks' mode. 

Not all browsers implement the css specification fully. We are still stuck with workarounds where browsers get their interpretation of the rules 'wrong'. Even the major browsers interpret the basic box model differently.

Hopefully Mr Zeldman in his article will help make this clear. 


He always makes perfect sense to me.


Peter Goddard
Web Developer/IT
PSI Global Ltd



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 04 October 2004 12:17
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Patrick H. Lauke
Subject: Re: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning


Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 04/10/2004 10:54:20 
AM:


 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  OK, Consider this very simple HTML document:
 ...
  How could leaving out the doctype make such a definite difference to 
such 
  a simple page?
 
 The crucial part of my answer was: If you know for sure that the markup 


 *is going to be invalid*
 
 The example you provide is of valid markup. I tried corrupting the code, 


 but interestingly, on Firefox and Opera, even when the markup is 
 blatantly broken, the doctype keeps the browser in standards mode (or 
 almost-standards mode, as the case may be). Interesting...seems the 
 wrong behaviour to me, but still interesting...


Thanks for the clarification. However, I still don't understand WHY a page 
requires a doctype declaration (in my case HTML 4.0 transitional) just to 
make a font-size style cascade from body through to td.


To recap: here are two pages, identical except for the presence or absence 
of a doctype declaration:
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/doctype.html
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/no_doctype.html


Regards,


Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au




This e-mail message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains 
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RE: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?

2004-10-04 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?





There is no hard and fast rule as the whether tables are 'standards'. It is possible to build site layout using tables and still comply with the 'rules'. The question is whether or not tables should be used at all other than for displaying tabular data.

My particular slant on this is that tables make mark-up meaningless when they are used to layout a page! There is virtually nothing you can't achieve with css-positioning for page layout. If this method is employed it is possible to serve content that is formatted for any viewing media (print/browser/wap/tv/toaster/alarm clock or any other web enabled device yes I know, you can't view web pages on a toaster...yet!) Why would you have to serve a separate page to each device.

IMHO keep tables for data that needs to be presented in a 'tabular' form.


There is nothing wrong with using tables in a standards based environment, pages will validate. But try to navigate a page built with multiple nests of tables in a browser for the visually impaired and you will see what I mean. So how can you satisfy accessibility rules if you use tables. Legislation will tighten on this, I want to be sure I'm ready for it. 

The other main consideration is with regard to ease of maintenance. If a web page contains specific semantically sensible divs such as:-

div id=headerHeader/banner/tagline etc go here/div
div id=navigationLinks go here/div
div id=contentMain page content goes here/div
div id=sidebarExtra information goes here/div
div id=footerYour footer details/div


In this situation anyone maintaining your code can find their way round the page. Redesigning becomes a cinch across a site with many pages. How would you unravel a site with 10,000 pages if it were built with content nested in endless table tags? Standards based development allows you to separate the content from the design. 

As a side note ... this is a standard technique which echoes software development methods used in building more complex web applications where content, presentation, logic and database are all separated from each other (this is called 'n-tier') where each element can be replaced by another without the other elements being effected. An example of this could be that the database back end of an e-commerce site could be based on MySQL but a change in the corporate plan requires a migration to Microsoft SQL Server. The design shouldn't be affected here, only the database connection. If all the mark-up was in one 'spaghetti page' how long would it take to unravel the code and then reassemble? 

For a perfect illustration of why css-positioning wins over table based layout see the CSS ZENGARDEN (http://www.csszengarden.com/) where the same page of mark-up has been altered beyond all recognition just by changing the css and adding a few custom images. 

CSS already offers more than a few rectangular boxes on the page and designers like Doug Bowman, Dave Shea et al are showing the rest of us just what can be achieved.

I believe there is no doubt that table based design will become a thing of the past and I hope that much of what I have said here both makes some sense and also encourages you to explore this exciting area more fully.


Peter Goddard
Web Developer/IT
PSI Global Ltd



-Original Message-
From: Olajide Olaolorun [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 04 October 2004 14:56
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?


Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been
into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would
like to know if it is standards


Thanks


-- 
Personal:
www.olajideolaolorun.com
www.empirex.net


Business:
www.tripleolabs.com
www.tripleostudios.com
www.tripleo.biz


Projects:
www.uniformserver.com
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RE: [WSG] Unwanted extra space

2004-09-29 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] Unwanted extra space





Hi Mary


You have a padding of 10px in the banner div. Also Padding 10px in the navcontainer div. Try altering the padding rule for the navcontainer to:

padding: 0 10px;


if this doesn't shrink the whitespace enough, try the same rule in the banner div as well.


A little trick to help iron out these problems is to apply a single pixel solid border rule around the offending divs using a contrast colour to the main design. If each div has a separate colour code it is easy to see where the offending whitespace is coming from. Once you are happy that you have the issues solved, then remove the borders (you can also even use small margins which can help just to pull everything out a little). Try applying this technique to some old style table based layouts by adding a border attribute to all tables ... its very effective in demonstrating the advantages of css-p over table based layouts to clients.

