Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 8:55 PM, David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David I think that nobody has to have said it. It is simply a fact that is the easiest way to code. If you need an expert to tell you which way is best then you probably haven't tried it the other way around. Let me frame it in a metaphore. You're a teacher with 4 students, 3 of them are really good students, but the fourth is kind of slow, and has difficulty understanding instructions, and is frequently found making up his own little engish dailecs 4 u 2 reed. What approach would you take with this class? Do you start out by writing out the lesson in the dumbed down dialect, and hope that you don't bring down the level of the whole class by doing so? Or do you write the lesson in well structured english, and put dumbed down parentheticals to explain the difficult parts for the slow kid? In short, IE is a bad, outdated, dumb browser, and if you code for IE first, you run the risk of writing in a browser ebonics that make your pages look dumb to the other browsers, and you end up using slang words that none of the other browsers can understand properly. it's better to target the standards compliant browsers first (the ones that agree on a single language), and then dumb it down for the dumb browser. So, an appeal to an authority figure on this matter is not necessary. One only needs to look at the facts- And the evidence of the rather tenuous position many large companies now find themselves in when they can't upgrade from internet explorer 6 because all their intranet pages were authored to work ONLY in IE6. This is a tenuous position, because of the gaping security deficits in IE6 that put any large deployment in dire risk. sooner or later MS is going to stop supporting IE6, and then where will they be? So there's another argument: It's better to code to standards, because to depend on a single browser from a single company for your large investment is foolish. I'm sure you can come up with your own arguments, but yeah, it's also just easier to code in firefox first and then hack for IE. Firefox has fewer bugs, and is updated more frequently, and isn't trying to hold onto an illegal monopoly by pushing mutually indecipherable dialects, as microsoft does and continues to do. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
Why not just user Safari for Windows rather than Opera to get an idea how Safari works? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 willdonovan wrote: I would have to agree with the others here. Coding for / with FF is easier because of the debugging tools (i.e. Firebug, Web Developer Toolbar, etc) Otherwise I have atleast 4 other browsers open, all the popular IE's (5.5, 6, 7 soon 8) and Opera. I do find that Opera can give a good idea of what might be happening with Safari if your a PC user, but do check from time to time, like after major fixes and development stages. William [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is how I work, but mainly for pragmatic reasons: Better JavaScript de-bugging tools in FireFox. Better CSS support, therefore fewer problems out of the box, and better stylesheet analysis tools. Finally, the one good reason: anything that needs to be fixed for IE can be done with conditional comments, no such luck if you do things the other way around. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David McKinnon Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 11:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
Hi David, Good question you raise. This's how I've been working for years - design for the most standards-compliant browser, FF. Could it be that we code for FF because it's easier to debug (Firebug)? Or perhaps, that most designers hear of/read articles about IE hacks assuming that it's the least compliant? I'd be interested if anyone can 'validate' this argument as I'm sure a lot of designers are of the same opinion. Rob 2008/9/1 David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- / Rob Enslin / enslin.co.uk / twitter.com/robenslin / +44759 052 8890 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
This is how I work, but mainly for pragmatic reasons: Better JavaScript de-bugging tools in FireFox. Better CSS support, therefore fewer problems out of the box, and better stylesheet analysis tools. Finally, the one good reason: anything that needs to be fixed for IE can be done with conditional comments, no such luck if you do things the other way around. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David McKinnon Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 11:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
If coding for the most standards compliant browser, then hack for IE, then you wouldn't code for FF first. Maybe third. It however comes with the best developer tools on the market, which makes it easier to developer for, and that comes from someone that is working as the product manager for Opera Dragonfly. We are working to catch up with and surpass the likes of Firebug and friends, but we are not there yet. It is probably best in my opinion to develop while checking in at least two of the major none-IE/Trident browsers engines (preferably three), especially after making major changes, just to make sure you are not relying on a browser bug or a vendor specific property. Then make it work for IE using conditional comments, as they are much less frail than css hacks and browser sniffing. With CC's you can override the properties IE gets incorrect or doesn't support by using the CSS cascade, and you never have to worry about them affecting the other browsers. On 1 Sep 2008, at 12:55, David McKinnon wrote: Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** David Storey Chief Web Opener, Product Manager Opera Dragonfly, Consumer Product Manager Opera Core, W3C Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group member Consumer Product Management Developer Relations Opera Software ASA Oslo, Norway Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://my.opera.com/dstorey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? I use basically the same approach, but I code for Opera; checking in Firefox and Safari. Then hack for IE at the end. On very large builds I do the occasional check for IE as well just to make sure things haven't gone really badly wrong in IE in some unpredictable way. I don't think you should code for firefox though. That's no better than coding for IE since you're just coding for a specific browser. A much better way to operate is coding for standards compliant browsers (or at least those browsers with the strongest standards support). I would recommend you broaden your initial testing to include Opera and Safari as well - they generally agree anyway but it's better to be thorough. If your boss really questions this you can always point out that building and testing in the better browsers is much faster. Most people find it is more efficient to get things working in the good browsers then do one round of hacking at the end for IE. I know I find it more efficient that way. You just have to get clients/etc to do their previews in something other than IE :) cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
