Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics
Christian. Did you know most of your portfolio goes to a 404? On Jan 24 2008, at 16:06, Christian Snodgrass wrote: Hello, I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. Basically, I have a list like this: Something: blah blah; blah; blah. The Something: is a different font size, and kind of a header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with Something strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list. What do you think? Thanks. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics
Yes I do, it's not finished yet. Joe Ortenzi wrote: Christian. Did you know most of your portfolio goes to a 404? On Jan 24 2008, at 16:06, Christian Snodgrass wrote: Hello, I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. Basically, I have a list like this: Something: blah blah; blah; blah. The Something: is a different font size, and kind of a header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with Something strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list. What do you think? Thanks. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] A Question of Semantics
Hello, I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. Basically, I have a list like this: Something: blah blah; blah; blah. The Something: is a different font size, and kind of a header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with Something strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list. What do you think? Thanks. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics
The Something: is a different font size, and kind of a header for the list. It seems you answered your own question something should be a header (h.x tag) look at the footer on sites like linkedin.com - very common approach Neal Hello, I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. Basically, I have a list like this: I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with Something strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list. What do you think? Thanks. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] A Question of Semantics
Hi Christian Whether or not the 'Something' should be a heading depends on the content and function of the list. Quite often, the text preceding a list is a lead-in sentence e.g. While on leave I will: - make curtains - get daughter organised for school - relax (hah!). I would mark the lead-in as a para rather than a heading, the rest as items in an unordered list. Elizabeth www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Snodgrass Sent: Friday, 25 January 2008 3:07 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] A Question of Semantics Hello, I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. Basically, I have a list like this: Something: blah blah; blah; blah. The Something: is a different font size, and kind of a header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with Something strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list. What do you think? Thanks. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics
Christian Snodgrass wrote: I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. Basically, I have a list like this: Something: blah blah; blah; blah. The Something: is a different font size, and kind of a header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with Something strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list. It sounds like a good candidate for a definition list, but without more details, I can't say for sure. Basically, the DD's should describe their DT's. That said, you can take the meaning of describe very loosely. A classic example from the specs is dialog. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics
Mordechai Peller wrote: Christian Snodgrass wrote: I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. Basically, I have a list like this: Something: blah blah; blah; blah. The Something: is a different font size, and kind of a header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with Something strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list. It sounds like a good candidate for a definition list, but without more details, I can't say for sure. Basically, the DD's should describe their DT's. That said, you can take the meaning of describe very loosely. A classic example from the specs is dialog. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Specially, there are 4 sections: System Requirements, Issue, Cause, and Resolution (this is for a computer-related knowledge base). System Requirements is a semi-colon seperated list of system requirements (such as Operating System: Windows XP; Computer Brand: Dell), Issue, Cause, and Resolution are a block of text (sometimes multiple paragraphs) that describe and the problem and solution. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
Hi gang! You all must have heard my head banging over the last couple of days! The semantic form that I got from Patrick works great when it's got room, the problem is, I don't have that much room. This is a small 200px wide quick search form that needs a bit of padding. If you add divs to the input fields, won't that effect the fieldset? Or am I missing something here? I've been avoiding this form thing like the plague, but I've got no choice now...gotta get it done. Wayne ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
div's have no inherent dimensions and can be enclosed by fieldsets. Terrence Wood. Wayne Godfrey wrote: If you add divs to the input fields, won't that effect the fieldset? Or am I missing something here? I've been avoiding this form thing like the plague, but I've got no choice now...gotta get it done. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:12:57 +, Patrick H. Lauke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The most correct way (tm):
form action=... method=...
fieldset
legendSearch Club Listings/legend
label for=nameName of club/label
input type=text name=name id=name /
label for=stateState/label
select name=state id=state
option value=../option
/select
input type=submit value=List /
/fieldset
/form
What about br /s to seperate the form elements when CSS isn't
present? View that form in anything other than a CSS capable browser
and usibility goes right out the window...
That way you can still use display:block; for any elements you want
seperate, and form br {display:none;} to hide the breaks when they
aren't needed.
Andrew.
http://leftjustified.net/
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:35:26 +1000, Andrew Krespanis wrote:
What about br /s to seperate the form elements when CSS isn't
present? View that form in anything other than a CSS capable browser
and usibility goes right out the window...
That way you can still use display:block; for any elements you want
seperate, and form br {display:none;} to hide the breaks when they
aren't needed.
