RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard
Dear Kevin

I'm a .net developer, working entirely in web standards and producing
semantically correct xhtml output from server side code. There is little
or no exra effort required to produce output on a web page (in ASP.NET -
a web form) that meets web standards. Your developer can output data to
the user interface using a Repeater control and item templates that you
can format for him. You don't need to develop composite controls for
this, although you can. In any event, if the output needs to be
formatted in a composite control then all well and good. This is just
extending the maintainability and reuse that both css in design and
object oriented code development (all .net is OO) promote. This concept
is tried and tested. The developer is essentially crossing boundaries
here. If he cannot accept the extra effort required to bring an .aspx
page into the design that you have produced, why not suggest that you
sit with him and iron out the bugs. I would even suggest that you
consider picking up the basics of aspx page development, not the code,
but the web controls that are available in .net and see if you can
suggest how you can work more closely on the output generated by the
server to ensure that he understands the benefits of a collaboration. 

I'm in the fortunate (IMHO) position of working on both aspects of the
web application, so I understand the dichotomy that exists in this
scenario. Basically, a coder is mostly concerned with the complex wiring
of an application and is basically satisfied that the application runs
correctly, behaves according to the specification and handles errors
gracefully, whilst operating as efficiently as the server environment
allows. The designer is anxious to control the output to the user
interface and to ensure this meets the design brief. The two parties are
really working towards the same goal. They just start from opposite ends
of the process. 

From what you say, selling the concept of web standards to the developer
is not going to be the answer. Instead try to encourage him to work with
you and ask him to help you understand the issues he faces. 

If you go to the meeting on Monday expecting a bloodbath, that is what
will happen irrespective of what attitude the developer brings to the
table. It will do neither you nor the developer any good if this
happens, and the cause of web standards will not have won any support. I
urge you to believe strongly enough in your arguments to not wield them
as a weapon. 

Believe it or not, Microsoft, who get plenty of criticism (sometimes
justifiably) have made all the tools available to developers to build
standards compliant applications. The Developer Qualifiactions (MCAD,
MCSD and the new Microsoft .net exams) all promote web standards based
application development. If the developer has chosen to work with this
technology, encourage him to embrace the principles of good application
design.

I wish you all the very best with this.

If I can be of any help please contact me off list.

Peter Goddard
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: 16 March 2006 22:03
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .net question

thanks geoff, i guess thats i will have to be level headed in my
aproach.

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard
 I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about
standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

Nice one Ben! Sack the designer!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Wong
Sent: 16 March 2006 23:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .net question

On 3/17/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you would like to see some examples of what im talking about heres 
 one of the 1st sites i did with the programmer in question. notice the

 special offers section and the reservations  form-when he got it there

 wasnt a table in site.
 http://www.shandonhotel.com/

What's wrong with the special offers section? I would've done it as a
table too. Maybe you could use a table, but it looks enough like
tablular data to use a table. I'm with you on the reservations form
though. I assume the programmer's done it as a user control if he's any
good.

Using a definition list for the content in the middle is going a bit
overboard, isn't it?

Personally, I don't see much evidence of him hacking up your design in
the site, apart from the reservation form. It could be much, much worse.

I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about
standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Ben Wong
On 3/17/06, Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
 problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about
 standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

 Nice one Ben! Sack the designer!


Awww, I'm not that harsh. I'll give him some time to steer away from
the dark side. I've managed to stop him from using tables for
structuring the site. I'm working on weening him off using them for
forms.

Anyway, I agree with your advice to Kevin. It would probably be good
to get involved in the
coding up of your design in ASP.NET. You wouldn't have to go all the
way and become a full-on ASP.NET guru, just learn the basic server
controls and how they are rendered in the browser.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Ottery
Peter Goddard wrote:-- I would even suggest that you-- consider picking up the basics of aspx page development, not the code,-- but the web controls that are available in .net and see if you can
-- suggest how you can work more closely ...a great informative post Peter.Another vote here for the collaborative approach.I was in a similar situation with a .NET dev guy and took the what can I do to make this easier for you approach to the meeting. He ended up installing Visual Studio on my machine, pointed me in the direction of the templates  repeatable elements, and I looked after all the html/css framework for him. the collaboration had other knock-on positive side effects and he's now an avid css advocate :)
cheers,pete o


RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard
Thanks Ben

ASP.NET 2.0 makes this so much easier!

ATB

Peter 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Wong
Sent: 17 March 2006 10:38
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .net question

On 3/17/06, Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
 problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about

 standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

 Nice one Ben! Sack the designer!


Awww, I'm not that harsh. I'll give him some time to steer away from the
dark side. I've managed to stop him from using tables for structuring
the site. I'm working on weening him off using them for forms.