I have also read and believe that you code correctly and, yes, the browsers that are web standard compliant should not need any hacks. However there will most likely be the need for IE6 hacks. --- Original Message --- From:David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent:Mon 9/1/08 6:55 am To:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subj:[WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
I would say code for standards at the end of the day, because standard is really the minimum requirement, once that's ticked off then code/hack for other browsers. Can't say I've read it anywhere but my web sites certainly look, work and load a lot better since I've started following that process. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David McKinnon Sent: 01 September 2008 11:55 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1644 - Release Date: 31/08/2008 16:59 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
David McKinnon wrote: For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. Is this the way anyone works? Apart from that I code for the most standard compliant browsers (plural) at present time, and then hack for various IE versions, I think I'll go along with your principle. FWIW: Firefox (3.01) is third on my list of reasonable compliant browsers at the moment. Is it the best way to work? Well, it is rather time-consuming and impractical to code for IE and then hack for the other browsers, so I think you got that about right too :-) Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Maybe on this old note... http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=WhichBrowsers regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
I would have to agree with the others here. Coding for / with FF is easier because of the debugging tools (i.e. Firebug, Web Developer Toolbar, etc) Otherwise I have atleast 4 other browsers open, all the popular IE's (5.5, 6, 7 soon 8) and Opera. I do find that Opera can give a good idea of what might be happening with Safari if your a PC user, but do check from time to time, like after major fixes and development stages. William [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is how I work, but mainly for pragmatic reasons: Better JavaScript de-bugging tools in FireFox. Better CSS support, therefore fewer problems out of the box, and better stylesheet analysis tools. Finally, the one good reason: anything that needs to be fixed for IE can be done with conditional comments, no such luck if you do things the other way around. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David McKinnon Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 11:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
I started learning hacks, and now don't use them at all. I find that if I'm attempting to make the site cross browser, try not to make the CSS too complicated. William David Storey wrote: If coding for the most standards compliant browser, then hack for IE, then you wouldn't code for FF first. Maybe third. It however comes with the best developer tools on the market, which makes it easier to developer for, and that comes from someone that is working as the product manager for Opera Dragonfly. We are working to catch up with and surpass the likes of Firebug and friends, but we are not there yet. It is probably best in my opinion to develop while checking in at least two of the major none-IE/Trident browsers engines (preferably three), especially after making major changes, just to make sure you are not relying on a browser bug or a vendor specific property. Then make it work for IE using conditional comments, as they are much less frail than css hacks and browser sniffing. With CC's you can override the properties IE gets incorrect or doesn't support by using the CSS cascade, and you never have to worry about them affecting the other browsers. On 1 Sep 2008, at 12:55, David McKinnon wrote: Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** David Storey Chief Web Opener, Product Manager Opera Dragonfly, Consumer Product Manager Opera Core, W3C Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group member Consumer Product Management Developer Relations Opera Software ASA Oslo, Norway Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://my.opera.com/dstorey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
On 1 Sep 2008, at 12:27, Ben Buchanan wrote: I use basically the same approach, but I code for Opera; checking in Firefox and Safari. Then hack for IE at the end. On very large builds I do the occasional check for IE as well just to make sure things haven't gone really badly wrong in IE in some unpredictable way. Same here, more or less. My coding environment is Coda on a Mac, which provides a constant webkit-based preview on the fly. That pretty much takes care of Safari (mac). Then I make frequent checks in FF and Opera to make sure that there are no inconsistencies, with FF probably taking priority over Opera because of its handy development add-ons. Lastly, I make occasional trips to IE 6/7/8 to check out that browser's own 'exciting' take on things. These tend to be required more frequently in the early stages of page construction when the basic structure is being laid down. That is the time that I most commonly run afoul of IE bugs and/or Trident idiosyncrasies. I try to correct these as I go rather than waiting until the end because otherwise it can be much harder to trace the root of a problem. On 1 Sep 2008, at 13:30, willdonovan wrote: I find that if I'm attempting to make the site cross browser, try not to make the CSS too complicated. I agree. Keeping the CSS simple and thus maintaining the page in 'standards mode' means that many of the IE box model problems can be avoided. Unless I have an overly complex page design I can generally avoid most IE hacks altogether (although I still add in things like display:inline for floated content) -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
