Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
Dean Matthews wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 3:44 PM, dwain wrote: where is it and is it incorporated into firefox yet? dwain On 5/12/08, Dean Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 12, 2008, at 11:13 PM, dwain wrote: and if you are wanting valid css then css3 will throw up errors in the w3c css validator. Not if you use the CSS level 3 validator ;) It's at: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/#validate_by_uri+with_options Under profile, select CSS 3 Don't know about Firefox. I assume we're talking about the Web Developer Tool bar extension for Firefox? [1] If so, it's quite customisable and you can change the validation level to CSS3 1) Go to the options tab on the developer tool bar 2) From the drop down menu select Options 3) From the menu on the left select Tools 4) You will then see a list of URLs, under Application/URL, click the one that says: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css21warning=0uri= 5) Then click the Edit button, you can then make changes to the URL: To have CSS3 included in the validation, change: css21 to css3 I'd also recommend changing: warning=0 to warning=1 , this tells the CSS Validator to also show you warnings. So in the end the URL should look something like this: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css3warning=1uri= Also, while you have the web developer tool bar options open: from the left select Validation you'll then see Validate Local CSS, under that, choose the CSS3 option Click OK and you're done. Now you can validate pages that contain CSS3 just by going to the developer tool bar and selecting Tools = Validate CSS. [1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/60 Cheers, Dean Edridge *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
On 13 May 2008, at 01:36, Nikita The Spider The Spider wrote: One big impediment to using XHTML 1.1 is that it must be sent with the application/xhtml+xml media type which makes IE6 choke. ... and IE7 and IE8. Adding support for XHTML hasn't been a priority for Microsoft (presumably because more people are going to benefit from better CSS support than from XHTML support). -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
If you do content negotiation to send html/text and XHTML 1.0 to IE and application/xhtml+xml XHTML to anyone else then you're effectivly using XHTML 1.0 html/text as you'd never be able to make use of the modular XML nature of XHTML 1.1. - Original Message - From: Nikita The Spider The Spider [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 2:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now? On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Simon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 Of the doctypes that my validator Nikita saw in one sample period, just slightly over 2% were XHTML 1.1. It's worth noting that most, if not all, were sent with the wrong media type. http://NikitaTheSpider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/#doctypes and does it provide any benefits? Well, compared to what? HTML 4.01 Strict, XHTML 1.0 Transitional or XHTML 1.0 Strict? Is there a reason why not many sites adopt this Doctype and is there any point using right now if your site is 1.0 Strict? One big impediment to using XHTML 1.1 is that it must be sent with the application/xhtml+xml media type which makes IE6 choke. That implies that the server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content unless you're willing to refuse IE users. Does this sound appealing yet? Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly, even ignoring the cost of generating both two versions of one's content. Given the extra work required to support XHTML 1.1, there would have to be some pretty darn compelling reasons to use it, and those reasons just aren't there for most people. There's quite enough people who question the use of XHTML 1.0 over HTML (I'm one of them), let alone XHTML 1.1. About XHTML and media types: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/#summary HTH -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
You can still do that with XHTML 1.0 sent as html/text. I've done that several times when I've made desktop gadgets to extract data from my site. The parsers doesn't care if the page is sent as html/text instead of xml/text. I don't see any point of using XHTML 1.1 unless you use it's modular nature. - Original Message - From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now? HTH wrote: ...server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content Assuming your are not writing static pages, you only need to generate one copy of content in XHTML 1.1 format and then serve it as any version of HTML as you like. HTH wrote: Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly At most, maybe 10 lines of code. Please see: http://xhtml.com/en/content-negotiation/ Simon wrote: Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 and does it provide any benefits? The benefits are on the content production side. If you author your content in XHTML, you can parse it with an off-the-shelf XML parser and make modifications to your content en-masse. This gives you control over your content. