Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
As i remember alt was short for alternative text, to describe images in a website. It is als yuseful for Search ENgine Optimization as its visible for them to also relate them to content, titles and other components of the page. Michael kate wrote: The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the attribute tag. Kate - Original Message - From: Andrew Freedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM: Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Hi Tom, I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever reason) and the title is the title of the image. An example would be alt=Customer Care Logo title=We Care about you However as I am always learning I may learn something here today. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1468 - Release Date: 5/26/2008 3:23 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Michael Persson front-end developer seo *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
So what's the general consensus on the use of null or empty alt strings as per the reasons outlined in the article below? http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/accessible_alternatives.html Lisa Kerrigan Website Editor www.business.vic.gov.au Department Innovation, Industry and Regional Development Level 31, 121 Exhibition St Melbourne Vic 3000 Tel: 03 9651-9176 Fax: 03 9651-9988 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: To [EMAIL PROTECTED] wsg@webstandardsgroup.org sgroup.org cc Subject 28/05/2008 04:53 Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title PMAttribute Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] roup.org As i remember alt was short for alternative text, to describe images in a website. It is als yuseful for Search ENgine Optimization as its visible for them to also relate them to content, titles and other components of the page. Michael kate wrote: The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the attribute tag. Kate - Original Message - From: Andrew Freedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM: Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Hi Tom, I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever reason) and the title is the title of the image. An example would be alt=Customer Care Logo title=We Care about you However as I am always learning I may learn something here today. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1468 - Release Date: 5/26/2008 3:23 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Michael Persson front-end developer seo *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development, Government of Victoria, Victoria, Australia. This e-mail and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not distribute reproduce this e-mail or the attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by return e-mail. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
As i remember alt was short for alternative text, to describe images in a website. It is als yuseful for Search ENgine Optimization as its visible for them to also relate them to content, titles and other components of the page. text-only browsers display it. ... It's text for people who can't see the image. keep that in mind! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what's the general consensus on the use of null or empty alt strings as per the reasons outlined in the article below? http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/accessible_alternatives.html The choice between alt-text or no alt-text depends entirely on whether an alt-text contributes something meaningful to the document, or not. This often makes it hard for authors to decide what's best to add or leave out, since most of us can't/won't read our documents as text-only. Even if we do, we will still have the images fresh on our minds, which affects our ability to make wise decisions. Basically: If nothing gets lost when an image cannot be appreciated visually, then its alt-text can be left out. If something/anything important _do_ get lost, one should use the alt-text to restore the meaning of the document in a no-images, text-only situation to as high a level as possible - without cluttering it. My own interpretation of the issue is presented in some length here... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_24.html ...but whether or not that constitutes any level of consensus amongst authors/designers is a big unknown. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
So what's the general consensus on the use of null or empty alt strings as per the reasons outlined in the article below? http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/accessible_alternatives.html I don't see the point of the null alt strings. A validator is a tool to help you ... its not the be all and end all - you need to interpret the results with a bit of common sense. It seems rather pointless and silly to just try to fool the validator. suggestion: lynx (a free text-only browser) will probably help you a lot more for deciding how and where to use alt text ... can you use the page? ... does what you see make sense? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
On 28 May 2008, at 09:50, Michael MD wrote: I don't see the point of the null alt strings. A validator is a tool to help you ... its not the be all and end all - you need to interpret the results with a bit of common sense. It seems rather pointless and silly to just try to fool the validator. Null alt strings are not an attempt to fool the validator (well, they don't have to be). They are a way of explicitly saying There is no alternative for this image, it is just decorative or is repeating information that appears in the main body of text. suggestion: lynx (a free text-only browser) will probably help you a lot more for deciding how and where to use alt text ... This is a good approach. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Ted Drake wrote: Sorry but on hover, IE6 will show this is a dog and other browsers will show oh no it isn't -Original Message- Just to confuse the issue, as well as clarify it, this example: img src=../../sitegraphics/dogandlead.gif alt=this is a dog / WILL show the message 'this is a dog' when hovered in IE, even when the image is present, whereas this one: img src=../../sitegraphics/dogandlead.gif alt=this is a dog title=oh no it isn't!/ Will show oh no it isn't! on hover in all browsers (well, common ones anyway) and only display the alt content when the image is missing. IN other words, title takes preference over alt, so far as display on hover is concerned. That means (to me) that it's safer to do both. Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** I'm getting confused now - on MY IE6, the title is displayed on hover, not the alt. I was originally testing with my standalone IE6, so I checked on my laptop, (with 'real' IE6) and got the same result! Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Sorry but on hover, IE6 will show this is a dog and other browsers will show oh no it isn't If your tooltips are really that critical, use the YUI tooltip javascript to get cross-browser compatibility to display the title attribute. You can also style them. http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/container/tooltip/ You really shouldn't depend on tooltips for content. Think of them as an added element on objects whose purpose or action is not immediately obvious. Here's a better usage to let users know they are leaving your site. It's not the only way of doing this, but an example. a href=http://paris.org; title=this will take you to the Paris.org web siteimg src=paris.jpg alt=city of paris//a Ted -Original Message- Jason Ray wrote: The information in the alt attribute will only display when the image is not available - [snip] The information in the title attribute will display when the pointer hovers over the object or image. Just to confuse the issue, as well as clarify it, this example: img src=../../sitegraphics/dogandlead.gif alt=this is a dog / WILL show the message 'this is a dog' when hovered in IE, even when the image is present, whereas this one: img src=../../sitegraphics/dogandlead.gif alt=this is a dog title=oh no it isn't!/ Will show oh no it isn't! on hover in all browsers (well, common ones anyway) and only display the alt content when the image is missing. IN other words, title takes preference over alt, so far as display on hover is concerned. That means (to me) that it's safer to do both. Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
On 28 May 2008, at 11:31, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Me too. IE/win shows title-text on images when such exists, otherwise it shows the alt-text if such exists. For this reason I quite often use a null-value title attribute alongside filled-in alt text, simply because I don't *want* tooltips in my pages. This means that the alt text is there for those who need/ want it, but image-savvy users aren't pestered by yellow text boxes popping up every time they happen to mouse over an image. Is this (eg: img src=bb.jpg alt=Big Ben clocktower in London title= / something that the panel would condone or condemn? -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Jason Ray wrote: The information in the alt attribute will only display when the image is not available - [snip] The information in the title attribute will display when the pointer hovers over the object or image. Just to confuse the issue, as well as clarify it, this example: img src=../../sitegraphics/dogandlead.gif alt=this is a dog / WILL show the message 'this is a dog' when hovered in IE, even when the image is present, whereas this one: img src=../../sitegraphics/dogandlead.gif alt=this is a dog title=oh no it isn't!/ Will show oh no it isn't! on hover in all browsers (well, common ones anyway) and only display the alt content when the image is missing. IN other words, title takes preference over alt, so far as display on hover is concerned. That means (to me) that it's safer to do both. Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Designer wrote: I'm getting confused now - on MY IE6, the title is displayed on hover, not the alt. I was originally testing with my standalone IE6, so I checked on my laptop, (with 'real' IE6) and got the same result! Me too. IE/win shows title-text on images when such exists, otherwise it shows the alt-text if such exists. The most problematic with IE6' behavior comes when title is used on an anchor containing an image with alt-text - with or without a title. IE tends to show the image-title/image-alt while (at least most) other browsers show only the anchor-title, (if I remember my last battle with that correctly). Changes in default-behavior announced for IE8, IIRC. Probably more confusing than ever. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Seems like a good idea, any implications? 2008/5/28 Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 28 May 2008, at 11:31, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Me too. IE/win shows title-text on images when such exists, otherwise it shows the alt-text if such exists. For this reason I quite often use a null-value title attribute alongside filled-in alt text, simply because I don't *want* tooltips in my pages. This means that the alt text is there for those who need/want it, but image-savvy users aren't pestered by yellow text boxes popping up every time they happen to mouse over an image. Is this (eg: img src=bb.jpg alt=Big Ben clocktower in London title= / something that the panel would condone or condemn? -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
There is the argument that you are changing the behaviour of IE, however wrong it is, it could be what users expect. I believe Jaws ignores empty attributes so all good there ... 2008/5/28 Darren West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Seems like a good idea, any implications? 2008/5/28 Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 28 May 2008, at 11:31, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Me too. IE/win shows title-text on images when such exists, otherwise it shows the alt-text if such exists. For this reason I quite often use a null-value title attribute alongside filled-in alt text, simply because I don't *want* tooltips in my pages. This means that the alt text is there for those who need/want it, but image-savvy users aren't pestered by yellow text boxes popping up every time they happen to mouse over an image. Is this (eg: img src=bb.jpg alt=Big Ben clocktower in London title= / something that the panel would condone or condemn? -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Rick Lecoat wrote: I agree that that's an argument. But the counter-argument, to my mind, is that I'm *correcting* the behaviour of IE through markup and css (well, ok, not css in this case) to bring it into line with standards compliant browsers, which is what we, ad web designers/developers regularly do when working around the old IE box model, etc. I agree. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
