Re: [WSG] Picture Login

2012-01-19 Thread Tony Lim
Hi Marvin,
I'll have a look


Tony Lim

Media  Marketing Department
Hobie Cat Australasia
11 Erina Road
Huskisson NSW 2540

P  + 61 2 44418 400 ext:116
F  + 61 2 44418 444
m +61 438 646 243
t...@hobiecat.com.aumailto:t...@hobiecat.com.au
www.hobiecat.com.auhttp://www.hobiecat.com.au/
www.hobiefishing.com.auhttp://www.hobiefishing.com.au/
www.hobiesup.com.auhttp://www.hobiesup.com.au/

Confidentiality 
Noticehttp://hobiecat.com.au/support/confidentialitynotice.html



On 20/01/2012, at 2:07 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

Hi.
when i registered for this group a few years ago, did i upload a picture of my 
self.
is this allowed.
looking for a picture of my self, and do not have it on my computer any more.
have searched on google a picture of marvin hunkin.
need this now, as learning php, and the current exercises i doing, says i need 
a picture to upload.
if any one can help out, or knows where i can find a picture of my self.
let me know.
i am totally blind, my parents do not have a digital camera, and hard to take 
the picture on their mobile, and have internet and e-mail disabled, as on a 
prepaid card.
Marvin.

--
Join My Blind-Aid group at :
http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/Blind-Aid
To join this group , send a blank message to:
blind-aid-subscr...@yahoogroups.com



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Re: [WSG] adobe tools that works well with jaws?

2011-08-25 Thread Tony Crockford
 
 From: Adam Martin ajmartin...@gmail.com
 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 08:32:24 +0100
 
 
 I guess we don't go to boldfish.co.uk for compassion!!!
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On 24 Aug 2011, at 07:16, Tony Crockford to...@boldfish.co.uk wrote:
 
 On 24 Aug 2011, at 01:09, Jay Tanna wrote:
 
 You are doing an online course and yet you don't know how to find out wha
 t is included in the Web design suite!  How about going to Adobe's website a
 nd do your own research?  You never know this could help you fine tune your r
 esearch skills.
 
 Do we also have to give you the Adobe's website address?  I hope not!
 
 hth
 
 Maybe you'd like to try blindfolded?
 
 The clue for the intent of the question is in the Subject.
 


Take care who you admonish please, I was trying to point out to Jay that 
telling someone with visual impairment to look harder was a little unfair.






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Re: [WSG] adobe tools that works well with jaws?

2011-08-24 Thread Tony Crockford
On 24 Aug 2011, at 01:09, Jay Tanna wrote:
 
 You are doing an online course and yet you don't know how to find out what is 
 included in the Web design suite!  How about going to Adobe's website and do 
 your own research?  You never know this could help you fine tune your 
 research skills.
 
 Do we also have to give you the Adobe's website address?  I hope not!
 
 hth

Maybe you'd like to try blindfolded?

The clue for the intent of the question is in the Subject.






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Re: [WSG] RE: Fonts in MS Publisher compared to onlineRe:

2010-09-15 Thread Tony Crockford
On 15 Sep 2010, at 03:20, Luke Hoggett wrote:
 Check out 
 Google Font Directory http://code.google.com/webfonts
 TypeKit http://typekit.com/ which can be used through Google Font Directory

and Cufón, and @font-face with packs from font squirrel:

Cufón:
http://github.com/sorccu/cufon/wiki/About
and the generator:
http://cufon.shoqolate.com/generate/

@font-face:
http://www.miltonbayer.com/font-face/
http://www.fontsquirrel.com/




-- 
Tony Crockford
to...@boldfish.co.uk





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Re: [WSG] Getting my feet wet in HTML5

2010-08-13 Thread Tony Crockford
On 13 Aug 2010, at 18:51, Ted Drake wrote:
 You need to build a site to learn HTML5 semantics, it's like the old days of 
 hybrid table-based layouts. 7 years ago you really needed to ditch tables to 
 truly understand CSS. 


Are you suggesting that to switch to HTML5 we should avoid the use of div 
entirely, using only section, article etc to chunk up the content?





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Re: [WSG] Re WSG Digest

2009-08-03 Thread Tony McNulty
Just for that I think we should keep him on!
-Original Message-
From: Brett Patterson inspiron.patters...@gmail.com

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:35:16 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re WSG Digest


Please remove this user from the group ASAP!

--
Brett P.



On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Daniel Rowan 
danielpaulro...@googlemail.com wrote:

 Stop emailling me you fucktards i unsubscribed leave me alone!

 On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:40 PM, TapirDesigns 
 desi...@tapirdesigns.co.ukwrote:

 I am currently away until 5th August but will get back to you as soon as
 possible on my return.


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RE: [WSG] Web governance

2008-11-23 Thread Tony Paterson
Ladies and Gents 
I am seeking JV partners for some of our company's websites
If you have any interest please call or email me
Cheers
 
 
Tony Paterson
Tel. 03 5981 4457 
Our other great sites now include:-
www.DirectoryAustralia.com- Can you be found?- are you listed? Why Not it's
free!
 http://www.ozengine.com/ www.Postcodes.com.au  easy to find postcodes and
cities and towns.
 http://www.sportaustralia.com.au/ www.SportAustralia.com.au  where every
local sporting club can  have a webpage for free and there are more to sites
to choose from cricket, football, netball and more
 http://www.cars.com.au/ www.Classifieds.com.au free to advertise (new
site coming soon)
accommodationasia.com world wide at the best prices
www.Cars.com.au where the best and motoring clubs can earn $$$ also see site
for details
 http://www.e-cards.com.au/ www.e-cards.com.au send that special someone a
card it's free
and more to come  
Alliances  Business Partner?  See  http://www.e-info.com.au/
www.e-info.com.au  (joint ventures) send request to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew R
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 4:14 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Web governance
 
I realise the list is very much about nuts and bolt of standards. So this
might not be the right place for this posting and might be deemed to be 'off
topic'. If it is please ignore!
 
I work in a large (lumbering) Australian federal government agency. My
colleges in the web publishing section see developing standards compliant
web sites as normal professional practice. However, some other parts of the
organisation, mainly 'traditional' developers in the IT section, simply
don't get it. The outcome of this is some of the organisation's web based
applications are riddled with problems caused by poor coding practices.
These manifest themselves as accessibility issues, difficulties with cross
browser compatibility, and significant bottle necks applying updates to
branding and presentation. The problems are steadily growing as the
organisation builds more and more web interfaces to various applications and
systems.
 
To date the web section has taken the approach of trying to work with the
developers in the IT area to help them understand the techniques and
benefits web standards. However, this has been problematic because there is
a lack of more formal mechanisms to enforce compliances.
 
This brings me on to my question for the group. I'm currently looking for
web channel governance models suitable for applying in a large public sector
organisation that is moving towards significant delivery of services
on-line. Can anyone give me some pointers, do have something that works in
your organsiation, etc?
 
The few models that I have found are geared at managing inter/intra net
sites with a strong emphasis on managing content publishing and how this is
used as a communication/marketing tool. For example
http://egovau.blogspot.com/2008/07/drawing-lines-effectively-structuring.ht
ml
http://egovau.blogspot.com/2008/07/drawing-lines-effectively-structuring.htm
l. This approach tends to place the Marketing sections as the owner and
avoids engagement with an organisation's IT area.  The problem is online
services delivery is much bigger then the traditional 'communications'
business activities, they cut across many parts of the organisation and
require complex integration with other systems. 
 
Help!
 
Andrew
 

 
 
  _  

Get the best wallpapers on the Web - FREE. Click
http://wallpapers.msn.com/?ocid=%5bB001MSN42A0716B%5d  here!

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RE: [WSG] Browser loading images issue

2008-10-15 Thread Tony Paterson
Hi all 
I am looking for tenders for 
1. search engine sites  both. .com.au and .com
2. .com.au classifieds site
3. News site both .com and .com.au
Anyone interested on quoting please contact me
Thanks
Tony Paterson
Tel: +61 3 5981 4457
 
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kristine Cummins
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 5:55 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Browser loading images issue

Hi all,

I'm still having this issue as the client is contacting about images simply
not showing up but on refresh, they do. Frustrating as I don't know how to
solve this issue. 

The page is http://www.cpwrehab.com/employee_listing.html
Stylesheet is: http://www.cpwrehab.com/styles.css


Thanks,
Kristine


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kristine Cummins
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Browser loading images issue

I noticed that sometimes some images will not load upon visiting a page
while others on the page will, but when I hit the browser's refresh button,
the image will load. This was happening in IE, but no other browser. Anyone
have any ideas how to fix this issue?