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com XStandard XHTML (Strict or 1.1) WYSIWYG Editor Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-12 8:36 PM On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Simon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 Of the doctypes that my validator Nikita saw in one sample period, just slightly over 2% were XHTML 1.1. It's worth noting that most, if not all, were sent with the wrong media type. http://NikitaTheSpider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/#doctypes and does it provide any benefits? Well, compared to what? HTML 4.01 Strict, XHTML 1.0 Transitional or XHTML 1.0 Strict? Is there a reason why not many sites adopt this Doctype and is there any point using right now if your site is 1.0 Strict? One big impediment to using XHTML 1.1 is that it must be sent with the application/xhtml+xml media type which makes IE6 choke. That implies that the server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content unless you're willing to refuse IE users. Does this sound appealing yet? Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly, even ignoring the cost of generating both two versions of one's content. Given the extra work required to support XHTML 1.1, there would have to be some pretty darn compelling reasons to use it, and those reasons just aren't there for most people. There's quite enough people who question the use of XHTML 1.0 over HTML (I'm one of them), let alone XHTML 1.1. About XHTML and media types: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/#summary HTH *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:57 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HTH wrote: ...server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content Assuming your are not writing static pages, you only need to generate one copy of content in XHTML 1.1 format and then serve it as any version of HTML as you like. I'm not sure what you mean -- I understand the XHTML 1.1 part, but what do you mean then by serve it as any version of HTML? Are you talking about putting an HTML doctype on XHTML 1.1-formatted code, or serving XHTML 1.1 with the text/html media type, or something else? HTH wrote: Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly At most, maybe 10 lines of code. Please see: http://xhtml.com/en/content-negotiation/ My point exactly -- that code is not correct. It produces the wrong result when presented with an Accept header of */* which is valid (see http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1) and indicates that the client can accept application/xhtml+xml. The code is also wrong in that the Accept header can contain preference indicators (q=...). It's valid for a client to indicate that it accept both text/html and application/xhtml+xml but prefers the former. A straightforward substring search won't get the job done correctly. It's true that these are unusual cases and the consequences of getting it wrong are minor (text/html sent instead of application/xhtml+xml). But my point was that it is easy to make mistakes, even if you're getting it right most of the time. There was a recent discussion (pretty vocal, if I remember correctly) on the W3 Validator list about the subject of content negotiation involving people with a deeper understanding and appreciation of the standards than me. You might find it interesting reading. Cheers -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
where is it and is it incorporated into firefox yet? dwain On 5/12/08, Dean Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 12, 2008, at 11:13 PM, dwain wrote: and if you are wanting valid css then css3 will throw up errors in the w3c css validator. Not if you use the CSS level 3 validator ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:17 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Nikita, Are you talking about putting an HTML doctype on XHTML 1.1-formatted code Yes, but normally you would put XHTML 1.1 markup into an template written for a different DOCTYPE as shown in this screen shot: http://xstandard.com/94E7EECB-E7CF-4122-A6AF-8F817AA53C78/html-layout-xhtml-content.gif Hi Vlad, OK, I see what you're trying to do, but the example you provided isn't valid XHTML. If it were, the META tag would have to end in a / and then it wouldn't be valid HTML anymore. In other words, it's a good example of why you can't just change the doctype in order to switch between HTML and XHTML. (In addition, the tags would have to be lowercase if it were XHTML, but that's easy to remedy and also works in HTML.) The (X)HTML in the example and content negotiation code you've suggested is probably adequate (from a practical standpoint) for many Webmasters, but it isn't standards compliant. Given the name of this list, that seems pretty significant. Cheers Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-13 8:43 AM On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:57 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HTH wrote: ...server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content Assuming your are not writing static pages, you only need to generate one copy of content in XHTML 1.1 format and then serve it as any version of HTML as you like. I'm not sure what you mean -- I understand the XHTML 1.1 part, but what do you mean then by serve it as any version of HTML? Are you talking about putting an HTML doctype on XHTML 1.1-formatted code, or serving XHTML 1.1 with the text/html media type, or something else? HTH wrote: Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly At most, maybe 10 lines of code. Please see: http://xhtml.com/en/content-negotiation/ My point exactly -- that code is not correct. It produces the wrong result when presented with an Accept header of */* which is valid (see http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1) and indicates that the client can accept application/xhtml+xml. The code is also wrong in that the Accept header can contain preference indicators (q=...). It's valid for a client to indicate that it accept both text/html and application/xhtml+xml but prefers the former. A straightforward substring search won't get the job done correctly. It's true that these are unusual cases and the consequences of getting it wrong are minor (text/html sent instead of application/xhtml+xml). But my point was that it is easy to make mistakes, even if you're getting it right most of the time. There was a recent discussion (pretty vocal, if I remember correctly) on the W3 Validator list about the subject of content negotiation involving people with a deeper understanding and appreciation of the standards than me. You might find it interesting reading. Cheers -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
