Re: [WSG] XHTML5 polyglot markup and WAI-ARIA, is there a valid way?

2012-07-31 Thread Rob Crowther

On 01/08/12 00:29, Isabel Santos wrote:

I could generate both xml and html but that isn't very elegant,
and would not optimise the resources.


Unless you serve the XHTML files with a MIME type of application/xml or 
application/xhtml+xml, which will break things in IE9, the browser will 
treat all the content as HTML anyway.  This is precisely because of 
XHTML's arbitrary strictness.


http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML#Differences_Between_HTML_and_XHTML

Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] XHTML5 polyglot markup and WAI-ARIA, is there a valid way?

2012-07-30 Thread Rob Crowther

On 26/07/2012 23:41, Isabel Santos wrote:

I decided to use polyglot markup, allthough it involved serving it as
text-html for old trident browsers, to be able to include xml content on
the site (wich I'm still learning).


What XML content do you need to include?  If you just stick to regular 
HTML5 then all the ARIA stuff is valid (with some sanity restrictions) 
and you won't have to work around the strict parsing:


http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#wai-aria

XML elements will be parsed into the HTML5 document tree, albeit 
slightly differently to how an XML document would be parsed, but maybe 
close enough for your purposes depending on what XML you'll be including.


Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] how to force a cache bypass?

2012-07-20 Thread Rob Crowther

On 20/07/2012 17:47, coder wrote:

How can I make a web page appear as the latest version in all browsers,
i.e., perform a cache bypass?  And I don't mean for me - I mean for all
visitors to the page?  Is it possible?
??
Once it's cached in the browser there's not much you can do about it, 
the browser will store the cache settings at the time when it cached the 
page and if those settings say don't check again for a month then, 
generally, it won't.


If you want the page to never be cached then you need to set the expiry 
header.  With Apache servers this is quite straightforward and can 
usually be done in the directory's .htaccess file:


ExpiresByType text/html access plus 0 seconds

This is example was take from HTML5 BoilerPlate:

https://github.com/h5bp/html5-boilerplate/blob/83f4f281866be1cf7f391738c53c448a5ac658e9/.htaccess#L233

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] which tag to use for link to reference?

2012-07-02 Thread Rob Crowther

On 30/06/2012 07:10, tee wrote:

In scholarly paper and report, we often use number (e.g.. 1, 2. 3,  displays in 
sup) in between paragraphs when referencing others' work. What is the name of 
the tag used in such manner in HTML or ebook format?

The microformats community lists a rel=footnote under 'POSH usage' 
on their rel values reference:


http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#POSH_usage

Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread Rob Crowther

On 30/12/2011 12:32, coder wrote:

I just wonder what the view of some 'anti-new windows' folk is towards
using tabs? I would have thought that tabs are the new 'new windows'??

They're still *my* tabs.  I'll open a new one when I want to, not when 
you want to.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread Rob Crowther

On 30/12/11 17:32, coder wrote:


You just aren't getting this, are you Rob.


I beg to differ.


We're talking about what you
do if you don't know there are options.

I provided you links to advice based on research with real users, they 
advocated against opening new windows because it confuses users.  What 
is it you're not getting?


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Rob Crowther

On 29/12/11 17:53, Hassan Schroeder wrote:

Why should *web apps* be unconditionally constrained from the same
context-driven behavior?

You ask an interesting question: are we talking about web apps or web 
sites?  Does the answer make a difference?  Can a user tell the difference?


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Rob Crowther

On 29/12/11 18:02, coder wrote:


Most people don't even know what a back button is!


Apparently most people do:

The Back button is the lifeline of the Web user and the second-most 
used navigation feature (after following hypertext links).


http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html

Though I grant that research from 1999 possibly not the most reliable 
source for current use patterns.  Note that in Windows 7 the back button 
is a primary navigation feature in Explorer and system config stuff.


Interestingly the most recent version of the 'top ten design mistakes' 
article has opening new windows at number 9:


http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Rob Crowther

On 20/12/2011 23:44, Chris Price wrote:

One advantage I can see in
opening a new window (on a larger screen at least) is you can dismiss
the page by closing that window rather than feeling you are being taken
somewhere you don't want to go. Is this context sensitive?