Thanks,
Kristine



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Re: [WSG] Uppercase Tag Names

2008-09-26 Thread Tony McNulty
Hi James,

While not a good practice, there may be the ulterior motive of the teacher to 
get you used to conforming to other people's standards. In the workplace, you 
will have to do this too - you may find yourself in similar situations, where 
you have to maintain legacy systems, where converted the mass of old 
code/markup isn't practical. 

It's more likely that the teacher is stuck in the nineties, but it's a good 
exercise nonetheless. Definitely recommend that he chooses better practices in 
your submission or end of course feedback though, but don't rebel :-D 

Cheers,

Tony
-Original Message-
From: James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:38:39 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Uppercase Tag Names


I am at university at the moment, and they said to use uppercase text for
tag names and lowercase for attributes. I have to do it because otherwise I
will lose a mark.

I disagreed (because it makes the source hard to read) but he said you need
to so that you can conform to HTML 4.01.

I think this a case of someone reading far to deep into the specs. I didn't
really want to argue with him because he assumes I know nothing. I do know
that the source code has become difficult to read using that method.


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Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell

2008-08-07 Thread Tony McNulty
That could have been off list too

:-D 
--Original Message--
From: Mike Brown
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
ReplyTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: 7 Aug 2008 20:56
Subject: Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell

kevin mcmonagle wrote:
 joseph i keep my brightness at 0, and thought it matched.
 thanks for the tip
 
 Joseph Taylor wrote:
 Kevin,

 If I may make a recommendation, adjust the background color of your 
 cells to match the bottom color of your background gradients so when 
 text gets enlarged it still looks smooth inside the cell rather than 
 having the graphic cut off.
 

Kevin

Honestly, there is no reason to send a simple thanks to the *whole* 
list. Just a reply to the person you're thanking would be appropriate 
and wouldn't increase the email overload for thousands of others on this 
list.

Thank you.

Mike


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Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page

2008-07-31 Thread Tony McNulty
Hmm,

What about just making it the size of the viewport, and stopping scrolling? 
Maybe an overflow: hidden on the body?

Cheers,

Tony
-Original Message-
From: Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:48:48 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page


That's already what I'm doing. Not the problem here, though. The issue
isn't whether the overlay and disclaimer appear - I have that bit
working just fine. The issue is making the overlay extend all the way
to the bottom of the page if the page is longer than the viewport.

Cheers,

Seona.

2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Doesn't have to be a separate divert page, you can just use the session
 variable to decided whether the overlay element is displayed on each page

 regards
 Luke

 Seona Bellamy wrote:

 What, and divert them to the agreement page if they'rve not agreed?
 Hmm... not sure that I'll get the go-ahead to do that. We're working
 to some fairly tight design requirements.

 I've already got it saving the session variable once they agree, so
 that they only get bothered once.

 Cheers,

 Seona.

 2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 Depending on what/whether you're using anything server side, just set a
 session variable that records whether the person has agreed to the terms, do
 this across every page and no worries for Google or any other entry that
 doesn't come from the front page.

 regards
 Luke


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Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page

2008-07-31 Thread Tony McNulty
But that doesn't stop you from adding more css in the markup for this feature, 
to override the default styles. 
-Original Message-
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:09:30 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page


no JS - no decision ;)

2008/7/31 Tony McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Hmm,

 What about just making it the size of the viewport, and stopping scrolling?
 Maybe an overflow: hidden on the body?

 Cheers,

 Tony
 -Original Message-
 From: Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:48:48
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page


 That's already what I'm doing. Not the problem here, though. The issue
 isn't whether the overlay and disclaimer appear - I have that bit
 working just fine. The issue is making the overlay extend all the way
 to the bottom of the page if the page is longer than the viewport.

 Cheers,

 Seona.

 2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  Doesn't have to be a separate divert page, you can just use the session
  variable to decided whether the overlay element is displayed on each
 page
 
  regards
  Luke
 
  Seona Bellamy wrote:
 
  What, and divert them to the agreement page if they'rve not agreed?
  Hmm... not sure that I'll get the go-ahead to do that. We're working
  to some fairly tight design requirements.
 
  I've already got it saving the session variable once they agree, so
  that they only get bothered once.
 
  Cheers,
 
  Seona.
 
  2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
 
  Depending on what/whether you're using anything server side, just set a
  session variable that records whether the person has agreed to the terms,
 do
  this across every page and no worries for Google or any other entry that
  doesn't come from the front page.
 
  regards
  Luke


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

2008-05-28 Thread Tony McNulty
Hi Chris,

I've always done that too, it's always seemed to make the most sense here too. 
I've seen many sites that use image tags instead and do concede the point that 
without css, the logo could still be considered as worthy showing. 

I wonder if there would be a good middle ground with this. 

Cheers,

Tony
-Original Message-
From: Chris Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:49:21 
To:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo


Hi, 
  
For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I 
just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to 
using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however 
I’d be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. 
  
Cheers 
  
  
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Re: [WSG] repeating background png support ie6

2008-02-19 Thread Tony

Hey Kevin,

I have the same problem with my ies4linux, so I just use an online 
tester. For quick checks of IE6/7 I use the netrenderer: 
http://ipinfo.info/netrenderer/ and for more advanced checks use 
browsershots: http://browsershots.org/


Cheers,

Tony

kevin mcmonagle wrote:

Hi,
Whats the standards way to handle or degrade ie6 png support for a 
repeating background img?
Im having problems solving this-ies4mac doesn't seem to do well with 
conditional comments and png hacks-so i cant tell whats working.


Im thinking about putting the wrapper div with the repeating 
background image in two different stylesheets. One with a png for 
normal browsers and one with a gif for ie then i would just hide the 
png from ie6 and give it the gif one  with conditional comments.


Also if anyone can email me a screen shot from ie6 off list that would 
be great.


beta page:

http://www.arasgcc.com/indextest.html

-thanks
kevin







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Re: [WSG] strange css behavior

2007-12-18 Thread Tony Crockford


On 18 Dec 2007, at 23:32, Michael Horowitz wrote:

People may remember I'm working on an issue where when I click on  
one link on my site http://theatomicconservative.typepad.com/ other  
links such as Subscribe to this blogs feed turn red as if they were  
visited.


Doing more testing I started changing the page without clicking on  
the link (ie putting the address directly in the browser) and the  
problem still occurs.   I'm wondering if this gives anyone an idea  
what I should look at.


what browser are you using for testing?

all the links i've visited are red in Safari

?

you know you need to clear your cache for the links to revert to  
*unvisited* before you can test this behaviour, and you know that the  
order for decalring the link states is crucial too?


perhaps the issue is related to your multiple declaration of link  
state  I assumeyou upgraded to Pro Level so you can properly customise  
the CSS?


why not look at an open source blog solution and some cheap web  
hosting, you're making life difficult for yourself trying to bend  
something to a shape it's not designed for!


;o)





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Re: [WSG] css issues

2007-12-14 Thread Tony Crockford


On 14 Dec 2007, at 17:32, Michael Horowitz wrote:


I am wondering if there is an issue in how I am redefining

.module-content
{
margin: 5px 0 20px 0;
color: #FF;
font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, sans-serif;
font-size: medium;
line-height: 150%;



text-align: left;
}

I can't change this code I can only append new css to the end of the  
file where I add



.module-content
{
 margin: 0px 0 0px 0;
color: #d22539;
}


Could I be doing something wrong here?


coming in late, but when I'm puzzled about things in CSS I add borders  
to the elements to see where they are.


I suspect you are removing the margins on the div okay, but that's not  
what's controlling the link widths - that's in the defaults, and might  
all come down to the widths you have set on the links..


;)


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Re: [WSG] css issues

2007-12-14 Thread Tony Crockford


On 14 Dec 2007, at 18:06, Michael Horowitz wrote:


Figured it out.  You can ignore this question.


no fair!

you're supposed to tell us what it was!

;)


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Re: [WSG] Colors for web design

2007-12-14 Thread Tony Crockford


On 14 Dec 2007, at 19:50, Michael Horowitz wrote:

Anyone know a good online resource or book that discusses how to  
decide the best color combinations for use on the web.


there's a lot of good information here:

http://www.tigercolor.com/color-lab/Default.htm (see the resources  
section)


(and if you're on windows I can vouch for the ColorImpact Software - I  
used it a lot before switching to OS X, and I'm still looking for  
something as nice)





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Re: [WSG] Disabling Fonts in Font Stacks

2007-11-29 Thread Tony Crockford


On 29 Nov 2007, at 10:46, James Leslie wrote:


Thanks everyone for your responses to this.

I might give the stylish extension a try or just stick to removing  
them

by hand in the web developer extension.


Sorry, bit late to the party, but FontExplorer X allows you to  
activate and de-activate fonts, might be worth a try, I seem to recall  
having to close and re-open the browser...



http://www.linotype.com/fontexplorerX?


