Re: [WSG] IE 7.0 Details Begin to Leak

2005-03-15 Thread Ryan Christie
Let the rain of hellfire begin! Though in the past, all they do is weave 
more deceit and under-deliver on release. I read that MS decides to 
introduce more bugs into IE7, and fix none from IE6. Joy.

Nick Lo wrote:
Partner sources say Microsoft is wavering on the extent to which it 
plans to support CSS2 with IE 7.0. Developers have been clamoring for 
Microsoft to update its CSS support to support the latest W3C 
standards for years. But Microsoft is leaning toward adding some 
additional CSS2 support to IE 7.0, but not embracing the standard in 
its entirety, partners say.
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[WSG] List item background disappears in IE6

2004-10-28 Thread Ryan Christie
On the site I'm currently working on, the link image for the farthest
right item (Photo Albums) won't load in IE6, however the block
dimensions for the a tag still show up and don't seem to be reduced at
all.
The logo is a background for the overlay div, and is located beneath the
ul's container. The two divs overlap slightly, but I didn't think this
would cause a problem.
page: http://extrablack.com/test/psycsci/index.html
css: http://extrablack.com/test/psycsci/css/general.css
 http://extrablack.com/test/psycsci/css/ie5pluswin.css
What's causing this? Is there a better way to go about that layout than
what I've done?
-Ryan Christie
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Re: [WSG] Vignette and web standards = disaster?

2004-10-13 Thread Ryan Christie
My experience with Vignette CMS has produced horribly non-standard code, 
regardless of the power behind the CMS itself. Vignette isn't popular 
because it does things right. Frankly, I just think it's popular because 
it costs an arm and leg to use, so hell -- it has to be good! right!?

;)
Ian Fenn wrote:
Hello,
Help!
I'm working on a major website and getting the problem Douglas Bowman
describes here:
http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2002/10/09/cms_troubles.html
Any anyone here faced this problem and been able to fix it?
Douglas clearly managed to - wired.com did indeed relaunch - but I'm
awaiting his reply. It has been a day or so and I'm up against a tight
deadline :-(
If anyone can shed light, I'd be enormously grateful.
All the best,
--
Ian Fenn
Chopstix Media
http://www.chopstixmedia.com/
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Re: [WSG] about.com's Web standards article

2004-10-11 Thread Ryan Christie
Nothing wrong with using WYSIWYGs - so long as they are standards-compliant. I tell 
you what - if you can get our WYSIWYG to create non-standards compliant markup, we'll 
get you a Firefox t-shirt. Use the link below, this version will run in Firefox PR1:
http://xstandard.com/misc/beta/x-pro.exe
Aaron won't be getting a t-shirt :) I've tried in the past! X-Standard 
doesn't carry the stigma of a traditional WYSIWYG, but it is a visual 
editor.

Anyway, Jennifer Kyrnin is obviously a novice, hasn't researched the 
benfits outside her little world, and is probably an advisor for the 
MS/IE team ;)

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Re: [WSG] box model hack question

2004-10-11 Thread Ryan Christie
I'm getting a little confused with when to use the following hack:
width:760px;
\width:770px;
w\idth:760px
Is it something that should be used on every container/wrapper?  What
happens if I don't use it?  I've seen some CSS on sites that use it
everwhere and then others that don't...
Hi Helen.
I'm not too sure that's a valid hack itself, though it might work.
Width hacks like that are targeted at Internet Explorer, because of the 
incorrect way IE handles the CSS box model concerning borders and 
padding. You can read about (and view in action if you're browsing with 
IE) the IE box model bug at 
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html ...

There's also a valid mehtod of using such a hack as well as explanation 
of under what circumstances to use it.

HTH!
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Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea

2004-10-03 Thread Ryan Christie
I really need to move to Australia. I know that if I manage to catch a 
plane there, I won't have enough money to make it back to the US anyway. 
Any Melbies who don't show for Shea and Bowman are insane!

afdesign wrote:
The WSG informal pub meetup scheduled for Monday October 4 has now been 
moved to Tuesday October 5.

This is becasue Dave Shea and Doug Bowman will be in Melbourne on 
Tuesday evening. The venue will likely be a pub from 6.30pm onwards but 
details are still being worked out.

For those in Melbourne that couldn't get to WE04, this is a great 
opportunity to get face to face contact with two extraordinary people.

WSG Co-Chairs Peter Firminger and Russ Weakley will also be flying down.
So Tuesday evening free and spread the word around to colleagues and 
other lists you may be on.

As with all are meetings here in Melbourne this is open to WSG members 
and non-members alike.

Keep posted to this page for more information:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event19.cfm
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Re: [WSG] gBrowser from Google

2004-09-28 Thread Ryan Christie
Well, I did manage to get a warning from Google that our service 
(GMail) may not look right because you aren't using IE message, so the 
hopes of them NOT using IE as a backend? Slim. Corporations like Google 
are probably going to jump on ease of use and/or popularity.

Still, it'd be nice to have gecko running the show. It'll suck if 
gBrowser turns out to be some craptastic IE wrapper like CrazyBrowser. 
Oh, the numbers of people who refer to CrazyBrowser as an actual browser 
is frightening.

Don't these people wonder why it is that having IE6 installed is a 
requirement to run it's software?!

*palm to the forehead*
Webstandards wrote:
Hi everyone
I was recently told by a friend that there is talk of a browser to be 
released soon by Google called gBrowser

I have googled for any news on it, and what support for standards it may 
have, but haven't really heard much..

To keep on topic, has anyone heard whether it will follow standards at 
all?? Or will it do a Netscape and use Mozilla and add extras on top?

Their toolbar is IE only (a Mozilla version project at 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/google-toolbar/ has not moved in ages), 
so I am hoping they aren't going to base on IE

With the number of gmail accounts going about, I can only think what a 
few gmail plug-ins to a gBrowser can do, before nearly every desktop 
will have it installed.

Ralph
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Re: [WSG] AOHell

2004-09-28 Thread Ryan Christie
AOL browser is uses the IE engine, does it not?
Ted Drake wrote:
In a developers meeting today I was asked about AOL, should we test with it... 

What do you do?  What considerations are there for AOl?
Ted
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Re: [WSG] Just for fun

2004-09-26 Thread Ryan Christie
 How does one acquire such stats, from the ISP or client-side utility?
I just use the find  replace method in Dreamweaver MX 2004 and count 
the instances of any given tag :) Probably not the best way to parse a 
HTML file, but It works.

Bert had mentioned there was a lot of DIVs, I'll just clarify:
I needed to use a couple extra to clear float instances in order for the 
site to appear correctly in Mac IE 5. If I changed the hack empty divs 
over to like hr tags, there would have been a few less.

Not counting the container div which makes up level one and keeps the 
site together, the rest of the DIV were necessary to produce the 
3-column layout, keeping the center content at the top of the page and 
the navigation second. There are also extra DIV to emulate the boxes 
down the middle column. It wasn't redesign, just some emulation.

Going back I could probably shave off some DIV here and there using 
spans or something instead, but the HTML underneath compartively to the 
original is quite readable. The nesting produced no load lag from any 
browsers. By far, not a perfect conversion, but not bad for a first and 
only pass at it.

Chris Kennon wrote:
Original snapshot : http://theward.net/examples/chiefs.htm
Revised: http://theward.net/examples/chiefstandards.htm
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[WSG] Just for fun

2004-09-25 Thread Ryan Christie
I was taking requests to do a mock-up of a tables site into a CSS layout 
last week because the office was pretty slow all of Friday. I figured 
I'd share the outcome with the group.

Original Stats:
Tables: 31
Font Tags: 294
DIVs: 167
HTML size: 68.4kb
New Stats:
Tables: 3
Font Tags: 0
DIVs: 38
HTML size: 17.0kb
CSS size: 5.29kb
Original snapshot : http://theward.net/examples/chiefs.htm
Revised: http://theward.net/examples/chiefstandards.htm
There's a list that doesn't want to behave itself in IE, but other than 
that it came out alright. It was friendly in all the Mac and Win 
browsers I tested it in. Enjoy :)
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Re: [WSG] New website launch

2004-09-20 Thread Ryan Christie
This seems weird to me as the layout uses a fixed width centred div of
700px and html has min-width:700px specified + there's an extra
div#mozscroll which is also 700px so the browser really ought to add
scrollbars when its width falls below 700px ... or am I
misinterpreting min-width? Any ideas anyone?
James
That wort of seems like beating a dead horse right there. If something 
has width:700px;, declaring min-width:700px; defeats the purpose. 
min-width is the maximum allowed shrinkage a site will allow with a 
resized browser window *before* it will not shrink further and adds in 
scrollbars. To be effwctive in this case, the min-width would need to be 
a smaller value than 700px.