Yes it is context sensitive, and the context which is important is the 
user's.  Since the designer can't know in what context (or for what 
reason) the user is clicking on any given link it is the user who should 
be deciding whether to open the link in a new window or not.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Farewell (was : Out of Office)

2011-12-16 Thread Rob Crowther

On 16/12/2011 10:42, Rick Faircloth wrote:

Why not create a rule to filter out messages with “out of office”

in the subject or text of the message, instead of leaving the

group, entirely.

Well for a start, if you had such a rule you wouldn't have received his 
message.


But if that worked, why not just do that in the list software itself 
instead of having several hundred people install identical rules on 
individual mail clients?


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] setting up visualf web developer with iis

2011-05-25 Thread Rob Crowther

On 25/05/11 05:24, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

tried to build the project, and got a error 86 in the web.confi file,
about autehntification.
and using windows authentification, and sayin needed form authentification.


There are two places where you need to configure authentication:

1. In your project's web.config file there will be an entry like this 
for Windows authentication:


authentication mode=Windows /

If you're not building an intranet application you can change that to be 
mode=Forms or mode=None from within Visual Web Developer.


2. IIS itself has two options for each virtual directory: 'Integrated 
Windows Authentication' which corresponds to mode=Windows in the 
web.config, and 'Anonymous Access' which will work with either 
mode=Forms or mode=None.


The important thing is to make sure the two are in sync.  Here's a 
couple of articles on changing the authentication mode in IIS6, these 
may or may not be appropriate to you depending on which version of 
Windows you are using:


http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/WindowsServer2003/Library/IIS/36ea667e-c578-43b5-87fa-a2f174efb27a.mspx

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/WindowsServer2003/Library/IIS/9ded7af2-fcb7-4ed2-b007-e19f971f6e13.mspx

Hope that helps.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

2011-03-10 Thread Rob Crowther

On 10/03/11 13:17, Anthony Gr. wrote:

I think, it's doesn't work but h2 is not a first child element in
parent element (div).


Yes, the example page contains both positive and negative examples.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

2011-03-06 Thread Rob Crowther

On 06/03/11 20:22, tee wrote:

but I can never get h2:first-child works


Here's an example, specifically using h2 elements since you mentioned them:

http://www.boogdesign.com/examples/css3/first-child.html

By default, every element has a blue border, but any element which is a 
:first-child has a red border:


:first-child {
border: 1px solid red;
}

In addition, h2 elements which are children of #content and first-child 
within their parent have white text on a black background:


#content h2:first-child {
color: #fff;
background: #000;
}

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] attribute selectors to target external and internal links

2010-10-22 Thread Rob Crowther

tee wrote:

I have this:
a[href*=site.com] {color: #e21;background: #555;}

Then I added this thinking this will tell the browser to give external link 
with a white background, but all links are with white background.

[href^=http]{color: #e21;background: #fff;}

The http overrules the one with site.com value.

And if you put the rules in the opposite order, the site.com one will 
override the http one, just the same as if you had two rules for h1 or p 
in your stylesheet.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] HTM5 Semantic markup overly done?

2010-10-01 Thread Rob Crowther

On 01/10/10 20:03, Ted Drake wrote:

I'm on the fence right now about headers.
I've seen use of h2's without a header wrapper in a section. This gives screen 
readers structure, but it breaks the HTML5 outline methodology.
Shouldn't you change it to an h1 when it goes in a header.


The outline is dependent on the sectioning content[1] (article, aside, 
nav, section) - you don't need to wrap an h* element in a header for 
that.


The header is only really needed if you're going to have content that 
isn't a h* element but is still part of the section/article header 
(eg. author byline, publish date etc.).  Wrapping a single h* element 
in a header is technically correct but unnecessary IMO - might be 
useful if you wanted to attach style rules to it.


Rob

[1] 
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#sectioning-content-0



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] CSS support of HTML5 tags not ready yet?

2010-09-29 Thread Rob Crowther

Oliver Boermans wrote:

I don't have any personal experience with this stuff but your
discussion rereminded me of a page I bookmarked recently:
http://jdbartlett.github.com/innershiv/

Yep, that looks like the root of the problem: doesn't work in Internet 
Explorer when an element's content is added with innerHTML /before/ 
being appended to the document


Thanks.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] CSS support of HTML5 tags not ready yet?

