RE: [WSG] jump menu method
Just a thought, but if all the links are counties within a greater whole, why not use a happy map image map interface? Thats a-okay standards-wise, and degrades nicely into a list of links, and looks cute for visitors. Joe there is a mapping system done w/ flash, i have to tie that in as well. You can see it on the current site at www.onetouchireland.com Terrence Wood wrote: Lachlan Hardy said: build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform that into a dropdown list for those with JS. Consider it a 'white lie of web design' or call it 'progressive enhancement'. nice solution. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
As simple as http://realtor.com and choose map search. Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com Herrod, Lisa wrote: can you send a link to an example of one of these? thanks, lisa -Original Message- From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 4:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] jump menu method Just a thought, but if all the links are counties within a greater whole, why not use a happy map image map interface? Thats a-okay standards-wise, and degrades nicely into a list of links, and looks cute for visitors. Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com Terrence Wood wrote: Lachlan Hardy said: build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform that into a dropdown list for those with JS. Consider it a 'white lie of web design' or call it 'progressive enhancement'. nice solution. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Lachlan Hardy said: Try this one: http://www.business.vic.gov.au/ where's the map? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Terrence Wood wrote: where's the map? I'm sorry, I thought Lisa wanted an example of the unordered list conversion to dropdown list ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
Nice script. What sort of attribution would you like if I borrow it? Geoff. Lachlan Hardy wrote: Herrod, Lisa wrote: can you send a link to an example of one of these? Try this one: http://www.business.vic.gov.au/ Hopefully, you'll forgive the lack of validation - not our implementation, although I'm sure it'll get there eventually Cheers Lachlan
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
Nice script. What sort of attribution would you like if I borrow it? It is brilliant Lachlan i'd like to use it to if you don't mind. -best -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
now I just want to find a way to use it because it sounds so good! -Original Message- From: kvnmcwebn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2005 12:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] jump menu method Nice script. What sort of attribution would you like if I borrow it? It is brilliant Lachlan i'd like to use it to if you don't mind. -best -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
kvnmcwebn wrote: Nice script. What sort of attribution would you like if I borrow it? It is brilliant Lachlan i'd like to use it to if you don't mind. Well, shucks, guys. Like I said, I didn't write it. I've just checked with a colleague, and as far as we can recall (this was months ago) it was our idea and a subcontractor did it for us. So whilst anyone is welcome to take the idea, I can't speak for the exact code On the other hand, it is remarkably simple to implement, so I can't imagine that you'd have too much difficulty working up something similar Out of interest, surely there are other folks out there doing this kind of thing? Perhaps someone else has a script they actually own the copyright to that they are willing to share? Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
No, you're right and it seems that I'm much dumber than that. The form uses POST indeed, but I managed to hide some link in a div with display: none to help the bots around my Java-only navigation (yes, it was that long ago; probably the very first CSS I wrote!)and, of course, one of those pointed straight to the receiving script... djn (hiding in shame...) Mark Stanton wrote: You must have been using GET rather than POST.Spider's won't submit forms that us POST, but they have every right to follow forms that use GET. -- Dejan Kozina Dolina 346 (TS) - I-34018 Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 - cell.: +39 348 7355 225 http://www.kozina.com/ - e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
kvnmcwebn wrote: My big concerns: how to make these jump menus standards and seo friendly? form name=nav select name=link onChange=location=document.nav.link.options[document.nav.link.selectedIndex ].value; value=GO option selectedChoose a Destination/option option value=http://www.mySite.com/default.asp;Home/option option value=http://www.mySite.com/contact.asp;Contact Us/option option value=http://www.mySite.com/help.asp;mySite.com Help Center/option /select /form A few issues: a) the menu functionality relies completely on javascript; if javascsript is unavailable or disabled, nothing works. Better to back it up with a proper form action which executes a redirection server-side. In addition, using onchange can cause problem for users browsing via the keyboard (including screen reader users). The most consistent solution is not to use any javascript at all, add a discrete submit button, and handle it all server-side. b) since you're not actually using any link to those pages, search engine spiders won't follow those URLs; unless you do provide some other form of navigation that links to those pages, you're effectively hiding your pages from search engines. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