As for div#mozscroll, it doesn't sound absolutely necessary to be there.
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Re: [WSG] css validation error

2004-09-20 Thread Ryan Christie
font: [italics/bold/etc] [size]/[line-height] [two 
words],[fam2],[fam3],[etc];

Kevin Futter wrote:
My understanding was that there shouldn't be a comma in the shorthand font
selector after Trebuchet MS (but I could be wrong ...).
Cheers,
Kevin Futter
On 20/9/04 4:26 PM, John Oxton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Maybe you could try not using the font shorthand to get it to validate,
try it as font-family etc. Could it be that there is something missing
from that rule? Certainly one I have had problem with before.
Cameron Muir wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out John - serves me right for not cleaning out
disused styles.
However, I'm still getting the same error.
John Oxton wrote:

Hi Cameron,
You have this
.paymate {
   position: relative:
   top: 20px;
   right: 10px;
}
the position:relative needs a semi colon and you should be on your way
Regards,
John,
Cameron Muir wrote:

Hello,
I can't work out why this is producing an error. I'm sure there must
be a simple solution that I've missed.
body {
  font: small Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;
  color: #66;
}
The error:
URI : http://design.quagma.net/themes/quagma/style.css
  * Line: 0 Context : sans-serif
Parse Error - : Trebuchet MS
  * Line: 0 Context : sans-serif
Parse Error - sans-serif;
  * Line: 0 Context : sans-serif
Parse error - Unrecognized : { }
The site:
http://design.quagma.net
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Re: [WSG] FireFox - Built In CSS Error Handler?

2004-09-04 Thread Ryan Christie
Aww thanks.
I must not be using the DOM inspector properly since I have never seen 
any CSS or any CSS errors displayed inside there...
How do you view the CSS of an item?
Mine just shows the text and blinks a border around it etc...

The DOM inspector doesn't validate stuff. Not sure about how it will 
display CSS errors either. To see the stuff though..

When you click on something and the border blinks, you click on the icon 
next to where it says Object - DOM mode -- that will bring up a list 
of possible data displays. Play around with it.

Ryan Christie
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Re: [WSG] Sliding doors and Mac IE5.2

2004-08-29 Thread Ryan Christie
I'm not sure if this is on or off topic. If it's off topic my apologies.
I'm using the ALA tab menu (sliding doors) as my main nav. Now I've been 
told that it breaks in Mac/IE5 into something like this... left tab img 
- the link - right tab img. Is it possible to get it right in Mac/IE5.2?
Hey, I think your site looks great Kim :)
One thing though - the clickable/rollover area on your top tabs only 
occurs over the text, which feels a little weird. The side links are 
fine; the whole block is clickable. You should fix the top ones mate :)

(i think a {display:block; width:100%;} on the [a] tags there should do 
the trick.)

Ryan Christie
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Re: [WSG] Microsoft going to improve Internet Explorer?

2004-06-24 Thread Ryan Christie
Phillips, Wendy wrote:
http://blogs.msdn.com/dmassy/archive/2004/06/16/157263.aspx
 

SOSDD Wendy. This horse is already bloody, mutilated, and decomposing on 
the battlefield.

After the explosion on Channel9 forums, it irks me that Dave Massy and 
Tony Chor still gawk at the vague requests
when they have an ample amount of specifics from the community. Big 
improvement, probably not. At the rate the
IE team moves, we'll be lucky if they even get anything right with CSS 
in their Longhorn release.

Very disappointed in them.
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Re: [WSG] Interesting reading

2004-06-16 Thread Ryan Christie
Well, I'm with Mike Kear on this one one hundred percent...
 Agreeing on standards is like McDonald's and Burger King agreeing to 
have the same type of french fry recipe. Where is the secret sauce that 
makes you want to go their restaurant? And where is the reason why I 
should use one browser over another? If all browsers are going to be the 
same, why should anyone make or even support another browser in the 
first place?

No matter how you slice, fry, or bake a french fry, the thing is still a 
potato at it's most basic level. Flashiness is fine, as long as all 
browsers stem off the same, basic principals. Hello? Standards?

This is definitely a person whose words I wouldn't take into any real 
consideration now or in the future.

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Re: [WSG] Thanks for Div/Float Help

2004-06-09 Thread Ryan Christie
Rosie Norwood wrote:
Thank you to Michael and Andrew for your help on the float. Everything 
works beautifully now and I am sucking up the new knowledge.

Rosie Norwood
 

Please send thank-you emails offlist directly to the people you are 
thanking.

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Re: [WSG] Help with IE 6

2004-06-07 Thread Ryan Christie
Amit Karmakar wrote:
 
The site: http://www.maysvillerotary.org
CSS: http://www.maysvillerotary.org/assets/styles/maysvillerotary.css

It's pretty late over here, and I only brushed over the stuff but
#navcontainer
{
float: left;
width: 199px;
border-right: 1px solid #B4D3DC;
padding: 0 0 1em 0;
margin-bottom: 1em;
font-family: Verdana, Lucida, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
/*background-color: #99;*/
background: #C7E4E6;
color: #333;
}
I think your problem has a bit to do with the box model manhandling of IE6's engine. 
When you're using
specified witdths in your CSS, be careful about also specifying the padding -- it'll 
break lots of stuff
in IE. Can get around with Tantek's V-F hack 
(http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html) or
just avoid using width+padding in block elements.
under #navigation li a, I don't think you should need a width:100% .. li will fill up 
the space they reside
in horizontally unless limited by a max-width/width.
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[WSG] Unordered list problem on IE5.2Mac

2004-06-07 Thread Ryan Christie
Hi list :)
I've got every other quirk squashed except this unordered list one.
Is there a way to reposition the unordered list while keeping the square 
bullets where they're supposed to be, or will I have to fake this
with a background image? I've gotten the text to move where it's 
supposed to be, but the bullets don't seem to care.

The ul is inside a div, and the div is positioned. I thought maybe that 
would do the trick instead of repo the ul, but nope.

page: http://www.theward.net/jmuweb/retool/index.html
css: http://www.theward.net/jmuweb/retool/stylesheet.css
=/  optional  /==
Comments on the site welcome. I'm not the designer, I just chop up the 
Photoshop files and program it.

The other page the designer has given me is the 2nd level template ~
page: http://www.theward.net/jmuweb/level2/index.html
page: http://www.theward.net/jmuweb/level2/stylesheet.css
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Re: [WSG] CSS Disaster

2004-06-03 Thread Ryan Christie

Almost all of my visitors use IE, and I have less than two weeks to 
solve the problem.

CSS is an excellent car, but IE is a broken muddy pothole-filled road.
Anyone know any bugs that prevent IE from loading a stylesheet? 
You provided no URLs. Nada. Zilch. Nein.
Sorry, no can help.
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Re: [WSG] Correct way to swap style sheets based on Browser?

2004-05-30 Thread Ryan Christie

What I would like to do is, limit the browsers that see the fully styled
version of my site to the ones I know work correctly others will get the
un-styled version.
I am aware I can do this in JavaScript, is there a way to do so in CSS?
Logically I want to say:
If (ie4,5,5.5,6+, NN6, 7+ , Opera7+, Mozilla 0+ etc ){ use this style sheet
}
Elseif (NN4.7) {use this style sheet} 
Else { dont use style sheet}

 

It appears to me that you have pretty much every modern browser we deal 
with day-to-day in your allowance section there.
I wouldn't recommend the use of JavaScript for browser-sniffing. This is 
a practice best left back in the dark ages of web design with Netscrape 
and IE proprietry page methods.

Since in NN4 you will (presumably? yoiu didn't specify) be using the 
same HTML as you would for the others, you'll only want to feed NN4 what 
it can understand and hide the rest from it. There is a technique that 
works very well.

