Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

2009-08-22 Thread Mark Harris 

Bushidodeep wrote:

F,

As in the case of clients that rigidly adhere to the notion of pixel 
perfection,
the design usually spirals into perfection on a single user-agent, with 
complete

disregard of the possible thousands in circulation.

The jobs description just seemed one to avoid.


I agree with you (though Rimantas is, as usual, technically correct - it 
CAN be achieved, but it's more work than it needs to be) and when I get 
asked for something like that I usually discuss it for a while, to see 
if they can be persuaded, then advise them to get another web-monkey 
who'll work their butt off for the minimal amount the client wants to 
pay. After 14 years at this game, I've decided that stuff just is not 
worth the effort it takes.


~mark


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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

2009-08-22 Thread Alistair Burrowes 
The acid 3 test is a test of browsers support for certain standards and as
far I can tell unrelated to the standards compliant html/css being referred
to in the job ad.
I however tend to agree. Standards compliant html/css is another way of
saying html/css that is valid and doesn't violate currently accepted
standards on the web. You can use valid html/css and purely markup up the
data with html and display that data how you want with css, and still go for
a pixel for pixel reproduction of a mockup. True it is easier to to with
tables, but it can done with CSS.

If standards compliant also meant accessible, then I think it would be a
pretty ridiculous statement since the idea of accessibility is to allow the
user agent to determine how to best provide the information to the user, for
example with big font sizes. However, I think standards compliant doesn't
implicitly also mean accessible.



2009/8/23 Bushidodeep 

> F,
>
> As in the case of clients that rigidly adhere to the notion of pixel
> perfection,
> the design usually spirals into perfection on a single user-agent, with
> complete
> disregard of the possible thousands in circulation.
>
> The jobs description just seemed one to avoid.
>
>
> C
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 22, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
>
>  On 2009/08/23 00:02 (GMT+0300) Rimantas Liubertas composed:
>>
>>  ...in most cases this requirement does not make any
>>> sense. On the other hand, it is not that hard to achieve as some may
>>> claim.
>>>
>>
>> Achieving px perfection on a designer's machine isn't so hard, but
>> maintaining it on all visitor's machines is impossible. None do well when
>> encountering the minimum font size or text zoom defenses too often
>> required
>> to use them. If existed web standards of politeness or user friendliness,
>> such designs could never meet them.
>> --
>> How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose
>> understanding rather than silver. Proverbs 16:16 NKJV
>>
>> Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>>
>> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

2009-08-22 Thread Bushidodeep 

F,

As in the case of clients that rigidly adhere to the notion of pixel  
perfection,
the design usually spirals into perfection on a single user-agent,  
with complete

disregard of the possible thousands in circulation.

The jobs description just seemed one to avoid.


C




On Aug 22, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Felix Miata wrote:


On 2009/08/23 00:02 (GMT+0300) Rimantas Liubertas composed:


...in most cases this requirement does not make any
sense. On the other hand, it is not that hard to achieve as some may
claim.


Achieving px perfection on a designer's machine isn't so hard, but
maintaining it on all visitor's machines is impossible. None do well  
when
encountering the minimum font size or text zoom defenses too often  
required
to use them. If existed web standards of politeness or user  
friendliness,

such designs could never meet them.
--
How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose
understanding rather than silver. Proverbs 16:16 NKJV

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

2009-08-22 Thread Felix Miata 
On 2009/08/23 00:02 (GMT+0300) Rimantas Liubertas composed:

> ...in most cases this requirement does not make any
> sense. On the other hand, it is not that hard to achieve as some may
> claim.

Achieving px perfection on a designer's machine isn't so hard, but
maintaining it on all visitor's machines is impossible. None do well when
encountering the minimum font size or text zoom defenses too often required
to use them. If existed web standards of politeness or user friendliness,
such designs could never meet them.
-- 
How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose
understanding rather than silver. Proverbs 16:16 NKJV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

2009-08-22 Thread Bushidodeep 

R,

It seems we've arrived at another topic
exposing the youth of both the web
and Web Standards.