On 21 Nov 2005, at 3:14 AM, kvnmcwebn wrote: My big concerns: how to make these jump menus standards and seo friendly? Simple answer: You can't. Don't use this method as a navigation device: 1. Search engines don't submit forms, and they don't use javascript, so this kind of navigation menu will never be SEO friendly. 2. This particular method is unfriendly - keyboard and screen reader users won't get past the first item. 3. Jump menus prevent uses from developing a quick overview of what's on your site by hiding the options... and that reduces your chances for completing with the back button. 4. Drop downs have other usability problems, and Jeffrey Zeldman hates them ;-) Apart from that a jump menu is HTML which you can make standards compliant. I have a long list of values to make into a navigation menu. I now think the only way will be to use a jump menu. Revisit your IA and see if you can introduce some additional levels of navigation by grouping similar pages under a broad term. If you really must use a drop down menu then check out brothercakes UDD: http://www.brothercake.com/dropdown/ Further Reading: Navigational pulldown menus in HTML http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/navmenu.html Drop-Down Menus: Use Sparingly http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001112.html Architectural Digest vs. This Old House (A List Apart No. 184) http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0604f.shtml#ala184 kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
Thanks for the replies -this is going to be tuff- Patrick--- the menu functionality relies completely on javascript. Unless you do provide some other form of navigation that links to those pages, you're effectively hiding your pages from search engines. The .net programmer could make the form controls server side but would putting a token list of the links in the footer solve the seo problems at all? ---Terrence--- Theres no way of breaking down the navigation into smaller chunks without creating a mystery meat situation. The brothercake dhtml menus seem like an option/last resort- but can a dhtml or css drop down menu force the page to scroll while a user follows a long list of links with the mouse? Here was the simple method that i suggested.. but the client has strong opinions against scrolling. http://mcmonagle.biz/dropdowns/ Here was another suggestion that i thought might work but they are not impressed. (view in ie) http://mcmonagle.biz/newoti/otinavtest.htm what about these simpler methods? thanks again kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
If you have to do it this way, and like everyone else I don't recommend it, then you could help the SEO by adding the pages in link tags to the head. see http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_link.asp for more info. Cheers Charlie web : http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11/20/05, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the replies-this is going to be tuff-Patrick---the menu functionality relies completely on _javascript_.Unless you do provide some other form of navigation that links to those pages, you're effectively hidingyour pages from search engines.The .net programmer could make the form controls server sidebut would putting a token list of the links in the footersolve the seo problems at all? ---Terrence---Theres no way of breaking down the navigation into smallerchunks without creating a mystery meat situation.The brothercake dhtml menus seem like an option/last resort-but can a dhtml or css drop down menu force the page to scroll whilea user follows a long list of links with the mouse?Here was the simple method that i suggested..but the client has strong opinions against scrolling.http://mcmonagle.biz/dropdowns/ Here was another suggestion that i thought might workbut they are not impressed. (view in ie)http://mcmonagle.biz/newoti/otinavtest.htm what about these simpler methods?thanks againkvnmcwebn**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] jump menu method (Out of office until Nov 23)
Hello, I am out of the office until Nov 23. I will have limited access to email so for any urgent queries please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] on (04) 474 3000 x8884. Thanks, Andy wsg 11/21/05 08:34 If you have to do it this way, and like everyone else I don't recommend it, then you could help the SEO by adding the pages in link tags to the head. see http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_link.asp for more info. Cheers Charlie web : http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11/20/05, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the replies -this is going to be tuff- Patrick--- the menu functionality relies completely on javascript. Unless you do provide some other form of navigation that links to those pages, you're effectively hiding your pages from search engines. The .net programmer could make the form controls server side but would putting a token list of the links in the footer solve the seo problems at all? ---Terrence--- Theres no way of breaking down the navigation into smaller chunks without creating a mystery meat situation. The brothercake dhtml menus seem like an option/last resort- but can a dhtml or css drop down menu force the page to scroll while a user follows a long list of links with the mouse? Here was the simple method that i suggested.. but the client has strong opinions against scrolling. http://mcmonagle.biz/dropdowns/ Here was another suggestion that i thought might work but they are not impressed. (view in ie) http://mcmonagle.biz/newoti/otinavtest.htm what about these simpler methods? thanks again kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
