Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
I think i agree with all of the above, that using Flash for navigation is not a good or applicable solution, even with appropiate fallback. The only reason i could think of for using Flash in this case would be, when a specific font is required, that will just not render properly with (X)HTML/CSS/Javascript. This reminds me alot of the about sFIR, the Flash image replacement method. regards, Jens willdonovan wrote: I know that there are a lot of free javascript libraries available for you to use without having to go to the extent of programming your own javascript features. things like dhtml goodies and scriptaculous, I'm sure the group has some other options but this is getting off topic now. a quick search would find a few for you. William *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
Hi Patrick, i know thats the case with flash but what about the css/xhtml no flash content that validates when you use swf object 2.0 static method. If theres no flash support it degrades to normal xhtml navigation. A more specific question is if the majority of users are using the flash to navigate how will it impact seo? Patrick H. Lauke wrote: kevin mcmonagle wrote: Using swf object 2.0 embeded swfs as an xhtml sites primary navigation - what are the liabilities? without flash, no navigation; not crawled/indexed by search engines; not keyboard-accessible in firefox; even in other browsers, not accessible unless you make damn sure your flash itself is accessible; wouldn't work on devices like iPhone and co... more? P *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
On 25 Jun 2008, at 00:35, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Using swf object 2.0 embeded swfs as an xhtml sites primary navigation - what are the liabilities? Assuming SWFObject 2 is like SWFObject 1 it writes your Flash file into a named Div. This div can (and should) hold alternative/falback content, which in this case should clearly be a fully-functioning html/ css navigation system. If the visitor has Flash then the Flash swf replaces the alternative content. If they don't (or if they don't have javascript turned on) then they'll get the fallback content, which should also suffice for search engines. (Of course, don't make your fallback navigation javascript-dependant). If you don't provide a fallback then all the pitfalls that Patrick lists are, of course, applicable. And whether the SWFObject system plays nicely with all combinations of assistive technology is another issue, but one that I can't answer. I seem to recall reading that SWFObject 2 has an alternative method of implementation that doesn't require javascript (v1 only had the javascript option) but I've not toyed with it since version 1 so I can't confirm. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
Rick Lecoat wrote: If the visitor has Flash then the Flash swf replaces the alternative content. If they don't (or if they don't have javascript turned on) then they'll get the fallback content, which should also suffice for search engines. (Of course, don't make your fallback navigation javascript-dependant). Hi rick, Yes but do search engines count the times an xhtml link is clicked or when the page is loaded? For example: If there are two sites. one uses a swf object 2 swf for navigation like this: div id=swf_obeject_content ul class=navlist lia href... lia href... /ul /div One doesnt: div id=regurlar_div ul class=navlist lia href... lia href... /ul /div would google give the same ranking to both pages?? is it possible to be sure? -best kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
Regardless of whether you stick alternative navigation in the div that's going to be replaced, I've personally found using Flash for navigation about the worst use of Flash possible. Are you sure that you cannot achieve what you want by using HTML with some enhancements thrown in by javascript? On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25 Jun 2008, at 00:35, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Using swf object 2.0 embeded swfs as an xhtml sites primary navigation - what are the liabilities? Assuming SWFObject 2 is like SWFObject 1 it writes your Flash file into a named Div. This div can (and should) hold alternative/falback content, which in this case should clearly be a fully-functioning html/css navigation system. If the visitor has Flash then the Flash swf replaces the alternative content. If they don't (or if they don't have javascript turned on) then they'll get the fallback content, which should also suffice for search engines. (Of course, don't make your fallback navigation javascript-dependant). If you don't provide a fallback then all the pitfalls that Patrick lists are, of course, applicable. And whether the SWFObject system plays nicely with all combinations of assistive technology is another issue, but one that I can't answer. I seem to recall reading that SWFObject 2 has an alternative method of implementation that doesn't require javascript (v1 only had the javascript option) but I've not toyed with it since version 1 so I can't confirm. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
There isn't really a way for a search engine to see how many times a link has been clicked. It is however possible for a search engine to see / count how many links are pointing to a page (either internally or externally), thereby measuring its 'popularity'. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:44 PM, kevin mcmonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick Lecoat wrote: If the visitor has Flash then the Flash swf replaces the alternative content. If they don't (or if they don't have javascript turned on) then they'll get the fallback content, which should also suffice for search engines. (Of course, don't make your fallback navigation javascript-dependant). Hi rick, Yes but do search engines count the times an xhtml link is clicked or when the page is loaded? For example: If there are two sites. one uses a swf object 2 swf for navigation like this: div id=swf_obeject_content ul class=navlist lia href... lia href... /ul /div One doesnt: div id=regurlar_div ul class=navlist lia href... lia href... /ul /div would google give the same ranking to both pages?? is it possible to be sure? -best kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
Thank you matijs thats what i was wondering, you make a good point about using javascript but im not an expert in using it. Matijs wrote: There isn't really a way for a search engine to see how many times a link has been clicked. It is however possible for a search engine to see / count how many links are pointing to a page (either internally or externally), thereby measuring its 'popularity'. up.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
On 25 Jun 2008, at 11:49, Matijs wrote: Regardless of whether you stick alternative navigation in the div that's going to be replaced, I've personally found using Flash for navigation about the worst use of Flash possible. Are you sure that you cannot achieve what you want by using HTML with some enhancements thrown in by javascript? Yes, I wasn't really advocating using Flash for navigation, just noting the options. HTML and javascript would be preferable, no doubt, especially since the visitor would probably need javascript turned on in order to use the SWFObject option anyway. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
I know that there are a lot of free javascript libraries available for you to use without having to go to the extent of programming your own javascript features. things like dhtml goodies and scriptaculous, I'm sure the group has some other options but this is getting off topic now. a quick search would find a few for you. William kevin mcmonagle wrote: Thank you matijs thats what i was wondering, you make a good point about using javascript but im not an expert in using it. Matijs wrote: There isn't really a way for a search engine to see how many times a link has been clicked. It is however possible for a search engine to see / count how many links are pointing to a page (either internally or externally), thereby measuring its 'popularity'. up.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
Using swf object 2.0 embeded swfs as an xhtml sites primary navigation - what are the liabilities? -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
kevin mcmonagle wrote: Using swf object 2.0 embeded swfs as an xhtml sites primary navigation - what are the liabilities? without flash, no navigation; not crawled/indexed by search engines; not keyboard-accessible in firefox; even in other browsers, not accessible unless you make damn sure your flash itself is accessible; wouldn't work on devices like iPhone and co... more? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate
If you want to use a flash based navigation system and you are using swf object then I would use the no script area to include a CSS based navigation system for non-flash users. This way it can be searched by Google etc and be user accessible. i.e. div id=flash_navigation ul id=navigation lia href=link.htmlLink/a/li /ul /div script type=text/javascript // ![CDATA[ var so = new SWFObject(bin/navigation.swf, navigation, 300, 50, 8, #00); so.addParam(scale, noscale); so.addParam(quality, high); so.addParam(wmode, transparent); so.addParam(movie,navigation); so.write(flash_navigation); // ]] /script -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kevin mcmonagle Sent: 25 June 2008 00:36 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] flash navigation - Devils advocate Using swf object 2.0 embeded swfs as an xhtml sites primary navigation - what are the liabilities? -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1514 - Release Date: 23/06/2008 07:17 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