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Re: [WSG] Site content not showing up in Firefox on Leopard

2007-11-20 Thread Tony Crockford


On 20 Nov 2007, at 14:53, Christian Montoya wrote:


Here is a screenshot of a page from my site in Firefox 2.0.0.9 on
Leopard 10.5.1:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thephotoherald/2049540131/

I have no idea why so much text is not appearing at all. Could someone
with Leopard look into this for me? Thanks in advance.


just compared them in Safari and Firefox on Leopard and it looks the  
same - i.e. no missing text.


did get a report of problems here:

plia href=http://www.christianmontoya.com/2007/11/19/how- 
familiar/ title=How familiarHow familiar/a:/p


pa href=http://www.uniqlo.com/grid/;UNIQLO_GRID/a reminds me  
very muchly of my latest a href=http://apps.facebook.com/ 
mob_art/Facebook app/a, which people are finally playing with.  
Maybe tonight I'll add multiple color options. Also, a href=http://apps.facebook.com/businessiq/ 
Business IQ/a is much more playable now./p


p/li/p

to do with nesting I guess..

but it looks fine in that it doesn't match your screenie.

;)


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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

2007-10-29 Thread Tony Crockford


On 29 Oct 2007, at 15:46, Simon Cockayne wrote:


Hi,

I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.

Is this true* or did I dream it?

*To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.


Google specifically caution against hiding text with CSS:

http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353

is that what you meant?



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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

2007-10-29 Thread Tony Crockford


On 29 Oct 2007, at 17:43, James Jeffery wrote:


I highly doubt that presentational styles will effect SEO.

When you use display:none you are not removing the
content from the source, you are just hiding it from
users viewing the web page.

If you was to remove the element from the source using
DOM that would be different.



The whole point is that you leave it in the source for the web spiders  
to index and remove it from plain view for the visitor, so they don't  
see your multiple keyword spam


read the google guidelines linked to below.



Google specifically caution against hiding text with CSS:

http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66353

is that what you meant?




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Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

2007-10-20 Thread Tony Crockford


On 20 Oct 2007, at 10:18, James Jeffery wrote:

 Should i use my essay and examples and
take it to the head of
the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its  
definatly a

problem.



Who set the syllabus?

Assuming it's the college administration, then they are the people to  
discuss your concerns with.


don't assume the tutor is at fault.

have a private chat with him, if he truly isn't aware of web  
standards, then you can tell him that you will be speaking to the  
college administration about the syllabus being taught and its  
shortcomings.


if he is aware, but is bound by the syllabus, then you may find an  
ally in your quest.


either way, have the private chat,  challenging him in front of  
class, is bound to create a defensive stance from him.


if the syllabus is wrong (as it appears to be) work your way through  
the college administration, explaining that the methods being taught  
are wrong and using this as support for your case:


http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/government_it/web_guidelines/ 
consultations.aspx


In order to meet European objectives for inclusive e-government and  
so that the UK public sector meets its obligations with regards to  
disability legislation, we have proposed that all government websites  
must meet Level Double-A of the W3C guidelines by December 2008.
Government websites are strongly recommended to develop an  
accessibility policy to aid the planning and procurement of inclusive  
websites. This includes building a business case, analysing user  
needs, developing an accessibility test plan and procuring accessible  
content authoring tools. The guidance covers some of the design  
solutions to common problems faced by users but is mainly aimed at  
strategic managers and project managers to assist with planning and  
procurement.




try not to be adversarial, you'll get a better response with a can  
you explain why we are learning outdated methods approach.




hth and good luck...





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Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash

2007-10-17 Thread Tony Crockford


On 17 Oct 2007, at 04:56, Nick Cowie wrote:


I was experimenting with HTML over flash, and while param  
name=wmode
value=transparent / works great on Windows. The flash plugin  
could not
get the order right for OsX or *nix, no matter what I tried (source  
order,
z-index etc). It was purely random 50% of the time the flash would  
appear
over the HTML and the other 50% of the time the HTML would appear  
over the
flash file. I was using it on a footer and could just scroll up and  
down the

page a few times to get different results.


in my experience wmode transparent doesn't work for any *nix browser  
- nothing I tried seems to let *nix browsers do anything other than  
render flash movies on top of everything else...


OS X seemed okay mind...

YMMV

my test:
www.boldfishclient.co.uk/go/flash

the browsercam results:
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=383238

hth


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Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash

2007-10-17 Thread Tony Crockford


On 17 Oct 2007, at 08:01, Michael Kear wrote:

Nick I'm away from my Mac machine for a couple of weeks .. Do you  
think you
(or someone else with a mac)  could do me a favour and have a look  
at the
page in question and tell me if the problem is fixed or not on your  
mac?


I see the dropdown over the flash on my Mac Pro in Safari and  
Firefox, but in firefox the font specified for the drop downs is way  
too small and pixellates... to become unreadable.


I'll try and get screenshots to you.

hth



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Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-05 Thread Tony Crockford


On 5 Oct 2007, at 06:02, Christie Mason wrote:

 No one has a right to shop at Target.


I think that's the real point of disagreement in this whole discussion.

As a society we have allowed the concept of ownership and commerce[1]  
and in order to enable those concepts to work we have rules about how  
ownership works and how commerce works, e.g what is theft, and who  
can you sell what to[2].


We also have rules about how people should be treated, e.g women  
should be treated the same as men, children should be cared for not  
abused, and you shouldn't treat some different because they're not  
the same as you.


so if we have a rule that says you can't provide a service to one  
group of people and not another, then yes, everyone does have a  
*right* to shop at Target.


explain to me why that's not true and I might be able to understand  
the rest of your argument.


Tony.




[1] we don't have finders-keepers and it's mine, I saw it first  
or give it to me or I'll pull your hair as social rules outside the  
playground (and I suspect our educators are doing their best to  
change those rules too...)


[2] gunsol, alchohol, fireworks, drugs etc all have legislation to  
control their commerce.



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Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-05 Thread Tony Crockford


On 5 Oct 2007, at 08:15, Christie Mason wrote:



There are many ways to change a culture, but legislating is not one  
of them.


what you appear to be missing is that when all other attempts fail,  
legislation and enforcement of legislation is the only socially  
acceptable way left.


Target chose not to change to meet the needs of a group of  
disadvantaged people who asked nicely for some simple to implement  
changes that would enable them to use the Target  web site, those  
disadvantaged people have now chosen to test the legislation that  
prevents them being discriminated against in a case against a high  
profile company in the hope that by highlighting the issues of  
discrimination, that other people will be persuaded enough for a  
culture change.


without legislation how would *you* ensure fair treatment for all?

at one point in history women were second class citizens and it took  
a whole heap of direct action and eventual legislation to get to  
where we are today...


;)





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Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility

2007-10-05 Thread Tony Crockford


On 5 Oct 2007, at 10:03, Geoff Pack wrote:



Tony Crockford wrote:

we don't have finders-keepers and it's mine, I saw it first
or give it to me or I'll pull your hair as social rules outside
the playground (and I suspect our educators are doing their best
to change those rules too...)


Well, actually we do. What do you think happened when the Europeans  
got

to the new world?


that's history and I'm speaking of the now.

my grandfathers generation put cripples on the street as beggars...

;o)



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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Tony Crockford


On 4 Oct 2007, at 04:33, Jim Davies wrote:


Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government  
entity should be telling a private business what it must do


WHAT?

with that one line you have just summarised all that is strange about  
America.  Private business is above the law?  They can do whatever  
they like?


so it's okay if a private business murders people?

what about paying taxes?  the government tells them to do that, are  
you saying that a private business can decide not to pay tax?


sheesh.

whatever country we live in, we're all on the same planet and laws  
are generally made by the people for the people to protect the people...



I just woke up to an inbox full of misguided bigotry and confused  
logic that makes me wonder why I'm on this list.


;(




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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Tony Crockford


On 4 Oct 2007, at 08:33, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:


Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government
entity should be telling a private business what it must do


WHAT?

with that one line you have just summarised all that is strange about
America.  Private business is above the law?  They can do whatever
they like?

so it's okay if a private business murders people?

what about paying taxes?  the government tells them to do that, are
you saying that a private business can decide not to pay tax?



I think these were mentioned in the part of the post you did not
include in your quote... Interesting quoting tactics.


well, no, they weren't specifically mentioned.  what was said was my  
quote above and this (which you might be referring to):


Bottom line is the government has no business sticking its nose in a  
private business as long as health and safety issues are not the  
issue. It doesn't even need to know how much money a business makes  
except we are forced to report it for our out of control IRS  
requirements.


to which I strongly disagree, but that's not the point, and I'm not  
sure why you tackled me on it, when the issue is about if an anti  
discrimination law should be enforced - I think it should, and Jim  
Davies disagrees, that's all I'm saying - what are you saying?


