An interesting discussion...
Back in 2006, Roger Hudson, Lisa Miller and I conducted testing on three
aspects associated with screen reader use (skip links, source order and
structural lables).
The findings regarding source order:
t appears that when visiting a web page, most, if not all,
ooops. Reference:
http://usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm#conclusion
t appears that when visiting a web page, most, if not all, screen reader
users expect at least the main site navigation to be presented before the
content of the page. There appears to be little evidence to
In order to comply with Success Criterion 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks – you must
provide a mechanism to “bypass blocks of content that are repeated on multiple
Web pages. (Level A)
One of the “sufficient techniques” recommended by the W3C for bypassing blocks
is the use of skip links.
Your markup should work. For a detailed description, look at
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3
HTML5 has also broadened out the use of the DL:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/
The dl element now represents an association list of name-value groups, and is
no longer said
On 17/05/2012, at 4:23 AM, Rick Hill wrote:
The ideal would be to position the related content at the bottom of the
associate main content and then position it at the top right of the main
content. So visually it would look the same but the HTML reading order and
header nesting would be
user deleted. Ignore. New WSG system coming soon!
On 04/04/2012, at 7:09 PM, sale.jordantradezone wrote:
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I wonder what might gone wrong with my FF, it focuses on input fields.:
address url, google seach and the one in the page.
I say you nuke your FF from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
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On 4/1/2012 3:05 PM, Russ Weakley wrote:
It's April 1st here in Australia :)
Yes, I am well aware of that.
Did not put two and two together.
:p
Apologies all who may have been confused!
The MoreCSS framework is an April Fools Day gift to the web community from the
folks
You have probably seen all sorts of CSS frameworks over the years...
but is this the best CSS framework ever?
http://morecss.org/
:)
Russ
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with
clashes in your CSS and that can make things harder when re-designing.
On 4/1/2012 1:27 PM, Russ Weakley wrote:
You have probably seen all sorts of CSS frameworks over the years...
but is this the best CSS framework ever?
http://morecss.org/
:)
Russ
OK, we hear you all loud and clear and totally agree with all that has been
said (and asked privately by others before).
The fault is, of course, mine... putting off solving the WSG mail list issues...
So here is a call out.
We are thinking of moving the entire system over to mailman. We want
Marvin,
Could you paste any relevant CSS snippets into an email and post to the list as
this may help us determine what you are currently doing and what you may want
to do to solve the problem. Or, point us to a sample page where the problem
exists...
Thanks
Russ
On 15/03/2012, at 4:47 PM,
h1 id=list_titleThe list titleh1
ul aria-labelledby=list_title
li.../li
/ul
That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is kept
which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes?
Cheers,
S
I hate to nit-pick, but I'd argue that the aria-labelledby does not
It might be better to take that sort of discussion off-list.
(so the list is freed up for all of those important out of office emails)
Thanks
Russ
List admin
On 24/02/2012, at 3:07 AM, James O'Neill wrote:
Would you mind recapping the differences and providing some links for me if
you have
Ok, as many have suggested, these discussions are definitely off topic.
Marvin, please confine posts to web standards related topics
Everyone else, if replying, do it offlist.
Apologies all for the recent lack of list management!
Thanks
Russ
On 17/12/2011, at 6:50 PM, Marvin Hunkin
Yes... the topics have gradually been getting more off topic. We will step in
more quickly in future. Apologies all!
Thanks
russ
On 16/12/2011, at 11:04 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
'tis the season for folks on mailing lists to clutter everybody's inbox with
discussions over out of office
Somehow I do not seem to have come across this problem before. I have two
divs, one contained within the other. If the viewport of the browser is
resized to be smaller than the contents of the inner div, the inner div
sticks out the side of the outer container div, which continues to resize
Option 1:
Try making the two chunks of content into two individual paragraphs within the
one cell. It is not the most ideal semantics, though it could be argued that
they are two short paragraphs :)
Depending on how the margins have been defined for your paragraphs, this should
give you 1em
Why not use a list within the table as it is a list of items.
There you go! Option 3 :)
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Think of how two columns work in a table, when they have no specified width.
They adjust to the size of the content and the available width, and wrap
their content if the available width is reduced.
This should be easy in CSS, no?
The simple answer is that floats are not ideal in this
Hey Stevio,
There could be a range of reasons for the select element issue, so the only
answer would be it depends.
In your case, the issue MAY be related to font-size. Browsers may render the
font-size of the select element slightly differently. This could mean that
the em unit applied to
Hey Grant,
Try something like the code below:
1. The table markup is more accessible - th elements are very important for
screen readers
2. There are no presentational attributes (every time we include presentational
attributes, a fairy dies!)