Hi David, I wouldnt say that I code for Firefox, more that I code in immaculate standards compliant code and that it seems to work best in Firefox, Safari and Opera ;) You are right though - make for standard complient browsers and then use conditional statements for IE. Most of the time these are to fix very minimal spacing issues. This isnt much but this article on sitepoint defines that firefox is the browser for web developers: http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/08/29/would-you-switch-to-ie8/ Darren Lovelock Munkyonline.co.uk Quoting David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
I think that I've read about this in Andy Clarke's Transcending CSS book. Maybe it's under the Progressive Enhancement approach. On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 9:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi David, I wouldnt say that I code for Firefox, more that I code in immaculate standards compliant code and that it seems to work best in Firefox, Safari and Opera ;) You are right though - make for standard complient browsers and then use conditional statements for IE. Most of the time these are to fix very minimal spacing issues. This isnt much but this article on sitepoint defines that firefox is the browser for web developers: http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/08/29/would-you-switch-to-ie8/ Darren Lovelock Munkyonline.co.uk Quoting David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
My 2 cents: I've been coding CSS layouts since 2003. I've probably laid out several hundred sites at this point. Today, I always code on FF first (yes for the tools). Yes, Opera renders a little more accurately. Once you learn little CSS tricks to stabilize floated items, their containers etc your pages should look good in Opera and Safari first run when coded on FF. Once you learn the troublespots in IE (widths with padding, dealing with heights) they're easy to spot and fix. Many of the issues can be solved by one extra element in your html (or one less depending). Best way to troubleshoot if you haven't dealt with all the bugs is to remove stuff from your page until you can isolate your trouble spot. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] huzairy rezuan wrote: I think that I've read about this in Andy Clarke's Transcending CSS book. Maybe it's under the Progressive Enhancement approach. On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 9:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi David, I wouldnt say that I code for Firefox, more that I code in immaculate standards compliant code and that it seems to work best in Firefox, Safari and Opera ;) You are right though - make for standard complient browsers and then use conditional statements for IE. Most of the time these are to fix very minimal spacing issues. This isnt much but this article on sitepoint defines that firefox is the browser for web developers: http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/08/29/would-you-switch-to-ie8/ Darren Lovelock Munkyonline.co.uk http://Munkyonline.co.uk Quoting David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 20:55:07 +1000, David McKinnon wrote: For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. Interesting thread. I learned CSS from Eric Meyer on CSS books. He gives several ideas for avoiding browser bugs and related hacks altogether. FWIW - I assist at a web design class for adults. The teacher advises students to target IE (6) first, her rationale being that potential employers are likely to use it. But I find so very many students get frustrated, reaching an impasse when they can't get their working IE code to display the same way in other browsers. Indeed, the teacher recently asked my help to fix a bug in Opera when a hack failed to work in that browser. A few years ago, before Firebug came out, I designed first for Opera. However, this got a bit frustrating when learning CSS, because Opera recognized far more CSS than any other browser ! With the recent spate of browser releases, we now have highly conformant versions of Firefox, Opera, and Safari, each with their own set of tools. With all this goodness, I feel like a kid in a candy store! But I have a confession - I am so pleased that the World's Favorite Browser exists, or I wouldn't be able to charge so much. ;) Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
On Mon, 2008-09-01 at 22:09 +1000, willdonovan wrote: I do find that Opera can give a good idea of what might be happening with Safari if your a PC user... Safari has been available for Windows for a little while now. -- Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
I thought that was the case but does it render the same. FF renders quite differently I find across PC, Mac and Lynx. William Nathan de Vries wrote: On Mon, 2008-09-01 at 22:09 +1000, willdonovan wrote: I do find that Opera can give a good idea of what might be happening with Safari if your a PC user... Safari has been available for Windows for a little while now. -- Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
From: willdonovan [EMAIL PROTECTED] I thought that was the case but does it render the same. FF renders quite differently I find across PC, Mac and Lynx. Safari does have some bugs (what browser doesn't?) but, in my experience, the largest area of concern for certain types of layouts, is in how differently Safari renders text. Its font-smoothing marches to a much different drummer :-) A case in point would be a floated menu list without a defined width for each LI (or width set in ems). The list will be signifantly wider in Safari. As for the original question, it's usually better to code to standards. Addressing IE can be easy or hard, depending on experience level. After a while IE bugs become second nature... resulting in a hack as you go type of workflow. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***