On May 13, 2008, at 3:44 PM, dwain wrote: where is it and is it incorporated into firefox yet? dwain On 5/12/08, Dean Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 12, 2008, at 11:13 PM, dwain wrote: and if you are wanting valid css then css3 will throw up errors in the w3c css validator. Not if you use the CSS level 3 validator ;) It's at: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/#validate_by_uri+with_options Under profile, select CSS 3 Don't know about Firefox. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
thanks for the info. cheers, dwain On 5/13/08, Dean Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 3:44 PM, dwain wrote: where is it and is it incorporated into firefox yet? dwain On 5/12/08, Dean Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 12, 2008, at 11:13 PM, dwain wrote: and if you are wanting valid css then css3 will throw up errors in the w3c css validator. Not if you use the CSS level 3 validator ;) It's at: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/#validate_by_uri+with_options Under profile, select CSS 3 Don't know about Firefox. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
From time to time over the past several years I have served web pages as XHTML 1.0 with content (MIME) type text/html to IE Browsers and with content (MIME) type application/xhtml+xml to Browsers that recognize that content type -- via Content Negotiation. My current Home Page -- http://jp29.org/ -- is served in this manner. I compose the great majority of my pages using HTML 4.01 Markup (a few using ISO-HTML) and they are naturally served as text/html. I actually started using Content Negotiation for XHTML documents as an experiment to see how the concept worked in practice. I currently also employ Content Negotiation for my XHTML+RDFa test page -- http://jp29.org/rdfaprimerx.php -- there is no Appendix C provision (ala XHTML 1.0) for XHTML+RDFa -- if such documents are served as text/html the W3C Validator adds the following generic note to the successful validation report (quote): Warning Conflict between Mime Type and Document Type The document is being served with the text/html Mime Type which is not a registered media type for the XHTML + RDFa Document Type. The recommended media type for this document is: application/xhtml+xml . The W3C is currently serving some of their XHTML+RDFa documents as Content-Type text/html. James [ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
Nikita wrote: the example you provided isn't valid XHTML. I think you may have misunderstood. The example in this screen shot: http://xstandard.com/94E7EECB-E7CF-4122-A6AF-8F817AA53C78/html-layout-xhtml-content.gif .. shows how to embed XHTML 1.1 content into an HTML 4.01 Transitional page layout. So the result should be valid HTML 4.01 Transitional. Nikita wrote: the META tag would have to end in a / and then it wouldn't be valid HTML anymore. Sure it would. It may not be in the spec but it's a de facto standard. Even the W3C validator will accept it as valid HTML. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-13 7:49 PM On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:17 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Nikita, Are you talking about putting an HTML doctype on XHTML 1.1-formatted code Yes, but normally you would put XHTML 1.1 markup into an template written for a different DOCTYPE as shown in this screen shot: http://xstandard.com/94E7EECB-E7CF-4122-A6AF-8F817AA53C78/html-layout-xhtml-content.gif Hi Vlad, OK, I see what you're trying to do, but the example you provided isn't valid XHTML. If it were, the META tag would have to end in a / and then it wouldn't be valid HTML anymore. In other words, it's a good example of why you can't just change the doctype in order to switch between HTML and XHTML. (In addition, the tags would have to be lowercase if it were XHTML, but that's easy to remedy and also works in HTML.) The (X)HTML in the example and content negotiation code you've suggested is probably adequate (from a practical standpoint) for many Webmasters, but it isn't standards compliant. Given the name of this list, that seems pretty significant. Cheers Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-13 8:43 AM On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:57 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HTH wrote: ...server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content Assuming your are not writing static pages, you only need to generate one copy of content in XHTML 1.1 format and then serve it as any version of HTML as you like. I'm not sure what you mean -- I understand the XHTML 1.1 part, but what do you mean then by serve it as any version of HTML? Are you talking about putting an HTML doctype on XHTML 1.1-formatted code, or serving XHTML 1.1 with the text/html media type, or something else? HTH wrote: Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly At most, maybe 10 lines of code. Please see: http://xhtml.com/en/content-negotiation/ My point exactly -- that code is not correct. It produces the wrong result when presented with an Accept header of */* which is valid (see http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1) and indicates that the client can accept application/xhtml+xml. The code is also wrong in that the Accept header can contain preference indicators (q=...). It's valid for a client to indicate that it accept both text/html and application/xhtml+xml but prefers the former. A straightforward substring search won't get the job done correctly. It's true that these are unusual cases and the consequences of getting it wrong are minor (text/html sent instead of application/xhtml+xml). But my point was that it is easy to make mistakes, even if you're getting it right most of the time. There was a recent discussion (pretty vocal, if I remember correctly) on the W3 Validator list about the subject of content negotiation involving people with a deeper understanding and appreciation of the standards than me. You might find it interesting reading. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 10:02 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nikita wrote: the META tag would have to end in a / and then it wouldn't be valid HTML anymore. Sure it would. It may not be in the spec but it's a de facto standard. Even the W3C validator will accept it as valid HTML. I encourage you to try that with the W3C validator. You will not get the result you expect. Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-13 7:49 PM On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:17 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Nikita, Are you talking about putting an HTML doctype on XHTML 1.1-formatted code Yes, but normally you would put XHTML 1.1 markup into an template written for a different DOCTYPE as shown in this screen shot: http://xstandard.com/94E7EECB-E7CF-4122-A6AF-8F817AA53C78/html-layout-xhtml-content.gif Hi Vlad, OK, I see what you're trying to do, but the example you provided isn't valid XHTML. If it were, the META tag would have to end in a / and then it wouldn't be valid HTML anymore. In other words, it's a good example of why you can't just change the doctype in order to switch between HTML and XHTML. (In addition, the tags would have to be lowercase if it were XHTML, but that's easy to remedy and also works in HTML.) The (X)HTML in the example and content negotiation code you've suggested is probably adequate (from a practical standpoint) for many Webmasters, but it isn't standards compliant. Given the name of this list, that seems pretty significant. Cheers Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-13 8:43 AM On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:57 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HTH wrote: ...server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content Assuming your are not writing static pages, you only need to generate one copy of content in XHTML 1.1 format and then serve it as any version of HTML as you like. I'm not sure what you mean -- I understand the XHTML 1.1 part, but what do you mean then by serve it as any version of HTML? Are you talking about putting an HTML doctype on XHTML 1.1-formatted code, or serving XHTML 1.1 with the text/html media type, or something else? HTH wrote: Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly At most, maybe 10 lines of code. Please see: http://xhtml.com/en/content-negotiation/ My point exactly -- that code is not correct. It produces the wrong result when presented with an Accept header of */* which is valid (see http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1) and indicates that the client can accept application/xhtml+xml. The code is also wrong in that the Accept header can contain preference indicators (q=...). It's valid for a client to indicate that it accept both text/html and application/xhtml+xml but prefers the former. A straightforward substring search won't get the job done correctly. It's true that these are unusual cases and the consequences of getting it wrong are minor (text/html sent instead of application/xhtml+xml). But my point was that it is easy to make mistakes, even if you're getting it right most of the time. There was a recent discussion (pretty vocal, if I remember correctly) on the W3 Validator list about the subject of content negotiation involving people with a deeper understanding and appreciation of the standards than me. You might find it interesting reading. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
Nikita wrote: I encourage you to try that with the W3C validator. You will not get the result you expect. Comes back as valid HTML, as I expected. The validator did flag / as warnings which it did not a few years back when the example was originally created. But W3C's validator warning messages are overly cautious - it still warns about the use of BOM which was a problem in the 90's. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-13 10:51 PM On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 10:02 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nikita wrote: the META tag would have to end in a / and then it wouldn't be valid HTML anymore. Sure it would. It may not be in the spec but it's a de facto standard. Even the W3C validator will accept it as valid HTML. I encourage you to try that with the W3C validator. You will not get the result you expect. Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-13 7:49 PM On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:17 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Nikita, Are you talking about putting an HTML doctype on XHTML 1.1-formatted code Yes, but normally you would put XHTML 1.1 markup into an template written for a different DOCTYPE as shown in this screen shot: http://xstandard.com/94E7EECB-E7CF-4122-A6AF-8F817AA53C78/html-layout-xhtml-content.gif Hi Vlad, OK, I see what you're trying to do, but the example you provided isn't valid XHTML. If it were, the META tag would have to end in a / and then it wouldn't be valid HTML anymore. In other words, it's a good example of why you can't just change the doctype in order to switch between HTML and XHTML. (In addition, the tags would have to be lowercase if it were XHTML, but that's easy to remedy and also works in HTML.) The (X)HTML in the example and content negotiation code you've suggested is probably adequate (from a practical standpoint) for many Webmasters, but it isn't standards compliant. Given the name of this list, that seems pretty significant. Cheers Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-13 8:43 AM On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:57 PM, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HTH wrote: ...server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content Assuming your are not writing static pages, you only need to generate one copy of content in XHTML 1.1 format and then serve it as any version of HTML as you like. I'm not sure what you mean -- I understand the XHTML 1.1 part, but what do you mean then by serve it as any version of HTML? Are you talking about putting an HTML doctype on XHTML 1.1-formatted code, or serving XHTML 1.1 with the text/html media type, or something else? HTH wrote: Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly At most, maybe 10 lines of code. Please see: http://xhtml.com/en/content-negotiation/ My point exactly -- that code is not correct. It produces the wrong result when presented with an Accept header of */* which is valid (see http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1) and indicates that the client can accept application/xhtml+xml. The code is also wrong in that the Accept header can contain preference indicators (q=...). It's valid for a client to indicate that it accept both text/html and application/xhtml+xml but prefers the former. A straightforward substring search won't get the job done correctly. It's true that these are unusual cases and the consequences of getting it wrong are minor (text/html sent instead of application/xhtml+xml). But my point was that it is easy to make mistakes, even if you're getting it right most of the time. There was a recent discussion (pretty vocal, if I remember correctly) on the W3 Validator list about the subject of content negotiation involving people with a deeper understanding and appreciation of the standards than me. You might find it interesting reading. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines:
[WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
Hi, Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 and does it provide any benefits? I've read up on what the differences are but I was under the belief IE won't support it without a particular hack. Is there a reason why not many sites adopt this Doctype and is there any point using right now if your site is 1.0 Strict? Secondly, I see a lot of sites that speak about CSS3 and using parts of that now in the browsers that support it. I get along fine with CSS 2 but haven't really adopted or tried any of the newer more advanced CSS3 techniques. I haven't really had to. Is it also worth learning this now or can I expect IE to hold back this standard for a long time yet? Thanks for your opinions Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
On 12 May 2008, at 22:42, Simon wrote: Hi, Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 and does it provide any benefits? I've read up on what the differences are but I was under the belief IE won't support it without a particular hack. Is there a reason why not many sites adopt this Doctype and is there any point using right now if your site is 1.0 Strict? Not really. There are only a couple of main differences between XHTML 1 and 1.1. The first is that it has been redefined in a modular fashion. As a web developer you get no benefit from this. The second difference is that there is a Ruby module (the only new functionality). Ruby is a way of including ruby text relating to the regular text. This is mostly used in Asian languages to explain how to pronounce words. It is only supported by IE, even though XHTML isn't supported by IE. Secondly, I see a lot of sites that speak about CSS3 and using parts of that now in the browsers that support it. I get along fine with CSS 2 but haven't really adopted or tried any of the newer more advanced CSS3 techniques. I haven't really had to. Is it also worth learning this now or can I expect IE to hold back this standard for a long time yet? Depends on what you want to do. Media Queries are useful for optimising form mobile for example. There are a lot of nice new CSS3 selectors, supported by Opera and Safari (and to some extent Firefox), but they are not supported by IE. text-shadow is something I use quite a bit as it degrades gracefully in browsers that don't support it (IE and Firefox both don't), thus is unless you use a text colour the same as the background colour. box-shadow and border-radius are other properties that fallback nicely when not supported. Web fonts look interesting, but it may be hampered by needing to use free fonts that are allowed to be freely distributed. Some CSS3 is already used quite often in websites, such as opacity (supported by all mainstream browsers except IE) Some CSS3 are standardisation's of