;)







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Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2007-10-04 Thread Tony Crockford


On 4 Oct 2007, at 17:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I try to ensure my professional work is accessible, but I am far from
being persuaded that legislation of this nature can ever be effective,
without also being a burden on smaller sites, particularly those that
are no longer actively maintained.


tongue-in-cheek

Maybe we *should* legislate to get rid of sites that are no longer  
actively maintained?


/tongue-in-cheek

;)


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash With Jaws

2007-09-27 Thread Tony Crockford


On 27 Sep 2007, at 09:48, James Jeffery wrote:


And i also said a blind person can create graphics, but only at a  
certain

level.


there are also degrees of sight impairment.

I think we should all review our attitudes to sight and sightedness  
before assuming that vision impairment and the use of a screen reader  
automatically means totally blind.


shades of grey, not Black and White thinking

;o)


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Re: [WSG] Form styling

2007-09-26 Thread Tony Crockford


On 26 Sep 2007, at 18:15, Tom Livingston wrote:

 Does anyone have a favorite
resource for dealing with forms.


how about:
http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/accessibility-tools/form- 
builder/default.php?type=css

http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/stylish_accessible_forms.html

and the one I usually base mine on:
http://www.aplus.co.yu/lab/forms/?css=1


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Re: [WSG] magazine

2007-09-20 Thread Tony Crockford


On 20 Sep 2007, at 21:28, Rick Lecoat wrote:


On 20/9/07 (20:57) Rafael said:

I'm looking for a good offline (printed version) magazine to stay  
tune

with the latest news about Web 2.0, Javascript, Ajax, CSS and Web
Standarts.

Do you have any ideas?


I get Web Designer (Imagine Publishing) and .Net (Future  
Publishing). I

find both to be really good sources of information. Much of their
content is way beyond my knowledge, which I take to be a good sign --
magazines I can grow into, so to speak.



I'm not familiar with Web Designer, but I know that a fair number of  
the .Net journos frequent lists like this and then interview people  
for *stuff* to print.


I suspect the latest news about your list of topics is right here on  
the web in blogs and RSS feeds, rather than some over-priced fancy- 
schmancy print mag like .Net has become...


(IMHO of course!)




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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up

2007-09-07 Thread Tony Crockford


On 7 Sep 2007, at 00:39, Felix Miata wrote:


On 2007/09/06 20:42 (GMT+0100) Tony Crockford apparently typed:


so, what happens if a user has their default font set larger than the
browser default in this case?


Can't happen. Browser default == user default. :-p


You *know* I meant manufacturer browser default...

so what happens if a user has altered the browser default to a larger  
size.


does body: 100% mean that all other measurements are then derived  
from the users, larger font setting?


if so am I safe setting body: 100% and then setting text elements  
using ems?


if i check in a range of sizes (IE smallest - IE largest) on a range  
of screens and the design doesn't break - is that okay?


I'm sure it is.





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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up

2007-09-07 Thread Tony Crockford


On 7 Sep 2007, at 00:03, Felix Miata wrote:


Don't what? Don't understand your instruction? Don't believe your  
instruction? Don't let you try to instruct them? Don't look at the  
good example sites you offer them? ? ? ?


yes to all of those.

most real world clients I am aware of are being driven by different  
desires than accessibility.


I have been an accessibility evangalist for many years, but the real  
world is a wrld compromise and conformity.  they believe what they  
want to believe, the see what they see and what feels right to them  
is what they want.


 Do they understand that it's good business to treat customers  
right, which on the WWW means big, easy-to-read text?

http://www.lighthouse.org/accessibility/top-10/


I have trouble reading that site.

first off, with a window set to 1024x768 on my 30 dell on OS X this  
line:


6. The fastest growing market segment is Americans age 50+. In fact,  
every seven


is over seven inches long, which makes it hard to scan - each word  
becomes discrete letters if you understand me...


if I remove my reading glasses, the text is so large and contrasty  
that I get double vision blurring.  my glasses correct my astigmatism.


so in my case I want text that's readable with my glasses on, not  
text sized so large I can't scan it.


I wonder how many of these studies took into account that most web  
users with poor vision, use some means of corrective device?




body {font-size: medium !important;}

That simplicity cannot work on sites where fonts are set on  
particular elements, or via class ids or names. Anything much  
beyond that one rule is beyond the capability of any besides web  
design professionals accustomed to

routine use of CSS.


I've been using CSS for seven years or more and I'm trying to adopt  
best practice in a pragmatic way, which means I can't deliver my  
clients sites with excessively large fonts - they are trying to  
design interfaces that look attractive and create income for their  
business.  I'm trying to ensure the sites they get are as accessible  
as possible, we have to meet somewhere in the middle.


and talking of UI, why are we fighting for 16px fonts in browsers  
when most UI text is much smaller?




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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up

2007-09-06 Thread Tony Crockford


On 6 Sep 2007, at 17:39, Rick Lecoat wrote:


The issue of whether an unchanged default setting, except when left as
it is by deliberate choice, should be considered a 'user  
preference' in

the context of most people have their preferred size set to 16px has
not really been decided for me, but maybe it's like trying to prove a
negative.


default settings aren't user preferences, they are manufacturer  
preferences.


only when a user changes those defaults do they become the preference  
of the user.


surely?

and I'm not just referring to browsers, I'm talking generally.

I believe we're talking this thing round in circles, but if *most*  
users leave the defaults as they are and most designers have set the  
fonts on most sites smaller than the defaults then the norm for  
*most* users is smaller than default.


we're in a catch 22 as I see it.

if the browser manufacturers make the defaults smaller, then a lot of  
web sites break.  If you don't adjust  the font size at all it looks  
bigger than expected to *most* users - and if the client is looking  
at their site compared to everyone else they also expect it to look  
similar, not have massive fonts.


perhaps the wise and good on his list would make it blindingly  
obvious which is the best and most pragmatic way to set font-size to  
conform to the norm - i.e. smaller than the default *without* messing  
up the minority of web users who have changed the defaults in their  
browser.


which I think is the crux of the matter, since in the absence of hard  
evidence all our feelings on who has set what and what they think to  
the norm is pointless.


I'd like a foolproof way of pleasing my client, without upsetting  
anyone.


is there a way?

;)







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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up

2007-09-06 Thread Tony Crockford


On 6 Sep 2007, at 18:30, Felix Miata wrote:


On 2007/09/06 17:58 (GMT+0100) Tony Crockford apparently typed:


- and if the client is looking
at their site compared to everyone else they also expect it to look
similar, not have massive fonts.


You're the expert. Your clientele is a limited universe you can try  
to educate. You could offer it a look at some authoritative sites  
that both exhibit respect and recommend respect.


but sadly, in my world, they don't.

The majority is what they want to *be* like.

I'm still looking for a best practice solution to reducing font size  
to the *norm* and not causing problems when I do so.


have you any suggestions on that front?




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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up

2007-09-06 Thread Tony Crockford


On 6 Sep 2007, at 20:32, dwain wrote:


Tony Crockford wrote:



I'm still looking for a best practice solution to reducing font  
size to the *norm* and not causing problems when I do so.


have you any suggestions on that front?

in web design and the way the viewer can set font limits, i don't  
think there is a *norm*.  setting your font size to 100% in the  
body and then using ems or percentages to shrink font size is  
what i would recommend.


That's what I've been doing.

what are the downsides of this approach?

who do they affect? how are they affected.

(I'm slightly hazy on the whole user set browser defaults thing,  
there seem to be a number of options including application  
preferences and user stylesheets. and a combination of minimum fonts,  
ignore all fonts and larger/smaller text settings in IE)


so, what happens if a user has their default font set larger than the  
browser default in this case?


conversely what happens if they have set their default smaller than  
the manufacturer shipped settings?


Maybe Felix explained it, but I didn't understand it, can someone  
just make it simple, so I can judge the merit of this pragmatism?


tia








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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up

2007-09-05 Thread Tony Crockford


On 5 Sep 2007, at 15:21, Felix Miata wrote:


Who made this a fact? Just because web designers, a group with the  
following

characteristics (creating a bias among them) to distinguish it from an
average member of the general public:

1-detail oriented (more comfortable than average with small things)
2-use large computer displays
3-leave their browsers set to the defaults that they believe most  
people use

(untweaked to suit their own personal preferences)
4-young (have not yet reached age of deteriorating eyesight)

think it so, doesn't make it so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Proof_by_assertion


right back at you.

I'm 50 with imperfect vision, and still a web designer. (I do have a  
big screen with unchanged browser settings I'll grant you)


A lot of the web designers I know are not young and most of them wear  
glasses.


so proof by assertion works both ways.