!DOCTYPE html
html lang=en
head
meta
Sorry to rain on the Russ parade, but your example is missing some critical
elements: scope.
The th cells define the cell as a header, but we need to say what it is
heading.
However I think this would also help to use headers, which lets us define at
the td level which th cells are
Hello All -
I've been testing a new version of a legacy project against IE 7, 8 and 9
using IE9's Browser Mode Controls.
This way of switching browser modes (between 7, 8 and 9) is quite convenient
but... is it a true representation of how the project will render in these
three browsers?
Agree. While horrible, the topic is not related to web design, development or
web standards.
THREAD CLOSED
Thanks
Russ
On 03/09/2011, at 12:04 PM, Tom Ditmars zar...@zarggg.net wrote:
On 2011-09-02 20:38, Jay Tanna wrote:
A Southern California disabled man was sentenced Thursday to six
Hi Tee,
Unfortunately, this is a known issue.
Basically, this MS gradient filters will drown out or over-ride borders. You
can see this more dramatically if you apply an MS gradient filter to a box that
also has a border-radius defined. The MS gradient filter will render a gradient
HTML, CSS and JavaScript of course.
Remarkably detailed and insightful help there! ;)
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Please ignore. The user has been deleted form the system.
As you were...
Thanks
Russ
On 22/05/2011, at 8:24 PM, Richard Collmann wrote:
Just how did this get in? And twice?
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On 11/05/2011, at 12:54 PM, huyen tran huyentran1...@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Stefan !
I'm can work SEO very good with cheapest prices.i ' have all severs. Can I
help you? please contact with me This is mail
Hey Caleb,
This is probably one of those case by case decisions. For some small sites,
simple media queries may be fine. However, if you have a large site, or high
levels of mobile traffic, you may want to consider more robust alternatives -
such as device detection etc.
This article is a
This question has come up on CSS discuss in the past.
http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/104705
One answer:
I believe qem stands for quirky em and is a proprietary Webkit syntax
used to refer to a margin which can be collapsed when the page is in
quirks mode.
How weird is that!
own website the right way using HTML and CSS
By Ian Lloyd
One to avoid, as I have heard the author was on crack while writing it:
CSS in Ten minutes
by Russ Weakley
:)
On 06/04/2011, at 8:56 AM, Andrew Staff wrote:
Hello all,
I was wondering if anyone on this distribution list would have
I wouldn't trust w3schools.com (note that it has nothing to do with
the W3C) after looking at their HTML tutorial:
http://cfajohnson.com/torontowebdesign/w3schools/
There is also this site which takes issue with W3schools:
http://w3fools.com/
Personally, I think the approach taken
-top: 1px solid #ddd;
}
3. Both items are floated left. Setting a clear: right will not help or have
any affect here. Clear: right will clear any right floated item above.
Thanks
Russ
--
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433
Our good friend Xiong is no longer with us (on the mailing list at least)
As you were...
Russ
On 30/03/2011, at 3:47 AM, huangmei mei wrote:
hello , my good friend , our is china wholesale brand shoes . pls chack our
site in fo : www.west-trading.com
thanks
xiong
Agree... but support is sadly poor for the seamless attribute.
Here is a quick article on seamless:
iframe scrollbars and borders in HTML5 – working with “seamless”
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2011/03/10/iframe-scrollbars-and-html5/
Thanks
Russ
On 10/03/2011, at 2:47 AM, Jon Reece wrote:
Hi Neeraj,
Some questions:
1. are you also aiming to make the PDF's accessible? (i.e. tagged PDFs)
2. why PDF to Word?
I have found there is little benefit in this type of conversion. I just checked
with a blind user now - asking is there any advantage in Word over PDF?
His answer: If the
it is. Though
others may disagree!
Thanks
Russ
-
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433 980
Email: r...@maxdesign.com.au
Skype: russ-maxdesign
MSN: r...@maxdesign.com.au
Website: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/
Twitter: http://twitter.com
Rather than attach, please send us a link to sample HTML and CSS files
Thanks
Russ
On 11/01/2011, at 8:57 PM, olivia antonin olivianto...@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi there,
I have a real problem with my web pages, basically They don't render the same
in Safari and firefox.
Let me explain to
Hi all,
1. Please reply off list.
2. Jobs should not be posted to the WSG list. Instead, please send all jobs
directly to memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org - they will rhen be sent out with
each weeks links for light reading
Thanks
Russ
On 23/12/2010, at 10:54 AM, Ryan Blunden wrote:
Hi
Why go that far? Why not let this browser see the CSS and fail gracefully - or
semi-gracefully as needed (as long as the content and navigation are accessible
so that the site can be navigated and read).
