RE: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
I would also like to point out that Facebook have a different business model from the majority of web sites - they have little to loose by excluding IE6 - they are not a shop, they are not trying to break into an existing market, they have a greater bias towards the home user than the corporate, etc etc. I don't think very many other sites fit that profile, certainly nothing that I am in involved with does. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Sent: 02 September 2008 22:34 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6 This may be acceptable for facebook if thier statistics indicate a low amount of IE6 users, however I think this is hardly acceptable for a majority of my audience, which includes many proffesionals who still run IE6 so they can use company intranets, etc. I would love nothing more than to not have to worry about IE6 however I think that day will be a very long day coming. Regards, Anthony. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
I like the IE6Blocker from Chris Coyier, check it out at http://css-tricks.com/ie-6-blocker-script/ I made a spanish translation of IE6Blocker, download it from http://espadas.com.mx/2008/09/01/bloqueando-internet-explorer-6/ Gregorio Espadas http://espadas.com.mx On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I came upon this - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/08/27/facebook-doesnt-really-support-ie6 If Facebook (or the 'new' Facebook look) is doing this, maybe it will really start to move IE6 out the door ... One can only hope anyway!! +++ Susie Gardner-Brown blog: http://susiegb/blogspot.com web: http://www.greendoorwebsites.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
Gregorio Espadas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like the IE6Blocker from Chris Coyier, check it out at http://css-tricks.com/ie-6-blocker-script/ I made a spanish translation of IE6Blocker, download it from http://espadas.com.mx/2008/09/01/bloqueando-internet-explorer-6/ Gregorio Espadas http://espadas.com.mx On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I came upon this - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/08/27/facebook-doesnt-really-support-ie6 If Facebook (or the 'new' Facebook look) is doing this, maybe it will really start to move IE6 out the door ... One can only hope anyway!! +++ Susie Gardner-Brown blog: http://susiegb/blogspot.com web: http://www.greendoorwebsites.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** IMO this is very bad idea. Currently 24% of my visitors use MSIE 6.x Browsers. and that represents thousands of users. I am certainly not going to notify them that they cannot access my pages unless they change their Browser of choice. More and and more people this days configure their Browsers (or their usage parameters) to suit their viewing preferences -- I think a lot of visitors will abandon their visits if those preferences are interfered with. James -- Interoperable Web Authoring: http://jp29.org/ Practical Italic Handwriting: http://jp29.org/itdr.htm Roman Coins of the London Mint: http://jp29.org/plndr.htm Accessible to People with Disabilities *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
IMHO it seems to me to be a violation of web standards to tell the user what browser to use. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Gregorio Espadas wrote: I like the IE6Blocker from Chris Coyier, check it out at http://css-tricks.com/ie-6-blocker-script/ I made a spanish translation of IE6Blocker, download it from http://espadas.com.mx/2008/09/01/bloqueando-internet-explorer-6/ Gregorio Espadas http://espadas.com.mx On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I came upon this - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/08/27/facebook-doesnt-really-support-ie6 If Facebook (or the 'new' Facebook look) is doing this, maybe it will really start to move IE6 out the door ... One can only hope anyway!! +++ Susie Gardner-Brown blog: http://susiegb/blogspot.com web: http://www.greendoorwebsites.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
2008/9/2 Gregorio Espadas [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I like the IE6Blocker from Chris Coyier, check it out at http://css-tricks.com/ie-6-blocker-script/ In my opinion this is worst practice. First priority should be for a website to make the content available to as many people as possible. Browser discrimination is at least as bad as accessibility and usability violations. At least because the latter may be caused by lack of knowedge of some guidelines, whereas not being able to deliver a passable page to older browsers is sheer laziness or dumb imbecility. Apart from my rejection on principle, this method of user agent sniffing via javascript is prone to fail in many circumstances. The best way to target IE6 (or below) would be to use conditional comments. ONLY if a web application absolutely relies on certain javascript methods not available in old browsers may a user be warned about difficulties in using this application. In these cases, detection should be done by testing said methods, not by user agent sniffing. Cheers, jens -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