IE only propertis, such as overflow-x and overflow-y, which have widespread support now. Thanks for your opinions Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Simon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 Of the doctypes that my validator Nikita saw in one sample period, just slightly over 2% were XHTML 1.1. It's worth noting that most, if not all, were sent with the wrong media type. http://NikitaTheSpider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/#doctypes and does it provide any benefits? Well, compared to what? HTML 4.01 Strict, XHTML 1.0 Transitional or XHTML 1.0 Strict? Is there a reason why not many sites adopt this Doctype and is there any point using right now if your site is 1.0 Strict? One big impediment to using XHTML 1.1 is that it must be sent with the application/xhtml+xml media type which makes IE6 choke. That implies that the server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content unless you're willing to refuse IE users. Does this sound appealing yet? Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly, even ignoring the cost of generating both two versions of one's content. Given the extra work required to support XHTML 1.1, there would have to be some pretty darn compelling reasons to use it, and those reasons just aren't there for most people. There's quite enough people who question the use of XHTML 1.0 over HTML (I'm one of them), let alone XHTML 1.1. About XHTML and media types: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/#summary HTH -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
Is there a reason why not many sites adopt this Doctype and is there any point using right now if your site is 1.0 Strict? Very very generally, I've found it's less critical which standard you use than whether your stuff validates in your chosen standard. Secondly, I see a lot of sites that speak about CSS3 and using parts of that now in the browsers that support it. Basically what you're getting into there is the progressive enhancement methodology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement). Personally I think it's the way to go - give good stuff to the good browsers, so long as it doesn't mess up the bad ones. That way IE doesn't hold everything up. cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
One big impediment to using XHTML 1.1 is that it must be sent with the application/xhtml+xml media type which makes IE6 choke. That implies that the server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content unless you're willing to refuse IE users. Does this sound appealing yet? Very appealing...unless they're ie7 obviously *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
HTH wrote: ...server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content Assuming your are not writing static pages, you only need to generate one copy of content in XHTML 1.1 format and then serve it as any version of HTML as you like. HTH wrote: Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly At most, maybe 10 lines of code. Please see: http://xhtml.com/en/content-negotiation/ Simon wrote: Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 and does it provide any benefits? The benefits are on the content production side. If you author your content in XHTML, you can parse it with an off-the-shelf XML parser and make modifications to your content en-masse. This gives you control over your content. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com XStandard XHTML (Strict or 1.1) WYSIWYG Editor Original Message From: Nikita The Spider The Spider Date: 2008-05-12 8:36 PM On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Simon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Does anyone use XHTML 1.1 Of the doctypes that my validator Nikita saw in one sample period, just slightly over 2% were XHTML 1.1. It's worth noting that most, if not all, were sent with the wrong media type. http://NikitaTheSpider.com/articles/ByTheNumbers/#doctypes and does it provide any benefits? Well, compared to what? HTML 4.01 Strict, XHTML 1.0 Transitional or XHTML 1.0 Strict? Is there a reason why not many sites adopt this Doctype and is there any point using right now if your site is 1.0 Strict? One big impediment to using XHTML 1.1 is that it must be sent with the application/xhtml+xml media type which makes IE6 choke. That implies that the server has to do content negotiation in order to send text/html with one doctype (HTML or XHTML 1.0) to IE users and application/xhtml+xml/XHTML 1.1 to everyone else. That means you're generating two copies of all of your content unless you're willing to refuse IE users. Does this sound appealing yet? Furthermore, content negotiation itself is some work to get done correctly, even ignoring the cost of generating both two versions of one's content. Given the extra work required to support XHTML 1.1, there would have to be some pretty darn compelling reasons to use it, and those reasons just aren't there for most people. There's quite enough people who question the use of XHTML 1.0 over HTML (I'm one of them), let alone XHTML 1.1. About XHTML and media types: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/#summary HTH *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
and if you are wanting valid css then css3 will throw up errors in the w3c css validator. dwain *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 CSS3 - Is it worth using right now?
On May 12, 2008, at 11:13 PM, dwain wrote: and if you are wanting valid css then css3 will throw up errors in the w3c css validator. Not if you use the CSS level 3 validator ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***