On 18/12/2010, at 10:20 PM, tee wrote:
I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6
Hi all,
This list is not about jobs or freelance connections. please do all further
communications off list!
Thanks
Russ
On 02/12/2010, at 2:59 PM, Daniel Anderson wrote:
G'day, not sure if I am allowed to ask this on this list or not, but I am
struggling finding someone.
I am in need
Not quite:
http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2010/02/10/5a-missing-schema-double-download/
Yikes! It all seemed so easy... suspiciously easy! :)
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stop sending me emails
We've stopped sending this person emails. no need to comment on this. :)
Continue with this great thread!
Thanks
Russ
BTW, every WSG email that goes out has an unsubscribe link at the bottom.
Better to click that that tell 7,000 people you don't want any emails :)
ADMIN THREAD CLOSED
Hi all,
1. Job ads are not allowed on the mail list (under The mail list does
not cover):
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
2. If anyone has job ads they wish to promote, please email me off-
list. I'm happy to add any job to links for light reading,
now with added longdesc.. ;)
On 18/08/2010, at 1:25 AM, Steven Faulkner wrote:
good places to start with HTML5 are:
HTML: The Markup Language
http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/
HTML5 (Edition for Web Authors)
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
regards
stevef
I rather liked the conditionals around the body. What's not to like?
Imho, it goes against the separation of structure and presentation
(plus it
messes up with the cascade), but I can understand why they are doing
this.
Since most people strongly believe that CSS validation is a must,
What part of thread closed do people not understand?
Lea, I say we take off and nuke the entire list from orbit. It's the
only way to be sure.
Russ
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--
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433 980
Email: r...@maxdesign.com.au
Skype: russ-maxdesign
MSN: r...@maxdesign.com.au
Website: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/russmaxdesign
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/russweakley
Slideshare: http
wow - three answers for the price of one :)
On 06/08/2010, at 3:45 AM, David Storey wrote:
No. the @media all will apply (well if there were any valid rules in
the block). If the specificity is the same (as is the case in this
example) and the query conditions both apply then source
I've just resolved the problem.
No more discussion on this :)
Changing mail lists VERY soon
Russ
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It's still a bit hard to tell without seeing an example. Can you send
a link to a cut down version of what the problem is?
Thanks
Russ
On 21/07/2010, at 3:31 PM, Jayachandran Kandasamy wrote:
Hi Russ,
I tried these CSS 3 properties and tested in the IE7 and Mozilla FF
3.6.6 browser,
Hi JC,
This is a question where a example would help. It all depends on:
1. the element in question (the TD element operates differently to DIV
element in many cases)
2. whether sizing has been applied to the element
3. whether positioning had been applied to the element
4. which browser you
I take my eye off the list for two days
THREAD CLOSED
The guidelines clearly state that no job postings are allowed to the
list - specifically for this reason.
If you want to push a job to all members, send to me and I can send
out with our weekly email.
Thanks
russ
ADMIN - THREAD CLOSED
This thread is closed. Please move along. Nothing to see...
Thanks
Russ
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A good point. I have started tracking IE6 users down on an individual
basis, going to their houses and doing a forced upgrade. It is
labour intensive, but it gets results! ;)
Russ
IE swat team
On 14/06/2010, at 11:31 PM, Edward Lynn wrote:
Hi everyone,
For me the IE6 issue is to a
Hi Rateb BEN MOUSSA
I am not seeing any difference in font size between the sites on
either Mac/FF3.5.7 or Mac/Chrome 5.0.307.9 beta.
Looking in Firebug, I see the body has been set in two places with a
font-size of 12px.
template.css (line 3)
body {
color:#00;
1. Is there a list showing browser support for @media?
Try the ever-helpful Site Point. The chart shows generally good
support (with some caveats):
http://reference.sitepoint.com/css/at-media
The chart mentions IE and Firefox are buggy - but be aware that they
are buggy in the opposite
Hi Tom,
Sorry, I should have provided examples in my last email.
1. Below is a normal CSS rule (like the first rule in the
456bereastreet article) - which does not need a media type to be
defined:
body { background: #fff; }
2. Below is an @media rule, which DOES need a media defined
Looks interesting, Mike :)
For those unfamiliar with Data URI's, it may also be worth taking a
look at this in depth article:
http://www.nczonline.net/blog/2009/10/27/data-uris-explained/
Also Using Data URIs in CSS:
http://nimbupani.com/using-data-uris-in-css.html
Thanks
Russ
Hi all,
My apologies all. This charming individual has been removed from the
list.