2010-09-28 Thread Rob Crowther

Steven Tan wrote:

Also ran into an issue when i was using js templating with html5 tags. Html5 
shiv only ran once when the document loads. Either need call it again or use 
html4 tags. I am choosing html4 tags for now. Sigh.

All the HTML5 shiv is doing is calling document.createElement against a 
list of tag names, there's nothing to stop you running that same code 
before your templating.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] CSS support of HTML5 tags not ready yet?

2010-09-28 Thread Rob Crowther

On 28/09/10 14:10, Steven Tan wrote:

No, it doesn't. But if you use html5 tags in your templating, then it might. 
Just something to watch out for.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying here: no it doesn't what?  It 
might what?



One of my templates create a section and header for about 20 times.

I'm not sure why that would matter?  The main problem the html5shiv is 
trying to solve is that IE doesn't allow CSS to be applied to elements 
it doesn't recognise.  If you call document.createElement('section') and 
document.createElement('header') then, from then onwards, IE will apply 
CSS to section and header elements.  It doesn't matter how many elements 
of any type there are.


Can you be more clear about the problem you encountered?

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] CSS support of HTML5 tags not ready yet?

2010-09-28 Thread Rob Crowther

Steven Tan wrote

So watch out if you rely on js libraries that do something like this:
$(body).append(sectionsomething/section);
$(section).text(new something); // this line will throw an error in IE. 

Hope that makes sense. 



Ah, I understand, interesting.  I've done some example cases:

Base case for reference, loads html5shiv to render static content (works 
in IE8):

http://www.boogdesign.com/examples/html5shiv-static.html

Load html5shiv, create element with jQuery then change with jQuery 
(fails in IE8):

http://www.boogdesign.com/examples/html5shiv-jquery.html

Load html5shiv, use DOM methods to create element, change with jQuery 
(works in IE8):

http://www.boogdesign.com/examples/html5shiv-dom-jquery.html

Load html5shiv, use innerHTML to create element, change with jQuery 
(works in IE8):

http://www.boogdesign.com/examples/html5shiv-inner-jquery.html

So it looks like this is the broken part:

$(body).append(sectionsomething/section);

If you create the element with other methods, the next line works fine.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] CSS support of HTML5 tags not ready yet?

2010-09-28 Thread Rob Crowther

On 28/09/10 23:41, Steven Tan wrote:

Strange, I expected the innerHTML part to fail. Any idea why that works?

Nope! I expected one or the other of the two (DOM and innerHTML) to fail 
as surely jQuery is using one or other of them underneath?


I haven't had time to dig in to the jQuery source and figure out what 
it's doing, but I guess it's wrapping the DOM approach to make it look 
like innerHTML, and something is getting lost in translation.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] CSS support of HTML5 tags not ready yet?

2010-09-27 Thread Rob Crowther

On 27/09/10 22:46, tee wrote:

Are these HTML5 tags inline elements by default or it's that (the latest) 
Firefox and Opera not yet supporting them? I thought they are of block elements.

Firefox 4.0 will have support in the default stylesheet for the new 
HTML5 elements.  It'll also have the HTML5 parser enabled by default, 
enabling inline SVG and MathML:


http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/05/firefox-4-the-html5-parser-inline-svg-speed-and-more/

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] RE: Fonts in MS Publisher compared to onlineRe:

2010-09-15 Thread Rob Crowther

Luke Hoggett wrote:
In some cases client may have to pay (TypeKit) but they do have at least 
have the option of picking a font that is close to what they need.



Also check out FontDeck:

http://fontdeck.com/

You can server the fonts for free to a limited number of IPs without 
buying a subscription, this lets you experiment with some different 
fonts without paying.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread Rob Crowther

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

On 19/08/2010 10:13, David Storey wrote:

So the section or article elements could be taken out of context and
displayed elsewhere but retain their h1 headings.


You could, but I still use the h1 to h2 inside the sections because no
browser uses the sectioning algorithm for thing like styling.