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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up

2007-09-05 Thread Tony Crockford


On 5 Sep 2007, at 20:15, Felix Miata wrote:

 There's already proof in the results - the web is overwhelmed by  
sites that set fonts
smaller than the defaults - and the consequence that normal web  
users don't like it. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html


Is it possible that the last few years of preaching about font sizes  
*has* made a difference?


I don't remember the last time I visited a mainstream site and found  
the fonts smaller than normal.


can you point to some popular sites (I mean mainstream popular sites)  
where the fonts are

(a) non-resizable and
(b) too small

I think most of us *get it*.

leave the default alone so as not to interfere with the minority of  
users that have adjusted their browser font size and then adjust to  
what seems to be the norm, or what the client asks for.


(it's not 16px AFAICT)

why is it, I ask in all honesty, that the comments pages of the BBC  
site aren't full of complaints that the fonts are unreadable? (they  
care about Accessibility too - http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/)


(FYI, my big screen is for usable screen space, not font size - I  
code in TextMate using a bitmap font at 9pt and the screen resolution  
is 2560x1600 and I'm viewing it from about arms length with my  
reading glasses on.)


When was the last time normal users were asked about font sizes?
How normal are Jacobs Alertbox subscribers and just how many of them  
responded to his quiz two years ago?





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Re: [WSG] Font sizing: top down or bottom up

2007-09-05 Thread Tony Crockford


On 5 Sep 2007, at 22:04, Felix Miata wrote:


On 2007/09/05 21:06 (GMT+0100) Tony Crockford apparently typed:


I don't remember the last time I visited a mainstream site and found
the fonts smaller than normal.



can you point to some popular sites (I mean mainstream popular sites)
where the fonts are
(a) non-resizable and
(b) too small


BBC News seems to be still as described on http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ 
SS/bbcSS.html (body is still 'font:normal 13px Verdana, Arial,  
Helvetica, sans-serif, MS sans serif;').


Which brings me back to the question:

Who says it's too small?

which you don't seem to be able to answer in an objective way.

I'm suggesting that normal users don't find the BBC site too small,  
or they would have complained and the BBC, being responsible and  
interested, would have done something about it.


;o)


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Re: [WSG] setting fontsize in body

2007-08-09 Thread Tony Crockford


On 9 Aug 2007, at 07:27, Felix Miata wrote:


On 2007/08/07 20:38 (GMT+0100) Alastair Campbell apparently typed:


You could take Jacob Neilsons finding that small fonts were the most
popular 'mistake' as proof that people don't know how to change their
settings


Or you could take it as proof that web designers as a group have  
perfect

vision, and fail to understand normal web users as a group do not have
perfect vision, resulting in fonts on web pages just right for most  
web

designers and too small for most others.


or it could be, that a lot of designers don't have perfect eyesight,  
wear glasses and when sites were designed for 640x480 wanted to cram  
as much message into the above the fold area as they could so  
reduced the font size to do so.


line length and readability have as much to do with the problem as  
font-size.


I have poor eyesight and a huge screen, yet I still set my code  
editor  to a bitmapped font of 9pt so I can see a decent amount of  
code at a time, the windows on my screen are generally no more than  
800px wide.





Millions of people cannot participate fully online because most  
Web sites
are built for people with perfect vision and the manual dexterity  
needed to

operate a mouse. http://xhtml.com/en/future/fixing-the-web-1/


millions of people cannot participate fully online because they don't  
have Internet Access.


However, I do agree we shouldn't be preventing users adjusting font  
sizes.


you did once post a useful method for setting a default on body that  
allowed the use of ems, but didn't change the users browser defaults,  
i can't remember what it was, though, was it set the body font-size  
to medium? or just use 100%.


IE being broken requires some setting on body font-size or em sizing  
will break.


what's the best pragmatic approach?

given that we can't (commercially) just let the browsers dictate font  
and font size (as times new roman at default doesn't give you many  
words per line and *is* hard to read) how best to set a font-size  
that doesn't prevent users from choosing something else.


my view has been that those that need something special, generally  
know how to do it and those that don't either don't care or can't be  
bothered.  e.g I find white text on a dark background difficult to  
read, so rarely spend time on sites with a dark theme.  Others I know  
find black text on white harder...  flexibility and choice are the  
key surely?





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Re: [WSG] CSS/IE Link Color Problem - SOLVED

2007-08-04 Thread Tony Crockford


On 4 Aug 2007, at 05:46, Cole Kuryakin wrote:

er-riding user styles??? I've never run into that one before.  
Irritating.


Aside from the !important solution or the (as yet untried) focus  
solution
that Kepler suggested, does anyone else have an even more elegant  
option or

... for my issue ... is this (these) the only ones that'll work?


In the past I have classed the li, rather than the a.

ul#navTopSimpleUL li.active a
{
color: #CC0033;
cursor: default;
text-decoration: none;
}

as it overcomes any pseudo differences.

however I have since stopped having links to the page on the page  
they are on (as they go nowhere and do nothing and AIUI are bad  
accessibility practice).


now I replace the link with the navigation text wrapped in a span  
(programatically) and style the span to match my active/hover needs.


e.g.

ul#navTopSimpleUL li a:focus,
ul#navTopSimpleUL li a:hover,
ul#navTopSimpleUL li.active span
{
color: #CC0033;
cursor: default;
text-decoration: none;
}




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Re: [WSG] CSS/IE Link Color Problem - SOLVED

2007-08-04 Thread Tony Crockford


On 4 Aug 2007, at 08:49, Cole Kuryakin wrote:

Why, however, do you wrap your link text in a span? Are there  
standards -

or some other - issues I'm not aware of if you simply border your
landing-page link text with the li's without span elements?


I use the span to apply other styling to the contained text in most  
cases.


I'm in the habit of not using horizontal padding, preferring to  
margin the contained text and often use borders for horizontal visual  
separation, bare text inside a li can't have a margin or a border   
and in that instance some other element is required to contain the text.


e.g

li class=activespanhome/span/li
li class=widera href=about.htmabout us/a/li
lia href=consultancy.htmconsultancy/a/li
lia href=training.htmtraining/a/li
lia href=testimonials.htmtestimonials/a/li
lia href=contact.htmcontact us/a/li
li class=lasta href=news.htmnews/a/li

gets styled:

div#nav ul li span,
div#nav ul li a{
   color: #FFF;
   background-color: #005EB0;
   font-size: 0.7em;
   font-family: tahoma, sans-serif;
   font-weight: bold;
   text-decoration: none;
   padding: 0 27px 0 26px;
   border-right: 1px solid #FFF;
   line-height: 2.2;
   text-transform:  uppercase;
   display: block;
}
div#nav ul li.last span,
div#nav ul li.last a{
   border: none;
}

div#nav ul li.active span,
div#nav ul li a:hover{
   color: #bfdfed;
}



if you're just styling the color of the text within the li, then I  
see no reason at all to use span.


YMMV


(P.S. I know the above code has accessibility issues of font-size,  
but I'm not always at liberty to surmount that with clients, and I  
also know that it should be ul#nav, rather than wrapping it in a div,  
but there you go and there are shorthand opportunities for font too,  
but hey)




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Re: [WSG] Font-size 62.5% problem

2007-07-02 Thread Tony Crockford

Paul Collins wrote:

The font stays slightly larger than 11px, when
I set it to 1.1em. this has worked fine on other sites, so not sure
why it isn't working here. Any ideas?


check that you haven't set a minimum font size in your browser preferences.

;)


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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

2007-06-28 Thread Tony Crockford

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Of course the branding shouldn't be an h1.



Totally disagree.


Why?

Seriously.

Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on every 
page of a web site.


isn't the page content more important than the branding?
isn't the headline for the page content the most important?





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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

2007-06-28 Thread Tony Crockford

Nick Gleitzman wrote:

Exactly. But I still contend that my company name, being most likely 
more unique than any name of goods or services that I provide, doesn't 
require as much semantic weight in my markup and it will *still* be 
easily found by those who already know I exist - but that the strongest 
weight is given to the name/s and description/s of what I'm offering, 
because *I* think that's what the majority of searchers will be looking 
for.


+1

and more eloquently put than my feeble attempts!

;)


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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

2007-06-27 Thread Tony Crockford

James Jeffery wrote:

H1 should be your company name, or logo.


Why?

shouldn't stuff that appears on every page, maybe in a div id=branding, 
be of less importance than the subject of the page?


I'd be doing:

head
titleRugby World Cup 2007 Packages - Glory Days/title
/head
body

div id=branding
	pGlory Daysspantickets, accommodation  travel packages for major 
events throughout the uk,europe and worldwide/span/p


div id=content
h1Rugby World Cup 2007 Packagesh1

content...
/div

/body

and applying appropriate visual styling to the branding elements.


(and I guess we now have both sides of the argument, so debate on...)


