[WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
Here's an interesting article on the implications for a web development shop on using web standards for development rather than the antique table-based methods we all used to use. This author compares the time taken to develop a site then and now, after changing to using standards. If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives/web_standards_roi.php Some people are interested in accessibility issues. Others are interested in standards. Others are interested in faster sites. But if I said I have a revolutionary technique that will reduce the time and therefore the cost of building a web site to a THIRD of what it probably takes now, you'd be interested. If you thought this claim had any credibility you'd be very interested indeed or you wouldn't deserve to be in business. Here's someone else corroborating what I've been saying for months now. http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives/web_standards_roi.php Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. and MACCAWS ( www.MACCAWS.org ) doesnt do this? Camz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
t94xr.net.nz webmaster wrote: If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. and MACCAWS ( www.MACCAWS.org ) doesnt do this? Not the same way. maccaws' argument is an intellectual argument, while Robinson's is an emotional one. While maccaws' the better argument, in this generation of 30 second attention spans (if that long), Robinson's has a better chance of working. Ultimately the best argument is the result of a combination of both.
RE: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
I don't know I've never read it. You go to Maccaws.org and you have to go off to another link to read anything useful. Like the old days of the portals. No one had any content, only links to more sites that are themselves just pages of more links. I can't be bothered going from link to link to link to link to find something worth reading. If a poster cant be bothered putting a link to actual content, why should I have to bother? Why would I have to hunt out what on earth Maccaws.org means in order to find out if I want to read it or not. If you see my post about the other article, you'll see in my post why I think it's worth reading. You don't have to go any further to decide if you want to follow it up yourself. Maccaws.org tells me nothing except that it's perhaps a site about South American parrots. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of t94xr.net.nz webmaster Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. and MACCAWS ( www.MACCAWS.org ) doesnt do this? Camz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
I found it quite a good read... - Original Message - From: Mordechai Peller To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. t94xr.net.nz webmaster wrote: If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. and MACCAWS ( www.MACCAWS.org ) doesnt do this? Not the same way. maccaws' argument is an intellectual argument, while Robinson's is an emotional one. While maccaws' the better argument, in this generation of 30 second attention spans (if that long), Robinson's has a better chance of working.Ultimately the best argument is the result of a combination of both.
RE: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
I've since taken a quick look at macaws.org and at a cursory speed-scan there doesn't seem to be anything in that article called What Every Web Site Owner Should Know About Standards: A Web Standards Primer at http://www.maccaws.org/kit/primer/ that has anything about the business reasons for a web development shop why they should bother to learn it. The article I'm referring to in this thread is about the business reasons why web developers ought to be learning these things - namely that you can produce sites in half the time or less. And maintain them in the future with far fewer man-hours. And the are numbers to back it up. Maccaws.org doesn't seem to have any reference to the business of web development. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of t94xr.net.nz webmaster Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. and MACCAWS ( www.MACCAWS.org ) doesnt do this? Camz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
their site is what you call a white paper its like a government report but on the net. Governments around the world have read it. Its fairly simple ot navigate. - Original Message - From: Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. I don't know I've never read it. You go to Maccaws.org and you have to go off to another link to read anything useful. Like the old days of the portals. No one had any content, only links to more sites that are themselves just pages of more links. I can't be bothered going from link to link to link to link to find something worth reading. If a poster cant be bothered putting a link to actual content, why should I have to bother? Why would I have to hunt out what on earth Maccaws.org means in order to find out if I want to read it or not. If you see my post about the other article, you'll see in my post why I think it's worth reading. You don't have to go any further to decide if you want to follow it up yourself. Maccaws.org tells me nothing except that it's perhaps a site about South American parrots. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of t94xr.net.nz webmaster Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. and MACCAWS ( www.MACCAWS.org ) doesnt do this? Camz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
Hi, new to the list but I couldn't resist this one as I have seen this first hand... The fact it takes less time and saves the client money could be the reason many designers don't want to leave tables behind. Think about the money a shop would lose? They would have to get more clients and improve overall. Its not right, but I have argued with many designers that have said 'standards compliance will cost more.' I wish I could charge $100 an hour.. Stupid salary :( Jesse On 6/2/04 9:36 PM, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The article I'm referring to in this thread is about the business reasons why web developers ought to be learning these things - namely that you can produce sites in half the time or less. And maintain them in the future with far fewer man-hours. And the are numbers to back it up. Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
Jesse you are obviously not a business owner or a general manager. And if you are, you're not thinking like a business owner. If you can produce work far faster now than you could before, you can charge less. But that's only one of your options. You charge less if you need a competitive advantage. On the other hand you might want charge the same amount for the site, and keep the additional profit. It's what happens when business reduce costs without reducing output. It's called improving productivity. In this case you'd be getting twice as much from your developers, without having to stand behind them with a whip. Or you can pass some of the saving on to the clients and keep some yourself. There are a lot of options. The point is, when you can produce anything faster, cheaper and better, you are improving your business and you have choices. SO far most of the standards discussion has been about the 'better' part - producing better web sites - and that's very important. But here's an article that describes how using standards lets you produce sites faster and cheaper as well. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J Rodgers Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 12:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. Hi, new to the list but I couldn't resist this one as I have seen this first hand... The fact it takes less time and saves the client money could be the reason many designers don't want to leave tables behind. Think about the money a shop would lose? They would have to get more clients and improve overall. Its not right, but I have argued with many designers that have said 'standards compliance will cost more.' I wish I could charge $100 an hour.. Stupid salary :( Jesse * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
Actually I was thinking like the consultant that tried to pull the 'standards cost more' argument with two non-profits I do volunteer work for. The article you link to shows exactly what I have been saying for a long time.. I think scarcasm was lost in my post. Moving to XHTML/CSS will save me and my team a load of time and make life easier.. Saves me loads of time daily with small projects. Jesse On 6/2/04 10:40 PM, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesse you are obviously not a business owner or a general manager. And if you are, you're not thinking like a business owner. Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
You're right, the sarcasm was lost on me. My bad. Sorry. Cheers Mike Kear -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J Rodgers Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 1:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. Actually I was thinking like the consultant that tried to pull the 'standards cost more' argument with two non-profits I do volunteer work for. The article you link to shows exactly what I have been saying for a long time.. I think scarcasm was lost in my post. Moving to XHTML/CSS will save me and my team a load of time and make life easier.. Saves me loads of time daily with small projects. Jesse * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