I think Firefox 4.0 will, this will also be the first version of Firefox 
to have the HTML5 parser enabled by default.  Styling is especially fun 
because it's not just sections you have to worry about, several other 
elements also create a new sectioning context.  Life will be made easier 
by the new any() selector:


/* Level 0 */
h1 {
  font-size: 30px;
}
/* Level 1 */
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav) h1 {
  font-size: 25px;
}
/* Level 2 */
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav)
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav) h1 {
  font-size: 20px;
}
/* Level 3 */
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav)
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav)
:-moz-any(section, article, aside, nav) h1 {
  font-size: 15px;
}

https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/:-moz-any

Also worth pointing out that, to my knowledge, no AT/screen reader 
currently supports it either, so this may cause some issues for these 
users at present.


Similarly the native semantics of elements like header and nav don't yet 
have any impact on screen readers which support the similar ARIA roles 
(unless NVDA added support?) so you should add them even when there's 
duplication:


http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/content-models.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-aria

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-19 Thread Rob Crowther

David Storey wrote:


maybe, but any is not backwards compatible so not really an option to 
use any time soon, and is (AFAICT) a Mozilla only extension that is not 
in any specification. As it isn't even in any spec, even if it does get 
accepted by the CSS working group, it will take ages to be specced up, 
refined and included in the other browsers.


I think that its incredible usefulness for this particular scenario will 
lead to very quick uptake by other browser engines as their own HTML5 
parsing support comes online, eg. WebKit switched over (in development 
builds) earlier this month:


http://webkit.org/blog/1273/the-html5-parsing-algorithm/

I'm hopeful standardizing of any (or similar) can go a bit quicker than 
'normal' as the main benefit of this selector is brevity, and the main 
drawback of vendor extensions is the lack of brevity from having to 
state the same thing five times.  I won't be holding my breath, mind you...


This is why I just stick to using the appropriate h* element for the 
section level that stick to h1, as it is more backwards compatible and 
solves all the head scratching.


Of course in practical situations you should just pick and choose the 
parts of HTML5 that work across browsers and are completely backwards 
compatible, but some of us enjoy a bit of head scratching now and again :)


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-18 Thread Rob Crowther

On 18/08/10 17:51, tee wrote:


This example doesn't look very semantic to me :-) Is there a tag that can 
replace or substitute the use of headings?

If you properly nest your section and article elements then you can 
use just h1 everywhere:


section
  h1Monday/h1
  article
h1First post/h1
p...
  /article
  article
h1Second post/h1
p...
  /article
/section
section
  h1Tuesday/h1
  article
h1First post...

The weight of each heading is then determined by the outlining algorithm:

http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#outlines

So the section or article elements could be taken out of context and 
displayed elsewhere but retain their h1 headings.  Is this what you meant?


There was some discussion about replacing h1-6 with, simply, h and 
letting the outline algorithm determine the weight, but this was 
eventually dropped for backwards compatibility reasons.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] Yes or No? HTML5 FOR WEB DESIGNERS

2010-08-18 Thread Rob Crowther

On 18/08/10 21:16, Prisca schmarsow wrote:

See this HTML5 doctor's site article:
http://html5doctor.com/the-hgroup-element/


The example with the strapline that article links to is this:

hgroup
  h1a href=http://miniapps.co.uk/; title=Home 
pagespanMiniApps/span/a/h1
  h2HTML5 apps for Apple iOS, Google Android amp; other mobile 
platforms/h2

/hgroup

Just heading elements as descendants of hgroup, if you want to have 
anything else use header.



I am using it for that purpose. I wanted to give each page/site section
it's own strapline, a page summary if you will... So I felt the hgroup
would give it this meaning rather than classing the entire header as
mere header.


No, it's header that would give that meaning,

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] HTML5 offline storage question

2010-08-14 Thread Rob Crowther

Rob Crowther wrote:
Or, as you say above, does the user 
have to visit each page?  I'll have some time this afternoon so I'll 
probably just try it myself :)


Just wanted to confirm: I tested this last night in Firefox 4.0 beta - 
any manifests linked to in pages downloaded by another manifest file 
don't get processed until the user visits the page in question.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] HTML5 offline storage question

2010-08-13 Thread Rob Crowther

On 13/08/10 05:17, Ryan Seddon wrote:

Yeah that is a good point. Although doing so would require the person to
visit each page which has it's own manifest before it will be cached.

  Have you ever tried caching pages which themselves have manifests?


If you're referring to the page which references the manifest. The page
which calls the manifest is automatically included in the cache.