thanks charlie-thats interesting...so it looks like link rel=" subsection" type="text/css" href="" / link rel=" subsection" type="text/css" href="" / link rel=" subsection" type="text/css" href="" / link rel=" subsection" type="text/css" href="" / and so on might help. I dont think i can talk the client out of a drop down. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Charlie BartlettSent: 20 November 2005 19:34To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] jump menu methodIf you have to do it this way, and like everyone else I don't recommend it, then you could help the SEO by adding the pages in link tags to the head.see http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_link.asp for more info.CheersCharlieweb : http://www.bartlettdesign.co.ukmail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11/20/05, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the replies-this is going to be tuff-Patrick---the menu functionality relies completely on _javascript_.Unless you do provide some other form of navigation that links to those pages, you're effectively hidingyour pages from search engines.The .net programmer could make the form controls server sidebut would putting a token list of the links in the footersolve the seo problems at all? ---Terrence---Theres no way of breaking down the navigation into smallerchunks without creating a mystery meat situation.The brothercake dhtml menus seem like an option/last resort-but can a dhtml or css drop down menu force the page to scroll whilea user follows a long list of links with the mouse?Here was the simple method that i suggested..but the client has strong opinions against scrolling.http://mcmonagle.biz/dropdowns/ Here was another suggestion that i thought might workbut they are not impressed. (view in ie)http://mcmonagle.biz/newoti/otinavtest.htmwhat about these simpler methods?thanks againkvnmcwebn**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
kvnmcwebn said: Theres no way of breaking down the navigation into smaller chunks without creating a mystery meat situation. Here was the simple method that i suggested.. http://mcmonagle.biz/dropdowns/ That is quite different from the original sample supplied and it *does* look the ideal candidate for a dropdown. In my previous reply to you I meant to say don't use a drop down as your *main* navigation device, but if it meant to winnow/filter a result set (e.g. by geographical location, as suggested by the above sample) then that does make sense and is typical use of a select dropdown. Redundant links will solve your SEO problems, if you want the spiders to index every page, but I suspect you have an IA problem. e.g. instead of county/hotels, it could be hotels/county gives a better result in navigation terms. One more gotcha to think about, if your url scheme is query based (e.g. index.asp?county=corkthing=hotel) then the site may have problems being indexed. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
2005-11-20
Thread
Marko Mihelcic - founder of mcville.net (http.//www.mcville.net)|(http://board.mcville.net)
Heya- try to find some nice ajax drop down thingyee like moo.fx ( http://www.mad4milk.net/ ) cheers 2005/11/20, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]: kvnmcwebn said: Theres no way of breaking down the navigation into smaller chunks without creating a mystery meat situation. Here was the simple method that i suggested.. http://mcmonagle.biz/dropdowns/ That is quite different from the original sample supplied and it *does* look the ideal candidate for a dropdown. In my previous reply to you I meant to say don't use a drop down as your *main* navigation device, but if it meant to winnow/filter a result set (e.g. by geographical location, as suggested by the above sample) then that does make sense and is typical use of a select dropdown. Redundant links will solve your SEO problems, if you want the spiders to index every page, but I suspect you have an IA problem. e.g. instead of county/hotels, it could be hotels/county gives a better result in navigation terms. One more gotcha to think about, if your url scheme is query based (e.g. index.asp?county=corkthing=hotel) then the site may have problems being indexed. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