The exchange is rich food for
thought, and inspiration for research.

Many Thanks,
C






On Aug 22, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:


Hi,
I've sided with the following camps regarding the notion of
pixel perfect designs and standards, so my
interpretation of the job requirement left me
amused by the juxtaposition.

". And once we get over pixel perfect layouts (as a recovering  
pixel-nazi,
I know it is really, REALLY hard) our designs should look lovely in  
any

newer browser."

"Why websites look different in different browsers

(or why pixel-perfect design is not possible on the web)"




I still fail to see how this leads to "Pixel perfect and standards is
an oxymoron, complete opposed by goals and
the nature of the web."

Let me quote http://acid3.acidtests.org/ "To pass the test, a browser
must use its default settings, the animation has to be smooth, the
score has to end on 100/100, and the final page has to look exactly,
PIXEL FOR PIXEL, like this reference rendering." (caps are mine).
Toughest test to test standards compliance calling for pixel perfect
match hardly makes pixel perfection and web standards an oxymoron.

Though let me repeat: in most cases this requirement does not make any
sense. On the other hand, it is not that hard to achieve as some may
claim.


Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

2009-08-22 Thread Rimantas Liubertas 
> Hi,
> I've sided with the following camps regarding the notion of
> pixel perfect designs and standards, so my
> interpretation of the job requirement left me
> amused by the juxtaposition.
> 
> ". And once we get over pixel perfect layouts (as a recovering pixel-nazi,
> I know it is really, REALLY hard) our designs should look lovely in any
> newer browser."
> 
> "Why websites look different in different browsers
>
> (or why pixel-perfect design is not possible on the web)"
>
> 

I still fail to see how this leads to "Pixel perfect and standards is
an oxymoron, complete opposed by goals and
the nature of the web."

Let me quote http://acid3.acidtests.org/ "To pass the test, a browser
must use its default settings, the animation has to be smooth, the
score has to end on 100/100, and the final page has to look exactly,
PIXEL FOR PIXEL, like this reference rendering." (caps are mine).
Toughest test to test standards compliance calling for pixel perfect
match hardly makes pixel perfection and web standards an oxymoron.

Though let me repeat: in most cases this requirement does not make any
sense. On the other hand, it is not that hard to achieve as some may
claim.


Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

2009-08-22 Thread Bushidodeep 

Hi,

I've sided with the following camps regarding the notion of
pixel perfect designs and standards, so my
interpretation of the job requirement left me
amused by the juxtaposition.



". And once we get over pixel perfect layouts (as a recovering pixel- 
nazi,
I know it is really, REALLY hard) our designs should look lovely in  
any newer browser."




"Why websites look different in different browsers
(or why pixel-perfect design is not possible on the web)"





On Aug 22, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:


Hi,
After peeping the following requirement in a job description,
 " looking for a Web Developer who can translate visual designs into
pixel-perfect, standards-compliant html/css pages"
a grin rivaling a James Bond villain curled the corners of my mouth.
Pixel perfect and standards is an oxymoron, complete opposed by  
goals and

the nature of the web.


No, it is not. The requirement itself may be not reasonable but it
does not contradict
web standards in any way.

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

2009-08-22 Thread Rimantas Liubertas 
> Hi,
> After peeping the following requirement in a job description,
>  " looking for a Web Developer who can translate visual designs into
> pixel-perfect, standards-compliant html/css pages"
> a grin rivaling a James Bond villain curled the corners of my mouth.
> Pixel perfect and standards is an oxymoron, complete opposed by goals and
> the nature of the web.

No, it is not. The requirement itself may be not reasonable but it
does not contradict
web standards in any way.

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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[WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

2009-08-22 Thread Bushidodeep 

Hi,

After peeping the following requirement in a job description,

 " looking for a Web Developer who can translate visual designs into  
pixel-perfect, standards-compliant html/​css pages"


a grin rivaling a James Bond villain curled the corners of my mouth.

Pixel perfect and standards is an oxymoron, complete opposed by goals  
and

the nature of the web.



C










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