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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

2007-06-27 Thread Tony Crockford

Chris Taylor wrote:


However that means it's probably not going to be the first heading element
on the page, which is frowned upon by some. Can anyone else expand on the
reasons for that?


I think we need to be careful how we visualise page structure.

I prefer the pragmatic headed paper approach, which says that there's a 
header (branding) on every page, the content, and then a footer (often 
on every page)


using that concept, the heading structure begins with the content, not 
the branding.


can anyone explain why branding should be included in the page heading 
hierarchy?




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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

2007-06-27 Thread Tony Crockford

Web Man Walking wrote:
h1 id=companyGlory Days/h1

h2 id=taglinetickets, accommodation  travel packages for major events
throughout the uk, europe and worldwide/h2

div id=content
h1Rugby World Cup 2007 Packages/h1
/div

Would I penalised for something like this?


My understanding would be that the first h1 is the ones the search 
spiders use to determine what the page is about.  Hence I don't use 
headings for branding.


why do you want to put strapline and company names in hx's?


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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

2007-06-27 Thread Tony Crockford

James Jeffery wrote:
So basically what your trying to say is that branding is the least 
important part

of the page, so place it in a p ?


no, I'm saying what the page is about is the most important, so put that 
in the h1


take a multiple page site with branding on every page - after the first 
page you're more interested in what the page is about than which company 
it is.


if you're looking for widgets for your foobar then you want to find 
foobar widget pages, not a specific company...


for a while I put all the branding and footer information at the end of 
the source and then visually displayed it at the head.


SEO and semantics are tricky areas, I doubt we'd ever reach consensus, 
but my view of the web is as a collection of connected pages, rather 
than web sites as books with pages as chapters. (and it's how the search 
engines see the web too, in the most part)


on that basis the page content is the most important and therefore the 
semantic structure should follow content, not the book cover.


my 2p.

;)



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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

2007-06-27 Thread Tony Crockford

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I tend to agree with James Jeffery on this one. I just checked one of my 
sites front page and found not a single h1, h2 or h3. Yet many of my key 
words like 'group health insurance' or 'freedom blue ppo' show that site 
on Google first page. Oh how I wish I knew how some magic code like h1 
would place me on the first page for everything I create.


using headings that contain your key phrases are a clear indication to 
the search engine algorithm that this page is about that keyphrase.


if your page is all about Steam engines and steam engine is contained in 
the page title and a couple of headings, then the page will be ranked 
higher than a similar page that just contains the words steam engine a 
similar number of times.


page content and structure is just one small part of your SERP factor 
though, as inbound links, Page freshness and other factors play a large 
part too.



;o)




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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

2007-06-27 Thread Tony Crockford

Joseph Taylor wrote:
this conversation says that I should probably 
markup pages like:


div id=header
  vcard content=for company name  branding /
  other header info /
/div

div id=content
  h1My big page Heading/h1
  content /
/div

Seems pretty straight forward.  If the logo needs to be an image, we can 
make a vcard entry for that.  CSS will handle how it looks size-wise 
etc


Thoughts?


Add in some skip to links and I think you're onto a winner, as long as 
the content doesn't get too far down the source.


--
Join me: http://wiki.workalone.co.uk/
Engage me: http://www.boldfish.co.uk/portfolio/



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Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows

2007-06-12 Thread Tony Crockford

James Leslie wrote:

Just to add to the confusion... I have winXP SP2 with quicktime installed 
(previously, not as part of the safari install) and am having no problems at 
all with it. Fonts all seem to render nicely, even the bug button brings up a 
bug reporting page for me directly.



Me too, worked first time...


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Re: [WSG] Floating Divs Over Flash

2007-05-01 Thread Tony Crockford

John Gribben wrote:
Does anyone have any experience floating HTML elements over Flash via 
absolutely-positioned divs?  I know that this is possible with the most 
up-to-date browsers, but I’m not aware of how wise this is in terms of 
backward-compatibility.  Can anyone point to successful examples of this?


http://www.boldfishclient.co.uk/go/flash
(uses the UFO embedding method with wmode set to transparent)

Browsercam link to screen grabs to see cross browser efficiency:
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=344019

(Browsercam is still capturing as I type)

hth

;o)



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[WSG] Out of office reply

2007-04-21 Thread tony
Hi,

I will be off line the remainder of Friday April 20th.

If this is an urgent matter, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Regards,
Tony Chester - OnWired, LLC.





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[WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

2007-04-08 Thread Tony Chester - OnWired Web Solutions
This book could be useful as well. We plan on buying it next week ourselves.

http://www.amazon.com/Communicating-Design-Developing-Documentation-Planning
/dp/0321392353/ref=cm_taf_title_featured?ie=UTF8tag=tellafriend-20
-- 
Regards,
Tony Chester | Web Director
OnWired Next Generation Web Solutions
Local Number: 919.647.9403
Mobile: 919.434.6651
FAX: 630.214.0810
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.OnWired.net



On 4/8/07 8:18 PM, wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
wrote:

 From: Lee Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 15:28:53 +0100
 Subject: Client Side Development Process
 
 Hi all
 
 I wonder if anyone can offer some advice. I've recently landed a new
 development position within a very credible digital agency as part of
 their client side development team.  One of our things to do is
 develop a rock solid development process we work through for every
 project.  Traditionally we don't get our hand dirty until a client
 signs off what the design team have produced, however we are going to
 try to change this and get involved from an earlier point in the
 project.
 
 Would anyone like to offer any advice on setting up this process, and
 any advice on things to take into consideration for inclusion of the
 process. It'd be great to compile some documentation, and share it
 with the rest of the community...
 
 We're starting from a blank canvas so any advice appreciated.
 
 Kind Regards
 
 Lee Powell
 
 
 From: Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 08:42:17 +0800
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Client Side Development Process
 
 The best suggestion I can come up with is an ebook on grayscreen prototyping
 
 Hear are my thoughts etc about it:
 http://germworks.net/blog/2007/03/28/clients-vs-developer-wars-review/
 
 
 
 On 4/7/07, Lee Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Hi all
 
  I wonder if anyone can offer some advice. I've recently landed a new
  development position within a very credible digital agency as part of
  their client side development team.  One of our things to do is
  develop a rock solid development process we work through for every
  project.  Traditionally we don't get our hand dirty until a client
  signs off what the design team have produced, however we are going to
  try to change this and get involved from an earlier point in the
  project.
 
  Would anyone like to offer any advice on setting up this process, and
  any advice on things to take into consideration for inclusion of the
  process. It'd be great to compile some documentation, and share it
  with the rest of the community...
 
  We're starting from a blank canvas so any advice appreciated.
 
  Kind Regards
 
  Lee Powell
 
 
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Re: [WSG] Teaching CSS

2007-03-17 Thread Tony Crockford

Cole Kuryakin wrote:
Besides a book, are there any on-line, step-by-step “foundation to 
penthouse” curriculum course that anyone knows about and TRUSTS by 
experience?


Thanks to all for weighing through this windy post; and advance 
appreciation to all who care to comment.


I'm guessing, that as a designer, you're a visual learner, so may I 
suggest a different offering by Eric Meyer:


CSS Web Site Design - Hands On Training.
http://tinyurl.com/3yeqyb

60 step by step tutorials, and the accompanying CD has videos.

If you, or your designer are more book learners, then

Stylin with CSS
http://tinyurl.com/2nd2yf

is a good read with a designer slant.

after that there are dozens more good books on mastering CSS.






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Re: [WSG] target and accessibility

2007-03-10 Thread Tony Crockford

Designer wrote:


Ludicrous!  I see the point, obviously, but really!!!



not really, you're missing the obvious.

the links should be

buy book on cooking ISBNx
buy book on Shiatsu ISBNx
buy book on Vegetarian cooking ISBN

etc and the visual styling would be a graphic buy now (using some 
accessible image replacement technique)


and everyone is happy.

you the designer can have your visual button, and Google and all the 
other people that can't see your button get a meaningful list to choose 
from.


think about it...

;o)





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Re: [WSG] standards selling points

2007-03-08 Thread Tony Crockford

kevin mcmonagle wrote:


Hello,
This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input.
I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition.
What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a 
completely uniformed, unsavy client.


MACCAWS was ahead of its time and seems to have been forgotten, mores 
the pity, but it was set up specifically to help web designers in your 
position.


There's a whole Kit of information here:

http://www.maccaws.org/kit/
Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards | maccaws.org

hth



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[WSG] Communicate or Die

2005-07-06 Thread Tony Budak
Dear Labor and IT supporter,

I wanted to draw your attention a new online community called
Communicate or Die at http://www.communicateordie.com.

Our mission is to build a network of labor activists and technology
practitioners to discuss and develop solutions that allow unions
to realize the full potential of Internet technology.