Anyway, I agree with your advice to Kevin. It would probably be good to
get involved in the coding up of your design in ASP.NET. You wouldn't
have to go all the way and become a full-on ASP.NET guru, just learn the
basic server controls and how they are rendered in the browser.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard



Hi Peter

Its pleasing that mysuggestion seems to be making 
sense, given that i am a stand alone developer in a small company and its my 
first .net role!

I think you are absolutely right, Peter, and your clear 
example illustrates that collaboration wins every time!

Lets all wish Kevin the best of luck in sorting out this 
issue. 

All the best

Peter Goddard



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter 
OtterySent: 17 March 2006 10:48To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] .net 
question
Peter Goddard wrote:
-- I would even suggest that 
you-- consider picking up the basics of aspx page development, not the 
code,-- but the web controls that are available in .net and see if you 
can -- suggest how you can work more closely ...a great 
informative post Peter.Another vote here for the collaborative 
approach.I was in a similar situation with a .NET dev guy and took the "what 
can I do to make this easier for you" approach to the meeting. He ended up 
installing Visual Studio on my machine, pointed me in the direction of the 
templates  repeatable elements, and I looked after all the html/css 
framework for him. the collaboration had other knock-on positive side effects 
and he's now an avid css advocate :) cheers,pete 
o


Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread kvnmcwebn

Thanks Peter, and Ben, for great insight.
I will try to a collaborative aproach with the developer.

I know that a in a  previous situation with another developer we used 
repeaters to output standards code,
i would like to be able to stick css possitioning into a form repeater for 
him. im not even sure exactly on the difference between a repeater and a 
control but im reading up on the msdn site,
Building ASP.NET 2.0 Web Sites Using Web Standards and asp.net for 
designers.


ill let you know how i get on
thanks again
-kevin 



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Ben Wong
No worries. You might find some useful articles at
www.aspnetresources.com. Milan is _the_ man when it comes to ASP.NET
and web standards.

Agreed, Peter. ASP.NET 2.0 is a big step forward in the right direction.

On 3/17/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Thanks Peter, and Ben, for great insight.
 I will try to a collaborative aproach with the developer.

 I know that a in a  previous situation with another developer we used
 repeaters to output standards code,
 i would like to be able to stick css possitioning into a form repeater for
 him. im not even sure exactly on the difference between a repeater and a
 control but im reading up on the msdn site,
 Building ASP.NET 2.0 Web Sites Using Web Standards and asp.net for
 designers.

 ill let you know how i get on
 thanks again
 -kevin


 **
 The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
 **




--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



[WSG] .net question

2006-03-16 Thread kvnmcwebn

hello,

i just went to a lot of  trouble style a form, fieldsets, legends and all.

The visual studio programmer whos taking over the next phase says it will be 
coverted into tables.


we can't control database content all we can do is contain it

that was his argument.  why cant he contain it with css.
can somebody help me educate him?

maybe i should have this on the cms list.

-best kevin mcmonagle




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-16 Thread Rachel May
Hi Kevin,

If you have already created the html and css for the form, then the
developer should have no trouble fitting your structure into the .net
framework (we do it ever day here!).

It sounds like he wants to use the default pre-made controls for it?  Which
is unfortunately how a lot of .net developers work...  but it is definitely
possible for him to use your html.  It will just take him a little bit more
time.


Does this and the other replies help??


Rachel





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: Friday, 17 March 2006 5:13 a.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] .net question

hello,

i just went to a lot of  trouble style a form, fieldsets, legends and all.

The visual studio programmer whos taking over the next phase says it will be

coverted into tables.

we can't control database content all we can do is contain it

that was his argument.  why cant he contain it with css.
can somebody help me educate him?

maybe i should have this on the cms list.

-best kevin mcmonagle




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-16 Thread Christian Montoya
On 3/16/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 hello,

 i just went to a lot of  trouble style a form, fieldsets, legends and all.

 The visual studio programmer whos taking over the next phase says it will be
 coverted into tables.

 we can't control database content all we can do is contain it

This could be translated

- Visual Studio .NET is doing the whole thing for me and I don't have
time / don't know how to change it.

in which case you would be asking him to learn something he doesn't
know and/or do more work.

Or it could be translated

- I really don't know how to modify it even if I went into the code.

in which case you might be challenging his level of knowledge.

 that was his argument.  why cant he contain it with css.
 can somebody help me educate him?