I haven't tried it on your design but the IE interpretation of the box model could be the culprit of the 15px top margin problem. Try the Tantek Box Model Hack to fix the problem. There is a 'be kind to opera rule' which should follow this in the style sheet just to keep Opera happy.

I haven't found the answer for the whitespace below the footer yet but I'll let you know when I do because its yet to be solved on my current project.

HTH


Peter



-Original Message-
From: Mary Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 29 September 2004 13:28
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Unwanted extra space


I'm just started working on my third table-free website and I'm trying 
to pay attention to standards but I'm stumped by a couple of spacing 
details and would appreciate some help.


See www.zebragraphics.co.uk/ragamuffin. CSS is at 
www.zebragraphics.co.uk/ragamuffin/styles/main.css


First, I have extra space above and below the banner image - I just 
want 10px space, same as at the sides.
Second, I've added a 15px top margin to the content div to get some 
space between the navigation and first heading, but IE6 Windows seems 
to add more. I know, it's Windows, but why this is happening?
Last, IE5.3 Mac adds some white space below the footer, ie between the 
footer background colour and the container div border.


That's it for now except for a very important disclaimer: I did NOT 
choose the name for this company! :-)


Many thanks,


Mary


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RE: [WSG] shrinking p whitespace

2004-09-28 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] shrinking p whitespace





Hi Rick


I have altered the markup as follows:


table id=releases
tr
 thNew video releases (all available in VHS, DVD, and Digital)/th
/tr
tr
 tdh3Electing the President 2004: How the Electoral College Works/h3
 Including footage of the 2004 presidential race, this timely program explains the U.S. election system. It examines the function of the Electoral College from its inception to the present day, the rise of political parties, changes in voter eligibility, the influence of TV. Teacher#146;s Guide. (16 min. Gr. 6-12) /td

/tr
tr
td class=item_tdh3Bullying at School: Decisions and Consequences/h3
Harassment by classmates drives a boy to an act of violence against one of them that leads to his being charged with assault. Issues raised stimulate discussion about emotional and physical bullying, conflict resolution, and violence prevention. Discussion Guide. (12 min. Gr. 5-8, Adult) /td

/tr
tr
tdh3img src="" alt= height=83 width=70 align=right border=0 livesrc=images/flag_our_country.jpgOur Country's Flag/h3How did the Stars and Stripes come to be the patriotic symbol of the United States? Beginning with Colonial and Revolutionary War flags, we trace the evolution of our flag as the nation grew. Many actual flags are shown as well as their use in historic events. Teacher#146;s Guide. (12 min. Gr. 3-6)/td

.and so on. This is more semantically correct. The table is showing release details. Once the table has been given an 'id' attribute it is then easy to remove the unnecessary classes which only serve to clutter the markup. Once this has been done then the following styles can be added to the stylesheet. You can control whitespace around the content in the td's by adding padding the their declaration ( ie table#releases td {padding: 3px; }

Here are the styles:


table#releases 
{
padding: 0; 
margin: 0; 
width: 100%;
font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, Swiss, SunSans-Regular, sans-serif; //this only needs to be declared here if it isn't already set in the body styles for the page. It 'cascades' to its children/descendants

}
table#releases th 
{ 
color: #e10372; 
font-weight: bold; 
font-size: 12px; 
text-align: center; 
margin-top: 6px; 
margin-bottom: 6px; 
}
table#releases td h3 
{ 
padding: 0; 
margin: 0; 
color: #0b3e7f; 
font-weight: bold; 
font-size: 11px; 
}
table#releases td 
{ 
color: #0b3e7f; 
font-size: 10px; 
line-height: 11px; 
margin-right: 12px; 
margin-bottom: 6px; 
margin-left: 12px 
}


I have set the font-weight property to bold. This should suffice in most circumstances.


I hope this helps.


Peter Goddard



-Original Message-
From: Rick Faaberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 28 September 2004 11:30
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] shrinking p whitespace


Hi,


This is my first request for help to this list I think. Hope it's
appropriate since it's kind of a CSS help thing but I can't bear going back
on css-discuss if you know what I mean. ;-)


At here:


 http://www.lucernemedia.com/


I'm trying to shrink the whitespace after the video titles (.video_title is
the relevant style I'm pretty sure).


See anything obvious that's keeping the whitespace so big after the titles?


Stylesheet here:


 http://www.lucernemedia.com/css/newestbase.css


CSS and markup mainly validate, with a few margin errors perhaps.


TIA


Rick Faaberg


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RE: [WSG] fixed background...

2004-09-28 Thread Peter Goddard
Title: RE: [WSG] fixed background...





Try the following link, I have used fixed.js and it sorts out ie


http://www.doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html


Peter


-Original Message-
From: Parker Torrence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 28 September 2004 12:49
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] fixed background...


On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:27:43 +0100, john [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ladies and Gentlemen:
 
 I'm attempting my first fixed background, and I have one question and
 need one solution to a problem.
 
 question: is it supposed to work in IE?


It only seems to work for me in IE, if it is the background of body 
Have you tried that yet?


~parker
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