Based on your membership in the Web Standards Group List serve,
I thought you might be interested, hence this e-mail.

We're just starting out. Please register and start commenting and
contributing if you're interested in becoming a member of the
Communicate or Die community.

In Solidarity,
Tony Budak
Communicate or Die
http://www.communicateordie.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
educate, agitate, and organize,
   Tony Budak at Community Labor News
 www.CLNews.org
   To subscribe, to the discussion group e-mail:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[WSG] IT Job Search Engine

2005-04-07 Thread Tony Budak
Zudora.com today launched an IT job search engine http://www.zudora.com that
combines over 20,000 new IT jobs daily from a wide range of employment web
sites across the USA. The new search engine provides users with an ability
to search for IT related jobs within specific States.
-- 
Cheers and Solidarity,
Tony B
http://CLNews.org
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[WSG] divs don't align

2005-03-29 Thread Tony Lim
I'm having trouble with http://www.outdoorinsights.com.au appears ok on 
IE on a pc but the left hand image is about 15px below on Safari and 
Camino. If I set the margin at -15px, it is ok on Safari  Camino but 
moves up on IE. Any clues?

Sampai berjumpa lagi
Tony Lim
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+61 2 44418668 ph
+61 2 44418898 fax
0411052746 mobile
P O Box 138
Huskisson
NSW 2540
Level 1 51 Owen St
Huskisson NSW
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[WSG] User Preference Script

2005-01-19 Thread Tony Aslett
Hi All,
I would love some feedback on a User Preference Script 
http://www.csscreator.com/generator/userpref.php

Reports of support from Mac browser and early IE would be especially 
useful to me at the moment.

Please provide responses Off List unless you think others would benefit 
from it in some way.

Tony Aslett
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.csscreator.com
http://www.appcreator.com
http://www.multiwebspace.com
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Re: [WSG] User Preference Script

2005-01-19 Thread Tony Aslett
Hi Kornel,
That looks very similar to something I saw not long ago at alistapart. 
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/bodyswitchers/
It's a fine solution, but you still need to pre-define each rule in a 
stylesheet and there will be browser that don't support the technique.

Tony.
Kornel Lesinski wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:34:58 +1000, Tony Aslett [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:

I would love some feedback on a User Preference Script  
http://www.csscreator.com/generator/userpref.php

Because Opera is not able to modify stylesheet rules,
I've been looking for a different solution, and I found one -
use multiple classes on body:
body class=smallfont verdana red
body.smallfont {font-size: small;}
body.verdana {font-family: verdana,sans-serif;}
body.red {color: red;}
body.red #something.else {color: red;}
This way you don't need to have lots of alternate stylesheets.
You could even put all such rules in a default stylesheet
and have classic style switcher additionally.
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Re: [WSG] Unwanted gaps between divs

2004-11-16 Thread Tony Crockford
At 05:14 on Tuesday, 16 Nov 2004, Nick Lo wrote:
By the way it can be solved by adding padding to it's container:
div#content { margin-left: 190px; margin-right: 200px; padding-top: 3pt;  
}

However I'm still not clear why.
I'd imagine this might explain:
http://www.complexspiral.com/publications/uncollapsing-margins/
hth
;o)
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding image cut-off through CSS?

2004-11-16 Thread Tony Crockford
At 03:52 on Tuesday, 16 Nov 2004, Chris Stratford wrote:
Wow, that is something I didn't realise existed!
That is great!
Thanks a lot Natalie!
- Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Natalie Buxton wrote:
Armit
You can force a page break before an image using css.
page-break-before: always;
Natalie
The downside of that is that *every* image will be at the head of a new  
page.

FWIW User agents are supposed to avoid splitting images across pages by  
default.
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding image cut-off through CSS?

2004-11-16 Thread Tony Crockford
At 11:30 on Tuesday, 16 Nov 2004, Natalie Buxton wrote:
It wont do that unless he puts the CSS in the img {}. You can do it
inline for a specific image, paragraph, whatever, or in a span
specifically for that purpose.
You dont have to specify it globally for all images.
sure, but then you have to know which ones will be split across the  
printed page and I got the impression that this wasn't always clear.

I've run aground on this many times with dynamic or data driven sites  
where content and image placement isn't known beforehand.


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Re: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

2004-10-05 Thread Tony Crockford
At 07:48 on Tuesday, 05 Oct 2004, Peter Ottery wrote:
Is there a best-practice way to build an item
display with multiple columns, but without using tables?

Name Price Quantity EditDelete
Apple $5.0025   [edit]  [delete]
Pear  $4.00 3   [edit]  [delete]
Banana   $12.00 5   [edit]  [delete]

1 vote for thats table data - use a table
/lurk
A small concern here...
The subject line and the presence of edit and delete columns suggest that  
this is in fact an interactive form, not a display of tabular data.

shouldn't we be pointing to all the good stuff on form styling and layout?
(eg http://www.aplus.co.yu/dots/109/)
or are we saying that forms with tabular data (and edit/delete buttons)  
can be in tables?

;o)
lurk

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Re: Re[2]: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

2004-10-05 Thread Tony Crockford
At 09:47 on Tuesday, 05 Oct 2004, Peter Goddard wrote:
Just because the table contains links to an edit page doesn't need for  
it to
be defined in a form. Surely the solution is to present the information  
in a
table and then style the 'edit' links with css, taking advantage of the
querystring.
Sure, that makes sense.
so we're saying it's okay to have a table with buttons in it, but we  
shouldn't have a form laid out as a table semantically speaking.

I'm not trolling, just looking for best practice guidance.
A list of items with edit delete buttons is okay as a table, but the edit  
page should be a form laid out without tables?

;o)
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Re: [WSG] Yahoo CSS'ing

2004-09-30 Thread Tony Crockford
I'm a bit confused, if I go to http://www.yahoo.com/ I'm still seeing the  
tabled version.

have they got some clever locale sniffing going on or what?
(I'm in the UK)
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Re: [WSG] Yahoo CSS'ing

2004-09-30 Thread Tony Crockford
At 09:34 on Thursday, 30 Sep 2004, Mugur Padurean wrote:
Tony Crockford wrote:
I'm a bit confused, if I go to http://www.yahoo.com/ I'm still seeing  
the  tabled version.

have they got some clever locale sniffing going on or what?
(I'm in the UK)
Here you go:
http://www.yahoo.com/?r=1096530966
but sadly not for me
seems to be very selective, some colleagues in a different office (1 on  
mac 1 on pc) get two different sites...


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Re: [WSG] CSS rules quirks database

2004-09-23 Thread Tony Aslett
Hi Paul,
I created a list of CSS properties and  browsers that support them 
http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/
It still needs a little work refining and adding content.
The idea was to get the community (members of the CSS Forum) behind it 
and have them add to the content.
Once logged in you can add / edit content and levels of browser support 
or make a comment.
Eventually I will get around to finishing it off, it's on my to do list.

Tony Aslett
http://www.csscreator.com/
Paul Novitski wrote:
Friends,
Drowning as I am in the unending flood of details about CSS -- what 
works and what doesn't on which browsers, and how to make a particular 
effect work cross-browser -- I've started conceiving a database to 
augment my maxed-out cerebrum.

Such a database could be queried for suggestions of how to accomplish 
a given presentational task, to advise about the cross-browser issues 
of particular elements, and to provide links to source material and 
demos on the net.  Ultimately it might be made into a validator to 
help folks pinpoint problems in their markup.  It would contain the 
kinds of details that are imparted daily on this glorious list, 
although I cannot imagine it ever rendering CSS listserves obsolete 
because of the endless fountain of human invention they convey.

Before I get too far into this project, I'm wondering:
- Is anyone else working on this kind of thing?
- Would you like to join a working group to discuss its feasibility 
and implementation?

Thanks,
Paul
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Re: [WSG] CSS rules quirks database

2004-09-23 Thread Tony Aslett
Paul Novitski wrote:
At 05:00 PM 9/23/2004, Tony Aslett wrote:
I created a list of CSS properties and  browsers that support them 
http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/
Excellent work, Tony.  Are you storing this in an SQL database?
Thanks Paul,
Yes it's stored in a MySQL database.
I'd like to see some other layers of information added to a database 
such as yours.  For instance, in addition to generalizing None, Part, 
or Full support of a property by various browsers, I'd also like to 
specify exactly how they differ, since all browsers that support a 
particular feature may not do so in the same way.

There are also quirks that don't quite come in the category of 
support but are critical nonetheless, such as the way IE requires 
there to be a background-color in order to render certain elements 
properly.
Comments were meant to take care of browser quirks,  so far there is 
only a couple of properties that have had comments added.
Hopefully over time more will be added.

Other quirks, such as IE's maverick box model, would be difficult to 
categorize in a listing of properties but could probably be referenced 
under such properties as margin  padding.