Make 2 stylesheets - name one basic, and name the other modern.
Style commands that NN4 can understand/handle without 
crashing/misbehaving go in the basic CSS file.
All other styles are placed into modern.

at the top of basic, import modern -- @import url(modern.css);
NN4 is unable to use the @import function, and so it will not see the 
style information you have placed into modern.
In your HTML heads, use link rel=stylesheet type=text/css 
media=screen href=basic.css /

There is not really an option to say Else, don't use the 
stylesheets... NN4 CSS support is extremely rudimentary. Generally, I 
wouldn't worry about dealing with any other browsers. However, I notice 
that you haven't included on your list IE5.2 Mac or Safari, etc. and 
that all those listed are on the Windows platform. If you are thinking 
of blocking out the styling of your pages on these other-platformed 
browsers, I would discourage it. You should be able to offer some level 
of styling to Mac as well as Linux with little trouble. Browsers on 
these platforms (minus IE5.x OS8/9/X) aren't too troublesome to cater to.

On a side note, another post up, developing in IE6 or FF
http://shadyland.theward.net/archives/2004/05/development_ie6_1.php
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Re: [WSG] An Objective Look at Table Based vs. CSS Based Design

2004-05-28 Thread Ryan Christie

I think it was Michelangelo (though it might have been daVinci) who 
said regarding sculpture, that the statue was already in the stone--he 
merely removed the excess.
I'm pretty sure it was Michaelangelo Mord.
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Re: [WSG] Help with positioning

2004-05-25 Thread Ryan Christie
Sean Sullivan-Daley wrote:
OK I guess I need to re-state my problem. I Have a fixed amount of space (55px) at the 
top of my page. I need to have my navigation anchored to the bottom of that 55px 
space. What I have is 2 divs nested in another div. The top div is for info on who is 
logged in the bottom div has another div(topnav) for navigation.
My problem is getting the navigation to be anchored to the bottom of its container. I 
can get it to work for one browser but not the other.
Any suggestions?
http://sean.ashtonweb.com/test/top.html
Thanks, 

-Sean
 

Not sure if this was what you were looking for, but here's my take on 
what you intended:

http://www.theward.net/test.html
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Re: [WSG] Styled not picked up by FF

2004-05-21 Thread Ryan Christie
Kim Kruse wrote:
Hi,
 
I've one small problem with this page http://www.pagemakers.dk/divtest/ 
 
Is the padding on the #content is not being picked up by FF... or is 
it something else preventing FF from moving the #content text down? 
The CSS is here  http://www.pagemakers.dk/divtest/mouseriders.css
 
Thank you
Kim
I think you have a typo in your CSS file --
.content overskrift {
should probably read
#content .overskrift {
As for what causing the top padding to not show up in Fox, I've not a clue =/
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Re: [WSG] Printing problem

2004-05-21 Thread Ryan Christie
Giles Clark wrote:
I'm having a problem with printing web pages which I have put together with
CSS. I have done this before and have never had a problem. The pages render
OK in IE but when you hit the print button IE closes and restarts.
For the life of me I can't spot the problem..I've even wrapped the style
sheet in an @media all{} tag. Anyone else come across this problem before or
have any suggestions?
the site is http://www.douglaspartnership.com
any thoughts much appreciated.
regards
Giles
 

Tried printing in IE6 Win, no problems here. Which version/platform of 
IE is crashing and restarting?

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[WSG] Using XHTML 1.1

2004-05-17 Thread Ryan Christie
Just wrote an article addressing XHTML 1.1 and wanted some feedbacks.
My site just changed URLs and direction, so my current readership is 
somewhere around zero. :)

Please just leave comments on-site. Don't want to clog the list with a 
self-promo.

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[WSG] JS Percentages?

2004-05-09 Thread Ryan Christie
I wouldn't trust JS as far as I could throw it (can you throw code?) ... 
but is there a statistic on how many users actually disable it in their 
browsers? Is it possible to sniff that out, and if so, how many users 
per group are we talking about?

-Ryan
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Re: [WSG] Forms, labels headers

2004-05-09 Thread Ryan Christie
I seriously just have to add, those toons are priceless :) excellent 
resource Manuel!

-Ryan

Manuel Gonz√°lez Noriega wrote:

El dom, 09-05-2004 a las 05:56, Bert Doorn escribió:

 

Really, what is the practical (as opposed to philosophical) difference
between the two methods? 
   

Hi Bert,

are you asking why using tables for layout is stupid? :-)

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

 

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Re: [WSG] JS Percentages?

2004-05-09 Thread Ryan Christie
YoYoEtc wrote:

And if some users do indeed disable it, what sort of code do you put 
it as an alternative to get the site to do what you want it to do?
Server-side languages such as PHP or ASP. JS is a client language 
because it's dependant on a user's browser to supply the processing 
power for whatever facet, most commonly the ability to process 
JavaScript or X/HTML. Some may not understand the nature of a 
server-side, so here is an explanation.

Say you want to output the result from a calculation. The calculation 
could be, for instance, adding two and two together.

If it is written in JavaScript, the page will be sent out containing the 
yet-to-be-run JavaScript code asking the user's browser to call up its 
JS powers, process the code, and display the answer 4.

If it is written in PHP, when the browser makes a call to the server to 
pick up a copy of your web page, the web server your files reside on 
will take the page and process it before sending out any data to the 
user's browser. After being computed, the page will be sent out to the 
user with the answer in place.

If you open up a page that has been processed using PHP or ASP, you will 
not see any indications that a script was previously running. You will 
simply see, for example, a paragrpah containing the number 4 below a 
previously unsolved equation.

Due to taking the processing responsibility off your user's browser and 
placing it on the server, universal computation is ensured since patrons 
are fed the end results in HTML.

PS thanks Mario for the statistics

-Ryan
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Re: [WSG] reply from ACA

2004-05-07 Thread Ryan Christie
Damn man... I haven't laughed so hard in quite awhile.
For christsake -- someone please get the Australian .gov's to validate 
proper.
There's an army of you guys over there. Makes me want to pack my bags 
and jet :)

(and, I loved this guy's grammar and spelling.)

-Ryan

Neerav wrote:

The following line from the ACA's source code explains most of the 
problem:
META content=Microsoft FrontPage 5.0 name=GENERATOR/HEAD

and the less said about their accessible sitemap at 
http://www.aca.gov.au/help/sitemap.htm (a mess of table cells and font 
tags) the better

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Re: [WSG] First Post - Help with Graphic on Home Page

2004-05-05 Thread Ryan Christie
I'm not clear to what your problem is from the email? You have 3 
graphics (at least the only three that are showing up in FFox + IE6). 
One is a solid purple column, one is a city and is horizontal, and the 
other is a purple to white blender for the city bottom edge.

In FFox and IE, your blender image does slide up against the vertical 
purple image.
In FFox and IE, there is no whitespace separating either the horizontal 
or verical cells from the edge of the browser window.

A shot of your site with the cells outlined from Firefox:
http://www.theward.net/screenshot.gif
I always design for an 800x600 resolution, which last I saw was the 
mid-line standard for the majority of users' screen resolutions, 
although I'd figure with technology advancing its probably a safe bet to 
design for 1024x768 as well. HTH.

Cheers
-Ryan
YoYoEtc wrote:
Hello Everyone:
This is my first post to this list and I do hope it is not off topic.
I am creating a web site and am working on the home page (fairly new 
web designer, too). Normally, I make the page small so it can be seen 
by older monitors but this time I wanted to see if I could have it 
fill the entire page, no matter which monitor it was being viewed on.

I am hitting two problems.
1 - I can't get the blended image at the bottom of the large 
horizontal graphic at the top to slide right over to jut up against 
the left column.

2 - Even though I have selected 100% for the size of the table, there 
is still white space above the horizontal graphic and to the left of 
the vertical graphic. My cell padding and spacing are already set to 
zero.

I put the page on another site of mine so you can see it - 
http://www.fourpawstrail.com/newsite/index.html

Can anyone help?
T
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Re: [WSG] Question on javascript

2004-05-05 Thread Ryan Christie
I never got into the idea of redirecting browsers to different pages 
using JS. Using standards to make web pages renders that practice 
obsolete for the most part since you get a one page serves all product 
in the end.

If I use JS on any pages it is usually to make remembrance cookies on a 
user's computer or to add some bling to already established content like 
random images, date counter, etc. I don't feel JS is a reliable 
technology to use for distributing crucial pieces content, only things 
that can be considered extra.

-Ryan
Jack Kennard wrote:
I notice there are a lot of sites in this group, that are using 
javascript.
Are they mostly for determining browsers and then redirecting,
or ?