On 28 May 2008, at 12:53, Darren West wrote: There is the argument that you are changing the behaviour of IE, however wrong it is, it could be what users expect. I agree that that's an argument. But the counter-argument, to my mind, is that I'm *correcting* the behaviour of IE through markup and css (well, ok, not css in this case) to bring it into line with standards compliant browsers, which is what we, ad web designers/developers regularly do when working around the old IE box model, etc. I don't want my alt text showing up as tooltips in IE, period, so tweaking the markup to correct IE's implementation would appear to be the logical choice, especially since it does not break the semantics of the page. On the other hand, I would be interested to hear of any problems that my method creates for screen readers. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Rick, what email client are you using? how do you get the 'on 28 may darren wrote ...' and the border-left on the quote? Cheers Darren 2008/5/28 Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 28 May 2008, at 12:53, Darren West wrote: There is the argument that you are changing the behaviour of IE, however wrong it is, it could be what users expect. I agree that that's an argument. But the counter-argument, to my mind, is that I'm *correcting* the behaviour of IE through markup and css (well, ok, not css in this case) to bring it into line with standards compliant browsers, which is what we, ad web designers/developers regularly do when working around the old IE box model, etc. I don't want my alt text showing up as tooltips in IE, period, so tweaking the markup to correct IE's implementation would appear to be the logical choice, especially since it does not break the semantics of the page. On the other hand, I would be interested to hear of any problems that my method creates for screen readers. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
On 28 May 2008, at 13:39, Darren West wrote: Rick, what email client are you using? how do you get the 'on 28 may darren wrote ...' and the border-left on the quote? Cheers Darren Drifting OT now, but it's plain old Apple Mail. The border-left, as you call it, is just Mail's way of indicating quoted material. If I remember correctly from many years bck, Eudora did it the ame ay, though personally I prefer the traditional carat (). Happy to chat about email clients but probably best to take it off- list, lest wrath be incurred. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Darren West wrote: There is the argument that you are changing the behaviour of IE, however wrong it is, it could be what users expect. I believe Jaws ignores empty attributes so all good there ... I do not think one should meddle with a browser's behavior in minor cases like showing alt-text as tool-tip by default. Nothing gets broken in most cases, and other browsers can show alt-text as tool-tip too - via an option or add-on. Only those cases where clearly a wrong and misguiding text pops up on :hover in IE, should any form of workarounds be applied ... IMO. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 27, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Andrew Freedman wrote: kate provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:21 AM: The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the attribute tag. Kate Patrick H. Lauke also provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:33 AM: or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people... That's all well and good and I for one thank you for clarifying that but how does that answer Tom's query? Andrew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Really! Is there anyone on this list who doesn't understand the distinction between 'tag' and 'attribute'. And does anyone seriously not understand what is meant when reference is made to the 'alt tag', or to HTML 'code' rather than 'markup'? I would certainly agree that in the context of a lecture on the subject these distinctions are important. But in the context of discussions on this list I think this is taking semantic hair-splitting to unwarranted extremes, especially if, as Andrew points out, it doesn't accompany some effort to respond to the question at hand. I move that henceforth it should be acceptable here to use 'tag' as shorthand for 'attribute' and 'code' for 'markup'. Andrew May I also note that in my original question, I never used the term 'alt tag' in the first place. Thanks to those with the helpful replies... -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
ahhh hahaha thats brilliant!! Tom said: How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? are you writing a book? 2008/5/28 Tom Livingston [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 27, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Andrew Freedman wrote: kate provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:21 AM: The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the attribute tag. Kate Patrick H. Lauke also provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:33 AM: or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people... That's all well and good and I for one thank you for clarifying that but how does that answer Tom's query? Andrew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Really! Is there anyone on this list who doesn't understand the distinction between 'tag' and 'attribute'. And does anyone seriously not understand what is meant when reference is made to the 'alt tag', or to HTML 'code' rather than 'markup'? I would certainly agree that in the context of a lecture on the subject these distinctions are important. But in the context of discussions on this list I think this is taking semantic hair-splitting to unwarranted extremes, especially if, as Andrew points out, it doesn't accompany some effort to respond to the question at hand. I move that henceforth it should be acceptable here to use 'tag' as shorthand for 'attribute' and 'code' for 'markup'. Andrew May I also note that in my original question, I never used the term 'alt tag' in the first place. Thanks to those with the helpful replies... -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
I don't see the point of the null alt strings. Consider e.g. sponsor images. You don't want to pollute your SEOed page with sponsor keywords, nor is it necessary from an accessibility point of view. Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Hello list, I know this might seem basic, and I searched, but came up confused... Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Thanks -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM: Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Hi Tom, I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever reason) and the title is the title of the image. An example would be alt=Customer Care Logo title=We Care about you However as I am always learning I may learn something here today. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the attribute tag. Kate - Original Message - From: Andrew Freedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM: Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Hi Tom, I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever reason) and the title is the title of the image. An example would be alt=Customer Care Logo title=We Care about you However as I am always learning I may learn something here today. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1468 - Release Date: 5/26/2008 3:23 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