Again comments should be able to take care of that.
There are certain phenomena that occur when several properties and 
elements interact, and it would be great to be able to find out what 
the database knows about, say, a UL nested inside a DIV when its LIs 
have float: left.
Cross referencing properties would be possible but not on the database 
in it's current form. It really wasn't in my initial design to be able 
to cross reference properties and it would increase the complexity quite 
a lot.

Onward~
Paul 

Tony Aslett
http://www.csscreator.com/
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Re: [WSG] Anyone know of any good DOM tutorials?

2004-09-03 Thread Tony Aslett
Hi Seona,
Mozilla has really good DOM resources http://www.mozilla.org/docs/dom/
http://www.mozilla.org/docs/dom/domref/
This might be specifically what you want 
http://www.mozilla.org/docs/dom/domref/dom_el_ref4.html#1027595

Tony Aslett
http://www.csscreator.com/
Seona Bellamy wrote:
Hi guys,
Anyone know where I can find a good, easy to follow online tutorial on using
the DOM to control elements on a webpage? Specifically, I need to change the
class of an element to a different class.
Cheers,
Seona.
 

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Re: [WSG] Table-Free Design

2004-08-16 Thread Tony Aslett
Hi John,
You could also try out the css layout generator 
http://www.csscreator.com/version2/pagelayout.php

Tony
http://www.csscreator.com/
http://www.multiwebspace.com/
John Horner wrote:
If I want to find solid building blocks for a table-free layout, where 
should I start?

I mean, I know there are hundreds of websites, but the recommendations 
of this group ought to be particularly useful.

The thing is, I want a lot! In terms of the page, I'm simply looking for
 * banner
 * three-column flexible layout for the main content
 * footer
but I'm hoping that the page doesn't exhibit any strange behaviours 
when the page gets too small/content gets too bit, like DIVs 
overlapping each other or disappearing to the bottom of the page, and 
I'm even hoping that the layout can be content-first, nav-second in 
the source.

I was also hoping that the CSS can be relatively straightforward and 
not consist of 147 nested @import statements full of 
high-pass/low-pass filters and box model hack code etc.

Am I asking too much? I won't be trying to support Netscape 4, if that 
helps...

jh
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Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar

2004-07-14 Thread Tony Crockford
At 07:15 on Wednesday, 14 Jul 2004, Donna Jones wrote:
Hi everyone, I just signed on to this list today and just set up a new  
filter and corralled all the messages.

I would like to download this new toolbar for accessibility testing.  
Everyone's talking about it but I couldn't find a url - anyone?

I'm mainly here to lurk 'n learn, don't tend to be very chatty but just  
thought i'd say a few words and see if i could get that toolbar! :-)
this one?
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/#download
hth
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Re: [WSG] KHTML ??

2004-06-10 Thread Tony Crockford
At 14:10 on Thursday, 10 Jun 2004, Jad Madi wrote:
guys what is KHTML ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHTML
and you'll probably like this:
http://www.fuckinggoogleit.com
(I'll get my coat)
;o)
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Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

2004-06-06 Thread Tony Crockford
At 05:07 on Sunday, 06 Jun 2004, helmut wrote:
What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?

Topstyle Pro 3.1 is my choice.  Simply the best windows application for  
handcoding html / CSS  includes most language syntax coloring and mapping  
for local live previews via a local server.  Support is fantastic, Nick  
haunts the support bulletin boards and is building version 4 from user  
feedback and feature requests.

Site management makes a lot of stuff quick and easy, The clip library  
means I can store all my frequently used code, by project/project type. My  
only criticism is that the bradsoft web site doesn't make enough noise  
about all the features of the application - you have to download and play  
to discover them and there are many hidden greats.

(integrated accessibility checks, style sweeping, style export to given  
standard or browser (for sheet separation), replacement tokens for fully  
customised snippet insertion etc.)

It's great.  I love it.  I'll even split my affiliate commission with you:
Topstyle Pro 3.10
http://www.regnow.com/softsell/nph-softsell.cgi?item=6598-4affiliate=16516
Upgrade:
http://www.regnow.com/softsell/nph-softsell.cgi?item=6598-5affiliate=16516
coupon code:
BOLD-CCN4
;o)
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Re: [WSG] Which *free* editors do you guys recommend?

2004-06-06 Thread Tony Crockford
At 08:35 on Sunday, 06 Jun 2004, Sean M. Hall AKA Dante wrote:
Self explanatory, see subject.
As I said before: syntax highlighting and no automatic insertion.
http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html
small footprint.
code folding
loads of syntax highlighting
hth
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Re: [WSG] CSS vs tables

2004-05-28 Thread tony
Here are some thoughts on Tables and tableless design, I tried to make it brief
:).

Tables and divs (CSS needs some structure) have different properties and so
react differently to different situations.
A printed page is very different to a page viewed on the web via a web enabled
device. Once a page is printed that's it, no different resolution or device to
worry about.
Tables give us a more rigid layout closer to print, which is what most web
designs were (and possibly still are) based on.
As the web evolves we need to develop more flexible pages that can be viewed in
numerous devices at different resolutions etc.
This is where divs and CSS have a big advantage over table designs.
Divs and CSS and be used to develop fluid designs.
The problem is that most people still have hangups over printed media and fixed
layouts.
They want this column next to that one all the time and for it to look the same
on every device.
There's nothing wrong with a column droping to the next line at small window
sizes. Or that the page looks different in browser A when compared with
browser B. It's only us web developers that use multiple browsers to view a
site anyway. So if A looks slightly different from B as long as they look
good and the content is accessible we should have nothing to worry about.

Web Development is evolving and will continue to evolve as will the minds and
ideas of the developers.
There is no perfect way to build a web site we can only do our best with the
knowledge of the time.
In 5 years people will say that some of the techniques we think are great today
are inaccessible for the next generation of devices.

We still have a long way to go in improving designs but I think we are heading
in the right direction.

Tony
http://www.csscreator.com/







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Re: [WSG] Help with Float

2004-05-19 Thread tony
Quoting Sean Sullivan-Daley [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 I am trying to float 3 columns next to each other.
 This appearas to be OK in IE6 but is broken in FireFox.
 The columns break out of the container in FireFox.

There's now a new way to clear float containers without the need to use an extra
clearing element.
http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/containedfloat.php

Tony
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Re: [WSG] CSS support table?

2004-05-17 Thread tony
Hi Zulema,
I developing a list of CSS properties that contains a description and  browser
support.
It is still very much under construction, more content needed.

http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/

Hope that helps.

Quoting !!blue [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Hi all,

 Where can I find some sort of table that lists the CSS attributes and the
 browsers that support each attribute?

 I've found a few here and there, for example:
 -- www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/browser_support/basic_concepts.html
 or
 -- www.w3schools.com/css/css_reference.asp

 are there any others I should be looking at?

 thanks,
 Zulema

 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
 Z u l e m a  O r t i z
 w e b  d e s i g n e r
 email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 website : http://zoblue.com/
 weblog : http://blog.zoblue.com/
 · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
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RE: [WSG] csscreator.com multimenu

2004-05-10 Thread tony
I have answered this on the CSS Forum.
Just to add a little more, vertical-align works on the inline box or line-height
 and positions the text within that line, not within the container as a whole.

If bottom worked correctly that would have been a good option, but for your
example just using margin-top will do what you need.

Tony
http://www.csscreator.com
http://www.appcreator.com



Quoting theGrafixGuy [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Yes, I tried that initially and no go - hence the stupid question that is
 turning out to not be so stupid after all :-)

 Right now I got it faked using a few br / but I don't wanna do that as it
 just feel to go against the clean code I am trying to create here.


 Brian Grimmer

 theGrafixGuy
 http://www.thegrafixguy.com
 503-887-4943
 925-226-4085 (fax)




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Re: [WSG] csscreator.com multimenu

2004-05-09 Thread tony
Hi All,
My first post to this list.

A couple of points regarding CSSCreator MultiMenu which may have been
overlooked.
Firstly JavaScript is only needed by IE for that menu, any of the other
supported browsers will function fine without it.

I like the menu because of the very small JavaScript file and would be
interested to see any other similar menus that function without JavaScript.

If IE with javascript disabled is a problem it would be fairly easy to give it
an open bulleted list or formated however you want.
The steps would be something along these lines:
Firstly load the CSS as normal for all browsers.
Then use the Holly Hack or something similar to give IE only a menu that is open
and available without JavaScript.
Lastly use JavaScript for IE with JavaScript to close up the menu and prepare it
for action.

This would of course complicate the menu and moves away from the simple menu
that it is now.

It is wise to provide an alternative way of navigating a site when using any
menu.

Hope that helps.

Tony.

http://www.csscreator.com
http://www.appcreator.com



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