Thanks for clarifiying Terrence-i should have made my example more accurate. The url shceme is query based, i saw a thread about that recently i will look it up. So-should i use the link attribute as Charlie said in addition to the redundant links? Or does the query based url throw a wrench in the link attribute? ..it could be hotels/county gives a better result in navigation terms This makes sense but this particular site has a lot of categories and sub categories, almost as many as counties... thanks a million -kvnmcwebn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: 20 November 2005 20:05 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] jump menu method kvnmcwebn said: Theres no way of breaking down the navigation into smaller chunks without creating a mystery meat situation. Here was the simple method that i suggested.. http://mcmonagle.biz/dropdowns/ That is quite different from the original sample supplied and it *does* look the ideal candidate for a dropdown. In my previous reply to you I meant to say don't use a drop down as your *main* navigation device, but if it meant to winnow/filter a result set (e.g. by geographical location, as suggested by the above sample) then that does make sense and is typical use of a select dropdown. Redundant links will solve your SEO problems, if you want the spiders to index every page, but I suspect you have an IA problem. e.g. instead of county/hotels, it could be hotels/county gives a better result in navigation terms. One more gotcha to think about, if your url scheme is query based (e.g. index.asp?county=corkthing=hotel) then the site may have problems being indexed. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
kvnmcwebn said: So-should i use the link attribute as Charlie said in addition to the redundant links? Or does the query based url throw a wrench in the link attribute? yes same thing applies - some spiders discard anything after the ? to prevent endless loops and indexing session id's, referers and other cruft. Use URL rewriting and create top level landing pages and query based URI for specific dynamic content (e.g. Macromedia springs to mind) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
will do- thanks again terrence ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: kvnmcwebn wrote: My big concerns: how to make these jump menus standards and seo friendly? As others have mentioned, there are various usability issues. However, in these circumstances (insistent clients etc) we usually build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform that into a dropdown list for those with JS. This means that your menu will be more search engine and screen reader friendly, while still looking the way your client prefers it Consider it a 'white lie of web design' Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Lachlan Hardy said: build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform that into a dropdown list for those with JS. Consider it a 'white lie of web design' or call it 'progressive enhancement'. nice solution. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Just a quick correction to a previous message: searchbots DO submit HTML forms. Years ago I wrote a contact form (no javascript involved) with a PHP script sending mail to myself and didn't care to check if any user input was actually submitted, so now I know every time a bot passes by because I get an email with empty placeholders only. djn Terrence Wood wrote: Search engines don't submit forms -- Dejan Kozina Dolina 346 (TS) - I-34018 Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 - cell.: +39 348 7355 225 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
You must have been using GET rather than POST.Spider's won't submit forms that us POST, but they have every right to follow forms that use GET. http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/04/24/deviant.html http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2005/05/06/This-Stuff-Matters -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Just a thought, but if all the links are counties within a greater whole, why not use a happy map image map interface? Thats a-okay standards-wise, and degrades nicely into a list of links, and looks cute for visitors. Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com Terrence Wood wrote: Lachlan Hardy said: build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform that into a dropdown list for those with JS. Consider it a 'white lie of web design' or call it 'progressive enhancement'. nice solution. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] jump menu method
can you send a link to an example of one of these? thanks, lisa -Original Message- From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 4:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] jump menu method Just a thought, but if all the links are counties within a greater whole, why not use a happy map image map interface? Thats a-okay standards-wise, and degrades nicely into a list of links, and looks cute for visitors. Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com Terrence Wood wrote: Lachlan Hardy said: build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform that into a dropdown list for those with JS. Consider it a 'white lie of web design' or call it 'progressive enhancement'. nice solution. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Herrod, Lisa wrote: can you send a link to an example of one of these? Try this one: http://www.business.vic.gov.au/ Hopefully, you'll forgive the lack of validation - not our implementation, although I'm sure it'll get there eventually Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