What I was driving at was if you list in a 'parent' manifest five pages, 
and each of those pages have manifests, does the browser download all 
files in those five manifest files?  Or, as you say above, does the user 
have to visit each page?  I'll have some time this afternoon so I'll 
probably just try it myself :)


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] HTML5 offline storage question

2010-08-12 Thread Rob Crowther

Ryan Seddon wrote:
If you make an update to the manifest file it will 
re-download every asset listed in the manifest.


You can split resources across multiple manifest files, though, as far 
as I can tell, the you only get one manifest per page.  Have you ever 
tried caching pages which themselves have manifests?


I wrote an article way back you might be interested in - 
http://www.thecssninja.com/javascript/how-to-create-offline-webapps-on-the-iphone



Thanks for the article.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] HTML5 offline storage question

2010-08-09 Thread Rob Crowther

Hi Andrew

Andrew Harris wrote:

Is the offline storage tool in HTML5 designed for this sort of heavy lifting?
are there storage limitations?
on an iPad?

Can you confirm, are you referring to Web Storage[1] or Offline 
Resources[2]?  Web Storage is really just cookies on steroids and 
probably isn't what you're after to store large amounts of binary data. 
 Offline Resources may be up to it, it's not clear to me what the 
limits are and I can't find any definitive documentation anywhere, but 
it's a whole different approach[3].


Rob

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/webstorage/
[2] 
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/offline.html#offline
[3] 
http://developer.apple.com/safari/library/documentation/iphone/conceptual/safarijsdatabaseguide/OfflineApplicationCache/OfflineApplicationCache.html



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives

2010-05-18 Thread Rob Crowther

Cesar Raymond Santos wrote:

You may also want to try out:
http://findmebyip.com/litmus/

It looks nice, though I wonder about how they're testing some of their 
stuff.  eg. Chrome 5 apparently has full support for all the new HTML5 
forms stuff, but it doesn't actually offer any UI for things like the 
date fields.


Also may be useful:

http://www.modernizr.com/

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] NVDA-screen reader software for windows

2010-03-12 Thread Rob Crowther

On 12/03/10 19:29, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

If I recall, unless you buy a license, you are not allowed to use Jaws for
testing

Jaws will work for forty minutes without a license, then you have to 
reboot to get another forty minutes.  The license specifically denies 
you using this forty minutes for testing, however:


http://webaim.org/blog/jaws-license-not-developer-friendly/

If you read through the comments, there's a lot of links to alternatives.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] NVDA-screen reader software for windows

2010-03-12 Thread Rob Crowther

On 12/03/10 20:52, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

As a side note, there is a great article on WebAim about how to use NVDA:
http://www.webaim.org/articles/nvda/


Another good article on NVDA here:

http://www.marcozehe.de/articles/how-to-use-nvda-and-firefox-to-test-your-web-pages-for-accessibility/

He also has a number of articles on ARIA and other accessibility topics.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] NVDA-screen reader software for windows

2010-03-12 Thread Rob Crowther

Lorrie Laskey wrote:


Do screen readers exist for Linux operating systems?




Just came across this tutorial for Orca:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9978

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] NVDA-screen reader software for windows

2010-03-11 Thread Rob Crowther

Lorrie Laskey wrote:


Do screen readers exist for Linux operating systems?


Yes, there's Orca for GTK/Gnome:

http://projects.gnome.org/orca/

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] First stab at html5

2009-12-31 Thread Rob Crowther

designer wrote:
If any of you guys are around at this time, I'd be really grateful if 
you could have a look at:


http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/gam/altgam/gwelanmor.html

It is very simple stuff, but I'd be interested if you could see anything 
'wrong'/undesirable/not semantic etc.  For example, is it OK to put a 
menu inside a nav?  Is the flash embedded properly?



 (http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/gam/flash/flashpage.html)

I think menu is supposed to be a widget/app element rather than a 
simple list of links, and using it might cause some unexpected 
consequences down the road.  From 
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html#menus-intro 
:


The menu element is used to define context menus and toolbars.

See also the picture below In a supporting user agent, this might look 
like this.  Just a regular ul would be fine for navigation elements.


But http://html5.validator.nu/ thinks both pages are OK, and they look 
the same in Firefox 3.5 and IE7, so it seems to be good.


Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

2009-10-16 Thread Rob Crowther

Gaspar wrote:

This problem will be solved, I hope, with the use of section and
header in HTML5.