I agree that it's not a good idea to flat out block someone from browsing your website with a certain browser. That reminds me of way back when during the IE/Netscape wars where half the pages you would go to had a block for one or the other. I think a better idea if you want to drop IE6 support is to simply make your website how your would for the other browsers. Than, you could check it in IE6 and fix any major glitches, but don't worry about the minor details (or not, if you really wanted to flat out drop it). Then, use scripting to determine the browser, and if it is IE6 or lower, put a small banner at the top of your page saying You should upgrade your browser, or try out one of the Internet Explorer alternatives. This site may not function entirely correct with older versions of IE. and provide alternative links. This is the method I will shortly be adopting and I think it's good for pushing IE6 out the door, without slamming that door on potential visitors. Michael Horowitz wrote: IMHO it seems to me to be a violation of web standards to tell the user what browser to use. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Gregorio Espadas wrote: I like the IE6Blocker from Chris Coyier, check it out at http://css-tricks.com/ie-6-blocker-script/ I made a spanish translation of IE6Blocker, download it from http://espadas.com.mx/2008/09/01/bloqueando-internet-explorer-6/ Gregorio Espadas http://espadas.com.mx On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I came upon this - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/08/27/facebook-doesnt-really-support-ie6 If Facebook (or the 'new' Facebook look) is doing this, maybe it will really start to move IE6 out the door ... One can only hope anyway!! +++ Susie Gardner-Brown blog: http://susiegb/blogspot.com web: http://www.greendoorwebsites.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net http://www.numberoverflow.com http://www.htmlblox.com Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
Also Spracht Jens Brueckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] In my opinion this is worst practice. First priority should be for a website to make the content available to as many people as possible. Browser discrimination is at least as bad as accessibility and usability violations. I remember back when the first IE releases came out and Netscape was the dominant browser that many sites intentionally shut out IE users and put up a Netscape Only splash screen. There were a number of sites that I wanted to visit that had this provision... and I was forced to buy Netscape. Granted... that isn't the case now with just about every available browser being free. However, the spirit is the same and only hurts innocent users. -- The generation that used acid to escape reality is now taking antacid to deal with reality. http://blog.dwacon.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Jens Brueckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/9/2 Gregorio Espadas [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I like the IE6Blocker from Chris Coyier, check it out at http://css-tricks.com/ie-6-blocker-script/ ONLY if a web application absolutely relies on certain javascript methods not available in old browsers may a user be warned about difficulties in using this application. In these cases, detection should be done by testing said methods, not by user agent sniffing. Leave it to WSG to assume that Facebook.com is just another website. Log into Facebook and profile your session with Firebug or a similar Javascript tool. What you will soon find is that Facebook is one of the most complex web applications out there today. It has a huge number of AJAX animation events throughout the many sections, as well as a live chat feature similar to the one in Gmail. Just to give you an example, Facebook has a continuously running presence monitor that sends information via AJAX to the backend even as the logged-in user is idle, to track and identify how users interact with the site. One of the uses for this is to tell other users, with certainty, if you are currently online. Facebook has had a warning message on their homepage for a long time; I remember seeing it at the beginning of this year. It's a way of letting users know that some features of the site are bound to be hindered because IE 6 is so outdated. I think this message went up around the time that Facebook chat was released (April 2008), this is why: http://www.theangryhedgehog.com/2008/04/facebook-chat-and-ie-6.html Currently, Facebook has a redesign of their site which is opt-in until the testing period is over, which does not work with IE 6. It is well understood that the new version features a lot more Javascript AJAX than the current design, and therefore, will take a while to make compatible with IE 6, if at all. Facebook has not finished the opt-in, testing period for their new design, so it is not correct to say that they are downgrading support for IE 6. We can only say that if those users are still blocked when the new design is actually released to all users (which is scheduled to happen soon). We might not agree with the way Facebook sniffs the user's browser, but the point I am trying to make is that Facebook is far more a web app than many people on this list may have ever known, and it certainly does have different requirements than our blogs and public-facing brochure sites. Also, since Facebook hasn't actually finished their latest redesign, there is still a chance that they will support IE 6 in the end; but I doubt it. Last link: http://siteanalytics.compete.com/google.com+myspace.com+facebook.com/?metric=uv -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