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Re: [WSG] First Post - Help with Graphic on Home Page

2004-05-05 Thread Ryan Christie

Re designing for 800x 600 or 1024x768, I think I will do that.  From 
what I am reading, stretching the city horizontal graphic will degrade 
the quality and I can't take that risk
Yes, stretching out the image manually by forcing widthheight 
properties on the tag itself with distort and pixelize it. Never use 
false height and width values to shrink or expand an image. Use 
Photoshop, PaintShopPro, or [insert your favorite graphic editing 
software here] to alter the image's actual size.

Nothing screams amateur more than a 2.5MB JPEG whose actual dimensions 
are 1800x1600, with it set to display at 320x240 size. If the publisher 
actually took the time to shrink the image, it would look better and be 
vastly smaller. I don't have any spcific examples off the top of my 
head, but I'm sure everyone has run into this on more than one occasion 
and rolled their eyes into the back of their head.

When you design for, say, 800x600, do you have to put that in the body 
anywhere?
When I was using tables to lay stuff out, I always drew out the cells on 
a piece of paper and figured out the widths of each cell in pixel units, 
never exceeding 800px on the widths. I still do the same with CSS but 
use divs instead of cells.

Don't bother setting width to your table tag. Leave it blank. The table 
will expand to fit the cells placed inside of it. Take care with your 
table cells; simply limit yourself to 800px in added width (eg., an 
800px header cell, a 200px left cell, 600px right cell, 800px bottom 
footer space).

You won't have to declare the resolution you aim for like you would 
declare your DOCTYPE at the top of the page or the character set in the 
metas. The limitations apply to the rules you set for yourself. So if 
you go over 800 pixels in width, slap yourself around a few times and 
then come back and try again :)

If I made mistakes there, I apologize. I haven't used tables to lay out 
websites for ages now. I find tabular data tables look just fine sizing 
themselves with a couple pointers in text alignment and some minor styling.

-Ryan
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[WSG] WAI3 in a strict DOCTYPE

2004-04-07 Thread Ryan Christie
I've run into a wall. I wasn't trying for WAI Level 3, but I've usually 
been pretty close to achieving it. Bobby always yells at me to specify 
the language of the document using the attribute lang=en in the HTML 
header. W3C tells me though that lang=en isn't a valid attribute. Do 
you have to pick between using transitional and getting WAI3 and using 
strict and at best getting WAI2, or is there a solution for this problem?

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Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer

2004-04-01 Thread Ryan Christie
I'm the guilty party Leo. Well it was 2am and I guess that came out 
convoluted.

I meant to say it would be easier to learn coding than to learn good art.
Both are talents in their own realms, but if you are forced to 
transition from one into another, I'm sure Design into HTML would be 
easier on the person.

Please don't kill me. :)

PS. -- I'm a coder. `Nuff said.

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Leo J. O'Campo wrote:

My reply didn't show the full quote... so here it is for those who 
will accuse me of taking it out of context.

Art is best left
to people that have a knack for it. But again, anyone can learn to
program.

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[WSG] This is picky, pardon the anal-ness

2004-03-31 Thread Ryan Christie
I've noticed in the past a few times, but now more frequently, that 
people are replying to one thread but using that thread's same header to 
reply to other messages. I'm sure that the ones doing this aren't using 
thread mode in their email clients, but it does affect some of us. I 
don't want to read about CSS Columns in X site when I'm reading and 
thinking about accessibility issues in Y site.

Please, when you reply to a message, highlight the message you are 
responding to, click Reply in your client, and only use the resulting 
window to generate a response to that one message. If you click reply on 
a random message, wipe out the contents and reply to another's email 
*even if you change the message's subject line* it will still associate 
itself with another thread of discussion.

Sorry, had to get that out in the open :)

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Re: [WSG] *sigh* drop-downs

2004-03-31 Thread Ryan Christie
Well, at least your client wants tiered drop-down menus.

My most recent client wanted, basically, a sitemap on the left side of 
every page in the site *AND* he wanted a horizontal top navigational bar 
in addition to it. My boss does wonders in dealing with fussy clients, 
and she convinced him that such a system actually makes navigation 
harder than easier for the typical user. After 2 (or may have been 
three) revisions, he was happy with what he was seeing. The convincing 
of the confusion of his navigational system didn't come from us, per 
say, (you know, the people that deal with this stuff on a daily basis) 
but by a few test drive users who raised concerns. While some people 
won't care what you say because they know best, they'll take their 
advice from a person who knows little if nothing of accessibility. Go 
figure.

Suckerfish is decent if she absolutely needs the drop-downs feel. With 3 
or 4 levels of navi, not only are tiers 3 and 4 going to reduce their 
hit count and/or annoy users for the simple fact that web users are lazy 
and want ease in navigation generally and not completeness, but the 
dropdowns won't come up at all for users without JS enabled. Without a 
second form of navigation, they'll be high and dry (if your client is 
using this as a sole means of navigation).

I'm basing off speculation, but I'd also assume that 3 or 4 levels of 
navigation will not appear semantically correct to CSS-disabled browsers 
either. This will cause problems to the 4.0 crowd, though I care less 
and less about them daily :).

I don't know what you mean by solid sources, since concern over this 
type of stuff comes from the very people who are members on this list, 
but if you look into Zeldman's archives and a couple of the other 
brand-namer's archives, like mezzoblue, maninblue, meyerweb, etc -- 
chances are they'll have at least mentioned something of this issue.

As for my professional advice, I try my hardest to stay away from JS 
in general, but *especially* in a navigational sense. I believe all 
users should at least be able to navigate a website, even if they aren't 
capable of relishing its bells and whistles. Using JS for navigation 
will screw some people (a very small number, but some nonetheless) out 
of a positive experience of finding information. Sure, allow the page to 
render crappily and still be readable, but don't by any stretch *deny* a 
user his/er navigational abilities.

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Ryan Christie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Justin French wrote:

Hi all,

I'm quoting for a client at the moment who seems to have her heart set 
on dropdown menus for the sites navigation.  I've implemented such 
menus before, and am currently using a version of the Suckerfish menus 
[1], which is fine for a one-deep hierarchy, but it looks like she 
wants 3-4 levels of depth in the menus, which is going to:

- significantly increase development time and testing time
- decrease browser compatibility  accessibility
I would also speculate that menus with such deep hierarchy would 
confuse and distract users.

But we all know how difficult it is to convince a client that they're 
wrong, especially when they see huge hierarchical menus on other 
corporate sites.  So instead, I'd like to read up (and point her to) 
any studies conducted in terms of their usability in context of 
website navigation, perhaps even compared to other forms of navigation.

I have no doubt that such menus ARE usable (we use them every day in 
Windows, Mac OS, etc), but as pointed out recently on this list (or 
another?), the menus in our OS are not *navigational* -- they're 
*functional*.

I'm confident I can provide simple, smart navigation without them, but 
first I need to find some solid proof that they're a bad idea :)

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer

2004-03-31 Thread Ryan Christie
Amen to that brother.

I agree with Christine and most of the others. Even if I take a billion 
art classes and devote the rest of my life to honing art skills, I will 
still be horrible compared to a slew of others whose design is 
immaculate but whose technical side is lacking. You can teach people 
HTML or CSS. It may take a while, but they'll catch on eventually. 
Teaching people art however is much harder. You're either good at design 
or you aren't. A person with combined skills is nice to have, but in 
most cases unless your studio is comprised of yourself and one other 
person who sleeps during their work shift, mostly not needed.

Hire artists for artistic talent, not for tech. When you need a 
developer vice-versa that and follow again. Dual-talent is great for a 
one-man team.

You'll accomplish more stylish pages by working to each other's 
weaknesses. I relate this to hiring a video game programmer and then 
telling that person on top of all their languages, they have to 
conceptualize and flesh out their own game characters. Art is best left 
to people that have a knack for it. But again, anyone can learn to program.

--

Ryan Christie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Universal Head wrote:

Warning: rant.

The very fact that this is even in question with any designer is an 
indication of how degraded the title has become since computers hit 
the industry. Design was and has always been about communication and 
functionality - my degree in 84-88 was 'Visual Communications', not 
'web design' or 'making things look cool'.

Another reason - excuse the plug - why the tagline of my company is 
'Design That Works'.