Indeed, in HTML5 the meaning of h1-6 is 'headings for the sections with 
which they are associated' - multiple h1 elements in a page is not a 
problem:


http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/h1.html

A discussion of the impact of this on accessibility in the comments to 
this blog post:


http://www.iheni.com/html-5-to-the-h1-debate-rescue/

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



Re: [WSG] .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict

2008-10-09 Thread Rob Crowther
Peter Goddard wrote:
 It does require more effort than just using the standard control
 toolkits supplied by Microsoft [...] Additionally, there are best
 practices available which enable the  placing of the server
 generated javascript to one area of the page (after the html) and
 JSON/AJAX/MVC Framework techniques which can also help.
 
I think the criticisms leveled at ASP.Net are because, to get it to do
things 'right', you have to go to all this extra effort you describe,
when the supposed benefit of ASP.Net is that it makes life easier by
hiding all this complexity from you and saving you the extra effort.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Dev. For Mobile Browsers

2008-09-13 Thread Rob Crowther

James Jeffery wrote:
Anyone got any good resources on developing for mobile browsers? 


Try http://dev.mobi/

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Google chrome...

2008-09-04 Thread Rob Crowther

Nancy Gill wrote:
I can't figure out why it has to load the process three times in order 
to run.


It runs every tab in a separate process, plus one main one for the 
browser.  This means a crash on a single page won't bring down the whole 
browser, it also means there is, for the first time in a browser, the 
possibility of seeing exactly how much memory and CPU power an 
individual website is using up (right click on the window bar and select 
Task Manager).


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA

2008-08-11 Thread Rob Crowther

David Storey wrote:


thing it adds is giving you more brownie points for validating, while 
not allowing WAI-ARIA to work if JavaScript is turned off.


I would have thought that, if JavaScript was turned off, the ARIA stuff 
wouldn't be too useful.  As its purpose is to communicate dynamic 
changes performed with JS to assistive technologies?  If JS is turned 
off then there's no in page updates and regular WCAG applies?  Does ARIA 
have benefits even to 'static' HTML apps?


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate

2008-06-18 Thread Rob Crowther

James Ellis wrote:
you can run either version from the relevant file 
location, but not at the same time.


You can run any number of versions at the same time, but you have to use 
separate profiles - the profile can only be active in one instance at a 
time.


You have to use the -no-remote command line switch (either on the 
command line or modify the shortcut) and use -P to specify the profile, 
like this:


firefox.exe -no-remote -P default

Will start a separate instance of Firefox with the default profile (if 
it's not already in use), then:


firefox.exe -no-remote -P default30

Will start another separate instance with the default30 profile 
(assuming you've created it).  The proviso is your 'main' version of 
Firefox needs to run without -no-remote if you want the desktop 
integration stuff to work properly, so you have to start that first. 
You can use the -ProfileManager switch to get the dialogue for creating 
new profiles the first time.


Obviously, adjust all the above for file extensions and paths 
appropriate to your platform.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] MA in web development

2008-06-12 Thread Rob Crowther

Jason Grant wrote:

All suggestions are very much appreciated.

You might want to have a look at the MIT Software Engineering for Web 
Applications course for ideas:


http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-171Fall2003/CourseHome/

There's also a book and video lectures available.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Semantic markup for a person's name or business name

2008-03-26 Thread Rob Crowther

Cole Kuryakin wrote:

2. Aside from it's semantic nature, is there really any functional use for
formatting data using microformats? 


For some practical examples of doing stuff with hCard:

Online service to translate hCard into vCard (ie. put directly into your 
contacts application:


http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/

Operator Firefox Add-on to make use of microformatted content from 
directly within the browser:


https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4106

Example code for using hCards to fill in forms:

http://lib.omnia-computing.de/hcardmapper

Also, Technorati make heavy use of microformats (they were the 
originators of several of them):


http://kitchen.technorati.com/search

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Experience with Adobe Contribute

2008-03-02 Thread Rob Crowther

Elizabeth Spiegel wrote:

I understand that Contribute would allow them to make changes to content
without messing with the coding/navigation.  Does anyone have experience
with this product?  Is it possible/easy to set up to maintain
standards-compliance?