It depends. I don't mean to scare you but sometimes people don't
respond well to this stuff. Does he usually respond well to
advice/criticism? Is he interested in learning better ways of doing
things? More importantly, the first thing to find out is whether or
not he is using the WYSIWYG view. If so then he probably really
doesn't know how to do this and he might not be open to learning.
Otherwise it might just be as simple as asking him to go into code
view and write custom forms.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-16 Thread kvnmcwebn

Rachel
Yes the comments have been helpful, basically confirming my suspicions.
If you would like to see some examples of what im talking about heres one of 
the 1st sites i did with the programmer in question. notice the special 
offers section and the reservations  form-when he got it there wasnt a table 
in site.

http://www.shandonhotel.com/



Christian .
The guy is a slacker, i worked with him on several projects and he just 
wants to make the client happy, dosnt care if its hacked silly. Im a bit 
sloppy myself sometimes buy i dont like using tables-at all.


Hes probably  somewhat unsure of  the exact way to customize the output but 
hes def not going spend extra time to learn how to do it right either.


I had to sell webstandards when i started designing for these guys. the 
agreed to make the transformation but now

there starting to get really laxed especially this dude.

also your right about something else, hes not taking my suggestions very 
well.


I have a meeting to discuss these issues on monday, its going to be a 
bloodbath.
My only hope is to sell  the project manager on total tabless layout and 
working towards valid code css.

thanks everyone
kevin



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-16 Thread kvnmcwebn

adam wrote:

Perhaps you should encourage some development of a collection of base
controls for your development team?


yes i will make a case for this,

any suggestions for my arguments???

basically need to sell the project manager who is cool but only concerned 
with
the bottom line. The developer will take the angle that im an overly 
emotional

designer and who cares how its made as long as the client is happy,
plus he will argue/exagerate the time it will take him to develop a 
standards

script library of controls.

i need to prove that its worthwile financially. i guess i can hit them with 
the

screen reader/usability thing again but  ive allready done that.

thanks
kevin 



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-16 Thread Geoff Deering

kvnmcwebn wrote:


hello,

i just went to a lot of  trouble style a form, fieldsets, legends and 
all.


The visual studio programmer whos taking over the next phase says it 
will be coverted into tables.


we can't control database content all we can do is contain it

that was his argument.  why cant he contain it with css.
can somebody help me educate him?

maybe i should have this on the cms list.

-best kevin mcmonagle




If you are working in an organisation or any sort of structure where 
there is a web development team the best thing to do is to raise an 
issue with the manager of the team to discuss the development processes.


In my own experience, even developers who know about and appreciate the 
benefit of standards may be limited in what they can do via the tools 
they *have* to use.  When it comes down to the bottom line, using the 
IDE for that particular environment, for all other productivity 
purposes, may outweigh any requirement to comply with standards.  If you 
can work out a methodology to work with this situation you could offer 
it at such a meeting.  That's quite possible, but it would have to fit 
in with the SDLC and budget.


Regardless of whether you can solve this situation or not, it should be 
bought to the attention of the web and project manager that they should 
address this concern in their SDLC, because if they don't, the designer 
is going to spend their time coding to standards, which is all lost in 
the next phase.  Not very good project management or ROI, but very few 
web teams I have seen refine their SDLC to address these issues.


Regards
Geoff
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-16 Thread Ben Wong
On 3/17/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you would like to see some examples of what im talking about heres one of
 the 1st sites i did with the programmer in question. notice the special
 offers section and the reservations  form-when he got it there wasnt a table
 in site.
 http://www.shandonhotel.com/

What's wrong with the special offers section? I would've done it as a
table too. Maybe you could use a table, but it looks enough like
tablular data to use a table. I'm with you on the reservations form
though. I assume the programmer's done it as a user control if he's
any good.

Using a definition list for the content in the middle is going a bit
overboard, isn't it?

Personally, I don't see much evidence of him hacking up your design in
the site, apart from the reservation form. It could be much, much
worse.

I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about
standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-16 Thread kvnmcwebn


thanks ben,
ok maybe im overeacting a bit, it gets to me when i spend time doing 
something with css

then it goes out the window for a table,

would you just use p's and h's instead of the definition list in the middle 
column body text?


I dont know about using the table for the special offers section,
i think that would work well as a defintion list

thanks
kevin 



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-16 Thread Ben Wong
On 3/17/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 thanks ben,
 ok maybe im overeacting a bit, it gets to me when i spend time doing
 something with css
 then it goes out the window for a table,

No, your not overreacting, I understanding that feeling.


 would you just use p's and h's instead of the definition list in the middle
 column body text?

Yeah, I would just use paragraph and header tags. Since it is just
generic text. If you don't use them there, where would you use them?
:)


 I dont know about using the table for the special offers section,
 i think that would work well as a defintion list

Definition list seems a bit much for me. Maybe an unordered list.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**