Hmmm... its a good point, but I don't like the solution (from a
semantically pure point of view - might do that in real life ;)).
I think I'd go back to wrapping the label-input combo in a div.
BTW, I'm pleased to announce that Andrew has agreed to do the
presentation for the next WSG meeting in Brisbane - nananana everyone
who is interstate or overseas ;)
Brisvegas residents - mark February 9 in your diary!
;)
Lea
--
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
You could even think about a DL for simple forms. Using the label in the DT tag and the input into the DD. Gives you the hooks for styling, and readable in a non css browser. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
text-only and v4 browsers lack support for fieldsets, so one is really stuck with using br / as the the leanest code solution. Terrence Wood. Patrick H. Lauke wrote: a slippery slope, in my opinion...starting to add what is, in this case, visual markup to compensate for lack of CSS... i usually only worry about accessibility in cases where CSS is not available, but i do take your point on usability. if i absolutely had to cater for non-CSS browsers this way, i guess i would wrap each label/control pair in their own fieldset to keep it non-presentational (although that leads to drastic code bloat) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] A question of semantics
Help!! I am in the process of building what amounts to a search form that will extract a club listing from my database. Before I start the building process, I'd like to know what would be considered the most semantically correct way of doing it. The form will display a club listing by state via a pull-down menu or text input and has the following fields: Title: Search Club Listings Text input field for club name search Pull-down menu of states search List button (submit) I tried to followed last week's discussion on the semantics of tables, etc. in forms hoping it would give me some insight, but I think I got too lost in semantics to fully understand. Should this be a table, a DL or is there some other, better way to accomplish this input form? I want it right the first time, since there are other input forms that will use this general application elsewhere on the site as well. Any help will be greatly appreciated Wayne ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
Wayne Godfrey wrote:
what would be considered the most semantically
correct way of doing it.
The most correct way (tm):
form action=... method=...
fieldset
legendSearch Club Listings/legend
label for=nameName of club/label
input type=text name=name id=name /
label for=stateState/label
select name=state id=state
option value=../option
/select
input type=submit value=List /
/fieldset
/form
and have a something like
label,input,select { display: block; }
so that each label and input is on a new line.
The reason for people wanting to use tables, definition lists, or
similar constructs for forms stems purely from their desire to style it
a certain way...but the above is the bare minimum, cleanest way, imho.
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:12:57 +, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: input type=submit value=List / /fieldset Would you include the submit button in the fieldset by default? I had been assuming that, semantically, it sat outside the fieldset(s). curious, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
Lea de Groot wrote: Would you include the submit button in the fieldset by default? I had been assuming that, semantically, it sat outside the fieldset(s). purely from a technical point of view, if you wanted the submit button outside of the fieldset, you'd have to put another block level element (fieldset seems the best, imho, but even a neutral div would do) around the content of the form to validate as xhtml strict. form... fieldset fieldset ... /fieldset input type=submit value=List / /fieldset /form from a semantic point of view, fieldset groups related form elements together. i don't see why the submit button would not be in relation to the other elements...if anything, the submit button is the one element that relates to everything else in the form, as it's the one element that sends all that stuff out. however, if i had more than one fieldset (e.g. many sub-sections within the form), i would not have the submit as an element of the last fieldset, but outside, and wrap everything in another fieldset as mentioned above, i.e. form fieldset fieldset ... /fieldset fieldset ... /fieldset input type=submit value=go / /fieldset /form hope that makes sense... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
The simplicity of it all. Thanks Patrick, I doubt that I would have ever come up with this solution, which is why I posed the question in the first place!! Forms are mysterious creatures to meThanks again. wayne ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:52:16 +, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: if i had more than one fieldset (e.g. many sub-sections within the form), i would not have the submit as an element of the last fieldset, but outside, and wrap everything in another fieldset as mentioned above Hmmm, interesting. I've been trying different tag structures with forms recently, but haven't been happy with the semanticness (its a word if I use it as one ;)) of anything I've done. Simply stripping it back to bare bones and using css to make the display block level hadn't occurred to me (Doh!). It feels like overkill to wrap all the fieldsets in another fieldset, simply to include the submit button in a fieldset, but I think thats simply unfamiliarity. I do think that the submit button relates to the other fields as a group, rather than individually, so even for one fieldset, logically we should put the overkill solution of: form fieldset fieldset ... /fieldset input type=submit value=go / /fieldset /form Yuk! Thanks :) Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