You can limit the areas they can edit by using Dreamweaver templates, 
and there are a number of options within Contribute where you force 
standards compliance, but some strange stuff will still happen.  For 
instance, if one of your users decides they want a nice, bright red 
message in the middle of their copy it achieves this by adding a style 
section in the head of the document.  The style section will not be 
automatically removed if the red text is deleted.


As far as I'm aware, though I may be wrong - this was Contribute 3 and I 
didn't look in too much detail, you can't force users to only use styles 
out of your existing stylesheets.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread Rob Crowther

Michael Horowitz wrote:
In the free market their tends to be high and low quality products 


It's not a free market, it's a market for lemons.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Rob Crowther

Michael Horowitz wrote:

It would be a wonderful world.

I can't imagine how government does anything but lower standards in 
these areas.


Assuming you're being serious, I would love to hear your reasoning for 
this.  With most things even remotely technical now happily existing in 
a market for lemons, the general effect of a free market seems to be 
to lower quality to the lowest level allowed by law.  Where does the 
impetus for high standards come from in your imagined utopia?


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Rob Crowther

Mike Brown wrote:
[Mike - see, the problem is this guy is only a part-time web developer. 
If he was full-time, he'd totally have time and be able to solve the 
verbalise the text into every spoken language problem.]




The funny thing for me was his later comment - someone else mentioned 
JAWS, he obviously went away and did some 'research', and from that 
concluded that JAWS required a website built with Active Directory (the 
Microsoft network management system) instead of standard web 
technologies.  But the frightening part about it was that everyone 
seemed to take him seriously and value his 'expertise'.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Web Developer toolbar for firefox 2.x

2007-08-27 Thread Rob Crowther

Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote:
I do not know if this is off topic. If it is please excuse me. I have 
the web developer toolbar that works with Firefox upto 1.5 and when I 
try to upgrade for my Firefox 2.x, I get an error.


What error are you getting?  Web Developer Toolbar works just fine for 
me in Firefox 2.x.


Is their a web 
developer toolbar for Fire fox 2.x? If so, where can I download it? 


The extension can be downloaded from the Mozilla add-ons website:

https://addons.update.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/60

The developer's website is at:

http://chrispederick.com/work/web-developer/

But you will need to add the site the 'exceptions' for being allowed to 
install software.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] When is invalid CSS okay?

2007-08-23 Thread Rob Crowther

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

The hiding effect gained by 'CC' is used by many to justify hacking
and to declare their solutions valid - because the validator doesn't
complain.


It is ultimately laziness, but I don't want to have to expend the mental 
effort to distinguish between invalid CSS that is the result of a 
mistake and invalid CSS that is the result of hacking around IE.  Or put 
another way, I don't want to get into the habit of being used to seeing 
my CSS not validate with the automatic test.


 This works for all browsers - with a bit of care.

I assume here you mean 'all current major desktop browsers'?

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: RES: [WSG] HELP with CSS

2007-07-28 Thread Rob Crowther
SosCpdGMail wrote:
 Hello Ted
 
 There is, somewhere, a reference or tutorial of how can we read and learn
 about the structural way and css? 

I would recommend the Friends of Ed book, HTML Mastery: Semantics,
Standards, and Styling by Paul Haine:

http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590597656

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!

2007-07-20 Thread Rob Crowther

Stuart Foulstone wrote:

PDF is a document file format, not a Web technolgy.  Whilst you may say
that it's use on the Web has become standard that does not make it a Web
Standard (except by some tortuous abuse of semantics).

HTML is a document file format.  While there may be an argument to be 
made that PDF isn't a 'web technology' I don't think this is it.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Re: Microformats was [ Is this a good use of dl ]

2007-07-07 Thread Rob Crowther

Designer wrote:
The hcard example makes every line a div and just seems, 
frankly, daft.


But you don't have to use divs, (nearly) any element will do, the key is 
mostly the class names.  Maybe having a look at some of the 'examples in 
the wild' will be more instructive:


http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild


So what's it all about?


I suggest you have a look at the Operator extension:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4106

(And by 'have a look' I mean install it in Firefox and visit a few 
websites linked to from the microformats site ;) )


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Dutch guild of front-end developers in the making

2007-07-03 Thread Rob Crowther
James Jeffery wrote:
 Interesting, although i didnt read a word of it, its all in dutch, but i
 got the english summary.
 