No need to comment on this and add unwanted noise to the list...
As you were.
Thanks
russ
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This discussion has been at times interesting (where there was healthy
exchange of info) and worrying (when personal criticisms were used
instead of calm discussions).
However, it looks like this thread has reached a point where we not
gaining anything - just expressing disagreement.
So,
Hi people,
A colleague has just asked me for some examples of Flash sites:
1. examples of flash sites which are not keyboard accessible (and/or
poor tab ordering)
2. examples of flash sites which ARE keyboard accessible
3. examples of flash sites which work well with screen readers
(He is
ADMIN
This discussion is quickly deteriorating into name calling, finger
pointing, etc.
Please return to the discussion, and be respectful of each other -
regardless of your differences of opinion.
Thanks
Russ
***
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Hi all,
Mike Cherim let me know earlier than Jack Pickard, web accessibility
leader and Team Access member passed away very recently, succumbing
to a heart attack (at a young age, leaving behind a young family). He
will be sadly missed by the accessibility community.
Mike also passed on
Hi Marvin,
I've placed two valid examples online for you to check (will stay
online for next 10 days or so only):
HTML: http://maxdesign.com.au/jobs/marvin.htm
CSS: http://maxdesign.com.au/jobs/marvin.css
Can you test these valid files and see if IE8 lets you hear/see the
headings that
OK, everyone... thanks for al the comments but enough. Please lets get
back to discussing web standards, web development design etc.
Thanks
Russ
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Hi Rimantas
Why did I post this link? Because the article has an interesting take
on HTML5.
This does mean that I agree or disagree with the article. I hoped that
the article would lead to discussion and debate. I had also hoped that
any discussion or debate would be conducted in a
ADMIN - No more WAVE giveaways people!
Please do not write to the list offering invites
Please do not write to the list asking for invites
Thanks
Russ
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Google Wave invites are totally off topic - though its great to see
people sharing.
Can we do the following:
1. if you have WAVE invites, feel free to post to the list - just for
today only!
2. anyone asking for WAVE invites to respond directly to the invitee
OFF LIST!
Thanks
Hi Katherine,
This is a case of the specificity, or the weight of one selector
winning over another selector.
You initially apply a rule using this selector:
#navigation ul a { }
You then apply a new rule for the :hover pseudo-class, using this
selector:
#navigation a:hover { }
The
Hey Marvin,
Assuming that an image map must be used, then always include
meaningful alt attribute content (or alt-text) for every area of the
map. The alt-text should clearly explain the purpose of the relevant
area.
Good luck,
Russ
hi.
is image map accessible with jaws?
i need to
ADMIN
Hi all,
The conversation has been great, but we are now heading into heated
discussion and direct attacks - which is unacceptable. Please remain
civil and receptive or the thread will be closed.
Thanks
Russ
(civility police)
Mike,
Sorry, but your statement is incorrect.
The start attribute is allowed in HTML 4.01 Transitional and XHTML
1.0 Transitional
The start attribute is NOT allowed in HTML 4.01 Strict and XHTML 1.0
Strict
Thanks
Russ
On 28/09/2009, at 11:23 PM, Foskett, Mike wrote:
The correct way to
:
I second that.
On the other hand, after looking at a few of the links the first
few times I received those messages, I now delete them unseen.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown
susi...@uq.edu.auwrote:
Hi there
I?d just like to send a big thank you to Russ Weakley
He's gone.
Apologies for the slowness people.
Thanks
Russ
On 12/09/2009, at 3:14 AM, designer wrote:
I thought that folk who sent autoreplies were automatically
unsubscribed? This is the third from Darius Design in as many days,
and I'm getting rather fed up with it. I doubt that I'm
Enough please!
Thanks
Russ
On 04/08/2009, at 7:11 AM, Patrício dos Santos wrote:
LET'S DO
From: inspiron.patters...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:24:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re WSG Digest
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Oh, that is a good point! Let's do!!!
--
Brett P.
On Mon,
Hey Ben,
That additional space you see above the letters is set aside for
diacritical marks (umlaut etc).
If you replace the content within the 23 pixel paragraph with the
content below, you should see that all the special character marks
sit above the letters and fill this empty space.
Is it possible to expand a container's width to fit its content?
For example, if I have a page where the content is wider than the
width available at the browser's current size, which means the
horizontal scrollbar appear, I want the container to expand to fit
the width of the content
Hey Grant,
Ok, this is a hard one to explain simply, but here goes:
Your position: relative container is being affected by margin
escaping (top margins escape out of the parent container), while
your position: absolute container is not being affected.