Yet another thing that is Facebook specific that I just thought about. I may be overstating this, since I have no actual statistics to back it up, but I'd wager that a very large part of Facebook's population is from the more tech-savvy generations, so their usage statistics of IE6 may be far lower than your average website. Additionally, since a large portion of there population is (was?) college students who generally reside on-campus, they are likely to have more up-to-date systems because nearly all colleges require that you stay current with Windows updates to access their network (meaning use the internet, not necessarily access an intranet), so a lot of the users already have IE6 or greater. Not saying I completely agree with this approach, but at the same time it is highly unreasonable for a web system like Facebook to be able to individually provide fall backs and fail-safes for IE6. In addition, I think it is actually about time that we as web developers began pushing for users to upgrade. Simple non-invasive messages on the top of our website for those that are using outdated browsers are simple to implement, easily ignored by those that want to, and are helpful for those that aren't as tech-savvy. Many people that are using IE6 don't realize they are using an outdated version. I'd wager to bet that 99% of those still using IE6 couldn't tell you the browser version they are using because they aren't acclimated enough to know that there are different versions of Internet Explorer. Most of these users are those stereotypical users that think Internet Explorer = The Internet. (The other 1% are just crazy) Christian Montoya wrote: On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Jens Brueckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/9/2 Gregorio Espadas [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I like the IE6Blocker from Chris Coyier, check it out at http://css-tricks.com/ie-6-blocker-script/ ONLY if a web application absolutely relies on certain javascript methods not available in old browsers may a user be warned about difficulties in using this application. In these cases, detection should be done by testing said methods, not by user agent sniffing. Leave it to WSG to assume that Facebook.com is just another website. Log into Facebook and profile your session with Firebug or a similar Javascript tool. What you will soon find is that Facebook is one of the most complex web applications out there today. It has a huge number of AJAX animation events throughout the many sections, as well as a live chat feature similar to the one in Gmail. Just to give you an example, Facebook has a continuously running presence monitor that sends information via AJAX to the backend even as the logged-in user is idle, to track and identify how users interact with the site. One of the uses for this is to tell other users, with certainty, if you are currently online. Facebook has had a warning message on their homepage for a long time; I remember seeing it at the beginning of this year. It's a way of letting users know that some features of the site are bound to be hindered because IE 6 is so outdated. I think this message went up around the time that Facebook chat was released (April 2008), this is why: http://www.theangryhedgehog.com/2008/04/facebook-chat-and-ie-6.html Currently, Facebook has a redesign of their site which is opt-in until the testing period is over, which does not work with IE 6. It is well understood that the new version features a lot more Javascript AJAX than the current design, and therefore, will take a while to make compatible with IE 6, if at all. Facebook has not finished the opt-in, testing period for their new design, so it is not correct to say that they are downgrading support for IE 6. We can only say that if those users are still blocked when the new design is actually released to all users (which is scheduled to happen soon). We might not agree with the way Facebook sniffs the user's browser, but the point I am trying to make is that Facebook is far more a web app than many people on this list may have ever known, and it certainly does have different requirements than our blogs and public-facing brochure sites. Also, since Facebook hasn't actually finished their latest redesign, there is still a chance that they will support IE 6 in the end; but I doubt it. Last link: http://siteanalytics.compete.com/google.com+myspace.com+facebook.com/?metric=uv -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net http://www.numberoverflow.com http://www.htmlblox.com Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
Christian Snodgrass wrote: Yet another thing that is Facebook specific that I just thought about. I may be overstating this, since I have no actual statistics to back it up, but I'd wager that a very large part of Facebook's population is from the more tech-savvy generations, so their usage statistics of IE6 may be far lower than your average website. Additionally, since a large portion of there population is (was?) college students who generally reside on-campus, they are likely to have more up-to-date systems because nearly all colleges require that you stay current with Windows updates to access their network (meaning use the internet, not necessarily access an intranet), so a lot of the users already have IE6 or greater. Yup, Most schools around here don't even allow win2k on their network anymore. xp and vista only. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