It annoys and frustrates me that the reputation and integrity of the 
design industry has been so ruined in the eyes of clients by the media 
(endless images of frustrated business people trying to contact their 
designers who are out skateboarding), software developers (buy this 
app and you'll instantly become a designer! No need to pay design 
agencies ever again!), the greed of the dot-com boom (I've been 
renovating bathrooms for ten years but I think I'll be a designer 
cause they make lots of money and you can work from home), 
fly-by-night colleges (Complete our two-week course and you'll be a 
web designer!) and the whole image of design being a cool and easy 
thing to do.

End of rant!

Peter

On 01/04/2004, at 9:36 AM, Mark Stanton wrote:

To the key character of a good web designer (apart from
artistic talent) is that they respect their medium and their
audience. If a
designer shows any sign of getting upset about having their artist
whims
challenged by browser limitations or accessibility - don't hire
them.
*Universal Head* 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T (+612) 9517 1466
F (+612) 9565 4747
E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W www.universalhead.com
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Re: [WSG] IE and CSS Rendering

2004-03-16 Thread Ryan Christie
Don't believe so. Unstyled content doesn't flash -- in fact nothing 
flashes. Just a blank screen.

Paul Brouwers wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I appreciate the comments I've recieved on design issues and 
accessibility, as
those will always be continually improved. But, the real issue was 
the lagtime
in initial page load in Internet Explorer and how to fix it if 
possible...


I don't suppose you're experiencing the 'Flash of Unstyled Content'?

http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp for more details.

Paul

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[WSG] Load problem in IE

2004-03-15 Thread Ryan Christie
There's been a problem with a bit of load lag in IE from my latest 
project. In FF08, Safari, and NN7 it comes up without the lag. Is there 
something that IE doesn't like about my page, or is it just coughing 
over the CSS used? I've done many CSS sites in the past, but haven't run 
into this lag problem.

This is also a new site, and I would appreciate any issues or comments 
about the accessibility or layout, etc. All pages are validated XHTML 
Trans and the CSS checks too :) The names of the sections/links may 
sound quite odd, but the client has requested those specific names (aka, 
can't change them).

site: http://www.theward.net/psyc
css: http://www.theward.net/psyc/css/general.css
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Re: [WSG] Cool No-delay image rollover technique

2004-02-16 Thread Ryan Christie





You'd still get the same effect Michael, but with CSS positioning of a
solid image, your code is smaller, more users can see the rollovers,
and it just works faster. There's nothing wrong with old-fashioned
(keyword) JS rollovers, CSS is just more economical.

Michael Kear wrote:

  Wouldn't you get the same effect with old-fashioned _javascript_ rollovers if
you have caching turned off?  

I remember the first attempt I made at doing rollovers using the dreamweaver
behaviour, I couldn't figure out how come it worked beautifully on my local
machine but not on the web.  Till I realised I had caching turned off and
the images were loading every time.


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com


-Original Message-
From: Ben Bishop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Monday, 16 February 2004 10:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Cool No-delay image rollover technique


I experience the same issue as Peter in Firefox with caching turned off.
(although I don't see a delay, I know it's loading a fresh copy of the 
image when the firewall winks at me every time I roll over tabs on the 
Fast Company web site.)

Here's a real purdy looking tutorial from Dan Cedarholm, note the 
comments bring up this very issue.
http://www.simplebits.com/archives/2003/09/30/accessible_imagetab_rollovers.
html

I agree with Peter, it's a clean way to handle roll-overs. And the 
majority of users might have caching turned on. Otherwise if you follow 
the link at the bottom of the Pixy tutorial, there's a simple band-aid.

Regards,
Ben

Peter Firminger wrote:

  
  
I know I have my browser (IE 6 WinXP Pro) set to not cache anything, 
but this method doesn't work for me. Over a second delay on rollover 
and roll off with a blank space in the meantime. It makes no 
difference to a _javascript_ preload at all. Much better code though so 
I'm not canning it.

*From:* Michael Kear
**

Using this technique you can get all the graphical/ 3d advantages
of _javascript_ rollovers, but instead of _javascript_ it uses CSS to
move an image around giving the rollover effect.

The article's at
http://www.pixy.cz/blogg/clanky/cssnopreloadrollovers/


  
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Re: [WSG] Dodging CSS Hacks Tutorial

2004-02-12 Thread Ryan Christie
Box A's background becomes the border when you make a 5px margin on Box 
B ... I believe I used the word appear... It's sort of faking a 
border, if you will.

When built you'll see what I mean (and why it can only be solid)

Robert Moser wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] blurted out:

Thank you for the feedbacks, keep them coming :)


In your Method 1 CSS sample, the explanation mentions a 5px red 
border, but there is no border attribute anywhere in the sample.  
Perhaps the margin: 5px; in the #box_b selector was supposed to be border?


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Re: [WSG] CSS/XHTML NavBar and IE6

2004-02-12 Thread Ryan Christie
Hi Paul.

The gaps you speak of are part of the CSS parsing bug by IE.
In any CSS declaration where width is in use with padding or borders or 
both, you must use the CSS hack to feed IE a false value and Safari, 
etc.. the right value.
Or, you can use a method to get around using the hack.

See http://web.theward.net/dodgingcsshacks.html for more information.

As for the rollover delays, you could try specifying a preload for the 
alternate images. A List Apart also has an excellent article on 
no-preload rollovers using CSS and positioning which can be found at

http://www.pixy.cz/blogg/clanky/cssnopreloadrollovers/

good luck.

And right Robert Moser, I do have black there instead of red. Will fix 
that typo shortly -- thanks!

Paul Ross wrote:

Hello folks,

(First post to this excellent list - thanks Russ/Peter for setting me up).

I am trying to ditch the HTML tables addiction and keeping to standards-based
designs from now on. The annoying thing is I can do this in 30 seconds using the
'old' methods but I'm having problems. I need some guidance on the image navbar
where I have used a Eric Meyer CSS-only method for the rollovers (instead of
JavaScript code soup). Here's my test page...
http://www.skyrocket.com.au/Concepts/Books24x7/index.html

Works fine in Mozilla 1.5, Safari 1.0 but using IE6 on a PC there's a gap at the
top and bottom of the navbar of maybe 5px. Any ideas why? Also, there is a
significant delay on mouseover depending on the browser used. The rollover state
doesn't seem to load until a user rolls over the button hot spot. Can this be
sped up somehow? Any help appreciated.
Regards
PAUL ROSS
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au
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Re: Opening pages in new windows... was Re: [WSG] XHTML (OT??)

2004-02-08 Thread Ryan Christie
Why not just use Firebird instead of a hacked up IE6 add-in? Will 
probably have a better browsing experience with the real thing instead 
of all that imitation stuff.

The only times I ever open IE are when I'm forced to because of 
propriety Javascript applications that will only run themselves in IE 
(.class files.. curse them)

Chris Stratford wrote:

Ok since I started this topic, I probably should write back...

Personally - I use crazybrowser, its just IE6 with a tabbed interface
(very similar to FireBird).
I always open links in new windows so I can go back, only forums do I
keep in the one tab...
I like a visual history written in tabs along my screen, so instead of
the back button - I press F2 to go back a tab...
But not all users do the same as i...

So I make all my external links (CSS  XHTML Validator) link to a new
window...
That's about it, only external links, or links on my website which are
OT...
Like a subdomain or whatnot...
I HATE website where every page is a new window...
It shits me to tears really... it gets under my skin...
That's what lead me to crazybrowser (btw - www.crazybrowser.com)
It's the IE Version of Firebirds interface (middle click open new tabs 
closes tabs etc...)
Anyway!
that's my reasoning!
 

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Re: Opening pages in new windows... was Re: [WSG] XHTML (OT??)

2004-02-08 Thread Ryan Christie
True, Firebird can tend to load pages slower. It is because Firebird 
loads one image at a time whereas IE will load 4 or 5 at once. There is 
a way around this

See Speed up page rendering and Pipelining -- if you implement those 
into your Firebird installation, it should narrow that load lag by a few 
seconds.
http://www.texturizer.net/firebird/tips.html#oth_rendering

Also, nobody's mentioned it yet, so I guess I'll go ahead and beat Mr. 
Russ to a link for this week: http://www.texturizer.net/firebird
Firebird 0.8 is due out for release this Monday

Chris Stratford wrote:

I do use them both...
I have both open now, and always.
Just that CrazyBrowser seems a lot faster loading etc... and its got a
nice small interface, where Firebirds tabs are huge which reduce screen
size...
I am only running this at 1400x1050 resolution, so height is important,
and firebird has a huge menu and a lot of crap... then the task bar -
about 1/7th the screen is gone, where as in CB its only about 1/10th is
taken up...
Maybe someone here feels the same way about firebird? (on both I have
the address bar and Links bar visible (they have all my links I need in
them)
-
Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.neester.com
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Re: [WSG] Going Mad with pleasing the browsers

2004-02-03 Thread Ryan Christie




That's the thing though - you'll have to use hacks. Now, hacks are
commonplace in order to maintain browser compatibility in CSS. We can
all entend a big poop-covered handshake over to our Microsoft boys for
placing us in this position. Understand that it is the fault of the
browsers and not of the language itself that CSS hacks are completely
necessary if you are going tableless and have either padding or border
properties in your CSS file. Margins don't cause problems.