Here is a more detailed explanation
THREAD CLOSED.
WAAAY OFF TOPIC
Thanks
Russ
On 16/06/2009, at 7:43 PM, Chris Dimmock wrote:
I think the answer is...
Yes, technically, there probably is more fibre nutrition in the
cardboard box
:)
Sent from my iPhone
On 16/06/2009, at 10:51 AM, Mike Kear w...@afpwebworks.com
On 16/4/09 05:56, Gary Barber wrote:
Now it is
h#{
left: -px;
}
that had issues with screen readers.
Interesting. Not in my experience.
What screen readers and versions are you talking about? Do you have
a test case that demonstrates the problem?
I'd agree with Benjamin.
Roger
ADMIN
This thread has deteriorated into slanging match.
Any more and the thread will be closed.
Keep the conversation constructive, helpful, considerate... Like a giant
virtual group hug :0
Thanks
Russ
List admin and group hug evangelist
ADMIN THREAD CLOSED
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This is not the place to discuss such problems.
This mailing list is to be used for discussions
based around Web Standards.
I don't disagree, but darn, web standards related or not I was curious to
see the responses. :(
ADMIN - THREAD CLOSED
All responses can go off list to the original
ADMIN - THREAD CLOSED!
Enough! This discussion has gone on far too long.
Please get back to discussing relevant topics!
As the guidelines state:
Do not post problems or complaints to the list. Instead, email Peter
and Russ off-list (memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org)
Thanks
Russ
Hi Naveen,
Here are some resources to try...
Testing
Try Parallels (though there are others out there apparently equal or
better?). This allows you to install multiple versions of Windows which
means you can test IE6/7/8 in different versions.
http://www.parallels.com/
Hey Brett,
There are many ways to do what you need - so you may not need to use a
multiple class selector at all.
OPTION 1
--
Using the html example you sent in a previous email, you could target
instances of content using descendant selectors based on the parent classes
alone -
Tonight 44 people attended our Sydney WSG meeting - a huge night (where lots
of beer was consumed).
A big thank you to Peter Ottery, who did a fantastic presentation on the
Sydney Morning Herald site and its conversion to full CSS. We will get the
presentation up on the WSG site as soon as
This is a perfect example of tabular data - it is semantically correct
inside a table. Instead of thinking of ways to convert it into divs, you
should be working on implementing accessibility features:
id, headers for, summary, caption, etc.
A rough example if id's and headers in action is here:
Dan Cederholm is the author of Web Standards Solutions: The Markup and Style
Handbook as well as many articles on standards-based design for publications
such as A List Apart . Dan also runs the popular weblog SimpleBits , where
he writes articles and commentary on the web, technology and life.
I think can beat that!
I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with
defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland:
http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149
But that was before we became responsible listparents :)
Russ
I played around with flash - in a wk i
Apologies to all - I seem to have done some thread hijacking of my own!
That off-topic post was made in a flippant mood on Saturday night. The site
in question was taken down a year or two ago, so the games cannot be seen.
However, the front page is still available on the wayback machine (may
Ok, this thread is way off topic now.
As it seems of-interest to a section of members, rather than close it we
have moved it to the discussion room:
http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/17.htm
Any further discussion on this thread can take place in there but NOT on
list.
Thanks
Russ
Joe Clark and Craig Saila have been looking at Canadian Government election
websites from an accessibility point of view - interesting reading
http://blog.fawny.org/2004/06/03/election/
Associated pages:
http://joeclark.org/election/releases/
http://joeclark.org/election/findings/
Mordechai and Rick,
This thread was closed about 10 hours ago by Peter (Listdad)
Please do not continue.
Thanks
Russ
What Rick says is true -- it is illegal for US businesses (including
individuals who freelance) to discuss rates with members of the same
industry. The legal term here is
Hi Sean,
I have been interviewing a range of high profile web developers who have
information that could be of value to WSG members. In each case, I have
approached people, they have not approached me.
I wanted to keep the interviews to 10 questions as I generally do not like
reading interviews
Well... That is slightly incorrect... So far we have done:
Eric Meyer
Keith Robinson
Anne van Kesteren
Nick Finck
Andy Budd
Patrick Griffiths
Simon Willison
None of these people will be presenting at Web Essentials 2004 in Sydney.
Over the coming months I'll be interviewing Dave Shea, then
Don't worry, Man in blue, you are on my to interview list!
:)
Russ
I heard he's a J.D. Salinger-type recluse who only
gives interviews for six figures.
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