I tried translating it with Babelfish, the result was somewhat
incoherent but more intelligible (to me) than Dutch.

 As for certification, its useless as one pointed out,

They're not useless, though their main benefit is demonstrating a level
of technical competency to non-technical people - eg. managers, HR
departments and recruiters, rather than as a direct benefit to the
certificate holder.

 technologys on the internet change all the time.

This is simply not true, HTML 4.01 was published in December 1999.  CSS
2.0 was published in May 1998, neither of these are obsolete.  Even in
terms of practical implementations, IE6 was launched in 2001 and not
superseded until late last year.  What changes more frequently is the
more nebulous concept of 'best practice' rather than the standards
themselves, and those, I think, change more gradually over time rather
than the epochal pattern of browser/standards release cycles.

Even if a certificate were only valid for one year it would still have
some long term value - someone with a two year old certification ought
to have more value in a potential employer's eyes than someone who's
never gained any certification at all.

Perhaps the certification process itself should include some portion of
'keeping up' - ie. reading mailing lists and blogs, attending
conferences etc. - similar to professional development programmes that
already exist in management and other parts of IT?

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows

2007-06-14 Thread Rob Crowther

Apple have released a new beta version with security patches:

http://lists.apple.com/archives/Security-announce//2007/Jun/msg0.html

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows

2007-06-12 Thread Rob Crowther

Gary Barber wrote:
Main problem I have with safari is on win xp sp2 none of the fonts it 
wants to use render at all. Makes life very interesting.


I'm getting the same thing - no fonts render at all, including those 
that are part of the chrome, so I can't even type in any URLs...


Pressing the bug report button caused my entire screen to blank out for 
about ten seconds, then it slowly came back a bit at a time but I have a 
black hole (with nicely rounded corners) where Safari used to be.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows

2007-06-12 Thread Rob Crowther

Simon Moss wrote:
FWIW I have been running iTunes and Quicktime on this machine - I wonder 
if that has anything to do with it?


I have Quicktime (which I've tried updating) but not iTunes.  I also 
have Swift (open source webkit based browser) installed which may be 
upsetting things.


I have found a way to get Safari to behave usefully, if not look very 
nice.  Go to the Safari folder in Program Files, look in the 
'Safari.resources' folder and delete the two .ttf files (Lucida Grande 
and Lucida Grande Bold).  Safari will then display text on the web page 
and chrome, but the chrome is all rendered in Times Roman.


Found here:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=993849

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows

2007-06-12 Thread Rob Crowther

Roberto Gorjão wrote:
Well, I have quicktime and iTunes. I don't have Swift. I still got all 
the reported problems in my Win XP SP2: no fonts and crashing bug 
button. And no, deleting the two .ttf files didn't solve it.




I think I've found most of the solution now, following reading this blog 
post:


http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/06/safari-3-is-half-baked-web-browser-from.html

The problem appears to be the Font.plist file which is created as part 
of the user profile.  I replaced mine with a copy from a colleague's 
machine (where it was working perfectly), copied the Lucida fonts back 
in, and now the browser chrome is rendering as expected.  Still get some 
issues with particular fonts on web pages, but the browser chrome now 
looks right.


I suspect the issue might be because I have a big pile of extra fonts 
installed on my machine over and above the standard ones shipped with 
Windows, or because one of those fonts is upsetting Safari, because an 
install I did on a VMWare machine worked fine.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Javascript to check for Handheld Devices

2007-03-01 Thread Rob Crowther

David Storey wrote:
For styling the page handheld stylesheets should be used.  For 
JavaScript issues I don't know of a way to specifically detect if it is 
a handheld, and browser sniffing is far from ideal on mobile due to many 
reasons.


Could you give an element a specific style in the handheld stylesheet 
and then test for that style being applied in the javascript?  I'm 
thinking along the lines of:


in screen.css:
 #checker {width:1px;}

in handheld.css:
 #checker {width:2px;}

in script.js:
 var el = document.getElementById(“checker”);
 if (window.getComputedStyle(el,).getPropertyValue(width) == '2px' )
 {
/* handheld script goes here

No idea if it would execute in whatever handheld browser is needed, and 
my brief research indicates this style grabbing in javascript is a bit 
flaky cross browser even on the desktop, but you might be able to hack 
something together that works a lot of the time.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***