If you are unfamiliar with the box model, here's a short rundown (aka
why you need to use CSS hacks) ... and also, your little "be nice to
netscape" rule there is technically a hack as well. cough ;) we'll let
that one slide heh heh.

Say you have a div, in your case controlled by #contentwrapper

#contentcontainer {
position: relative;
width: 747px;
background-image: url(../../images/global/backgrounds/contents_tiler.gif);
background-color: #365878;
background-repeat: repeat-y;
background-position: left top;
}
#contentwrapper {
font-size: 1em;
text-align: justify;
line-height: 1.8em;
background-image: url(../../images/global/backgrounds/border.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
background-position: right top;
padding-bottom: 1px; /*Fix NS 7 bug where it breaks footer from the
contents container */
padding-top: 30px;
padding-left: 20px;
padding-right: 35px;
}

Let's cut out all the other garbage for length's sake and deal with
hack-worthy material.
#contentcontainer {
width: 747px;
}

#contentwrapper {
padding-bottom: 1px; /*Fix NS 7 bug where it breaks footer from the
contents container */
padding-top: 30px;
padding-left: 20px;
padding-right: 35px;
}

You've chosen a most interesting way to get around not using a hack by
placing the box within a box, and then not specifying a width in the
inner container. I would opt for a hack here and save some filesize. In
addition to hacks for IE, it's common to see them for Opera as well.
Opera users though are much more keen to actually updating their
software when a new version comes out. Why some people are still using
IE5.0 at home is beyond me. Maybe they didn't get the memo.

In other areas, there are some possible problems.

#mainnav ul li #services{
	background-image: url(../../images/global/mainnav/services.gif);
	background-repeat: no-repeat;
	height: 113px;
	width: 82px;
	background-position: left top;
	display: block;
	padding-right: 10px;
}

Your width will not be 82px there, it will be 92px in IE. (82 + 10). If
you had

border: 1px solid #000;

in there as well, it would be 1 + 82 + 10 + 1 or 94 pixels. That's what
the screwed up box model handling of IE does, adds width plus border
size, plus padding to determine the size of the overall box. You're
bound to run into a wall somewhere along the line if you're doing
tablefree layouts hackless. I always use the voice-family flavour to
spoof the retarded browsers, but there are other methods that work
equally as well. I don't particularly like using hacks either, and I
see the basis behind this recent tableless layout deal as well - tables
are for tabular data, not for web layouts. When the table property was
created, layouts were not in the minds of those making it. It's all
about meaning. That's why there was the definition wars in here awhile
back. What constitutes their correct usage? Text definitions or a
broader spectrum? I say broader spectrum within reasonable boundaries.

I wish I could say there will come a day when hacks are but a laughable
history. Hopefully I'll live to see it, because after all the malice I
have for IE and users with grossly outdated browsers - it'll be nice to
laugh it off instead of take an uzi and round up the Microsoft IE
development team for payback. There will be more hacks to be learned
and used in the future probably, and just like right now, those hacks
will be for the 2 percent of the population who don't know what the
word upgrade means. How will we get to hackless web bliss?

One Browser to rule them all, One Browser to find them,
One Browser to bring them all and in the Standards bind them.

Just like keeping a secret is easier if you're the only one who knows
it, keeping code standard requires one browser with no quirks and
perfect handling that everyone uses on their machines. Being as IE is
the least compliant and most popular browser, it's damn near impossible
to hope for anything close to that right now.

And even with the One Browser, there will still be One Browser 1.0, One
Browser 2.0, One Browser 3.0... etc. Do you see the circle we're
running around? :)

--Ryan
http://www.theward.net

JW wrote:

  
  
  

  

I'm trying to avoid using hacks if possible. 

Now what I need to find out is what are the causes of the
problems. Feeling so dazed by all these.


Best Wishes
Jaime

  
  
  

  





Re: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity

2004-02-02 Thread Ryan Christie
This really has nothing to do with your email, but I'd recommend staying 
away from image maps :) i always peek under the hood at the sites that 
get sent out on the list. As it's not released yet, you'd still have 
time to change your deployment method. If you don't agree, that's cool. 
I'm just biased against them :)

--Ryan
http://www.theward.net
Veine K Vikberg wrote:

Hello;

Well, thanks to the Dane on this list (Anders Ebdrup) one of my major 
problems are fixed, now I have a smaller one (I think).

On this page:

http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign

I have some problems, it looks wonderful in Moz/NN6+/IE with WinXP/98 
Home on PC, which by the looks of the server logs are around 92% of 
the population visiting this site, but in Netscape 7 / XP Pro there is 
some things that are breaking apart (I can only say what the client 
told me, as I don't have XP Pro to test out on) The middle rollover 
has a white line under it, and the bottom right graphic (US News 
image) has a black line under it, and the around the search box there 
are some strange 2-3 pixel wide blue before the input box.

Anyone having any clue to why this happen, and even better how to deal 
with it?

On Mac (OS8.5/IE5.1) looks good, except for around the search box, 
where there is some weird things going on.

If anyone has any help/advice/links to help I would greatly appreciate 
them, especially the first problem as the client will look on his page 
through NS 7.1/XP Pro

   TIA  Regards
~Veine
Veine K Vikberg
http://www.vikberg.net
Professional Web Guru


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Re: [WSG] Browser / OS combo irregularity

2004-02-02 Thread Ryan Christie
Where to begin...

I was going to quote Zeldman's orange book, being the little Zeldmanite 
I am, but I'll go freestyle in the hopes that I get his concepts well 
enough by this point in time!

Image maps have (for the most part) fallen out of grace. I used to use 
them at one time (actually, right up until I cracked my ass down on all 
this standards hoopla and learned more techniques), but have since 
deviated away from tables all together for the most part and use div 
layouts. Anyhows, back in my table days I got pretty good with chopping 
them up just right and piecing them back together again. To make a short 
story shorter, I found that dicing up the image map into separate chunks 
using GIF compression made for a quicker load time than using one solid 
bar. It also carried the benefit of not having to rework an entire site 
when I wanted to add one new link to a feature on the navigational area.

If you're talking HTML filesize, going to chunked linked images will 
usually save a few bytes as well.

It's also a pain to generate new coordinates each time you need to 
change the map areas.

If you're a sucker for accessibility (like I am) image maps also do not 
permit navigation to screen readers.

The more I design, the more I see a different way of doing things - 
using text where images used to be, using CSS for this instead of 
Javascript, etc... I also see where image maps can bog down a developer 
in terms of redesign and adding new features.

I work for a .edu site as well. http://www.jmu.edu, or more 
specifically, http://medialab.jmu.edu is my department. In the past year 
and a half I've been working there, I've done work to quite a few 
different sites altering them to be more updateable in nature, and am 
currently doing a site from the ground up in XHTML1.0 + CSS, in a 
tableless layout environment. The graphics for the layout are 8-bit PNG 
with a JPG graphical header and total about 12kb in size. The HTML 
markup without content is roughly 4kb in size. Had I used tables, that 
would probably easily be around 8 or 9. The CSS file is a one-time 
download of 9kb, and it runs site-wide. A typical page with content 
typically loads in around 2.5-3 seconds on 56k modems.

So, personally, I think that realm is where everyone should want to 
eventually wind up at some point in their work. I've gone bit by bit 
towards a minimalist CSS-driven style of designing web sites, and I'm 
sort of happy that I wound up there. In the future, redesigning for a 
fresh look will take about 2 hours, and there's ample room to continue 
adding content and links in the meantime without a redesign.

I'm actually redesigning a site that uses a huge image map tomorrow 
(http://orgs.jmu.edu/signlanguageclub) and bringing it to valid code and 
no tables.
It's a pretty basic site, so expect some results tomorrow. I'll have 
both versions posted in their entirety + source around 10pm eastern 
standard time.