kate wrote: The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the attribute tag. or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM: Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Hi Tom, This might be useful: The alt attribute must be specified for the IMG and AREA elements. It is optional for the INPUT and APPLET elements. It's taken directly from: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-alt Perhaps worth noting is that alt is short for alternative text. Literally, a text equivalent of the element. On 27 May 2008, at 20:10, Andrew Freedman wrote: I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever reason) and the title is the title of the image. An example would be alt=Customer Care Logo title=We Care about you If I read your right (assuming this hypothetical image actual has the text We Care About You embedded in it), the alt attribute value would be We Care about you and there would be no title. Regarding the title attribute: The title attribute may annotate any number of elements. Taken from: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-title How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? You can pretty much get all the information you need on any attribute from the recommendation: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html Hope that helps, Jon - http://jontangerine.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
On 5/27/08, Andrew Freedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Livingston provided the following information on 28/05/2008 3:26 AM: Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Hi Tom, I may be wrong here but I've always worked on the premise that alt is alternative text for when the image isn't available (For whatever reason) and the title is the title of the image. An example would be alt=Customer Care Logo title=We Care about you if the image takes you to another part of the web site or another place on the web, the title attribute would describe where you are going. dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
kate provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:21 AM: The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the attribute tag. Kate Patrick H. Lauke also provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:33 AM: or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people... That's all well and good and I for one thank you for clarifying that but how does that answer Tom's query? Andrew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
I'm not sure exactly what the spec says, go read it, but alt stands for alternative so the content would be represented alternatively when say the other content was unavailble. Where as title is meant to provide additional information related to the content such as a title. So img src=whatever.jpg alt=whatever title=a piss take / 2008/5/27 Tom Livingston [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello list, I know this might seem basic, and I searched, but came up confused... Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Thanks -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
Can anyone give me a clear example/explanation of the difference between the alt attribute and the title attribute? How about a real 'attributes for dummies' reference?? The difference seems very slight to me... Hi Tom, Try this link: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/the_alt_and_title_attributes/ Jeff *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
On May 27, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Andrew Freedman wrote: kate provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:21 AM: The alt tag which is'nt really the right discription is really called the attribute tag. Kate Patrick H. Lauke also provided the following information on 28/05/2008 5:33 AM: or...the alt attribute, if you want to correct people... That's all well and good and I for one thank you for clarifying that but how does that answer Tom's query? Andrew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Really! Is there anyone on this list who doesn't understand the distinction between 'tag' and 'attribute'. And does anyone seriously not understand what is meant when reference is made to the 'alt tag', or to HTML 'code' rather than 'markup'? I would certainly agree that in the context of a lecture on the subject these distinctions are important. But in the context of discussions on this list I think this is taking semantic hair- splitting to unwarranted extremes, especially if, as Andrew points out, it doesn't accompany some effort to respond to the question at hand. I move that henceforth it should be acceptable here to use 'tag' as shorthand for 'attribute' and 'code' for 'markup'. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
On 5/27/08, Jason Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The alt attribute should always be included in order to be standards compliant, and accessible the title is optional. some accessibility software i use says it's a good idea to use a title for accessibility reasons. the software is adesigner by ibm. dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
hmm... is accessibility not a feature of standards compliance? I'm forgetting whether the W3C HTML validator will reject img elements without the alt attribute, or if it's just the accessibility validators that do so. Jason On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:55 AM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/27/08, Jason Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The alt attribute should always be included in order to be standards compliant, and accessible the title is optional. some accessibility software i use says it's a good idea to use a title for accessibility reasons. the software is adesigner by ibm. dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Alt versus Title Attribute
accessibility validators will let you know if you missed an alt attribute and will suggest adding titles where there are either sketchy titles or no titles at all. dwain On 5/27/08, Jason Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hmm... is accessibility not a feature of standards compliance? I'm forgetting whether the W3C HTML validator will reject img elements without the alt attribute, or if it's just the accessibility validators that do so. Jason On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:55 AM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/27/08, Jason Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The alt attribute should always be included in order to be standards compliant, and accessible the title is optional. some accessibility software i use says it's a good idea to use a title for accessibility reasons. the software is adesigner by ibm. dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***