Most schools around here don't even allow win2k on their network anymore. An interesting discussion. Agree that Facebook is an application and not a website - and an absolutely huge and complex one. From what I can see, Facebook is doing the right thing... offering full support for latest browsers and some support (access to content and key functions) for older browsers. - along with information about why upgrades and where to upgrade. Of more concern is the discussion about simply blocking versions of a browser (which is nor what Facebook is doing from what I can tell). This is not a good idea! Ideally, we should aim to provide support to as many devices as we can - whether we are building an application or a website. For many reasons: 1. business - can we afford to cut off 10%, 17%, 25% of our audience? While this number will continue to drop - the number is still high. 2. moral/accessibility - many people who use assistive devices such as JAWS run on IE6 still due to inability, lack of knowledge of how to upgrade etc. Do we really want to cut these people off entirely? The rules are completely different for intranets and closed environments, but on the web (site or app) we should aim to support everyone - and where needed, provide a lesser but acceptable experience. 2cents Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
This may be acceptable for facebook if thier statistics indicate a low amount of IE6 users, however I think this is hardly acceptable for a majority of my audience, which includes many proffesionals who still run IE6 so they can use company intranets, etc. I would love nothing more than to not have to worry about IE6 however I think that day will be a very long day coming. Regards, Anthony. Sent from my iPhone! On 03/09/2008, at 7:05 AM, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most schools around here don't even allow win2k on their network anymore. An interesting discussion. Agree that Facebook is an application and not a website - and an absolutely huge and complex one. From what I can see, Facebook is doing the right thing... offering full support for latest browsers and some support (access to content and key functions) for older browsers. - along with information about why upgrades and where to upgrade. Of more concern is the discussion about simply blocking versions of a browser (which is nor what Facebook is doing from what I can tell). This is not a good idea! Ideally, we should aim to provide support to as many devices as we can - whether we are building an application or a website. For many reasons: 1. business - can we afford to cut off 10%, 17%, 25% of our audience? While this number will continue to drop - the number is still high. 2. moral/accessibility - many people who use assistive devices such as JAWS run on IE6 still due to inability, lack of knowledge of how to upgrade etc. Do we really want to cut these people off entirely? The rules are completely different for intranets and closed environments, but on the web (site or app) we should aim to support everyone - and where needed, provide a lesser but acceptable experience. 2cents Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
Quoting russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Most schools around here don't even allow win2k on their network anymore. An interesting discussion. Agree that Facebook is an application and not a website - and an absolutely huge and complex one. From what I can see, Facebook is doing the right thing... offering full support for latest browsers and some support (access to content and key functions) for older browsers. - along with information about why upgrades and where to upgrade. Of more concern is the discussion about simply blocking versions of a browser (which is nor what Facebook is doing from what I can tell). This is not a good idea! Ideally, we should aim to provide support to as many devices as we can - whether we are building an application or a website. For many reasons: 1. business - can we afford to cut off 10%, 17%, 25% of our audience? While this number will continue to drop - the number is still high. 2. moral/accessibility - many people who use assistive devices such as JAWS run on IE6 still due to inability, lack of knowledge of how to upgrade etc. Do we really want to cut these people off entirely? The rules are completely different for intranets and closed environments, but on the web (site or app) we should aim to support everyone - and where needed, provide a lesser but acceptable experience. I agree 100% Russ. As a browser vendor we gain to benefit from IE6 being blocked (well except many of these scripts will also block Opera 9), as it will push users to download new browsers (if your site is important enough), but I, and our company as a whole are wholesale against such browser sniffing practices to block browsers, even if they are capable to render the page. If old browsers are causing too much headache during development time, then I'd recommend the YUI approach of giving th content but not the advanced behaviours or styles. That way the content is still accessible to your (potential) users/customers. 2cents Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
I came upon this - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2008/08/27/facebook-doesnt-really-support-ie6 If Facebook (or the new¹ Facebook look) is doing this, maybe it will really start to move IE6 out the door ... One can only hope anyway!! +++ Susie Gardner-Brown blog: http://susiegb/blogspot.com web: http://www.greendoorwebsites.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