I can talk the talk. Tomorrow I walk the walk. ;)

Summary: nixing image maps will save you trouble, time, and redesign 
strife somewhere along the road, ane probably lead to smaller load times 
as well.

--Ryan
http://www.theward.net
PS - things to keep in mind: I code by hand, despise complex table 
layouts, and live life and web design by the Keep It Simple Stupid motto.

Veine K Vikberg wrote:

Ryan;

Lets hear your reasoning for not using them, and I am willing to 
change if your reasoning is good enough ;o)
However, this client is these days *very* concerned with download 
time, and as it stands the page is downloading at approximately 8 
seconds on a 56K modem under perfect conditions (not that it ever is 
but...) and that is what he wanted +2 seconds (he said under 10) with 
the graphics broken up,  I am close to that ten second mark, but if 
there is something I do not know about image maps, please enlighten 
me. (I did the one located at http://www.mainemaritime.edu 3 years ago 
when wait was the norm so it was no concern)

  Regards
  ~Veine
At 07:25 PM 2/2/2004 -0500, you wrote:


This really has nothing to do with your email, but I'd recommend 
staying away from image maps :) i always peek under the hood at the 
sites that get sent out on the list. As it's not released yet, you'd 
still have time to change your deployment method. If you don't agree, 
that's cool. I'm just biased against them :)

--Ryan
http://www.theward.net
Veine K Vikberg wrote:

Hello;

http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign

On Mac (OS8.5/IE5.1) looks good, except for around the search box, 
where there is some weird things going on.

If anyone has any help/advice/links to help I would greatly 
appreciate them, especially the first problem as the client will 
look on his page through NS 7.1/XP Pro

   TIA  Regards
~Veine


Veine K Vikberg
http://www.vikberg.net
Professional Web Guru

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Re: [WSG] Going Mad with pleasing the browsers

2004-02-02 Thread Ryan Christie




It took me a week's worth of work before I actually smoothed out my CSS
enough to the point where it tested correctly in all browsers that are
CSS-layout capable. The rest just get fed the barebones HTML with
sparse images, and a short  sweet notice about upgrading their
browser with download links :)

In your case, look up how to implement the Opera-friendly and
IE-friendly CSS hacks into your CSS file. It will most likely fix at
least one of the problems below, in addition to other problems that are
likely yet unforseen :) After you get in the habit of div/CSS layouts,
it'll go much quicker. Probably back down to a day at most. I'm sure
the first time we all dealt with table layouts it was tricky at first
as well.

--Ryan
http://www.theward.net

JW wrote:

  
  

  

  

Hello everyone

I am new to the list andenjoyed reading the woesand
sorrows. J/K :)

I am fairly new to building a siteusing pure CSS.After
reading so much about CSS and that it seemsthat the trend is shifting
to no tables, I finally gave in to tryingto start on my current
project with using CSS.Using tables, I would have
completedimplementing the site in a day. But with CSS, I took 3 days!
Most of the time, trying to find outwhyMozilla, Netscape, IE, Opera
are trying to drive me to the grave by rendering different
results...

But despite all these, I can'tdeny the fact that I
somehow enjoy thetorture. CSS is rather fun once you immerse yourself
into it especially when you are not an expert in it. Have been visiting
Max Designs for guidance. I see his website more than my TV 
dressing table these few days. 


These 2 are the test pages: -

Long Page: http://designs.sodesires.com/maxprime/index.html
Short Page: http://designs.sodesires.com/maxprime/index_short.html

The browsers I used to test : IE 6, NS 7, Mozilla 0.7,
Opera 7.02


Problems I can't solve: -

1) Opera only: The hover at the main navigation on the top
of the page is not working.

2) Netscape only: For short page - Netscape refuses to
show the background because the sidebar (column 2) is floated to the
right and it is longer than the 1st column. It will show the background
if the 1st column is longer but that is not what I want. I do not want
to be restricted. I want flexibility of text length in either columns.

3) Netscape only: As the footer has top padding in order
to position the contents in it, Netscape shows a white area above the
footer. In order to fix it, I have to put a bottom padding for my
content wrapper. It doesn't matter if it is 1px or 10px etc. As long as
I put a bottom padding, Netscape is happy. Anyone knows why?


Below isthe layout of the div I have for the contents
section and the CSS for it: -

div id="contentcontainer"
div id="contentwrapper"
div id="sidebar"/div
div id="contents"/div
/div/div

#contentcontainer {
position: relative;
width: 747px;
background-image:
url(../../images/global/backgrounds/contents_tiler.gif);
background-color: #365878;
background-repeat: repeat-y;
background-position: left top;
}

#contentwrapper {
font-size: 1em;
text-align: justify;
line-height: 1.8em;
background-image: url(../../images/global/backgrounds/border.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
background-position: right top;
padding-bottom: 1px; /*Fix NS 7 bug where it breaks footer from the
contents container */
padding-top: 30px;
padding-left: 20px;
padding-right: 35px;
}

#sidebar {
margin-top: 30px;
float: right;
width: 25%;
}

#contents{
width: 70%;
background-position: right top;
padding-right: 3%;
}


Being my very 1st attempt using CSS and no tables to build
a site, please do let me know if I did something wrong. I have no idea
how safe it is to present this to the customer. Almost feel like
presenting the table layout instead because I will know that nothing
will go wrong with the layout. Thank you!

Best Wishes
Jaime

  
  


  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  


  

  
  
   IncrediMail - Email has
finally evolved - Click Here



image/gif

Re: [WSG] entities

2004-01-11 Thread Ryan Christie
rsquo; is an alternate (easier to remember) code than the official 
unicode definition of #8217. All possible characters have a specific 
number assigned to them in Unicode. The lettered helpers came out after 
unicode was out to ease the pain of having to remember a set of digits 
that had nothing to do with the character being assigned. As such, 
browser support for the lettered versions can faulter. The numbered 
version is official Unicode, and should be recognized just about anywhere.

--Ryan
http://www.theward.net
Universal Head wrote:

A quick HTML Entities question. For a closed single quote, for 
example, is it better to use

rsquo;

or

#8217;

- and what is the distinction?
Peter
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Re: [WSG] Web Editor?

2004-01-11 Thread Ryan Christie





Dreamweaver currently produces the cleanest and most valid code, and is
one of the most polished WYSIWYG editors out there. Zeld's cronies
worked with Macromedia to bring the program up to date with handling
standards. It does the job pretty well. I don't use the visual design
view all too often when using the program because writing my own code
out by hand is easier. Dreamweaver color codes basically everything you
enter, and in the newest MX2004 version, is also able to be set to
catch code that will not be compatible with specified browsers. So, if
you're designing for MS IE 4.0 clients, Dreamweaver will underline code
not recognized by that browser in red squiggly like MS Word would do
with bad spelling. All in all, an excellent tool, even for those who
aren't going to use DW for its WYSIWYG qualities. The program also
accepts expansion plugins as do all Macromedia dev programs that will
add new features or update currently existing features.

The only downside is the pricetag. Like was mentioned earlier though,
you get what you pay for.

Adobe's latest version of Pagemill is supposed to be decent as well,
but after working with it in the past I gave it up for Windows
Notepad.Pagemill is expensive and really not worth it in my opinion.
When I'm on a mac, I use BBEdit unless it has DW installed :)

I use KDE's Bluefish editor when I'm on Linux.

--Ryan
http://www.theward.net

Taco Fleur wrote:

  
  
  Web Editor?

  What Web Editor out there produces the
cleanest and most valid code?
  
  - Editor that is embedded in IE (seen
it, produces really nasty markup)
  
  - Editor that is embedded in Netscape (no
exprience)
  
  - Ektron (used it many years ago, was
pretty happy with it)
  
  - .
  
  - Etc.
  
  And which one works in most of the
browsers?
  
  Taco Fleur
07 3535 5072
  
  http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/
  
  Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn
  




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Re: [WSG] A few links...

2004-01-07 Thread Ryan Christie
All list emails are accessible in the archives on the WSG website if you 
login. The archives can be found on the right side in the navigation. 
That's why you're not supposed to send out superfluous emails. Like this 
one.. ...   ... .. doh. Sorry Russ ;)

--Ryan
http://www.theward.net
Denis Boudreau [ CYBERcodeur ] wrote:

Vaska.WSG wrote:

russ, i just wanted to mention that these links you provide 
perdiodically have really been helping me get up to speed with css - 
thank you very much!  if you're ever in brussels, i'll gladly buy you 
a beer...


A silent but nonetheless very interested follower of this list, I've 
been meaning to ask this for a while now... are these links compiled 
somewhere on a web page or archive ? It would be great to be able to 
consult this ever-growing resource every now and then, like it's now 
possible with the CSS-Vault web site, not just by selecting every one 
of Russ' messages that contain few links in the title. ;)

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Re: [WSG] What have I missed here?

2003-12-21 Thread Ryan Christie
I'm taking a glance at your page errors and will give you a few points 
to help you get stuff sorted out./

Line 48 
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm#line-48, 
column 112/: there is no attribute height (explain... 
http://validator.w3.org/docs/errors.html#attr-undef)
|...llspacing=0 cellpadding=0 height=18|

table's height are defined by the total height of it's columns. columns 
have a height property, tables do not.

/Line 92 
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm#line-92, 
column 154/: character  is the first character of a delimiter but 
occurred as data ...=MCTimber / Metal Combination Legs  Metal 
Legs/a/li

|
Anywhere you want an ampersand to display on a page, it has to be entered using its
unicode encoding which is amp;
|/Line 150 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm#line-150, column 
82/:  required attribute alt not specified (explain... 
http://validator.w3.org/docs/errors.html#attr-missing).
 |com.au/images/SmallFooterSymbol.jpg/p|
All images have to have an alt attribute in xhtml. It's pretty easy to forget to 
include
alt's if you're not always thinking about it. i do it all the time :)
/Line 150 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm#line-150, 
column 86/:  end tag for img omitted, but OMITTAG NO was specified
 |au/images/SmallFooterSymbol.jpg/p
you didn't close the img tag properly. In XHTML, img tags have to be written up as
img src=url alt=alt text / .. if you add a space and slash to the end of your
img tags, these errors will go away. same goes for the hr tag you used; needs to be hr 
/
|/Line 152 
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm#line-152, 
column 26/:  reference not terminated by REFC delimiter
|p align=centercopy 2003 Auslegs, Pitt Town, NSW, Australia/p
that's just a run-on mumbo jumbo for you forgot to put a semicolon after the copy
|//||
HTH bud
-Ryan
http://www.theward.net
Michael Kear wrote:

A are you saying just cos there's 56 teensy weensy little errors that
makes a difference
Gulp!   Yeah. Well by the time I've fixed all those I might just have fixed
whatever the problem is. 

Thanks Peter.

Cheers
Mike Kear
-Original Message-
From: Peter Firminger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, 21 December 2003 1:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] What have I missed here?

Hi Michael,

First problem is that the page isn't valid.

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm

Second, the CSS isn't valid.

http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/style
s/auslegs.csswarning=1profile=css2usermedium=all
I suggest sorting those issues out first as this will eliminate some of the
problems and make troubleshooting easier for others. A doctype is very
important as it affects how browsers render the page.
Regards,

Peter

 

-Original Message-
From: Michael Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 4:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] What have I missed here?
I tried using the classic CSS menu from the Uberlink CSS
Rollovers: Overview
article I picked up on this list.  I managed to copy the code
and style
sheet from that tutorial, and now I want to see how it will
work on a site
I'm working on.  It's a two-level menu setup though, so I
want to have the
minor level have different style.
I've managed to get two levels in the menu ok, but for some
reason the first
item in the sub-level has all the characteristics of the top
level.   Can
anyone see what I've got wrong in the code?
The page is at http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm

And the style sheet concerned is at
http://auslegs.com.au/styles/auslegs.css
The first sub-menu item should be classic turned timber
lounge legs - the
first item under the Products category.
The structure of the menu on the page is:

ul
 liTop level item/li
 liTop level item/li
 liTop level item
   ul
  liSecond level item/li
  liSecond level item/li
  liSecond level item/li
   /ul
/li
liTop level item/li
ul
Is anything wrong with this structure?  It works fine on
another site I
have.
Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
p.s. I know it looks horrible right now. I want to get this
to work then
I'll do some pretty graphics for the menus to suit the site.
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Re: [WSG] Browser Engine Standard???

2003-12-10 Thread Ryan Christie
Taco-

I think it's more of a complex situation than that. I'm sort of sick of 
all the browser hoopla as well, and I've only been into designing for 5 
years. Back when I was a consumer in the browser wars, that was a good 
time as well - fun to kick back and watch the dust fly :)

I doubt there will ever be THE BROWSER 1.0 FINAL ... There's too much 
sharky business stuff that goes on behind the scenes for the browsers to 
all work the same. Without some sort of branding, there only would be 
one browser probably. I'm not sure why the browser wars were so damn 
violent - so if anyone with more knowledge of that stuff wants to send 
out a verbose email on/offlist to me I'll be happy to turn on sponge 
mode. As I see it, Netscrape VS Internut Exploder was simple brand name 
competition - technically, possession is 9/10's the law as they say. 
More market share, more branding awareness, more business.

Now, at least the browsers are starting to all adopt standards which is 
definitely less of a headache for us as designers and coders. Even 
though they all agree on the standards though, each browser has it's own 
agenda - even Mozilla's Firebird has its own special CSS element 
properties that can be toyed with to do different things. You can see 
them all when using the DOM inspector within the program and loading up 
Computed Style, they all start with -moz from the bottom of the styles 
list up.

The engine deal goes right in hand with the branding - because in order 
to set themselves apart from others, every browser will at least have 
their own tweaked version of a standard engine. I think that right now 
with the rise of standards the big dogs are going to start to flop out 
unless they can keep up with the open source development of the Mozilla 
team. And to their own credit, Netscrape's 7.1 browser is actually very 
pretty and works quite well. Of course, it is driven by Gecko - 
Mozilla's open source web engine.

I dread seeing Microsoft's next IE release in the upcoming year. After 
this long without an update at all, they better be damn well sweating 
over hot keyboards with a new built-from-scratch engine driving the 
circus along. If they still have that same old legacy code plopped in 
there from IE6 I'm giving up on them as far as hope is concerned completely.

Of course, given they still hold top market share, we'll still have to 
support their lousy browser.

-Ryan

Taco Fleur wrote:

Will there ever be such a thing as a Standard Browser Engine/Parser or 
what ever you want to call it?

12 years ago when I first started web design I was already sick of the 
differences between how browsers display and handle things, back then 
I figured that after some time (12 years maybe) everybody would get 
their act together and at least use a default engine/parser for every 
browser..

Whats the deal? Is anybody working on this, will it ever happen?

Why do so many designers still use and code for browsers that are not 
within the top highest browser market share?
Isn't it time to say, we now know what the users use (even though we 
don't agree with what they use) and completely forget about the rest?

If we all would do this and set our pride aside, I reckon we might 
have that dream we have come true!

Or am I just babbling away again, and talk about things I have no clue 
about??

*Taco Fleur
07 3535 5072*
Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn
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Re: [WSG] website help, fixing problem with ie5

2003-12-09 Thread Ryan Christie
Try redoing the layout aspects of the CSS using a shell from 
http://www.inknoise.com/experimental/layoutomatic.php ... For 
educational purposes I would keep an old copy of your stylesheet 
settings to check for differences.

The only markup error I noticed was in your html declaration. You 
should declare it as follows:
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en
If that fixes the spacing problem, all the better ;) I'm just a trained 
monkey, and my master (W3C) says that's how the cookie crumbles.

I suspect that it would have something to do with margins or pad 
settings. If you do not define the margins or paddings in IE as zero 
explicitly, the browser will make up its own values and misbehave 
accordingly.

IE versions are really a tiresome ordeal to work with. I feel your pain.

Ryan
--
Heck with kids - standards are our future.
Webmaster, http://www.theward.net
Hill, Tim wrote:

Hi, sorry to do this but I cant find the problem I am having.

The address is http://www.pinkforlife.info/new/home.html

My site is structured with;

A header div

A container div, that contains, a content (left), and nav (right)

A footer div

In ie5 there is a gap from the containing div to the header, and footer.

Margins dont seem to remove this. But if I add a border to the 
container div on the top and bottom, it removes the gap on the top.

I dont think it is a box model problem but I could be wrong. I am 
using XHTML transitional for my DTD.

Thanks for any help.

Tim Hill

Computer Associates

Graphic Artist

tel: +612 9937 0792

fax: +612 9937 0546

[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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